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You Can't Make This Stuff Up!

Post  BallinD on Sat Feb 24, 2018 6:28 pm

Out of the horses mouth:

Van Gundy said there's been no talk of moving Smith back to the second unit and starting Nelson or either of the other two point guard options (Langston Galloway or Dwight Buycks).  He put muzzles on his staff so they wont bring up annoying ideas that challenge his belief systems and schemes?

"We've got a lineup that's working," Van Gundy said. "You want to mess with that?"  He actually said that?!

He could go back to either Galloway or Buycks as Smith's backup. He could try Galloway at shooting guard in place of Kennard. But he's not sure if that would make an appreciable difference.  He's never sure of anything.  It never occurred to him to try to space the floor for Blake, who has been put in a horrible position.  It never occurred to him that maybe that is the bench problem scoring.  It never occurred to him that spacing is important in the Modern NBA. facepalm  
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Modern NBA According to Clippers

Post  BallinD on Sat Feb 24, 2018 6:11 pm

Pivot on a Dime:

"Last July, the Clippers signed Griffin to a five-year, $173 million maximum contract after an elaborate free agency presentation in which they celebrated Griffin as a "Clipper for life."

"We have to add some pieces obviously, but I think we're building for what I think is the modern NBA, and that trend has only accelerated since we signed Blake last summer."
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Re: FORUM

Post  cool breeze on Sat Feb 24, 2018 5:25 pm

WTF wrote:This is what they'll do in the next 14 games all things being equal and there are no injuries on either side.   By the time this onslaught is over they will be in the 10th or 11th spot in the conference.   If I was SVG at this point I would shut down both AD, and Blake if not then both need to fake injuries to keep them out the rest of the season.

The way our Pistons are currently performing they will be lucky to win even two games but several teams will be tanking to move up in the draft so maybe Detroit will win a few more than 2. Personally I would be happy to see both AD and BG on the bench for the rest of the season even though we don't have a first round pick. Bring back the motion offense and see what Henry Ellenson can do with extended minutes as a starter. Force all players to not give in to shooting contested 3 point shots. Anyone who does it goes to the bench.

During all of the low points when the Pistons are blown out in the first half bring our our secret weapon at halftime. Reggie Jackson could come out in uniform and show off how his ankle is healing. He could show off secret tricks as to how ( when healthy) Reggie catches his breath before launching into a one man show in the Piston half court set.  One trick is to walk the ball up after opponent made shots to eliminate 8 seconds from the shot clock. Reggie could do this work shop thing at halftime for the rest of the season. If AD is benched for the rest of the season he could join Reggie in the workshop.  AD can provide his insight on why it is important to keep your back to the player you are supposed to be guarding while never turning to see where that player might be crashing the boards from on the court. Also AD can show how to keep your arms down to your sides at all times and never attempt to deny the basketball when your assigned man has good position in the low post. I am sure being Tom Gores is in the entertainment industry that he will approve of the work shop idea. The fans could get to know our All Star player in a personal way. Too damn bad we have no number one pick and Blake Griffin and AD's big salaries. That is not a laughing matter.

On the other hand, maybe now the Pistons have hit rock bottom including SVG and his coaching staff. Maybe now SVG will reconsider using Blake with the 2nd unit at the center position. But I agree watching the games might be more interesting if both Griffin and Drummond were permanently sitting on the bench. Do they have anything in their contracts preventing that from happening? Boston's 3rd string center dominates the Pistons and our All Star center as well as superstar Blake Griffin.

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The Sh!tshow That Keeps On Giving

Post  BallinD on Sat Feb 24, 2018 5:00 pm

Eight Days off and all SVG could come up with (cue in sound of crickets) Same starters, Same Iso-Blake Scheme, Same rotation, Same refusal to adapt to what is right in front of him,  Maybe that is the key takeaway; he is a dinosaur, because Stan has got to be the most stubborn, non-creative, oblivious, disingenuous coach we've seen here in a while, and that's saying a lot.  Lame Duck!   Kuester

I agree Wise. I do not expect them to win many games before they go on their west coast swing, which to me means they will probably be out of it by the March 9 Chicago game, our first likely win of the post ASB.  By then, I expect that maybe SVG may make an adjustment or two; maybe he will decide to share a pizza and Philly Cheese sub with his road dawg and fellow foodie Jameer Nelson.  Gotta think Big! lol!

