FORUM

Page 19 of 42 Previous  1 ... 11 ... 18, 19, 20 ... 30 ... 42  Next

Go down

"5 Takeaways from the 2017-18 NBA Season" has me wondering it this writer ever watched a Piston game

Post  cool breeze on Thu Apr 12, 2018 2:00 pm

Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder. Every fan sees things differently. But would anyone who watched this Piston team this season list the players that must be held on to to win next season that this writer offered? Leading the list was of course Jon Leuer. Somehow this person didn't watch Leuer in action in the last game of the previous season when Arron Gordon had Leuer for lunch. SVG was still promoting Leuer in the last game. He shouldn't have played in that game at all. That game should have been reserved for the rookie Henry Ellenson and hard working players on the Grand Rapids Drive. But there was Leuer getting minutes and getting his butt kicked in every way possible. But somehow Leuer who has an impossible contract to lose is a key guy next season. Who participated in this trash"? Was it the owner? I think SVG had some influence because he is the knucklehead who signed him for outrageous money. Of course one of the other key players that this team just has to keep around is Nelson aka Butter Ball. This was another brilliant move by SVG in bringing his old friend back to run the point guard position. No problems with his weight or quickness. Yes he fit right in with SVG's plans. The Pistons point guards under SVG have to be among the worst defensive players in the league to qualify for a point position job with the Pistons. Finally, this article lists - drum roll - the amazing Reggie Jackson who would have led the Pistons to the promise land if only his injury had healed quickly enough.

This article had to come directly from the propaganda department of the Pistons front office. And don't forget, if healthy with Detroit's amazing front line, this team will win a lot of games. How exciting to be going into the playoffs out of the playoffs and with no first round draft pick. All these amazing players will be back. WOW!

At least Andre Drummond did not advise the press that all this Piston team needs is "REST". That was AD's rap up at the end of last season. This time around AD said over the summer the players will do a lot of team bonding. Blake Griffin also stated that he will be working out over the summer with his teammates. If those comments are true, then that is something positive to take with us as we wait to see what Tom Gores is going to do with the front office and coaching staff. I believe that the trade involving Blake Griffin is the biggest story this season. Most experts who are not working for the Pistons believe that this was perhaps the biggest blunder any owner has made this season. While everyone seems to be on board that the coach should be fired I am not. I believe the players lost too many games because they played against better players who had a bigger attention span than our players. Our players are young with the exception of Blake Griffin who is injury prone and those old injuries usually don't go away especially when it comes to knees. Griffin for sure brings a higher basketball IQ to the team. As a team it appeared to me that this group had a lower basketball IQ than most of the other teams including the teams that are in the same boat as Detroit meaning out of the playoffs.

I sure hope the Pistons get lucky with their 2nd round pick. Will they select a point guard? Of course not if SVG and company are around. Can't have too much competition for playing time. That only creates bad team chemistry. And I remember one comment by AD in his interview. He loves Reggie Jackson. Reggie gets' AD the ball. AD wants the ball. AD wants to be an offensive star. He wants those stats to go up even higher. Meanwhile, Blake Griffin commented that he was surprised at how good AD's hands were on the defensive end. That was really true. AD has great hands and at times showed how good they were this season with the amount of deflections he got. If only Andre Drummond would decide that he wants to be the best defensive big man in the NBA then the Pistons might win some meaningful games next season. Of course they need a real point guard who can defend too. I don't trust Reggie Jackson will ever be a true two way above average point guard in the NBA for an entire season. It is clear that the Pistons will roll the dice with him again next season. Looking at all of the Eastern Conference teams that made the playoffs, unless there are some big changes in those teams, I do not think the Pistons can secure a better record than any of them. But next season could be different depending on how hard the players work over the summer. We have to hope that they will do that because even if there is a change in the coaching staff, the odds are that the Detroit Pistons will do well again up to around Christmas time and then fall flat on their asses again through the months of January and February and into mid March.

I might be the only fan who is pulling for Eric Moreland to make the team again next fall and come back with 20 pounds of muscle. Eric didn't make the list of "must keep" players by Fansided in the article opposite our posts. If that person can include Butter Ball and Jon Leuer in the list of "Must keep" then I should have a right to include Moreland on my list. That guy busts his butt all of the time when he plays basketball. He challenges every shot that goes up in the paint when he plays there. Watch the game film of Ben Wallace's glory days with the Pistons Eric. I am pulling for you to turn heads and gain more Piston fans next season. Being that the Pistons will come back with Smith and Jackson as the point guards, I hope if one of them goes down, Luke Kennard will get a chance to show his ability to run the team and play that position the way it should be played. The know the NBA is pure entertainment and not true basketball. The fans want to see those quick long range shots do down and of course a lot of clever dribbling by small point guards. Still I have to hope that when the loses pile up again, the owner will be forced to try something different. It really appears that Tom Gores has made most if not all of the real decisions that have been made while SVG has been with the Pistons. Will he finally decide to take a back seat and admit he knows very little about running a basketball operation? It had to be Tom Gores who helped write that Fansided article. That means that the 22 old Stanley Johnson will be traded over the summer. I am sure he wouldn't mind that but looking at his contract one would have to be an idiot to do that. We lose our best defender on the entire team. He is the player that the coach matches up with the best offensive weapon of all opposing teams unless that player is a center or bigger power forward. Injuries and poor outside shooting have plagued Johnson. Meanwhile injuries and horrible defensive effort have plagued Reggie Jackson too. Who is the real Stanley Johnson? That remains to be seen but logic and reason tells me he could still become an elite NBA offensive player to go with his already outstanding ability to defend his position and other positions while being an excellent help defender and passer. Nothing matters but shooting the ball from distance though so he must be traded to provide better entertainment which is all that the NBA is about. To me the NBA has become boring and predictable where almost every team plays the same way. I did notice that although Chicago got beat up badly by the Pistons that they often were able to run their 4th option on offense. Meanwhile, our players always settled on the first option. There I go again about basketball IQ and how primitive our players seem to play under this system. There is no escaping the depressing feelings some of us have when thinking about the future of the Detroit Pistons. It is a good thing that the season is finally over for the players.

cool breeze

Posts : 2995
Join date : 2011-12-21

View user profile

Back to top Go down

100%

Post  WTF on Thu Apr 12, 2018 5:18 am

First I take no real pleasure in being correct about the 39 win season and that deep down I wanted to be wrong.   But I had always made it clear as to why I predicted 39 wins and I'll say it again COACHING!!!.

Like many of you I could look at the roster and think maybe this team can win 50 plus games but then I turn and look at the very thing we've been debating or discussing recently as to rather SVG gets 100% blame and he really does.   In a perfect world in would be reasonable to think that a player tweak here or there made a difference, or a bad call here or there made a difference in a win or loss.  

Coaching has been consistently bad since preseason in fact it the only thing that's been consistent as far as this team goes.  Everything about this team is by SVG design Period!!!! It's been a flawed design since he arrived here in his dual role.   I would be willing to place some blame on the players but you can't do it largely because SVG never coached to their talents.

How do you as a coach go an entire preseason and regular season trying to figure out your roster? why would a coach for 4 whole seasons force a system on group of players not equipped for it instead of applying a system suited to talent?  Sparma these 2 questions are indication it's all on SVG alone it not like if we were making an argument like Flip only going 9 deep in his roster, or Rick not wanting to play Prince over Curry or LB use of Memo.  We're not arguing decision making when it comes to SVG we're arguing and debating stupidity of a coach when we talk about SVG.   

I picked 39 wins because I knew this coach would **** it up 100% and he did.   

I'm not to down about the roster going forward again the right coach could be the difference, but if they keep SVG it'll be another long season next year.   facepalm
avatar
WTF

Posts : 4510
Join date : 2011-12-13

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Read'um and weap...

Post  Oracle on Wed Apr 11, 2018 11:52 pm

Wise WINS!!!  dance dance dance dance

 
Regular Season
MemberWins
Sparma54
BallinD53
DX50
Lemonpen49
Murph48
Cool Breeze47
Oracle42
Wise39
Stones
Phil1980boy
Sebastian
Merc
Fly
Fennis
Sissy
avatar
Oracle

Posts : 6579
Join date : 2011-12-21

View user profile

Back to top Go down

A few things as the end nears

Post  Sparma on Wed Apr 11, 2018 8:19 pm

Wise, congratulations on being the closest in your prediction. And I was the farthest away. If you hit it on the nail after tonight with your 39, that'd be pretty impressive.

Wise writes: "I'm sorry again this is 100% on SVG because he's in charge...." I've argued against it being 100% Stan, certainly as coach, but maybe he really is. In any case, I hope we can agree that there's an invalid logical deduction to be avoided. If y wouldn't have occurred without x as [ultimate] cause, it doesn't necessarily follow that x is the [proximate] cause of y. There's an equivocation (between ultimate and proximate) that gives the appearance of validity. X could be both the ultimate and proximate cause of y, but that case needs to be made and not assumed. For example, the Pistons wouldn't be in the state they are without the Big Bang as [ultimate] cause, but the Big Bang isn't the [proximate] cause of the state the Pistons are in. Maybe in the case of Stan, he's both the ultimate and proximate cause, but there's some serious filling in to do to show that's the case.

