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FORUM - Page 12 Empty Shoes On The Wrong Foot

Post  deusXango Mon May 07, 2018 9:36 pm

SVG wasn't sh!t as coach or president for us but, let's get things straight; a President of Operations/GM should come before searching for a coaching replacement for Van Gundy. Get the best front office leadership available and allow him to hire his own coach (no 1st round pick, no hope for signing or trading for a stellar FA) there's not much else the incoming GM can do. Such is the confusion and mess SVG created and to think there are some fans angry that SVG wasn't given another year to set this franchise further back.

Perhaps now we can stop talking about how invaluable Reggie Jackson is as our starting PG; Reggie has never been a competent PG, he's a defenseless SG! He should not be kept on as part of the Pistons going forward...he's not our answer as an on court leader worthy of starting and if deployed to come off the bench, he'll be nothing but trouble...his true value at this point is a salary dump, if it can be done.

Jon Leuer should be moved also; if we can view this team as better without Morris and Harris, something is wrong should we hold onto Leuer who IMHO was the weakest of the three. That'd back us away from the luxury tax line by $27 million and at least allow us to enter the conversation for Kawhi Leonard's services. Ask not, have not.

RIDICULOUS THOUGHT:
Test the trade possibilities for Markell Fultz, as Philly is drunk in love with Ben Simmons now.

RIDICULOUS DREAM/HOPE:
Should the Pistons miraculously end up with a top three pick this year, Luca Doncic! This guy ain't no Darko before that comes up as a naysayers argument. We desperately need a dynamic starting PG, SF, or both. Reggie Jackson and Stanley Johnson ain't it.
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FORUM - Page 12 Empty Do Over Dept.

Post  WTF Mon May 07, 2018 8:13 pm

I wouldn't be oppose to giving Cheeks another run at this team since we this organization finds it so difficult to reach back into history to hire it's own to coach and run this team.   

I wouldn't be oppose to Franks either like in the case of Cheeks both suffered under the bad Joe Dumars, these weren't bad coaches just victims of a **** roster and crappy management under Joe.  Especially in the case of Cheeks IMO.  

I like the idea of Chauncey as I would if any Former Pistons player was considered for either job.  I'm so so on the idea of Stackhouse coaching and I do love Stackhouse but I'm not overly excited hearing his name being in the mix.  

As for a lot of the others being mentioned well this picking the next thing trending makes be sick.  Find someone that has history with this team, or been part of a winning tradition over a long period of time.

Another name that gets lost is Ewing as coach.  Why Not!

The best solution I think is getting the best of the best we had here.  Wouldn't it be something special if we had Zeke, CB and Hill all here in some capacity leading this organization back to greatness.
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FORUM - Page 12 Empty Finally

Post  WTF Mon May 07, 2018 7:07 pm

Good Riddance!!!!! Finally after being 2 seasons late in doing so Gore slightly came to his senses.    Now this is only half the battle because I'm not sure Gore can hire the right coach on his second attempt either.
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FORUM - Page 12 Empty Nugget?

Post  Sparma Mon May 07, 2018 3:02 pm

This detail caught my attention. First time I've heard of it. Somehow Woj get a lot of inside dope. He's just saying Barry would be a candidate for a role.

"ESPN's Adrian Wojnarowski, who first reported the news, said former player Brent Barry is a candidate for a role in the organization."
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FORUM - Page 12 Empty Stan Out

Post  Sparma Mon May 07, 2018 2:47 pm

Celebrate, but also now for the hard part: improving.

Side note: counterfactuals will make the precise effect of Stan leaving hard to gauge, at least in the short term. How would they have done with Stan on board next year? Have a winning record, in my opinion. It's in messing up our long term, high ceiling, prospects that I think Stan screwed up seriously. And he no longer seemed to be an effective coach.

What next? After making a pitch for Stackhouse here, I'd decided -- in part due to Murph's mentioning the importance of experience -- that Fizdale would be the optimal guy. He's gone. Maybe Budenholzer? I'm not such a Kidd fan, but I could be wrong.

Not sure what Arne Tellum running the show would get us, if anything. Couldn't we do better?

This is going to be a tricky business, calling for astute judgment. I'm relieved that Stan's out, but my confidence level in the longer term future still isn't high.

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FORUM - Page 12 Empty What Pistons must do: We have a playoff team, always did, BUT...

Post  Oracle Sun May 06, 2018 10:56 pm

Stan Van Gundy is not capable of coaching us there! It now falls to Gores to right this ship, and he needs to do two things right at the start!

Fire SVG and his whole crew: There's no way around this, we need new coaching and a better GM to make this roster and organization work.

I really do want to thank SVG for most of what he's done, but quite frankly, he peaked when we went to the playoffs, and I wish we knew what we know not, and dropped him then.

A new GM would be tasked with cleaning up the mess SVB has gotten us into, and a new coach would be tasked to open up the stale and out dated offense that SVG runs. 

We also need a dose of fairness! No, you don't treat rookies like vets, but you don't treat them like dirt either. SVG prejudges rookies and seeks phantom excuses to not play them. I don't care if they're not played for valid reason, and sometimes he has them, but most times it's some vague crap that makes little sense.

