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The Circus Act Is Now Performing in Ring 1

Post  Murph on Fri Jan 26, 2018 8:29 am

So Isaiah Thomas is leading a locker room jihad against Kevin Love???  The same Isaiah Thomas who has been healthy in Cleveland for exactly 10 games...during which time the team has gone 3-7?

So the problem is obviously future Hall-of-Famer Kevin Love...who has been a starter in Cleveland for 4 years, during which time they won an NBA Championship?

You can't make this stuff up...



But on a more general note:  Never trade with Boston.  No player that you can acquire from Boston is ever going to play as well for you as they did for Brad Stevens.  Take the Midget as an example.  The Midget never performed very well away from Brad Stevens.  He was always a glorified circus act, another Mugsy Bogues.  

Then all of a sudden the circus act goes to Boston and he becomes an All Star, a leading scorer, and almost takes his team to the NBA Finals.  Then he gets traded away from Stevens and...poof...he becomes Mugsy Bogues again (a very angry Mugsy Bogues).

Our own Avery Bradley had gone through a similar transformation.  In Boston, Bradley was an outstanding shooter, a defensive stopper, a rebounding fiend and part of a starting backcourt that almost went to the NBA Finals.  But take Bradley away from Stevens and...poof...he becomes Jody Meeks.   Shocked
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Re: FORUM

Post  Murph on Fri Jan 26, 2018 7:20 am

When comparing centers, it's useful to take into account who they played with.  Lanier played with HOFer Bing.  Laimbeer played with HOFers Thomas, Dumars and Rodman.  Wallace played with Billups, Hamilton who would have been HOFers, if Joe Dumars hadn't dumped Billups for no apparent reason.

In other words, Laimbeer and Wallace were complimentary players (4th or 5th options), and Lanier, while he was the best player on the team, had a lot of help from Bing.

OTOH, Drummond has to play with Ish Smith and Avery Bradley....not exactly Zeke and Joe.  facepalm
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Numbers-Trade-Meeting-Pop-Brady

Post  WTF on Fri Jan 26, 2018 1:10 am

@Sparma I'm not a big fan of those statistical numbers they just don't tell a the story at the end of the day the proof is pudding at the end of the day.  I mean what is 5 really other than being greater than 4 and less than 6.  

@Oracle Cousin had a triple double 44 point, 24 rebound, 10 assist with 4 steals  Shocked against the Bulls not a big deal I suppose IJS. BTW Cousin team won 

Trade Okay while I think this season is a wrap why not look forward to next season and go after Leonard and Love via trade before the deadline.  Both are unhappy with there current situation and they might actually look great next to AD.  Just one of many thoughts.

Thomas is full of himself if the stories coming from that Cavs player meeting is true and I'm disappointed Lebron let this play out the way it's being reported in the media.   This is the reason why I don't give out praise so easily to some players,  Thomas who has won nothing been out half a season is leading the charge against Love in a meeting, moaning to the press that the Cavs don't practice enough.  I'm sure it's a tons more to this event but by no means should Thomas be leading anything other than in assist and we know that's not going to happen.

Seems it getting time for Pop to follow the same path of Sloan and retire at least the coaching part of it.  This new generation of players are going to drive you insane.  You, Jackson and Riley have nothing to prove as coaches and today's players don't have the same dedication and commitment of all those great players you all won Championships with.  Social Media have all these new cats fooled, they think their **** don't stink and that they've arrived.  BTW another reason why I'm hard on Andre.

Brady, I would like to see him get Super Bowl ring number 6.  I think if he does he'll ride off into the sunset maybe turn to acting or politics
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A statistical comparison of 4 great Piston centers: Bob, Bill, Ben, and Andre

Post  Sparma on Thu Jan 25, 2018 11:10 pm

I doubt that there’s a decisive, conclusive, way to compare NBA stars from different generations. Comparison is especially difficult when one player is active, with a history of losing, while two of the others are legends and champions. The fourth person is a legend, but no champion. There are some comparative stats though, which might us inch towards an objective comparison. On the whole, it looks to me like Drummond outperforms both Bill Laimbeer and Ben Wallace by these statistical measures, falling short of Bob Lanier.

Quite an incomplete comparison, I know (no stories of playoff heroics here, for instance), but interesting.

First, I’ll focus on Andre, Bill, and Ben, adding Bob later.

PER’s controversial, I know. Still, the results of comparison are striking. Neither Laimbeer nor Wallace ever reached a PER average above 20 for a season; Drummond’s never been below 20. Laimbeer comes close at 19.2 in 1983-1984; strikingly, by that measure he goes into decline for the next 8 seasons, including the two ships. Wallace peaks at 18.6 in 2000-’01, then hits in the 17s for four years running, maintaining quite a steady peak for 5 seasons, before going into serious decline once he moves to Chicago. Now in his 6th season, Drummond’s at his peak at 23.9. His low of 20.9, last year, still surpasses the season highs hit by Laimbeer and Wallace.