Oracle and I certainly agree that Stan's failed. And I'm struck by the lawn mowing analogy. I'd choose a different analogy though, which I believe to be closer to Piston reality. Let's say "Stan" is hired as CEO and manager (but not as owner, chef, sous chef, etc.) to turn a restaurant into a Michelin star level place. Four years in, that doesn't happen. For me, it's fair to say that Stan's failed. Might it also be 100% on Stan? Maybe, but that would take a whole lot of filling in to establish.

And of course Stan's going to plead for one more year with the owner, given how well the restaurant did in the 4th year when a key chef wasn't on family leave.

Thanks for your remark about me being quick on the Philly train, Oracle. I'm guessing the tanking train's too far down the track now for us to hop on board.

Astute depiction of our lot and options by Murph. I like the Stackhouse possibility, but you may be right about the need for a vet. Also, I think Stack would be better off elsewhere, like with the Knicks or Bucks, as has been rumored.

avatar
Sparma

Posts : 1350
Join date : 2011-12-17

View user profile

Back to top Go down

There Need To Be An Up-Rise A Freaking Revolt

Post  WTF on Wed Apr 11, 2018 12:42 pm

I think I've been down this road before but I'll take one more trip just to remind everyone what it use to be like and how far we've had falling away from that thing we once proudly cherished.  DNA! DNA! DNA!  PISTONS DNA!!!!

We all know better, we now what it takes and where it comes from and this organization doesn't have it anymore.  We know what All Stars look like, we know what coaching looks like, we know what effort looks like.  We have suffered the agony of defeat and found joy in the thrill of victory we've been to the mountain too many times to know that this team doesn't have what we know in our hearts win championship.

Cherish AD as you wish but you know deep in your hearts beyond his stats he is not on the level of Big Ben and Bill and you all know it. Or at least that is what I've been trying to tell everyone.  Lets stop kidding ourselves because we all know what is missing from AD game which is why he's wildly inconsistent game to game.  

We know what great coaching looks like, we know what a great PG looks like,  we know what a winning team looks like and we didn't need no dumb ass stats and advance statistical bullshit to tell us differently.  I don't give as **** what AD stats are he's not nor will he ever be on the level of not just Ben and Bill but others at his position that carried that Pistons DNA.    He don't have it and likely never will.

I don't understand why we accept anything with team, we have bashed far better coaches than SVG, we have bashed far better players than AD, RJ, and others on this team.  We have bashed far better drafted picks than SJ yet we have lowered the bar so low in what we expect, we play this wait and see game season after season SMH.  

I'm sorry again this is 100% on SVG because he's in charge, in a way no other coach we had could have imagine,  SVG had to go to himself to make a trade, sign a free agent, draft a player.  LB had to go Joe, Chuck hade to go to Trader Jack, SVG has to go to SVG.  Players are what they are and it's up to a coach to play them or not, it's up to the pres to trade them or not.  

Gore is a stupid owner if he keeps him beyond this season.  I'm sure firing SVG isn't the first million dollar bad investment or loss he's suffered so get over having to pay SVG 7 Million not to coach.  Joe paid 3 coaches not to coach (Rick, LB and Flip) imagine that we've fired far better coaches than SVG sorry ass.
avatar
WTF

Posts : 4510
Join date : 2011-12-13

View user profile

Back to top Go down

3 Stooges, ugly girls and the Pistons... Oh My!

Post  Oracle on Wed Apr 11, 2018 11:54 am

@Ballin: The Freep and Snooze? Love your sense of humor, but unfortunately, I think they're right, SVG is more likely to come back than not.

@Wise, @Sparma, @Don: We can all agree that while Drummond puts up some great stats in some areas, he is still about 2 years behind where he should be in development. Call me crazy, but I really do believe he will be close enough next season, close enough to not give up on him now.

@Phillip: Sparma was on the Philly bandwagon early and ofter, my hats off to him, I didn't think they could be this good this fast. Yes Phillip, seeing them perform this well, with an unlimited future makes me jealous as well!

@Murph: Was that shorthand for... "We're F**ked"?  lol

3 Stooges: In the 3 Stooges, Moe would slap Larry, Larry would then slap Curly, but Curly had no one left to slap. That's our roster! We get guys, over pay them, then need to move them, but there's no takers left as stupid as we were... and we keep doing it.

Ugly Girls: If a girl has only decent looks, it's best for her to surround herself with ugly girls so that she stands out more. That's Tolliver! When Tolliver needs to boost his value, he comes here, where it's easy to look good when playing with a bunch of below average scrubs

There is a possible future: A core of Drummond, Griffin and Jackson, when healthy, can get you an 8th seed if properly coached. and higher with a better supporting cast. Sadly, our supporting cast has more questions than answers. Youngsters that haven't made a mark either because of poor coaching or lack of opportunity, to vets that are fringe players, to straight up losers(Leuer leads that crew). I still would like a major overhaul of the supporting cast.
avatar
Oracle

Posts : 6579
Join date : 2011-12-21

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Not Much We Can Do In the Off Season

Post  Murph on Wed Apr 11, 2018 9:00 am

We have pretty much run out of cap space and are locked into most of our bad contracts. With that in mind, there isn't a lot the Pistons can do in the off season.

Trade Reggie Jackson for a better starting PG if you can, but really, who's going to take an often injured PG making $17 million a year?

Acquire the best veteran PG available, through free agency. Kemba will be on the block this off season, but to get him would require we give up another 1st round pick, and many of our young players to get him. I can't see doubling down like that at this point.

Fire SVG, and hire a veteran experienced coach, with a proven track record, such as Jason Kidd. Kidd has the added advantage of thoroughly understanding the PG position.

Do not hire an inexperienced, rookie coach such as Stackhouse (who I loved as a player), or Monty Williams. This is a veteran team and needs a tough, veteran coach.

Then next year, keep Reggie Jackson's and Blake Griffin's minutes down to a bare minimum (24 mpg for RJ, and 28 mpg for Griffin), in an effort to keep both healthy for the playoffs.

Draft an older (junior or senior) experience PG, such as Brunson, Graham or Carter, should we be lucky enough to get them in the 2nd round.

Until these bad contracts expired, that's about all we can do.
avatar
Murph

Posts : 1200
Join date : 2011-12-13
Age : 57
Location : Wilton, CT

View user profile

Back to top Go down

I'm Jelous and I need to admit it

Post  Phil1980boy on Wed Apr 11, 2018 1:57 am

I'm JELOUS OF THE PHILADELPHIL 76ERS!!


Several years ago the 76ERS had Andre Igodulia, Iverson, Holiday, and Mo Cheeks. The 76ERS were headed no where. They might have made the playoffs but only first round, early exits were in their future.

Look at Phily today. 15 wins in A row. The Joke of the league is now the future of the NBA. The 76ERS have Joel, Fultz, A 2019 First round lottery pick, A s.h.i.t load of young talent, the 22nd lowest salary in the entire NBA, A chance to sign Lebron James and Ben Simmons. The new grant hill!!

And here I am stuck with Tom Gores. A loser!

Van Gundy. A guy who does not believe Detroit can win.

Reggie Jackson. TRASH!

Blake Griffith: Over the hill

2019 first round pick: GONE!

Future: lol lol lol lol



THE DETROIT PISTONS SUCK!! thumbs down thumbs down thumbs down thumbs down thumbs down thumbs down thumbs down
avatar
Phil1980boy

Posts : 846
Join date : 2012-01-05

View user profile

Back to top Go down

While most of you seem depressed believing that SVG will actually coach the Pistons, I am depressed that Reggie Jackson and Andre Drummond will be back as well

Post  cool breeze on Tue Apr 10, 2018 7:36 pm

The time has come to cut out the excuses. I loved Oracle's comparison to the guy who was hired to mow the lawn instead of doing the job he was hired to do.

I think Reggie Jackson is a hot dog player no team can ever count on for an entire season. He is a chemistry killer because of his lack of work ethic on defense and his habit of being a ball hog. The only reason he is still a Piston is because no other team would gamble on him because of his current contract. The Pistons are a developing team not a team Reggie should be playing on. Who wants him back between Tom Gores and SVG? Do both of them really want him back and choose to keep him and not explore ways to rid the team of his presence? I think they need to have an excuse for their team being a big loser again. Reggie was injured. With him the Pistons would be great! That will be the story line throughout the summer months. Maybe SVG will leak a story that Reggie has climbed Mt. Everest to improve his conditioning so he has the stamina to move his legs on defense next time around. Then some suckers will buy season tickets and Mr. Gores will tell SVG good job. Good thing I kept you as our coach.

