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SVG

Post  Sparma on Mon Jan 22, 2018 11:41 pm

Thanks BallinD and Oracle.

SVG brings William James to mind who highlighted the choice ("Voluntarism") to maximize truth by believing many propositions or minimize falsehood by believing few (or something in between).

James himself believed a lot, but the idea seemed to be that various approaches could work.

Translated to basketball, d'Antoni illustrates maximizing the good stuff.  Maybe, maybe Vince Lombardi illustrates an extreme of avoiding error.  Steve Kerr might have the ideal balance. Different strokes.

SVG's heavily on the end of avoiding error (to some extent, I identify).  From the get go, he focused on being respectable, not being bad, more so than trying to be great.  He focused on bringing in Vets, who make fewer mistakes than youngsters, even if their ceilings aren't as high.  At the beginning of the season he spoke of focusing on what everyone did best; turned out it was his brother Jeff who encouraged that.  That the turnabout didn't last is illustrated by him pulling the Rook out after a minute, emphatic about avoiding screwing up.  And I've written too much about him keeping the guy on the bench who scores at an amazing rate in favor of the guy who bolsters the D.  He agonizes when things go wrong, and when things might be about to go wrong, grimacing his way through games.

Partly it's a generational thing.  Billy Martin and Earl Weaver were pretty negative guys, but also great managers.  Our own Larry Brown too.  But Weaver had a blueprint for greatness which included stressing the strengths of limited players, and Martin and Brown were masters of elevating the performance of their rosters (in the short team).  SVG's style's old school, but he's missing something those greats had.

I had high hopes that SVG's managerial style (improve incrementally, because the big FAs aren't coming to town) would work in a medium market, even that this would be the season the team would peak for him.

The team's got to go another way now, BallinD, Oracle, Wise, and Philip, and I all agree.  But I think there's something deep in SVG that will keep him from leading the necessary turnaround, even if Gores gives him the opportunity.
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Re: FORUM

Post  cool breeze on Mon Jan 22, 2018 11:30 pm

Oracle wrote:Right now Embiid appears to be way more effective than Drummond. From the results and evidence, who can argue that point, he's the better center.

But it doesn't have to be that way, Drummond can destroy Embiid in a matchup, he can physically dominate Embiid, but only if we recognize what Drummonds strength is.

It should be clear where Drummonds power comes from, since the reason we got so excited about him for that very reason.

Drummond, unlike Embiid, can't get his shot by himself, but with the right PG, Drummond can get damn near anything he wants, and guys like Embiid, lacking the physical power, will either get out of the way or be part of the poster!

However, that only secures Drummond on the offensive end. Defensively we need a PF that can defend. It doesn't really matter if he can score, although it would be nice if he was a stretch PF, but between Drummond, a PG, Kennard, Harris and possibly Stanley, there aren't enough balls to go around anyway.

My point is that Drummond is a franchise player to build around if you actually know how to do the building.

If management doesn't, then Drummond is a big boat anchor dragging you down!

Note: The window on the Walker trade may have slipped by us, and just say no to Russell.

Good post Oracle. I am not sure about the true impact potential AD might have in the future. I think that is the big mystery relating to this man. I do not think it would be wise to ever build a young team around AD. But I think that in time AD will be more consistent and have more of a positive impact relating to winning games if he is not labeled as the key guy. He has too many flaws to be a franchise player with a roster full of developing players or older players without first tier ability. AD might be really good if he was playing with a more mature team with two or more All Star caliber players. He needs a leader who he can look up to and respect as a player. That type of player could get more out of AD. No coach so far has had a big impact on AD relating to motivating him. Larry Brown was the right guy for Rasheed Wallace. Who is the right coach for AD? I can't think of one of the great coaches who would have patience that SVG has showed him. Yet that has made no difference. He seems poorly prepared to play early on in many games. What kind of homework has he done to prepare himself for the center he will go up against? He was not ready this time around to play against Howard. I was surprised and thought AD would be looking forward to that game. AD needs an alpha dog on his team to force AD to give everything he is capable of giving. I have no doubt that AD would be playing his ass off if Labron James was playing for the Pistons. As of now AD is just another player who has a contract larger than his worth.

If you don't mind I want to throw in this final thought. The Pistons would be very foolish to throw in any draft pick including a 2nd rounder if they have one this season. I don't care if they draft in the 20th position. The only way the Pistons will be a big winner is through the draft. The college kids are getting better and better. At some time if the Pistons keep their picks, they will score big. On the other hand, there is no player out there in the trade market that can turn around this team. I would like Kemba Walker. But Walker might be burned out by the time the Pistons get enough top tier talent to form a good playoff team. I would trade the guy who is worth the most right now and that guy is AD. I don't want to see him go but he is not a good fit for the group that currently plays for the Pistons. And I do not want Cousins for AD. He is a mental case. Moving AD could put the Pistons in a better financial position.