Point Guard is JOB 1: Keep Reggie until we can replace him, either by trade, grooming a rookie draft pick, or getting an FA, but until we get that position solidified, we're a 5th-6th seed at best.

Wake Up Calls: These are the things we MUST realize and fully understand.
1. Drummond is not the player to build around yet! We don't have a player good enough to justify building around, so for now we're looking for complementary pieces to build the framework of a good team, when and if that player shows up.
2. The Reggie Jackson story, while not over, is in transition, and not in a good direction
3. We need a coach that will play the youngsters as much as possible for the sole purpose of letting us know what we have. We can't wait until their 3/4th year, still trying to figure out if they can hit a shot or play defense.

There's more, but that's all I've got for now.
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FORUM - Page 12 Empty SNL is too funny...

Post  Oracle Sun May 06, 2018 9:43 pm

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FORUM - Page 12 Empty Arnie

Post  Sparma Sun May 06, 2018 12:09 pm

Good point about Arnie, Oracle. Never understood what happened there. He almost seemed like a miracle worker.

Oracle wrote:Yes, I agree it's too early to draw definitive conclusions, but the signs point to it being pretty much right on.

Mitchell is a player you can build a team around and it's amazing how far he's taken that team of scrubs and made them believe at such a young age. Kennard doesn't have that capability, but he doesn't need it, he's well on his way to becoming a Korver type player with a better, more rounded skill set. Korver is pretty much a one trick pony.

The sad part is that, IMO, Mitchell was the pick we really needed for the future, nobody can argue that Kennard wasn't the correct pick for the present, and in that distinction lies the mistake SVG made.

Having said that, I understand his calculation, we were projected to be real good, and additional shooting could have pushed us over the top. Problem was that SVG overestimated his coaching ability, which failed him in the fading days of the season, like it always does.

Has anyone else noticed how we tend to fade exactly when we need to win most? That's a disturbing trend, and IMO, it's partially because the team tunes him out over the course of the season.

SVG's biggest mistake? Getting rid of Arnie! We went from a team that was uncannily healthy, lose Arnie, then to a team that is injured damn near all the time... that can't be an accident!

With Arnie, I would have hope that he could do for Blake and Reggie what he did for the Dice Man, but I have no such hope now!
WTF wrote:Too early to make this assessment either way because what if Mitchell just have an average season next year that is very possible.  Now I'm not hoping that happens with Mitchell but IMO making this claims from an organization perspective or player perspective just seems far too early.  I think in some form or another we all have said that under Coach SVG either could be negatively impacted  sadly it was Kennard.  We can talk about short term but long term no way we should talking this early or compare it to the Darko scenario in any way.  

If we are going to then the last 5 lottery picks can be spoken about in the same manner.
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FORUM - Page 12 Empty Wise: Fair enough... and SVG's biggest mistake!

Post  Oracle Sun May 06, 2018 10:42 am

Yes, I agree it's too early to draw definitive conclusions, but the signs point to it being pretty much right on.

Mitchell is a player you can build a team around and it's amazing how far he's taken that team of scrubs and made them believe at such a young age. Kennard doesn't have that capability, but he doesn't need it, he's well on his way to becoming a Korver type player with a better, more rounded skill set. Korver is pretty much a one trick pony.

The sad part is that, IMO, Mitchell was the pick we really needed for the future, nobody can argue that Kennard wasn't the correct pick for the present, and in that distinction lies the mistake SVG made.

Having said that, I understand his calculation, we were projected to be real good, and additional shooting could have pushed us over the top. Problem was that SVG overestimated his coaching ability, which failed him in the fading days of the season, like it always does.

Has anyone else noticed how we tend to fade exactly when we need to win most? That's a disturbing trend, and IMO, it's partially because the team tunes him out over the course of the season.

SVG's biggest mistake? Getting rid of Arnie! We went from a team that was uncannily healthy, lose Arnie, then to a team that is injured damn near all the time... that can't be an accident!

With Arnie, I would have hope that he could do for Blake and Reggie what he did for the Dice Man, but I have no such hope now!
WTF wrote:Too early to make this assessment either way because what if Mitchell just have an average season next year that is very possible.  Now I'm not hoping that happens with Mitchell but IMO making this claims from an organization perspective or player perspective just seems far too early.  I think in some form or another we all have said that under Coach SVG either could be negatively impacted  sadly it was Kennard.  We can talk about short term but long term no way we should talking this early or compare it to the Darko scenario in any way.  

If we are going to then the last 5 lottery picks can be spoken about in the same manner.
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FORUM - Page 12 Empty I Still Dream Though

Post  WTF Sat May 05, 2018 1:16 pm

Reggie isn't horrible he's just not the type of PG needed to run an offense.  Reggie is a Six man Type and I agree he should be playing the role that Ish currently plays on this team.   What we need is another CB IMO someone that versatile with his style of play or even a Rondo type would be nice but a Reggie type should not be leading this team.  

Watching Rondo 21 assist performance was fantastic, I love seeing stuff like that I wish we had a PG that does that.  But having another CB would be even more special a consistent threat from 3 point land, big enough to post up and strong enough to draw fouls but more importantly knowing when all those things are needed.
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FORUM - Page 12 Empty Reggie J

Post  Sparma Sat May 05, 2018 9:23 am

Very good post on Reggie J, Murph, demonstrating what a mixed bag he is.