Another tiring story line is Andre Drummond's development. He did fake it for 4 months last season and then said after the last game that all his team needs is some rest. Andre promptly accomplished that goal. He never put in any work with someone who knows how to play defense in the paint. But what is new about AD's attitude towards playing the right way in that area? AD was more engaged this season. But he is a dumb player. If any of you cannot see that then you have not really watched him play defense for an entire game. AD just does not have the mindset of a winning type basketball player. All though his life his coaches have had to take the blame for his mental mistakes. SVG is not alone. Please understand that every other coach he has had has not been able to get AD on board to provide the paint protection any of this team's have needed to win. It would be comical to watch him go blank when balls head for the rim when he is on defense. Every coach in the league knows that AD cannot think quickly enough to box out board crashers. AD hopes the ball comes his way. How many games has the Pistons lost because AD did not box out his man on the final defensive possession of Piston games? Is there a stat on that? AD's agent sure hopes nobody is paying attention to AD's inability to learn the fundamentals or is it lack of desire to become a good defender? I don't care anymore. I am just tired of the same old stuff. Any sane GM or owner should have had enough. AD is just not a serious basketball player. He is a nice guy and fun guy off the court. What I am looking for is a center with the mind of the professional golfers who were in the run for the win at the Masters. They have no guaranteed contracts. They play on skill and guts just like the professional tennis players. Nobody holds their hand or makes excuses for them. Nobody ever blames their coach when they miss the cut and don't get to play on the final day of the tournament. We have watched Piston players in the past who have the correct mind set that allows them to win a lot of basketball games. AD could never be a successful professional golf of tennis player because of his mind. However, in Piston land the fans, coaches and the owner will continue to make excuses for Andre Drummond. It will always be the coach or maybe the ball boy or the cheer leaders. In my opinion, the only positive thing this owner can do now is trade Andre Drummond over the summer. AD is the only player on this team that could bring the Pistons a young developing star caliber player through the draft. If Detroit could get a bunch of draft picks, a workable average NBA center and some junk players and remove AD's salary, the Pistons would be moving in the right direction.

My disappointment with Stan Van Gundy is not that he is guilty of employed the wrong offense that doesn't fit the players. If you are the head coach of the Pistons you have to walk on pins and needles or get in big trouble with the owner. AD has has the hot line phone in his possession all of the time. Dare to hire a shooting coach if you are the head coach? Just try it I dare you. We see where that got SVG when he did that. AD quickly called Tom Gores and that was it. The shooting coach could not get within 30 yards of AD after that call was made. AD can do whatever he wants to do in practice. He can listen or not listen. And AD knows it. SVG said after last season that he wanted AD to come back more "engaged" on defense. Remember that anyone? Was SVG ever allowed to force AD into working with an expert big man coach in the off season to improve AD on his decision making or just fundamentals on defense? NO! The Answer is NO. So this is my big disappointment with SVG. He has no balls. SVG is a politician must like those who work in Washington DC. He puts his finger up to check which way the wind is blowing. If RJ and AD hate that motion offense then OK we will run the pick and roll dummy offense. If RJ and AD take possessions off on defense SVG turns a blind eye and bitches out the low contract players for their mental mistakes. The low contract players don't fake it. They want to improve but are just young players learning the game. But they also see how the big contract players are treated by this head coach. In my mind, SVG will always be a Benedict Arnold after he put an end to the players only meetings after RJ and AD got ruffed up verbally in that one meeting. That hot line to the owner was working that day when AD not only went to the press but told Tom Gores to give SVG his marching orders.

I just can't imagine any true Piston fan bothering to watch AD and RJ again next season. Watching them play for an opposing team would be fun. But unless you need a whip to get off when you have sex, then any healthy Piston fan should spend their time at a high school gym pulling for local kids to have a great season. Maybe I just hate the current NBA game itself. The current NBA game was designed for idiots or lazy players. It takes hard work to run a real half court offense. Remember Richard Hamilton running his butt off on every Piston possession? Remember how hard our big men worked to free him for the mid range shot. The NBA game is designed for players like Charlie V. Just stand at a spot and shoot it from long range. What if the NBA changed the shot clock to 60 seconds? What if the NBA took away the 3 point shot? What if the NBA teams could use a zone defense? All teams now look alike. The players with the best long range shooters win. Back to back games and long road trips with too many game in too short of a period screws the fans who play for the tickets. The owners don't care. Why should fans remain fans of NBA basketball. I really do not know many people who like this game or watch even the playoffs.

The NBA is very dependent on rigging things to get publicity. They create star players. The officials ignore fouls by the selected players on the selected teams created by the NBA Front office. Before every trade deadline somehow the star player's team gets all of the best deals in the trades. The selected teams manage to hold on to their draft picks while owners like this Pistons owner gladly give them away maybe because of some back room deal or perhaps they are told to sacrifice for the health of the NBA. The Pistons get Blake Griffin instead of George Hill because Labron wants Hill and the Clippers want to rid themselves of a foolish contract. OK I will sacrifice says Tom Gores. Tom makes that deal even when his management team are screaming don't do it.

I can't imagine how the NBA can keep television viewers interested? Everything is set up for Labron to somehow win the championship. That will create big interest for next season. Can anyone beat Labron's team? Then comes where will he play next season? What suspense and what else can the sports writers talk about? Meanwhile, the Pistons will lose thousands of potential fans and the arena will remain empty. Then maybe the owner will move the team. Just about that time AD, RJ and BG will be on other teams the new Piston city will get to watch a first round pick point guard suddenly create a winner. The San Diego Pistons will of course throw a bone to old Piston fans and keep a G league team in Detroit. they will move the GR Drive to Detroit where the arena will remain empty. That is what I have been viewing in my crystal ball today but it is a bit cloudy so maybe I am not seeing the future properly.

SVG, RJ, and AD must go. Nothing can be done about BG unless Griffin decides he would rather retire than play for the Pistons. Did Tom Gores ask his son if he wanted BG to play for the Pistons before he made that trade? It could be as simple as that as to how decisions are made with the Pistons.


cool breeze

Posts : 2995
Join date : 2011-12-21

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Are you in charge of the hoes?

Post  Oracle on Tue Apr 10, 2018 5:13 am

Wise cuts to the quick!

Sparma, you make some valid points, which are true, but IMO, it don't matter much anymore.

Stan was hired to do ONE thing... build a winning team!

He wasn't hired to improve Drummond's game, develop rookies, draft great, or bring in the best FA's. If he did any of these things, fine, but he was hired to do whatever was required to win... he did that one year, and then proceeded to screw that team up.

If you hired a person to cut your grass, but all he did was clean off your porch, take out your trash and walk your dog, it's not like you didn't need the other stuff, but you hired him to cut your grass, and he didn't... that's Stan.
avatar
Oracle

Posts : 6579
Join date : 2011-12-21

View user profile

Back to top Go down

More Stan

Post  Sparma on Mon Apr 09, 2018 6:17 pm

Dre's still underachieving, we can agree to that, but I wonder if we can agree to something else. Even if Dre was a bum last year, can we agree that he's improved notably (and in several respects)? That's where the question of credit comes in. I'm inclined to give SVG [hard to believe I'm his defender given that I hope he gets fired!] some credit for this year's Dre over against last year's. What if he deserves no credit though? Wouldn't that suggest that players (as I think) share massively in their fate, and in how the team does, well or badly? But acknowledging as much would cut against the 100% coaching argument.

WTF writes: "Not a single ounce of credit goes to SVG on the few wins this team has, whatever small a success was clearly by circumstance and accident. SVG has always had the team in a position to lose games period."

Wow!!

I'll give an example of how I think things get more complicated. Just watched a condensed version v Memphis (what a sad affair!), but I did catch most of the game v Dallas. I'd say that Reggie and the pick 'n roll with Andre for Detroit pulling out the win there (and Kelser was emphasizing that too). SVG has a ton to do with trading for Reggie with the pick 'n roll with Andre in mind, then signing him to a big contract, etc. So I'm giving Stan a fair bit of credit for the team pulling out a win based heavily on his design. Now, I happen not to be a fan of the Reggie-heavy, or the pick n' roll, style. But it worked v Dallas. So I'm giving him partial credit for that win, even though I'm a critic of the design that was part of the cause of that (ugly) win. From game to game, I think he earns both credit and blame. If the argument's that he's steered the team in the wrong direction on the whole, I'm in agreement. Still not to the point of saying that it's 100% Stan's fault as coach, or even as exec & coach (the necessary condition argument does become tricky).

For instance, I think Reggie J has a default way of playing: slow up the court, lots of dribbling, decisions late in the clock, low energy on D, all things I dislike. Versus Dallas, his style worked out. He CAN play differently, as in the game of the injury when he had 13 assists. I blame SVG as coach, in part, for not bringing out the optimal Reggie J (I think he could have brought him off the bench more, for instance). But I'm not going to say SVG as coach's 100% responsible for the problem, when (for me) a lot of the team's problem turns on Reggie J's default way of playing. Causality becomes, as so often, really difficult to assign with precision. Especially when counterfactuals, what could have been (eg the team could have been x much better than actual performance, if only...), are brought into the picture as they need to be to address the causal impact of the coach with any hope of precision.

btw, I see that Reggie B just praised SVG enthusiastically. So there's that.

In all, a lot of these guys seem like decent, hard working, folks (including SVG), but I'm finding it difficult to really cheer for this team.

We did get in a fun March Madness.





WTF wrote:
Sparma wrote:For instance, I think SVG's has handled Reggie J, Kennard, and Boban badly (but probably deserves some credit for the seasons of Andre and Reggie B). How to sort out coaching causality?

Sorry but AD is grossly underachieving I know you like AD gaudy stats but they are a bit overstated and still wildly inconsistent and yes SVG does get the credit for that as well along with the mishandling of RJ, Kennard, Boban and you can add SJ to the list.  

There's too much overthinking here concerning SVG level of fault when it's clearly his alone.  Not a single ounce of credit goes to SVG on the few wins this team has, whatever small a success was clearly by circumstance and accident.  SVG has always had the team in a position to lose games period.  