If nothing happens before the trade deadline I will hope for the best and our Pistons could regroup with some changes in the rotation and end on a good note. I am not sure the odds are good that it will happen but will pull for all of the players including AD until we know for sure about playoff possibilities. If the team falls completely flat again like last season, the final insult would be that he takes the position that he will not tank and play his youngsters while moving up in the first round of the draft. SVG should have been fired at the end of last season for not doing that. We have some young guys who have potential. We don't even know about Ellenson because he doesn't play. If Harris is missing his shots, Ellenson needs to take some of his minutes. SVG has no trust in Henry. We have less trust that SVG will do what is best for the Pistons in the long run. What is Tom Gores thinking? In which direction will he go if he does fire SVG? I would think about picking up Kidd. He could possibly do something positive with AD. By the way, I wouldn't mind having the Bucks backup point guard Brogdon.

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Kidd & Gores

Post  Sparma on Mon Jan 22, 2018 10:59 pm

I may be wrong, but I think that as NBA owner Gores likes to be a nice guy, so he won't be firing SVG until at least this summer.

BallinD wrote:
WTF wrote:IMO the Pistons shouldn't make a move just for the sake of getting thumped in the 1st round.  What I honestly would like to see is a Fire Sale at trade deadline.

It won't happen with SVG still in play so firing him today would need to happen to even begin thinking along those terms.

@Sparma:  Either the Bucks owners are more hungry than the Piston's owners, or they mercifully think we need an alternative to SVG, so they are offering up Jason Kidd.  Either way I like the example they are showing Gores.  Just Do It! guitar guitar
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Why build around Drummond?

Post  Oracle on Mon Jan 22, 2018 10:47 pm

Right now Embiid appears to be way more effective than Drummond. From the results and evidence, who can argue that point, he's the better center.

But it doesn't have to be that way, Drummond can destroy Embiid in a matchup, he can physically dominate Embiid, but only if we recognize what Drummonds strength is.

It should be clear where Drummonds power comes from, since the reason we got so excited about him for that very reason.

Drummond, unlike Embiid, can't get his shot by himself, but with the right PG, Drummond can get damn near anything he wants, and guys like Embiid, lacking the physical power, will either get out of the way or be part of the poster!

However, that only secures Drummond on the offensive end. Defensively we need a PF that can defend. It doesn't really matter if he can score, although it would be nice if he was a stretch PF, but between Drummond, a PG, Kennard, Harris and possibly Stanley, there aren't enough balls to go around anyway.

My point is that Drummond is a franchise player to build around if you actually know how to do the building.

If management doesn't, then Drummond is a big boat anchor dragging you down!

Note: The window on the Walker trade may have slipped by us, and just say no to Russell.
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Vision...

Post  Oracle on Mon Jan 22, 2018 10:34 pm

First, thanks for the Kidd info Wise, they waited way too long for that firing. I would have fired him right after he traded their heart and soul Brandon Knight. They still haven't been as good as they were when he was running the show. They got the 6th seed in a powerful eastern conference, and haven't been that good since. It's hard to find the level of chemistry they had between Knight and the rest of that team, and once you find it, you need to find ways to nurture it.

Second, while it's dangerous to give up on youngsters too soon, it's also dangerous to see way too much in chemistry of a couple of games. Not saying we shouldn't look long and hard to see what we have there, but expecting too much isn't too wise either.

Now on to Sparma's stellar post:
Sparma wrote:BallinD:  "Unleash Boban and I bet we start to see attendance rise. Play SJ and Kennard together for longer stretches and I bet attendance will rise." - Ballin, heaven knows they need to do something about attendance! Looking at all of those seats posing as fans last game was depressing!

That sounds like an exciting possibility.

If I were in charge, I'd go for a major overhaul now. - I don't know about major, but fairly big, and built around Drummond, more on that in my next post!

Read something heartening about Bradley at DBB: while he's crummy at team D, he's really good man to man, and that skill becomes crucial in the playoffs when offenses (other than GS and maybe the Rockets) slow way down and rely more on isos, where Bradley can really help.  Maybe a contender would be interested in a trade? Yes, Bradley is crummy at team defense, but he's amazingly crummy for this team was the general agreement of the podcast. He would be great in the playoffs, but only as long as the person he's guarding doesn't know how to easily beat him. IMO, analytics don't like him because he's only effective if someone sees he's a shrimp and falsely believes they can back him down and score. Bradley is effective if he can feel your body, but if you just blow by him he looks pretty stupid.

My point there: you got to, got to trade Bradley.  He about to walk away for nothing or get overpaid, while you've got a guy who's already about as good or better in your 1st round pick. I've been singing that song for quite some time, and I don't care who wants the credit, just move Bradley ASAP, he's a losing situation for us and now almost everybody knows it.

