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It's All a Big Gamble

Post  WTF on Wed May 09, 2018 7:31 pm

Oracle wrote:This coming year we don't need or want any green GM, coach or president... just say NO to any rookies!

That leaves Zeke, Laimbeer and Mahorn, IMO.

Zeke is, again, IMO, the obvious candidate for GM. Zeke's eye for talent is damn near unmatched, only exceeded by the great Jerry West.

While Laims & Mahorn have experience, it's not at the NBA level, so if a better candidate is available, I'll just take Zeke and call it a day, letting him pick the next coach.

A rookie coach is not a good idea for a veteran team like this one, we need a coach that can immediately get the respect and attention of these players.

Well, that's my 2 cents...

I kind of feel that way but this thing is such a crap shot these days.  I'm leaning towards the experience factor but I'm okay with the candidate being green and fresh as long as they have ties to this organization with great success.   So I'm open to guys like CB, not coaching but in a GM role, theirs no doubt Zeke tops the list of all former Pistons players.  

I wouldn't object to Zeke as President, CB as GM and Laimbeer as Coach.   I'm also supportive of support roles on the coaching staff for guys like Ben and Sheed.   

Other than that I would love to give these 3 guys a shot also at coaching (Ewing, a return of Cheeks, or Woodson LB former assistant)  What I honestly don't want to see is some number crunching analytical ass that never played the game because they're less relative to players or the game itself.  No denying the importance of actually being there as a player.  Most of the good coaches actually played the game before coaching while there been a handful that never played they seem rare when it comes to NBA success as a coach.

Just a thought but I do in a way think CB has a slight advantage as far as being a coach because of the number good coaches he's played for.  IMO he's seen it all as far as playing for good coaches goes.   

In the end I just hope the hiring has in depth meaning and not just something pulled out of Arn's and Gore asses and forced down the throats of players and fans.  The media needs to be very mindful of keeping a eye on this and not be just Homers in reporting on this process or the new hire.
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Only Experienced people need apply!

Post  Oracle on Wed May 09, 2018 5:57 pm

This coming year we don't need or want any green GM, coach or president... just say NO to any rookies!

That leaves Zeke, Laimbeer and Mahorn, IMO.

Zeke is, again, IMO, the obvious candidate for GM. Zeke's eye for talent is damn near unmatched, only exceeded by the great Jerry West.

While Laims & Mahorn have experience, it's not at the NBA level, so if a better candidate is available, I'll just take Zeke and call it a day, letting him pick the next coach.

A rookie coach is not a good idea for a veteran team like this one, we need a coach that can immediately get the respect and attention of these players.

Well, that's my 2 cents...
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John Beilein

Post  WTF on Wed May 09, 2018 11:43 am

If we were to dip into the college ranks for a coach I vote John Beilein as the next coach.  I really just want someone that has ties to this organization or at least the state of Michigan.  No more jump on the first shiny object that's trending.

While I'm one happy camper that SVG has seen his last days I'm not so eager to jump on the next coach that slides through here and start this cycle all over again of giving it 5 years to pan out.   We need to win now period the window is closing and we don't have another 5 year to play wait and see.  AD is gone when his deal is up,  BG is a big uncertainty for the next 4 season and we can't keep banking on RJ.   

IMO if we're subjected to another 5 seasons of similar BS then let take it old school and hire every Pistons Great we can.  At least that'll be entertainment in itself watching these greats on the sideline and running ****.  Bet the Palace sellout then, bet the team has an identity then,  here's the slogan for them "Bad Boys Goin To Work To Be Champions".   tb
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Something Old, Something New

Post  deusXango on Wed May 09, 2018 10:05 am

Murph wrote:GM:  Chauncey Billups
Chauncey has NO front office experience, Isiah does. Popularity has gotten us into enough trouble.
Head Coach:  Isiah Thomas
Bill Laimbeer has long deserved a shot at coaching in the NBA, why not the Pistons? He has a record of turning things around.
Asst Coach:  Bill Laimbeer
Rick Mahorn is arguably the best defensive big man coach the league has never seen; if he can't get his weight down, Big Ben.
Asst Coach:  Rickie Mahorn
The diverse skill set, for a big man, is undeniable and my personal vote goes to Rasheed Wallace.
Big Man Coach:  Ben Wallace
I don't think we need a big man coach as much as we need a President and that's where Chauncey comes in, we also need a staff that has a place for Rip Hamilton, perpetual motion, relentless scorer. This crew could convince Arnie Kander to come out of retirement; we sorely need him back!.