This remind me of the scene in Harlem Nights when Quick ask Vera about coming up short "Are you in charge of the hoes?" Yeah Quick I'm in charge of the hoes.  SVG is in charge of the team and like Vera being in charge of the hoes they keep coming up short.
avatar
Sparma

Posts : 1350
Join date : 2011-12-17

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Ayo Piston Fans

Post  BallinD on Mon Apr 09, 2018 2:33 am

The lead Freep and Snooze writers are on their knees singing that SVG will be back for another year of misery, Piston Fans, and that the team is showing it's moxie and being prideful.  We lost to the most tankalicious teams in the Association, all the while trying desperately to win out against teams trying to lose out.  We lost against G-Leaguers and Marc Gasol.  Really folks!!
avatar
BallinD

Posts : 666
Join date : 2015-10-29
Location : Milky Way

View user profile

Back to top Go down

SVG Is In Charge Right!

Post  WTF on Sun Apr 08, 2018 11:06 am

Sparma wrote:For instance, I think SVG's has handled Reggie J, Kennard, and Boban badly (but probably deserves some credit for the seasons of Andre and Reggie B). How to sort out coaching causality?

Sorry but AD is grossly underachieving I know you like AD gaudy stats but they are a bit overstated and still wildly inconsistent and yes SVG does get the credit for that as well along with the mishandling of RJ, Kennard, Boban and you can add SJ to the list.  

There's too much overthinking here concerning SVG level of fault when it's clearly his alone.  Not a single ounce of credit goes to SVG on the few wins this team has, whatever small a success was clearly by circumstance and accident.  SVG has always had the team in a position to lose games period.  

This remind me of the scene in Harlem Nights when Quick ask Vera about coming up short "Are you in charge of the hoes?" Yeah Quick I'm in charge of the hoes.  SVG is in charge of the team and like Vera being in charge of the hoes they keep coming up short.
avatar
WTF

Posts : 4510
Join date : 2011-12-13

View user profile

Back to top Go down

SVG

Post  Sparma on Sat Apr 07, 2018 8:30 pm

BallinG: Yes, it will be extremely tough for SVG to restore his rep, and I'd be shocked if he can. I wouldn't be shocked if the Pistons won as many as 50 games next year though, which I'm guessing would be bad news for us fans in the long run, if it secured his re-up. He's does such a crummy job organizing the O that that may be a great long shot.

I wrote earlier: "I don't agree that the problem is entirely coaching ...."

Oracle asks: "SVG not the only problem?" and states: "To think otherwise requires some strange logic and weird double standards."

Note the discrepancy between Oracle's question and my statement. Paraphrasing my statement: the problem is not 100% (i.e. "entirely") coaching.

I don't want to go down another rabbit hole in responding to a "rant" (or a bit of one) but a few comments may clarify my views.

Might there be a sense in which SVG [i.e. in his full responsibility as executive and coach] is 100% the problem? Arguably, if what's meant is that he's the necessary condition for shaping the roster (with the notable exception of AD). That much may be true. Even concerning the (active) roster, I'd doubt a statement that our problems (or our successes) are entirely caused by SVG (e.g., there's a school of thought that Gores seriously affected the Griffin trade and that he'd resist trading Andre). And SVG doesn't work alone as exec, and some things just may be beyond his control (eg resigning KCP for a reasonable figure). What the role of Tellum? Of playing in a new arena? Of chance, e.g., the lengthy injury to Leuer (not to mention the exception granted the league, which hardly results from SVG's agency). The main guy was already here. It sounds like Gores just wouldn't have allowed his top exec to tank anyway (not that SVG was so inclined), etc.

When focusing on the possibility that the problem is 100% coaching, I'm not even sure what the assertion to the contrary of my position would mean. Also, in trying to fix causation here counterfactuals need to be invoked in a big way. Beyond that, we have limited access to relevant facts. And it's a huge job to sort out the variables involved. I'm comfortable sticking with my not 100% statement. If someone really could establish that it's 100% coaching, that person should publish an article or a book. Bill James is one who's retreated from the task of figuring out just what the role of the manager in baseball is, that after writing a book on managers.

My general position is that excellent (in comparison with replacement level) managers or coaches make a significant difference, and that poor ones do too, but that mediocre coaches and managers (in my view most of them) don't make much difference (again in comparison with replacement level).

I'll confess that a lot of that impression comes from personal experience, from having had a bunch of coaches as well as from being a youth soccer coach. As a coach myself, I might wish it were 100% coaching at times, but it just isn't. Not in my extensive experience with organized sports.

I think a formidable methodological apparatus (as well as fantastic knowledge) would be needed to sort out causality with precision.

And before getting the investigation underway in detail, significant clarification would be needed. For instance, the claim, if not just construed as nonsensical, could be:

a) There's a reasonable level of achievement that's not being attained in a given season, and the cause of that difference is 100% coaching.

b) There's an optimal level of achievement that's not being attained, and the cause of the difference is 100% coaching.

Even if we could agree to using one standard or the other, clearly there's a major problem in fixing what "reasonable" and "optimal" is (witness the range of our predictions).

Further, I think the proponent of either a or b would want to be able to factor in injuries, and their impact, so that the claim becomes something like "Apart from injuries and their impact...." But this clarification itself brings with it tremendous complications (e.g. what role did Reggie J's injuries play this year and last, and why did the impact appear to be different?).

So, at the abstract or theoretical level there are great challenges to be navigated.

When we turn to specifics, complications increase exponentially.

For instance, I think SVG's has handled Reggie J, Kennard, and Boban badly (but probably deserves some credit for the seasons of Andre and Reggie B). How to sort out coaching causality?

I'll take the case where I'm most sympathetic to the it's entirely the coach's fault position: Boban. It looks to me like Pops' playing Boban more minutes and somehow assisting him defensively resulted in optimal (??, or reasonable) productivity from Boban. But what kind of help did he give defensively? I need help here, but I'm guessing that Boban's terrific defensive rating with Pops resulted from adjusting how distance shooting was defended, counting on Boban as anchor near the basket, with other defenders freer to commit to more distance defending. But, if so, a lot depended on SA's defenders too, and not merely Pops' instructions. I'm inclined to systems thinking, and that's an example of it. And then there's another complication with Boban. He was traded, which should help us isolate coaching causality. When I looked up Boban a while ago, he seemed to be doing about the same as in Detroit: not playing much at all, and then playing great on O, and as rebounder, when in there. To me that signals that a great coach was able to get really good productivity from him, while two mediocre coaches managed about the same degree of productivity (fair?) as the other. Clearly, even my lumping SVG and Rivers together as mediocre coaches is controversial, and maybe just plain wrong (Rivers', after all, achieved way beyond SVG, but also with a much better roster & maybe he's doing a great job this year, and a better job with Harris than SVG). In all, in a case that I think might allow for a litmus test, the one in which I'm most inclined to agree with the position that I'm opposing, there are just too many complications for me to be able to agree that it's 100% coaching.

In a way, I'm saying nothing more interesting, or harder to defend, than that life's complicated, and so is basketball. And so is SVG's causal impact, certainly as coach.





avatar
Sparma

Posts : 1350
Join date : 2011-12-17

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Good Rant!

Post  BallinD on Sat Apr 07, 2018 7:19 pm

Great Post Oracle. Truth!

Two recent headlines from former SVG apologists lead me to believe others may be coming around to this point of view:
1. Detroit Pistons signings show pattern of overpaying for role players.
2. Detroit Pistons draft classes lack star power under Stan Van Gundy


And BTW, it is so hard to watch Weggie interviews. He just rubs the wrong way and from his play has not learned nor been coached up to do any damn thing better, nor improve on any of his failings, including overdribbling and ball hogging. Please Please Please get him out of here. He just rankles!

Oracle wrote:SVG not the only problem? To think otherwise requires some strange logic and weird double standards.

Let's see,

1. SVG is in charge of the front office
2. SVG hires all of the coaches and is the Head Coach
3. SVG develops ALL of the players either directly or indirectly
4. Outside of Drummond, this is SVG's team, he's hand picked every one of them

Anything that happens after that, when you control every lever of making a team successful is 100% the fault of the person making the decisions.

SVG is a below average President and a way below average coach.

1. He routinely fails to develop young players, in fact, he generally makes them worse than when they arrived(Stanley?)
2. A coin flip would give you better results of play calling out of a timeout than SVG's designs, worst I've seen here.
3. Halftime adjustments? They simply don't exist!
4. Substitutions? Generally all the wrong ones.
5. Playing players to match up with the other team? Sometimes, but most times he sticks with his old game plan
6. Ability to adjust his scheme to the players he actually has, not the players he wishes he had? Well, that's why we're in the situation we're in. He keeps looking for Mr. GoodBar because he can't figure out how to get the best out of the players he has... News Flash: Your old Orlando team isn't coming back!

I could go on and on, but you get the picture! I'm a little surprised that Sparma is on board with this thinking, but maybe he has reasons I haven't considered, although I'm at a loss to figure out what they could be.

But here is the double standard: Don lays into the players in a different way. For SVG, it's not all his fault, but for the players, ALL of it is on them. He easily forgets that coaching has a huge effect, but that's no excuse for them.

Of course this is the double standard used in many phases of American life. When there was an Opioid crisis in the inner cities, they were just bad people. No sense of urgency, no cry to congress to help. But now that the crisis is in rural America, there's no end to the coverage(Liberal & Conservative) and these people have just fallen on hard times, good people gone wrong.