Much as I love Boban, if Cleveland would go for Boban and Bradley for Brooklyn's first & (?), you've got to do it. This is the single most important mission for SVG. Do whatever it takes to accomplish these two things that are closely related.
1. Make moves that return first and 2nd round picks, all while
2. Unloading salary as much as possible


But in the meantime, play your 1st rounders from the past 3 years, along with Reggie B.  I'd be happy to give Moreland JYD minutes.  Get a youth movement going. ABSOLUTELY
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Cold shooting, cold weather, fans barking at his heals and SVG paces in the coaches office wondering what went wrong

Post  cool breeze on Mon Jan 22, 2018 10:29 pm

This season is far from over yet the trade deadline is approaching. SVG must be considering the true fact that his highest paid players that he as coached for a lot of games do not lead when the going gets tough. That is what I keep thinking. When the shots do not fall easily from distance by the starting unit in the first half of games and the third quarter, I do not see where the effort picks up by the starters. I see no spark from them. None of them are real leaders who can pull out a team when things are going bad. Instead it seems that the young guys do that at times. In the last game, it was Stanley johnson who knocked heads with some of the Nets players in the paint. He made forceful drives. If you make those shots or miss them it sends a message that you at least have not given up. Andre Drummond now seems to be resting a lot until the last 5 minutes of each game. The good part is that he can stay in the game at least during crunch time and does give a powerful effort. I think the problem with the Pistons still is the same one they have had since Mr. BigShot was traded. They have no supreme leader who is among the best NBA players at his position. None of the starters are the best at their individual position and in fact are far down the list in every position but center. And our center still has a lot to learn about what it takes to win. The one thing that I will say is this. It takes time for players to gel as a team. They need to suffer through the bad times and form a bond turning a bad situation into a good one. The Pistons have beaten some of the best teams in the league. But lately things have gone into the toilet. They start games poorly missing easy shots. Then the players start pressing because they feel that loss of confidence. Then Smith goes solo trying by himself to create the offense. This team is repeating the same mistakes and you can see the starters energy sink before the end of the first quarter. Remember last season in January when everything came crashing down. Many of the same players were involved in that nightmare which lasted for the rest of the season. Opposing teams will bad records look forward to playing the Pistons. You can see that they feel very confident that if they play hard the Pistons will give up quickly in the first quarter and third quarter. Wait a minute, that is when our starters are playing. Who would have guessed it?

Now the talk is about D'Angelo Russell. We already have players on our team that do not play point guard who are better than Russell if they could get a shot at playing that position. How about Kennard having the ball in his hands more and playing Smith no more than 20 minutes a game? Kemba Walker got me excited. I imagine that every team in the league has given SVG the thumbs down on Reggie Jackson.

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Can We Fire Him Yesterday?

Post  BallinD on Mon Jan 22, 2018 8:56 pm

WTF wrote:IMO the Pistons shouldn't make a move just for the sake of getting thumped in the 1st round.  What I honestly would like to see is a Fire Sale at trade deadline.

It won't happen with SVG still in play so firing him today would need to happen to even begin thinking along those terms.

@Sparma: Either the Bucks owners are more hungry than the Piston's owners, or they mercifully think we need an alternative to SVG, so they are offering up Jason Kidd. Either way I like the example they are showing Gores. Just Do It! guitar guitar
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You See Gores It's Easy To Do

Post  WTF on Mon Jan 22, 2018 8:20 pm

Bucks wrote:"We appreciate everything that Jason has done for the Bucks organization, but we have decided to make a coaching change," Bucks general manager Jon Horst said in a statement. "We believe that a fresh approach and a change in leadership are needed to continue elevating our talented team towards the next level, bringing us closer to our goal of competing for championships.

Grow a pair and fire SVG
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Cash In All The Big Chips

Post  WTF on Mon Jan 22, 2018 8:12 pm

IMO the Pistons shouldn't make a move just for the sake of getting thumped in the 1st round.  What I honestly would like to see is a Fire Sale at trade deadline.

It won't happen with SVG still in play so firing him today would need to happen to even begin thinking along those terms.
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Re: FORUM

Post  BallinD on Mon Jan 22, 2018 8:10 pm

Sparma wrote:

My point there: you got to, got to trade Bradley.  He about to walk away for nothing or get overpaid, while you've got a guy who's already about as good or better in your 1st round pick. !Clearly, and that is the point of not trying to win now (checkers moves) but position ourselves to win it all (chess).  I fear SVG is a decent checkers player but a piss poor chess player!

Much as I love Boban, if Cleveland would go for Boban and Bradley for Brooklyn's first & (?), you've got to do it.  Agreed!

But in the meantime, play your 1st rounders from the past 3 years, along with Reggie B.  I'd be happy to give Moreland JYD minutes.  Get a youth movement going. Yes!

If you've got Boban, play him as many minutes as Pops did in his last year there.  Cut AD's minutes just a touch, guaranteeing max effort.  Likely Boban's worth more to us (or to a smart coach) then he is on the trade market now.

SVG needs to go, but that's unlikely to happen during the season.  He's got some executive skills, but not the right ones for a true rebuild.  Too worried about failing, but not willing to really shoot for the stars.  Master of Panic

Great Post Sparma.  He may be getting closer to using his cranium (complex thoughts) and ignoring his amygdala (fear) as the season wears on and losing catches up to Old Yeller , who quacks like a dog so much, people begin to openly question his stupidities!  Maybe it's time for Jeff Van Gundy to whisper at him again!
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Vision

Post  Sparma on Mon Jan 22, 2018 6:05 pm

BallinD: "Unleash Boban and I bet we start to see attendance rise. Play SJ and Kennard together for longer stretches and I bet attendance will rise."

