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Narratives and Belief Systems

Post  BallinD on Mon Jan 22, 2018 3:23 pm

As the world turns, and five losses pile up, helping to clear the fairy dust from the eyes of scribes, pundits, fans and probably Piston players, and possibly, Piston Coaches, the question remains: What To Do? Shocked

I think I have hammered at the idea that SVG obfuscates (talks out of both sides of his mouth) to cover his confusion, and abysmal performance.  He doesn't motivate, he deflates. He is the "fat fairy" spreading his fairy dust around to slappies (best interview, great quips, honest, good coach, harsh taskmaster, stubborn but fair)

But maybe, just maybe, the wheels have come off his narrative that they simply don't defend hard enough, so that is why they lose.  Good coach harsh task master, stubborn but fair, goes the narrative about SVG, but while he bloviates about defense, is that a cover for an addled, fearful, panic junkie mindset that simply will not allow him to see clearly and coach effectively.  And that his offense is a mess! The King has no clothes on. Who will see it and say it? facepalm  facepalm

That may be changing.  The dust may be coming out of his eyes and maybe even he can begin to see that he is the problem here?

According to Pistons,com; Langlois:
 DETROIT – "Amid the depths of a five-game losing streak that’s dragged the Pistons below .500 for the first time all season, it’s easy to spot what’s wrong: offense."

For Langlois to write that means at long last the official narrative has changed.  Kennard's emergence has embarrassed him a little and that's a problem?!?! Perhaps part of the problem is that it is possible that with Avery in a prolonged slump and has become a chucker (KCP clone) he fears to address the problem that his rookie shooting guard may soon be -- if not now -- outperforming his veteran who is playing poorly under Stupid Van Gundy for his next NBA contract as an unrestricted free agent.

The headline presents this as a problem for SVG to solve, a risk:  "As Pistons offense sputters, does SVG risk the chemistry of Johnson-Kennard?"

Groundhogs Day here again: Stankey has emerged aggressively barking and attacking like the Junk Yard Dog once again, but this time it seems he has more confidence and is hitting shots, and loves playing with Kennard, who is already probably our BEST PLAYMAKER.

I would love to see the young synergy of those two grow up together, partly because I want to believe that Stankey can become Stanley (the self-proclaimed best player in his draft class).  The eye test says they have synnergy and impact the game in different ways, but in complementary ways, offensive power/ defensive power.  

I've probably been Stankey's biggest critic on this forum from day one, when it became apparent the kid could barely ever complete a freaking layup in traffic in the NBA, had no hops, no handle, NO SHOT, but did have an amazingly chiseled, muscular body that led all the slappies to default to "Man-Crush" mode and declare he was athletic, young and showed he could handle Lebron.  False, but you guys know what I mean.  What he is though, is a pretty good defender and a decent secondary playmaker.  Key Word Is Playmaker.

I have long maintained that what we really need is more playmakers, players who can unselfishly handle the rock,  see the floor, make the right reads and shoot or pass as needed out of fast-moving fluid offensive sets.  I am willing to see if SJ can grow into that role and with Kennard and Ellensen, lead the charge.  It will take years and some trades (Weggie, Leuer, Bradley), but it is the only way out.

I was probably one of the first to champion Kennard, even before we drafted him. as That Guy, because despite moderate athleticism compared to say Donovan Mitchel, he is a baller of the first order, much more than simply a shooter, because he is poised, unselfish, can shoot the rock and can break it down off the dribble for himself or others.  He is crafty.  Some say his future comp is Ginobli or Chris Mullins, and that is what I see in him, even some young, Larry Bird in a smaller frame.  

I see Bullock as a guy who needs more shots.  He is our most efficient shooter, but routinely goes 3-5, 1-2 from three, and that is in games where Tobias goes something like 6-17, and Bradley goes 5-19.  Why not conscientiously get this guy more shots, just a few of those attempts for Bradley (chucker) and Tobias (chucker).  SVG has no idea how to build a real team of complimentary pieces.  

The ugly stupidity of his handling of Boban rankles because Old Yeller (SVG) quacks like a dog here and clearly, stubbornly refuses to play this amazingly gifted player who the fans love, the players love and advanced statistics love.  Unleash Boban and I bet we start to see attendance rise. Play SJ and Kennard together for longer stretches and I bet attendance will rise.  Develop a synergy there and attendance will rise.  

It is a Bitches Brew that Old Yeller has to navigate, and while there are risks, the rewards are to have a real team, not a bunch of middling players trying mightily to elevate their game at the expense of team ball.  That could be the new narrative, to have a real team in the Bad Boys tradition as WTF stated so clearly.  

That's enough philosophizing for today.  Sorry for the long post!  Go Pistons, death to the Pusstons!  lol lol
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Good article with details on how and why Kennard and Johnson have the right chemistry

Post  cool breeze on Mon Jan 22, 2018 2:28 pm

Johnson provided the details on why he and Kennard are more successful when playing together. One has to wonder if SVG and his assistant coaches recognized those details at all. Both Kennard and Johnson have high basketball IQs. Both know what will work well and what won't work. Does this coaching staff or either Smith or Jackson ever think like Johnson and Kennard do? Those comments by Johnson could have been something Zeke would have said in his day as a player. The difference is that Zeke was the Pistons point guard and team leader. We have leaders on this team who do not know that they don't know but they think they know. This mindless running around in and out of the paint in an effort to create by point guards should only be used in desperation instead of making it the norm and thus causing great dysfunction. Kennard can feed off of the skill set of Johnson and vise versa. They are both thinking 2 or 3 plays ahead while the point guards only have the ability to think one play ahead and that play is unknown to them until they start the dribbling and probing process. Harris gets the ball where he doesn't want to shoot it. Nobody who tries to set screens and move without the ball has any impact. Meanwhile, the coaching staff gets off on their on ball point guard creators. Nero fiddles while Rome burns. The fans try to keep their eyes open to fight the boredom. Detroit Piston fans are not stupid. We want smart players especially those who play point guard. We are recognizing that the coaches do not have very good judgment as to what is needed out of our point guards to have a successful team. Our coaches are looking for the point guards with the wrong skill set. They are content to sign point guards who pose a liability for the team on defense while dominating and causing dysfunction on offense. Their point guards do not know the strengths or weaknesses of their teammates. There seems to be no consideration by the point guards at all that part of their job is to make their teammates better on both defense and offense. It is all about how well will they play from game to game instead of how well they can make their teammates play the game of basketball. This is first level play that our coaches either do not know or have forgotten.