The more things change... the more they remain the same.
avatar
BallinD

Posts : 666
Join date : 2015-10-29
Location : Milky Way

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Amazing: The more things change... (with a bit of a rant)

Post  Oracle on Sat Apr 07, 2018 6:01 pm

SVG not the only problem? To think otherwise requires some strange logic and weird double standards.

Let's see,

1. SVG is in charge of the front office
2. SVG hires all of the coaches and is the Head Coach
3. SVG develops ALL of the players either directly or indirectly
4. Outside of Drummond, this is SVG's team, he's hand picked every one of them

Anything that happens after that, when you control every lever of making a team successful is 100% the fault of the person making the decisions.

SVG is a below average President and a way below average coach.

1. He routinely fails to develop young players, in fact, he generally makes them worse than when they arrived(Stanley?)
2. A coin flip would give you better results of play calling out of a timeout than SVG's designs, worst I've seen here.
3. Halftime adjustments? They simply don't exist!
4. Substitutions? Generally all the wrong ones.
5. Playing players to match up with the other team? Sometimes, but most times he sticks with his old game plan
6. Ability to adjust his scheme to the players he actually has, not the players he wishes he had? Well, that's why we're in the situation we're in. He keeps looking for Mr. GoodBar because he can't figure out how to get the best out of the players he has... News Flash: Your old Orlando team isn't coming back!

I could go on and on, but you get the picture! I'm a little surprised that Sparma is on board with this thinking, but maybe he has reasons I haven't considered, although I'm at a loss to figure out what they could be.

But here is the double standard: Don lays into the players in a different way. For SVG, it's not all his fault, but for the players, ALL of it is on them. He easily forgets that coaching has a huge effect, but that's no excuse for them.

Of course this is the double standard used in many phases of American life. When there was an Opioid crisis in the inner cities, they were just bad people. No sense of urgency, no cry to congress to help. But now that the crisis is in rural America, there's no end to the coverage(Liberal & Conservative) and these people have just fallen on hard times, good people gone wrong.

The more things change... the more they remain the same.
avatar
Oracle

Posts : 6579
Join date : 2011-12-21

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Thanks for providing your thoughts Piston posters what can we take from this last game?

Post  cool breeze on Sat Apr 07, 2018 12:03 pm

Andre Drummond: I still enjoy breaking down specific games. Last night Andre Drummond proved once again that he is a horrible defender most of the time. He seems to concentrate a bit more late in the game but overall Andre Drummond is still a liability after many seasons of playing with different coaches. Last night he was outfoxed by a fringe player who had an exceptional night playing against our All Star center. One big moment was when AD switched off his man to guard Johnson's man who was driving towards the paint on the wing. The problem with that was Johnson had good position and was in front of the driver. AD decided to veer off of Motley who drifted out beyond the 3 point line and make a big 3 point shot at the end of the quarter. I saw the look Johnson had on his face after that. The television camera also went to SVG and he had a bewildered look on his face. Possession after possession Andre's man also drive around AD when our All Star center gave up baseline or decided not to move his feet and reached giving a clear path for a layup. I am perplexed that fans have bought the cool aide relating to AD. His rebounding stats are fantastic. But how can a team win with stats alone? We need more players with good basketball brains. AD does not have one. Can he acquire a better brain and provide his team with more solid defense? Would AD have a big target on his back if the Pistons ever do become a playoff team? Sorry I know none of you like it when I provide critical observations relating to the key player this franchise banks everything on to become a winner. If AD were just a guy making 6 mil a year and filling a position on the roster that is one thing. But when the owner and head coach banks no AD providing the team with leadership and star caliber play on the floor and cannot mentally do it, that is a obstacle that cannot be overcome to achieve overall success in the future. Can AD iron out his perception of at true leader and smart basketball player really is? It appears all of you believe he can. I have my doubts based on that one screw up by AD in the last defensive stand at the end of regulation. Great shot by AD's man to send the game into overtime. I was just puzzled by AD's reaction. I don't think he even knew that he was the player who caused the game to go into overtime. Incredible moment in time just like the game against Miami last season when AD failed to box out and allowed a fatal tip in over his head. Do any of you believe that opponents have AD's number and always will. There is a fine line to winning and losing. The great players know that.

Reggie Jackson was successful last night in doing what the owner and head coach brought him to the Pistons to do. He dominated Dallas at the end of the 4th quarter like the old Reggie. My problem with that is there is no way the Pistons can become a winner with that type of foolishness. The Pistons were playing the Mavericks and none of their key players were on the floor when Reggie played his one against five offensive game. All 4 Piston teammates of Reggie just stood and watched. AD was of course hoping for a pass in the paint but that was covered. So Reggie dribbled and dribbled and found a crack eventually making a variety of crafty shots. Would any of the current playoff teams have any problem destroying the Pistons if the team played the Reggie ball hog offense late in the 4th quarter? It is a good thing for Reggie to perhaps go solo once or twice in the last 3 minutes of a game, but to depend on that lame style has me wondering if the head coach actually has a brain that works at all. Maybe the Piston brain trust are thinking that once Blake Griffin is healthy (that will be a big if next season especially towards the end of the season) then maybe Reggie can open up Griffin for some uncontested jump shots in crunch time. However, I am a fan of Pop and Boston's head coach. They like to have all 5 players engaged and capable of being a threat in crunch time. That helps with overall team chemistry if everyone is involved. But SVG seems to ignore common sense and Reggie all the freedom he desires. I think that Stanley Johnson got zero touches in the 4th quarter. During that game, Johnson got a ton of deflections and steals and made some great passes for uncontested shots for his teammates. It seems to me that Johnson and others should be trusted to help break down the defense in crunch time. Johnson is a play maker. His shooting is suspect at this time but he knows how the game needs to be played for his team to win. He has always been that type of player. And for all of you who doubt his ability just reflect for a moment and understand that Johnson at 21 years old is the Pistons best defender and perhaps the best passer on the team. All also can create his own shot and can now finish on drives in the paint. He also punishes opponents with his physical nature. Next season Johnson will become the next Jimmy Butler. He will do it all well. And if I am wrong about that then maybe I am off by one year. Within two years Johnson will be a dominate player in the NBA. And most of you have written him off. Pretty sad but I hope Piston management knows who they have and will not give him away as a throw in for another Jon Leuer type player.

Throughout the season the player that stood out as the best Piston player of all was Anthony Tolliver. Some nights his shot wouldn't fall but nobody could ever see him not being engaged and prepared to play. As a starter he has stood out in the last month. That tells me a lot about this team. Management has spent a ton of money on players who have had no history of winning squat. During the key months of January and February our highest paid players were AWOL. However, Tolliver, the guy on a one year contract always came prepared mentally. The Tom Gores trade caused problems preventing the Pistons from having a chance to make the playoffs but overall, this Piston team showed that they are immature. Players play the game not coaches. With all the hype about the failure of the coaching staff which I agree with, my gut tells me that there are big doubts about the true character of our players. You have to hate like hell to lose like the players on the other teams that beat up on our Pistons during those months that separate the men from the boys. We still have a lot of boys. Will they finally become Men next season or put in the necessary hard work to get to a higher level mentally? I have big doubts about that but the Pistons are stuck in the mud and unable to trade either Griffin or Jackson. AD is the player I would trade if the return could be great enough. But that won't happen because of the owner's relationship with AD. So it is all up to AD to decide who he wants to be? Will he be content to make a lot of money and play on a losing or mid level team or will he decide to finally put everything he has into becoming the best basketball player he can possibly become? Everything banks on AD. All of the other current highly paid players in my opinion have limits on high much better they can become. Nobody can count on Blake Griffin to play an entire season. Plus he is a ball dominate player like Reggie. I like balance and players who share the basketball to spread a feeling that there really is a good bond with all the players. Selfish players kill team chemistry. No team wins with bad team chemistry. No coaching staff can create good team chemistry. So the composition of the team is critical to overall success. That is the biggest thing SVG screwed up.

The announcers were talking about Henry Ellenson in a positive way last night. I thought he looked awful. He was out of sync on both offense and defense from lack of playing time. But after missing some wide open looks, Henry didn't give up and made some shots last night. However, it is clear that Ellenson needs a lot of work. Again, I blame his lack of progression directly on the coaching staff and SVG's decision not to place Ellenson on the Drive for the entire season. Henry needs confidence more than anything else.

It is fun to watch the games now even though the Pistons are out of the playoffs. The end is near. Soon we will get to see a lot of teams that are better than the Pistons playing real basketball in the playoffs. I was a bit turned off with all the water works after the game last night when the announcer was trying to interview Reggie Jackson. It appeared that the Pistons players believed that they had just won the championship. There would never be a chance in hell that Zeke would have allowed that type of behavior to happen if he was on this team that could not make the playoffs. It didn't look like the players were pissed off at all with their overall position in the standings. It was time to party. They beat a non playoff team who played only one of their starters. Who are we dealing with when Tolliver will be long gone? The blind leading the blind??

If there is a coaching change who do you want as head coach? And what do you want from a new coaching staff? What style of offense should be used for this team? What style of offense is Reggie Jackson capable of playing if he is playing point guard? If Reggie Jackson is the designated starting point guard set in stone by the owner, who will take the job? Will one or two young players emerge next season as the key players on this Piston team? I believe that for the Pistons to win neither Reggie or Andre can be key players. One or both can contribute but cannot be the focus of the offense. And both Reggie and Andre will need to become more reliable defenders to make the team successful next year. Is there a coach out there who can make those two players better?

cool breeze

Posts : 2995
Join date : 2011-12-21

View user profile

Back to top Go down

What's Luck Got To Do With It?