This is not a criticism Murph, but just my 2-cents worth. I expect other posters to express their opinions on new leadership as this is a very stimulating subject you brought up and what better for us Pistons fans to debate right now?
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Same Old Same Old?

Post  Murph on Wed May 09, 2018 8:48 am

Is this going to be another Warriors/Cavs NBA Finals for the 4th year in a row?    Sleep

Warriors in 6?
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Embrace the Tradition

Post  Murph on Wed May 09, 2018 8:09 am

GM:  Chauncey Billups

Head Coach:  Isiah Thomas

Asst Coach:  Bill Laimbeer

Asst Coach:  Rickie Mahorn

Big Man Coach:  Ben Wallace
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SVG/ Coverage/ Vince Ellis

Post  Sparma on Tue May 08, 2018 11:50 pm

Good talk by Vince Ellis at the freep, with Shawn Windsor. One point he made is that SVG might still be coaching if he'd given Kennard more of a chance, with the team playing better with him than without. He mentioned Stan's pulling Kennard after a minute. Saw Kennard developing into a good player, not a star. He added that Gores had a problem with Stan qua coach, not just as front office guy. He mentioned that some wondered if Stan's abrasive style could still work in the NBA. He emphasized that the Griffin trade was a Stan AND Gores decision. Strikingly, he said that maybe one person could do the job, but that Stan couldn't be that one person. He reiterated the problem of Stan overspending on okay FAs, like Leuer and Galloway, which left little room for roster flexibility [I think Windsor added, like when Reggie J went down]. Focused less on drafting problems, but added that SVG doesn't have a lot to show there after 4 years. Also injury woes. Repeatedly said he could see the Pistons winning 44-45 next year. Added more than once that the team's low ceiling makes for a legitimate gripe about SVG. Brought up Griffin's half joking complaint about the amount of practice in comparison with Doc Rivers, and a similar remark by Avery Bradley in relation to Brad Stevens [surprising].

They both seemed to give SVG credit for stabilizing the team, for changing the culture for the better, and for upgrading the roster in comparison with 4 years ago.

Gores came in for his fair share of the blame, moving to his fourth coach since 2011 (as I remember) with little success to show. They cast doubt on the perception that he's so removed, but rather focused on the largely crummy results since he's been in charge.

Asked about major trades, like of Reggie J, he said that he could see why the next management team might want to keep things about the same next year, apart from tinkering (not that there's much flexibility anyway). Accountability really comes into play once the new management team makes big moves [not really what I want to hear as Pistons fan, but maybe a realistic assessment].

He raised Stackhouse and Budenholzer as two strong candidates for coach. Seemed to issue a warning about Stack's intensity, that he'd done good work with young players, but that some (Griffin?) might take issue with his style.

I know that the Detroit press takes lots of flack (and Langlois richly deserves it with the propaganda smothering his insights), but I think we get some good coverage through Vince Ellis, Rod Beard, and John Niyo. Ellis is a friendly guy, but he doesn't mind telling it like it is. The guy at mlive who used to focus on the Pistons was also good.

SI's Michael Rosenberg, formerly of Detroit, had a good review of the situation. He seemed to cast shade on SVG's honesty concerning the eventual troubles in Miami and Orlando. But then, I also think he was the one to predict that we'd soon be hearing more about SVG's reservations about the Blake trade and maybe his reservations about drafting Kennard over Mitchell too. As I remember, it was he who added that ultimately SVG has been in charge, so needs to take responsibility for front office decisions.

Lots of good coverage, along with plenty of mediocre stuff too.
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In a rivalry Blood Must Flow...

Post  Oracle on Tue May 08, 2018 4:50 pm

No, I'm not talking about those two losers in Toronto, who are AGAIN bleeding from the Butt after getting bent over by LeBron.

These days they call it getting chippy as players once in a blue moon get in each others face and act like they want to win.

No, in a real rivalry Blood Must Flow... I give you Isiah Lord Thomas and the Bad Boys! Watch the blood flow...

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Really

Post  deusXango on Tue May 08, 2018 2:33 pm

Get a damn GM in here and f@ck worrying about replacing SVG as coach...he wasn't all that as a coach for Detroit however, he was one helluva an excuse maker. Signing and sticking by Reggie Jackson as PG was ludicrous and going on record saying Jon Leuer was a starter in the NBA?! Get a GM who will make astute decisions and let's move past the SVG love!

Jerry Stackhouse will be worse than Stan Van Gundy as a HC.
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Moving On

Post  BallinD on Tue May 08, 2018 2:09 pm

Tweet:


Bill Simmons
✔️
@BillSimmons
Dear Detroit,
Sorry about taking Kennard over Mitchell, overpaying Reggie Jackson, taking Stanley Johnson over getting four 1sts from Boston, ruining your salary cap with the Blake trade, and leaving you without a 2018 1st. I’m gonna go do TV, I’ll see you later.
—Thanks, SVG

7:51 AM - May 7, 2018

TNT Guys: Sir Charles, Kenny, Shaq: It's time to get Isiah Lord Thomas in the house.


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Quick Thoughts

Post  WTF on Tue May 08, 2018 11:52 am

I've been on point the vast majority of the season so why not take a shot on predicting we'll be keeping our pick this seasons.  Yes the odds are not in our favor but I just got a feeling.  Had this feeling since the day we gave up the pick something keep pulling at me that we're landing in the top 3.

Also Toronto is a joke not sure what's more sickening getting thumped by Bron or winning 39 games.  I can see losing but getting swept my goodness and as for the Sixer's SMH but that happens to young teams.
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Bravo!

Post  Murph on Tue May 08, 2018 6:38 am

Firing SVG was a good first step. But of course it all depends on who the Pistons bring in as GM and head coach.

I would love to see Billups hired as GM. That might be a long shot though. I'm guessing Gores will go with someone more experienced. And then it's the GMs job to hire a head coach.

Keep the faith, Pistons fans. This is a great opportunity. You never know who the next Jack McClosky or Chuck Daly might be.
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Message to Gores. Be A owner stop pretending to be one.

Post  Phil1980boy on Tue May 08, 2018 1:39 am

This is my message to Gores.

Get this s.h.i.t together.

No more rush **** Jobs.

Stop pretending to be A NBA owner. BE ONE!

Trust the process!

Draft, develop, build cap space and hire A new, fresh, head coach and let him develop the talent.

No more games! No more Hollywood S.H.I.T

Build this s.h.i.t from the ground up! This will take years! Years! But when you win, the wait will be worth it.



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Exactly...

Post  Oracle on Mon May 07, 2018 11:24 pm

You're right, nobody knows, and I meant exactly what I said, MY answer would be NO, i.e. that's my opinion, I didn't say THE answer is no.

Having said that, the probability that SVG would win enough to get into the playoffs was awfully low, having failed 75% of the time, and that's being generous, because he's self destructed the last two seasons, making stunningly stupid roster and coaching decisions.

So while I didn't rule out that he could do it, because anything is possible, i.e. he gets smarter and more focused, I just looked at the odds and drew my own conclusion.
Sparma wrote:Oracle: "Sparma wonders if SVG could have got us to the playoffs, and my answer would have to be NO!"  That's fine, we see it differently.  As long as we both realize that neither of us knows what might have been.   That's part of what makes assessments of what happens (e.g., the impact of coaching, the impact of SVG leaving) tricky; there are implicit comparisons with what might have been that take us into the unknown.  Not that probabilistic judgments can't be made (e.g., if Koufax could have pitched in '67....) so maybe that's what you're saying.

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Interesting Stuff

Post  Sparma on Mon May 07, 2018 11:14 pm

I've seen four reactions by Pistons players (the first 3 at detnews):

Reggie J says he's "stunned."  He provides the most detailed commentary, and I hear him as being genuinely distraught.  Uncertain times ahead for him.

Ish says that Stan was "really instrumental to my growth as a player."  He sounds truly grateful to Stan.

AD takes a moment to thank Stan for "everything" he's put into the team.   Here I become a bit skeptical.  Sounds pretty formal and generic.  (Earlier, there were reports that he and Griffin had met with Gores.  Also, I saw a report earlier (Wojo) about Stan's grating style getting to some players.)  

Griffin ("relayed by USA Today’s Andrew Joseph."): “He’s actually a very cool guy. Very nice guy. Funny. And actually genuinely cares about people. That’s kind of rare.” Sounds really positive. Although, of course, there's nothing positive about SVG's coaching there!

Lots of good, insightful, commentary, also on our forum.  Bill Simmons reminded us that the Pistons purportedly turned down four 1sts from Boston, opting to draft Stanley J at #8 instead.  Ugh.  If true that's a fireable offense, in retrospect at least and maybe even at the time.


Last edited by Sparma on Mon May 07, 2018 11:30 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Only [...] knows

Post  Sparma on Mon May 07, 2018 10:50 pm

Oracle: "Sparma wonders if SVG could have got us to the playoffs, and my answer would have to be NO!" That's fine, we see it differently. As long as we both realize that neither of us knows what might have been. That's part of what makes assessments of what happens (e.g., the impact of coaching, the impact of SVG leaving) tricky; there are implicit comparisons with what might have been that take us into the unknown. Not that probabilistic judgments can't be made (e.g., if Koufax could have pitched in '67....) so maybe that's what you're saying.

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OMFG!!!

Post  Oracle on Mon May 07, 2018 10:01 pm

I posted yesterday that we needed to cut SVG loose, fully believing it wouldn't happen, then.... BOOM!

I find out today that Gores, for once, had the balls to dump that no coaching azz f**ker... WOW!

I don't see a down side dumping SVG, the talent is here to make the playoff run. Sparma wonders if SVG could have got us to the playoffs, and my answer would have to be NO! He had a playoff team at the start of the year, he had one last year until he re-inserted Reggie back into the lineup and lost the team over it!

Let's face it, SVG would have found a way to F**K up this coming season, he just hasn't thought of the excuse yet, and thankfully he won't get the chance.

Wise got it 100% right, Good Riddance

DX, shoes on feet, it makes no difference, SVG don't wear shoes, because they get in the way of him shooting himself in same!

This franchise will recover, and I see good days ahead, and DX had a fantastic idea!
DX wrote:Test the trade possibilities for Markell Fultz, as Philly is drunk in love with Ben Simmons now.
Get on the horn ASAP and look into making this happen!
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Shoes On The Wrong Foot

Post  deusXango on Mon May 07, 2018 9:36 pm

SVG wasn't sh!t as coach or president for us but, let's get things straight; a President of Operations/GM should come before searching for a coaching replacement for Van Gundy. Get the best front office leadership available and allow him to hire his own coach (no 1st round pick, no hope for signing or trading for a stellar FA) there's not much else the incoming GM can do. Such is the confusion and mess SVG created and to think there are some fans angry that SVG wasn't given another year to set this franchise further back.

Perhaps now we can stop talking about how invaluable Reggie Jackson is as our starting PG; Reggie has never been a competent PG, he's a defenseless SG! He should not be kept on as part of the Pistons going forward...he's not our answer as an on court leader worthy of starting and if deployed to come off the bench, he'll be nothing but trouble...his true value at this point is a salary dump, if it can be done.

Jon Leuer should be moved also; if we can view this team as better without Morris and Harris, something is wrong should we hold onto Leuer who IMHO was the weakest of the three. That'd back us away from the luxury tax line by $27 million and at least allow us to enter the conversation for Kawhi Leonard's services. Ask not, have not.

RIDICULOUS THOUGHT:
Test the trade possibilities for Markell Fultz, as Philly is drunk in love with Ben Simmons now.

RIDICULOUS DREAM/HOPE:
Should the Pistons miraculously end up with a top three pick this year, Luca Doncic! This guy ain't no Darko before that comes up as a naysayers argument. We desperately need a dynamic starting PG, SF, or both. Reggie Jackson and Stanley Johnson ain't it.
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Do Over Dept.

Post  WTF on Mon May 07, 2018 8:13 pm

I wouldn't be oppose to giving Cheeks another run at this team since we this organization finds it so difficult to reach back into history to hire it's own to coach and run this team.   

I wouldn't be oppose to Franks either like in the case of Cheeks both suffered under the bad Joe Dumars, these weren't bad coaches just victims of a **** roster and crappy management under Joe.  Especially in the case of Cheeks IMO.  

I like the idea of Chauncey as I would if any Former Pistons player was considered for either job.  I'm so so on the idea of Stackhouse coaching and I do love Stackhouse but I'm not overly excited hearing his name being in the mix.  

As for a lot of the others being mentioned well this picking the next thing trending makes be sick.  Find someone that has history with this team, or been part of a winning tradition over a long period of time.

Another name that gets lost is Ewing as coach.  Why Not!

The best solution I think is getting the best of the best we had here.  Wouldn't it be something special if we had Zeke, CB and Hill all here in some capacity leading this organization back to greatness.
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Finally

Post  WTF on Mon May 07, 2018 7:07 pm

Good Riddance!!!!! Finally after being 2 seasons late in doing so Gore slightly came to his senses.    Now this is only half the battle because I'm not sure Gore can hire the right coach on his second attempt either.
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Nugget?

Post  Sparma on Mon May 07, 2018 3:02 pm

This detail caught my attention. First time I've heard of it. Somehow Woj get a lot of inside dope. He's just saying Barry would be a candidate for a role.