That sounds like an exciting possibility.

If I were in charge, I'd go for a major overhaul now.

Read something heartening about Bradley at DBB: while he's crummy at team D, he's really good man to man, and that skill becomes crucial in the playoffs when offenses (other than GS and maybe the Rockets) slow way down and rely more on isos, where Bradley can really help. Maybe a contender would be interested in a trade?

My point there: you got to, got to trade Bradley. He about to walk away for nothing or get overpaid, while you've got a guy who's already about as good or better in your 1st round pick.

Much as I love Boban, if Cleveland would go for Boban and Bradley for Brooklyn's first & (?), you've got to do it.

But in the meantime, play your 1st rounders from the past 3 years, along with Reggie B. I'd be happy to give Moreland JYD minutes. Get a youth movement going.

If you've got Boban, play him as many minutes as Pops did in his last year there. Cut AD's minutes just a touch, guaranteeing max effort. Likely Boban's worth more to us (or to a smart coach) then he is on the trade market now.

Anyone can go for the right offer, but AD would need to fetch a real premium, as would the kids.

Harris likely would get a nice return now. Reggie J pretty well needs to go, but you'd probably need to let him come back from injury before you could trade him (this summer). Tolliver's made an outstanding contribution, but his deal's up, so trade him. Might anyone be willing to trade for Galloway if he could be the sharp shooter of early this summer?

SVG needs to go, but that's unlikely to happen during the season. He's got some executive skills, but not the right ones for a true rebuild. Too worried about failing, but not willing to really shoot for the stars.
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Narratives and Belief Systems

Post  BallinD on Mon Jan 22, 2018 3:23 pm

As the world turns, and five losses pile up, helping to clear the fairy dust from the eyes of scribes, pundits, fans and probably Piston players, and possibly, Piston Coaches, the question remains: What To Do? Shocked

I think I have hammered at the idea that SVG obfuscates (talks out of both sides of his mouth) to cover his confusion, and abysmal performance.  He doesn't motivate, he deflates. He is the "fat fairy" spreading his fairy dust around to slappies (best interview, great quips, honest, good coach, harsh taskmaster, stubborn but fair)

But maybe, just maybe, the wheels have come off his narrative that they simply don't defend hard enough, so that is why they lose.  Good coach harsh task master, stubborn but fair, goes the narrative about SVG, but while he bloviates about defense, is that a cover for an addled, fearful, panic junkie mindset that simply will not allow him to see clearly and coach effectively.  And that his offense is a mess! The King has no clothes on. Who will see it and say it? facepalm  facepalm

That may be changing.  The dust may be coming out of his eyes and maybe even he can begin to see that he is the problem here?

According to Pistons,com; Langlois:
 DETROIT – "Amid the depths of a five-game losing streak that’s dragged the Pistons below .500 for the first time all season, it’s easy to spot what’s wrong: offense."

For Langlois to write that means at long last the official narrative has changed.  Kennard's emergence has embarrassed him a little and that's a problem?!?! Perhaps part of the problem is that it is possible that with Avery in a prolonged slump and has become a chucker (KCP clone) he fears to address the problem that his rookie shooting guard may soon be -- if not now -- outperforming his veteran who is playing poorly under Stupid Van Gundy for his next NBA contract as an unrestricted free agent.

The headline presents this as a problem for SVG to solve, a risk:  "As Pistons offense sputters, does SVG risk the chemistry of Johnson-Kennard?"

Groundhogs Day here again: Stankey has emerged aggressively barking and attacking like the Junk Yard Dog once again, but this time it seems he has more confidence and is hitting shots, and loves playing with Kennard, who is already probably our BEST PLAYMAKER.

I would love to see the young synergy of those two grow up together, partly because I want to believe that Stankey can become Stanley (the self-proclaimed best player in his draft class).  The eye test says they have synnergy and impact the game in different ways, but in complementary ways, offensive power/ defensive power.  

I've probably been Stankey's biggest critic on this forum from day one, when it became apparent the kid could barely ever complete a freaking layup in traffic in the NBA, had no hops, no handle, NO SHOT, but did have an amazingly chiseled, muscular body that led all the slappies to default to "Man-Crush" mode and declare he was athletic, young and showed he could handle Lebron.  False, but you guys know what I mean.  What he is though, is a pretty good defender and a decent secondary playmaker.  Key Word Is Playmaker.

I have long maintained that what we really need is more playmakers, players who can unselfishly handle the rock,  see the floor, make the right reads and shoot or pass as needed out of fast-moving fluid offensive sets.  I am willing to see if SJ can grow into that role and with Kennard and Ellensen, lead the charge.  It will take years and some trades (Weggie, Leuer, Bradley), but it is the only way out.

I was probably one of the first to champion Kennard, even before we drafted him. as That Guy, because despite moderate athleticism compared to say Donovan Mitchel, he is a baller of the first order, much more than simply a shooter, because he is poised, unselfish, can shoot the rock and can break it down off the dribble for himself or others.  He is crafty.  Some say his future comp is Ginobli or Chris Mullins, and that is what I see in him, even some young, Larry Bird in a smaller frame.  