WTF wrote:This is what they'll do in the next 14 games all things being equal and there are no injuries on either side.   By the time this onslaught is over they will be in the 10th or 11th spot in the conference.   If I was SVG at this point I would shut down both AD, and Blake if not then both need to fake injuries to keep them out the rest of the season.
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2-12

Post  WTF on Sat Feb 24, 2018 3:47 pm

This is what they'll do in the next 14 games all things being equal and there are no injuries on either side.   By the time this onslaught is over they will be in the 10th or 11th spot in the conference.   If I was SVG at this point I would shut down both AD, and Blake if not then both need to fake injuries to keep them out the rest of the season.
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Blowout loss due to more than missed 3 point shots

Post  cool breeze on Sat Feb 24, 2018 3:33 pm

The Pistons were in the game through the 3rd quarter although they were always behind. I think the Pistons had a good chance of establishing a nice lead if certain things hadn't happened that has been happening now for two seasons.

First off I know everyone is tired of me picking on AD. But once again everyone could see that Boston's 3rd string center was out playing AD all night long. But to add insult to injury, Greg Monroe made a complete fool out of AD in the 2nd half. Next game just watch AD and ignore everyone else when the Pistons are on defense. Then you will see what grinds on me. I can provide specific evidence for you so you can go back and watch the game again if you have it recorded.
5:32 minute mark 3rd quarter:Boston creates turnover caused by Johnson trying to get pass into AD. Tice sprints from baseline to baseline leaving AD in the dust and gets pass under the basket and makes easy bank shot over Ish Smith. AD is nowhere to be seen for what I counted when playing this back was 7 seconds. AD was at the free throw in 7 seconds after the shot went up by Tice. No urgency - no engagement by our player making $20 plus million a year. Tice was working harder all night long then AD. How could that be? That score was followed by a wild shot attempt by Blake Griffin that had no chance followed by a wild contested 3 point shot by Bullock with no chance of going in the basket. Followed on the next possession by another contested wild 3 point shot attempt by Tolliver and a miss. I just ask the question why? Why all the 3s and why are the shots launched so quickly when a defender in right on the shooter? Why doesn't Bullock dribble a few steps in for a closer shot or go to the rim? He is capable of scoring in other ways then shooting 3s. Throughout the last part of the 3rd quarter the only player who played the right way was Smith. He played great and had to cover for players like AD who was always AWOL in the paint on defense. To prove this point I submit the following evidence for people like Murph who like to protect our All Star center.
Late in the 3rd the Pistons call a timeout. After the timeout the only bright spot was Smith driving and scoring into the paint. After he makes that shot, Greg Monroe manhandled our All Star center for the rest of the night. Check out the 3:08 minute mark of the 3rd quarter. The Pistons are back on defense and Monroe sets a high screen about 3 feet above the free throw line on the left side of the court in Boston's half court set. Smith gets over the high screen doing great and had his body between his man and the basket. Meanwhile, Monroe rolls down to the left low post. AD has his arms dandling down at his sides when Smith works hard to get over the high screen. AD is guarding nobody at this time and is watching Boston's guard, Monroe and Smith. AD then doesn't react when Monroe rolls all the way down and sets up on the white line on the baseline low post under the basket. AD doesn't move over or attempt to deny the ball coming to Monroe. Then Monroe passes the ball back to Brown who shoots a jump shot and misses. AD doesn't box out Monroe or Brown who is crashing the boards. AD just stands having no vision to see either where Monroe might be or Brown, Brown deflects the ball off the rim and retrieves the basketball. Meanwhile AD continues to stand while Monroe once again sets up on the white line on the left low post. This time Monroe gets the ball as AD doesn't think to get his butt over to deny that pass. And then Greg gets the ball and easily pushes Drummond back one step an makes a shot one foot from the basket. I see no expression on AD's face like he is pissed off at himself at all. This is all OK and part of the NBA game as far as AD is concerned. From that point on I watched every half court set by Boston and in every instance, AD never bothered to fight Monroe for his low post position. Monroe always got exactly what he wanted. I say this to all Piston fans. There is no way in hell any team can win anything when your highest paid athletes perform like AD did last night. There were so many other players making mistakes on this Piston team that perhaps few Piston fans even noticed how both Tice and Monroe had their way in the paint whenever they made the effort to do it. I never saw AD attempt to box out anyone all night long. He never knows where his man is located when an opposing shot goes up. His back is to his man most of the time. That is an amazing fact. That means our team has zero chance of success even if they are shooting the lights out with those stupid 3 point shot attempts.

