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Re: FORUM

Post  cool breeze on Sat Apr 14, 2018 12:30 am

WTF wrote:
Murph wrote:My biggest criticism of Flip Saunders was that he refused to develop Arron Afflalo, Amir Johnson and Rodney Stuckey.  In hindsight, I stand by that criticism.  Both Afflalo and Johnson had long and productive NBA careers, are still playing in the NBA, and would have helped the Pistons a great deal had they been developed by Flip and not dumped by Joe.  Stuckey's career was somewhat disappointing.

I have to disagree some on this Murph.  I don't think Flip had anything to do with moving either Affalo or Johnson that was strictly Joe's doing and as for the development part Flip wanted to keep Affalo for certain and did play him.  I do recall all the banter to give Johnson more PT but Flip did give him opportunity for a player drafted last in the draft.  Johnson had potential but not star potential and the pressure was on Flip to win a title more than developing a project.

I'm also not sure Johnson had a better career than Stuckey did although I always thought Affalo was better than Stuckey but I also thought both should have eventually replaced CB and Rip but Joe screwed that up as well.  Rodney had a great season under Flip with the help of CB and Joe screwed that up when he fired Flip and traded CB.  

In my opinion not much I can blame Flip for as coach

WTF you are 100% correct about Flip. What a great coach!! Joe Dumars never knew what he had in Affalo. He had hit the jackpot with Affalo but ignored didn't know that he didn't know because his emotional relationship with Rodney. Affalo was MVP of the old PAC10 and was an incredible college player who had all the right stuff to contribute right away in the NBA. Joe removes Arron to eliminate competition for playing time involving Stuckey. And to move Amir was just as dumb. Fans get impatient with young players. Joe listens and makes a dumb mistake.

We have to go back to the era of the Bad Boys to find sanity with ownership, GM, and head coach. What a great time it was. And the players did not act like small children. They were always ready to play smart.

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Re: FORUM

Post  cool breeze on Sat Apr 14, 2018 12:13 am

BallinD wrote:It will be a disaster if Gores nibbles around the edges of the elephant in the room and lets SVG stay in either role, especially coach, but also PBO.  That is unless they force him to take on a new GM of independent mind -- and even then I think he is a better PBO than coach, but will his capacious ego even allow for that?  Well...Doc Rivers was relieved of his GM duties and he didnt appear to blink.  He is most definitely a better coach than old Yeller.  Is Stupid Van Gundy too egotistical to accept the same fate as Doc.  Budenholzer also lost his dual role and he is a better coach than SVG.  There are plenty of coaches out there and I have posted before about that, but if Gores grows some balls, we will all be eagerly examining the coaching options.

We should have known how egotistical and stupid Van Gundy was, when he turned down the opportunity to be Steve Kerr (Warriors job) and decided instead he would rather be a Piston in the style of Kuester Kuester

For all you small sample size haterz, get ready for the Big Enchilada.  None other than SVG, our PBO is now claiming that four games of Blake and Reggie with Dre is enough at a 3-1 record to predict we will idealy win at a .750 clip next year, according to Langlois at Pistons.com.  Wow.  can you say Delusional.

Will it be possible to improve this team?  Yes.  Can we get in on the Kawahi Sweepstakes?  Probably won't win, but a package of Drum and Weggie for Kawahi and Dejuonte Murray and filler (could we sign and trade Tolliver) plus cash could get her done.  We would have our young "pure" PG prospect, 6'5" at age 21.  Kawahi has Pistons DNA and is a true superstar to pair with Griffin.  Hate to trade Dre, who is trending upward, but Kawahi is worth it.  He has more value than Dre. Sweet Dreams Are Made of This.

WOW! Ballin I like it. Kawahi in a Piston uniform would be a true miracle involving our Pistons. But as one reporter stated yesterday, Tom Gores has announced that he must meet with SVG to determine his future. But before that happens according to the reporter, Mr. Gores will either meet or call Andre Drummond to get his feeling on SVG's future. This relationship comes first. The relationship between the owner and our All Star center has been the problem since that bolt of lightning struck and their bond was set in stone for eternity. The fatal mistake where a team owner makes every decision based on one player's view. To seek advice from a player who still hasn't learned how or cares to learn how to box out board crashers makes for good comedy.

What will AD tell the owner? Will he remind Mr. Gores how SVG came to his aid after the players only meeting last season where players who were embarrassed about getting blown out in the first quarter of most games challenged both AD and RJ. What was said was not pleasant and AD hates to be criticized, so he went public and SVG then declared no additional players only meeting would be allowed. I still cannot forget this incident. I have never heard of such a thing. Most of the time owners and coaches love it when players meet when things are going bad to try to sort things out so the team can all get on the same page. After that meeting and AD's behavior after it did the opposite. Then our starting center took the rest of the season off. His feelings were hurt. They picked on his buddy RJ. He loves RJ. RJ gets him the ball. AD loves the dysfunctional offense SVG ran most likely because the owner told him he had to run it to make AD happy.

So your idea is great but there is no way that Andre Drummond will ever be traded no matter what he does on the court as long as the Pistons are owned by Tom Gores. The bond comes first. Mr. Gores would rather see an empty arena and watch his center pile up those stats and the team never make the playoffs rather than trade the one guy who could change the Pistons and put the team on the right course. It sounds like I hate Andre Drummond. But I have no hatred for this man. He is a nice guy but is not a serious basketball player. He played much better this season too. But there is no other Piston player who could bring the Pistons a great return. The Pistons need a dynamic top notch type player who can be the best player at his position in the NBA. And that guy needs to be a point guard for the Pistons to rise to the top. Personal relationships between an owner and a player is a kiss of death. The future of a coach or GM might be determined based on one player perhaps. Many of us have provided our view of SVG's positives and negatives relating to the job he has done based on watching the team play. Would we be more objective than one of SVG's players? This nonsense might be comparable to what is going on in the world of business today where big mega corporations base decisions on surveys completed by customers instead of making sure their management people are actually working on the site and know who their outstanding employees might be by watching them work. My wife is a nurse and her hospital sends our surveys to all patients. Some of them come to the hospital from prison to have surgery (even sex change procedures). Many get great service still cannot resist the temptation to hurt someone like a nurse for the fun of it. Maybe Tom Gores should send out a survey through e-mail to all season ticket holders and await their responses. Then he can compare those responses to what AD says about SVG and then make his big decision. Meanwhile, the opportunity will slip away to move AD and RJ. I really think AD will say that SVG is a great coach. After all all SVG has done is kiss his ass since he arrived. Knowing about this special relationship between player and owner, it would be a kiss of death to say anything critical to a player who has developed such a special bond with Tom Gores. Neither AD or RJ have Piston DNA and never will have it. What kind of DNA does this owner have? Does he have Clippers DNA? I believe that the Pistons might never win anything in the future as long as the Pistons are owned by this ownership group.

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If They Keep Him

Post  BallinD on Fri Apr 13, 2018 5:27 pm

It will be a disaster if Gores nibbles around the edges of the elephant in the room and lets SVG stay in either role, especially coach, but also PBO.  That is unless they force him to take on a new GM of independent mind -- and even then I think he is a better PBO than coach, but will his capacious ego even allow for that?  Well...Doc Rivers was relieved of his GM duties and he didnt appear to blink.  He is most definitely a better coach than old Yeller.  Is Stupid Van Gundy too egotistical to accept the same fate as Doc.  Budenholzer also lost his dual role and he is a better coach than SVG.  There are plenty of coaches out there and I have posted before about that, but if Gores grows some balls, we will all be eagerly examining the coaching options.