I see Bullock as a guy who needs more shots.  He is our most efficient shooter, but routinely goes 3-5, 1-2 from three, and that is in games where Tobias goes something like 6-17, and Bradley goes 5-19.  Why not conscientiously get this guy more shots, just a few of those attempts for Bradley (chucker) and Tobias (chucker).  SVG has no idea how to build a real team of complimentary pieces.  

The ugly stupidity of his handling of Boban rankles because Old Yeller (SVG) quacks like a dog here and clearly, stubbornly refuses to play this amazingly gifted player who the fans love, the players love and advanced statistics love.  Unleash Boban and I bet we start to see attendance rise. Play SJ and Kennard together for longer stretches and I bet attendance will rise.  Develop a synergy there and attendance will rise.  

It is a Bitches Brew that Old Yeller has to navigate, and while there are risks, the rewards are to have a real team, not a bunch of middling players trying mightily to elevate their game at the expense of team ball.  That could be the new narrative, to have a real team in the Bad Boys tradition as WTF stated so clearly.  

That's enough philosophizing for today.  Sorry for the long post!  Go Pistons, death to the Pusstons!  lol lol
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Good article with details on how and why Kennard and Johnson have the right chemistry

Post  cool breeze on Mon Jan 22, 2018 2:28 pm

Johnson provided the details on why he and Kennard are more successful when playing together. One has to wonder if SVG and his assistant coaches recognized those details at all. Both Kennard and Johnson have high basketball IQs. Both know what will work well and what won't work. Does this coaching staff or either Smith or Jackson ever think like Johnson and Kennard do? Those comments by Johnson could have been something Zeke would have said in his day as a player. The difference is that Zeke was the Pistons point guard and team leader. We have leaders on this team who do not know that they don't know but they think they know. This mindless running around in and out of the paint in an effort to create by point guards should only be used in desperation instead of making it the norm and thus causing great dysfunction. Kennard can feed off of the skill set of Johnson and vise versa. They are both thinking 2 or 3 plays ahead while the point guards only have the ability to think one play ahead and that play is unknown to them until they start the dribbling and probing process. Harris gets the ball where he doesn't want to shoot it. Nobody who tries to set screens and move without the ball has any impact. Meanwhile, the coaching staff gets off on their on ball point guard creators. Nero fiddles while Rome burns. The fans try to keep their eyes open to fight the boredom. Detroit Piston fans are not stupid. We want smart players especially those who play point guard. We are recognizing that the coaches do not have very good judgment as to what is needed out of our point guards to have a successful team. Our coaches are looking for the point guards with the wrong skill set. They are content to sign point guards who pose a liability for the team on defense while dominating and causing dysfunction on offense. Their point guards do not know the strengths or weaknesses of their teammates. There seems to be no consideration by the point guards at all that part of their job is to make their teammates better on both defense and offense. It is all about how well will they play from game to game instead of how well they can make their teammates play the game of basketball. This is first level play that our coaches either do not know or have forgotten.

Our coaches must wonder when AD will ever box out on the defensive glass in crunch time. It seems to never enter his mind. He thinks that he can just stand and get those rebounds when the game is on the line. LaVert out smarted him this time but it seems that players on every team are crashing the offensive glass hard in crunch time these days knowing they have a great shot to get the winning put back over or around AD. But great shot by AD in the closing seconds was terrific. He showed great heart and determination to score the ball when it mattered. Maybe it will take a little longer before everything clicks for AD and he can be above average in every category. He is above average in some so for sure he is not the worst player on the team. We just need him to be the best center in the league to get the Pistons out of this mess.

It takes time for a young team to learn how to win. But the fans must see great effort to keep their attention. Young players like Ronde Hollis Jefferson gave more effort and showed me that he has put in some extensive work to improve his offense in the off season. As a college player Jefferson was an amazing defender and high energy type player. But he couldn't make a shot beyond 3 feet from the basket. His jumps shot was very primitive. Jefferson is a winner. He and Dinwiddie can give Nets fans something to be hopeful for and show up for their home games. Both players can defend multiple positions and will only get better on offense. Great job by their head coach and Nets management to identify winning type players that fans can actually like. One has to wonder how much further along Johnson and Ellenson might be if they were playing with the Nets. Just how is that fast paced out of control dribble happy point guard domination of the offense working off SVG? Are you loving it? And how is the use of weak defenders occupying the point guard position working out? It is hard to play fast after made baskets. When the shots are not falling by the players the coach counts on and those same players do not lead the team by giving a supreme effort on defense, fans start picking apart every decision the coach and GM make. It is only human nature to do it. WE NEED AT LEAST ONE REAL POINT GUARD FOR THE FUTURE. Please give us one. Stop the circus act. It is not fair to the other players. We can't tell what there real potential might be. And SVG must think that once Reggie Jackson returns everything will be cool. Who will Reggie guard? Will it be Beal or Wall? Who will Smith guard? I saw him defending a 6 foot 7 inch player not long ago. How can he guard Spencer? SVG can't be planning for the future. He is looking for average now.