One counter I'd raise is that the previous year the pattern with and without him looked quite different, when we played worse with him in there.

Concerning this year, I'll try to say something fair about the start of the year even though I'm generally anti-Reggie. He made a big difference in the game in which he got injured, looking for assists really well. Hadn't the decline already started (for about 5 games) by then? As to the 14-6 start, my sense is that it was less due to Reggie than to Reggie not getting in the way, or at least playing less like bad-Reggie. I think he was less ball dominant during that stretch than usual (maybe due to the many criticisms of how poorly we'd played with him the previous year) and more energized defensively (I still think Bradley's urgings had something to do with that). That stretch was Reggie at his best; it's probably unfair to say that's also when he played least like Reggie usually does. In retrospect, a magical stretch when everything clicked.

When he came back from injury, he played more in his characteristic style. And I'm admit that he made a pretty big difference when in there, also providing a glimpse in the 4 Big 3 games that they could have a really good thing going (my skepticism notwithstanding).



Murph wrote:Don...I hate to be put in the position of defending Reggie Jackson.  You make many good points about his ball dominant style of play.  I agree that allowing Reggie to pound the basketball, while he tries to make something happen has a limited ceiling.  It might work to an extent during the regular season, but ultimately it doesn't work against really good defensive teams, and it won't work in the playoffs.

That said, objectively speaking, Reggie isn't bad.  Last season the Pistons went 27-18 (.600) with Jackson in the line-up, and they went 12-25 (.297) when Jackson was hurt.

If Jackson completely sucks, and is one of the worst PGs in the league, how do you explain that?  Not only were the Pistons a very good team when Jackson was healthy, but they won at twice the rate as when Jackson was hurt.  How do you explain that fact, in your world view that Jackson is the root of all evil???   Twisted Evil



I think a more objective explanation is this:  Yes, RJ's style of play has a limited upside.  And yes, he is very injury prone.  And yes, he is over-paid.   And no, he probably shouldn't be our starting PG.  Nevertheless, RJ is very talented, and could be very valuable to the Pistons if used the right way, by the right coach.

IMO, what the Pistons need to do is dump Ish, and use Jackson the way they used Ish this season.  Find a more stable starting PG who moves the ball, facilitates the offense, and can shoot from outside.  Then bring Reggie off the bench to improvise to his hearts content and take over the game when he's on.



In this way, the Pistons could show 4 completely different offenses.  1. Our starting PG moves the ball around the perimeter in a motion offense.  2.  Blake Griffin takes the ball at the top of the key, and either drives to the hoop in an iso, or dishes it to one of three shooters on the perimeter (our new PG, Bullock, Kennard, Galloway, Tolliver if he comes back, etc.)  3.  Reggie comes off the bench to run the pick-n-roll with Drummond.  4.  Reggie comes off the bench and dribbles around like a madman, and hopefully gets free to drive to the hoop, or dishes to a shooter standing on the perimeter.

That offense is going to show so many different looks and options that it's going to be a nightmare to defend.  And our defense is already among the best in the league, thanks to Drummond.  So if everyone stays healthy, I don't see why the Pistons couldn't make the playoff and go into the 2nd round at least.



Anyway, that's my vision for next year.  I just don't think SVG is smart enough or creative enough to implement it.
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FORUM - Page 12 Empty Reggie Jackson

Post  Murph Sat May 05, 2018 8:10 am

Don...I hate to be put in the position of defending Reggie Jackson.  You make many good points about his ball dominant style of play.  I agree that allowing Reggie to pound the basketball, while he tries to make something happen has a limited ceiling.  It might work to an extent during the regular season, but ultimately it doesn't work against really good defensive teams, and it won't work in the playoffs.

That said, objectively speaking, Reggie isn't bad.  Last season the Pistons went 27-18 (.600) with Jackson in the line-up, and they went 12-25 (.297) when Jackson was hurt.

If Jackson completely sucks, and is one of the worst PGs in the league, how do you explain that?  Not only were the Pistons a very good team when Jackson was healthy, but they won at twice the rate as when Jackson was hurt.  How do you explain that fact, in your world view that Jackson is the root of all evil???   Twisted Evil



I think a more objective explanation is this:  Yes, RJ's style of play has a limited upside.  And yes, he is very injury prone.  And yes, he is over-paid.   And no, he probably shouldn't be our starting PG.  Nevertheless, RJ is very talented, and could be very valuable to the Pistons if used the right way, by the right coach.

IMO, what the Pistons need to do is dump Ish, and use Jackson the way they used Ish this season.  Find a more stable starting PG who moves the ball, facilitates the offense, and can shoot from outside.  Then bring Reggie off the bench to improvise to his hearts content and take over the game when he's on.



In this way, the Pistons could show 4 completely different offenses.  1. Our starting PG moves the ball around the perimeter in a motion offense.  2.  Blake Griffin takes the ball at the top of the key, and either drives to the hoop in an iso, or dishes it to one of three shooters on the perimeter (our new PG, Bullock, Kennard, Galloway, Tolliver if he comes back, etc.)  3.  Reggie comes off the bench to run the pick-n-roll with Drummond.  4.  Reggie comes off the bench and dribbles around like a madman, and hopefully gets free to drive to the hoop, or dishes to a shooter standing on the perimeter.

That offense is going to show so many different looks and options that it's going to be a nightmare to defend.  And our defense is already among the best in the league, thanks to Drummond.  So if everyone stays healthy, I don't see why the Pistons couldn't make the playoff and go into the 2nd round at least.



Anyway, that's my vision for next year.  I just don't think SVG is smart enough or creative enough to implement it.

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FORUM - Page 12 Empty Re: FORUM

Post  cool breeze Sat May 05, 2018 2:54 am

Oracle wrote:
Murph wrote:And that wouldn't have anything to do with the fact that TJ McConnel was an Arizona Wildcat, would it? I swear Don, you are so biased, you don't even know how biased you are. FORUM - Page 12 Icon_rolleyes
Yes, Murph is 100% right, Don is biased, but it's alright to be biased if you can admit it.

There are times when I'm in complete homer status about our home teams... difference is that I know it, will readily admit it and have no shame about it  lol 

Don, you love where your're from and where you are, just admit it and move on!

I don't know how I can further clarify how both of you have it wrong about my post on TJ. The announcers brought this subject up during the last part of the 3rd quarter and and the first half of the 4th.Philly haS some great young players. The coach didn't pick his number one pick to come in when Philly was struggling. Simmons was sitting on the bench and TJ was playing his butt off for the time in the game that I had mentioned. TJ is a pass first point guard who sees the floor well. That is a fact. He is a real point guard with brains. His teammates move without the ball faster thinking he will see them when they are open. Do Piston players move fast without the ball when Reggie Jackson is in charge of the offense? TJ makes next to nothing in NBA terms but he is an effective hard nosed player. My statement has nothing to do with subjective thinking. I am just happy for the guy who defied the odds being he is not the biggest or strongest player and has been able to make an NBA team and secure regular playing time. I have no personal relationship with him nor did I have special feelings for him because he played at Arizona. When he comes in Philly usually starts playing better during times that they struggle. My intent of spending my time writing about TJ is the fact that he has something that Reggie Jackson doesn't have. TJ has some of Zeke's ability to see three plays ahead. Now I know Murph will take that statement as Don now comparing TJ and Zeke and saying Don thinks TJ is as good of a player as Isiah Thomas. So it is useless to respond because his comments are intended to punish not discuss. Lack of intellectual diversity has become the norm in America these days and now it has entered here with silly criticisms relating to the game of basketball of a posters opinion. I do not think the intent of the forum was to say Don is a jerk or WTF is that or Oracle is something else. The person who makes those comments should look themselves in the mirror. We all have our opinions but now posters might leave the forum because some posters get off by making childish attacks like "all Arizona fans should be hanging their heads now because of the FBI investigation. Are the fans responsible for any wrong doing? Will the Michigan State fans ( I am an MSU fan) now have to hang their heads in shame. I will have to hang my head even further down now if MSU is brought down to their knees. That is one of Murph's silly comments intended to provoke me. I knew some kids that used to do that type of thing. I like it when posters provide something they see in actual games. But some people have sad lives and are unhappy so they have a need to try to get under someone's skin. And he was successful when he came to me. I read his childish post and then you say Murph you are 100% right but Don his a homer type person. Yep that is what Don is. At least I made a real comment about the game between Philly and Boston. That was real. I didn't try to analyze why the announcers said basically the same thing that I wrote in that post. Obviously you didn't see TJ play in this last game during the time that I watched the game or you wouldn't have responded the way you did. No Oracle Murph wasn't correct. The announcers agreed with my observations. Murph didn't like me writing about the un drafted nobody TJ. Who make him God? Murph is a Boston fan. Maybe right now he hates the Philly players. Who knows or cares now. This forum is not a good place to be a part of these days.

The focus should be on the Pistons and how far they have fallen. Perhaps Murph is pissed off with posters who believe that the current players who represent the Pistons are not very good. I am talking about AD-RJ-BG-Jon Leuer and Langston Galloway. Those 5 players take the bulk of the payroll. And that is incredible to me at least being that Tolliver was the best player on the team this season. They are not in the same category as the elite players who are now playing in the playoffs. I am tired of watching them because they do not play smart. If anyone likes watching Reggie Jackson tip toe around with his fake defense or watch AD make his mental mistakes or fail to become engaged then more power to you. I have had enough. Maybe Murph loves AD and RJ and believes in them so he feels that to get back at me he must say "Stanley Johnson sucks". Who knows and I really could care less if anyone likes our current players including Stanley Johnson who has been a big disappointment but is only 21 years old and is the best defender on the Piston team. The owner, SVG, Bower and who ever else decided to pass on Mitchell get the dunce cap award. I do not believe that Kennard would have done any better with a different coach this season. He did pretty well in my opinion but is really not strong enough yet to make his mark as a top tier type player. He is still in the learning phase like Stanley Johnson. And I would prefer Kennard playing point guard over Reggie Jackson because of Kennard's leadership ability and his basketball IQ. You cannot have a starting point guard expect to win who has a low basketball IQ and questionable work ethic when playing defense.