Post  BallinD on Sat Apr 07, 2018 1:08 am

@sparma...SVG is gonna need some luck to salvage what's left of his reputation.  Speaking of that, oh the irony of SVG spouting off about tanking and the Sixers, and ridiculing them, but the last laugh came even without Embiid playing as they spanked us, and tonight spanked Lebron.  They are for real.  Tanking worked. We can barely beat the tanking teams and lost to most of them.

But I am not advocating tanking because it is too late for that for us.  What can we do?  Weep and watch, I guess.

Sparma wrote:Good luck with that advice to Gores, BallinD.

I'd recommend getting rid of SVG altogether, but I'm not the one who'd need to come up with the, what, 7 mil for dude to sit at home.

I'm a tanking fan, but that seems to have become all too popular, hence a less reliable path to success.  Still, I'd go that way, if possible.  But is it possible?  You'd need to trade Griffin (best player since Grant Hill, as I saw suggested?), but I doubt you could without taking bad contracts back.  Trade Reggie B?  Sure, but you're likely to be worse off, again.

If I had a completely free hand, I'd try to get down to Andre, Reggie B, and Kennard.  Stanley J could stay on his rookie deal, but that gig's up soon.  I'd love to have Tolliver stick around at current pay, but his pay's likely going way up.

Realistically, my advice would need to be (even though sticking to tweaks really bugs me): 1) get rid of SVG, and bring in Billups/ Stackhouse (or a better combo if you can find one!), 2) hold on to the current core, 3) spend a ton of money trying to gain market advantages, especially internationally (as BallinD suggested), 4) take some big chances on vets who are down on their luck, like Rondo (as Murph suggested) two years ago.  Now, that would mean taking a chance on someone like Chris Bosh.

I don't agree that the problem is entirely coaching (for one thing, I share some of Don's doubts about Reggie J specifically, and the clunky roster has to do with the roster, as well as with SVG), but I do think moving SVG is the biggest and best thing that you're actually in a position to do (unless you're planning to move out of town, which Gores might like to do, but which I doubt the league would approve).  A few years ago, I enjoyed reading a book on the Tampa Rays and the "2% advantage".  That's what Gores needs to seize on now: operate smartly and decisively in gaining every small advantage in the market actually available to the team.  When SVG came in, I thought he might be the guy to do so (making several smart trades, and scouring NBA rosters effectively), but it's become clear he's not the guy.

BallinD wrote:Truth is that money talks, and unless Gores can see that even Blake "freaking Griffin" could not fill LCA, nor re-engage the fan base, will he be moved?  He likes SVG, wants desparately to believe in him.  I just added his Twitter handle Tom Gores(@Tom Gores) so I can tweet some reality at him.  

If an empty LCA won't move him, hard to see what will, though it's worth a try, I guess.  My hunch though, is that based on his cap mgmt, (Josh Smith, Moose, KCP, Langston Galloway, Boban -- arrogance and miscalculations) he will lose the big seat and keep the little one.  I want him gone gone, but I'll take it, especially if we can get some Pistons DNA in a leadership spot, overseeing SVG and protecting him from his worst instincts so as a lame duck he cannot do any more damage.  We need to get him a real assistant coach who will be in his ear!
guitar

WTF: There's no doubt that we can argue about a players ability but not as much as it being SVG not being able to coach to their talent.  Why keep trying to run an offense that your roster not suited for.  This is all on SVG and no one else.  How may times had many of us have said that if you give this exact same team to LB, Rick, Flip or Chuck they'll coach it to at least an ECF appearance.  

Do we have a Championship roster? Hell no, but we had one very capable of winning those 50 games many of you predicted they would. We had one capable of the 2nd round in the playoffs.  And when they were sitting 2nd in the conference and 1st in the division the first 25 games of the season some of you might have been thinking ECF.  Sadly the real SVG showed up and killed that dream not the loss of RJ.

Oracle: We've changed players and SVG keeps shuffling the deck, but once he starts coaching, rolling into the season, he keeps coming up craps!

At what point does Gores begin to see that the one looser that is a constant in all of this mess is Stan "F**king" Gundy!
avatar
BallinD

Posts : 666
Join date : 2015-10-29
Location : Milky Way

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Where from here?

Post  Sparma on Fri Apr 06, 2018 7:47 pm

Good luck with that advice to Gores, BallinD.

I'd recommend getting rid of SVG altogether, but I'm not the one who'd need to come up with the, what, 7 mil for dude to sit at home.

I'm a tanking fan, but that seems to have become all too popular, hence a less reliable path to success. Still, I'd go that way, if possible. But is it possible? You'd need to trade Griffin (best player since Grant Hill, as I saw suggested?), but I doubt you could without taking bad contracts back. Trade Reggie B? Sure, but you're likely to be worse off, again.

If I had a completely free hand, I'd try to get down to Andre, Reggie B, and Kennard. Stanley J could stay on his rookie deal, but that gig's up soon. I'd love to have Tolliver stick around at current pay, but his pay's likely going way up.

Realistically, my advice would need to be (even though sticking to tweaks really bugs me): 1) get rid of SVG, and bring in Billups/ Stackhouse (or a better combo if you can find one!), 2) hold on to the current core, 3) spend a ton of money trying to gain market advantages, especially internationally (as BallinD suggested), 4) take some big chances on vets who are down on their luck, like Rondo (as Murph suggested) two years ago. Now, that would mean taking a chance on someone like Chris Bosh.

I don't agree that the problem is entirely coaching (for one thing, I share some of Don's doubts about Reggie J specifically, and the clunky roster has to do with the roster, as well as with SVG), but I do think moving SVG is the biggest and best thing that you're actually in a position to do (unless you're planning to move out of town, which Gores might like to do, but which I doubt the league would approve). A few years ago, I enjoyed reading a book on the Tampa Rays and the "2% advantage". That's what Gores needs to seize on now: operate smartly and decisively in gaining every small advantage in the market actually available to the team. When SVG came in, I thought he might be the guy to do so (making several smart trades, and scouring NBA rosters effectively), but it's become clear he's not the guy.

BallinD wrote:Truth is that money talks, and unless Gores can see that even Blake "freaking Griffin" could not fill LCA, nor re-engage the fan base, will he be moved?  He likes SVG, wants desparately to believe in him.  I just added his Twitter handle Tom Gores(@Tom Gores) so I can tweet some reality at him.  

If an empty LCA won't move him, hard to see what will, though it's worth a try, I guess.  My hunch though, is that based on his cap mgmt, (Josh Smith, Moose, KCP, Langston Galloway, Boban -- arrogance and miscalculations) he will lose the big seat and keep the little one.  I want him gone gone, but I'll take it, especially if we can get some Pistons DNA in a leadership spot, overseeing SVG and protecting him from his worst instincts so as a lame duck he cannot do any more damage.  We need to get him a real assistant coach who will be in his ear!
guitar

WTF: There's no doubt that we can argue about a players ability but not as much as it being SVG not being able to coach to their talent.  Why keep trying to run an offense that your roster not suited for.  This is all on SVG and no one else.  How may times had many of us have said that if you give this exact same team to LB, Rick, Flip or Chuck they'll coach it to at least an ECF appearance.  

Do we have a Championship roster? Hell no, but we had one very capable of winning those 50 games many of you predicted they would. We had one capable of the 2nd round in the playoffs.  And when they were sitting 2nd in the conference and 1st in the division the first 25 games of the season some of you might have been thinking ECF.  Sadly the real SVG showed up and killed that dream not the loss of RJ.

Oracle: We've changed players and SVG keeps shuffling the deck, but once he starts coaching, rolling into the season, he keeps coming up craps!

At what point does Gores begin to see that the one looser that is a constant in all of this mess is Stan "F**king" Gundy!
avatar
Sparma

Posts : 1350
Join date : 2011-12-17

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Where Do We Go From Here

Post  BallinD on Fri Apr 06, 2018 5:14 pm

Truth is that money talks, and unless Gores can see that even Blake "freaking Griffin" could not fill LCA, nor re-engage the fan base, will he be moved?  He likes SVG, wants desparately to believe in him.  I just added his Twitter handle Tom Gores(@Tom Gores) so I can tweet some reality at him.  

If an empty LCA won't move him, hard to see what will, though it's worth a try, I guess.  My hunch though, is that based on his cap mgmt, (Josh Smith, Moose, KCP, Langston Galloway, Boban -- arrogance and miscalculations) he will lose the big seat and keep the little one.  I want him gone gone, but I'll take it, especially if we can get some Pistons DNA in a leadership spot, overseeing SVG and protecting him from his worst instincts so as a lame duck he cannot do any more damage.  We need to get him a real assistant coach who will be in his ear!
guitar

WTF: There's no doubt that we can argue about a players ability but not as much as it being SVG not being able to coach to their talent.  Why keep trying to run an offense that your roster not suited for.  This is all on SVG and no one else.  How may times had many of us have said that if you give this exact same team to LB, Rick, Flip or Chuck they'll coach it to at least an ECF appearance.  

