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50 wins? Not even if the table is ran!

Post  deusXango on Wed Mar 21, 2018 3:33 am

Who is the LEADER of this team going to be going forward? Blake Griffin? Andre Drummond? Reggie Jackson? Alfred E. Newman? He's got to be one helluva leader with the orchestrated, unnecessary, state of hopelessness Stupid-Ass Van Gundy has created. Long after he's gone, Griffin, Drummond, Jackson, and the ghost of Josh Smith will suck the spirit out of Pistons fans. This is the legacy Van Gundy will be leaving behind. Thanks Mr. Gores.
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Could He Save Us?

Post  BallinD on Tue Mar 20, 2018 10:19 pm

Chchchchchauncey  BBBBBillups for GM or something??

PppppPlAYOFFS Boys n Girls Weggie is Back!

Choose Baby; Weggie or Chauncey

They say where there is smoke, there is fire, and what with Weggie Starting, we have 13 more games and then we shall see what we shall see at the end of the season?  Is Gores really gonna address SVG and avoid the snooze button this time on the alarm and gonna make a basketball personnell decision we can live with?



Or, should we bank on Weggie?  I can't believe SVG think's it's Groundhog's Day (Stupid Van Gundy) and is gonna reprise the debacle of last year and no GLeague either, and no letting him come off the bench.  One game of 4-on-4 and SVG shoves him back in the starting lineup!?!?
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Self-sabotaging Stan?

Post  Sparma on Tue Mar 20, 2018 9:08 pm

Thanks for a fun exchange, guys, as the games diminish into irrelevance.

You really demonstrated why it's not so simple as Stan not getting buy in, BallinD. In rethinking, I think I'm left both in agreement and disagreement with you. Not sure.

I maintain that in some general, abstract, way Stan wants individuals to sacrifice what's best for them (at least their stats) for the well-being of the team. Maybe his prodding of SJ to being a hustling defensive player, rather than the go to guy he grew up being, is a case in point. Still, I can see more clearly that he's self-sabotaging [I already was convinced he needs to go.]

On defense, I'm sure he wants the team to buy into a team first mentality. For instance, he wants Reggie J to get back on D, rather than just saving his limited supply of energy for O. Still, there may be something about his mindset that gets in the way. We all seem to agree that he's more driven by a fear of failure than a hope of succeeding. This is wildly speculative (and hence could be quite wrong): what if it was Bradley who spearheaded the swarming, backing, D that we saw the first 20 games, but Stan became uncomfortable with the mistakes that come with an aggressive, risk taking, D? Could he have simplified the instructions, cutting back on mistakes, but also cutting into the early high self motivated players?

On O, your case that Stan's a big problem seems pretty straightforward, BallinD. Good memory on the thing about such an O being less sustainable [manifesting fear of failure]. I'm not sure what all caused the collapse [remember that Reggie J had a great last game with 13 assists, but that the decline had already started with him at the helm.] One thing I remember is the overpriced Galloway looking like he might be worth it after all with his devastating cuts into creases in middle distance combined with dynamite shooting; Harris did something similar, often on the other side of the course. Recently, Griffin's been quite an offensive credit, with at least one writer giving credit to SVG. Still, the offense looks really static. It looks like SVG wants to pile on opportunities for his best options (now Blake and Reggie B), while being uncomfortable giving opportunities to the erratic guys like Stanley J, Kennard, and Galloway. Makes sense, but not really, because going with your best options again and again makes the O more predictable and easier to stop by good teams. Doing the risky thing, many elements of which you describe BallinD, doesn't come naturally to SVG. Ironically, then, individuals (like Blake and Reggie B) come to be featured [incidentally my guess is that Reggie B will recede some when Reggie J reemerges] even though SVG, abstractly, is committed to a team oriented O. He's temperamentally unable to live up to his own ideals.

cool breeze wrote:
BallinD wrote:@Sparma: There may be even more going on than what is possible, but what is also comfortable.  Consider: SVG is a P&R guy who had to be dragged kicking and screaming toward a motion offense, with secondary ball handlers and secondary passers.  He talked about motion being harder to sustain at the beginning of the season, compared to pick and roll, his baby.  He warned us, perhaps because of the personnell and also warned about his own tendencies.  With Luke and Blake, and Bullock and even Dre, we have cutters, passers, shooters, post up, offensive rebounding.  Luke and Blake pose the best passing, and SJ is no slouch off the bench.  RJax can be a willing passer, but it is not his nature, but he is capable.

The culture here of an unselfish team has never been created nor supported by MGT/Leadership.

So back to Stan.  It is not really a surprise, considering how we got Blake before the ASB, that he went straight ISO with Blake for so many games, probably fueled by the false confidence spawned by the "catching teams on the second game of a B2B winning streak."  Now with Weggie coming back to an empty arena and a floundering team, why shouldn't we go back to the comfort zone of Weggie P&R, hero ball and let's go get a couple of more wins, even though we have no shot at the playoffs and we could sure use the opportunity to keep that 1-4 protected pick.  

It could be different, but SVG is not the man to make it so.


SPARMA: The reasons for us not playing such a team oriented way, that would include second passes and swarming defense, are many. Lack of basketball IQ? Sure, but I think we did show what we could do in the first 20 games. The coach? Yes, he's not getting the buy in needed, and seems behind the times tactically. PG troubles? Yes, but again I don't think that's the whole story. Along with those factors, success itself plays a role. Here's a genuine case of success breeding success, leading to buy in. But then, we were successful for 20 games, so success then and failure now don't seem to be the whole explanation.

What the Spurs got going, what the Dutch had decades ago with their Total Football, is a complex system, dependent on numerous elements. Sadly, we fall short of several counts, so that I think we're well removed from sustained success, even though we've got some good players. But then again, the beginning of the season showed what was possible.

WoW! Both Sparma and Ballin provide more interest for sure than watching the actual Piston games. Ballin you have identified the whole picture of how SVG and his staff settle for the damn pick and roll brain dead offense. The pick and roll make sure you execute the first option and shoot it offense that has put most Piston fans asleep early in most games is geared for low basketball IQ players. So does SVG believe his players are not capable of playing a style that Sparma articulated so well in his post? regardless of the score, i am ready to scream out of boredom before the first quarter is over now because of the lack of brain power being used by our players. SVG provides the leadership and is responsible for the result during most possessions where usually only two players actually touch the basketball. Greg Kelser actually has to point out moments where the Pistons actually did make more than one pass. Maybe we should get excited when we see a player set something other than the high screen. Usually AD sets the high screen but is too late setting it or sets it on the wrong side. No young player can develop or flourish in a system that we have witnessed since SVG arrived. Ballin has it down as to how SVG thinks. He cannot wait for Reggie Jackson to come back to end any chance of a motion offense or any other type of offense to be run other than the din witted SVG pock and roll Jr High offense. Soon we will see even fewer passes. We will never see the day when we have a team that has a system like the Spurs as long as SVG is in charge.

Watching AD against the Kings in the first half made me almost laugh. AD is determined to be an offensive juggernaut. He tried a turn around jump shot that missed the rim. Several hook shots were forced contested shots that had no chance of going in. I can forgive all of this nonsense being that the Pistons are out of contention for the playoffs. But what grinds me is AD's attitude on defense. If anyone has the game recorded on their DVR go to the 3:26 minute mark of the 2nd quarter. The rookie point guard Fox for the Kings drove into the center of the lane. AD was not guarding his man who was out on the right wing setting a screen for Fox. If you get a chance take a look at AD's footwork. If he did what he did for any college team his ass would be quickly moved to the bench where he would stay for the remainder of the game. In the 2 seconds it took for Fox to get within 3 feet of the basket, AD took two slow steps while watching Fox approach. There was clearly no attempt by Drummond to provide any resistance against this small guard who made a jump shot over AD. AD never brought one arm above his waist to contest the shot. That was not a winning type of moment for our expensive starting center who keeps getting all those records and stats that should make him great trading material. We will never win anything with this center. His mind is not conditioned to making the special plays all great players can make to help their team become great. No team can win when their starting center offers little to no resistence in a one on one situation inside the painted area. This was the AD I saw a lot of when he played at UCONN. AD does block some shots but he is never consistently a feared defender of the paint. He is a part time defender and nobody can guess when he will even box out when a game is on the line in the closing seconds. Maybe some of you enjoy watching AD dunk the ball or get the meaningless rebounds. I want a top tier point guard and 2 guard to start the process of rebuilding. We need to trade AD to start that process. But as others have pointed out, SVG is just waiting for Reggie Jackson to right the ship with that pick and roll play featuring AD's offense. If AD is not open on the roll Reggie can either shoot it or pass it back to Blake to shoot the 3 ball. Will we actually have to watch that next season?
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Re: FORUM

Post  cool breeze on Tue Mar 20, 2018 8:00 pm

BallinD wrote:@Sparma: There may be even more going on than what is possible, but what is also comfortable.  Consider: SVG is a P&R guy who had to be dragged kicking and screaming toward a motion offense, with secondary ball handlers and secondary passers.  He talked about motion being harder to sustain at the beginning of the season, compared to pick and roll, his baby.  He warned us, perhaps because of the personnell and also warned about his own tendencies.  With Luke and Blake, and Bullock and even Dre, we have cutters, passers, shooters, post up, offensive rebounding.  Luke and Blake pose the best passing, and SJ is no slouch off the bench.  RJax can be a willing passer, but it is not his nature, but he is capable.

The culture here of an unselfish team has never been created nor supported by MGT/Leadership.

So back to Stan.  It is not really a surprise, considering how we got Blake before the ASB, that he went straight ISO with Blake for so many games, probably fueled by the false confidence spawned by the "catching teams on the second game of a B2B winning streak."  Now with Weggie coming back to an empty arena and a floundering team, why shouldn't we go back to the comfort zone of Weggie P&R, hero ball and let's go get a couple of more wins, even though we have no shot at the playoffs and we could sure use the opportunity to keep that 1-4 protected pick.  

It could be different, but SVG is not the man to make it so.


SPARMA: The reasons for us not playing such a team oriented way, that would include second passes and swarming defense, are many. Lack of basketball IQ? Sure, but I think we did show what we could do in the first 20 games. The coach? Yes, he's not getting the buy in needed, and seems behind the times tactically. PG troubles? Yes, but again I don't think that's the whole story. Along with those factors, success itself plays a role. Here's a genuine case of success breeding success, leading to buy in. But then, we were successful for 20 games, so success then and failure now don't seem to be the whole explanation.

What the Spurs got going, what the Dutch had decades ago with their Total Football, is a complex system, dependent on numerous elements. Sadly, we fall short of several counts, so that I think we're well removed from sustained success, even though we've got some good players. But then again, the beginning of the season showed what was possible.

WoW! Both Sparma and Ballin provide more interest for sure than watching the actual Piston games. Ballin you have identified the whole picture of how SVG and his staff settle for the damn pick and roll brain dead offense. The pick and roll make sure you execute the first option and shoot it offense that has put most Piston fans asleep early in most games is geared for low basketball IQ players. So does SVG believe his players are not capable of playing a style that Sparma articulated so well in his post? regardless of the score, i am ready to scream out of boredom before the first quarter is over now because of the lack of brain power being used by our players. SVG provides the leadership and is responsible for the result during most possessions where usually only two players actually touch the basketball. Greg Kelser actually has to point out moments where the Pistons actually did make more than one pass. Maybe we should get excited when we see a player set something other than the high screen. Usually AD sets the high screen but is too late setting it or sets it on the wrong side. No young player can develop or flourish in a system that we have witnessed since SVG arrived. Ballin has it down as to how SVG thinks. He cannot wait for Reggie Jackson to come back to end any chance of a motion offense or any other type of offense to be run other than the din witted SVG pock and roll Jr High offense. Soon we will see even fewer passes. We will never see the day when we have a team that has a system like the Spurs as long as SVG is in charge.

Watching AD against the Kings in the first half made me almost laugh. AD is determined to be an offensive juggernaut. He tried a turn around jump shot that missed the rim. Several hook shots were forced contested shots that had no chance of going in. I can forgive all of this nonsense being that the Pistons are out of contention for the playoffs. But what grinds me is AD's attitude on defense. If anyone has the game recorded on their DVR go to the 3:26 minute mark of the 2nd quarter. The rookie point guard Fox for the Kings drove into the center of the lane. AD was not guarding his man who was out on the right wing setting a screen for Fox. If you get a chance take a look at AD's footwork. If he did what he did for any college team his ass would be quickly moved to the bench where he would stay for the remainder of the game. In the 2 seconds it took for Fox to get within 3 feet of the basket, AD took two slow steps while watching Fox approach. There was clearly no attempt by Drummond to provide any resistance against this small guard who made a jump shot over AD. AD never brought one arm above his waist to contest the shot. That was not a winning type of moment for our expensive starting center who keeps getting all those records and stats that should make him great trading material. We will never win anything with this center. His mind is not conditioned to making the special plays all great players can make to help their team become great. No team can win when their starting center offers little to no resistence in a one on one situation inside the painted area. This was the AD I saw a lot of when he played at UCONN. AD does block some shots but he is never consistently a feared defender of the paint. He is a part time defender and nobody can guess when he will even box out when a game is on the line in the closing seconds. Maybe some of you enjoy watching AD dunk the ball or get the meaningless rebounds. I want a top tier point guard and 2 guard to start the process of rebuilding. We need to trade AD to start that process. But as others have pointed out, SVG is just waiting for Reggie Jackson to right the ship with that pick and roll play featuring AD's offense. If AD is not open on the roll Reggie can either shoot it or pass it back to Blake to shoot the 3 ball. Will we actually have to watch that next season?

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System Error or Cultural Wasteland

Post  BallinD on Tue Mar 20, 2018 7:02 pm

@Sparma: There may be even more going on than what is possible, but what is also comfortable.  Consider: SVG is a P&R guy who had to be dragged kicking and screaming toward a motion offense, with secondary ball handlers and secondary passers.  He talked about motion being harder to sustain at the beginning of the season, compared to pick and roll, his baby.  He warned us, perhaps because of the personnell and also warned about his own tendencies.  With Luke and Blake, and Bullock and even Dre, we have cutters, passers, shooters, post up, offensive rebounding.  Luke and Blake pose the best passing, and SJ is no slouch off the bench.  RJax can be a willing passer, but it is not his nature, but he is capable.

The culture here of an unselfish team has never been created nor supported by MGT/Leadership.

So back to Stan.  It is not really a surprise, considering how we got Blake before the ASB, that he went straight ISO with Blake for so many games, probably fueled by the false confidence spawned by the "catching teams on the second game of a B2B winning streak."  Now with Weggie coming back to an empty arena and a floundering team, why shouldn't we go back to the comfort zone of Weggie P&R, hero ball and let's go get a couple of more wins, even though we have no shot at the playoffs and we could sure use the opportunity to keep that 1-4 protected pick.  

It could be different, but SVG is not the man to make it so.


SPARMA: The reasons for us not playing such a team oriented way, that would include second passes and swarming defense, are many. Lack of basketball IQ? Sure, but I think we did show what we could do in the first 20 games. The coach? Yes, he's not getting the buy in needed, and seems behind the times tactically. PG troubles? Yes, but again I don't think that's the whole story. Along with those factors, success itself plays a role. Here's a genuine case of success breeding success, leading to buy in. But then, we were successful for 20 games, so success then and failure now don't seem to be the whole explanation.

What the Spurs got going, what the Dutch had decades ago with their Total Football, is a complex system, dependent on numerous elements. Sadly, we fall short of several counts, so that I think we're well removed from sustained success, even though we've got some good players. But then again, the beginning of the season showed what was possible.
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System Error

Post  Sparma on Tue Mar 20, 2018 5:54 pm

Thanks Don. Getting so few second assists reflects a really big problem, I think, one that's related to their poor defense (of late).

During the first 20 games, I'm pretty sure that we did get plenty of those second assists, and we did play a swarming team defense. That's why I'd thought we'd turned the corner.

My favorite sports team of all team was the '68 Tigers, followed the 1974 Dutch World Cup team, along with the Bad Boys. I lived in the Netherlands at the time, and the nation lived and died with their team. They lost a heartbreaker to Germany after going up in the first minute. Scoring the most goals in the tournament, letting up the fewest, having the MVP (Cruijff) won them admiration, but they were loved for the beautiful brand of Total Football that they invented. Without going into detail, a key component (along with individual brilliance) was putting the well being of the team over that of the individual, both on O and D.

We don't do that.

An example closer to home are the Spurs, where the individual is subordinated to what's best for the team, leading to decades of sustained excellence until this season.

The reasons for us not playing such a team oriented way, that would include second passes and swarming defense, are many. Lack of basketball IQ? Sure, but I think we did show what we could do in the first 20 games. The coach? Yes, he's not getting the buy in needed, and seems behind the times tactically. PG troubles? Yes, but again I don't think that's the whole story. Along with those factors, success itself plays a role. Here's a genuine case of success breeding success, leading to buy in. But then, we were successful for 20 games, so success then and failure now don't seem to be the whole explanation.

What the Spurs got going, what the Dutch had decades ago with their Total Football, is a complex system, dependent on numerous elements. Sadly, we fall short of several counts, so that I think we're well removed from sustained success, even though we've got some good players. But then again, the beginning of the season showed what was possible.


cool breeze wrote:
Sparma wrote:It's the Kings, but we'll take it.  Incidentally, they'll probably be better than us in two years.

Impressive game by Griffin.

Read a stat recently that confirmed my eye test: we're a little below average with assists, but near the bottom of the league with hockey assists, or passes leading to an official assist.  

Kelser highlighted a score by Griffin as our best offensive play, with all but one touching the ball on the play, and Griffin getting the ball back a third time, with the D out of balance.  It occurred to me that a reason Kelser emphasized that play so much is that it's so rare.  He knows that ball movement is key.  And not just  ball movement, not just passing the ball around the around.  What's needed is effective, creative, ball movement that leaves the D unable to cover the last guy who gets the ball.  We're really subpar on that score.  The numbers bear it out.

That said, we'll take any win on the road.

Well said Sparma. The play Kelser mentioned was meaningful. It must be a drag to announce Piston games when they see the same thing over and over. We have a low basketball IQ team when it comes to playing defense especially when games are on the line but the offense takes the cake. It seems that all of our players can only think one play ahead. And that play is them visualizing that they will shoot the ball. Nobody moves without the ball for a good reason. This makes the entire Piston coaching staff appear to be the dumbest or lowest basketball IQ coaching staff in the entire league. Maybe the players do fit well with this coaching staff. And where does the owner fit in with both entities if he was the one who insisted on that trade with the Clippers????
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Re: FORUM

Post  cool breeze on Tue Mar 20, 2018 2:12 pm

Sparma wrote:It's the Kings, but we'll take it.  Incidentally, they'll probably be better than us in two years.

Impressive game by Griffin.

Read a stat recently that confirmed my eye test: we're a little below average with assists, but near the bottom of the league with hockey assists, or passes leading to an official assist.  

Kelser highlighted a score by Griffin as our best offensive play, with all but one touching the ball on the play, and Griffin getting the ball back a third time, with the D out of balance.  It occurred to me that a reason Kelser emphasized that play so much is that it's so rare.  He knows that ball movement is key.  And not just  ball movement, not just passing the ball around the around.  What's needed is effective, creative, ball movement that leaves the D unable to cover the last guy who gets the ball.  We're really subpar on that score.  The numbers bear it out.

That said, we'll take any win on the road.

Well said Sparma. The play Kelser mentioned was meaningful. It must be a drag to announce Piston games when they see the same thing over and over. We have a low basketball IQ team when it comes to playing defense especially when games are on the line but the offense takes the cake. It seems that all of our players can only think one play ahead. And that play is them visualizing that they will shoot the ball. Nobody moves without the ball for a good reason. This makes the entire Piston coaching staff appear to be the dumbest or lowest basketball IQ coaching staff in the entire league. Maybe the players do fit well with this coaching staff. And where does the owner fit in with both entities if he was the one who insisted on that trade with the Clippers????

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What is the real truth relating to who pulled the trigger on the worst trade in Piston history????

Post  cool breeze on Tue Mar 20, 2018 2:03 pm

When the trade was first announced, writers stated that the Piston front office recommended against the trade involving Blake Griffin. Several sources stated that Tom Gores insisted on the trade and forced it to happen. Now according to the articles on the right side of this page the trade is regarded as a panic move by Stan Van Gundy and the Piston GM to save his job. What is it Piston fans? We need to identify who the idiot was so we can request the following. Either fire Stan Van Gundy from all duties or force the owner to sell the team to a more competent owner. Even Bill Davidson's wife wouldn't have agreed to the trades that ended up placing the Pistons in an impossible position to make any meaningful moves plus giving up our number on pick this season and the 2nd round pick next year. Nobody could dream up something this bad.

One final comment about the coaching. Why in hell is SVG still using Tolliver now that the Pistons are out of the playoff picture? Same thing happened last season where we saw Leuer log minutes that should have been used for a G League player or the forgotten Henry Ellenson. What if Ellenson played with the starters? Rest Blake Griffin for the rest of the season so he doesn't incur a serious injury. The Pistons ownership and management all the way down to the head coach and his assistants are the dumbest group in the entire NBA. What does that make us if we watch this abortion. The Pistons are dead and buried in the ground. They will dwell in no mans land for many years while AD works on the defensive rotation system. The only way to have any chance to improve the team would be to trade the Pistons most tradable asset. Andre Drummond must go. The Pistons might as well go deep into the basement and attempt to get lucky in the 2019 draft. We need draft picks and a young enough player who has great potential to become a star player in 3 years in any trade involving Drummond. We have no other players on the team that will bring much of anything. We have to hope that Stanley Johnson will figure things out next season too or let him go.

Being the Pistons need to get down to the range of the worst team in the NBA next season, SVG must go. He is an idiot who will try to win meaningless games unlike any other franchise when playoff chances are dim. SVG would drive any business into bankruptcy. The Pistons need a new young front office with a young college coach who can select competent assistant coaches not old cronies as SVG has done. If the owner trots out this same coaching staff and players next year he should not show his face in the arena. But maybe he could because unless a lot of free tickets are passed out to the high school kids, nobody will attend the games. You can see that this current group of Pistons prefer to play away from home. They liked the crowd at Portland. People there attend games win or lose but of course they love watching their guards play basketball. The perfect hell for SVG would be to have to spend eternity with his point guards with the exception of Buycks.

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Kings of the road?

Post  Sparma on Tue Mar 20, 2018 9:38 am

It's the Kings, but we'll take it. Incidentally, they'll probably be better than us in two years.

Impressive game by Griffin.

Read a stat recently that confirmed my eye test: we're a little below average with assists, but near the bottom of the league with hockey assists, or passes leading to an official assist.

Kelser highlighted a score by Griffin as our best offensive play, with all but one touching the ball on the play, and Griffin getting the ball back a third time, with the D out of balance. It occurred to me that a reason Kelser emphasized that play so much is that it's so rare. He knows that ball movement is key. And not just ball movement, not just passing the ball around the around. What's needed is effective, creative, ball movement that leaves the D unable to cover the last guy who gets the ball. We're really subpar on that score. The numbers bear it out.

That said, we'll take any win on the road.
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Michigan wins a STUNNER!!!

Post  Oracle on Sun Mar 18, 2018 1:28 am

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Re: FORUM

Post  Sparma on Sat Mar 17, 2018 10:42 pm

WTF: "If only this kind of magic happened in the NBA playoffs."

I'm wondering if there are fewer upsets in the NBA playoffs than in any other sport. Seven game series inherently lend themselves to the best team coming out victorious more often than in a single contest. Plus there are so many rounds the best, or one of the very best, almost always seems to win. There's baseball but a) success is distributed across a 25 man roster, and b) chance (millimeters making a difference in clubbing a projectile) plays a big role than in basketball.

Correction? Winning the regular season championship in (European) soccer rarely allows for real upsets. Leicester City winning the Premier League a couple of years ago was a genuine miracle. In the various playoffs, weird winners sometimes emerge (Liverpool winning when down 3-0), but even there it's rare anymore at the highest level (Champion's League).

But not as rare as in the NBA playoffs. The Pistons were a big surprise (could easily have lost v NJ or Indiana that year), but in retrospect it seems like they were clearly the best team in the playoffs that year.




WTF wrote:
Murph wrote:My condolences to all the Arizona fans out there.  Shocked

Is that the biggest upset in NCAA Tournament history?

It was until yesterday when a 16 seed knocks off a 1 seed in dominate fashion WOW!  Shocked  I can imagine everyone bracket is jacked up as Loyola just knocked off Tenn.    If only this kind of magic happened in the NBA playoffs 

Here's hoping my Wolverines are no worse than an Elite Eight team.   Funny though I'm thinking they could win it all smelling like 1989 all over.
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DeAndre Ayton

Post  WTF on Sat Mar 17, 2018 10:25 pm

I'm not sold, really getting tired of the hyping of freshman players and this one and done crap.   The only reason he could work at the NBA level is that it's so freaking watered down a turd could flourish.   Taking these freshmen players only makes the league worse year after year.
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Upset City

Post  WTF on Sat Mar 17, 2018 10:18 pm

Murph wrote:My condolences to all the Arizona fans out there.  Shocked

Is that the biggest upset in NCAA Tournament history?

It was until yesterday when a 16 seed knocks off a 1 seed in dominate fashion WOW!  Shocked  I can imagine everyone bracket is jacked up as Loyola just knocked off Tenn.    If only this kind of magic happened in the NBA playoffs 

Here's hoping my Wolverines are no worse than an Elite Eight team.   Funny though I'm thinking they could win it all smelling like 1989 all over.
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Re: FORUM

Post  cool breeze on Fri Mar 16, 2018 7:20 pm

Murph wrote:My condolences to all the Arizona fans out there.  Shocked

Is that the biggest upset in NCAA Tournament history?

Thanks Murph. It is pretty quiet in Tucson today. Everyone has the basketball blues. Arizona has won the conference tournament two years in a row plus were champs of the PAC12 tournament in both years. They had no juice in the NCAA tournament after that success during the regular season. But this loss should send a message to coach Miller. He had the best player in the country in DeAndre Ayton. Any team who had Ayton had a chance to win the tournament. But the guards on Arizona were not of the caliber of those skill players on Buffalo. Trier was the 2nd best player and was MVP of last season's PAC12 tournament. He plays both point and 2 guard. He was a deadly shooter up until the last week of the regular season. His game was off last night.

There are some comparisons between Arizona and our Pistons. The emphasis by Piston management has been to spend the bulk of the money on the center and power forward positions. Neither our center or power forward are good enough to carry any team in the NBA. Our skill players are 2nd rate and nowhere near close to any of the skill players on the current rosters of the playoff teams. Reggie Jackson was a back up for the Thunder and his teammates didn't approve of his selfish ways where Reggie put himself above the good of his team. Players let him know of their feelings too. There was no way he was coming back to the Thunder before Detroit made the trade for him. Yet Piston management has tried real hard to push the narrative that Reggie Jackson is a top tier NBA point guard. Reggie is a 2 guard and has never been a good game manager who could think like a point guard needs to think if his team is going to be successful. Mitchell was available in last season's draft. Coach SVG had his two guys in Jackson and Smith. Who in hell would go with those two if they ever expected to win in the playoffs let alone make the playoffs? Big mistake that has cost the Pistons big time. Now it is clear that Buycks is a better point guard than either Jackson or Smith based on his amazing game last night. He came from the minor leagues not high up in the draft. Is Buycks a top tier point guard. NO. Going to the Pistons 2 and 3 positions things get even more muddy. It is clear that our point guards, 2 guards or small forwards could crack the starting lineup on any current playoff team. We need to sift through the propaganda that the owner and President keeps sending. The Pistons played hard last night but couldn't stop my Grandmother on defense at any time for the entire first half. The starting unit is terrible.

The coaching strategy for Arizona and the Pistons sucks. Last night the coaching staff never made the adjustment when their big men were getting beat off the dribble. Sean Miller refuses to use any type of zone defense and that team has paid a big price all season long especially relating to Duson Ristic the starting center who is caught too far out on the pick and roll plays and is slow to recover. At least Ristic doesn't switch off like AD does with Smith so Smith is matched up with the opposing center in the paint. SVG refused to create an offense that fit his team now for the past two seasons. Miller refused to create a defense to fit his team at Arizona or to create an offense so his center could touch the ball more in the paint. Last night Ayton was really off his game. He hits his jump shots at a high percentage on most nights. Got to find a way to get him the ball in the paint but his teammates kept making mental mistakes including R. Alkins Arizona's small forward. I only mention his name because I saw his name listed as the Pistons 2nd round pick in this year's draft. What a mistake that would be to draft that player. Alkins is about 20 pounds over weight and is not in good basketball shape. He had an ankle injury earlier and missed a lot of games. But his ball handling skill level is primitive at best. His outside shooting ability is not anywhere near that of Alonzo trier who is listed further down in the 2nd round from Alkins. Alkins is not a good decision maker on offense and often leaves his feet before a teammate is open for a pass. Alkins turns the ball over a lot. It is insane that he is listed in the 2nd round. But it would only be fitting for the Pistons to pass on a point guard and draft Alkins. I don't think that SVG is that dumb but who knows.

I am happy for my old conference the MAC. Buffalo has an outstanding coach and some really tough players. I just hope they beat Kentucky. I still recall those loses in the tournament when CMU was matched up against Kentucky and took them to overtime and lost on a bogus call. And then there was the loss to UCLA that still hurts when Reggie Miller just couldn't miss. Go MAC! Watching Arizona lose the way they lost and then watching the Pistons game against Denver may have cured me of spending so much time watching basketball. But I still love the first week of the NCAA where the small schools get a chance to get lucky and knock off the media favorites.

If SVG doesn't start Buycks in the next game, he is an idiot. That trade involving Griffin has upset the applecart. I think Detroit had a good chance to make the playoffs if they had done nothing at all and retained their first round pick. It seems clear that almost everyone would agree with me on that.

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Re: FORUM

Post  Sparma on Fri Mar 16, 2018 3:15 pm

Really good point on Utah's commitment to development, Phil. This may sound silly now, but I'm not sure Gordon Hayward (drafted #9) was seen as a much better highly regarded prospect than Luke coming into the league. But Utah was fully committed to developing him. Same story with Mitchell. That's not to say I see Luke hitting their heights, but that commitment to development makes a big difference.

I really liked Spencer Dinwiddie coming into the league, even though I questioned if he (post-injury) could quite hang with NBA pace. You could see he had skills and smarts though. And getting farther from the injury, developing more strength gave him the physicality do very well in the league. I feel differently about Stanley J at #8 because I could see at once that his release point would be trouble in the NBA. That's someone you take a flier on lower in the draft (after drafting that super shooter from the region). Still, you could put a ton of work into developing him into a scrappy D guy who can be a weapon in open court from the get go. And the "development" of Kennard's been appalling; I can't get over Stan humiliating him by pulling him after a minute. That was a teaching moment, not a humiliation moment.

Phil1980boy wrote:I was looking at the 2017 NBA Draft close and I had Kennard ranked Sky high over Mitchell. Mitchell looked like A Rodney Stuckey clone to me.

Utah knows the only way they will ever win anything is to develop their draft picks.

Detroit and Gores think the only way for Detroit to win is to trade for Blake Griffin and give away lottery picks for A Organization that needs lottery picks DESPERTLEY!

Van Gundy does not develop young guys.

Utah does.

Advantage Mitchell. But Luke can play.
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Arizona

Post  Murph on Fri Mar 16, 2018 8:38 am

My condolences to all the Arizona fans out there. Shocked

Is that the biggest upset in NCAA Tournament history?
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More Of The Same...

Post  Murph on Fri Mar 16, 2018 8:35 am

I've been away for a week on vacation, and have not followed the Pistons, but it looks as if I haven't missed much.

On Jennings...I wrote last December as soon as Jackson went down, that the Pistons should pursue Jennings.

On 12/27/17 I wrote:
"Does anyone know anything about the CBA?  Can those guys get out of their contracts to return to the NBA?

If so, what about Brandon Jennings or Jimmer Fredette.  They are both 28 years old and tearing it up in China.  Also, Darius Adams might be worth a look.

https://basketball.realgm.com/international/league/40/chinese-cba/stats

SVG?"

From 12/29/17
"Yikes!  It wasn't just that we were missing Reggie, it was that everyone who had to adjust to life without Reggie was thrown off their game also.  

Ish had a good game as a starter, but Galloway had his worst game of the season trying to play back-up PG.  In fact, the entire 2nd unit was dreadful.

And Kennard is looking more and more like a spot up jump shooter, which is fine.  But he isn't a PG by any stretch of the imagination.

With Reggie out, we only have one PG on this team.  Unless SVG can pick up another NBA quality PG, our season is going down in a ball of flames.  For all the money he spent, SVG sure put together a poorly constructed roster."


I just don't understand how a complete novice and layman, like myself, can see this stuff clearly, but Stan Van Gundy cannot.  Is SVG that stupid?  Clearly, he is.


Last edited by Murph on Fri Mar 16, 2018 8:43 am; edited 1 time in total
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Kennard/ Mitchell

Post  Phil1980boy on Fri Mar 16, 2018 2:31 am

I was looking at the 2017 NBA Draft close and I had Kennard ranked Sky high over Mitchell. Mitchell looked like A Rodney Stuckey clone to me.

Utah knows the only way they will ever win anything is to develop their draft picks.

Detroit and Gores think the only way for Detroit to win is to trade for Blake Griffin and give away lottery picks for A Organization that needs lottery picks DESPERTLEY!

Van Gundy does not develop young guys.

Utah does.

Advantage Mitchell. But Luke can play.
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The Game

Post  BallinD on Fri Mar 16, 2018 2:21 am

Both Teams Played Hard.  Ball Don't Lie.

As bad as our closeouts are on jumpers, it makes you wonder if SVG's scheme is flawed, does not match the team's talent, of course that would never dissuade SVG from pushing it.  I wonder if we would be better off playing man defense because we are always too late on switches, scrambling all over the court, all because most other teams we play pass the ball more than they dribble it, while we do the opposite (and just wait till Weggie comes back if you wanna see some dribbling...)
facepalm

Sparma wrote:Good to have you back, Cool.

Good post on Kennard, BallinD.  I think he could average 15 right now given sufficient opportunity, and that's with muscle tone akin to my own.  We blame SVG for letting Dinwiddie go, and why not, but Spencer bulked up but good after the leaving the Pistons, and it seems to have made a heck of a difference.  If Kennard hits the weights, who knows....  Great shooter, understands the game, but may not have the dynamism to make it big at the highest level. Agreed about the dynamism, but I think shooting and playmaking will have to make do.

Game of his life for Buycks, but how many care?

Great comeback, but....

Great numbers for AD, but still outplayed by Jokic.  Solid games by Griffin and Bullock.  Horrific D for 3 quarters.

I wonder if that game seals SVG's fate.  What a clammy realization it must be for him that Reggie J is his ace, or last card at least, up his sleeve.
Yeah, the pressure is on that's for sure.  If that game doesnt seal his fate, then the next few certainly will.  He's asking himself oh why oh why didn't I trade Weggie when I had a chance.
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Pistons

Post  Sparma on Fri Mar 16, 2018 12:38 am

Good to have you back, Cool.

Good post on Kennard, BallinD. I think he could average 15 right now given sufficient opportunity, and that's with muscle tone akin to my own. We blame SVG for letting Dinwiddie go, and why not, but Spencer bulked up but good after the leaving the Pistons, and it seems to have made a heck of a difference. If Kennard hits the weights, who knows.... Great shooter, understands the game, but may not have the dynamism to make it big at the highest level.

Game of his life for Buycks, but how many care?

Great comeback, but....

Great numbers for AD, but still outplayed by Jokic. Solid games by Griffin and Bullock. Horrific D for 3 quarters.

I wonder if that game seals SVG's fate. What a clammy realization it must be for him that Reggie J is his ace, or last card at least, up his sleeve.
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Why Tom Gores is not giving up on Stan Van Gundy

Post  cool breeze on Thu Mar 15, 2018 11:55 pm

The prime reason is the fact that Tom Gores the man behind the bogus trade for Blake Griffin. If any trade should have taken place before the deadline it would be the trade that should have been made involving Andre Drummond. The Pistons are a dumb team. The overall basketball IQ is off the charts low. That is why most of us cannot identify with the players or the coach. I keep looking at who Stan Van Gundy is coaching. He has only one above average defenders and that guy is Stanley Johnson who is not a high quality offensive player. The problem with Johnson is the fact that he came into the draft without being the best player on his college team. He was at best the 4th best player in his one and only season as a college basketball player. Johnson as always been a very coachable player. So it is clear that the Piston coaching staff including the assistants who work with the 1-2 & 3s must be the worst coaching that SVG could have hired. Here is my official analysis of the team.

Point guards - low basketball IQ stands out for this position. The point guards including Reggie Jackson in his best physical condition are perhaps the worst players at that position in the entire league. That evaluation includes their ability to defend, managing the team on offense, and overall basketball IQ. And SVG and company keep using the excuse that Reggie is the missing piece. We all know better. Reggie Jackson is a 2 guard not a team leader winning type point guard. He is a losing type player who is the worst defender on the entire Piston team. And SVG didn't want any competition at that position because he signed both Jackson and Smith. That is why he didn't draft Mitchell. What an idiot but coaches have egos. The really want the players they sign have some success.

Power forwards - Tolliver played well for half of the season. He is a good player to have on the team. But going forward, where does he fit this team that needs an entire re build? Blake Griffin can fill a role but his prime is in the past. We have him for many years with no possibility of trading him. Henry Ellenson appears to have had zero improvement since he arrived in the draft. Remember the 2nd round pick from Sweden who ripped the Pistons in the Utah game. He was one of the most popular players as a rookie and had a huge fan base. However, the wise coaching staff thought they could do better and gave him away. Didn't fit the coaches needs. How does the power forwards stack up compared with the rest of the league. Average to below average.

Centers - Honesty I prefer to watch Moreland over AD. Please if anyone has ever seen Andre Drummond box out at a critical time in any game or at any time for that matter, please tell me when. AD might be the dumbest player that I have ever witnessed. He is athletically gifted with no basketball mind. He builds up mega stats but he has no idea what it takes mentally to be on a winning basketball team. And this Piston team or any that AD has played on has never had any leader who has a high basketball IQ who could get the best out of AD. AD might be a smart man IQ wise and a good person but he is not a real basketball player. He is a fake player who does what his agent tells him. And neither the owner or the head coach will do the right thing for the organization and trade AD who could bring us some draft picks or a high quality player. The Pistons need a top tier player and that player needs to be a point guard. Trade him before the draft and before he suffers an injury.

Shooting guards - Worst in the NBA. I don't care about the potential of Kennard. He is not a top tier 2 guard by any stretch. But Kennard has the most potential of any player on this team because he has a high basketball IQ. Bullock might be the starter and has shot well beyond the 3 point line but his basketball IQ is low. His overall game is not very good and nobody should believe that he will ever become one of the top 10 2 guards int he league.

Small Forwards - Worst in the NBA. If anybody thinks Ellis will ever be a real starter at any team other than the Pistons, then you are smoking some powerful weed. Johnson has suffered in SVG's system for sure. His jump shot was much better as a freshman in college than it is now. Johnson has no confidence in his offensive game. His time spent beyond the 3 point line on the baseline watching his teammates play on offense has cost him a lot. I blame his lack of development on SVG and his lame coaches and Johnson himself. He says as much when he admits that he is still trying to figure out how he fits the Piston offense. I don't think any member of the team fits the Pistons offense.

Bench - one of the worst benches in the NBA with few young players who might be capable of becoming star players eventually.