We should have known how egotistical and stupid Van Gundy was, when he turned down the opportunity to be Steve Kerr (Warriors job) and decided instead he would rather be a Piston in the style of Kuester Kuester

For all you small sample size haterz, get ready for the Big Enchilada.  None other than SVG, our PBO is now claiming that four games of Blake and Reggie with Dre is enough at a 3-1 record to predict we will idealy win at a .750 clip next year, according to Langlois at Pistons.com.  Wow.  can you say Delusional.

Will it be possible to improve this team?  Yes.  Can we get in on the Kawahi Sweepstakes?  Probably won't win, but a package of Drum and Weggie for Kawahi and Dejuonte Murray and filler (could we sign and trade Tolliver) plus cash could get her done.  We would have our young "pure" PG prospect, 6'5" at age 21.  Kawahi has Pistons DNA and is a true superstar to pair with Griffin.  Hate to trade Dre, who is trending upward, but Kawahi is worth it.  He has more value than Dre. Sweet Dreams Are Made of This.
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Still Some Hope

Post  WTF on Fri Apr 13, 2018 2:56 pm

The Pistons really needs to go for broke in an all out effort to win it all if not next season then the following season.  They can ride it out with both Blake and AD but need to put a few pieces around them and I don't mean the likes of Tolliver, Ish  and all the other trash pieces.  I not trashing Jackson but he is not the next level type PG that can take a team to the Finals so if we can move him for Walker than we should even at the expense of losing a draft pick to do so.

But first things first they need to fire SVG before anything can make any sense.   They could even ride it out without have Blake which I think Jordan would take in exchange for Walker and their draft pick.  Lets not keep thinking we're stuck because not only do I think Charlotte would take Blake so would Boston and Cleveland especially if Lebron stays.  It's a ton of things that could happen we just need the right people in charge and SVG not that guy.
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@ Murph

Post  WTF on Fri Apr 13, 2018 2:04 pm

Murph wrote:My biggest criticism of Flip Saunders was that he refused to develop Arron Afflalo, Amir Johnson and Rodney Stuckey.  In hindsight, I stand by that criticism.  Both Afflalo and Johnson had long and productive NBA careers, are still playing in the NBA, and would have helped the Pistons a great deal had they been developed by Flip and not dumped by Joe.  Stuckey's career was somewhat disappointing.

I have to disagree some on this Murph.  I don't think Flip had anything to do with moving either Affalo or Johnson that was strictly Joe's doing and as for the development part Flip wanted to keep Affalo for certain and did play him.  I do recall all the banter to give Johnson more PT but Flip did give him opportunity for a player drafted last in the draft.  Johnson had potential but not star potential and the pressure was on Flip to win a title more than developing a project.

I'm also not sure Johnson had a better career than Stuckey did although I always thought Affalo was better than Stuckey but I also thought both should have eventually replaced CB and Rip but Joe screwed that up as well.  Rodney had a great season under Flip with the help of CB and Joe screwed that up when he fired Flip and traded CB.  

In my opinion not much I can blame Flip for as coach
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Why do I love this forum so much?

Post  Oracle on Fri Apr 13, 2018 2:04 pm

We post things the talking and Writing Heads don't, and appear to never think of!
Wise wrote:This is a team without an identity going on 10 years now and that's sad.  Unless that identity is "Boys Bad at Goin To Work"  The first thing is SVG needs to be fired to start fixing what's wrong here.   Now I don't agree that a rebuild is impossible and that we can't move AD and Blake and stuck without an out I think we could move them.  I know that every move must be calculated even the risky bold moves because I think this team might have made the playoffs had they not traded away Harris.
Wise, I liked this entire post, but the smartest part was the belief that we can move these contracts. Just like in the Godfather, where history showed them that you can get to anybody, history tells us that there isn't any bad contract that can't be moved. I think Blake can be moved with a good, not great return, and IMO, that would be a good thing.

Having said that, there are just a bunch of smaller but crazy highly paid scrubs on this team, and that has to change in the off season.
Sparma wrote:SVG's only value to me is to do the work of moving his overpaid scrubs before he gets fired.
Maybe I'm all wet here, in part because I'm venturing an insight based on my own playing experience.  How many coaches call for five guys to hit the boards?  Andre's such a beast on the offensive boards, that he affords a different possibility.  I think he's so good on the offensive boards on his own that the team can leave an unusual proportion of that chore to one person while still getting solid results, allowing his teammates to cheat towards their own end a fraction of a second early, hence cutting down on those fast break possibilities.  If so, Andre contributes to D in a way for which he never gets credit.
News Flash: Sparma, you're hardly wet! This is a very good observation, frankly one that we all see, but in my case, never fully appreciated. Drummond is complicated, and really does need, and Murph pointed out, a better coach and a better supporting cast.

Murph wrote:I only defend Drummond against Don's irrational and relentless rants against him.  Drummond is our best player, our only current All Star, an athletic freak, and puts up Hall of Fame numbers.

And you have to remember that Drummond was a steal in the draft.  He was taken at #9 in the 2012 draft.  To put that in perspective, Stanley Johnson was taken at #8.   

And we all have to remember that Drummond is still only 24 years old.  To put that in perspective, Ben Wallace didn't become Ben Wallace until he was traded to the Pistons and began to start at center at the age of 26.  And Bill Laimbeer didn't become Bill Laimbeer until he was traded to the Pistons and began to start at center  at the age of 25.

Ben Wallace played with and All Star backcourt of C-Bill and Richard Hamilton. Bill Laimbeer played with a HOF backcourt of Zeke and Joe Dumars.  To put that in perspective, Drummond had to play most of this season with a backcourt of Ish Smith and Reggie Bullock, who is a SF playing out of position.

Wallace was coached by HOFer Larry Brown, while Bill Laimbeer was coached by HOFer Chuck Daly.  To put that in perspective, Drummond is coached by the dim-witted and soon to be unemployed SVG. 
Yup, Don is pretty relentless on Drummond. I wouldn't mind if he was consistent and applied that to every player, but he has a special venom reserved for certain players... hopefully he'll mellow a bit.

However, thanks for putting Drummond in context, it's important to recognize the conditions under which he's playing.

BTW, I also liked your other post. IMO, Stuckey had all of the tools, and another 2 years under Chauncey's leadership would have served him well. Joe moved Chauncey way too soon, IMO.
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Flip

Post  Murph on Fri Apr 13, 2018 6:10 am

My biggest criticism of Flip Saunders was that he refused to develop Arron Afflalo, Amir Johnson and Rodney Stuckey. In hindsight, I stand by that criticism. Both Afflalo and Johnson had long and productive NBA careers, are still playing in the NBA, and would have helped the Pistons a great deal had they been developed by Flip and not dumped by Joe. Stuckey's career was somewhat disappointing.
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Re: FORUM

Post  Murph on Fri Apr 13, 2018 6:04 am

WTF wrote:I think I've been down this road before but I'll take one more trip just to remind everyone what it use to be like and how far we've had falling away from that thing we once proudly cherished.  DNA! DNA! DNA!  PISTONS DNA!!!!

We all know better, we now what it takes and where it comes from and this organization doesn't have it anymore.  We know what All Stars look like, we know what coaching looks like, we know what effort looks like.  We have suffered the agony of defeat and found joy in the thrill of victory we've been to the mountain too many times to know that this team doesn't have what we know in our hearts win championship.

Cherish AD as you wish but you know deep in your hearts beyond his stats he is not on the level of Big Ben and Bill and you all know it. Or at least that is what I've been trying to tell everyone.  Lets stop kidding ourselves because we all know what is missing from AD game which is why he's wildly inconsistent game to game.  

We know what great coaching looks like, we know what a great PG looks like,  we know what a winning team looks like and we didn't need no dumb ass stats and advance statistical bullshit to tell us differently.  I don't give as **** what AD stats are he's not nor will he ever be on the level of not just Ben and Bill but others at his position that carried that Pistons DNA.    He don't have it and likely never will.

I don't understand why we accept anything with team, we have bashed far better coaches than SVG, we have bashed far better players than AD, RJ, and others on this team.  We have bashed far better drafted picks than SJ yet we have lowered the bar so low in what we expect, we play this wait and see game season after season SMH.  

I'm sorry again this is 100% on SVG because he's in charge, in a way no other coach we had could have imagine,  SVG had to go to himself to make a trade, sign a free agent, draft a player.  LB had to go Joe, Chuck hade to go to Trader Jack, SVG has to go to SVG.  Players are what they are and it's up to a coach to play them or not, it's up to the pres to trade them or not.  

Gore is a stupid owner if he keeps him beyond this season.  I'm sure firing SVG isn't the first million dollar bad investment or loss he's suffered so get over having to pay SVG 7 Million not to coach.  Joe paid 3 coaches not to coach (Rick, LB and Flip) imagine that we've fired far better coaches than SVG sorry ass.

I only defend Drummond against Don's irrational and relentless rants against him.  Drummond is our best player, our only current All Star, an athletic freak, and puts up Hall of Fame numbers.

And you have to remember that Drummond was a steal in the draft.  He was taken at #9 in the 2012 draft.  To put that in perspective, Stanley Johnson was taken at #8.  lol

And we all have to remember that Drummond is still only 24 years old.  To put that in perspective, Ben Wallace didn't become Ben Wallace until he was traded to the Pistons and began to start at center at the age of 26.  And Bill Laimbeer didn't become Bill Laimbeer until he was traded to the Pistons and began to start at center  at the age of 25.

Ben Wallace played with and All Star backcourt of C-Bill and Richard Hamilton. Bill Laimbeer played with a HOF backcourt of Zeke and Joe Dumars.  To put that in perspective, Drummond had to play most of this season with a backcourt of Ish Smith and Reggie Bullock, who is a SF playing out of position.

Wallace was coached by HOFer Larry Brown, while Bill Laimbeer was coached by HOFer Chuck Daly.  To put that in perspective, Drummond is coached by the dim-witted and soon to be unemployed SVG. facepalm

And I don't know about you, but I've never bashed any Detroit Piston as a player who was better than Drummond, except maybe Iverson, who was in the death throws of a dying career.  

All I'm saying is that Don has gone off the rails with his rants against Drummond.  He's taken out all his frustration of Stanley Johnson's miserable career and the Pistons disappointing season on Drummond.  He writes page after page after page, with no paragraph breaks, bashing Drummond.  I literally only read the first sentence of every mind numbing paragraph of his rants, and then skip over the rest.


Last edited by Murph on Fri Apr 13, 2018 7:47 am; edited 2 times in total
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I Just Hate SVG

Post  WTF on Fri Apr 13, 2018 2:04 am

Two ways to look at the Gore perspective maybe three but as Oracle stated in one post that you hire someone to do the lawn you don't expect them to do other things and not cut the lawn.  I would like to think that Gore hired SVG to create a winning team in which he failed at miserably considering we have one of the highest payrolls and SVG virtually holds all the decision making with the team it 100% on him IMO.  To me it's like blaming all the world woes on God himself for humanities failures when you throw it back at ownership.  Yes I think Gore isn't a good owner but I can't say he has impacts on wins/losses with the team. 

I don't like it when a coach or anyone in charge for that matter uses phrase like "will have to see" or "figure it out"  how many of us can get away with those kind of statements in our jobs when we're tasked with a job or responsibility.    It bothers me because SVG has from now to October to look at tape, go over stats, all the advance data to have a general idea if not a definite idea of what his plan of attack should be going into preseason.  The fact that he spent an entire season trying to figure this roster out was very disturbing for someone getting paid 7 million a year when many of us posting saw things more quicker and clearer sitting at home watching games.  

There are many of cases in which a coach isn't a 100% the blame but that isn't the case with SVG.  I recall defending Flip to no end when others thought he was the blame, even a 100% blame so I understand not wanting to fully put it on a coach.   See there are times when other things get in the way and Joe was often the thing in the way of Flip but SVG has nothing in his way.  I don't think any of winning coaches ever conceded to not knowing anything beyond the outcome of a game so hearing say he needed to figure out how to use Blake, or adjusting the roster all season speaks volumes on where the blame lies. 

Yes one could play the what if game to remove some blame by saying if this player did this better or that better this night have happened but that type of argument should only apply to Next Level Type Teams in big moment games not when you're a team struggling to be .500.   I didn't like the SVG hire but I expected better, really a whole lot better than what he's shown as a coach.   

I've defended both Frank and Cheek as coaches because Joe was in the way of any success they could have had here.  I could probably make a case for a lot of coaches we had over the years but only this Coach in SVG can I honestly say with all my heart and soul is the only reason this team is failed. Flawed as many of these players are they were capable of winning 50 games and the only thing holding them back from that was SVG 

I can break it down to a blown play by a player at the end of a game, a bad shot, a missed FT and say maybe we win this game or that game. But it's was hard to ignore all the bad coaching that lead up those moments or caused those moments because as I stated in a previous post SVG never had the team in a position to win games that it was all circumstances and accidental.  The majority if not all those 43 losses were a direct result of poor coaching.  

Coaching doesn't only happen during games, it's preparation and planning before games as well.   Player improvement sucks.....
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A few more things

Post  Sparma on Fri Apr 13, 2018 12:40 am

I think there's a lot of agreement about SVG.  I've just gotten hung up on the 100% on him claim.  Wise, you yourself bring up one of the big reasons to question the 100% thesis by mentioning Gores.  It made such a difference that from the get go Gores didn't have the stomach for a long term rebuild (btw Hinkie-style tanking shouldn't be confused with just losing for a long time, which we've managed to do pretty well for nearly a decade now (with one hiccup); think back on Hinkie's multi-faceted manifesto).  Of course, Gores found the perfect partner in crime for his win now, as we rebuild, mentality in SVG, so there's that.

Something that troubles me about SVG moving forward is him talking about all the adjustments that could be made with Griffin.  Maybe so, but remember how they had so much time to plot changes over the all star break, then came out flat as a pancake.  The biggest adjustment seemed to be having Griffin carry more of the offensive load, which I don't think is a good long plan.  I'm pretty skeptical a summer's going to lead to a flowing offense during the course of a whole season.  I will venture an early guess that they'll have a winning season, but barely.

Maybe SVG doesn't have a future in the D.  I still see him back as coach next year, on a short leash, ready to be axed if the year doesn't start well, with greatly diminished front office responsibilities.  Wish they could turn over a bunch of coaching responsibility to a brilliant assistant coach, but that doesn't seem to be how the NBA works.

Stanley J.'s gotten worse with his three point shooting each season.  He did have his best PER though, a bit better than his rookie #.

Eric Moreland back with 20 pounds of added muscle?  Of course, I'd root for that.  He's a hard working guy with some skill; essentially, I think he doesn't have the size to play the defensive stopper role that he'd need to to really succeed.  But 20, or 30, pounds of muscle would help a ton.

Thought I heard v Chicago that Detroit's best in the league (or really good, at least) in letting up few fast break points.  I still don't like their positional D, or Andre's individually.  I think Andre deserves credit on D in a way that I haven't heard from others.  Maybe I'm all wet here, in part because I'm venturing an insight based on my own playing experience.  How many coaches call for five guys to hit the boards?  Andre's such a beast on the offensive boards, that he affords a different possibility.  I think he's so good on the offensive boards on his own that the team can leave an unusual proportion of that chore to one person while still getting solid results, allowing his teammates to cheat towards their own end a fraction of a second early, hence cutting down on those fast break possibilities.  If so, Andre contributes to D in a way for which he never gets credit.  

I noticed that only 12 teams (40%) had losing records.  I'm guessing that's a really low percentage of losing team, historically speaking, tracing to so many teams working so hard to lose this season.  Among teams that were trying it was almost impossible not to have a winning season.  And yet we pulled it off!
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Just Talking

Post  WTF on Thu Apr 12, 2018 11:35 pm

We did tank for 5 or 6 straight seasons and it got us nowhere,  at least sorta kind of before SVG took over from Joe.  Knight, Monroe, Andre, and Pope were all lottery picks and then you toss in Johnson and Kennard both under SVG and these were primed positions in the draft these players were drafted at.  I am not so sure tanking could've or could work under Joe and now SVG.

Looking from the outside I don't think ownership or management have a real plan in place and they're blindly throwing **** at the wall hoping something sticks.  The first turd thrown at the wall was Gore hiring SVG in fact it might be the only turd thrown but it was a slimy turd that's dripping on the wall and the drippings are everything SVG trying to implement as President and Coach.  Clearly you can put 1005 blame on Gore after all he's the one that tossed that turd in the first place so in that perspective Sparma SVG doesn't get total blame.  However SVG is the turd on the wall that's dripping and causing the mess so for that he is a 100% to blame when it comes to the failure of the team.

There no one definitive statement or point to prove that SVG is 100% at fault but a collection of telling events that accumulates to the conclusion that SVG is alone the sole cause of failure this team has suffered under his charge.   This team isn't as bad as many think and I don't feel as if we're doomed with roster we have and that he changes to the roster needed are minimum.  What we lack is direction and a solid plan for getting where we need to go, what we're lacking is some leadership and motivation.   

We need a coach with the my way or the highway mentality as long his way is the right way, we need a coach that can coach up talent and able to adapt. I honestly believe that the right coach can win/contend with this team as presently constructed. We need a coach that has a Plan A and Plan B incase Plan doesn't work.   We need a GM that's proactive and not simply reactive.

Remember the days of the Bad Boys Trade Jack was always looking for a trade, Will Robinson was always scouting talent and the Eye Test told a far better story about a player than a piece of paper with meaningless stats on it.  We need to stop trending and get back to reality so we need an owner that willing to say this is who we are and this the way it's going to be.   But it has to mean something......

This is a team without an identity going on 10 years now and that's sad.  Unless that identity is "Boys Bad at Goin To Work"  The first thing is SVG needs to be fired to start fixing what's wrong here.   Now I don't agree that a rebuild is impossible and that we can't move AD and Blake and stuck without an out I think we could move them.  I know that every move must be calculated even the risky bold moves because I think this team might have made the playoffs had they not traded away Harris.
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Re: FORUM

Post  cool breeze on Thu Apr 12, 2018 2:58 pm

Oracle wrote:@Ballin: The Freep and Snooze? Love your sense of humor, but unfortunately, I think they're right, SVG is more likely to come back than not.

@Wise, @Sparma, @Don: We can all agree that while Drummond puts up some great stats in some areas, he is still about 2 years behind where he should be in development. Call me crazy, but I really do believe he will be close enough next season, close enough to not give up on him now.

@Phillip: Sparma was on the Philly bandwagon early and ofter, my hats off to him, I didn't think they could be this good this fast. Yes Phillip, seeing them perform this well, with an unlimited future makes me jealous as well!

@Murph: Was that shorthand for... "We're F**ked"?  lol

3 Stooges: In the 3 Stooges, Moe would slap Larry, Larry would then slap Curly, but Curly had no one left to slap. That's our roster! We get guys, over pay them, then need to move them, but there's no takers left as stupid as we were... and we keep doing it.

Ugly Girls: If a girl has only decent looks, it's best for her to surround herself with ugly girls so that she stands out more. That's Tolliver! When Tolliver needs to boost his value, he comes here, where it's easy to look good when playing with a bunch of below average scrubs

There is a possible future: A core of Drummond, Griffin and Jackson, when healthy, can get you an 8th seed if properly coached. and higher with a better supporting cast. Sadly, our supporting cast has more questions than answers. Youngsters that haven't made a mark either because of poor coaching or lack of opportunity, to vets that are fringe players, to straight up losers(Leuer leads that crew). I still would like a major overhaul of the supporting cast.

Oracle I loved this post. It was great of you to bring up Larry, Moe, and Curly. "Curly had no one left to slap". Your take on the Tolliver experience this season is profound. I am not sold that a healthy threesome of AD, BG, and RJ can get any team to a place other than out of a good draft pick after the season is over. This is a soap opera that never moves on to a new story line. AD will not be happy unless RJ is starting with him at point guard. When AD speaks of more bonding over the summer, he means that there will be more cook outs and talk with little hard work taking place to get better. How much better can Reggie Jackson get? Nobody seems to ask that question. Everyone has been steered to the thought that we must hope Reggie can stay healthy. I don't like a healthy Reggie Jackson. When Reggie is really healthy is dominates the basketball and expends very little energy defending his assigned man. When Reggie was much younger, he played for the Thunder. Did he surprise his teammates there with his dedication to defense or passing the basketball to the open man? AD is happy as long as Reggie passes the ball to him. Reggie has guaranteed that he will take care of that request. Meanwhile, the owner is sucking his thumb hoping that AD still loves him and will call often. Sorry but I am just tired of this story line in the Pistons soap opera that seems to never change.

Many have dished out harsh criticism relating to SVG including me for the past two seasons. I want him gone because he betrayed his team last season after declaring marshall law relating to his ban on players only meetings. But now I do not believe that was his idea. That was Tom Gores idea. Everything done by SVG has been Tom Gores plan or was it AD's plan? Has the team been run by an immature giant all along while fans are cursing out the head coach who only follows orders? SVG needs the money. This will be his final job. Why not get it and keep your blinders on?