I agree with everyone who believes SVG sucks as the Pistons head coach. I base my opinion on is inability to make his players better as well has the dysfunctional offensive system he uses. He has no control over his point guards who dominate the basketball yet are not top tier NBA players. I think SVG's punishment should be that he has to come back and coach these players he has paid so much money for and watch them lose again next season. He should be forced to listen to AD say coach screw you i don't have to listen to you. I have a special relationship with Tom. I am going to shoot free throws and will not do any conditioning work. But Andre you could be so much better if you dropped 20 pounds. Can't make me do it coach. Any more talk and I will call Tom. And don't pick on Reggie Jackson and I want you to sign Charlie V. Get it done. Being that the Pistons always seem to be poorly prepared to play is that what goes on in practice? Some say that is what has gone on especially two seasons ago. That is when changes needed to be made but nothing happened. The Pistons were getting blown out in the first quarter. They were not really trying very hard if you can recall those dull performances by our team. But the excuse was that Reggie was not himself.

Boston has a great head coach. He would make our Piston players better. But Stevens has better players on that Boston team for sure. We do not have the players so if SVG is fired don't expect much. I am sure that Brad Stevens would not have picked AD and RJ as his team leaders if he had been forced to coach our Piston team for the past two seasons. But everyone would know that Stevens was in charge unlike SVG who is not in charge of anyone but the bench guys he yells at who do not play. The big contract guys ignore SVG and he has been OK with it as long as the paychecks keep coming in. AD would have to be fully engaged for the entire game or he would have limited minutes under Stevens. RJ would not be playing much at all because he can't or won't play defense or share the basketball with anyone but AD. Stevens would make Blake Griffin into an effective player because Griffin when healthy has some basketball brains and plays hard all of the time. When you look at the Pistons, players like Bullock, Johnson, Kennard, Moreland, Buycks, are hard working guys who are trying to get better but have very little say in how the team is run. SVG make things clear who ran his team last season when he closed down all players only meetings when AD and RJ were called out. If the young Pistons had a young Isiah Thomas on their team, I believe they would be playing a lot better and would be happier players. Who can be happy when you have to play with ball dominate point guards who are mid level at best but are treated by the coach as All Stars? What would Stevens do? He would trade AD and try like hell to package Jackson with AD because nobody the league wants Reggie Jackson's contract. AD is the only tradable piece that makes sense for a team that is going nowhere. SVG and Tom Gores got the team in this current no mans land position. No basketball expert has any respect for the Pistons. We are all wishing and hoping when there is no chance in hell that these players can do anything but lose.

This is the same story that I have been saying over and over on this forum. It is now time to fold the tent and move on unless somebody like Zeke takes over SVG's job. The first thing he would do is trade AD and remove RJ. I guarantee that would happen. And being the owner has this special bond with AD, no person like Zeke will be hired. Tom Gores wants politically correct YES men in the head coaching and GM positions. He has his man in SVG. So long Piston posters and good fortune. If Zeke comes back, I will come back. Otherwise I am going the way of Bill Laimbeer who doesn't watch NBA ball anymore.

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FORUM - Page 12 Empty IJS

Post  WTF Sat May 05, 2018 2:44 am

Oracle wrote:
WTF wrote:Kennard pick wasn't worse than Darko pick  facepalm  Some talking heads just need to STFU.   Nothing wrong with the pick but everything wrong with the coach that selected him.   Under a competent coach Kennard might have been ROY but not with this dum dum coaching him...
Wise, you like the talking head that's complaining about this miss the point.

He's NOT, not comparing Kennard to Darko, he's comparing the effect on the organization.

The Pistons picked Darko and won a championship, picking Darko didn't hurt us in the least in the short term, but did long term.

Picking Kennard over Mitchell not only hurt us in the short term, it hurt us long term as well, unless you expect to see Kennard become the star that Mitchell already is.

So yes, the effect on the organization is much worse, but I also agree that with a different coach, Kennard would have been in the ROY conversation, maybe a distant 3rd behind Mitchell & Simmons.

Too early to make this assessment either way because what if Mitchell just have an average season next year that is very possible.  Now I'm not hoping that happens with Mitchell but IMO making this claims from an organization perspective or player perspective just seems far too early.  I think in some form or another we all have said that under Coach SVG either could be negatively impacted  sadly it was Kennard.  We can talk about short term but long term no way we should talking this early or compare it to the Darko scenario in any way.  

If we are going to then the last 5 lottery picks can be spoken about in the same manner.
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FORUM - Page 12 Empty Wrong, Wrong and Wrong Again

Post  Murph Fri May 04, 2018 11:59 pm

Yes Don, I did happen to watch the Celtics-76ers game. I watched the Celtics come storming back in the 2nd quarter from a 22 point deficit. The 6ers were shell shocked. I noticed Smart, Rozier, Tatum and Horford for the Celtics, and I noticed Covington, Embiid and Saric for the 6ers. But in all honesty, I didn't notice McConnell at all.

Your post took me by such surprise that I had to check the box score. I see that McConnell had all of 8 points off the bench, so it's not surprising that he slipped my notice.


I've decided that since Boogie got injured that Embiid is my new least favorite player in the NBA.

Go Celtics!

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FORUM - Page 12 Empty Kennard pick WAS worse than Darko

Post  Oracle Fri May 04, 2018 8:22 pm

WTF wrote:Kennard pick wasn't worse than Darko pick  facepalm  Some talking heads just need to STFU.   Nothing wrong with the pick but everything wrong with the coach that selected him.   Under a competent coach Kennard might have been ROY but not with this dum dum coaching him...
Wise, you like the talking head that's complaining about this miss the point.

He's NOT, not comparing Kennard to Darko, he's comparing the effect on the organization.

The Pistons picked Darko and won a championship, picking Darko didn't hurt us in the least in the short term, but did long term.

Picking Kennard over Mitchell not only hurt us in the short term, it hurt us long term as well, unless you expect to see Kennard become the star that Mitchell already is.

So yes, the effect on the organization is much worse, but I also agree that with a different coach, Kennard would have been in the ROY conversation, maybe a distant 3rd behind Mitchell & Simmons.
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Post  Oracle Fri May 04, 2018 8:15 pm

Murph wrote:And that wouldn't have anything to do with the fact that TJ McConnel was an Arizona Wildcat, would it? I swear Don, you are so biased, you don't even know how biased you are. FORUM - Page 12 Icon_rolleyes
Yes, Murph is 100% right, Don is biased, but it's alright to be biased if you can admit it.

There are times when I'm in complete homer status about our home teams... difference is that I know it, will readily admit it and have no shame about it  lol 

Don, you love where your're from and where you are, just admit it and move on!
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Post  cool breeze Fri May 04, 2018 6:50 pm

Murph wrote:"Watching the Philly-Boston series I couldn't take my eyes off of TJ MCConnell in the 2nd half. Philly's coach put McConnell in the game and sat Simmons. MCConnell is one smart basketball player in a small body. Still he bodied up against Boston's big men when his teammates were out of position. TJ is getting paid peanuts and the kind of point guard the Pistons could use. If only Reggie Jackson had the heart and basketball IQ of MCConnell our Pistons would be in much better shape."

And that wouldn't have anything to do with the fact that TJ McConnel was an Arizona Wildcat, would it?  I swear Don, you are so biased, you don't even know how biased you are.  Rolling Eyes

Did you watch the game Murph? I thought not. My statement has nothing to do with the fact that I live in Tucson. I wasn't surprised that McConnell was not drafted by anyone. I thought there was no chance to make an NBA team. But he has proved a lot of people wrong. What a story. This guy has been such a success in Philly that they had no interest in Ish Smith. But TJ is one of the smartest players that I have witnessed as a college kid. He clearly was the PAC 12 most valuable player as Bill Walton keeps on saying whenever McConnell's name comes up. He is a coach on the floor for Philly. They have no room for him now because of the talent they have accumulated but the head coach trusts TJ and he sure played well in this last game. Players love playing with him which is not the case when thinking of Reggie Jackson and that players only meeting. The owner and SVG love him. That tells me a lot about them. Reggie was always a ball hog but now his cardio leaves him gasping for breath even in the first quarter. What is wrong. Does he have asthma? And the legs are going too. So the Pistons have a center who is dumb as a box of rocks when playing basketball. Off the court he is a smart man. And of course we have Blake Griffin who also has issues with his legs, toes and perhaps joint issues with his hips. That is where the money has gone. The rest of the money has gone to Jon Leuer and Galloway. But you keep bringing up the name Stanley Johnson as if he is making $35M. If you are on the low end of the pay scale your opinion means squat. That's the way it goes in Piston land. SVG needs to come back and suffer through another year of losing to take his proper punishment. Perhaps Josh Smith could go 1 against 5 of the highest paid Pistons and beat them. The 5 will have to play with Andre Drummond who will not be "engaged" for that matchup. Just didn't feel like playing maybe. meanwhile, Anthony Davis and Embid are engaged all of the time. Our Big 5 need Charlie V to make a come back and get the 6th man of the year award. He can shoot it from deep. He fits SVG's 4 out and 1 in system. This Piston team sucks. So they have the perfect coaching staff now. Keep SVG.

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Post  Murph Fri May 04, 2018 5:35 pm

"Watching the Philly-Boston series I couldn't take my eyes off of TJ MCConnell in the 2nd half. Philly's coach put McConnell in the game and sat Simmons. MCConnell is one smart basketball player in a small body. Still he bodied up against Boston's big men when his teammates were out of position. TJ is getting paid peanuts and the kind of point guard the Pistons could use. If only Reggie Jackson had the heart and basketball IQ of MCConnell our Pistons would be in much better shape."

And that wouldn't have anything to do with the fact that TJ McConnel was an Arizona Wildcat, would it? I swear Don, you are so biased, you don't even know how biased you are. Rolling Eyes

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Post  WTF Fri May 04, 2018 12:06 pm

I just hate when many of you do this.  I think many of us were okay with the Kennard pick initially and in fact a lot of us was thinking we might have something special in Kennard after watching him in SL and into preseason.   I don't think anything changed with Kennard being special he just plays for a dumbass coach who has no desire to develop him to his full potential.   

Many considered Kennard meaning other rookies the best player in SL and best shooter.   I hate when dumb dumbs like Shawn Windsor say dumb **** like he did.  First how the hell do you compare a #2 pick and a #11?  this alone say's he needs to STFU!.   Mitchell is certainly starting out better than Kennard and no one can deny that.  If you use Windsor comments as a source of any truth then every player select before him is a Darko pick  facepalm

I remember a lot of talk amongst talking heads comparing Kennard to Mullins and having deceptive quickness and now all of a sudden he's a Darko.  I'm starting to really hate everything about this team starting with coach and owner to the dumbass people that report on this team.   This is about the dumbest I have ever seen this team and those that write about them in my entire life as a fan. WTF!!!!
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Post  cool breeze Fri May 04, 2018 11:57 am

Murph wrote:Yes, maybe Oracle.  I went back through the archives, and couldn't find many posts on Mitchell.  I remember I was opposed to Mitchell because he was not listed as a PG, but rather a 6'2 SG.  All I could think of was another Ben Gordon.   Man, I missed big on that one.

Don was advocating for just about everyone...Tatum, Jackson, Fox, Smith, Markkanen, Ferguson and Giles.  In one post Don did advocate for Mitchell.  But after Kennard was selected, Don was happy with the Kennard pick.

In another post, Don also advocated for a PG to be drafted, but his first two PG selections were Fox and Smith.  Don did not want Ball or Fultz.


Good call for everyone who advocated for the Rubio for Jackson trade.  And now that you mention it, maybe it was Deus who was the biggest advocate for that trade.

Murph after the way Reggie Jackson played basketball after his comeback from his injury in that draft year any GM with above a 90 IQ should have insisted that the owner agree that a point guard would be the Pistons first round pick. That draft selection was not based on logic and reason. Other factors were involved such as the owner's impulse to ask AD what he was thinking or perhaps the owner thinking about Reggie Jackson's immovable contract. Nobody has any faith in the Pistons owner's ability, the front office ability or the Piston's coaching staff's ability to get things right.They have been zero for three for a long time.

I did advocate for the players you mentioned especially Markkanen because he fit SVG's offense with his deadly long range shooting ability and basketball IQ. I was against both Ball and Fultz because I watched them play a lot. Ball surprised me. Fultz in no way should have been the number one overall pick. He should have been at the bottom of the first round based on his play in the PAC12. He was never a play maker or even average defender. He is ball dominate like good old Reggie Jackson. Watch out maybe this owner and SVG will try to make a trade for Fultz. Bring in another low basketball IQ player into the fold. What is funny about your research here is that posters might be better at picking draft selections then highly paid alleged professionals that the Piston's owner hires. How much time do any of us spend on this stuff? This is recreation for us. For people like SVG and Bower and this owner who are the decision makers, it must be tough when they are criticized and know the criticism is just. I wonder how Joe Dumars can ever get the Darko pick out of his mind or for that matter selecting Rodney White after basing his decision over a phone call with Michael Jordan. Jordan must have had a good laugh after Joe Made that pick. No high school player White ever played with could stand being on his team. The same was true with his one season as a ball hog college player. I wonder what the interview was like between Joe and Rodney or for that matter when Joe went to Europe to interview Darko. Was Darko binge drinking and smoking cigs with Joe in Serbia that summer or were they at strip clubs? Dumars was a great player. I still cannot understand how his brain operated when he ran the Pistons front office. He did some good things though but still how in hell can anyone be so far off with those draft picks?

Watching the Philly-Boston series I couldn't take my eyes off of TJ MCConnell in the 2nd half. Philly's coach put McConnell in the game and sat Simmons. MCConnell is one smart basketball player in a small body. Still he bodied up against Boston's big men when his teammates were out of position. TJ is getting paid peanuts and the kind of point guard the Pistons could use. If only Reggie Jackson had the heart and basketball IQ of MCConnell our Pistons would be in much better shape.

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Post  cool breeze Fri May 04, 2018 11:26 am

WTF wrote:Kennard pick wasn't worse than Darko pick  facepalm  Some talking heads just need to STFU.   Nothing wrong with the pick but everything wrong with the coach that selected him.   Under a competent coach Kennard might have been ROY but not with this dum dum coaching him...

WTF we all like Kennard and with better point guards and a different offense Kennard would have had a better year like many young Piston players who play the 2 & 3. The issue with the selection of Kennard is the fact that at draft time Mitchell was a better athlete and played the point guard position. Michell was a no brainer for the Pistons. But politics played a big role in this draft pick selection for the Pistons. Reggie Jackson played like crap after returning from his injury in that draft year. Most of us thought his career was over. The Pistons only had Ish Smith as an option if Jackson returned playing like he did in that year. But Reggie Jackson had a massive contract the Pistons could not move. Andre Drummond loves Reggie Jackson and he has the ear of the owner who does nothing without consulting with AD. The other factor was the fact that SVG loved running that dysfunctional offense that he lost with in that draft year. SVG wanted more of it and who could do it better than Reggie Jackson. It doesn't matter that Reggie Jackson is the worst rated starting point guard in the league when it comes to playing defense. Against Washington who can the coach assign Reggie to guard when the selection is Wall or Beal? By the way which one of those players could Smith guard? The Pistons were a severely flawed team because they really had no point guard going into that draft. I consider both Jackson and Smith as 2 guards. They are not play makers who make others better. That is the one ingredient that any good point guard has to possess. Mitchell has the ability to make other teammates better. He can defend and either score or create good situations for teammates. The decision to draft Kennard was not based on logic and reason. Sure the team lost Pope but in SVG's offense, the 2 guard is a stand around type player who has little impact within the point guard dominate offense.