Every Piston fan who has been following the Pistons for a long time are sick at heart. I can't believe there is anyone who believes this group of players or the current coaches can ever become really competitive against the current teams who hold playoff positions in either conference. And thanks again Tom Gores for taking away that number on pick in the draft. Now there will be no interest at all in the Pistons over the summer. Nothing to hope for until management can come up with a plan to trade all players who hold big contracts. Phoenix has not done well but they have a ton of first round picks this summer. Imagine how excited their fans will be on draft day. Tom Gores never gave that a thought. He is an owner who needs to stay out of making any basketball decisions relating to trades or draft picks. But he will keep SVG around to keep the blame of of himself. Nobody seems to like SVG. How many of you like his choice of assistant coaches? with all the losing, SVG has not made any changes in his coaching staff. I don't see how any coach could win with this group of players. What is clear is that the young players need coaches who can help make them better. That hasn't happened in fact the young players seem to have regressed since SVG's staff arrived in Detroit.

Is it time to schedule a game between the Pistons and the Grand Rapids Drive? Maybe next year the Pistons could mix in playing some G League teams to get the fans out for the games. Leaving the Palace only meant that tax payers got screwed and the team lost more games than that might have if they had played in the Palace. So back to Detroit is a bogus notion. You need good players to bring out the fans who live in Detroit. They know all about basketball.

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Kennard

Post  BallinD on Thu Mar 15, 2018 11:30 pm

I'm a bit surprised SVG didn't trade Kennard, but am relieved. Why he is so scattershot with his rotations, I'll attribute to his panic-junkie disposition. I think fear and self doubt bedevil the Old Yeller.

From what I have seen, I would say Kennard needs to hit the weights hard. Mitchell seems to be a more chiseled, muscular player and that fits in with his amazing athleticism and confidence. Kennard if he can toughen up and get a coach who knows how to use him, I think he can be a core player if he learns to play with confidence, force and aggressiveness. He will always be a shooter and always be a playmaker, so there is that!

It reminds me of what Rick Carlisle said about why he refused to play Tayshaun in his rookie year; "He needs to learn to play with force" (as if Curry did that, LOL). I think that may be true for Luke, and trying to stay out of SVG's doghouse is already a full-time job, so the self doubt and caution of fearing to screw up along with a bit of rookie wall has hit him. Nonetheless, I believe he can average 20 in this league if he can get his head on straight, I could be wrong. He needs to play with other high-BBIQ players. It is so refreshing to see a real playmaker on our squad. Luke, along with Drums, Blake and Bullock are a good start on the future, I think. We just need that PG; come on lottery balls! Come on NBA! Think what a great story that would be if you can let the lottery balls bounce to the tune of Deeeeeeetroit Basketball! dance guitar
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BallinD/ Kennard/ Mitchell

Post  Sparma on Thu Mar 15, 2018 8:02 pm

Kennard played very well v Utah, maybe our only guy to do so. I think he'll have a long and productive NBA career.

Still....

Mitchell hasn't looked great against us, so I'm going by the press clippings in good measure here. He did hit the miracle 38 footer. More importantly, because more characteristically, he had a beautiful (bounce) pass into the corner once trapped. I just get downhearted when I hear he aced the interview (demonstrating excellent command, memory, and positional sense, I gather), and has a 6'10" wing span (where's Oracle to remind us of the contrast with Luke). Think he one of 5 guys to have scored at least 25 as often as he has as a rook, with all but one of the others in the Hall.

From what I've seen, he's not a superstar, but it seems clear he's a core player. Maybe I'm wrong (hope I am), but I see Kennard more as an excellent supplemental player. SVG complained about his lack of energy, but what I see is more of a guy who needs to play at his top speed, forcing things, to make things happen. His shooting's outstanding, and he'll find a niche somewhere, sometime. The game seems to catch up to Kennard a lot, with a lot of traps and suboptimal positions. It's not just his quickness that worries me, but his strength too. Mitchell seems like someone who can make a lot of things happen while playing at a speed that's comfortable for him.

Rubio and Mitchell as our backcourt?! Dang.

And maybe the Griffin trade wouldn't even have happened if that had been our backcourt, if only due to added spacing concerns.

And maybe the whole KCP fiasco would have gone down differently. I'm guessing we'd be facing a far better cap situation. Oh well, SVG would probably have blown the opportunity anyway.
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The lowest I have ever been since I been A Piston fan

Post  Phil1980boy on Thu Mar 15, 2018 2:43 am

I been A Pistons fan since I was A baby. This is the least amount of Pistons game I have watch ever!

I'm not interested at all in this team. The last game I looked at from beginning to end was when the Pistons were on the 5 game winning streak. When they lost the next 3 I stop watching.

This Organization and ownership are A disgrace to everything I believe in as A life time Pistons fan right now.

I will make sure I write Tom Gores and let him know how I feel. I hope Gores sale the team to somebody who knows what to do.

STAN VAN GUNDY SHOULD BE FIRED RIGHT NOW! NOT TOMORROW..NOW!

thumbs down thumbs down thumbs down thumbs down thumbs down thumbs down thumbs down thumbs down

I have to make sure I call WOJO and talk about how poor this Organization is right now!
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A Picture Is Worth A Thousand Words

Post  BallinD on Thu Mar 15, 2018 12:55 am

Sad sack Pistons mourning the fact that SVG still sits in the coaching seat. "Get him outta here" Griff was heard to whisper to Bullock.  "It's not all that bad," Bullock countered.  "After a couple of years you kinda get over it.  We've learned to tune him out by the 60th game or so, every season." lol  lol  lol

@Sparma...interesting matchup with Kennard and Mitch.  Better coach and better team for Mitch means he had no need to break a sweat to get the W.  Kennard led us in minutes and scoring and still did not get the win.  Meh.

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Re: FORUM

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