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FORUM - Page 7 Empty Sparma and Don

Post  WTF Fri May 25, 2018 2:13 pm

cool breeze wrote:WTF good job on this post. Why do I beat a dead horse relating to AD's value or lack of value to this Piston team? Why don't I let it go and instead maybe attack a guy on his rookie contract like SJ? First off i see SJ as a smart high IQ basketball player who just can't hit jump shots yet at a good enough percentage. Also, SJ doesn't make very much money compared to AD and RJ the two players I want off this Piston team as soon as possible. Finally, I do not believe SJ will be around for long relating to playing with the Pistons long term. This team has a payroll problem with a roster full of holes.

No Don just beat both horses equally that all most are asking on this forum.  No SJ is making the insane money of Drummond but that does buy him a free ticket to not be equally criticized.   First he's a lottery pick that's currently not living up to expectation especially in comparison to similar lottery  picks over the past 3 seasons so SJ doesn't get a free pass.   Maybe he should have been a 2nd round pick or an undrafted rookie instead of a lottery pick then perhaps all these excuses you offer up for him would carry more weight.   

Also just because no one else is beating the same drum on trading Drummond doesn't mean we wouldn't.  I think most of us said if the right deal came along and it was good for the team we would have no problem with trading him. 


Sparma wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong, and at 60 I may well be, but I don't think I've ever said that Drummond is a great center. I do think he's undeniably great as an offensive rebounder, and pretty clearly as a rebounder in general. But bear in mind that I've repeatedly said that his game is seriously flawed. That's why I hope I've never uttered as a general statement: Drummond's a great center.

Sparma if not directly than indirectly perhaps you have called him a great center or I could just be coming to this conclusion based on comments that he's better than both Ben and Bill who were great centers.  I don't think many of us here underrate Drummond with the exception of Don,  I think I've rated him honestly and that my criticism of him is fair and accurate.   It's okay if you see a future HOF as it is okay that I see players 2 years behind still in his development mostly on the mental aspect on his game.   Just think it's too early to put HOF and Drummond in the same sentence when he has as many flaws in his game and his team is losing.   

Like I said those rebounding stats look really awesome and mean much more if they lead to W's.
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FORUM - Page 7 Empty What is the biggest thing wrong with the Detroit Pistons? Answer is Tom Gores who doesn't respect the old fan base

Post  cool breeze Fri May 25, 2018 2:07 pm

Isiah Thomas stated that he would love to be actively involved with the Detroit Pistons. One poster found an obscure comment by Thomas after SVG was fired. Who is the biggest Piston hero of all time? Who is one of the smartest analysts on NBA TV? Charles Barkley and Shaq have stated that the Piston owner needs to hire Zeke. The community of Detroit would rally around the thought of Isiah Thomas returning to lead the Piston organization. If all this is true then why is this owner acting like he has ownership in the Clippers instead of the Pistons? Who does Tom Gores listen to? It can't be Piston fans or people who live or have lived in the Detroit community where he returned the Pistons to play? Why is it that the owner, Tom Gores, does not relate to Piston fans and ignores the old tradition that had previously made the Pistons great? His team might just as well where the Teal uniforms.Maybe he remembers the Pistons when they wore those uniforms. The fans never accepted those uniforms. The people of Detroit and the suburbs do not relate or understand this owner or what he stands for as to what kind of team he wants put on the floor from year to year. Fans can blame SVG and the people he hired but something is really wrong with this owner. It was a big mistake to sell the team to him. What if the current owner of Cleveland had bought the Detroit Pistons instead of Cleveland? There is no doubt in my mind that he would have bent over backwards to hire Zeke in whatever job Zeke wanted. Cleveland's owner is a man from Michigan like Mr. Gores but is a true sports guy not an entertainment guy who bought the Pistons for an investment. AD loves the fact that RJ is the starting point guard. The objective for our Piston's owner is not to win but to keep Andre Drummond happy. He will hire the right people to accomplish that goal.

I know that the first thing Isiah Thomas would do if he could make roster decisions or coach the team would be to change the roster as soon as possible to secure winning type players and create a more favorable financial situation relating to excessive pay for underachieving players. None of you would be reading my posts about AD because he would not be playing for Detroit. Nobody would be complaining about RJ either because he wouldn't be on the team. The owner knows that about Zeke. Zeke would do the right thing to make the team better and not worry about any personal relationship the owner might have with one player. He would change the roster so the team could have a chance of winning again even if it takes 5 years to do it.

Tom Gores is looking hard for YES men. He will hire Dwane Casey who I thought did a poor job coaching Toronto in the playoffs this year. Then the owner will hire a new GM to not act rather than act. the strategy will be to make minor trades. I would prefer the woman candidate who could get away with getting on the asses of the under achievers if they can't be traded. If Zeke has been ex communicated from the Pistons organization by this owner then the people of Detroit might be amused watching the first female head coach do her thing.

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FORUM - Page 7 Empty Casey

Post  Murph Fri May 25, 2018 1:48 pm

As long as the Pistons are not going to hire Zeke, C-Bill, Laimbeer, Mahorn, etc, I think Dwane Casey is a good choice. He could never get the Raptors to the next level, but realistically speaking, the Raptors probably never had the personnel to beat Lebron and the Cavs.

If we can't have a former Piston as coach, Casey is probably the next best thing. He took over a dreadful Raptors team, and took them to the playoffs 5 years in a row.


I don't want Stanley Johnson off the roster. But I would like to see him come off the bench as a defensive specialist. I think the Pistons should use him the way they used Rodman in their first Championship run, by bringing him off the bench for Aguirre. The Pistons should start Bullock at SF, and bring Johnson off the bench to guard the opposing team's best wing player.

However, Johnson simple must stop shooting 3 pointers, and really, he should stop shooting beyond about 12 feet out. SJ needs to score all of his points on offensive rebounds or by slashing to the basket for dunks and layups.


Don...I don't know how or why it happens, but opposing teams have trouble scoring when Drummond is in the game. You know way more about basketball than I do, so maybe you can explain it to me.

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FORUM - Page 7 Empty I hope that I never called Drummond a great center, even though I think he's got a solid shot at the HoF

Post  Sparma Fri May 25, 2018 1:32 pm

WTF: "I no more believe he's as great as others make him out to be ...."

Correct me if I'm wrong, and at 60 I may well be, but I don't think I've ever said that Drummond is a great center.  

But I have repeatedly said that he may well make it to the HoF, if he does certain things that look within reach: be a top career rebounder, go to the All Star game 5 or 6 times, and experience good team success.

So what gives?

First, a weird but important distinction: you can be in the HoF without being a great player.   I'm far more familiar with baseball's HoF than basketball's.  Rabbit Maranville and Wilbert Robinson are two example of being in the HoF without being great.  In speaking of the HoF, I'm mainly trying to imitate Bill James's (baseball) project of trying to figure out who might make it without necessarily endorsing what I thing would happen.

Secondly, I do think he's undeniably great as an offensive rebounder, and pretty clearly as a rebounder in general.  But bear in mind that I've repeatedly said that his game is seriously flawed.  That's why I hope I've never uttered as a general statement: Drummond's a great center. I do think that AD gets underrated, so I've probably gone overboard in underlining his positive qualities, one or two of which I do regard as "great."