Our coaches must wonder when AD will ever box out on the defensive glass in crunch time. It seems to never enter his mind. He thinks that he can just stand and get those rebounds when the game is on the line. LaVert out smarted him this time but it seems that players on every team are crashing the offensive glass hard in crunch time these days knowing they have a great shot to get the winning put back over or around AD. But great shot by AD in the closing seconds was terrific. He showed great heart and determination to score the ball when it mattered. Maybe it will take a little longer before everything clicks for AD and he can be above average in every category. He is above average in some so for sure he is not the worst player on the team. We just need him to be the best center in the league to get the Pistons out of this mess.

It takes time for a young team to learn how to win. But the fans must see great effort to keep their attention. Young players like Ronde Hollis Jefferson gave more effort and showed me that he has put in some extensive work to improve his offense in the off season. As a college player Jefferson was an amazing defender and high energy type player. But he couldn't make a shot beyond 3 feet from the basket. His jumps shot was very primitive. Jefferson is a winner. He and Dinwiddie can give Nets fans something to be hopeful for and show up for their home games. Both players can defend multiple positions and will only get better on offense. Great job by their head coach and Nets management to identify winning type players that fans can actually like. One has to wonder how much further along Johnson and Ellenson might be if they were playing with the Nets. Just how is that fast paced out of control dribble happy point guard domination of the offense working off SVG? Are you loving it? And how is the use of weak defenders occupying the point guard position working out? It is hard to play fast after made baskets. When the shots are not falling by the players the coach counts on and those same players do not lead the team by giving a supreme effort on defense, fans start picking apart every decision the coach and GM make. It is only human nature to do it. WE NEED AT LEAST ONE REAL POINT GUARD FOR THE FUTURE. Please give us one. Stop the circus act. It is not fair to the other players. We can't tell what there real potential might be. And SVG must think that once Reggie Jackson returns everything will be cool. Who will Reggie guard? Will it be Beal or Wall? Who will Smith guard? I saw him defending a 6 foot 7 inch player not long ago. How can he guard Spencer? SVG can't be planning for the future. He is looking for average now.

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Long Post

Post  WTF on Mon Jan 22, 2018 12:38 pm

Members of this forum are a dying breed and we've been at this for a very long time supporting this team of ours.  If you were fortunate enough to witness our Championship runs and struggle with the Teal Years of Grant Hill then your likely as old as I am.   

i really feel bad for all of us because it does truly makes me sad deep down that we have come to a point of settling on what we know deep down isn't what Pistons Basketball is all about.   I hate that we as fans, this organization, and the media have forgotten or placed aside our tradition over the years of what Pistons DNA looks like.  

I think about the players we cheered and those we jeered over time and even though we latched on to our own personal favorites I think we kept it honest and real.  I mean we didn't make excuse and lower the bar,  I recall many of us being critical about a team that frequent the ECF 8 straight seasons and yet we sit and kid ourselves about this current group of players.  We constantly make excuses for them they either too young or give them time or whatever it is to make ourselves feel better about them.

While I remember a time when we didn't make excuses for our players, I don't think there was ever a time when we said similar things about Rodman or Salley,  hell I don't think we said things like this about Hunter or Houston because we expected nothing but hard work and great effort out of players.  We certainly weren't say these things about Zeke and Tripucka when we drafted them at least not at the rate we doing with players like Andre, SJ, and so on and what makes it so heartbreaking is we're questioning their heart and effort and not their talent most of the time.

As I said time and time again I don't care what kind of stats Andre have/has he doesn't have half the heart of many centers that passed through here over the years.  I talking those that have won and not won Championships,  Buhdah, Lamb, Big Ben, Mills, Lanier, Okur, Bison, Polynice, West, Ratliff, can you remember Don Reid F/C?  Remember the heart and effort of this guy before injuries, remember we all had big hopes for this guy simply based on the DNA he had.  

What I can say about all those guys I mentioned above and I'm sure I forgotten a few is that they were all tougher and smarter players than what we get  from Andre and that if Andre played with half the heart and effort as any of them he'll likely be leading this team to the Next Level and earning every dime of that huge ass contract he signed. 

When do we raise the bar back to the standards that Zeke and other set for themselves and this organization.  This **** is crazy and I wish it would change.   I don't like where this team is going and where it's likely to end up not just this season but many seasons moving forward.  We need to fire SVG and get some Pistons DNA here running things, We need to draft players that have that DNA,  players that want to win, and work hard.  Right now we have players collecting pay checks with no real accountability.  If Zeke was on a 5 game losing streak **** would be hitting the fan, the same with CB and Big Ben, people would be called to the carpet and that includes the coach.
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Misleading messages?

Post  Sparma on Mon Jan 22, 2018 12:03 pm

I agree with BD that SVG's becoming deceptive.

SVG: "I don't know what's with us right now," coach Stan Van Gundy said. "We're not playing hard enough consistently enough. We play at hard times. I thought we fought our way back and really gave it a good fight from being down 15. We're not consistent enough at the defensive end and that I don't understand."

As I described, we went down 15 after a 13-4 stretch with Moreland in. It wasn't that they weren't trying hard defensively during that stretch. To his credit, Moreland works as hard, if not harder, then anyone defensively. I'm not even sure we "really gave it a good fight from being down 15." SVG switched out Moreland, and put in Tolliver, and that started the turn around. Was that group working harder than with Moreland in there? I doubt it. Tolliver's just the better player, and that combination worked better. The catching up resulted more from having better combinations of player out there than from effort, even if effort made some differ. Yes, you need effort, but strategy and execution are crucial. Maybe last year there was a deficiency of effort with Reggie J and Andre, but by and large that's not what I'm seeing this year. Effort's necessary, but at the NBA referring to "effort" is often a lazy, or deliberately hazy, interpretation of what's going on.