One coaching blunder has to change. Our highly paid coach has tried to use Blake Griffin at center with the 2nd unit. It doesn't work and never will work. I was not in favor of this dumb trade when we gave up Harris and Bradley for Griffin. Other teams wanted Bradley. Other teams wanted Harris. and we gave up our number one pick. Griffin has never been a super star player like Labron James. If the Pistons had James we would still be fighting and possibly not making the playoffs. Griffin is trying too hard to provide the Pistons with a superstar. He plays hard but cannot make shots the way he is currently trying to score. The attention must be off Blake and the team must run a real offense where other players are a threat. How much energy does Griffin have left in the 4th quarter when he plays with the 2nd unit as a prime defender of the paint? He is supposed to be the closer in the 4th quarter or the clutch player. How can you do that if you use up all of your energy playing with the 2nd unit at center? How can you be a clutch player late in the 4th quarter if the offense if based on Blake Griffin running the gauntlet against 3 defenders trying to bully your way close to the basket because your outside shot is not falling. With AD on the court with Griffin, AD is no outside threat and he takes up space in the paint that hurts Griffin's chance of success of getting one on one matchups in the paint.

Our point guards did not lose this game. I thought Smith played well even though Irving scored whenever he wanted to score. That was a trade off. Nelson played well in the first half and he was not responsible for the dysfunction in the Piston offense in the 2nd half. Too many quick shots. Too few players moving without the basketball. No screens were being set. One tweak SVG made to his inept offense was forcing Johnson to stand in the corner for most of the game. it was like the old days when Pope did that. Where was the motion offense? Who attempted to penetrate except for Griffin and Smith? What offense was SVG running in that game? Well did you see how players were trying to look for AD who was trying to establish position in the low post? Boston easily cut that off. When the ball did go down to AD he needed to move towards the ball quickly. Boston defenders like Tice always got a piece of the basketball and away Boston went in transition. Breaking down this game makes me ill. The strategy was ridiculous by SVG. The Piston defense in the 2nd half was God Awful. Boston made a lot of 3 point shots. But unlike the Pistons, they had something going on in the half court offense. Players were working hard without the basketball. And all 3 point shot attempts made by Boston were wide open shots taken in proper rhythm.

The Pistons played hard in spots. Can they correct mistakes? Is that likely to happen. Do some of the player know that they even made critical mistakes in that game. I think in AD's case he still doesn't have a clue as to how he can improve on defense and where he energy must be used the most. The Pistons will need to depend on blind luck to make the playoffs. The offense used by SVG in this last game should be enough to get him fired after the end of the season. Brad Stevens made a complete fool out of SVG in that game. Brad to his 3rd string center. Just beat AD down the court. He is always late. He never will know where you are when a shot goes up so crash the boards. And don't worry about shooting it down low. AD seldom has his hands up and will never attempt to deny you the ball.


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Re: FORUM

Post  cool breeze on Sat Feb 24, 2018 2:34 pm

Murph wrote:Don...I see your boys Sean Miller and DeAndre Ayton just got caught red handed.

Drummond never accepted money from Jim Calhoun.  Character matters.

How do you know Murph? No wire taps by FBI going on then. Looks like a lot of teams got caught with their hands in the cookie jaw including Michigan State. But there is no doubt being that Tucson is is a basketball town like I have never seen before there is a feeling that around town today of doom. Unlike most big conference schools U of A basketball creates most of the money for all of the sports programs at the University. A ticket to a U of A basketball game is a status thing and donors kick in tons of money only because of men's basketball. The long term affect of this scandal will mean that women's sports will suffer big time. My wife and I were on vacation to Lake Tahoe last week to play the mountain sports and while at the airport both coming and going saw several women's teams coming and going from the Phoenix airport. The women's softball, track, and tennis teams from several schools could be seen. In fact I sat next to a female college athlete on U of Nevada's tennis team. Then there were the men's baseball teams picking up luggage. Hundreds of young lucky athletes get to enjoy the experience of being on a college sports team. I did it in the old days and it was fantastic but nothing like kids enjoy today. The cost of of traveling, hotel and food alone must be off the charts relating to sports that do not bring in much revenue at all. Will the donors stop giving or attending college basketball games at Arizona and other schools involved in the FBI probe? I would think so. As for me, I will be happy to watch Arizona suit up smaller less high profile kids for the next few years. The NBA and the professional sports agents along with the shoe companies and television revenue has brought corruption into a once beautiful thing. Time to watch the Big Sky conference. I go up to Flagstaff every year to watch their conference tournament when they have it at Northern Arizona University. It is always very exciting and maybe more so than the PAC12 conference tournament. Also, I love watching the Oregon Schools in the PAC 12 especially Dana Altman's team. It doesn't matter who he has as players, by February, his teams are incredibly fun to watch. Who will coach the Arizona Wildcats tonight? Who will coach the Spartans? What about Duke?


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The Thrid Eye

Post  WTF on Sat Feb 24, 2018 12:39 pm

Sparma a quick glance from the Eye Test might say AD would kill Bill in a one on one setting but  believe if you stare long enough using the Third Eye one could probably see where Bill in the end could still come out on top.    

My argument would be that Bill was so far fundamentally advanced or some would say the smarter player that it would neutralize almost any athletic advantage AD might hold over him.   What I can say is that for certain Bill held his own against some of the league Elite Big Men of his era while we have watch more currently similar players to Bill whip on AD now.   

My guess is that Bill would be smart if enough to limit all scoring to the foul line  Very Happy
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Arizona

Post  Murph on Sat Feb 24, 2018 12:06 pm

Don...I see your boys Sean Miller and DeAndre Ayton just got caught red handed.

Drummond never accepted money from Jim Calhoun. Character matters.
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Stuff

Post  Sparma on Sat Feb 24, 2018 10:11 am

I could see Tellum taking over the front office soon, with SVG still getting his last year as coach.  Sadly, it's been especially as coach that SVG's disappointed me.

For instance, that 8 day lay off didn't lead to coaching innovation on O and D.  The only things I saw is that they were effective getting the ball inside to Andre early.  Sloppy with the ball, bad shooting.  Daniel Theis!?

Clarification: WS intends to divvy up success of a team, anchored in their number of victories.  It's intended as a comprehensive stat, then.  As I understand it, if a team wins x number of games, they divide the same number of WS, whether they're averaging a lot of points or few. I know that Bill James's WS concerning baseball includes both an offensive and a defensive component. Evidently, the NBA's win share also considers defense. So Isiah's steady decline in WS after 4 seasons looks significant even if team scoring goes down.

There's a bunch of interpretation that could accompany my statistical comparison of Isiah and Steph, no doubt.  An uninterpreted, but incomplete, statistical comparison was offered so I offered an uninterpreted one in response, but one that includes Isiah's complete career, as well as Steph's entire career to this point.  Interesting point about teammates, Wise; I'd wondered myself about the impact of Dumars' s arrival, but haven't gone back to check.  