Tom Gores plan is this. The red hot line phone is in play here where one player can call the owner at any time night or day.
Tom: AD what do you want?
AD: I just finished watching a great cartoon show do you want to know what it was about?
Tom: Sure thing. ( that subject goes on for 5 minutes) then Tom breaks in and says great I will start recording that show Andre. Is there another reason why you called so late?
AD: Oh yes I Know Reggie turned the ball over a lot in this last game Tom. But I want you to keep Reggie Jackson at all cost OK? He looks for me and nobody else will pass me the ball so I can show my hook shot to the Piston fans.
Tom: Yes you are granted this wish son and is there anything else.
AD: Yes get that shooting coach off my back too.
Tom: OK son is there anything else?
AD: Can you get me a fleece lined jock strap for the cold winter nights. Our new arena is very cold.
Tom: Yes my son please call me if you have any problems with the coaching staff.
AD: Oh there is one more thing. I am worried that even though Morris is no longer on our team I am worried that the players might call for a secret players only meeting. They all know that that type of thing was banned by our coach but I don't trust any of those guys. They are throwing the ball way too much to Anthony Tolliver and the fans are looking at him more than me now. Some of the players are also mumbling quietly so I have trouble hearing them in the locker room. I think they hate that 4 out 1 in offense that features me a lot. Can you tell Coach to put a lid on any talk about a players only meeting? Some of the guys were not around last year and some of the same old troublemakers are still on our team too. I don't want anybody ripping on Reggie. And I don't want that offense changed. Other than that I am happy Tom.
Thanks for the update Andre. We sure will do everything in our power at the top to keep you happy. Is there anything else?
AD: Well I am tired of playing with Tobias Harris. He has been making too many shots and fans might think that he might be our best player this season. There are a couple of other guys I really don't like as well. And I was thinking that Blake Griffin might be really fun to play with and if you could make a trade for him, I would be really happy. I was thinking that the fans might be on me a lot if we don't make the playoffs being that I am the franchise player here. If Blake comes the fans might blame him instead of me. He gets injured a lot and the fans might also blame Coach too. By the way I don't really like Stan. He mumbles a lot about being forced to run our offense that features me and Reggie.
Tom: Sounds like a great idea. My son loves Blake too. And let me know if you hear what Coach Stan is mumbling about. If things go sour again, I will leak something to the press that i will be meeting with him after our last game. All of the fans will believe that he is the guy who is responsible for us not making the playoffs. Now son get back to that cartoon show and don't worry about anything. I have it all covered.

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"5 Takeaways from the 2017-18 NBA Season" has me wondering it this writer ever watched a Piston game

Post  cool breeze on Thu Apr 12, 2018 2:00 pm

Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder. Every fan sees things differently. But would anyone who watched this Piston team this season list the players that must be held on to to win next season that this writer offered? Leading the list was of course Jon Leuer. Somehow this person didn't watch Leuer in action in the last game of the previous season when Arron Gordon had Leuer for lunch. SVG was still promoting Leuer in the last game. He shouldn't have played in that game at all. That game should have been reserved for the rookie Henry Ellenson and hard working players on the Grand Rapids Drive. But there was Leuer getting minutes and getting his butt kicked in every way possible. But somehow Leuer who has an impossible contract to lose is a key guy next season. Who participated in this trash"? Was it the owner? I think SVG had some influence because he is the knucklehead who signed him for outrageous money. Of course one of the other key players that this team just has to keep around is Nelson aka Butter Ball. This was another brilliant move by SVG in bringing his old friend back to run the point guard position. No problems with his weight or quickness. Yes he fit right in with SVG's plans. The Pistons point guards under SVG have to be among the worst defensive players in the league to qualify for a point position job with the Pistons. Finally, this article lists - drum roll - the amazing Reggie Jackson who would have led the Pistons to the promise land if only his injury had healed quickly enough.

This article had to come directly from the propaganda department of the Pistons front office. And don't forget, if healthy with Detroit's amazing front line, this team will win a lot of games. How exciting to be going into the playoffs out of the playoffs and with no first round draft pick. All these amazing players will be back. WOW!

At least Andre Drummond did not advise the press that all this Piston team needs is "REST". That was AD's rap up at the end of last season. This time around AD said over the summer the players will do a lot of team bonding. Blake Griffin also stated that he will be working out over the summer with his teammates. If those comments are true, then that is something positive to take with us as we wait to see what Tom Gores is going to do with the front office and coaching staff. I believe that the trade involving Blake Griffin is the biggest story this season. Most experts who are not working for the Pistons believe that this was perhaps the biggest blunder any owner has made this season. While everyone seems to be on board that the coach should be fired I am not. I believe the players lost too many games because they played against better players who had a bigger attention span than our players. Our players are young with the exception of Blake Griffin who is injury prone and those old injuries usually don't go away especially when it comes to knees. Griffin for sure brings a higher basketball IQ to the team. As a team it appeared to me that this group had a lower basketball IQ than most of the other teams including the teams that are in the same boat as Detroit meaning out of the playoffs.

I sure hope the Pistons get lucky with their 2nd round pick. Will they select a point guard? Of course not if SVG and company are around. Can't have too much competition for playing time. That only creates bad team chemistry. And I remember one comment by AD in his interview. He loves Reggie Jackson. Reggie gets' AD the ball. AD wants the ball. AD wants to be an offensive star. He wants those stats to go up even higher. Meanwhile, Blake Griffin commented that he was surprised at how good AD's hands were on the defensive end. That was really true. AD has great hands and at times showed how good they were this season with the amount of deflections he got. If only Andre Drummond would decide that he wants to be the best defensive big man in the NBA then the Pistons might win some meaningful games next season. Of course they need a real point guard who can defend too. I don't trust Reggie Jackson will ever be a true two way above average point guard in the NBA for an entire season. It is clear that the Pistons will roll the dice with him again next season. Looking at all of the Eastern Conference teams that made the playoffs, unless there are some big changes in those teams, I do not think the Pistons can secure a better record than any of them. But next season could be different depending on how hard the players work over the summer. We have to hope that they will do that because even if there is a change in the coaching staff, the odds are that the Detroit Pistons will do well again up to around Christmas time and then fall flat on their asses again through the months of January and February and into mid March.

I might be the only fan who is pulling for Eric Moreland to make the team again next fall and come back with 20 pounds of muscle. Eric didn't make the list of "must keep" players by Fansided in the article opposite our posts. If that person can include Butter Ball and Jon Leuer in the list of "Must keep" then I should have a right to include Moreland on my list. That guy busts his butt all of the time when he plays basketball. He challenges every shot that goes up in the paint when he plays there. Watch the game film of Ben Wallace's glory days with the Pistons Eric. I am pulling for you to turn heads and gain more Piston fans next season. Being that the Pistons will come back with Smith and Jackson as the point guards, I hope if one of them goes down, Luke Kennard will get a chance to show his ability to run the team and play that position the way it should be played. The know the NBA is pure entertainment and not true basketball. The fans want to see those quick long range shots do down and of course a lot of clever dribbling by small point guards. Still I have to hope that when the loses pile up again, the owner will be forced to try something different. It really appears that Tom Gores has made most if not all of the real decisions that have been made while SVG has been with the Pistons. Will he finally decide to take a back seat and admit he knows very little about running a basketball operation? It had to be Tom Gores who helped write that Fansided article. That means that the 22 old Stanley Johnson will be traded over the summer. I am sure he wouldn't mind that but looking at his contract one would have to be an idiot to do that. We lose our best defender on the entire team. He is the player that the coach matches up with the best offensive weapon of all opposing teams unless that player is a center or bigger power forward. Injuries and poor outside shooting have plagued Johnson. Meanwhile injuries and horrible defensive effort have plagued Reggie Jackson too. Who is the real Stanley Johnson? That remains to be seen but logic and reason tells me he could still become an elite NBA offensive player to go with his already outstanding ability to defend his position and other positions while being an excellent help defender and passer. Nothing matters but shooting the ball from distance though so he must be traded to provide better entertainment which is all that the NBA is about. To me the NBA has become boring and predictable where almost every team plays the same way. I did notice that although Chicago got beat up badly by the Pistons that they often were able to run their 4th option on offense. Meanwhile, our players always settled on the first option. There I go again about basketball IQ and how primitive our players seem to play under this system. There is no escaping the depressing feelings some of us have when thinking about the future of the Detroit Pistons. It is a good thing that the season is finally over for the players.