"ESPN's Adrian Wojnarowski, who first reported the news, said former player Brent Barry is a candidate for a role in the organization."
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Stan Out

Post  Sparma on Mon May 07, 2018 2:47 pm

Celebrate, but also now for the hard part: improving.

Side note: counterfactuals will make the precise effect of Stan leaving hard to gauge, at least in the short term. How would they have done with Stan on board next year? Have a winning record, in my opinion. It's in messing up our long term, high ceiling, prospects that I think Stan screwed up seriously. And he no longer seemed to be an effective coach.

What next? After making a pitch for Stackhouse here, I'd decided -- in part due to Murph's mentioning the importance of experience -- that Fizdale would be the optimal guy. He's gone. Maybe Budenholzer? I'm not such a Kidd fan, but I could be wrong.

Not sure what Arne Tellum running the show would get us, if anything. Couldn't we do better?

This is going to be a tricky business, calling for astute judgment. I'm relieved that Stan's out, but my confidence level in the longer term future still isn't high.

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What Pistons must do: We have a playoff team, always did, BUT...

Post  Oracle on Sun May 06, 2018 10:56 pm

Stan Van Gundy is not capable of coaching us there! It now falls to Gores to right this ship, and he needs to do two things right at the start!

Fire SVG and his whole crew: There's no way around this, we need new coaching and a better GM to make this roster and organization work.

I really do want to thank SVG for most of what he's done, but quite frankly, he peaked when we went to the playoffs, and I wish we knew what we know not, and dropped him then.

A new GM would be tasked with cleaning up the mess SVB has gotten us into, and a new coach would be tasked to open up the stale and out dated offense that SVG runs. 

We also need a dose of fairness! No, you don't treat rookies like vets, but you don't treat them like dirt either. SVG prejudges rookies and seeks phantom excuses to not play them. I don't care if they're not played for valid reason, and sometimes he has them, but most times it's some vague crap that makes little sense.

Point Guard is JOB 1: Keep Reggie until we can replace him, either by trade, grooming a rookie draft pick, or getting an FA, but until we get that position solidified, we're a 5th-6th seed at best.

Wake Up Calls: These are the things we MUST realize and fully understand.
1. Drummond is not the player to build around yet! We don't have a player good enough to justify building around, so for now we're looking for complementary pieces to build the framework of a good team, when and if that player shows up.
2. The Reggie Jackson story, while not over, is in transition, and not in a good direction
3. We need a coach that will play the youngsters as much as possible for the sole purpose of letting us know what we have. We can't wait until their 3/4th year, still trying to figure out if they can hit a shot or play defense.

There's more, but that's all I've got for now.
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SNL is too funny...

Post  Oracle on Sun May 06, 2018 9:43 pm

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Arnie

Post  Sparma on Sun May 06, 2018 12:09 pm

Good point about Arnie, Oracle. Never understood what happened there. He almost seemed like a miracle worker.

Oracle wrote:Yes, I agree it's too early to draw definitive conclusions, but the signs point to it being pretty much right on.

Mitchell is a player you can build a team around and it's amazing how far he's taken that team of scrubs and made them believe at such a young age. Kennard doesn't have that capability, but he doesn't need it, he's well on his way to becoming a Korver type player with a better, more rounded skill set. Korver is pretty much a one trick pony.

The sad part is that, IMO, Mitchell was the pick we really needed for the future, nobody can argue that Kennard wasn't the correct pick for the present, and in that distinction lies the mistake SVG made.

Having said that, I understand his calculation, we were projected to be real good, and additional shooting could have pushed us over the top. Problem was that SVG overestimated his coaching ability, which failed him in the fading days of the season, like it always does.

Has anyone else noticed how we tend to fade exactly when we need to win most? That's a disturbing trend, and IMO, it's partially because the team tunes him out over the course of the season.

SVG's biggest mistake? Getting rid of Arnie! We went from a team that was uncannily healthy, lose Arnie, then to a team that is injured damn near all the time... that can't be an accident!

With Arnie, I would have hope that he could do for Blake and Reggie what he did for the Dice Man, but I have no such hope now!
WTF wrote:Too early to make this assessment either way because what if Mitchell just have an average season next year that is very possible.  Now I'm not hoping that happens with Mitchell but IMO making this claims from an organization perspective or player perspective just seems far too early.  I think in some form or another we all have said that under Coach SVG either could be negatively impacted  sadly it was Kennard.  We can talk about short term but long term no way we should talking this early or compare it to the Darko scenario in any way.  

If we are going to then the last 5 lottery picks can be spoken about in the same manner.
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