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Long Post

Post  WTF on Mon Jan 22, 2018 12:38 pm

Members of this forum are a dying breed and we've been at this for a very long time supporting this team of ours.  If you were fortunate enough to witness our Championship runs and struggle with the Teal Years of Grant Hill then your likely as old as I am.   

i really feel bad for all of us because it does truly makes me sad deep down that we have come to a point of settling on what we know deep down isn't what Pistons Basketball is all about.   I hate that we as fans, this organization, and the media have forgotten or placed aside our tradition over the years of what Pistons DNA looks like.  

I think about the players we cheered and those we jeered over time and even though we latched on to our own personal favorites I think we kept it honest and real.  I mean we didn't make excuse and lower the bar,  I recall many of us being critical about a team that frequent the ECF 8 straight seasons and yet we sit and kid ourselves about this current group of players.  We constantly make excuses for them they either too young or give them time or whatever it is to make ourselves feel better about them.

While I remember a time when we didn't make excuses for our players, I don't think there was ever a time when we said similar things about Rodman or Salley,  hell I don't think we said things like this about Hunter or Houston because we expected nothing but hard work and great effort out of players.  We certainly weren't say these things about Zeke and Tripucka when we drafted them at least not at the rate we doing with players like Andre, SJ, and so on and what makes it so heartbreaking is we're questioning their heart and effort and not their talent most of the time.

As I said time and time again I don't care what kind of stats Andre have/has he doesn't have half the heart of many centers that passed through here over the years.  I talking those that have won and not won Championships,  Buhdah, Lamb, Big Ben, Mills, Lanier, Okur, Bison, Polynice, West, Ratliff, can you remember Don Reid F/C?  Remember the heart and effort of this guy before injuries, remember we all had big hopes for this guy simply based on the DNA he had.  

What I can say about all those guys I mentioned above and I'm sure I forgotten a few is that they were all tougher and smarter players than what we get  from Andre and that if Andre played with half the heart and effort as any of them he'll likely be leading this team to the Next Level and earning every dime of that huge ass contract he signed. 

When do we raise the bar back to the standards that Zeke and other set for themselves and this organization.  This **** is crazy and I wish it would change.   I don't like where this team is going and where it's likely to end up not just this season but many seasons moving forward.  We need to fire SVG and get some Pistons DNA here running things, We need to draft players that have that DNA,  players that want to win, and work hard.  Right now we have players collecting pay checks with no real accountability.  If Zeke was on a 5 game losing streak **** would be hitting the fan, the same with CB and Big Ben, people would be called to the carpet and that includes the coach.
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Misleading messages?

Post  Sparma on Mon Jan 22, 2018 12:03 pm

I agree with BD that SVG's becoming deceptive.

SVG: "I don't know what's with us right now," coach Stan Van Gundy said. "We're not playing hard enough consistently enough. We play at hard times. I thought we fought our way back and really gave it a good fight from being down 15. We're not consistent enough at the defensive end and that I don't understand."

As I described, we went down 15 after a 13-4 stretch with Moreland in. It wasn't that they weren't trying hard defensively during that stretch. To his credit, Moreland works as hard, if not harder, then anyone defensively. I'm not even sure we "really gave it a good fight from being down 15." SVG switched out Moreland, and put in Tolliver, and that started the turn around. Was that group working harder than with Moreland in there? I doubt it. Tolliver's just the better player, and that combination worked better. The catching up resulted more from having better combinations of player out there than from effort, even if effort made some differ. Yes, you need effort, but strategy and execution are crucial. Maybe last year there was a deficiency of effort with Reggie J and Andre, but by and large that's not what I'm seeing this year. Effort's necessary, but at the NBA referring to "effort" is often a lazy, or deliberately hazy, interpretation of what's going on.

I didn't see the first quarter, so maybe Drummond was working harder in the 4th than in the 1st. But I think SVG's putting some misleading stuff out there. Interpreted charitably, it could be him covering for a player: something like: Moreland works as hard as any player in the NBA but he's just not good enough to do what I've been asking from him. Or maybe SVG's underlying thought is: we're really mediocre on O, so as a team we need to work like fiends on D to give ourselves a chance with our shaky O. Instead of putting it like that, I'll just focus on the importance of defensive effort.

Whatever, I for one have lost a ton of faith in SVG. He doesn't develop young players effectively, he doesn't manage the roster well. A contrast with Larry Brown: we were outstanding on plays drawn up on timeouts with him. Not so with SVG. What happened the other day, with Ish -- a non-shooter -- inbounding at the end of the game and then, not surprisingly, getting the ball back (did he shovel it to Bradley for a miss?) What a mess.
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Stick it to his AZZ SPINCE!

Post  Phil1980boy on Mon Jan 22, 2018 3:01 am

Good for you SPENCE! Stick it to Stan Van Gundy's stubborn, hard head azz!

Hey Stan! WIN NOW WITH THIS Question?