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100%

Post  WTF on Thu Apr 12, 2018 5:18 am

First I take no real pleasure in being correct about the 39 win season and that deep down I wanted to be wrong.   But I had always made it clear as to why I predicted 39 wins and I'll say it again COACHING!!!.

Like many of you I could look at the roster and think maybe this team can win 50 plus games but then I turn and look at the very thing we've been debating or discussing recently as to rather SVG gets 100% blame and he really does.   In a perfect world in would be reasonable to think that a player tweak here or there made a difference, or a bad call here or there made a difference in a win or loss.  

Coaching has been consistently bad since preseason in fact it the only thing that's been consistent as far as this team goes.  Everything about this team is by SVG design Period!!!! It's been a flawed design since he arrived here in his dual role.   I would be willing to place some blame on the players but you can't do it largely because SVG never coached to their talents.

How do you as a coach go an entire preseason and regular season trying to figure out your roster? why would a coach for 4 whole seasons force a system on group of players not equipped for it instead of applying a system suited to talent?  Sparma these 2 questions are indication it's all on SVG alone it not like if we were making an argument like Flip only going 9 deep in his roster, or Rick not wanting to play Prince over Curry or LB use of Memo.  We're not arguing decision making when it comes to SVG we're arguing and debating stupidity of a coach when we talk about SVG.   

I picked 39 wins because I knew this coach would **** it up 100% and he did.   

I'm not to down about the roster going forward again the right coach could be the difference, but if they keep SVG it'll be another long season next year.   facepalm
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Read'um and weap...

Post  Oracle on Wed Apr 11, 2018 11:52 pm

Wise WINS!!!  dance dance dance dance

 
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A few things as the end nears

Post  Sparma on Wed Apr 11, 2018 8:19 pm

Wise, congratulations on being the closest in your prediction. And I was the farthest away. If you hit it on the nail after tonight with your 39, that'd be pretty impressive.

Wise writes: "I'm sorry again this is 100% on SVG because he's in charge...." I've argued against it being 100% Stan, certainly as coach, but maybe he really is. In any case, I hope we can agree that there's an invalid logical deduction to be avoided. If y wouldn't have occurred without x as [ultimate] cause, it doesn't necessarily follow that x is the [proximate] cause of y. There's an equivocation (between ultimate and proximate) that gives the appearance of validity. X could be both the ultimate and proximate cause of y, but that case needs to be made and not assumed. For example, the Pistons wouldn't be in the state they are without the Big Bang as [ultimate] cause, but the Big Bang isn't the [proximate] cause of the state the Pistons are in. Maybe in the case of Stan, he's both the ultimate and proximate cause, but there's some serious filling in to do to show that's the case.

Oracle and I certainly agree that Stan's failed. And I'm struck by the lawn mowing analogy. I'd choose a different analogy though, which I believe to be closer to Piston reality. Let's say "Stan" is hired as CEO and manager (but not as owner, chef, sous chef, etc.) to turn a restaurant into a Michelin star level place. Four years in, that doesn't happen. For me, it's fair to say that Stan's failed. Might it also be 100% on Stan? Maybe, but that would take a whole lot of filling in to establish.

And of course Stan's going to plead for one more year with the owner, given how well the restaurant did in the 4th year when a key chef wasn't on family leave.

Thanks for your remark about me being quick on the Philly train, Oracle. I'm guessing the tanking train's too far down the track now for us to hop on board.

Astute depiction of our lot and options by Murph. I like the Stackhouse possibility, but you may be right about the need for a vet. Also, I think Stack would be better off elsewhere, like with the Knicks or Bucks, as has been rumored.

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There Need To Be An Up-Rise A Freaking Revolt

Post  WTF on Wed Apr 11, 2018 12:42 pm

I think I've been down this road before but I'll take one more trip just to remind everyone what it use to be like and how far we've had falling away from that thing we once proudly cherished.  DNA! DNA! DNA!  PISTONS DNA!!!!

We all know better, we now what it takes and where it comes from and this organization doesn't have it anymore.  We know what All Stars look like, we know what coaching looks like, we know what effort looks like.  We have suffered the agony of defeat and found joy in the thrill of victory we've been to the mountain too many times to know that this team doesn't have what we know in our hearts win championship.

Cherish AD as you wish but you know deep in your hearts beyond his stats he is not on the level of Big Ben and Bill and you all know it. Or at least that is what I've been trying to tell everyone.  Lets stop kidding ourselves because we all know what is missing from AD game which is why he's wildly inconsistent game to game.  

We know what great coaching looks like, we know what a great PG looks like,  we know what a winning team looks like and we didn't need no dumb ass stats and advance statistical bullshit to tell us differently.  I don't give as **** what AD stats are he's not nor will he ever be on the level of not just Ben and Bill but others at his position that carried that Pistons DNA.    He don't have it and likely never will.

I don't understand why we accept anything with team, we have bashed far better coaches than SVG, we have bashed far better players than AD, RJ, and others on this team.  We have bashed far better drafted picks than SJ yet we have lowered the bar so low in what we expect, we play this wait and see game season after season SMH.  

I'm sorry again this is 100% on SVG because he's in charge, in a way no other coach we had could have imagine,  SVG had to go to himself to make a trade, sign a free agent, draft a player.  LB had to go Joe, Chuck hade to go to Trader Jack, SVG has to go to SVG.  Players are what they are and it's up to a coach to play them or not, it's up to the pres to trade them or not.  

Gore is a stupid owner if he keeps him beyond this season.  I'm sure firing SVG isn't the first million dollar bad investment or loss he's suffered so get over having to pay SVG 7 Million not to coach.  Joe paid 3 coaches not to coach (Rick, LB and Flip) imagine that we've fired far better coaches than SVG sorry ass.
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3 Stooges, ugly girls and the Pistons... Oh My!

Post  Oracle on Wed Apr 11, 2018 11:54 am

@Ballin: The Freep and Snooze? Love your sense of humor, but unfortunately, I think they're right, SVG is more likely to come back than not.

@Wise, @Sparma, @Don: We can all agree that while Drummond puts up some great stats in some areas, he is still about 2 years behind where he should be in development. Call me crazy, but I really do believe he will be close enough next season, close enough to not give up on him now.

@Phillip: Sparma was on the Philly bandwagon early and ofter, my hats off to him, I didn't think they could be this good this fast. Yes Phillip, seeing them perform this well, with an unlimited future makes me jealous as well!

@Murph: Was that shorthand for... "We're F**ked"?  lol

3 Stooges: In the 3 Stooges, Moe would slap Larry, Larry would then slap Curly, but Curly had no one left to slap. That's our roster! We get guys, over pay them, then need to move them, but there's no takers left as stupid as we were... and we keep doing it.

Ugly Girls: If a girl has only decent looks, it's best for her to surround herself with ugly girls so that she stands out more. That's Tolliver! When Tolliver needs to boost his value, he comes here, where it's easy to look good when playing with a bunch of below average scrubs

There is a possible future: A core of Drummond, Griffin and Jackson, when healthy, can get you an 8th seed if properly coached. and higher with a better supporting cast. Sadly, our supporting cast has more questions than answers. Youngsters that haven't made a mark either because of poor coaching or lack of opportunity, to vets that are fringe players, to straight up losers(Leuer leads that crew). I still would like a major overhaul of the supporting cast.
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Not Much We Can Do In the Off Season

Post  Murph on Wed Apr 11, 2018 9:00 am

We have pretty much run out of cap space and are locked into most of our bad contracts. With that in mind, there isn't a lot the Pistons can do in the off season.

Trade Reggie Jackson for a better starting PG if you can, but really, who's going to take an often injured PG making $17 million a year?

Acquire the best veteran PG available, through free agency. Kemba will be on the block this off season, but to get him would require we give up another 1st round pick, and many of our young players to get him. I can't see doubling down like that at this point.

Fire SVG, and hire a veteran experienced coach, with a proven track record, such as Jason Kidd. Kidd has the added advantage of thoroughly understanding the PG position.

Do not hire an inexperienced, rookie coach such as Stackhouse (who I loved as a player), or Monty Williams. This is a veteran team and needs a tough, veteran coach.

Then next year, keep Reggie Jackson's and Blake Griffin's minutes down to a bare minimum (24 mpg for RJ, and 28 mpg for Griffin), in an effort to keep both healthy for the playoffs.

Draft an older (junior or senior) experience PG, such as Brunson, Graham or Carter, should we be lucky enough to get them in the 2nd round.

Until these bad contracts expired, that's about all we can do.
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I'm Jelous and I need to admit it

Post  Phil1980boy on Wed Apr 11, 2018 1:57 am

I'm JELOUS OF THE PHILADELPHIL 76ERS!!


Several years ago the 76ERS had Andre Igodulia, Iverson, Holiday, and Mo Cheeks. The 76ERS were headed no where. They might have made the playoffs but only first round, early exits were in their future.

Look at Phily today. 15 wins in A row. The Joke of the league is now the future of the NBA. The 76ERS have Joel, Fultz, A 2019 First round lottery pick, A s.h.i.t load of young talent, the 22nd lowest salary in the entire NBA, A chance to sign Lebron James and Ben Simmons. The new grant hill!!

And here I am stuck with Tom Gores. A loser!

Van Gundy. A guy who does not believe Detroit can win.

Reggie Jackson. TRASH!

Blake Griffith: Over the hill

2019 first round pick: GONE!

Future: lol lol lol lol



THE DETROIT PISTONS SUCK!! thumbs down thumbs down thumbs down thumbs down thumbs down thumbs down thumbs down
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While most of you seem depressed believing that SVG will actually coach the Pistons, I am depressed that Reggie Jackson and Andre Drummond will be back as well

Post  cool breeze on Tue Apr 10, 2018 7:36 pm

The time has come to cut out the excuses. I loved Oracle's comparison to the guy who was hired to mow the lawn instead of doing the job he was hired to do.

I think Reggie Jackson is a hot dog player no team can ever count on for an entire season. He is a chemistry killer because of his lack of work ethic on defense and his habit of being a ball hog. The only reason he is still a Piston is because no other team would gamble on him because of his current contract. The Pistons are a developing team not a team Reggie should be playing on. Who wants him back between Tom Gores and SVG? Do both of them really want him back and choose to keep him and not explore ways to rid the team of his presence? I think they need to have an excuse for their team being a big loser again. Reggie was injured. With him the Pistons would be great! That will be the story line throughout the summer months. Maybe SVG will leak a story that Reggie has climbed Mt. Everest to improve his conditioning so he has the stamina to move his legs on defense next time around. Then some suckers will buy season tickets and Mr. Gores will tell SVG good job. Good thing I kept you as our coach.

Another tiring story line is Andre Drummond's development. He did fake it for 4 months last season and then said after the last game that all his team needs is some rest. Andre promptly accomplished that goal. He never put in any work with someone who knows how to play defense in the paint. But what is new about AD's attitude towards playing the right way in that area? AD was more engaged this season. But he is a dumb player. If any of you cannot see that then you have not really watched him play defense for an entire game. AD just does not have the mindset of a winning type basketball player. All though his life his coaches have had to take the blame for his mental mistakes. SVG is not alone. Please understand that every other coach he has had has not been able to get AD on board to provide the paint protection any of this team's have needed to win. It would be comical to watch him go blank when balls head for the rim when he is on defense. Every coach in the league knows that AD cannot think quickly enough to box out board crashers. AD hopes the ball comes his way. How many games has the Pistons lost because AD did not box out his man on the final defensive possession of Piston games? Is there a stat on that? AD's agent sure hopes nobody is paying attention to AD's inability to learn the fundamentals or is it lack of desire to become a good defender? I don't care anymore. I am just tired of the same old stuff. Any sane GM or owner should have had enough. AD is just not a serious basketball player. He is a nice guy and fun guy off the court. What I am looking for is a center with the mind of the professional golfers who were in the run for the win at the Masters. They have no guaranteed contracts. They play on skill and guts just like the professional tennis players. Nobody holds their hand or makes excuses for them. Nobody ever blames their coach when they miss the cut and don't get to play on the final day of the tournament. We have watched Piston players in the past who have the correct mind set that allows them to win a lot of basketball games. AD could never be a successful professional golf of tennis player because of his mind. However, in Piston land the fans, coaches and the owner will continue to make excuses for Andre Drummond. It will always be the coach or maybe the ball boy or the cheer leaders. In my opinion, the only positive thing this owner can do now is trade Andre Drummond over the summer. AD is the only player on this team that could bring the Pistons a young developing star caliber player through the draft. If Detroit could get a bunch of draft picks, a workable average NBA center and some junk players and remove AD's salary, the Pistons would be moving in the right direction.

My disappointment with Stan Van Gundy is not that he is guilty of employed the wrong offense that doesn't fit the players. If you are the head coach of the Pistons you have to walk on pins and needles or get in big trouble with the owner. AD has has the hot line phone in his possession all of the time. Dare to hire a shooting coach if you are the head coach? Just try it I dare you. We see where that got SVG when he did that. AD quickly called Tom Gores and that was it. The shooting coach could not get within 30 yards of AD after that call was made. AD can do whatever he wants to do in practice. He can listen or not listen. And AD knows it. SVG said after last season that he wanted AD to come back more "engaged" on defense. Remember that anyone? Was SVG ever allowed to force AD into working with an expert big man coach in the off season to improve AD on his decision making or just fundamentals on defense? NO! The Answer is NO. So this is my big disappointment with SVG. He has no balls. SVG is a politician must like those who work in Washington DC. He puts his finger up to check which way the wind is blowing. If RJ and AD hate that motion offense then OK we will run the pick and roll dummy offense. If RJ and AD take possessions off on defense SVG turns a blind eye and bitches out the low contract players for their mental mistakes. The low contract players don't fake it. They want to improve but are just young players learning the game. But they also see how the big contract players are treated by this head coach. In my mind, SVG will always be a Benedict Arnold after he put an end to the players only meetings after RJ and AD got ruffed up verbally in that one meeting. That hot line to the owner was working that day when AD not only went to the press but told Tom Gores to give SVG his marching orders.

I just can't imagine any true Piston fan bothering to watch AD and RJ again next season. Watching them play for an opposing team would be fun. But unless you need a whip to get off when you have sex, then any healthy Piston fan should spend their time at a high school gym pulling for local kids to have a great season. Maybe I just hate the current NBA game itself. The current NBA game was designed for idiots or lazy players. It takes hard work to run a real half court offense. Remember Richard Hamilton running his butt off on every Piston possession? Remember how hard our big men worked to free him for the mid range shot. The NBA game is designed for players like Charlie V. Just stand at a spot and shoot it from long range. What if the NBA changed the shot clock to 60 seconds? What if the NBA took away the 3 point shot? What if the NBA teams could use a zone defense? All teams now look alike. The players with the best long range shooters win. Back to back games and long road trips with too many game in too short of a period screws the fans who play for the tickets. The owners don't care. Why should fans remain fans of NBA basketball. I really do not know many people who like this game or watch even the playoffs.