I didn't see the first quarter, so maybe Drummond was working harder in the 4th than in the 1st. But I think SVG's putting some misleading stuff out there. Interpreted charitably, it could be him covering for a player: something like: Moreland works as hard as any player in the NBA but he's just not good enough to do what I've been asking from him. Or maybe SVG's underlying thought is: we're really mediocre on O, so as a team we need to work like fiends on D to give ourselves a chance with our shaky O. Instead of putting it like that, I'll just focus on the importance of defensive effort.

Whatever, I for one have lost a ton of faith in SVG. He doesn't develop young players effectively, he doesn't manage the roster well. A contrast with Larry Brown: we were outstanding on plays drawn up on timeouts with him. Not so with SVG. What happened the other day, with Ish -- a non-shooter -- inbounding at the end of the game and then, not surprisingly, getting the ball back (did he shovel it to Bradley for a miss?) What a mess.
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Stick it to his AZZ SPINCE!

Post  Phil1980boy on Mon Jan 22, 2018 3:01 am

Good for you SPENCE! Stick it to Stan Van Gundy's stubborn, hard head azz!

Hey Stan! WIN NOW WITH THIS Question?

Who would you prefer as your starting PG moving forward? Spencer or Reggie Jackson? lol lol lol

See, this is where win now gets short sighted Head Coaches/GM's in trouble.

This is why A head coach does not make A good GM.

Luke Kennard Name should never come up in any trade talks. Kid is too young, too talented and too good to even consider trading.

Even more then I blame Van Gundy, I blame Gores. Not A good owner at all. I wish Mr. I and his Organization would have landed the Pistons... Then this Organization would be moving in the right direction.

This team is A F.U.C.K.I.N.G JOKE. Build for the FUTURE and stop this WIN NOW BULL S.H.I.T conversation! Get A high draft and get the s.h.i.t right.

Any organization who is comfortable playing for the 7th and 8th seed every year has A loser fan base, loser owner, loser coaches, loser players, losers mentality.

Right now the Pistons are being lead by LOSERS! Things need to change FAST!
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Ballin

Post  Oracle on Mon Jan 22, 2018 2:27 am

Yes, that was my first response, but I can't deny you make a compelling case.

I commented earlier that I wasn't sure if SVG had lost his team, but I'm sure he's lost us and other knowledgeable fans. To be honest, I'm in total shock that we're where we are.

I picked 42 wins mostly because I wasn't confident that Reggie was fully recovered. However, while I know we miss him, I simply can't believe that we miss him this much, the problems are deeper!
BallinD wrote:@Oracle:  Yes, your response is reasonable under reasonable circumstances, and I am not in disagreement, but yet it plays to the argument that players win games, not coaches.  I can definitely see your point and yet these are not reasonable circumstances, I fear.

Under reasonable circumstances we would not have a buffoon for a coach who for the past umpteen losses replays the broken record that we did not defend, didn't try hard enough.  Reasonable circumstances would not put this question to him but after five losses in a row, I think it is fair to question defensive strategy, which is his purview.  He IMO is mostly ducking and dodging the real issues with this team and using a convenient scapegoat of poor defense to hide his abysmal coaching skills, by saying they just did not try hard enough to defend.  

So I think it is fitting to turn the tables on his narrative and ask him what did he do to help this time, did he make the necessary adjustment?  Well he had a timeout at his disposal and at least two brain cells to rub together.  He could have seen that Dinwidde was hot, balling out, and highly motivated to use his 6'6" to score, but he's got Ish out there on a clear must-have defensive stop.  But if defense is so damn important, and if we really needed this win, which we did, then it is clear he failed to coach up and get a bigger body on Dinwidde.  But he did nothing, he of the big mouth.  Why was Ish in there on a defensive stop last play of the game scenario?

Jus Sayin.  Yeah, not a fan of the fat man.
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The Way You Do The Things You Do

Post  BallinD on Mon Jan 22, 2018 12:04 am

@Oracle:  Yes, your response is reasonable under reasonable circumstances, and I am not in disagreement, but yet it plays to the argument that players win games, not coaches.  I can definitely see your point and yet these are not reasonable circumstances, I fear.

Under reasonable circumstances we would not have a buffoon for a coach who for the past umpteen losses replays the broken record that we did not defend, didn't try hard enough.  Reasonable circumstances would not put this question to him but after five losses in a row, I think it is fair to question defensive strategy, which is his purview.  He IMO is mostly ducking and dodging the real issues with this team and using a convenient scapegoat of poor defense to hide his abysmal coaching skills, by saying they just did not try hard enough to defend.  

So I think it is fitting to turn the tables on his narrative and ask him what did he do to help this time, did he make the necessary adjustment?  Well he had a timeout at his disposal and at least two brain cells to rub together.  He could have seen that Dinwidde was hot, balling out, and highly motivated to use his 6'6" to score, but he's got Ish out there on a clear must-have defensive stop.  But if defense is so damn important, and if we really needed this win, which we did, then it is clear he failed to coach up and get a bigger body on Dinwidde.  But he did nothing, he of the big mouth.  Why was Ish in there on a defensive stop last play of the game scenario?

Jus Sayin.  Yeah, not a fan of the fat man.
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Stuff...

Post  Oracle on Sun Jan 21, 2018 11:09 pm

@Ballin, @Sparma - Yes, putting Ish on Dinwiddie might have been a mistake, but Ish did slow him down a bit to allow Andre to pressure the shot, Dinwiddie just hit a tough shot. It's hard for me to assign blame, I feel more comfortable tipping my hat to Dinwiddie(as they should/would have to Drummond if we won) for a great play under pressure.

As Don pointed out, it does show the danger of giving up on young players too soon. I see Dinwiddie much like Stanley, caught up in SVG's house of horrors and looking bad from the experience. With the body Stanley has, there's no excuse for him not playing like this every night, if SVG can get out of his way.

This team also shows the danger of falling in love with a player before you research or know anything about them.
https://www.detroitbadboys.com/2018/1/21/16917460/pistons-vs-nets-final-score-dinwiddie-gets-revenge-drops-pistons-101-100 wrote:The most important things of note for the Pistons were that Stanley Johnson and Luke Kennard were really good and Avery Bradley continues to be terrible at basketball.

Johnson scored 18 points, which is his highest point total in nearly two years. Kennard put up 13 points and was a reliable threat from deep. Meanwhile Bradley scored just 7 points on 3-12 shooting.
Bradley continues to stink, even if it's not all his fault. He's living the SVG curse, and only SVG can free him with a mercy trading at the deadline.
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SVG answers

Post  Sparma on Sun Jan 21, 2018 10:49 pm

Addressing guarding Spencer with Ish at the end, SVG in effect says: it's on me. (http://www.detroitnews.com/videos/sports/nba/pistons/2018/01/21/stan-van-gundy-after-pistons-loss-nets/109693704/)

I'd didn't hear an answer to my question about Moreland though.  Of course, I would have gone in a different direction immediately with AD in foul trouble.  What frustrated me especially though is that the Moreland substitution was working so badly that SVG called a second TO, but then stuck Moreland back in there, for a second bad stretch, before coming to his senses and trying something different.

He looked/ sounded even more downhearted than usual in the post-game interview.  Solutions before Wednesday?

BallinD wrote:Why in the He!! was ish guarding the stache on that last play, SVG?  He's 5-10" or something against 6-6."  The coaches job is to give his team a chance to win, but that makes so little sense, I guess it had to make sense to Van Gumby.
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That is what happens when you give up on your young players too soon. Spencer Dinwiddie gave SVG the middle finger

Post  cool breeze on Sun Jan 21, 2018 9:25 pm

What a shot by AD with 4 seconds left on the clock. That made up for AD once again failing to block out in the paint allowing LaVert to sneak in for that big offensive rebound earlier. Great games by both Spencer and Stanley Johnson. SVG thought long and hard on the type of point guards he wanted to lead our Pistons. He has failed miserably. Meanwhile anyone who had watched Spencer lead his Colorado team in college would know he is a fantastic player. Now Dinwiddie has found a coach who has trust in him. That was all he ever needed. SVG never gave him a chance to succeed. Dinwiddie at 6 foot 6 inches tall must have been too tall.

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Riddle Me This Batmen

Post  BallinD on Sun Jan 21, 2018 7:55 pm

Why in the He!! was ish guarding the stache on that last play, SVG? He's 5-10" or something against 6-6." The coaches job is to give his team a chance to win, but that makes so little sense, I guess it had to make sense to Van Gumby.
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Again

Post  WTF on Sun Jan 21, 2018 7:42 pm

This stuff is just too funny and too sad at the same time but I'll laugh before I cry.   There's only so much positive spinning you can put on this whole team collectively they're going nowhere.   

Even they had managed to pull this game out I wasn't going to be happy with it, but I guess I'll never be happy until I actual see Next Level effort and results out this bunch.  IMO this team is as good as it's going to be until massive roster changes are made and SVG gets fired.
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It's on me

Post  Sparma on Sun Jan 21, 2018 7:36 pm

First: great game by Dinwiddie including the dagger at the end. Good for him.

Secondly: great game by Stanley J. Kelser commenting on one play about him being committed in going to the basket. Let's not give him away (even though I'm happy to include him in a good trade).

O.k.: Drummond goes out in the 3rd with his 4th foul, Pistons down 6. Moreland comes in, makes a couple of nice offensive plays, but the team struggles tremendously to score with him in there, and is outscored 13-4 during that stretch. SVG raises his hand, as if asking what he can do. Tolliver comes in for a small line up, playing C for a spell, and the Pistons begin to catch up. Even Kelser pointed out that Moreland wasn't being defended, demonstrating with a replay. Twice I saw Zeller playing 8 feet (!!!) off of him, daring him to shoot. The first time Moreland drove in, scoring on a nice mini hook, so credit to him there.

Here's a case where having played might make a difference, but maybe it's just an obvious point: it's devastating to the O when the opposing center can sag off, in effect adding a roving defender to double wherever needed. That puts the O at an enormous disadvantage!! When you lose by 1 you can point to a bunch of things, but that 13-4 stretch was killer. Moreland at -9 in 10 minutes, one off of the team worst -10 by Reggie B.

Indeed, SVG: it's on you.


BallinD wrote:Is it just me, or has Van Gumby lost this team with his Panic Mastery, yapping, wacko rotations, riding the cold hand, poor inbounds plays, stubborness, payroll management, lack of imagination and his quacking like a dog?  clown clown

Or he could trade Bradley (like a mercy killing) and Weggie, Galloway, SJ (another mercy killing), then commit seppuku (the final mercy killing). facepalm  Andre said he wants to get in on some of that action...mercy killing.  After all it is only Brooklyn.
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It couldn't be true, but it is...

Post  Oracle on Sun Jan 21, 2018 7:25 pm

Andre Drummond almost scores the winning basket... but Dinwiddie completes his revenge!!!!

Ballin, I don't know if SVG has lost the team yet, but he's getting there!

Good stuff:
1. Kennard is really the real deal, he just needs more PT, his defense is so so, but that's not his calling card!
2. Stanley Johnson showed me some flashes of why I used to be high on him, can he keep it up?

Other than that, we're a below .500 team again, which is a proof SVG needs replacing.
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Groundhogs Day

Post  BallinD on Sun Jan 21, 2018 6:48 pm

Is it just me, or has Van Gumby lost this team again with his Panic Mastery, yapping, wacko rotations, riding the cold hand, poor inbounds plays, stubborness, payroll management, lack of imagination and his quacking like a dog?  clown clown

Or he could trade Bradley (like a mercy killing) and Weggie, Galloway, SJ (another mercy killing), then commit seppuku (the final mercy killing). facepalm  Andre said he wants to get in on some of that action...mercy killing.  After all it is only Brooklyn.