The eye test is telling, but also risky, Wise.  I think that Isiah was a superb athlete for his time, so he does fare well in an eye test over time.  But how about when you defended Laimbeer over Drummond?  Surely, you're not claiming a la your eye test comparison of Isiah and Steph, that Laimbeer could take Drummond?  I hope we can agree that Drummond would destroy the teleported Laimbeer one on one.
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Relief On The Way???

Post  BallinD on Fri Feb 23, 2018 8:24 pm

LINK: Bower Interested in Leaving

MARK STEIN, ESPN:
“I’ve heard this from multiple rival teams in the last couple of weeks, there seems to be an anticipation that Arn Tellem, who, of course, is one of the most successful agents in this league’s history, and has been running the Pistons business side for two-plus years now, there is a lot of chatter that, don’t be surprised if Arn Tellem ends up running the Pistons basketball operations in the near future.”

Bower espressed interest in the Hornets GM job, according to Stein, and the Pistons team may promote from within...Hint...Not SVG's boy this time.  Now just broom the fat man and we can get on with the winning, maybe, although I would argue that Bower is SVG's better half by far!  All those lopsided trades were on him, out of SVG's own mouth!  I'd like to see what Arn could do.  Find us a coach?

dance hehe guitar
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WHO WHAT WHERE WHEN WHY Is All Relevant

Post  WTF on Fri Feb 23, 2018 8:11 pm

Oracle wrote:Sparma's analysis has a massive hole in it.

I can agree 100% with Murph, and still say that while Curry is in Zeke's class, calling him superior is a huge stretch.

What Sparma misses is the knowledge of someone that either has lived through the era we're talking about, or looked at the full stat picture.

Behavior is determined by the situation on the ground!

If you study the Pistons of that era, their points per game was VERY high early on, stayed that way for awhile, but then their points per game dropped dramatically.

But why did they drop? Well, they used to give up damn near as may points as they scored and losing more.

As the Pistons transformed from an offensive juggernaut into a massively defensive team, their opponents just couldn't score well, and therefore the Pistons didn't need to score as much to put them down. If you look at those numbers you see why Zeke's numbers went down... Curry NEEDS to score without a dominating defensive team(likely a result of the current rules).

Numbers are deceiving if you don't lay out the context, so yeah, Zeke was the better player, the only question is by how much... remember offense is only half of the game!

Can't keep just looking at stats and then roll with them in saying who's more superior past or present.   EYE TEST say's Zeke would whip Curry ass every day off the week and smile while he's doing it.    Very Happy
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It's not about old school, it's about accuracy...

Post  Oracle on Fri Feb 23, 2018 7:28 pm

Sparma's analysis has a massive hole in it.

I can agree 100% with Murph, and still say that while Curry is in Zeke's class, calling him superior is a huge stretch.

What Sparma misses is the knowledge of someone that either has lived through the era we're talking about, or looked at the full stat picture.

Behavior is determined by the situation on the ground!

If you study the Pistons of that era, their points per game was VERY high early on, stayed that way for awhile, but then their points per game dropped dramatically.

But why did they drop? Well, they used to give up damn near as may points as they scored and losing more.

As the Pistons transformed from an offensive juggernaut into a massively defensive team, their opponents just couldn't score well, and therefore the Pistons didn't need to score as much to put them down. If you look at those numbers you see why Zeke's numbers went down... Curry NEEDS to score without a dominating defensive team(likely a result of the current rules).

Numbers are deceiving if you don't lay out the context, so yeah, Zeke was the better player, the only question is by how much... remember offense is only half of the game!
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AD will not provide his team what they most need while SVG is happy when his players settle for contested 3 point shots

Post  cool breeze on Fri Feb 23, 2018 3:11 pm

Are the Pistons ready to play basketball? What has the team been doing in practice to resolve their issues. While watching several college games i have heard three different announcers state "no team can win when they settle for 3 point shots". When a player is too lazy to move in three yards to take a jump shot around the arc of the foul line and shoots a low percentage 3 ball, that shows most experts that something is wrong. Unless a player has a strong reputation of making 45% of those 3 point attempts, then the player who launches those shots has mental defects. Yet it seems that SVG prods his players to shoot too many 3s. I think the downfall of this team has been that the players are not tough minded clear thinkers. Some won't drive it when they have an open lane. Others won't make the right cut when a player does drive it while looking for an open cutter. Some do not set screens or if they do, the screens are not at the proper angle.