The NBA is very dependent on rigging things to get publicity. They create star players. The officials ignore fouls by the selected players on the selected teams created by the NBA Front office. Before every trade deadline somehow the star player's team gets all of the best deals in the trades. The selected teams manage to hold on to their draft picks while owners like this Pistons owner gladly give them away maybe because of some back room deal or perhaps they are told to sacrifice for the health of the NBA. The Pistons get Blake Griffin instead of George Hill because Labron wants Hill and the Clippers want to rid themselves of a foolish contract. OK I will sacrifice says Tom Gores. Tom makes that deal even when his management team are screaming don't do it.

I can't imagine how the NBA can keep television viewers interested? Everything is set up for Labron to somehow win the championship. That will create big interest for next season. Can anyone beat Labron's team? Then comes where will he play next season? What suspense and what else can the sports writers talk about? Meanwhile, the Pistons will lose thousands of potential fans and the arena will remain empty. Then maybe the owner will move the team. Just about that time AD, RJ and BG will be on other teams the new Piston city will get to watch a first round pick point guard suddenly create a winner. The San Diego Pistons will of course throw a bone to old Piston fans and keep a G league team in Detroit. they will move the GR Drive to Detroit where the arena will remain empty. That is what I have been viewing in my crystal ball today but it is a bit cloudy so maybe I am not seeing the future properly.

SVG, RJ, and AD must go. Nothing can be done about BG unless Griffin decides he would rather retire than play for the Pistons. Did Tom Gores ask his son if he wanted BG to play for the Pistons before he made that trade? It could be as simple as that as to how decisions are made with the Pistons.


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Are you in charge of the hoes?

Post  Oracle on Tue Apr 10, 2018 5:13 am

Wise cuts to the quick!

Sparma, you make some valid points, which are true, but IMO, it don't matter much anymore.

Stan was hired to do ONE thing... build a winning team!

He wasn't hired to improve Drummond's game, develop rookies, draft great, or bring in the best FA's. If he did any of these things, fine, but he was hired to do whatever was required to win... he did that one year, and then proceeded to screw that team up.

If you hired a person to cut your grass, but all he did was clean off your porch, take out your trash and walk your dog, it's not like you didn't need the other stuff, but you hired him to cut your grass, and he didn't... that's Stan.
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More Stan

Post  Sparma on Mon Apr 09, 2018 6:17 pm

Dre's still underachieving, we can agree to that, but I wonder if we can agree to something else. Even if Dre was a bum last year, can we agree that he's improved notably (and in several respects)? That's where the question of credit comes in. I'm inclined to give SVG [hard to believe I'm his defender given that I hope he gets fired!] some credit for this year's Dre over against last year's. What if he deserves no credit though? Wouldn't that suggest that players (as I think) share massively in their fate, and in how the team does, well or badly? But acknowledging as much would cut against the 100% coaching argument.

WTF writes: "Not a single ounce of credit goes to SVG on the few wins this team has, whatever small a success was clearly by circumstance and accident. SVG has always had the team in a position to lose games period."

Wow!!

I'll give an example of how I think things get more complicated. Just watched a condensed version v Memphis (what a sad affair!), but I did catch most of the game v Dallas. I'd say that Reggie and the pick 'n roll with Andre for Detroit pulling out the win there (and Kelser was emphasizing that too). SVG has a ton to do with trading for Reggie with the pick 'n roll with Andre in mind, then signing him to a big contract, etc. So I'm giving Stan a fair bit of credit for the team pulling out a win based heavily on his design. Now, I happen not to be a fan of the Reggie-heavy, or the pick n' roll, style. But it worked v Dallas. So I'm giving him partial credit for that win, even though I'm a critic of the design that was part of the cause of that (ugly) win. From game to game, I think he earns both credit and blame. If the argument's that he's steered the team in the wrong direction on the whole, I'm in agreement. Still not to the point of saying that it's 100% Stan's fault as coach, or even as exec & coach (the necessary condition argument does become tricky).

For instance, I think Reggie J has a default way of playing: slow up the court, lots of dribbling, decisions late in the clock, low energy on D, all things I dislike. Versus Dallas, his style worked out. He CAN play differently, as in the game of the injury when he had 13 assists. I blame SVG as coach, in part, for not bringing out the optimal Reggie J (I think he could have brought him off the bench more, for instance). But I'm not going to say SVG as coach's 100% responsible for the problem, when (for me) a lot of the team's problem turns on Reggie J's default way of playing. Causality becomes, as so often, really difficult to assign with precision. Especially when counterfactuals, what could have been (eg the team could have been x much better than actual performance, if only...), are brought into the picture as they need to be to address the causal impact of the coach with any hope of precision.

btw, I see that Reggie B just praised SVG enthusiastically. So there's that.

In all, a lot of these guys seem like decent, hard working, folks (including SVG), but I'm finding it difficult to really cheer for this team.

We did get in a fun March Madness.





WTF wrote:
Sparma wrote:For instance, I think SVG's has handled Reggie J, Kennard, and Boban badly (but probably deserves some credit for the seasons of Andre and Reggie B). How to sort out coaching causality?

Sorry but AD is grossly underachieving I know you like AD gaudy stats but they are a bit overstated and still wildly inconsistent and yes SVG does get the credit for that as well along with the mishandling of RJ, Kennard, Boban and you can add SJ to the list.  

There's too much overthinking here concerning SVG level of fault when it's clearly his alone.  Not a single ounce of credit goes to SVG on the few wins this team has, whatever small a success was clearly by circumstance and accident.  SVG has always had the team in a position to lose games period.  

This remind me of the scene in Harlem Nights when Quick ask Vera about coming up short "Are you in charge of the hoes?" Yeah Quick I'm in charge of the hoes.  SVG is in charge of the team and like Vera being in charge of the hoes they keep coming up short.
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Ayo Piston Fans

Post  BallinD on Mon Apr 09, 2018 2:33 am

The lead Freep and Snooze writers are on their knees singing that SVG will be back for another year of misery, Piston Fans, and that the team is showing it's moxie and being prideful.  We lost to the most tankalicious teams in the Association, all the while trying desperately to win out against teams trying to lose out.  We lost against G-Leaguers and Marc Gasol.  Really folks!!
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SVG Is In Charge Right!

Post  WTF on Sun Apr 08, 2018 11:06 am

Sparma wrote:For instance, I think SVG's has handled Reggie J, Kennard, and Boban badly (but probably deserves some credit for the seasons of Andre and Reggie B). How to sort out coaching causality?

Sorry but AD is grossly underachieving I know you like AD gaudy stats but they are a bit overstated and still wildly inconsistent and yes SVG does get the credit for that as well along with the mishandling of RJ, Kennard, Boban and you can add SJ to the list.  

There's too much overthinking here concerning SVG level of fault when it's clearly his alone.  Not a single ounce of credit goes to SVG on the few wins this team has, whatever small a success was clearly by circumstance and accident.  SVG has always had the team in a position to lose games period.  

This remind me of the scene in Harlem Nights when Quick ask Vera about coming up short "Are you in charge of the hoes?" Yeah Quick I'm in charge of the hoes.  SVG is in charge of the team and like Vera being in charge of the hoes they keep coming up short.
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