Who would you prefer as your starting PG moving forward? Spencer or Reggie Jackson? lol lol lol

See, this is where win now gets short sighted Head Coaches/GM's in trouble.

This is why A head coach does not make A good GM.

Luke Kennard Name should never come up in any trade talks. Kid is too young, too talented and too good to even consider trading.

Even more then I blame Van Gundy, I blame Gores. Not A good owner at all. I wish Mr. I and his Organization would have landed the Pistons... Then this Organization would be moving in the right direction.

This team is A F.U.C.K.I.N.G JOKE. Build for the FUTURE and stop this WIN NOW BULL S.H.I.T conversation! Get A high draft and get the s.h.i.t right.

Any organization who is comfortable playing for the 7th and 8th seed every year has A loser fan base, loser owner, loser coaches, loser players, losers mentality.

Right now the Pistons are being lead by LOSERS! Things need to change FAST!
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Ballin

Post  Oracle on Mon Jan 22, 2018 2:27 am

Yes, that was my first response, but I can't deny you make a compelling case.

I commented earlier that I wasn't sure if SVG had lost his team, but I'm sure he's lost us and other knowledgeable fans. To be honest, I'm in total shock that we're where we are.

I picked 42 wins mostly because I wasn't confident that Reggie was fully recovered. However, while I know we miss him, I simply can't believe that we miss him this much, the problems are deeper!
BallinD wrote:@Oracle:  Yes, your response is reasonable under reasonable circumstances, and I am not in disagreement, but yet it plays to the argument that players win games, not coaches.  I can definitely see your point and yet these are not reasonable circumstances, I fear.

Under reasonable circumstances we would not have a buffoon for a coach who for the past umpteen losses replays the broken record that we did not defend, didn't try hard enough.  Reasonable circumstances would not put this question to him but after five losses in a row, I think it is fair to question defensive strategy, which is his purview.  He IMO is mostly ducking and dodging the real issues with this team and using a convenient scapegoat of poor defense to hide his abysmal coaching skills, by saying they just did not try hard enough to defend.  

So I think it is fitting to turn the tables on his narrative and ask him what did he do to help this time, did he make the necessary adjustment?  Well he had a timeout at his disposal and at least two brain cells to rub together.  He could have seen that Dinwidde was hot, balling out, and highly motivated to use his 6'6" to score, but he's got Ish out there on a clear must-have defensive stop.  But if defense is so damn important, and if we really needed this win, which we did, then it is clear he failed to coach up and get a bigger body on Dinwidde.  But he did nothing, he of the big mouth.  Why was Ish in there on a defensive stop last play of the game scenario?

Jus Sayin.  Yeah, not a fan of the fat man.
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The Way You Do The Things You Do

Post  BallinD on Mon Jan 22, 2018 12:04 am

@Oracle:  Yes, your response is reasonable under reasonable circumstances, and I am not in disagreement, but yet it plays to the argument that players win games, not coaches.  I can definitely see your point and yet these are not reasonable circumstances, I fear.

Under reasonable circumstances we would not have a buffoon for a coach who for the past umpteen losses replays the broken record that we did not defend, didn't try hard enough.  Reasonable circumstances would not put this question to him but after five losses in a row, I think it is fair to question defensive strategy, which is his purview.  He IMO is mostly ducking and dodging the real issues with this team and using a convenient scapegoat of poor defense to hide his abysmal coaching skills, by saying they just did not try hard enough to defend.  

So I think it is fitting to turn the tables on his narrative and ask him what did he do to help this time, did he make the necessary adjustment?  Well he had a timeout at his disposal and at least two brain cells to rub together.  He could have seen that Dinwidde was hot, balling out, and highly motivated to use his 6'6" to score, but he's got Ish out there on a clear must-have defensive stop.  But if defense is so damn important, and if we really needed this win, which we did, then it is clear he failed to coach up and get a bigger body on Dinwidde.  But he did nothing, he of the big mouth.  Why was Ish in there on a defensive stop last play of the game scenario?

Jus Sayin.  Yeah, not a fan of the fat man.
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Stuff...

Post  Oracle on Sun Jan 21, 2018 11:09 pm

@Ballin, @Sparma - Yes, putting Ish on Dinwiddie might have been a mistake, but Ish did slow him down a bit to allow Andre to pressure the shot, Dinwiddie just hit a tough shot. It's hard for me to assign blame, I feel more comfortable tipping my hat to Dinwiddie(as they should/would have to Drummond if we won) for a great play under pressure.

As Don pointed out, it does show the danger of giving up on young players too soon. I see Dinwiddie much like Stanley, caught up in SVG's house of horrors and looking bad from the experience. With the body Stanley has, there's no excuse for him not playing like this every night, if SVG can get out of his way.

This team also shows the danger of falling in love with a player before you research or know anything about them.
https://www.detroitbadboys.com/2018/1/21/16917460/pistons-vs-nets-final-score-dinwiddie-gets-revenge-drops-pistons-101-100 wrote:The most important things of note for the Pistons were that Stanley Johnson and Luke Kennard were really good and Avery Bradley continues to be terrible at basketball.