Last edited by BallinD on Sun Jan 21, 2018 7:46 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Why the Pistons should never consider giving away any first or 2nd round picks in the near future

Post  cool breeze on Sun Jan 21, 2018 12:46 pm

I have been following Memphis lately trying to figure out what their management team is doing to get their team back on track. They have found young players who cost very little who fit in nicely as rotation players while they wait to build a more competitive team through the draft. I had my eye on two of their players last season as having successful careers in the NBA.
1. Dillon Brooks -age 21- small forward Best player in the PAC12 last season playing for Oregon. This guy was a great team leader who could pull off the impossible to win games as a college player. Oregon went a long way in the NCAA tournament last year and it was too bad that he had an injury in his last two games. I was shocked that no NBA team picked him up until the 2nd round. He was the 47th pick. Meanwhile Fultz was picked number one overall in that same draft. Fultz wasn't good enough to hold Brooks jock strap. Whatever play you needed either on offense or defense, Brooks could make that play for his team. Now he is a rotation player on Memphis and the fans love him. Why wouldn't they? Fans love to see a player who will give up his body and use every ounce of energy to help his team win. You all know how I try to convince others about the value of Stanley Johnson. Who would I rather watch? There is no question that Brooks proved himself as a much better college player than the first rounder Johnson and for sure he is much more fun to watch as a fan. I hope Brooks has a great career in the NBA. I know of no other player who has more heart than he shows when playing basketball. He is averaging 25 minutes and 10+ points per game and makes $815,000.00.
2. Kobi Simmons - point guard - age 20 - drafted number 60. Simmons played well in the first half of last season at Arizona. He got playing time when Alonzo Trier was unable to play and showed that he has good ball handling skills and a sweet stroke from distance. He was playing out of position at the 2 guard because Arizona's head coach had a crush on his starting 5 foot 10 inch point guard still playing this season as a senior. In my opinion Arizona lost in the Sweet 16 because Simmons was on the bench while the starting point guard was getting killed by opposing guards. Simmons was the last player drafted but had full confidence in himself and played well at the Chicago combine. An opportunity lost by the Pistons as SVG felt he had his two ball dominate and predictable point guards in Jackson and Smith. How far off can you get to create your team around two ball dominate point guards. No team can win when you have two point guards who play the same way offensively and do all of the creating instead of working as a team of 5 players who create offense together. And to make matters worse, both of SVG's selected point guards cannot play average NBA defense. They have no answer for teams like Washington. No point guards like Simmons were in the background developing within the Piston organization either. One must come to the conclusion that SVG does not believe that great point guards are needed to win championships. How can that be?

Remember the loss against Chicago which is a team that decided to rebuild yet still kicked the Pistons ass in their last matchup? Did any of you see Lauri Markkanen knock down all those 3 point shots in that game. I didn't see him make any mental mistakes in that game and he showed that he is a fantastic all around player and a great shooter. He did that in college all last season for Arizona. Pro scouts thought he might have trouble playing defense in the NBA. I thought he was a really good defender in college. He played along side a 7 foot center Duson Ristic who is a horrible defender and had to cover for his mistakes so much that he accumulated a lot of fouls. Markkanen was drafted number 7 last summer. He should have been in the top 3. If the Pistons management would have tanked just a little bit instead of winning meaningless games, Detroit could have had Markkanen playing power forward for many years. Markkanen has to be in the running for rookie of the year. He might be better than any current player on this Piston team and Chicago got him at number 7.

Reed Travis - There is no doubt in my mind that Deandre Ayton should be the number one pick in next summers draft. The Pistons won't get him for sure. However, yesterday, Arizona played at Stanford and they have a 4 year power forward/center Reed Travis, who is not even listed on the draft board on NBADRAFTNET. Travis was the best player on the floor in that close game and got Ayton in foul trouble as he was able to get a body on Ayton and use a variety of post up moves to out fox the fox. And Travis has very effective outside shot. He plays solid defense and is a high energy type player. But even better, Travis was a highly rated quarterback in high school. He qualified to attend school at Stanford and not only has a high academic IQ but a high basketball IQ. He has a solid body and loves contact. Travis is in the running for PAC12 player of the year too. So why in hell are the pro scouts so hyped up on Oklahoma's Trea Young? He shot the ball about 40 or more times yesterday. Can you imagine playing on that Oklahoma team with that guy? In the end he never looked at any of his teammates and there were several open and launched that mindless shot that had no change of going in the basket. That is what GMs are looking for these days. The next Curry maybe. So that leads me to believe that if the Pistons had a good management team they would load up on 2nd round picks and develop those plcks for future success. I see no signs that the Pistons have any solid plan for the future. This team is it and there are not enough fundamentally sound players to ever win much more than a game of marbles. Right now Reed Travis could out play Ellenson and Leuer. He is a solid defender and rebounder and no coach would ever have to worry about him being engaged or being in the right place at the right time on either offense or defense.

Payton Prittchard - freshman playing at Oregon - Payton might not enter the draft next summer but I see him as a solid NBA two way player at point guard. Yesterday, he scored 25 points, broke UCLA's press and made every player on his team better in that win. He needs to become more consistent but he was a very highly rated high school point guard who could have gone to any school in the country. How high would his stock be in this coming draft if he did decide to enter the draft. I doubt he is getting much attention from the pro scouts. Most likely he will fall under the radar because few of the experts who list those names as the top rated picks watch much basketball in the West. At any rate I really enjoy watching both Reed and Prittchard play basketball and believe they will have a solid shot to win a lot of playing time in the NBA.

I am only providing this information because it is becoming tiring to watch the various management teams that have been hired by the pistons who are much like our politicians. They throw a lot of money at players who are not good enough to ever be part of a championship caliber team. All of the payroll is taken up by players who have too many flaws and have never ever been part of any championship team in their lives. They are freak athletes but something is missing relating to motivation and skill set. Players are not consistently ready to play hard or smart. The team chemistry is not one that shows me they are confident of winning. We have better players this season and they play harder. But most of the payroll is taken up by Andre Drummond, Reggie Jackson, and Tobias Harris. AD at times can hold his own at the center position but is not worth the money he is making. Tobias Harris can score but has shooting slumps and then is a liability on defense against some power forwards. Reggie Jackson and Ish Smith will never be successful in a playoff situation because neither can match well on defense against any NBA starting guard combination. Neither can guard point guards or 2 guards well and opposing teams will target them as the weak link in the playoffs.

Meanwhile the Detroit news outlets are featuring the news that Jon Leuer will now be out for the season. Did those reporters watch any of the Piston games last season. Is that news release something Piston management through out as a reason why the Pistons are now in the 9th position. Maybe being in last place would be a good thing for the future of the Pistons. How about trading AD, RJ and Harris for some first and 2nd round picks? Take on some bad contracts as long as they are not as big as the players we will lose.