Ranking the season peaks for PER: AD > BLaim > BW.

Thus far, AD blows away the other two in career PER: AD (21.Cool > BLaim (16.1) > BW (15.5).

I’d predict that AD’s PER average will still go up, if he can remain healthy, before declining late in his career.

I also looked at Win Shares, including at WS/48, an average. Wallace peaks at 11.6, topping Laimbeer’s best of 10.8 (both attained in the same season as their highest PER). Here, both beat out Drummond’s season best of 9.9 (2nd season). However, already with 6.4 Win Shares this season, Drummond’s on his way to besting both if he can maintain his pace. This is reflected in his .207 WS/48, which tops Wallace’s best of .190, and Laimbeer’s best of 1.82 (2nd ship!; he was at 1.81 in ’83-’84).

WS total: BW > BillL > AD, again with AD on track to surpass both bests this season. (Not surprisingly, Lanier, Laimbeer, and Wallace all top Drummond in WS career totals, in that order.)

Best WS/48: AD > BW > BillL.

Career WS/48 average: AD: .158 over BLaim: 149 over BW: .140. Again, I expect AD’s average to go up, before showing some decline.

Then, quickly, the comparison between Andre and Bob Lanier. Andre edges Lanier in career PER: 21.8 > 21.7. Bob’s average, however, includes three solid, but declining, years at the end (on the other hand, AD could still be peaking). Like AD, he jumped out of the shoot as a rookie, earning a 20 PER, higher than Bill or Ben ever attained, but lower than AD’s rookie 21.6. Bob’s season peak is at 24.8, higher even than the peak Andre’s working on this season. Bob tops Andre’s current high in two other seasons.

In WS, Bob has a peak of six consecutive seasons, topping Andre’s best thus far each time. He tops Andre’s top, ongoing, WS/48 average handily .227 > .207. In addition, he’s got 4 seasons which I average at .2065, a tiny bit behind Andre’s current best.

Summing up, I’d put Lanier over AD by these statistical measures, and AD over both Laimbeer and Wallace.

For what it’s worth….
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36 Games Remain

Post  WTF on Thu Jan 25, 2018 10:32 pm

Pistons stated the season 14-6 in their first 20 games and it was starting to look like I was wrong about my 39 win prediction.  Then boom they decide to go 8-18 in their next 26 games and current sits 9th in the conference 2 games under .500 at 22-24.   I'm not sure if they'll win these next 3 games feasible they could be 5 games under .500 by months end having to face OKC and the Cavs twice.  

What really makes you mad about this is that they were able to get the start they had going into what look like an easy January schedule with a ton of home games they looked like **** with or without Reggie they should have won a lot of those games.  So the Basketball Gods also decided to give them another easy month with a ton of home games so they should finish the month of February on a high note.  If this slide continues into February they might not win the 39 I predicted. 

They have 36 games remaining and like I said the next 3 wont be a cake walk,  but they could win them 2 of them are at home so anything possible but they don't stick a fork in them because they're done.   facepalm
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Drummond & Bradley

Post  Oracle on Thu Jan 25, 2018 8:24 pm

Highlights of Drummond's performance from NBA.com,


Bradley: The bottom line is that he never was as good as people thought, the stats were right on about him. It's amazing the fans on Langlois's blog figured it out when the last guy commented, "That Boston team hid his deficiencies well"
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Glad we agree Don...

Post  Oracle on Thu Jan 25, 2018 6:16 pm

I don't know who the next coach should be, but SVG has made some major blunders as a GM as well. He's over paid for marginal talent regularly and put us in a deep financial hole.

That's what made many decisions too hard to make, and couple that with his inability to stop letting players walk for NOTHING, he's leveled a disaster on the franchise that's going to be hard, but not impossible to recover from.

Kidd is the best available coach right now, but I don't think this roster fits his skill set. I really wish there was a young Carlisle out there.
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Re: FORUM

Post  cool breeze on Thu Jan 25, 2018 5:01 pm

[quote="Oracle"]I don't mean to single you out, but you provide the best case for me to make this point. You said,

Don wrote:This team looks much like last season's team after the month of December. This team is the most dysfunctional team in the NBA.
Right after that you proceed to launch into the player blame game!

Just days ago, you said that this team is FUN to watch... so what happened? Did the players all of a sudden change, and if they did why?

You did EXACTLY the same thing last season, your default is to blame players, it's amazing how going through the same thing fails to make you question your assumptions.

It was clear to me that it wasn't all the players, and in general the old saying that the fish stinks from the head applies more times than not.

Failing to diagnose the REAL problem, everybody was happy to replace players that were part of the solution with players that turn out to be worse in the long run.