Then there is the Piston's soft defense where our starting center takes off an entire half of basketball or more and gets away with it by his soft coach. If the coaching staff actually is watching they should be able to see players who do the old shuffle back down on defense instead of running hard. AD has to be our defensive rock who is always protecting the paint not out on the perimeter or tooting as if he has a turd in his pants that he worries might fall out on the hardwood while in transit from offense to defense. AD is not in good enough physical shape. He is overweight. DeAndre Ayton has added 35 pounds of muscle since arriving in Tucson last summer. He has the perfect body with extremely low body fat. DeAndre is getting himself ready to play in the NBA. Just by looking at the two players AD vs DA you can see that one of those players is in great physical condition while the other is carrying way too much fat on his body. Who is that player? AD will never reach his potential physically until he makes a bigger commitment to conditioning and diet. But there are bigger problems with AD. His mind is not suited to becoming an aggressive defensive player. AD wants to play offense. The owner encourages the head coach to create more plays for AD. The owner insists that the head coach only bring in ball dominate point guards who push the basketball and run the pick and roll between AD and the point guard. What AD wants, AD gets. So with this scenario who will tell AD the facts of live and get him on the right course which should be to become the best defender and defensive rebounder in the NBA. Maybe that person will have to be his Mother who does care about his future success. The owner is an enabler and the head coach only follows orders to protect his job. So good luck Piston fans. We have Smith, Jackson and Nelson running the show. That is exactly what our owner wants. Everyone will celebrate and act like the Pistons have won the championship if Miami collapses and the Pistons get the 8th spot. Then we get to watch the draft in the off season. It is laughable to think about the Pistons throwing in their number one pick while still taking on Griffin's contract and giving up Harris and Bradley too. What would be the odds of the Clippers not making that trade without the pick? I say zero. Why are we surrounded by idiots? Dr. Evil said that. He used to be a Piston fan.

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I'm An Old Head LMAO

Post  WTF on Fri Feb 23, 2018 11:08 am

Hey y'all know me I'm an Old School Old Head!!!!! But it's just so hard for me to grab ahold of current accomplishments by today's player and give it a nod of approval after witnessing what I consider to be the greatest era of basketball.

It just to easy to look at the numbers and say who's better especially when it come to comparing today's talent to those of the 80's.  IMO you can't ignore all the intangibles and tangibles factors.  Especially the rule changes on the defensive side of the ball, but I also argue that the talent level as a whole was much more combative in the 80's as well.    

Don't get me wrong I don't knock the players for their current success I just have an issue when we start saying things like Bron is right there with MJ, or Curry numbers are comparable to Zeke's.   Even in our recent discussion concerning AD over Big Ben and Bill I have to use the Eye Test over the numbers to me it's like the talent pool is so watered down I look at a player like AD and see him getting numbers beating preschoolers that it almost cancel out the numbers.   

Curry does shoot exceptionally well and has change the game, but I can't help wonder if he could get that shot off or those same attempt under the same rules Zeke played under.  The same thing with Bron if he faced the same style of play MJ had so while 10 is far better than 8 as far as numbers goes but it was harder to get 8 yet made easy to get 10.    

I also think any decline in Zeke numbers weren't a decline in ability but that of being more reliant on other team mates as time progressed and his team mates became more talented.
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Curry

Post  Murph on Fri Feb 23, 2018 10:11 am

I loved Zeke. He's hands down my favorite NBA player of all time.

But Curry, for better or worse, has revolutionized the game. I know none of the old school posters on this forum will approve of what I'm saying, but IMO few will deny that what I'm saying is true.