Thirdly, he's had great games. This sounds a bit awkward, but you could say: he played like a great center today, when he scores 30 and bounds 23. I do think I've said things like: he played like a HoF center tonight. That's not the same as the generalization that he's a great center.

Fourthly, at 24, with a season of serious improvement under his belt, I think AD still has a chance to become a great center, and to make it to the HoF as a great center.  He's got a ways to go though.


Last edited by Sparma on Fri May 25, 2018 1:53 pm; edited 1 time in total
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FORUM - Page 7 Empty Re: FORUM

Post  cool breeze Fri May 25, 2018 1:14 pm

WTF wrote:
cool breeze wrote:And please WTF don't worry about sounding like me. Wouldn't that be awful. How could you stand yourself. In fact you keep pointing out the same things that I do.


Don while we both recognize the same issues with AD I don't beat it like a dead horse.  I'm not dedicating 10 paragraphs on a daily to point out Drummonds short-comings.   Truth is that most of the other poster to some degree happen to agree with some of your assessments but they're not wanting to hear the same thing over and over.   It really doesn't require 10 paragraphs to say that Drummond doesn't so a winning mentality.

Most of my comments and rebuttals concerning Drummond is in response to the overkill that flows in both direction but I do think a lot of is push back on your constant bashing of him.  I no more believe he's as great as others make him out to be than I believe he's as bad as you portray him to be.  I have no issue the things I say about him.  

1.  No one can convince me he's of HOF material, Drummond would have to prove that to me by leading this team to a title until then he's just another piece on the team.

2. No one can convince be he's as good as Bill or Ben numbers be damn because stats are meaningless when you're a loser and as of today that what he and this team are.

3. He's grossly overpaid for what the team is getting return from him, but until Blake proves it so is he overpaid as well and you can include Reggie and Jon ass too.  

4.  I never really view Drummond as a starter and not sure if I ever really will,  but I do see him as a solid piece on a winning team.  How sweet would in be if we had Cousin and he was backing Cousin up.  That was my hope when Moose and Smith was here.

5. I don't know if he's deliberately padding rebounding stats but as I said meaningless when you can only win 39 games in a season. 

6. I see Drummond as underachieving but you Don see's him as a scrub player and has referred to him as every form of turd you can come up with to call him.  10 paragraphs long, 8 times a day, every single day.   I'm not screaming to trade him don't think I ever had and not say I wouldn't in the future if he keep lacking in the effort dept.

7. Don you don't bash SJ and you be bashing him but some how you find every excuse in the world to defend him.  I'll say this just like I use to say about KCP his defense ain't that great to make up for his crappy offense.  SJ looks more like Michael Curry than a Dennis Rodman and truth be told I hated we drafted his ass but I don't bash him every day in 10 paragraph posts.  

Don I think what every would like is for you to give it a rest it only a handful of posters on the forum and we all heard it and understand how you feel about AD.

WTF good job on this post. Why do I beat a dead horse relating to AD's value or lack of value to this Piston team? Why don't I let it go and instead maybe attack a guy on his rookie contract like SJ? First off i see SJ as a smart high IQ basketball player who just can't hit jump shots yet at a good enough percentage. Also, SJ doesn't make very much money compared to AD and RJ the two players I want off this Piston team as soon as possible. Finally, I do not believe SJ will be around for long relating to playing with the Pistons long term. This team has a payroll problem with a roster full of holes.

If I cannot convince posters of the need to attempt to trade Andre Drummond before the draft this summer or on draft night, then for sure there is no way Tom Gores will ever do it. My complaint relating to the lack of success with the Pistons is that this owner formed a personal attachment with one player, Andre Drummond so any time SVG or his GM had trade opportunities involving Drummond, Mr. Gores said no. So if the owner reads any posts from this forum he can rest easy with the status quo. For posters who watched every Piston game last season in disbelief like me, it will be time to curtail this insane activity and either watch another NBA team for a few years or just concentrate on high school and college basketball. It is not fun to watch Andre Drummond play basketball. It is not fun to watch Reggie Jackson play basketball. There is no chance of trading Reggie Jackson. No GM likes his selfish style and slacking style of defense or his contract. But there is one player on this team that could possibly get a positive return for the Pistons. His name is Andre Drummond. Any smart GM would know that the Piston roster is not good enough to win a championship. Most likely AD will sign with another team after his Piston contract expires. The Pistons are destined to rebuild sooner or later. So why not now instead of waiting and getting nothing for AD?

Maybe my posts are too long but they are full of details that need to be said. Otherwise posters who have faulty arguments will keep posting about meaningless stats. Stats do not win games. Players who are smart and talented win games. If any of you have played organized basketball and have been in big games for a championship, then you know that basketball is a team game where the winner always has players who do the little things like making extra effort for the entire game to touch loose balls. Tip the basketball you can't secure to a teammate. Dig down deep to work your feet to stop dribble penetration, help a teammate with a hit and switch etc. We see it with all the teams in the playoffs. There are some posters who do not believe that the owner decided who the team leaders would be for the Pistons two seasons ago and was miffed when Morris called for that players only meeting along with Johnson. Players were sick and tired of playing for the Pistons because of those two designated leaders who were never leaders who have ever played the right way. It seems that fans have a very short memory of that season where AD pouted for the rest of the season after that players only meeting. Tobias Harris lost his spirit. Johnson lost his spirit. Morris lost his spirit. Meanwhile, AD danced in pre game. Last season Tolliver arrived to help right the ship some. But AD and RJ were still considered the leaders at least until Blake Griffin arrived. What happens within a team determines who they will be not the coach. The coach can help willing players. But the heart of the team is determined by the key players. We have RJ and AD. One of those players has high trade value I think. Maybe I am wrong but I think there would be one or two teams that might bite on a possible trade involving AD. But posters won't have it. Too much negative comments have been made my me it seems. So don't start crying when the Pistons suck again as AD shoots more rather than less. Don't cry when AD gets a rebound and throws it to an opponent instead of the outlet man. Don't cry when AD fails to get back quick enough to protect the paint in the first quarter. Why would I stop reminding Piston fans of what all of us saw who bothered to watch. Too many posters don't actually watch games but get off posting their nonsense.

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FORUM - Page 7 Empty You're Either Blind or You Simply Trying Not To See

Post  WTF Fri May 25, 2018 11:44 am

cool breeze wrote:And please WTF don't worry about sounding like me. Wouldn't that be awful. How could you stand yourself. In fact you keep pointing out the same things that I do.


Don while we both recognize the same issues with AD I don't beat it like a dead horse.  I'm not dedicating 10 paragraphs on a daily to point out Drummonds short-comings.   Truth is that most of the other poster to some degree happen to agree with some of your assessments but they're not wanting to hear the same thing over and over.   It really doesn't require 10 paragraphs to say that Drummond doesn't so a winning mentality.

Most of my comments and rebuttals concerning Drummond is in response to the overkill that flows in both direction but I do think a lot of is push back on your constant bashing of him.  I no more believe he's as great as others make him out to be than I believe he's as bad as you portray him to be.  I have no issue the things I say about him.  

1.  No one can convince me he's of HOF material, Drummond would have to prove that to me by leading this team to a title until then he's just another piece on the team.