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Hit The Self-destruct Button Seems More Reasonable

Post  WTF on Sun Jan 21, 2018 10:26 am

Definitely too late to be talking about Win Now when you're sitting 9th in the conference half way through the season.  That's the type of thing SVG should have been saying back in July 2017 it's certainly what I've been screaming as far back as 2 seasons ago.

As far as unleashing Kennard that should have been the mind set of SVG from the start of the seasons but for whatever reason he decided it was better to yank Kennard's chain when there was every indication he needed to start games.  IMO I think it would have benefitted both Bradley and Kennard if their roles were reversed.  I think Bradley would better and more consistent if he came off the bench and based off of SVG words one would think it might have been smart to give Kennard time at the PG position as well.

Blowing it up well I've been screaming that as well or at least screaming a mini version of a blow up.  It's not hard to see the it need to happen the proof is in the pudding that this puddin is only generically good.  Yes AD numbers are good sometimes even great but he's not as advertised, he's not franchise and he never should have been looked at in that fashion. Now SVG has a problem with pulling back from that especially after over paying him.

I like Harris much in the way I liked Prince, Tripucka, Dantley, Aquire they all fitted into a role some better than others, but I don't see Harris as I saw other SF like Hill, Rodman and Big Nasty.  Is Harris a nice piece to have? Yes he is but he not going to consistently carry any team every game.  I'm really not shocked he's slumped a few times already.  

There was opportunity to move Reggie before the season started, there was opportunity early in the season and SVG for whatever reason didn't.  My gut was in overdrive that Reggie was all but gone.  This is just one of a hand full of reasons SVG needs to go and he's insane to be talking win now when it should have been the plan immediately at the end of last season.  So unless your going to tell me that we just added Cousins, Walker, Mirotic to go along with Harris, Andre, and Kennard for the next 2 or 3 seasons this team isn't going nowhere any time soon.   More importantly SVG would still have remove himself from them if it did happen.
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BLow up this season and start fresh next season

Post  Phil1980boy on Sun Jan 21, 2018 2:34 am

The Pistons are headed to the Place where Superman sends outcast. The Phantom ZONE! NOWHERE FAST!

Blow this S.H.I.T up.. I'm telling you. WIN NOW! WHITH WHO? WITH WHAT?

DRUMMONDS? 300 pounds, soft, can't block shots, can't really defend? lol lol

R.Jackson? Asthma attacks? Takes the game for A joke majority of the time? lol

Be serious? Be real with your-self? The Pistons are not A win now team. Even if they're 100000% healthy.

This team is build around joke players.

I would keep T.Harris, Luke Kennard, Ish Smith and I would trade everybody else in A heart beat!

If the Pistons decide to do A mini rebuild start with moving R.Jackson, Avery Bradley and Stanley Johnson. Don't move any draft picks but try to add picks.

Also, I would move on from Van Gundy. This win now talk really worried me big--time!

I would go out and find A Pistons DNA type of guy. My top choice would be Tayshaun Prince. Next would be Billups. If Possible, I would bring both in to run this Organization with direct orders to build for the future!

I would love to see what Luke, Drummonds and T.Harris could do with A high draft pick Point Guard and A high draft pick Power Forward? Get top talent in those two spots and now we talking about A win now team.
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Picking up the pieces

Post  Sparma on Sat Jan 20, 2018 9:43 pm

@Don: No doubt PG play makes a big difference. If we'd switched PGs I suspect we would have been winning by or more. Interesting observation about women's basketball. I'll venture a generalization about top flight soccer: women's soccer tends to be more fundamentally sound, while men's depends more on individual virtuosity. Sounds analogous to your observation.

Here's the imagined conversation I see as being at the root of our problems:

SVG: Following my blueprint, we'll win now while improving incrementally moving forward, leading to even more winning.
Gores: I was hoping you'd say that.
SVG: In order for my plan to succeed, I need to be the top executive as well as the coach. I don't want a repeat of Orlando, where others managed to undercut my design.
Gores: That's not a problem. In fact, it sounds necessary.
SVG: I'll also need enough time to bring my grand design to fruition.
Gores: Will five years suffice?
SVG: Yes, partner.

@BallinD: That's an epic rant.

I didn't want to say much about Boban, because I gone on too much about him, but, dang it, you're right. SVG needed to put him in the 3rd (if not earlier) to end the run. Wall destroyed us with his penetration, often followed by passes to the exterior. With Boban behind Ish and Bradley, the penetration's not so damaging. Also, with a giant inside, defenders can play farther out, actually defending the 3s better (as Kelser noted earlier). And of course he gets the dismal O into a working structure.
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They're Going Down

Post  BallinD on Sat Jan 20, 2018 3:06 pm

The Bad Ship Pusstons, taking on water, tuning out the Panic Master, the liar SVG, who refuses to keep it real.  

Man, that is one butt-ugly offense, no flow, motion, just jumpers and a few cuts to the basket here and there.  Can we get a point guard in here who knows how to run an offense, but, oh wait, there is no offense to run.  Teams have sniffed out the DHO, but we keep running it (with Bradley driving and bricking).  Any variations SVG? Let Kennard take the handoffs, Tobias, but almost only Bradley is almost always all bad.)

We can't score, but we keep our top offensive player on the bench, while Moreland, our defensive stopper stops no one and  racks up a minus 11 in 5 minutes, meanwhile our $127 M man puts up  only 5 shots.  But no Boban, who can stop runs with the best of them, and who protects the rim at least as well as Dre.  We can't score but we release Luke after it is too late.  There is no flow, no strategy, no synnergy, just loud complaints by SVG. And the fifth worst offensive rating in the NBA.

Bright spot!  SJ played a few good minutes and slowed down Oubre.  Luke taking and hitting the shots he needs to be taking more regularly. Dre did rebound and flirted with a triple double.  Bullock splashed a few, but nobody looks for him when he is open.  What a weapon to ignore!  Wow!

Dre: I just wasn't in the flow of the offense to really get some shots off. I'm a defensive stopper. I grab rebounds and I get my teammates open. I think we should do a better job of getting everybody a little more involved."
He's a defensive stopper?