Curry has made the 3 point shot the most important play in basketball...not just in the NBA, but at the college and high school levels also. If you can hit 3 point shots at the rate Curry hits them, even when contested, why would you ever shoot a 2?
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Isiah

Post  Sparma on Fri Feb 23, 2018 9:54 am

Thanks BallinD.

Of course there was one huge exception to Isiah's playoff excellence: his inbound v Boston (with the annoying: Bird steals the ball, Bird steals the ball, Bird steals the ball). That's got to be either #1 or #2 in Piston blunders, along with Sheed failing to cover Horry. When combined with the ref's bad call on Laimbeer, I wonder if we lead the league in heart-breaking plays. Could we have been three plays away from 3 more ships? The Laimbeer call most directly led to a miss.

Wise, we're back to me valuing stats more than you, although I did try to highlight that I'm focusing on the statistical comparison here, following suit with the initial 6 year statistical comparison. One thing I think the stats bring out clearly is internal to Isiah: his early peak, combined with the long gradual decline. Honestly, I'd been thinking of his peak as coinciding with that of the Bad Boys. No so.

Switching: when I last looked 538 gave the Pistons a 22% chance to make the playoffs (close to Don's estimate of 15%). With less than 1% chance to make the finals. I'll maintain that they're capable of winning a couple of series and making it to the Eastern finals, if everything breaks right (not if they need to beat Cleveland), but it looks quite likely that they won't even make it to the playoffs. Our misery likely will be over in two or three weeks. Or is it just beginning then? Miami's been in free fall, so that's our hope.
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Very Good Analysis

Post  BallinD on Fri Feb 23, 2018 12:38 am

Way to break it down Sparma.  

Sparma wrote:Isiah was a great, great player, underappreciated.  If only that foul hadn't been called on Laimbeer against Jabbar; the pantheon might look different now.  It's impressive that he matches up so well with Steph over their first six seasons.  Cross-generational comparisons are really challenging (how to handle the vast superiority of Steph's shooting stats, for instance).  After reviewing the numbers, I'd say that Isiah was no Steph, not statistically anyway.  The statistical comparison is accurate as far as it goes, but incomplete, and therefore misleading.

Essentially, statistically speaking at least, Isiah got better and better his first four seasons, then went into a steady statistical decline (but with massive playoff success!!); after his first season, Steph was very good for 3 years, then made a quantum leap beyond Isiah's statistical level of performance, now working on his fifth season of statistical performance significantly beyond Isiah's peak in each season.  

Isiah was a gritty player who seemed to peak in the playoffs (which Steph hasn't always done).  And we used to hear that Isiah could have racked up bigger numbers.
I think that though this was a statistical analysis, the statement you made here about playoff performance is particularly cogent.  That is where Isiah made his legendary status, being super clutch and hard nosed, IMO, and his leadership, which according to reports, included toning his game down (or fine tuning it) to better build a team capable of beating the Bostons and Lakers may explain some of his statistical decline early in his career.  Questions for another day.
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They Didn't Lower The Bars Of Excellence For Zeke and Others

Post  WTF on Fri Feb 23, 2018 12:27 am

Sparma wrote:Isiah was a gritty player who seemed to peak in the playoffs (which Steph hasn't always done). And we used to hear that Isiah could have racked up bigger numbers. But a statistical comparison was what was offered, one that's accurate as far as it goes, but one that masks Steph's significant statistical superiority over Isiah when Curry's whole career is considered. And that statistical superiority is vast during his five year peak, which goes three seasons beyond the comparison offered.

Can we just say Steph may have better numbers?  Superior just sound like too strong of a word and I say this because if Isiah or any other great from his era played under these soft rules in such a watered down league of today who know what in-imaginable numbers they would have produce.   

Lebron no MJ and I don't dislike Lebron,  Steph is no Zeke, and there are no second comings of Magic or Birds in the league and I don't care what the numbers say's.    Most of us posting here witnessed actual 80's and 90's basketball being played so we know a lot of numbers holds little value or at least it should IMO.
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Isiah and Steph

Post  Sparma on Fri Feb 23, 2018 12:06 am

Isiah was a great, great player, underappreciated. If only that foul hadn't been called on Laimbeer against Jabbar; the pantheon might look different now. It's impressive that he matches up so well with Steph over their first six seasons. Cross-generational comparisons are really challenging (how to handle the vast superiority of Steph's shooting stats, for instance). After reviewing the numbers, I'd say that Isiah was no Steph, not statistically anyway. The statistical comparison is accurate as far as it goes, but incomplete, and therefore misleading.

Essentially, statistically speaking at least, Isiah got better and better his first four seasons, then went into a steady statistical decline (but with massive playoff success!!); after his first season, Steph was very good for 3 years, then made a quantum leap beyond Isiah's statistical level of performance, now working on his fifth season of statistical performance significantly beyond Isiah's peak in each season.

Concerning Isiah, after 5 seasons he went into a lengthy scoring per 36 min decline. Similar pattern with WS and WS/48 where after 4 seasons he goes into a 9 season decline, excepting three seasons in a row of WS/36 of about the same (17.1, 17.3, 17.4).

Steph's PER jumps in his 5th season, then he wins the MVP in both his 6th and 7th year. Of course, the seventh year goes beyond the comparison provided. During his two MVP seasons, he's #1 in the league in the NBA in Value over Replacement, and 6th and 9th the next two years.

Isiah was a gritty player who seemed to peak in the playoffs (which Steph hasn't always done). And we used to hear that Isiah could have racked up bigger numbers. But a statistical comparison was what was offered, one that's accurate as far as it goes, but one that masks Steph's significant statistical superiority over Isiah when Curry's whole career is considered. And that statistical superiority is vast during his five year peak, which goes three seasons beyond the comparison offered.
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Ayo

Post  BallinD on Thu Feb 22, 2018 5:10 pm

@Oracle: Got this from a Facebook and real friend who's an old Pistons fan from way back. I checked some of the numbers on Pts and Rbs before I posted and they were spot on, but didn't check everything, but I believe all of it is accurate.

Let's us know what we had in Zeke, if we don't already.

Go Pistons. One more year of SVG is all, we hope!
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Ballin

Post  Oracle on Thu Feb 22, 2018 12:41 pm

Wow, I would have thought Curry would have been way ahead on points, but Zeke totally dominates him every category and Curry is only close on rebounds.

Where did you find this?
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Oh Isaiah

Post  BallinD on Thu Feb 22, 2018 2:02 am

Just The Facts

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Inside The NBA: Pistons Or Heat For No. 8 In East?

Post  Oracle on Wed Feb 21, 2018 8:27 pm

BTW, Ballin, you were right about Reggie, he seems a bit fragile right now.
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No Heart No Will No Chance

Post  WTF on Wed Feb 21, 2018 5:27 pm

Oracle wrote:We're about to find out, because there's no reason not to go balls out and leave everything on the court!

SVG always complains that they don't play hard enough, and while effort is important, playing with extra focus and determination is also very important.

Focus on making the right plays, making harder cuts when your man's attention wavers, knowing game situations and reacting accordingly, and more... focus and determination requires less effort for a good outcome.

Let's see how much they want this, because if they do, they'll get it... coaching willing!

I'm not sure any of them have the heart and the handful that might have the heart aren't on SVG list of favorites.   I believe that both Ellenson and Kennard does coming from winning programs and staying 2 years in college.   

Sadly AD is still wildly inconsistent and doesn't so that type of leadership,  Blake hasn't been out of the 1st round of the playoffs and I always thought Nelson was a little soft.   

Don't think this team received enough of a hard knock life lesson that it has what it takes to overcome what's ahead of them.  More importantly SVG needs to lead this group in this stretch run but he's more likely to whine and complain than he is to motivated them.   Hard to will a team if you haven't been doing so from the beginning.  

I'm still comfortable with my 39 win prediction.  All these other teams either have coaches or players that will lead them and motivated the team into the playoffs.  All current coaches with teams seeded 1-8 in the East are far better coaches than SVG.
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