2. No one can convince be he's as good as Bill or Ben numbers be damn because stats are meaningless when you're a loser and as of today that what he and this team are.

3. He's grossly overpaid for what the team is getting return from him, but until Blake proves it so is he overpaid as well and you can include Reggie and Jon ass too.  

4.  I never really view Drummond as a starter and not sure if I ever really will,  but I do see him as a solid piece on a winning team.  How sweet would in be if we had Cousin and he was backing Cousin up.  That was my hope when Moose and Smith was here.

5. I don't know if he's deliberately padding rebounding stats but as I said meaningless when you can only win 39 games in a season. 

6. I see Drummond as underachieving but you Don see's him as a scrub player and has referred to him as every form of turd you can come up with to call him.  10 paragraphs long, 8 times a day, every single day.   I'm not screaming to trade him don't think I ever had and not say I wouldn't in the future if he keep lacking in the effort dept.

7. Don you don't bash SJ and you be bashing him but some how you find every excuse in the world to defend him.  I'll say this just like I use to say about KCP his defense ain't that great to make up for his crappy offense.  SJ looks more like Michael Curry than a Dennis Rodman and truth be told I hated we drafted his ass but I don't bash him every day in 10 paragraph posts.  

Don I think what every would like is for you to give it a rest it only a handful of posters on the forum and we all heard it and understand how you feel about AD.
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FORUM - Page 7 Empty Bringing up the most logical solution to making the Pistons a better team irritates some Piston posters

Post  cool breeze Fri May 25, 2018 9:33 am

I have always said that Andre Drummond is a nice man. Murph and others it appears believe if a fan points out basic defects in a player, then he is a hater. This is an argument of intimidation used by people who hate using logic and reason to analyze history or facts. I do not believe AD provides enough positives if he stays compared to what it could mean to the team if he goes in a trade. I try to bring up facts about how AD plays the game but that doesn't connect with some because either then don't see what is going on in games they watch or they really don't bother watching the games and just post and look at stats. Nobody can come to any logical conclusions if they don't watch or know how to break down what is going on that is causing teams to lose. Is AD worth up to 25 or 26 million dollars a year? Does he have a history of being on winning teams? Can he hold his own against good centers in big games? Is he coachable? Will he ever screen out board crashers? Did he box out Whiteside in Detroit's biggest game against Miami two seasons ago at the end of the game? Does he like playing defense?

Be careful what you wish for Murph. You are not on board as a Andre Drummond lover or a core player the Pistons can not do without. I say this tongue and cheek because of the way to attack me like a small child at times. I do want AD off the team and I want him off because he is not a winning type player. He has a low basketball IQ and concentration ability and that is why he makes so many mental mistakes that cost his team wins. But he does get stats and because of that, AD could bring the Pistons a smart skill player perhaps at point guard, shooting guard or small forward.

And please WTF don't worry about sounding like me. Wouldn't that be awful. How could you stand yourself. In fact you keep pointing out the same things that I do. Of course Murph does't believe what SVG himself once said about his big un coachable center. Andre Drummond needs to be more engaged. And of course he doesn't believe that AD never called the owner to complain about how he didn't want to have that shooting coach around in practice or a host of things. And of course nothing negative went on in the players only meeting about AD who faked the entire last half of the season two years ago. You have your hero. AD is your guy. AD should be traded to help the rebuild. That won't happen because of his relationship with the owner. Murph and others have the need to protect this jolly kind center maybe because they like who he is as a person. Isn't that sweet? Who cares about the team anyway. This basketball team is terrible. The dysfunction has a lot to do with AD and his insistence on lack of interest in becoming an elite defender. Murph again is OK with that because just look at the stats. And don't forget AD was asked to be a fill in at the All star game. And just look at how hard AD is working at his step back jumper. Murph must be being paid money to write on this forum either by Mr. Gores or AD's agent. I know there are others who actually watch Piston games who would logically agree that the best chance of Detroit getting better would be to make a major trade involving AD. He is the only player who could bring the Pistons something.

News flash. Stanley Johnson is long gone. He will either be traded or play out his contract. He will have a fine career on another team with fans who like the fact that he plays defense and is a team orientated player. The Pistons have their guys in AD, RJ, BG, JL, and L. Galloway. That is where the owner has placed his money. No money for Johnson. So why do some posters still rant on Johnson like I rant on AD? Just don't get the logic. Johnson is long gone I believe. I remember the days of Brandon Knight and how posters blamed everything on Knight who was on his rookie contract the same as Johnson. Meanwhile, he couldn't run a pick and roll play with Moose or the Pistons pint sized power forward, Maxiell. Moose got those amazing stats like AD. Monroe was loved by the same Piston posters who love AD. Maybe some of you posters were former big men who just love big men who are not engaged on defense. God bless you all though.

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FORUM - Page 7 Empty Murph I Understand

Post  WTF Fri May 25, 2018 8:27 am

Murph wrote:Wise...see, this is exactly what I'm talking about.  Not one single poster (except Don) mentioned anything about Drummond in their posts yesterday.  

I brought up George Yardley as perhaps one of the few players from the 1950's, who might be able to play in today's NBA.  Yardley was 6'5, 190 lbs and could shoot and rebound, which would probably have made him a valuable asset in today's NBA.

Yet Don somehow takes the mention of Yardley and turns it into a rant against Drummond.  Don is absolutely deranged.  Drummond is not the highest paid player, nor the most experienced, nor does he present himself as the team leader.  He does happen to be our only current All Star, our best player, and he puts up outstanding numbers.  Drummond is not a disruptive force on the team; he gets along with the owner, his coaches and his teammates.  As far as I can tell, Don hates Drummond because he's a nice guy.  

Don's Drummond Derangement Syndrome is seriously damaging his credibility as a poster on this forum.

Don does seem to have a stick up his arse when it comes to Drummond and the criticism is a bit of an overkill.   I hope I don't come off as Don of does with my criticism of AD.   I just think he's underachieving IMO even though his numbers are good he could be a lot more consistent with his game and more engaged.  Also my debating rather he's as good as Bill and Ben is not saying he a bad player I just honestly don't think he's as good as Bill and Ben or maybe I should say not as dedicated and committed instead to winning which I do think matters in assessing players.

Don picks his pony every season (SJ) and then he picks victim which happens to be AD.  It's nothing new or revealing about what he say's about AD it's just redundant.  He repeats it as if he's talking to a new group of posters every other day that hasn't heard his rant before.   I think we all recognize the flaws in AD game but he's not a reason were losing but he's not a reason we're winning if that makes any sense.  

Hopefully he'll stop with the drum beating against Drummond and attacks the player he should be which is SJ who's not living up being an 8th overall pick 3 seasons ago.
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FORUM - Page 7 Empty Drummond Derangement Syndrome on Full Display

Post  Murph Fri May 25, 2018 8:04 am

Wise...see, this is exactly what I'm talking about.  Not one single poster (except Don) mentioned anything about Drummond in their posts yesterday.  

I brought up George Yardley as perhaps one of the few players from the 1950's, who might be able to play in today's NBA.  Yardley was 6'5, 190 lbs and could shoot and rebound, which would probably have made him a valuable asset in today's NBA.

Yet Don somehow takes the mention of Yardley and turns it into a rant against Drummond.  Don is absolutely deranged.  Drummond is not the highest paid player, nor the most experienced, nor does he present himself as the team leader.  He does happen to be our only current All Star, our best player, and he puts up outstanding numbers.  Drummond is not a disruptive force on the team; he gets along with the owner, his coaches and his teammates.  As far as I can tell, Don hates Drummond because he's a nice guy.  

Don's Drummond Derangement Syndrome is beginning to damage his credibility as a poster on this forum.


You know what I think sticks in Don's craw the most?  I've never even played basketball, except in a few pick-up games over the years.  Yet I can look at a stat sheet and see that Avery Bradley sucks, or Stanley Johnson sucks, or that Andre Drummond is something special.  Don, who has played the game at a very high level since he was 6 years old gets all of that wrong, because he's blinded by his biases.

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Post  Sparma Thu May 24, 2018 11:57 pm

With Ed Stefanski on board and Dwayne Casey ahead who could deny a brighter tomorrow?

Seriously: with this roster I can't see them getting much worse. Only one way moving forward (until we hit 45 wins, then the going might get tough).

BallinD wrote:@Sparma: Watching the playoffs has me itching for some real Pistons basketball.  I keep wondering who on our team could compete at that level.  Only Blake, from what I can see.  Maybe Dre and Weggie if he is healthy.  Luke is a few years off, but maybe he would play better with more usage.  Keep hope alive.

Sparma wrote:I end the bigger, faster, stronger with a period, in the hope that we can agree to that much.  But that hardly settles everything, I agree.   I add "And more skilled?"  Part of the answer to that question strikes me as being beyond dispute too, when you look at 3pt% percentages, where Curry's leading an evolution of the game. Still, that leaves a lot of room for debate.  But care is needed with the appeal to smarts, heart, and leadership; I gather that 175 pounder Lombardi had all of that in spades (along with football IQ).  But, the presence of those qualities notwithstanding, Vince would have needed more of the bigger faster stronger to compete with Bubba three decades hence.  Jerry Kramer had plenty of the kind of qualities you describe too, he too would need added physical measurables to compete today.  Bigger, faster, stronger aren't exactly necessary conditions for excellence, but in the ordinary case they make a significant difference.  Sounds like we'd agree that they're not sufficient conditions for contemporary excellence.


BallinD wrote:Interesting discussion.  I'd like to jump in, just because I usually resist absolutes and find black and white too monochromatic.  So I say that to say that I'm not gonna write a book, and I'm not sure a book could illustrate that there is more to this than right or wrong.

What could trump Bigger, Faster, Stronger?  Well, more skilled could do it. As Dre matures, his skills are also improving, but is he at the level of Laimbeer, and a winner?  I think not. Smarter, More Heart, More BBIQ and More Leadership could trump it, I believe.  We need look no further than our recent Pistons History to the Tony Mitchells, the Rodney Stuckeys, the long-limbed, but defensive liability and clueless floor general Weggie Jackson and so it goes.  Bigger, stronger, faster anyone?

I really think it is pointless to argue this as constituted, because Steph Curry is not Bigger, Faster, nor Stronger, But Westbrook is.  Who would you rather have lead your team?  It is debatable, right? It is not cut-and-dried at all.  Not at all! And for the record, I would take Zeke in his prime with his Big Heart and LEADERSHIP over Curry in his prime and Westbrook in his prime, if I wanted to Win Games.  The same holds true for Laims vs Drummond.

BTW, none of our Championships were won because we were Bigger, Faster, Stronger.  Just Saying.  Actually, this bodes well for the Luke Kennards, Blake Griffins and Reggie Bullocks.


Sparma wrote:Good exchange about Laimbeer and Drummond.   I'm tempted to write a book in response, but I think we know about where we all stand.

Bill just turned 61, while Andre's 24.  That's 37 years (36 most of the year, once Dre turns 25 in August).  For what it's worth, I'm a few months younger than Bill.

If 24 y.o. Bill'd shown up to training camp in 2017, I'd have had to put AD and Boban ahead of him, probably giving him the nod over Moreland for the 3rd C position.   I realize that it sounds outrageous for me to question whether Laimbeer of old would make an NBA roster today.   I think there's some bias in the reaction though, because he's part of a favorite generation (with guys around my age, as may be true for others on the forum), one that brought a couple of 'ships to town.   But I doubt anyone would blink if I questioned whether any of the Fort Wayne Pistons would make it on to an NBA roster.  And who thinks that Margaret Court, with all her decorations, could play with Serena, or Rod Laver with Federer?  Or that one of the fabled Fordham's blocks of granite -- OLineman Vince Lombardi at 175 lbs -- would have a chance against MSU's Bubba Smith some thirty years later.  Maybe we see some parallel between George Mikan's game and Moses Malone's, but I doubt many of us would state it as Mikan = Malone, being aware of the fantastic evolution of the game.

Maybe Laimbeer would have been the exception, the guy who's game would translate decades later (I happen to think that Wilt and Kareem would still excel as they were).  Again, these what if counterfactuals are difficult to adjudicate.

We do have some factual evidence that pertains to the evolution of athletes across time.  I read an article about the decade by decade increase in size of NFL linemen.  Maybe there's some Lion's OLineman 37 years ago who could have hung with the contemporary Lions, but the statistical measurements, combined with the laws of physics, suggest how difficult that would be.

And it's not just bigger.  Maybe there's an occasional Duckworth who's oversized for his era (and I loved watching Laimbeer take him apart in the finals), but was he also as strong, as fast, as the contemporary guys?  Very doubtful.

I'm too lazy now to compare 2016 Olympic results with those of 1980, but the evidence for faster, stronger could readily be gathered (again with exceptions).

I would have thought we could all agree to the bigger, faster, stronger part.

The tougher part has to do with skills.  Have NBA players not only gotten bigger, faster, stronger but also more skilled?   I think so, although I do see Laimbeer as the more skilled player than Drummond, eg, in defensive positioning.

Part of Laimbeer's value, also against Duckworth, lay in his being able to shoot well enough to force his guy to cover him outside, away from the basket.   In that way, he was part of a revolution.  But was Bill a good outside shooter by contemporary standards?   As I remember the NBA average from 3 was 36/ 37 % this year.  For his career Bill shot 32.6% from 3, a tad closer to the much maligned Stanley J's career percentage than to the league average.   And I've mentioned Isiah's shooting % as being similar to Ish's.   That's nothing against those guys, until we start claiming what they'd do -- as they were -- in today's NBA.  Skills may have regressed in some ways, but in important ways they've demonstrably advanced.

I don't think Andre would suddenly be defensively polished if he were placed 36, 37 years back.  But yes, I'd expect a lot more shoving, grabbing, and arms checking from him.   Because so much of that stuff would be called as a foul now; back then, I don't doubt he'd try to get away with a lot more, just as the Pistons of yore did, knowing they could.

Murph wrote:My guess as to who past Pistons center might best resemble in today's NBA based on their stats, size and style of play:

Bob Lanier =  DeMarcus Cousins (without the attitude)

Bill Laimbeer = Marc Gasol

Ben Wallace = Clint Capela

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Post  BallinD Thu May 24, 2018 11:43 pm

@Sparma: Watching the playoffs has me itching for some real Pistons basketball.  I keep wondering who on our team could compete at that level.  Only Blake, from what I can see.  Maybe Dre and Weggie if he is healthy.  Luke is a few years off, but maybe he would play better with more usage. Keep hope alive.

Sparma wrote:I end the bigger, faster, stronger with a period, in the hope that we can agree to that much.  But that hardly settles everything, I agree.   I add "And more skilled?"  Part of the answer to that question strikes me as being beyond dispute too, when you look at 3pt% percentages, where Curry's leading an evolution of the game. Still, that leaves a lot of room for debate.  But care is needed with the appeal to smarts, heart, and leadership; I gather that 175 pounder Lombardi had all of that in spades (along with football IQ).  But, the presence of those qualities notwithstanding, Vince would have needed more of the bigger faster stronger to compete with Bubba three decades hence.  Jerry Kramer had plenty of the kind of qualities you describe too, he too would need added physical measurables to compete today.  Bigger, faster, stronger aren't exactly necessary conditions for excellence, but in the ordinary case they make a significant difference.  Sounds like we'd agree that they're not sufficient conditions for contemporary excellence.


BallinD wrote:Interesting discussion.  I'd like to jump in, just because I usually resist absolutes and find black and white too monochromatic.  So I say that to say that I'm not gonna write a book, and I'm not sure a book could illustrate that there is more to this than right or wrong.

What could trump Bigger, Faster, Stronger?  Well, more skilled could do it. As Dre matures, his skills are also improving, but is he at the level of Laimbeer, and a winner?  I think not. Smarter, More Heart, More BBIQ and More Leadership could trump it, I believe.  We need look no further than our recent Pistons History to the Tony Mitchells, the Rodney Stuckeys, the long-limbed, but defensive liability and clueless floor general Weggie Jackson and so it goes.  Bigger, stronger, faster anyone?

I really think it is pointless to argue this as constituted, because Steph Curry is not Bigger, Faster, nor Stronger, But Westbrook is.  Who would you rather have lead your team?  It is debatable, right? It is not cut-and-dried at all.  Not at all! And for the record, I would take Zeke in his prime with his Big Heart and LEADERSHIP over Curry in his prime and Westbrook in his prime, if I wanted to Win Games.  The same holds true for Laims vs Drummond.

BTW, none of our Championships were won because we were Bigger, Faster, Stronger.  Just Saying.  Actually, this bodes well for the Luke Kennards, Blake Griffins and Reggie Bullocks.


Sparma wrote:Good exchange about Laimbeer and Drummond.   I'm tempted to write a book in response, but I think we know about where we all stand.

Bill just turned 61, while Andre's 24.  That's 37 years (36 most of the year, once Dre turns 25 in August).  For what it's worth, I'm a few months younger than Bill.

If 24 y.o. Bill'd shown up to training camp in 2017, I'd have had to put AD and Boban ahead of him, probably giving him the nod over Moreland for the 3rd C position.   I realize that it sounds outrageous for me to question whether Laimbeer of old would make an NBA roster today.   I think there's some bias in the reaction though, because he's part of a favorite generation (with guys around my age, as may be true for others on the forum), one that brought a couple of 'ships to town.   But I doubt anyone would blink if I questioned whether any of the Fort Wayne Pistons would make it on to an NBA roster.  And who thinks that Margaret Court, with all her decorations, could play with Serena, or Rod Laver with Federer?  Or that one of the fabled Fordham's blocks of granite -- OLineman Vince Lombardi at 175 lbs -- would have a chance against MSU's Bubba Smith some thirty years later.  Maybe we see some parallel between George Mikan's game and Moses Malone's, but I doubt many of us would state it as Mikan = Malone, being aware of the fantastic evolution of the game.

Maybe Laimbeer would have been the exception, the guy who's game would translate decades later (I happen to think that Wilt and Kareem would still excel as they were).  Again, these what if counterfactuals are difficult to adjudicate.

We do have some factual evidence that pertains to the evolution of athletes across time.  I read an article about the decade by decade increase in size of NFL linemen.  Maybe there's some Lion's OLineman 37 years ago who could have hung with the contemporary Lions, but the statistical measurements, combined with the laws of physics, suggest how difficult that would be.

And it's not just bigger.  Maybe there's an occasional Duckworth who's oversized for his era (and I loved watching Laimbeer take him apart in the finals), but was he also as strong, as fast, as the contemporary guys?  Very doubtful.

I'm too lazy now to compare 2016 Olympic results with those of 1980, but the evidence for faster, stronger could readily be gathered (again with exceptions).

I would have thought we could all agree to the bigger, faster, stronger part.

The tougher part has to do with skills.  Have NBA players not only gotten bigger, faster, stronger but also more skilled?   I think so, although I do see Laimbeer as the more skilled player than Drummond, eg, in defensive positioning.

Part of Laimbeer's value, also against Duckworth, lay in his being able to shoot well enough to force his guy to cover him outside, away from the basket.   In that way, he was part of a revolution.  But was Bill a good outside shooter by contemporary standards?   As I remember the NBA average from 3 was 36/ 37 % this year.  For his career Bill shot 32.6% from 3, a tad closer to the much maligned Stanley J's career percentage than to the league average.   And I've mentioned Isiah's shooting % as being similar to Ish's.   That's nothing against those guys, until we start claiming what they'd do -- as they were -- in today's NBA.  Skills may have regressed in some ways, but in important ways they've demonstrably advanced.

I don't think Andre would suddenly be defensively polished if he were placed 36, 37 years back.  But yes, I'd expect a lot more shoving, grabbing, and arms checking from him.   Because so much of that stuff would be called as a foul now; back then, I don't doubt he'd try to get away with a lot more, just as the Pistons of yore did, knowing they could.

Murph wrote:My guess as to who past Pistons center might best resemble in today's NBA based on their stats, size and style of play:

Bob Lanier =  DeMarcus Cousins (without the attitude)

Bill Laimbeer = Marc Gasol

Ben Wallace = Clint Capela

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Post  WTF Thu May 24, 2018 10:51 pm


They are stupid this is not a fix to a problem because not standing really isn't a problem at all.  Every player in the league should take a knee the first week of the season.   Stop telling black players anyway to stand for this song that was never meant for them.  All 32 owners should have voted to stop playing the song.
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Post  cool breeze Thu May 24, 2018 7:45 pm

Sparma wrote:Sloppy on my part, because I'm been listening to Tall Tales which praises Yardley highly.  I was thinking that he'd come into the league in the mid-fifties, and had meant to include FW Pistons of the "early 50s" (the 37 year dif between AD and Bill takes us back to 1981, 37 years earlier to 1954).  Checking his records, I see that wouldn't have quite done it anyway because he came into the league in '53-54.  

Shue I think of as coach.

Could Yardley have excelled on 1989 Pistons?  [At least, the flat denial would cause people to blink.]

Murph wrote:"But I doubt anyone would blink if I questioned whether any of the Fort Wayne Pistons would make it on to an NBA roster."

Sparma...what about George Yardley or Gene Shue?

George Yardley was a fantastic basketball player. My Dad used to show my older brother and myself Piston games on the old reel to reel film. There were fewer teams so they played each other a lot and beat the hell out of each other as the rules were completely different. Yardley could shoot from anywhere with success. Yardley was always fully "engaged"

AD will not ever live that comment SVG made about AD's lazy ass antics after the Miami loss. But to me even though SVG was trying to be politically correct with that statement it actually sounds worse to me than "slacker". Who can't get engaged for the few minutes players actually work when they make in excess of $20 mil? But fans love them. AD will be remembered much the same way as we remember Charlie V unless he completely changes his personality or drive to become a player his teammates can respect. He can do it but that would mean that he would have to lose 20-25 pounds and work on extreme conditioning along with 100s of hours working with a good big man coach who knows how to teach how big men should play defense in the NBA. But no worries, AD will shock everyone with that step back jumper to add to his arsenal of offensive weapons. Players should not expect many passes from AD next season. He will be right up there with is buddy Reggie Jackson to win the ball hog award. What if AD averaged 26 points a game next season? Wouldn't that be great. RJ and AD could compete for scoring average winner. The owner will need to come up with trophies to keep the fans excited as opponent fans watch their new first round draft picks.

In these dark days it is a good thing to bring up old Piston players like Yardley. He was exceptional as I remember him watching those films as a kid. Yardley was a tricky smart basketball player. Those kind of player are always fun to watch even in old black and white film after watching current players who are a dumb as a box of rocks when playing the game we all love. They would of course get a lot smarter really quick if there were no guaranteed contracts.

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Post  BallinD Thu May 24, 2018 5:52 pm

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Post  Sparma Thu May 24, 2018 5:46 pm

Sloppy on my part, because I'm been listening to Tall Tales which praises Yardley highly.  I was thinking that he'd come into the league in the mid-fifties, and had meant to include FW Pistons of the "early 50s" (the 37 year dif between AD and Bill takes us back to 1981, 37 years earlier to 1954).  Checking his records, I see that wouldn't have quite done it anyway because he came into the league in '53-54.  

Shue I think of as coach.

Could Yardley have excelled on 1989 Pistons?  [At least, the flat denial would cause people to blink.]

Murph wrote:"But I doubt anyone would blink if I questioned whether any of the Fort Wayne Pistons would make it on to an NBA roster."

Sparma...what about George Yardley or Gene Shue?


Last edited by Sparma on Thu May 24, 2018 6:06 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post  Sparma Thu May 24, 2018 5:37 pm

I end the bigger, faster, stronger with a period, in the hope that we can agree to that much. But that hardly settles everything, I agree. I add "And more skilled?" Part of the answer to that question strikes me as being beyond dispute too, when you look at 3pt% percentages, where Curry's leading an evolution of the game. Still, that leaves a lot of room for debate. But care is needed with the appeal to smarts, heart, and leadership; I gather that 175 pounder Lombardi had all of that in spades (along with football IQ). But, the presence of those qualities notwithstanding, Vince would have needed more of the bigger faster stronger to compete with Bubba three decades hence. Jerry Kramer had plenty of the kind of qualities you describe too, he too would need added physical measurables to compete today. Bigger, faster, stronger aren't exactly necessary conditions for excellence, but in the ordinary case they make a significant difference. Sounds like we'd agree that they're not sufficient conditions for contemporary excellence.


BallinD wrote:Interesting discussion.  I'd like to jump in, just because I usually resist absolutes and find black and white too monochromatic.  So I say that to say that I'm not gonna write a book, and I'm not sure a book could illustrate that there is more to this than right or wrong.

What could trump Bigger, Faster, Stronger?  Well, more skilled could do it. As Dre matures, his skills are also improving, but is he at the level of Laimbeer, and a winner?  I think not. Smarter, More Heart, More BBIQ and More Leadership could trump it, I believe.  We need look no further than our recent Pistons History to the Tony Mitchells, the Rodney Stuckeys, the long-limbed, but defensive liability and clueless floor general Weggie Jackson and so it goes.  Bigger, stronger, faster anyone?

I really think it is pointless to argue this as constituted, because Steph Curry is not Bigger, Faster, nor Stronger, But Westbrook is.  Who would you rather have lead your team?  It is debatable, right? It is not cut-and-dried at all.  Not at all! And for the record, I would take Zeke in his prime with his Big Heart and LEADERSHIP over Curry in his prime and Westbrook in his prime, if I wanted to Win Games.  The same holds true for Laims vs Drummond.

BTW, none of our Championships were won because we were Bigger, Faster, Stronger.  Just Saying.  Actually, this bodes well for the Luke Kennards, Blake Griffins and Reggie Bullocks.


Sparma wrote:Good exchange about Laimbeer and Drummond.   I'm tempted to write a book in response, but I think we know about where we all stand.

Bill just turned 61, while Andre's 24.  That's 37 years (36 most of the year, once Dre turns 25 in August).  For what it's worth, I'm a few months younger than Bill.

If 24 y.o. Bill'd shown up to training camp in 2017, I'd have had to put AD and Boban ahead of him, probably giving him the nod over Moreland for the 3rd C position.   I realize that it sounds outrageous for me to question whether Laimbeer of old would make an NBA roster today.   I think there's some bias in the reaction though, because he's part of a favorite generation (with guys around my age, as may be true for others on the forum), one that brought a couple of 'ships to town.   But I doubt anyone would blink if I questioned whether any of the Fort Wayne Pistons would make it on to an NBA roster.  And who thinks that Margaret Court, with all her decorations, could play with Serena, or Rod Laver with Federer?  Or that one of the fabled Fordham's blocks of granite -- OLineman Vince Lombardi at 175 lbs -- would have a chance against MSU's Bubba Smith some thirty years later.  Maybe we see some parallel between George Mikan's game and Moses Malone's, but I doubt many of us would state it as Mikan = Malone, being aware of the fantastic evolution of the game.

Maybe Laimbeer would have been the exception, the guy who's game would translate decades later (I happen to think that Wilt and Kareem would still excel as they were).  Again, these what if counterfactuals are difficult to adjudicate.

We do have some factual evidence that pertains to the evolution of athletes across time.  I read an article about the decade by decade increase in size of NFL linemen.  Maybe there's some Lion's OLineman 37 years ago who could have hung with the contemporary Lions, but the statistical measurements, combined with the laws of physics, suggest how difficult that would be.

And it's not just bigger.  Maybe there's an occasional Duckworth who's oversized for his era (and I loved watching Laimbeer take him apart in the finals), but was he also as strong, as fast, as the contemporary guys?  Very doubtful.

I'm too lazy now to compare 2016 Olympic results with those of 1980, but the evidence for faster, stronger could readily be gathered (again with exceptions).

I would have thought we could all agree to the bigger, faster, stronger part.

The tougher part has to do with skills.  Have NBA players not only gotten bigger, faster, stronger but also more skilled?   I think so, although I do see Laimbeer as the more skilled player than Drummond, eg, in defensive positioning.

Part of Laimbeer's value, also against Duckworth, lay in his being able to shoot well enough to force his guy to cover him outside, away from the basket.   In that way, he was part of a revolution.  But was Bill a good outside shooter by contemporary standards?   As I remember the NBA average from 3 was 36/ 37 % this year.  For his career Bill shot 32.6% from 3, a tad closer to the much maligned Stanley J's career percentage than to the league average.   And I've mentioned Isiah's shooting % as being similar to Ish's.   That's nothing against those guys, until we start claiming what they'd do -- as they were -- in today's NBA.  Skills may have regressed in some ways, but in important ways they've demonstrably advanced.

I don't think Andre would suddenly be defensively polished if he were placed 36, 37 years back.  But yes, I'd expect a lot more shoving, grabbing, and arms checking from him.   Because so much of that stuff would be called as a foul now; back then, I don't doubt he'd try to get away with a lot more, just as the Pistons of yore did, knowing they could.

Murph wrote:My guess as to who past Pistons center might best resemble in today's NBA based on their stats, size and style of play:

Bob Lanier =  DeMarcus Cousins (without the attitude)

Bill Laimbeer = Marc Gasol

Ben Wallace = Clint Capela

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Post  BallinD Thu May 24, 2018 5:27 pm

Brown skin STILL can get you killed, or Tased.  Just ask Sterling Brown of the Milwaukee Bucks.

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Post  Murph Thu May 24, 2018 5:09 pm

"But I doubt anyone would blink if I questioned whether any of the Fort Wayne Pistons would make it on to an NBA roster."

Sparma...what about George Yardley or Gene Shue?

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Post  BallinD Thu May 24, 2018 5:00 pm

Interesting discussion.  I'd like to jump in, just because I usually resist absolutes and find black and white too monochromatic.  So I say that to say that I'm not gonna write a book, and I'm not sure a book could illustrate that there is more to this than right or wrong.

What could trump Bigger, Faster, Stronger?  Well, more skilled could do it. As Dre matures, his skills are also improving, but is he at the level of Laimbeer, and a winner?  I think not. Smarter, More Heart, More BBIQ and More Leadership could trump it, I believe.  We need look no further than our recent Pistons History to the Tony Mitchells, the Rodney Stuckeys, the long-limbed, but defensive liability and clueless floor general Weggie Jackson and so it goes.  Bigger, stronger, faster anyone?

I really think it is pointless to argue this as constituted, because Steph Curry is not Bigger, Faster, nor Stronger, But Westbrook is.  Who would you rather have lead your team?  It is debatable, right? It is not cut-and-dried at all.  Not at all! And for the record, I would take Zeke in his prime with his Big Heart and LEADERSHIP over Curry in his prime and Westbrook in his prime, if I wanted to Win Games.  The same holds true for Laims vs Drummond.

BTW, none of our Championships were won because we were Bigger, Faster, Stronger.  Just Saying.  Actually, this bodes well for the Luke Kennards, Blake Griffins and Reggie Bullocks.


Sparma wrote:Good exchange about Laimbeer and Drummond.   I'm tempted to write a book in response, but I think we know about where we all stand.

Bill just turned 61, while Andre's 24.  That's 37 years (36 most of the year, once Dre turns 25 in August).  For what it's worth, I'm a few months younger than Bill.

If 24 y.o. Bill'd shown up to training camp in 2017, I'd have had to put AD and Boban ahead of him, probably giving him the nod over Moreland for the 3rd C position.   I realize that it sounds outrageous for me to question whether Laimbeer of old would make an NBA roster today.   I think there's some bias in the reaction though, because he's part of a favorite generation (with guys around my age, as may be true for others on the forum), one that brought a couple of 'ships to town.   But I doubt anyone would blink if I questioned whether any of the Fort Wayne Pistons would make it on to an NBA roster.  And who thinks that Margaret Court, with all her decorations, could play with Serena, or Rod Laver with Federer?  Or that one of the fabled Fordham's blocks of granite -- OLineman Vince Lombardi at 175 lbs -- would have a chance against MSU's Bubba Smith some thirty years later.  Maybe we see some parallel between George Mikan's game and Moses Malone's, but I doubt many of us would state it as Mikan = Malone, being aware of the fantastic evolution of the game.

Maybe Laimbeer would have been the exception, the guy who's game would translate decades later (I happen to think that Wilt and Kareem would still excel as they were).  Again, these what if counterfactuals are difficult to adjudicate.

We do have some factual evidence that pertains to the evolution of athletes across time.  I read an article about the decade by decade increase in size of NFL linemen.  Maybe there's some Lion's OLineman 37 years ago who could have hung with the contemporary Lions, but the statistical measurements, combined with the laws of physics, suggest how difficult that would be.

And it's not just bigger.  Maybe there's an occasional Duckworth who's oversized for his era (and I loved watching Laimbeer take him apart in the finals), but was he also as strong, as fast, as the contemporary guys?  Very doubtful.

I'm too lazy now to compare 2016 Olympic results with those of 1980, but the evidence for faster, stronger could readily be gathered (again with exceptions).

I would have thought we could all agree to the bigger, faster, stronger part.

The tougher part has to do with skills.  Have NBA players not only gotten bigger, faster, stronger but also more skilled?   I think so, although I do see Laimbeer as the more skilled player than Drummond, eg, in defensive positioning.

Part of Laimbeer's value, also against Duckworth, lay in his being able to shoot well enough to force his guy to cover him outside, away from the basket.   In that way, he was part of a revolution.  But was Bill a good outside shooter by contemporary standards?   As I remember the NBA average from 3 was 36/ 37 % this year.  For his career Bill shot 32.6% from 3, a tad closer to the much maligned Stanley J's career percentage than to the league average.   And I've mentioned Isiah's shooting % as being similar to Ish's.   That's nothing against those guys, until we start claiming what they'd do -- as they were -- in today's NBA.  Skills may have regressed in some ways, but in important ways they've demonstrably advanced.

I don't think Andre would suddenly be defensively polished if he were placed 36, 37 years back.  But yes, I'd expect a lot more shoving, grabbing, and arms checking from him.   Because so much of that stuff would be called as a foul now; back then, I don't doubt he'd try to get away with a lot more, just as the Pistons of yore did, knowing they could.

Murph wrote:My guess as to who past Pistons center might best resemble in today's NBA based on their stats, size and style of play:

Bob Lanier =  DeMarcus Cousins (without the attitude)

Bill Laimbeer = Marc Gasol

Ben Wallace = Clint Capela

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Post  WTF Thu May 24, 2018 4:18 pm

I wouldn't say across the board that Bigger Faster Stronger applies to all current players.   These aren't mechanical move parts that can be upgraded to perform better like a new and improved automobile or fighter jet.  Humans are still humans but there are always a few exceptions to the rules perhaps  Lebron might be one but in thinking about Larry Johnson he put me in the mind of Lebron.   Another example of this bigger stronger theory might be a younger Charles Barkley in remembering his Philly days.  

I can imagine that a lot of former players in places quiet and out public sit and laugh at the notion a lot of current players are on equal footing.  I think that the know the game has to be sold so they sit quietly and let the talking heads debate who's better.  But even the more seasoned talking heads know and think what many former players may think but for the good the game remain silent as well.  Most proclaiming the greatness of this current generation of players have never seen some of these former great in action.   

I took time thinking beyond Laim how AD might match up against other former centers, what would a Alonzo-Drummond match up look like, how well would he do against a Dream,  could he compete against Ewing or Robinson.  I don't think I've seen a center as gifted as the Dream since.  

We can offer example across various sports perhaps a young Tyson beating a younger Ali but maybe not a younger Foreman or Holms,  outside of sports a microwave is faster than an oven but not better.   Today player aren't durable running backs in the NFL had a game life expectancy 10 years plus but not today.   Look at our own RJ he hasn't played a full season since he's been here.  

Do we ever think we'll see another Rodman or Worthy? I'm not sure.  Certainly NFL player are bigger but not so true with players in other sports IMO
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Post  Sparma Thu May 24, 2018 3:12 pm

Good exchange about Laimbeer and Drummond.   I'm tempted to write a book in response, but I think we know about where we all stand.

Bill just turned 61, while Andre's 24.  That's 37 years (36 most of the year, once Dre turns 25 in August).  For what it's worth, I'm a few months younger than Bill.

If 24 y.o. Bill'd shown up to training camp in 2017, I'd have had to put AD and Boban ahead of him, probably giving him the nod over Moreland for the 3rd C position.   I realize that it sounds outrageous for me to question whether Laimbeer of old would make an NBA roster today.   I think there's some bias in the reaction though, because he's part of a favorite generation (with guys around my age, as may be true for others on the forum), one that brought a couple of 'ships to town.   But I doubt anyone would blink if I questioned whether any of the Fort Wayne Pistons would make it on to an NBA roster.  And who thinks that Margaret Court, with all her decorations, could play with Serena, or Rod Laver with Federer?  Or that one of the fabled Fordham's blocks of granite -- OLineman Vince Lombardi at 175 lbs -- would have a chance against MSU's Bubba Smith some thirty years later.  Maybe we see some parallel between George Mikan's game and Moses Malone's, but I doubt many of us would state it as Mikan = Malone, being aware of the fantastic evolution of the game.

Maybe Laimbeer would have been the exception, the guy who's game would translate decades later (I happen to think that Wilt and Kareem would still excel as they were).  Again, these what if counterfactuals are difficult to adjudicate.

We do have some factual evidence that pertains to the evolution of athletes across time.  I read an article about the decade by decade increase in size of NFL linemen.  Maybe there's some Lion's OLineman 37 years ago who could have hung with the contemporary Lions, but the statistical measurements, combined with the laws of physics, suggest how difficult that would be.

And it's not just bigger.  Maybe there's an occasional Duckworth who's oversized for his era (and I loved watching Laimbeer take him apart in the finals), but was he also as strong, as fast, as the contemporary guys?  Very doubtful.

I'm too lazy now to compare 2016 Olympic results with those of 1980, but the evidence for faster, stronger could readily be gathered (again with exceptions).

I would have thought we could all agree to the bigger, faster, stronger part.

The tougher part has to do with skills.  Have NBA players not only gotten bigger, faster, stronger but also more skilled?   I think so, although I do see Laimbeer as the more skilled player than Drummond, eg, in defensive positioning.

Part of Laimbeer's value, also against Duckworth, lay in his being able to shoot well enough to force his guy to cover him outside, away from the basket.   In that way, he was part of a revolution.  But was Bill a good outside shooter by contemporary standards?   As I remember the NBA average from 3 was 36/ 37 % this year.  For his career Bill shot 32.6% from 3, a tad closer to the much maligned Stanley J's career percentage than to the league average.   And I've mentioned Isiah's shooting % as being similar to Ish's.   That's nothing against those guys, until we start claiming what they'd do -- as they were -- in today's NBA.  Skills may have regressed in some ways, but in important ways they've demonstrably advanced.

I don't think Andre would suddenly be defensively polished if he were placed 36, 37 years back.  But yes, I'd expect a lot more shoving, grabbing, and arms checking from him.   Because so much of that stuff would be called as a foul now; back then, I don't doubt he'd try to get away with a lot more, just as the Pistons of yore did, knowing they could.

Murph wrote:My guess as to who past Pistons center might best resemble in today's NBA based on their stats, size and style of play:

Bob Lanier =  DeMarcus Cousins (without the attitude)

Bill Laimbeer = Marc Gasol

Ben Wallace = Clint Capela

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Post  Murph Thu May 24, 2018 8:47 am

My guess as to who past Pistons center might best resemble in today's NBA based on their stats, size and style of play:

Bob Lanier = DeMarcus Cousins (without the attitude)

Bill Laimbeer = Marc Gasol

Ben Wallace = Clint Capela


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Post  Oracle Thu May 24, 2018 6:11 am

Sparma wrote:Drummond could easily shove Laimbeer out of position if given more latitude. He'd clean up in the olden days. And Boban would be an All Star.
Sparma, if you guys don't mind, here's my two cents.

1. Boban wouldn't be an all star, but he certainly might have fared better, even though Wilt would eat his lunch while raping his mama  lol lol lol

2. I don't think Drummond would a problem in the least for Laimbeer, and here's why in one word... Duckworth!

Kevin Duckworth was a mountain of a man, standing 7'0 and clocking in somewhere between 275 and 290 pounds(depending on available eats  lol )... and Laimbeer kicked his arse pretty bad! Drummond is more athletic, but he wouldn't be pushing Laims around!

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Post  WTF Thu May 24, 2018 5:14 am

Sparma wrote:That aside, here's a recurrent point you make that I regard as genuinely insulting: "I just simply refuse to go numbers alone and really can't understand why some of you are doing it...."

This comment wasn't directed directly at you (I did say some of you) 


Sparma wrote:
Drummond could easily shove Laimbeer out of position if given more latitude. He'd clean up in the olden days. And Boban would be an All Star.

Are you saying Drummond only plays soft because current rule dictates it?  I do recall Bill playing against some extremely tougher equally if not more athletic centers than Drummond and fairing very well.  So how would Drummond fair against a young Shaq, Ewing, Dream, Sampson, or the Sikma, Moses, Divac, Kareem, Daugherty, Dawkins, Gilmore, Sabonis, I believe Bill had contact with all these guys and I'm sure I'm missing a few.  This just 12 to start now give me 12 current centers that AD faces on a daily this good.  

If an aging D Howard is whipping on AD ass how in the hell he's going to shove Bill out of Bounds when most of the above centers couldn't  Very Happy  I guess a lot of those guy would be the D League.
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Post  Sparma Wed May 23, 2018 9:34 pm

If (team) success were the only, or even main, criterion, you'd have to go with Bill Russell. Between Jordan and James, Jordan's more successful (Lebron had one subpar finals appearance, v Dallas). Even there, I think that LeBron's finals appearances, even with more losses than wins, get underrated.

btw, in Tall Tales, it's recounted that Bill Russell nearly cost the Celts a championship with a TO on an inbound that hit wiring (that no longer exists). He plead with teammates to bail him out, and ... "Havlicek steals the ball...." That wasn't in the finals, but the showdown with the newly acquired Wilt was understood to be for the 'ship. Wilt -- taunted by Boston crowds as "loser, loser" -- later said something about it being "ironic" that it's forgotten that Russell was nearly the goat (in the old fashioned sense).

That great, great Boston dynasty also was awfully lucky, in the first place to land Russell (he was one of three names to be drawn out of a hat in competition with two other teams (NY & Philly); Boston actually hoped for at least one, if not both, of the other guys). One year Lakers' sharpshooter (couldn't do much else) Frank Selvy missed an open 10 foot shot that would have won LA the title. Boston also arguably got lucky in beating St. Louis in one finals (but unlucky in losing to them in another finals, with Russell hurting.)


Oracle wrote:Jordan is only one of the most successful, others have had more success!
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