Johnson scored 18 points, which is his highest point total in nearly two years. Kennard put up 13 points and was a reliable threat from deep. Meanwhile Bradley scored just 7 points on 3-12 shooting.
Bradley continues to stink, even if it's not all his fault. He's living the SVG curse, and only SVG can free him with a mercy trading at the deadline.
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SVG answers

Post  Sparma on Sun Jan 21, 2018 10:49 pm

Addressing guarding Spencer with Ish at the end, SVG in effect says: it's on me. (http://www.detroitnews.com/videos/sports/nba/pistons/2018/01/21/stan-van-gundy-after-pistons-loss-nets/109693704/)

I'd didn't hear an answer to my question about Moreland though.  Of course, I would have gone in a different direction immediately with AD in foul trouble.  What frustrated me especially though is that the Moreland substitution was working so badly that SVG called a second TO, but then stuck Moreland back in there, for a second bad stretch, before coming to his senses and trying something different.

He looked/ sounded even more downhearted than usual in the post-game interview.  Solutions before Wednesday?

BallinD wrote:Why in the He!! was ish guarding the stache on that last play, SVG?  He's 5-10" or something against 6-6."  The coaches job is to give his team a chance to win, but that makes so little sense, I guess it had to make sense to Van Gumby.
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That is what happens when you give up on your young players too soon. Spencer Dinwiddie gave SVG the middle finger

Post  cool breeze on Sun Jan 21, 2018 9:25 pm

What a shot by AD with 4 seconds left on the clock. That made up for AD once again failing to block out in the paint allowing LaVert to sneak in for that big offensive rebound earlier. Great games by both Spencer and Stanley Johnson. SVG thought long and hard on the type of point guards he wanted to lead our Pistons. He has failed miserably. Meanwhile anyone who had watched Spencer lead his Colorado team in college would know he is a fantastic player. Now Dinwiddie has found a coach who has trust in him. That was all he ever needed. SVG never gave him a chance to succeed. Dinwiddie at 6 foot 6 inches tall must have been too tall.

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Riddle Me This Batmen

Post  BallinD on Sun Jan 21, 2018 7:55 pm

Why in the He!! was ish guarding the stache on that last play, SVG? He's 5-10" or something against 6-6." The coaches job is to give his team a chance to win, but that makes so little sense, I guess it had to make sense to Van Gumby.
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Again

Post  WTF on Sun Jan 21, 2018 7:42 pm

This stuff is just too funny and too sad at the same time but I'll laugh before I cry.   There's only so much positive spinning you can put on this whole team collectively they're going nowhere.   

Even they had managed to pull this game out I wasn't going to be happy with it, but I guess I'll never be happy until I actual see Next Level effort and results out this bunch.  IMO this team is as good as it's going to be until massive roster changes are made and SVG gets fired.
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It's on me

Post  Sparma on Sun Jan 21, 2018 7:36 pm

First: great game by Dinwiddie including the dagger at the end. Good for him.

Secondly: great game by Stanley J. Kelser commenting on one play about him being committed in going to the basket. Let's not give him away (even though I'm happy to include him in a good trade).

O.k.: Drummond goes out in the 3rd with his 4th foul, Pistons down 6. Moreland comes in, makes a couple of nice offensive plays, but the team struggles tremendously to score with him in there, and is outscored 13-4 during that stretch. SVG raises his hand, as if asking what he can do. Tolliver comes in for a small line up, playing C for a spell, and the Pistons begin to catch up. Even Kelser pointed out that Moreland wasn't being defended, demonstrating with a replay. Twice I saw Zeller playing 8 feet (!!!) off of him, daring him to shoot. The first time Moreland drove in, scoring on a nice mini hook, so credit to him there.

Here's a case where having played might make a difference, but maybe it's just an obvious point: it's devastating to the O when the opposing center can sag off, in effect adding a roving defender to double wherever needed. That puts the O at an enormous disadvantage!! When you lose by 1 you can point to a bunch of things, but that 13-4 stretch was killer. Moreland at -9 in 10 minutes, one off of the team worst -10 by Reggie B.

Indeed, SVG: it's on you.


BallinD wrote:Is it just me, or has Van Gumby lost this team with his Panic Mastery, yapping, wacko rotations, riding the cold hand, poor inbounds plays, stubborness, payroll management, lack of imagination and his quacking like a dog?  clown clown

Or he could trade Bradley (like a mercy killing) and Weggie, Galloway, SJ (another mercy killing), then commit seppuku (the final mercy killing). facepalm  Andre said he wants to get in on some of that action...mercy killing.  After all it is only Brooklyn.
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It couldn't be true, but it is...

Post  Oracle on Sun Jan 21, 2018 7:25 pm

Andre Drummond almost scores the winning basket... but Dinwiddie completes his revenge!!!!

Ballin, I don't know if SVG has lost the team yet, but he's getting there!

Good stuff:
1. Kennard is really the real deal, he just needs more PT, his defense is so so, but that's not his calling card!
2. Stanley Johnson showed me some flashes of why I used to be high on him, can he keep it up?

Other than that, we're a below .500 team again, which is a proof SVG needs replacing.
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