You are correct relating to two things you said. Kennard is a good player who will get better. He should in no way be considered with the Darko situation. Darko sucked. He was a young chain smoking Euro player who had never been a key player on any team he had played on in his entire life. Joe Dumars didn't do his homework. He based his selection on news hype and the opinion of idiots. He had the 2nd overall pick with Wade and Anthony available. As Prince said, if Dumars would have picked either player, the Pistons would have won at least 2 more championships. I believe SVG and Bower do a better job in drafting than Joe Dumars but only slightly better. And you are right again relating to what happens to young draftees when they become Pistons under SVG and his inept coaching staff. They never develop because they get the message early on in training camp. This team belongs to Reggie Jackson and Andre Drummond. You keep your mouth shut and stand in the corner and maybe Reggie will throw you a bone occasionally. This is a dumb team with a dumb coaching staff, dumb team leaders and a dumb owner when it comes to basketball. They are all smart men in other areas of life perhaps. This just sucks for Piston fans. When looking at Anthony Davis, Horeford and Embid play basketball and the many point guard playing in the playoffs like the amazing Mitchell, who can feel good about the prospects of another year with this owner, front office, team leaders and coaching staff? They are all below average. I used to think that Tobias Harris would one day become an NBA All Star and team leader for the Pistons. Instead we have a warn out player with a $36M contract.

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Post  WTF Fri May 04, 2018 8:16 am

Kennard pick wasn't worse than Darko pick  facepalm  Some talking heads just need to STFU.   Nothing wrong with the pick but everything wrong with the coach that selected him.   Under a competent coach Kennard might have been ROY but not with this dum dum coaching him...
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Post  Oracle Thu May 03, 2018 10:17 pm

Yes Sparma, I was for Mitchell early and often, and I believe one other poster, but I can't remember who, so I can't say for sure if it was Don or not.

Murph, there was absolutely no way I saw what he has become. That Utah team was dead in the water, no chance for anything, and this rookie comes in and totally transforms them into a playoff team, and you sit there trying to figure out how these guys can be this good looking at what he's working with.

He isn't doing it totally alone, the coach(like Stevens, doing it with mirrors Smile ) deserves a lot of credit because they're moving the ball and playing very good defense. What Mitchell is doing is nothing short of miraculous, IMO!

BTW, there were questions about Mitchell, he wasn't a lock, his 3 point shooting was suspect, his size was another, but only if you believed he couldn't be converted to a PG. I fully believed he could, as did college people that knew him, but you can't fault people that didn't.

So passing on him wasn't SVG's sin, as the article stated, the sin was in the thinking, and that thinking was coach driven, not the future of the organization, which is why the two positions are hard to be combined.

Still, when you couple that miss with whiffing on Booker(that miss was more understandable), at some point you have to question judgement. But the 63 million on one total slug and one partial scrub, is a fireable offense, IMO.
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Post  Oracle Thu May 03, 2018 10:00 pm

I wasn't saying we need a Barry Sanders, I was saying the exact opposite, we just need good RB's, but it doesn't make any difference.

The key part that you missed was in blue, we don't have a running game because we don't have a running offensive line, and that's made even more obvious by your response.

If they're loading up the secondary, it should be easy for even an average offensive line to open up holes, but the can't even do that!
WTF wrote:
Oracle wrote:A couple of things jump right at me!

1. The theory is that we need a running game.  I don't follow this line of thinking unless you're saying we need a super star running back, like a Barry Sanders that can carry the team by himself, and we aren't going to get that back here any time soon. The fact is that a running back is NOT the problem.

The Lions offense is designed to do one thing... Pass protect so that Stafford can have time to dissect the defense. Run blocking is an after thought, and until and unless that changes, runners can't run if there are no holes opened. So yes, we can upgrade our running game, but it likely won't help until the offensive line focus is altered.

2. The schedule is tough. Yes it is... so what! If you want to be the best, you have to play and beat the best. Good teams don't fear the schedule, they look at as a challenge, and if that's not how the Lions view things, then they need to be in another business.

I wouldn't call it a theory because we definitely need a run game.  I don't think it simply tied to just needing a great back because I think we need a run scheme as well.  There need to be an creative balance to the run and pass game we don't really need another Barry but we need a workhorse back there on 3rd and short that can get those critical 1st downs.

It's almost like the opposite of Barry with Stafford where teams load up the secondary and dare him to beat them because they know we're not running, with Barry they stacked the line with 8 and 9 defenders because we didn't have a strong passing game more time than not.  IMO Stafford has come a long way not to have a complimenting run attack.
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