Do we have a Championship roster? Hell no, but we had one very capable of winning those 50 games many of you predicted they would. We had one capable of the 2nd round in the playoffs.  And when they were sitting 2nd in the conference and 1st in the division the first 25 games of the season some of you might have been thinking ECF.  Sadly the real SVG showed up and killed that dream not the loss of RJ.

Oracle: We've changed players and SVG keeps shuffling the deck, but once he starts coaching, rolling into the season, he keeps coming up craps!

At what point does Gores begin to see that the one looser that is a constant in all of this mess is Stan "F**king" Gundy!
avatar
BallinD

Posts : 666
Join date : 2015-10-29
Location : Milky Way

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: FORUM

Post  cool breeze on Fri Apr 06, 2018 4:25 pm

WTF wrote:We can find all the flaws we want to imagine Don when it comes to the players and that's okay but the bulk of the blame goes to SVG coaching and his decisions as President of the Pistons.  In fact because SVG functions in a dual role as Coach and President I would say all the blame is on him because these are his players, he put this roster together only AD remains from Joe's tenure as President.

These are also his assistant coaches, he hired Bower, the team physician, the water boy and towel boy so it is all on him and him alone.  How on earth can you be both coach and president and as head coach not get the players you need from your president.  This doesn't make any logical sense so not you can't as a fan argue not having the right players as being the issue.

Keep in mind that many were thinking this team could win 50 games before the season started with the roster they had so how can it be the wrong players? and again as President how can you not get the players need and as coach how can you not coach the talent you do have?  

There's no doubt that we can argue about a players ability but not as much as it being SVG not being able to coach to their talent.  Why keep trying to run an offense that your roster not suited for.  This is all on SVG and no one else.  How may times had many of us have said that if you give this exact same team to LB, Rick, Flip or Chuck they'll coach it to at least an ECF appearance.  

Do we have a Championship roster? Hell no, but we had one very capable of winning those 50 games many of you predicted they would. We had one capable of the 2nd round in the playoffs.  And when they were sitting 2nd in the conference and 1st in the division the first 25 games of the season some of you might have been thinking ECF.  Sadly the real SVG showed up and killed that dream not the loss of RJ.

I cannot find any fault in what you have said in this post. I find it puzzling that you have omitted the owner's group relating to the Blake Griffin trade. Yet maybe Blake will play great next season and be worth $35Mil. Who knows but I still go back to who in their right mind would make that trade?

Could it be true that SVG bet the farm on Reggie Jackson's ability to run that dysfunctional offense and AD getting 10 dunks a game? My question that nobody I know can answer is what other type of offense can Reggie Jackson be comfortable or successful running? Does anyone wonder if a coach like Jason Kidd took over the Piston team would tolerate Reggie Jackson's style relating to either offense or defense? I just do not believe Kidd would take the job if the owner said he would not remove Jackson. As long as SVG is the head coach, the team will not grow because he is unable to get his highly paid players on board with playing the right way or eliminating or even working on their weaknesses as players. It appears to me that SVG shows a lot of bluster but doesn't have the intestinal fortitude to challenge players like Jackson or Drummond to make significant changes in their style so the team can get better. Yet I do not really know if that is true. Perhaps both Reggie and Andre receive tongue lashings and are schooled by the assistant coaches over and over but nothing sinks in. We just cannot know if we are not part of the team in some way. I just cannot understand why after all this time, AD still cannot figure out that he needs to screen out players crashing the boards or keep contact with the guy he is supposed to defend to he can box out on the defensive glass. Simple stuff but I still do not see AD do the right thing most of the time on defense. the details that we fans see from game to game really do tell the true story. Everyone makes mistakes that cost their team something during every game. But when players keep making the same mistakes it has to be a combination of ineffective coaching and the character of the players themselves. When it comes to Reggie Jackson, who can figure him out? I can't for sure know the real Reggie as a basketball player. Maybe some of you know him much better than myself. To me, he looks like a guy who is flying by the seat of his pants and has no plan from one possession to the next. Also, he doesn't seem to adjust his game from opponent to opponent. Maybe that is the fault of the coaching staff for failing to identify to the players where the weaknesses are within a specific opponent's defense. Going back to the days of Zeke, he seemed to smell a rat or have some specific game plan for each team he came up against. He could play any style to get the best of every team he played against. He got his team on board to play that way as well. It wasn't the coaching during the glory days of the Pistons when Thomas ran the team. It was Isiah Thomas being on the floor and getting his team to play a specific way to beat the team they were playing against. You could have been the head coach WTF and the Pistons still would have won. Today, our players are needy. They have a lot of flaws. The current coach doesn't seem to be able to correct those flaws or doesn't have the guts to confront the highest paid players. He uses the younger more vulnerable players to single out and punish. He watches them closely and ignores the defects of what he considers his star players. Maybe that is normal behavior for coaching in the NBA.

Whoever the coach is next fall, it appears that most of the current roster players will be returning. It will up to them to figure things out. The younger players are now more mature. We have some who had been used to winning a lot before they arrived on the Pistons. Two players stand out to me who have never won much of anything and are our core players and their names are Andre Drummond and Reggie Jackson. Maybe both players are getting tired of being on losing teams and will finally prepare for battle each night instead of once every three nights. And the influence of the young guys might be bigger next season too. Remember the Michael Curry story when Joe Dumars decided he should be the head coach because he thought that Curry could be the team's leader as well as their coach. It was pretty cool when Bill Russell was Boston's player coach. But it appears those days are over. Curry was a flop trying to motivate the Piston team he coached. Winning in the NBA has everything to do with who the players are. What kind of people are they? How serious to they take those regular season games? How must time do they put in to mentally prepare for each game. How hard have they worked to eliminate their weaknesses as players. What kind of leadership skills do the key members of a team have to give to their players. We have no Spartacus. My old high school coach used to ask us "who on this team will be Spartacus this season?" Somehow that all motivated us every time he made that statement. Basketball is a beautiful game when played the right way with players who have a strong bond. The Piston players appear to have a stronger bond than last season but it is still much weaker than all of the playoff teams. They have no Spartacus or Zeke. The Pistons need a new owner, GM, coaching staff, and at least one dynamic point guard. They don't have that guy yet and we only have a 2nd round pick this year. We fans must wait for better times but keep on screaming for positive change. We must be patient with the young players who often take 5 years now to reach their potential because they come to the NBA with too many flaws.

This is the end of another Piston season. It is good to reflect on it and then put it to bed. Meanwhile the press seems excited about shutting down Blake Griffin and now Bullock. What is that all about? More meaningless nonsense I presume.

cool breeze

Posts : 2995
Join date : 2011-12-21

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Don Don't Hate The Players Hate The Coach

Post  WTF on Fri Apr 06, 2018 1:40 pm

We can find all the flaws we want to imagine Don when it comes to the players and that's okay but the bulk of the blame goes to SVG coaching and his decisions as President of the Pistons.  In fact because SVG functions in a dual role as Coach and President I would say all the blame is on him because these are his players, he put this roster together only AD remains from Joe's tenure as President.

These are also his assistant coaches, he hired Bower, the team physician, the water boy and towel boy so it is all on him and him alone.  How on earth can you be both coach and president and as head coach not get the players you need from your president.  This doesn't make any logical sense so not you can't as a fan argue not having the right players as being the issue.

Keep in mind that many were thinking this team could win 50 games before the season started with the roster they had so how can it be the wrong players? and again as President how can you not get the players need and as coach how can you not coach the talent you do have?  

There's no doubt that we can argue about a players ability but not as much as it being SVG not being able to coach to their talent.  Why keep trying to run an offense that your roster not suited for.  This is all on SVG and no one else.  How may times had many of us have said that if you give this exact same team to LB, Rick, Flip or Chuck they'll coach it to at least an ECF appearance.  

Do we have a Championship roster? Hell no, but we had one very capable of winning those 50 games many of you predicted they would. We had one capable of the 2nd round in the playoffs.  And when they were sitting 2nd in the conference and 1st in the division the first 25 games of the season some of you might have been thinking ECF.  Sadly the real SVG showed up and killed that dream not the loss of RJ.
avatar
WTF

Posts : 4510
Join date : 2011-12-13

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Fans who blame the piston's coaching staff including the head coach are partly correct but it is not that simple. The players have to share some of the responsibility too. Do we have the right players?

Post  cool breeze on Fri Apr 06, 2018 12:27 pm

I agree with a lot of the last two posters have said. It is true that Piston management and the press have conspired to create a big lie about why this current Piston team has failed this season. Right now this franchise is in no man's land. Nobody has a crystal ball but one big factor for the Pistons not making the playoffs this year was perhaps the biggest blunder of all which was not created by either the players or the coaching staff. To win in the NBA you need smart high basketball IQ players with amazing talent. Then you need coaches who can communicate and teach the young players how to win in the NBA by creating an offense and defense that works best for the specific players that are under contract. But perhaps the most important ingredient of all relating to creating a winning program is ownership. If you have owners who make close personal friendships with players and base roster decisions on those friendships or go off on your own and make insane trades against the advise of the management team you have hired, then the franchise is doomed to always be below average when compared to the winning type franchises like the Spurs. Who makes the decisions for the Spurs relating to personnel or roster positions? Is it Pop or the owner's group? What the Pistons have is complete dysfunction from the top on down. Right now I do not think this group of players could complete in the playoffs well regardless of who the coaches might be. The trade involving Blake Griffin made no sense at all. That is clearly on the owner and the ownership individuals who advised him to make the trade. The team had a much better chance of making the playoffs with the players that Mr. Gores traded. Note that SVG the guy everyone hates had no part in that trade. That fact must be made clear to all Piston fans. The players who were traded have made the Clippers better and the team is in a much more favorable financial position now. Detroit was a big loser. Not only did the team take on an insane contract but they gave up a number 1 pick in a strong draft class. You have to be an idiot to make that trade. So how can any Piston fan have any hope for the future now? The real truth is the Piston roster is average at best. The best player lately is Tolliver. The best players are not the highest paid players in my opinion. Griffin has always had injury issues. Has he ever make it through a complete season yet without taking a lot of time off? I tell you that trade will go down as the dumbest decision ever made by a Piston owner. The press has tried to cover up this blunder with smoke and mirror. The main stream media has always been corrupt since the old days with the Red Wings when the owner traded away his best player for speaking up for injured players who were living on the streets because of the greed of the owner in that time period.