Oh, wait...we are playing poor defense because our best defender...Weggie?? is injured, is that supposed to be the narrative we gotta swallow:

SVG:  "I'm a little frustrated with myself, coaching-wise, adjustments, whatever it is, but our defense is too inconsistent," coach Stan Van Gundy said. "I'm used to offensively being inconsistent, particularly when you're down your starting point guard (Reggie Jackson), but our defense is too inconsistent.


When teams make their runs, what does SVG do?  Nothing!  If the team is making a run and we do the same thing we were doing when they started making the run, then that is on coaching.  Call a timeout, run a play.  Get another player or two on the court.  When they made their run in the second half, he sat on his hands for us to go down by 20, but is that all on the players, or is it on SVG? How long did it take for him to substitute and get Tolliver in there?  Ish on Beal was a bad look, but does Doofus recognize it?  No!

He's used to the offense being inconsistent.  We better get used to that too.  Oh wait, we already are.  Welcome to the new normal and Stan, by his own statements, is used to it.  He has accepted that we have to play Moreland and the worst possible offense cause "I'm used to being offensively inconsistent."  Isn't offense half of the game?  You're just gonna give up, and do basically nothing?


Last edited by BallinD on Sat Jan 20, 2018 11:16 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Re: FORUM

Post  cool breeze on Sat Jan 20, 2018 1:50 pm

Sparma wrote:Watched the replay this morning; nice to have the breaks pretty much cut away.

As I remember the Pistons got up 29-14 with a little more than a minute to play in the 1st, with Wash scoring the last 5.  That fifteen point lead became a 20 point Wash lead.  A 35 point swing!!!  From that last minute or so of the 1st quarter until the 4th quarter they outscored us by 32.

The silver lining: we really outplayed Wash at the beginning and in the 4th quarter (except at the end!).  Dre was fantastic much of the game, picking up 8 assists (in spite of being two fine in threading the needle a couple of times, leading to TOs). Kennard was fantastic (esp. in the 4th.).  When your O generally struggles, how can you afford not to give a shooter like that more minutes?  Stanley J. had some excellent plays, including bulling through two guys for a TO, leading to a Tolliver finish (Doris Burke, correctly, also called him out for taking a couple of ill-advised shots [once he'd had a bit of success].  Moreland had a couple of excellent offensive plays, including a pretty hook; not surprisingly, he also led (?) the team with -11 in 4 minutes.

I won't go into all the things Wash did well while clobbering us.  Wall coming alive in the 3rd was the key in that hideous (45 points for Wash!!) third quarters.  But they just had too many weapons, especially with Oubre playing the game of his life.

As the announcers pointed out, things started falling apart for Detroit initially (at the end of the 1st) with the subs in.  No O, combined with TOs.  I've really liked Buycks, but he cost them.  He had a sequence of three bad plays in a row, including failing to dunk on a breakaway, getting blocked instead (he gets blocked a lot!), and having a bad TO that just seemed careless.  He came in second with -9 in 6 minutes.

But the starters were in there for most of the 3rd quarter when Wash pulled away.  Terrible D then (and I do believe Dre needs his share of the blame in that stretch; positioning's still not his forte).

Just not good enough.  Yes, the D was terrible while the game was being lost, but the inconsistent, or consistently ineffective, O's a killer.  There's often very little pattern to the O, which is partly why I keep calling for Boban, who allows for a structured and effective O.  Weird hearing the announcers reporting SVG saying that he needs to figure out how to generate O with a lack of guys creating their own O, when he's got the most efficient offensive player in NBA history sitting next to him.

A good game for a neutral observer to watch, with lots of good plays from both sides.  

I miss the 80s too, Wise, especially being 30 years younger (but it was fun to watch the Bad Boys then too).

Sparma you provided an honest assessment of this game. While losing against Toronto, I was optimistic because I think our Pistons could have a chance to beat Toronto in the playoffs. Washington is another matter. It puzzles me as to why that team is not doing a lot better especially the way they continually beat Detroit. What I like about your post is that you provided details about what you saw in this specific game. Buycks really did play solid on both ends until he signed his new contract. Maybe all the stress of playing on the fringe and then celebrating and feeling the comfort that a guaranteed contract brings has caused him to lose that edge he showed us earlier. Now he will ride the pine or the cold metal in the new arena for awhile and await his next chance if it ever comes.

While you have provided an honest effort with your description of the game, other media outlets provide us with other reasons why the Pistons are on this losing streak. We are missing rotation pieces in Jon Leuer and Reggie Jackson. Yes that is why our team is losing. Reggie Jackson could never guard Wall or Beal to save his life at any time in his career. And Washington has the answer with their defense to stop SVG's offense that bases everything on dribble happy point guards. What I saw was lack of effort on defense by our Pistons in the 3rd quarter where the players did not play like a real team. If the shots don't fall easily you can't slack off on defense. The opposite must happen if you want to win. Meanwhile, after the game I watched some great basketball that wasn't the typical circus act that the NBA provides. I watched Oregon and Oregon State women duke it out in a very exciting overtime game where Oregon State beat 7th ranked Oregon. The women on both teams were very athletic and played smart. Oregon played multiple defenses using a variety of zone full court pressure, 3/4 court woman to woman press with the hit and switch John Wooden style defense that always can create a few turnovers. But Oregon State women seldom turned the ball over and their point guard and 2 guards were outstanding play makers. Some of the outside shots made by both teams beyond the 3 point line against pressure and in crunch time was amazing to watch. Both teams shot free throws well. And a big plus was the fact that many of the athletes looked beautiful. There is nothing more pleasing for my eyes to see than fine looking women who are in outstanding physical condition and are fully engaged in sporting events as participants not watchers. It doesn't matter what sport it might be either. To see females who love athletics and have more interests than shopping gives me great hope for the future. My wife has suggested that I might have more fun watching college women's basketball than the NBA or the men's college basketball. After watching that game last night I had to admit she is correct as she has always been throughout our long marriage. If I were living in Oregon, I would be purchasing season tickets depending on how close I lived to either college. Oregon State had a fully packed arena. No empty seats. People will come out to see high basketball IQ players perform and both teams had many filling out their teams.

Fans want something more regarding professional basketball. I am tired of watching too many freak athletes blessed by the Gods with outstanding bodies who get playing time and too much attention from media without doing the hard work of learning how to play the game the right way. Bill Laimbeer said he has has lost interest in watching the NBA game. Attending college basketball games is much more exciting that what is offered by the NBA front office. There are college students who show great emotion and get their team jacked up. You can feel the excitement before the game starts. And the rules in the college game make things more interesting as more strategy is involved. Teams are allowed to play multiple defenses and players on offense have to be better prepared to run a offense based on what kind of defense is being played. If the NBA allowed multiple defenses to be employed we could see minor market teams have more success as they could create a teams with a specific identity stacking their teams with players who can excel playing multiple zone defenses full court, 3/4 court and so on. Increase the time on the shot clock instead of decreasing the amount time a team can hold the ball. Instead many want to speed up the game even more so the NBA can be true AAU style run and gun. The fans watch teams turnover the ball 25 times a game and think nothing of it. I think fans are tired of watching players drive the lane with no opposition. Dunking is pretty boring for many of us. And of course the NBA All Star game features a dunking contest. WOW! Who watches the All Star game anymore? I don't know anyone who watches it. The early rounds of the NBA playoffs can be exciting too. But the NBA has become too predictable. The game is too long, there is very little strategy involved ( as Ish Smith says, the NBA game is simply read and react), and there are too many NBA teams who play too many games. Will greed bring the NBA crashing down as the arenas continue to remain almost empty in many cities where tax payers have funded those arenas? Maybe the time will come where the ratings are down so low that the NBA will tear up all guaranteed contracts and play games where the winner takes all and any style of defense can be used to help out teams who have less talent. Tennis players and golfers have no guaranteed contracts unless they are playing in an exhibition event. Wouldn't that cause players to become more "engaged". That new arena in Detroit would be packed full. Just dreaming for something better to offer more excitement because something is missing when thinking about regular season NBA games.

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Outscored by 32 in the heart of the game

Post  Sparma on Sat Jan 20, 2018 12:39 pm

Watched the replay this morning; nice to have the breaks pretty much cut away.

As I remember the Pistons got up 29-14 with a little more than a minute to play in the 1st, with Wash scoring the last 5. That fifteen point lead became a 20 point Wash lead. A 35 point swing!!! From that last minute or so of the 1st quarter until the 4th quarter they outscored us by 32.

The silver lining: we really outplayed Wash at the beginning and in the 4th quarter (except at the end!). Dre was fantastic much of the game, picking up 8 assists (in spite of being two fine in threading the needle a couple of times, leading to TOs). Kennard was fantastic (esp. in the 4th.). When your O generally struggles, how can you afford not to give a shooter like that more minutes? Stanley J. had some excellent plays, including bulling through two guys for a TO, leading to a Tolliver finish (Doris Burke, correctly, also called him out for taking a couple of ill-advised shots [once he'd had a bit of success]. Moreland had a couple of excellent offensive plays, including a pretty hook; not surprisingly, he also led (?) the team with -11 in 4 minutes.

I won't go into all the things Wash did well while clobbering us. Wall coming alive in the 3rd was the key in that hideous (45 points for Wash!!) third quarters. But they just had too many weapons, especially with Oubre playing the game of his life.

As the announcers pointed out, things started falling apart for Detroit initially (at the end of the 1st) with the subs in. No O, combined with TOs. I've really liked Buycks, but he cost them. He had a sequence of three bad plays in a row, including failing to dunk on a breakaway, getting blocked instead (he gets blocked a lot!), and having a bad TO that just seemed careless. He came in second with -9 in 6 minutes.

But the starters were in there for most of the 3rd quarter when Wash pulled away. Terrible D then (and I do believe Dre needs his share of the blame in that stretch; positioning's still not his forte).

Just not good enough. Yes, the D was terrible while the game was being lost, but the inconsistent, or consistently ineffective, O's a killer. There's often very little pattern to the O, which is partly why I keep calling for Boban, who allows for a structured and effective O. Weird hearing the announcers reporting SVG saying that he needs to figure out how to generate O with a lack of guys creating their own O, when he's got the most efficient offensive player in NBA history sitting next to him.

A good game for a neutral observer to watch, with lots of good plays from both sides.

I miss the 80s too, Wise, especially being 30 years younger (but it was fun to watch the Bad Boys then too).
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ASG Format

Post  WTF on Sat Jan 20, 2018 10:56 am

Not sure I'm feeling about the new ASG Format but I guess it don't hurt to try something different.  I don't think a new format is needed just a simple renew of what was traditionally good about the ASG.   You know again I stress my love of the 80's for numerous reasons but the level of competiveness is always at the forefront.  

Magic, Bird, MJ, Zeke and others really wanted to win those games, is was truly of the ideal my conference is better than your conference and they wanted to prove it.   Yes they wanted to showcase they're individual talents and skills but they also wanted to win that game.  Question when was the last time we saw some mind blowing display of talent in an ASG?

Maybe the should do like baseball that no matter what your record the conference that wins automatically gets home-court advantage in Finals, do something to motivate the level of competiveness in this game.  The NBA does far too much to appease fans these day that it is slowly diminishing the traditions that have long worked.  So here they are with this video game fantasy format.  

I MISS THE 80'S
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Trade(s)?

Post  Sparma on Sat Jan 20, 2018 12:19 am

I'd love for us to make a good trade, but I'm skeptical that it's going to happen now.

Read a while ago about the possibility of Bradley to Cleveland for Shumpert and Brooklyn's high 1st rounder, then saw that rumor recirculated recently. No way that Cleveland goes for that (it was in a longer list of trades).

Stan's made some good trades, e.g. for Harris, but with him becoming desperate it seems likely he'd be inclined to give up too much of the future (when he may not even be around). For instance, I rate Ellenson highly. Wouldn't want to see him go as a mere throw in.

If they get some kind of cap relief with Leuer out for the season, that could help. 5 mil in cap space is the possibility I saw?

Couldn't watch Wash live; not sure I feel for watching the replay with another disastrous second half.
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Guess Who's Sitting 9th In The Conference SMH

Post  WTF on Fri Jan 19, 2018 11:35 pm

Just AMAZING  facepalm
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Re: FORUM

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