News Flash: Ish isn't the problem, how Ish is used is the problem. 

Bradley isn't the problem, delusional belief about who and what he was, coupled with how he's used is the problem.

If you're searching for the real issues, look at what's common, the thread that runs through everything![/quote

Opps I wrote my response to your fist post before seeing this one. This is more in line with my own thinking Oracle. We have no disagreement on the coaching. Smith isn't the problem. It is the way he is being allowed to run the team that is the problem. He is running it much like Will Bynum used to run the Piston offense under a different head coach. Is that what you do as a coach when you have thrown in the towel and believe the players you have selected are just not good enough to win much of anything? By allowing your point guard to play offense like Smith is playing the position, I usually think it happens because the coach or owner is trying to pull the wool over the eyes of the fans who buy tickets and create a circus act for pure entertainment of watching one incredibly fast point guard run the court. If you know nothing about basketball then as a fan that might be fun to watch much like dunking gets people excited. Maybe that will sell tickets.

By the way AD did throw down an incredible dunk in the 2nd half off of one of Johnson's passes. Maybe SVG will blame the next loss on Jon Leuer's injury. Sure would love to see a coach who is capable of instilling more discipline with the players and finally secure the services of a top tier point guard. That will have to come through the draft. Who would you pick as our next coach?

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Re: FORUM

Post  cool breeze on Thu Jan 25, 2018 4:37 pm

Oracle wrote:What the hell are you guys trying to prove?

Drummond had a fantastic game, record book good and all you want to do is complain, denigrate his accomplishment? I don't get it!

@Sparma: Who cares if someone did it during cave man days? Is the goal to take away from what he did? I do credit you with fairness on both sides by praising his as well.

@Wise: So if someone during the recorded era came close, what is your argument? Why would you be looking for ways to diminish what he did.

The real issue is that if you watched this game and didn't recognize that what Drummond did wasn't special, you need better basketball glasses. Look, I know you guys are trying to look at a bigger picture, but let's not let this accomplishment get lost in the trees.

My first impression was that I had seen something different from Drummond(and I said it right away), I was impressed but didn't know how special it was, but I knew I had seen something really good.

Then there's Don, with another one of those fake posts! "Who can be happy with AD's stats when the team lost while creating over 20 turnovers?"

Well you can and should if your were a Piston fan. I've seen you giddy with Singler's numbers and Knight's numbers in many losses before. I've seen you rave about Stanley's play in amazing losses, and Bradley silly crap while screwing up the whole team.

But you can't be happy for Drummond because we lost due to HORRIBLE coaching(see Lemon's post)? Sick!

Oracle you are showing your nasty side again being up my past positive comments about some of the players that I find to have potential. Are you being fair Mr. Oracle? I thought that I covered the part about the bad coaching well providing situations where SVG blundered relating to the use of Boban for more than one minute. I saw Smith causing the entire offense to become dysfunctional while the head coach allowed him to run the team in overtime anyway.

Maybe I missed something in my post that you saw. Sorry that you didn't like what I wrote. Why am I not impressed with is all the hype regarding those great stats of AD? It appears to me that the homer press is attempting to get the fans attention off this horrible loss. How can anyone get excited when the team loses and still a player is glorified because of some silly stats? You have to make enough of the right plays to win games. Our players are not doing that including AD. In this case, AD missed his defensive assignment at the end of regulation on the side out of bounds play. AD would admit to that I am sure. Everyone makes mistakes including AD with his turnovers. Fans are the giddy ones buying into the hype. I am not about to pat AD on the back because he gave the effort any $20 million dollar a year player should give each and every game. In this case, AD was motivated to play harder because he didn't make the All Star Game. Where was the effort last season and for many games this year? But I am not saying this loss was AD's fault. In fact my post stated that AD kept the team in the game. I loved the way AD played this game. So what the hell are you trying to do Oracle? You are the hatchet man with these nasty posts maybe because you are so upset with the Pistons losing that you must take it out on the fans. Where are your details about what is going on in games? All you say most of the time is this guy or that guy or that coach needs to be traded or fired. You generalize too much and then come down hard on other posters who observe the individual games and make their comments. We are not always correct but whatever I write it is coming from my heart and is based on what I actually see during the games.

This loss was for sure the players fault. Utah players beat our players again. It doesn't matter who plays for Utah, they seem to always beat up on the Pistons. You cannot play sloppy mindless basketball while committing 20 turnovers and expect to win that game. Who in hell believes that you can overcome that many mistakes? The points that I made in my last post involve the reasons why some of the players made those mistakes. The offense is dysfunctional when Ish Smith runs the offense. There is no way any NBA team will ever be successful regardless of how many great players you might have on your team if the offense is run like it was in this last game when Smith ran it. While I think either Kennard or Bradley should be running the team now, when Galloway played point guard there was evidence of player and ball movement. When Smith ran the offense it was Smith creating all of the offense and then handing the ball off to his teammates in really tough situations. There was evidence of no player movement for most of every shot clock while Smith was in the game. Smith passed to Harris who took too many bad shots that missed instead of passing the ball himself. Players like Kennard, Tolliver, Johnson, Bradley and AD need more consistency in knowing what is going to happen when the half court offense gets into action. Quick missed shots can kill any team. Nobody in this world knows what is going to happen when Smith runs the offense other than Smith will be a big part of everything. And he usually ends up forcing a bad shot at some time. Some games he makes those shots but in the long run there is total dysfunction. It ends up being the coaches fault because he allows this nonsense to keep happening. If Smith cannot or will not run the motion offense like the team practices, then he must go along with Stan Van Gundy and his entire coaching staff. Detroit cannot even beat a bad team with Smith's offense. Make no mistake about it Oracle. What Smith is running relating to his personal offense (not the Piston motion offense) was designed for a point guard who comes in to change the pace for a few minutes at best. His style cannot last more than maybe 4 minutes at a time unless Smith is exceptionally hot and lucky. But SVG has decided the Pistons can tolerate the Smith offense for 25 to 35 minutes a game. For that he needs to be fired from all duties now. Fans love this up tempo hot rod racing up and down the court that gets you nowhere. The rest of the players hate playing basketball that way. You can see it in their faces as they attempt to fall back and patch holes in the defense after Smith gets deep into the baseline corner as the shot clock expires. Yet I saw the screen at the end of the game with "Pistons Live Postgame coming up" saying this.

1. Pistons let one slip away
2. Dre responds to the All-Star snub
3. Ish's strong performance off the bench
4. Stan Van Gundy on 6th straight loss

So that is the story line once again. AD and Smith had superior games. Reggie is out so that is why they lost. Everyone agrees that both Drummond and Smith made some great plays and both played hard. But the team lost to a horrible team at home. The team suffered by committing 20 turnovers and played dumb basketball for too many minutes. There was evidence of bad coaching relating to the use of Boban way too long and by allowing Smith to run the Piston offense in such a dysfunctional way. So far in the last 6 games, the Piston offense has looked completely out of sync. I say it is because Smith is runs his own brand of offense based on him alone creating everything for his team. That wouldn't work in high school varsity. Maybe a coach who had a player like Smith could be successful at the JV level. If Smith would start the offense correctly by giving UP the basketball early and then cutting and moving without the ball, setting screens etc then he could help his teammates. But all I am seeing in the half court set with Smith in the game is a lot of standing around by 4 players while Smith zigs and zags in and out of the paint and then hands the ball off at the end of the shot clock or shoots the ball early in the shot clock. Make or miss the offense become dysfunctional because only one player has any idea what the hell is going on. I don't know if anyone can be successful playing basketball on offense with Smith running it. He is doing what he said he would do in training camp. Read and react. Everything is based on Ish Smith who is the smallest player on the team and is not really a very good shooter. SVG is not using his roster players correctly so they can be successful players because he has no control of what Smith does. Hardaway, the assistant coach for point guards must start taking a lot of the blame along with Stan Van Gundy. But SVG is doing a horrible job. He should have taken out Boban within one minute and replaced him with Moreland in the 3rd quarter and that game wouldn't have even been close. It took Tolliver's two quick 3 pointers to get the Pistons back in the game to stop the bleeding.

If SVG couldn't see what he needed to do then he needs to go now. But I wouldn't want any of the assistant coaches to replace him. They are just as bad or worse. Who would have thought it about SVG? I thought he was a pretty smart coach yet he never had a good enough point guard in Orlando with all those outstanding players years ago. We need to find another Brad Stevens or a young smart head coach who can pick out great assistant coaches who have the ability to help make our players better not worse. Again it is time to tank and allow all of the players who are 24 and younger get most of the playing time. That means the new coach needs to experiment and bring in G League players for some of the remaining games. Get positioned well for this coming draft.

I am puzzled by the play of late by Avery Bradley. It is almost as if he wants to be traded before the trade deadline to get on a team that is going into the playoffs in good position other than the 8th seed. He picked up his defense in the 2nd half but didn't have much of any impact on the offense. But then I go back to Smith running the team. Bradley is a guy like Hamilton who scores by running without the basketball around screens etc. Nobody could do that because the Pistons were running the Smith offense and that is on SVG.

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Fire Him

Post  WTF on Thu Jan 25, 2018 4:28 pm

So true everything that's wrong about this team all lies with the coaching and I believe all this player could be relatively respectable if SVG knew what he was doing more times than not.  

I'm of the belief that even the team addressed it's flaw and made the needed upgrades SVG would find some way to screw it up.  This entire coaching staff needs to be replaced more important SVG needs to be fired from both jobs.
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Don

Post  Oracle on Thu Jan 25, 2018 3:59 pm

I don't mean to single you out, but you provide the best case for me to make this point. You said,

Don wrote:This team looks much like last season's team after the month of December. This team is the most dysfunctional team in the NBA.
Right after that you proceed to launch into the player blame game!

Just days ago, you said that this team is FUN to watch... so what happened? Did the players all of a sudden change, and if they did why?

You did EXACTLY the same thing last season, your default is to blame players, it's amazing how going through the same thing fails to make you question your assumptions.

It was clear to me that it wasn't all the players, and in general the old saying that the fish stinks from the head applies more times than not.

Failing to diagnose the REAL problem, everybody was happy to replace players that were part of the solution with players that turn out to be worse in the long run.

News Flash: Ish isn't the problem, how Ish is used is the problem. 

Bradley isn't the problem, delusional belief about who and what he was, coupled with how he's used is the problem.

If you're searching for the real issues, look at what's common, the thread that runs through everything!
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External Motivation

Post  lemonpen on Thu Jan 25, 2018 3:31 pm

Maybe our thoroughbred responds best to embarrassment as opposed to the whip.

This masterpiece was very likely the result of an All Star snub.  A few weeks back Dre put up a run of solid performances after having his arse majorly called out AND roundly stomped by Embide.    
Hopefully at some point Andre will develop a means of internally motivating himself to this level.  

It was kinda nice to see him go hard at a top shot blocker.


Last edited by lemonpen on Thu Jan 25, 2018 4:22 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Wise

Post  Oracle on Thu Jan 25, 2018 3:04 pm

I'm satisfied, you recognized his accomplishment, that's all I wanted to see.

Your other points are 100% valid and I feel the same way, I want to see something close to this level every night. Then and ONLY then does he get to be anywhere near Big Ben, Laimbeer or Lanier.

But he needs coaching! It's amazing the improvements he's making, I used to doubt his commitment to getting better, but I can see it's there, he just needs more help. It's performances like this that not only shows us what he can do, it shows him what he needs to do.

So I'm like you, this was great, but I'm not satisfied and Drummond shouldn't be either.

Having said that, Drummond is the LEAST of this teams problems!
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Oracle To The Rescue LMAO

Post  WTF on Thu Jan 25, 2018 2:32 pm

Oracle wrote:What the hell are you guys trying to prove?

Drummond had a fantastic game, record book good and all you want to do is complain, denigrate his accomplishment? I don't get it!

@Sparma: Who cares if someone did it during cave man days? Is the goal to take away from what he did? I do credit you with fairness on both sides by praising his as well.

@Wise: So if someone during the recorded era came close, what is your argument? Why would you be looking for ways to diminish what he did.

The real issue is that if you watched this game and didn't recognize that what Drummond did wasn't special, you need better basketball glasses. Look, I know you guys are trying to look at a bigger picture, but let's not let this accomplishment get lost in the trees.

My first impression was that I had seen something different from Drummond(and I said it right away), I was impressed but didn't know how special it was, but I knew I had seen something really good.

Then there's Don, with another one of those fake posts! "Who can be happy with AD's stats when the team lost while creating over 20 turnovers?"

Well you can and should if your were a Piston fan. I've seen you giddy with Singler's numbers and Knight's numbers in many losses before. I've seen you rave about Stanley's play in amazing losses, and Bradley silly crap while screwing up the whole team.

But you can't be happy for Drummond because we lost due to HORRIBLE coaching(see Lemon's post)? Sick!

Honestly Oracle I would be happier if we were talking him actually averaging that 20/20 I so desire to see out him.  I think we recognize it was a great performance but there are buts  I think Lemon and Don points that it came in a loss does take away from it, worse that it was against a team we should have easily beaten.  Reality is we could probably feel better about it if this same performance was duplicated in the previous 5 losses.

Also I think Sparma assessment was that it was a great performance just as you were thinking my rebuttal was to just keep it in it's proper context as great as a performance as it was it wasn't an uncommon feat beyond the actual numbers being the same.  I just hate when these moments happen we're acting like we haven't seen great moments before.  

Again I'm not as easily impress by it because I can only look at it in it's entirety especially when he's mention in the same breathe as great players like Ben and Bill. I'm only interested in Next Level at this point so what happens if he lays an egg in the next 2 games that's that may or may happen but it could and then what will this performance matter.
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@Sparma

Post  WTF on Thu Jan 25, 2018 2:09 pm

@Sparma, There's not a doubt that Andre's performance was nothing but spectacular and I do give him that.  I just doubt have a one game view of him and wish he was more along the line of this statement you offered of Wilt averages about 24/24/8 assists I think that's fair to ask, but I'm only asking him for a consistent 20/20 and perhaps a couple of blocks.  

I'm not trying to talk down Andre's performance I just refuse to talk it up beyond it being a spectacular performance.  I'm just saying that there's be a ton of individual performances like this rather they been exact in numbers.  But in playing the if game I don't think Andre would fair very well with either Bill or Ben because this guys where good in their own right.   I don't think they benefitted from the players they played with, Andre is physically more gifted than both of them but Bill did his thing against the best centers and Ben dominated players centers just like Andre.  

I'm just saying that we've seen incredible games by Bill and Ben in more pressure moments in bigger games.  In one playoff season Bill averaged 17 rebounds I think its was the season we lost to Boston in the ECF before our first trip to the Finals.  Bill wasn't going up against scrub centers every night either seems every team had a dominated big.   I don't think he's ready to be compared to those 2 not yet anyway.

Where was this performance when he face D Howard,  where was this performance in the 3 losses to Philly?  I'm hard on Andre for good reason so petting him on his head for something he should be doing more often than not is just too hard to do.
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Come on, quit with the caveats!

Post  Oracle on Thu Jan 25, 2018 1:54 pm

What the hell are you guys trying to prove?

Drummond had a fantastic game, record book good and all you want to do is complain, denigrate his accomplishment? I don't get it!

@Sparma: Who cares if someone did it during cave man days? Is the goal to take away from what he did? I do credit you with fairness on both sides by praising his as well.

@Wise: So if someone during the recorded era came close, what is your argument? Why would you be looking for ways to diminish what he did.

The real issue is that if you watched this game and didn't recognize that what Drummond did wasn't special, you need better basketball glasses. Look, I know you guys are trying to look at a bigger picture, but let's not let this accomplishment get lost in the trees.

My first impression was that I had seen something different from Drummond(and I said it right away), I was impressed but didn't know how special it was, but I knew I had seen something really good.

Then there's Don, with another one of those fake posts! "Who can be happy with AD's stats when the team lost while creating over 20 turnovers?"

Well you can and should if your were a Piston fan. I've seen you giddy with Singler's numbers and Knight's numbers in many losses before. I've seen you rave about Stanley's play in amazing losses, and Bradley silly crap while screwing up the whole team.

But you can't be happy for Drummond because we lost due to HORRIBLE coaching(see Lemon's post)? Sick!
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Centers

Post  Sparma on Thu Jan 25, 2018 1:32 pm

I partly agree with Wise's caveats; I'd just like to hear acknowledgement from him that Drummond's achievement was truly spectacular.

Caveat 1: I doubt that AD's numbers are unprecedented.  Wilt's career ran through 1972-73; at an ESPN site, he credited with no blocks or steals!  The mention of no equivalent since 1973-'74 likely signifies that that's when official records of blocks and steals started.  We know that Wilt led the league in assists one year.  I've read estimates that he frequently got 10 blocks in a game.  Steals by centers (as for AD and Ben W) are often based on strength and quick hands, both of which Wilt had.  So I'd guess that Wilt for one, did equal AD's numbers.  We don't know that there's no precedent; we can make a reasonable guess that that there has been.

Caveat 2: Bill James's pointed out that focusing on the exact combination of numbers of an accomplishment (eg above .316 with 34 doubles, 6 triples, and 24 HRs) can lead to idiosyncratic, even misleading, comparisons.  I'm not claiming that AD's stats were the greatest ever, just that they were really great.  Aside from averaging 50/25 one year, Wilt averaged about 24/24/8 assists for two seasons, no doubt with a ton of blocks added.

Comparisons with Piston greats: I love and admire Laimbeer and Ben Wallace.  I'm trying to praise AD by placing him in conversation with them, not talk them down. In all, I'm presently inclined to go with a Lanier, Wallace, Drummond, Laimbeer ranking among Piston centers now. Won't be able to complete the comparison until AD's career is in the books. We've been blessed by an incredible set of centers!

That said, one thing that seems clear to me is that if Bill or Ben could be teleported to go up against Andre 1:1, he'd destroy them.

Bill also made 4 All-Star teams.  Both Bill and Ben benefited from Centers have their own slot, or two really, on the All Star teams.  Andre, at 24!!, would at least be sitting at 2, if not more if it still were that way.

Ben has an impressive set of honors, no doubt.  If I'm counting right, at Andre's age, Ben was on the bench in Washington, while Bill was an ordinary center in Cleveland, about to be traded to Detroit.  Andre, by contrast, just set a youngest ever mark in rebounding.

Yes, Ben was truly great on D.  He also averaged 5.7 ppg for this career, only twice going over 9 ppg (the first time with serious help from an innovative Larry Brown).  That's about where I'd project Eric Moreland's production, if he were given Ben's numbers.  Ben could be a serious drag on the O; not so for Andre, who makes a good, though not great, offensive contribution. And more controversially: I think Ben offered little resistance to Shaq in the finals, getting pushed around easily.  Great D, yes, but not against the best.  I can't picture AD getting pushed around like that, although in fairness Embiid has punked him pretty good in other ways.

Switching briefly back to yesterday's game, and to Boban: in the 2nd quarter, with Boban playing a lot, Kelser commented that he really liked the tandem of Centers SVG was using, as they were both capable of putting pressure on Gobert.  Blaha said he wanted to see Boban go up against Gobert; once Boban destroyed him on a play, both he and Kelser praised him. Boban didn't do much in the 2nd half (partly due to SVG limiting his opportunities), but did end up neutral (0) for the game, third best on the team, with only Kennard and Tolliver + for the night.  The idea that he just shouldn't be playing against Utah didn't occur to Kelser (a company man, but one I regard as not only astute but also honest and frank, albeit politely).
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Dead Man Walking

Post  lemonpen on Thu Jan 25, 2018 11:51 am

After Smiths miracle steal with 13.8 seconds remaining, and having a 1 point lead, and having 2 time outs in his pocket, AND seeing his team misfire badly on its last 5 possessions, HOW COULD STAN NOT CALL AN IMMEDIATE TIME OUT TO ORGANIZE OUR LAST POSSESSION.
Someone help me, I’m bewildered. It took Utah 2 seconds to figure out to foul Dre. Plenty of time for a game reset.

Afterward all Stan could talk about was how difficult it is to win when committing 20 turnovers. Didn’t Utah’s one turn over with 13 seconds left damn near outweigh all 20 of ours.

I think I have seen enough to support relieving SVG of the coaching reins.
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Hope Springs Eternal

Post  lemonpen on Thu Jan 25, 2018 11:49 am

A week ago I laid out all of my reasons why Andre was not All Star quality. Fast forward 5 days.

When I learned of Andre’s response to the All Star snub my reaction was one of disappointment. I felt that he had a distorted view of what an All Star looked like on a nightly basis. To use a well worn phrase it seemed like his “BAR WAS LOW”.

I hope the masterpiece he painted last night is a direct result of him now carrying a Sequoia size chip on his shoulder. I hope that masterpiece reflects an upgraded realization of what ALL STAR quality is. I hope the chip on his shoulder is never to be dislodged, stoking a career-long inferno. I have never before seen THAT guy. How long before the next game?
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I Guess His Whining On Twitter Rubbed Me Wrong

Post  WTF on Thu Jan 25, 2018 11:26 am

I think many are putting too much mustard on this hotdog lol

Quadruple Doubles only the Admiral and Dream,  Kareem, Moses, Parrish and Love all recorded a 30/30 game before I'm sure that had a block or assist to go along with that stat.  

Here's a Tidbit:  Big Ben is a 4 time All Star, 4 time DPOY, 11 time ALL NBA Team in his short NBA career,    Rodman had season rebounding averages of 18 per game 3 times.  

Come on people we know better!!!
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Who can be happy with AD's stats when the team lost while creating over 20 turnovers?

Post  cool breeze on Thu Jan 25, 2018 11:00 am

This team looks much like last season's team after the month of December. This team is the most dysfunctional team in the NBA. The offense once Ish Smith enters the game is the most primitive offensive team in the NBA as well. How can shooters be successful if the point guard takes over the entire offense and creates his own offense. This is what happened too much of the time. Smith gets lucky and beats the opponent's big man down the court and scores a layup. After that happened Smith tried it again. Then all I could see was 4 players standing around at spots while Smith dribbled. The shot clock winds down and Smith dribbles to one corner and gives up the ball when he is within 3 feet of his teammate. This happened to Harris, Tolliver, and Johnson. They are stuck now trying to beat the shot clock while now having two defenders on them. Smith trots away to the backcourt as if he has done his job. The Pistons have a defensive breakdown when AD fails to recognize the play Utah is running on the side out of bounds. Johnson is screened out. AD is the guy who is supposed to cut the baseline off but is too high. Result a layup to send the game into overtime. The coach who has his head up his rear keeps Smith in the game instead of bringing in Galloway. Somehow the head coach doesn't notice the total dysfunction going on with the Pistons half court offense. There is no offense. This is pure street basketball like a pick up type game where players play together for the first time. The team needed a different point guard so they could run a more predictable type offense that was effective earlier in the game. If you have a guy like Bradley who does well going around screens and then you see him standing because no offense is being run, then the coach should recognize that something is wrong. No adjustment by the head coach who is in la la land.

Keeping your head in the game is important if you are the coach. In the 3rd quarter the Pistons were looking good until SVG brought in Boban. This was not a good game to use Boban. Any coach in their right mind should have recognized that fact and if they did play him, it should have been clear after 3 turnovers in a row that someone else should have been playing center for the Pistons.

Harris is the victim of a dysfunctional offense. He is expected to make contested shots and create shots in a dysfunctional offense. Harris is confused. He is now shooting the ball without getting a good base. His body is floating. His timing is off. He is shooting the ball in the paint off balance much like Smith. But his worst trait lately is his lack of energy on the boards. Tobias is not rebounding the basketball or playing even average defense in the paint or outside the paint. Last night Tolliver should have been in the game more in the 4th quarter. It was Tolliver who dug the Pistons out a a huge hole created by the coach playing Boban.

My final comment is one that is scary and i will bet that all of you who watched the Pistons lose to a horrible NBA team that has lost a lot of games this season will agree with this observation. The Piston players look very confused on both offense and defense. I have seldom seen a team this far along in the season look so confused as a team that has now played together for a long time. On offense, the pistons appear to play the most primitive offense in the NBA. Only a few players recognize situations on the court and take advantage of those situations. Who got the ball into AD the most for easy shots around the rim last night? It was Stanley Johnson. He would penetrate and know that AD's man had to switch onto him and then could make a safe pass to the fully engaged AD. Simple plays when you use your head can work. This type of play seldom happened last night. And players seem to be rushing too much while making bad decisions as if they are in a panic situation before the 4th quarter arrives. They have the got to get the shot up look on their faces even when they do not have a high percentage chance of making the shot.

The Pistons have turned themselves into a lottery team. Why not get as high up in draft position as possible. If the coach wants the circus act with Smith so be it. Just continue to lose and make sure the games are not close. We don't want to win too many more games. Trade any of the high contract players that you can including AD. His numbers mean nothing. If the Pistons could trade Drummond with a deal for first round picks and force that team to take Reggie Jackson or Tobias Harris, the Pistons will be back in good financial shape. Now they are in a bad financial position with a horrible team on a 6 game losing streak while playing games at home against losing lottery teams. Start playing Ellenson and all of the players who are 23 and younger. Bring in players from the G League just for fun. This last game was a horribly played game by the Pistons even while they played hard with great energy. Last season they played with less energy so I guess you could say the Pistons are improving. Who ever is in charge of the point guards has been doing a horrible job now for several years.

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Great Game By Andre but.......... Other Worldly????

Post  WTF on Thu Jan 25, 2018 10:05 am

Oracle wrote:The last person before @AndreDrummond with 30 points, 24 rebounds, 4 assists, 6 blocks and 3 steals in the same game is ... no one. All those stats have been kept since 1973-74. It hasn't been done. - Keith Langlois

It might be a 1st but I would still like to see how close the next player was to those exact stats stats.  Of course Keith wouldn't add that because it'll take away from the obsessive hyping he wants to apply to this moment.    lol

I'm just saying what if the opposing player or any player for that matter had a stat line of 24 points, 30 rebounds, 10 blocks, assist and 2 steals would it be any less or more impressive that what Andre put up?   Simply can't view this as being the greatest thing we've ever seen when we have all have witness performances like this many times by numerous players.  

See this kind of stuff IMHO is that the media far too often overstate moments like this KL an idiot lol


Last edited by WTF on Thu Jan 25, 2018 11:27 am; edited 1 time in total
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Maybe I'm Throwing A Bit Of Shade

Post  WTF on Thu Jan 25, 2018 9:36 am

Oracle wrote:How many of these guys did that while scoring 30 points and recording 6 blocks, 3 steals & 4 assists against a 7'2 opponent with a 8' wingspan?

I could imagine that a few of those guys came very close to doing so.  I came across this list trying to find comparable games still looking, but I would find hard to believe that players like (Hakeem, Shaq, KG, Duncan, Camby and Barkley) didn't have similar games like this.  I'm sure I miss mentioning someone on that list that might have came closes.

I'm not knocking AD at all I just think moments like this get a bit overstated because there's a 50-50 chance he'll come out far short of those numbers next game.  I mean it when say his numbers should be bordering 20/20.   There's a ton of context in that list from a rebounding perspective just by looking at the number of times a player appears on it.
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FYI: I said Drummond's game was other worldly, well the proof is in...

Post  Oracle on Thu Jan 25, 2018 4:51 am

The last person before @AndreDrummond with 30 points, 24 rebounds, 4 assists, 6 blocks and 3 steals in the same game is ... no one. All those stats have been kept since 1973-74. It hasn't been done. - Keith Langlois
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Wise: Impressive List, but you need context...

Post  Oracle on Thu Jan 25, 2018 4:37 am

How many of these guys did that while scoring 30 points and recording 6 blocks, 3 steals & 4 assists against a 7'2 opponent with a 8' wingspan?
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