SVG should be fired for his stupid roster decisions. The owner cannot take the blame for the loss of a 2nd round pick involving the Butter Ball trade. Nelson is over weight and way past his prime. This was a move based on an old friendship and a hope and prayer. Buycks can play circles around Butter Ball. And he is not in the rotation either. The press is also corrupt relating to protecting SVG as well as the Piston owner from any fallout when the team remains in no man's land. How many times this year did we read about the problems relating to bad luck this team has had because Jon Leur is unable to play? Remember at the end of last season when SVG continued to play Leuer big minutes after the Pistons lost that game against Miami when AD failed to box out his man and the Pistons lost on a second chance opportunity with a tip in over AD? SVG kept playing Leuer looking for something to substantiate that bogus free agent signing. Who in hell would have paid Jon Leuer the kind of money he signed that contract for other than an idiot who had no thoughts of long term success for the franchise? It seems all we have seen in the past 7 years is inept leadership from the ownership down to the GM and then coaching staff relating to the Pistons. Joe Dumars started it by trading Billups. Then he traded Knight and Middleton to the Bucks for Jennings. There were no offers on the table for Jennings at the time. The Bucks didn't want him back because his teammates hated playing with him. That fact was never considered by Joe Dumars. Then SVG decides to make a trade for Reggie Jackson. This was a similar situation where nobody on the Thunder team wanted to play basketball with Reggie Jackson. To me at least, when you know as a GM or should know that a player you covet has the label "selfish" or "extremely poor defender because of lack of effort" maybe that should be a red flag. But the story line was in stone created both by Tom Gores and SVG. We will make stars out of Jackson and Drummond with the 4 out and 1 in pick and roll offense. Fill the other spots with players like Leuer. Who cares about building a team through the draft when you suck. Instead the Pistons created a fake team built to finish at best in the 8th spot to just be good enough to make the playoffs.

If the old RJ-AD combination doesn't work or players like Morris stand up and hold a players only meeting then the ownership and SVG will shut it down and remove what they consider the cancer. Those players who question the logic of using the strategy that was not working must be punished.

The press, ownership and SVG's management crew have been working hard to spin the downfall of the franchise in the only way they can spin it. Last season Reggie suffered an injury so the Pistons got blown out consistently. But next season would of course restore the mojo the team had shown in the lone season where Detroit did make the playoffs but didn't win one game in the playoffs. Yes Reggie was hurt and that explained everything. This season started with no changes in the offense or defense. So it appears the coaching staff was content thinking the Pistons could win it all with Reggie Jackson and AD leading the way. They would be more mature this time around. Reggie Jackson would be ready to complete a full season and would be the closer in this two man show. Notice the other younger players played no part in anything. They were there to fill spots on the floor so the point guard could create everything needed for success. Besides fans love to see fast point guards dribbling around and somehow scoring against 5 defenders. They love it! We will give them that show. But damn it all, Reggie goes down with another big injury. For awhile after Reggie went down the media made a big deal of Leuer's injury. What will we do now with Leuer and Reggie both unable to play? This will be very difficult. Our backs are against the wall. Enough of this bull crap. The Pistons will never win anything with Jackson and Leuer. It won't happen. They won't win with SVG or this owner either.

We need the owner to agree to sell this Piston franchise. That owner will of course fire SVG. Then the Pistons will suffer though several seasons while trying to rid themselves of some of their contracts and big a team through the draft. There are 4 players worth retaining because they don't cost much money and are young. Those players are Johnson who has 3 years of experience but is only 21 years old. He is the best defender on the current team and will excel under the leadership of a new coach. Bullock is another player who shows great potential as an offensive scorer and athletic defender. Kennard is another player who has great potential and a great chance of being a leader because of his high basketball IQ. Luke should be moved to the starting point guard spot once Reggie is history. Some might say that is insane but I see him as a smart field general who will make great decisions on offense and can defend better than any of our current point guards. The other player is the forgotten Henry Ellenson who has been sitting on the bench now for two seasons. He should have been playing his entire first season in the D League. And if not used this season he should have had a complete season in the G league with the Drive. It was idiotic for SVG to sit him on the bench all season long and expect him to shine now. If he had been playing in games two to or three nights a week and building confidence as being one of the core players in the G League, if Henry had been brought up to the Pistons now, he would be confident, in great game shape, and would have worked out his timing issues and for sure gotten better on the defensive end. For that alone, SVG should be fired.

The only positive thing that I can say is that Andre Drummond got somewhat better as a defender this season. He still is not a smart player and he knows it. But now he is making a better effort on defense in the 4th quarter at least. And we have the other young developing players that I mentioned above. If the Pistons had a new coach with no vested interest as SVG has, I would think that the Piston offense would look much different. The new coach would not tolerate Reggie or Ish dominating the offense like they currently are doing. If a healthy Reggie picked his spots to go one on one and become a scoring force, that is OK. But in the last game, he was very consistent in his tendency to center the offense around himself. It seems that SVG has no control over either Reggie or Andre. He appears to be afraid of both players so how can they improve if the coach is a weeny who flaps his arms like a scared chicken from the sidelines? Under a coach like Pop, AD would have conformed to the role he needs to play for his team to win. He would need to cut out the nonsense relating to his offensive development and would be a supreme rim protector and help defender. Now his teammates need to help AD most of the time. You are all right, SVG needs to go. But we also need better players and a new owner. None of the above will be happening anytime soon. So all we can do is bitch. At least we don't have to worry about who the Pistons will take in the first round this summer. That stupidity is on Tom Gores himself. There was never a need to give up that pick. Instead, I bet the Clippers would have given a first rounder to the Pistons to take Griffin's contract. Dumb as a box of rocks and we fans can expect more dumb decisions in the future.

cool breeze

Posts : 2995
Join date : 2011-12-21

View user profile

Back to top Go down

It's all SVG...

Post  Oracle on Fri Apr 06, 2018 5:19 am

Wise wrote:All ready they're pinning this season on losing RJ   and maybe I'll agree if we were talking about advancing deep in the playoffs,  but losing RJ is not an excuse or reason for this team not making the playoffs as an 8th or 7th seed.  Please Local Media!!!!! you can stop with that BS right now.

SVG is the only reason this team failed PERIOD!!!!!!
We've all had a player or two that we thought might have been the problem, hell, we do need upgrades at a few positions.

But truth be told, we've had and have enough talent to be in the playoffs without any question! First round fodder? Maybe, but we should be there.

We've changed players and SVG keeps shuffling the deck, but once he starts coaching, rolling into the season, he keeps coming up craps!

At what point does Gores begin to see that the one looser that is a constant in all of this mess is Stan "F**king" Gundy!

BTW: too bad about Kyrie Irving,
avatar
Oracle

Posts : 6579
Join date : 2011-12-21

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Give Me A Break Please

Post  WTF on Fri Apr 06, 2018 12:43 am

Coach That Should Be Fired wrote:“Even though we knew the chances were slim, our guys had kept fighting. There was a real disappointment in last night,” Van Gundy said. “It’s been a difficult year for a lot of reasons and these guys, to their credit, have stayed together and kept fighting. It was a blow. It certainly wasn’t a happy locker room — nor should it have been.
“I expect that they’ll come out and play these next four games hard too and continue to fight.”
Though there’s no postseason to play for, there is the goal of a 41-41 finish and getting back to .500 after a miserable stretch with Jackson out.

Can you imagine our winning coaches patting the team on the head for not making the playoffs.  How sad that the fight is just to become a .500 squad at season end as if it accounts for something.   

Maybe our sports have become too liberal and politically correct because what should be happening in the media right now is that every local outlet should be screaming for SVG head the minute that e for elimination got place to the team name in the standings. I mean really every mistake-misstep should be put front and center and he and Gores should be called to the carpet on it. 

All ready they're pinning this season on losing RJ  facepalm and maybe I'll agree if we were talking about advancing deep in the playoffs,  but losing RJ is not an excuse or reason for this team not making the playoffs as an 8th or 7th seed.  Please Local Media!!!!! you can stop with that BS right now.

SVG is the only reason this team failed PERIOD!!!!!!
avatar
WTF

Posts : 4510
Join date : 2011-12-13

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: FORUM

Post  Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

Page 19 of 42 Previous  1 ... 11 ... 18, 19, 20 ... 30 ... 42  Next

Back to top


 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum