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Another Elephant In The Room

Post  BallinD on Mon May 28, 2018 1:04 am

Stefanski.  Wow.  Underwhelming, conservative, "Meh" hiring.  The clueless beat writers and columnists let Gores get away with more stupidity.  Rod Beard of the News lumps Stefanski in with Magic and Jerry West, but he was neither a player of even near their stature nor has he won anything.  No Pistons DNA or Pedigree unlike Magic, for example.

This quote from Beard explains things:

"The Pistons will utilize Stefanski as a senior adviser, similar to other teams in recent years — including Magic Johnson with the Lakers, Jerry Colangelo with the Sixers and Jerry West with the Clippers — to help guide them in rebuilding the front office and hiring a head coach. Stefanski will report directly to Gores, which puts him on the same level with a team president, but he doesn’t have that title.

What the eventual role will be could change. But for now, Stefanski has the keys."
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More AD/ Stats

Post  Sparma on Sun May 27, 2018 8:30 pm

Those are good questions, Wise.  In the case of the "hustle" stats I passed along, it sounds like the NBA (perhaps outsourcing the data collection) supplied the numbers for TV for the playoffs, then continued to supply them.  The stats are posted on NBA.com, so that I'd think that the league itself is the source.

My view on stats and basketball is that you want all the information you can get.  Those "hustle" stats provide more info.  Hence, I'm interested.

Of course, there's a tremendously difficult job of interpretation.  My own position is that you want a combination of the eye test and stats.  For instance, with the "hustle" stats, I notice that Drummond and DeAndre Jordan, both among the box out leaders, have a big gap with their enormous rebounding numbers (Howard's got a pretty good gap too).  Combined with my observations of Drummond, I'd infer that he's getting a ton of his rebounds from leaping ability (and the ability to jump frequently) rather than boxing out alone.  The commentators mention the huge boxing out numbers by Steve Adams, along with him being #15 in rebounds at that time, second (!) on his team.  They observe/ infer that a lot of his blocks out benefit Westbrook who actually leads the teams in rebounds.  Sounds to me like they're linking stats and observations there.

I agree completely that one wants to know the percentages.  I'm guessing that someone does keep track of that, but I don't know of that info being released.  My sense is that teams pay millions for stats, that are consequently often proprietary.  I'm happy that they've now let us in on some of collected stats.  

As an aside, I don't disagree that Drummond's failed plenty of times in blocking out.  Anthony Davis is a great player, so he's going to make his opponent look bad a lot (incidentally Davis is not among the block out leaders, per the Feb 15 article); Whiteside (neither a top 10 rebounder nor blocker outer) and Gortat (not a top 10 rebounder) have also scorched Andre.  One thing to bear in mind is that in the NBA even the top, top players (which Andre is not) fail, even fail often: eg Wilt collected 55 rebounds against Bill Russell; I'm guessing there were some botched block outs that night by Bill.

They did mention that Steve Adams led the league in contested rebound %.  That's not the same as block out/ failure to block out %, but it does provide further insight regarding the proportion of success, not just a total number.  Drummond ranks #10 there, with Greg Monroe (!) #5.  There's also something called Adjusted Rebound % where Drummond ranks #6 (still on NBA.com).  So there are some relevant %s.  I'm no expert in interpreting the numbers, but if I were running a team I'd want statistical experts in conversation with eye test scouts.

You also raise the question of what difference Drummond's numbers make to the team winning.  That's the big question, I agree, one that I can't answer.  As much as we discussed Ben and Bill, I do think (based on the eye test) that Ben's efforts (again, I mainly saw Bill in the playoffs) contributed majorly to the team winning.  I've got some eye test questions about that in Andre's case.  But I'd also want to avoid the fallacy of saying that because x's team had a better record than y, therefore it follows that x contributed more to his team winning than y did.  That doesn't follow, if x's teammates were a lot better than y's (as is clearly the case when comparing Bill and Ben to Andre).

So I don't know, but of course there are numbers crunchers who address just these kind of questions.  I'm not going to look it up again now, but as I remember Drummond scores better in Win Shares than do Wallace and Laimbeer.

And there are attempts, specifically, to correlate defensive performance with team success.  I'm not in a good position to interpret those numbers.  But we do find (again on NBA.com) that Drummond scores impressively well.  There are a number of relevant categories on NBA.com (eg Drummond's #1 Defensive Ranking).  Most pertinent to the question of the link between Drummond's defensive work and team success is Defensive Win Shares, where Drummond scores a 5.7, which is the best rating in the league.

I've got reservations about the efficacy of Drummond's D based on my own observations.  Still, I do take the stats seriously.  Being committed to the notion that the best interpretation of what's going on will draw both from stats and observations, I find sweeping dismissals of stats (which I was hearing from Don) to be unproductive.  That said, I think you've raised important questions.  I happen to think that some of those will be illuminated quantitatively, by way of stats.

 

WTF wrote:
Sparma wrote:Don writes: "He never boxes anyone out."  

Rather than taking my irenic overture as an occasion to retreat just a tad from an obviously false assertion, to engage with the newly presented statistically backed fact of Drummond being among the league leaders in blocking out, and to seek to have a reasonable exchange among fans about a contentious topic, you instead use it as an opportunity to launch yet another rant about Drummond.

Let it never be said that I didn't try.

Not sure about the validity of this data myself. Who really compiled all this data and these stats.  I won't say like Don that Drummond never boxes out but again too much credit is given to stats such like this and we become overly analytical in assessing players.   In fairness a stat should be provided as well on the impact of this in games.  Did it result in wins also they should flip this and include how many times he failed to box out and the impact the had on a game.   

These stats actually mean nothing and we all already knew Don statement that AD never boxes out was a falsehood.  I like Don would like to see a stat of all the times AD failed to box out cost us game.
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Numbers Always The Numbers You All Love The Numbers

Post  WTF on Sun May 27, 2018 7:09 pm

Sparma wrote:Don writes: "He never boxes anyone out."  

Rather than taking my irenic overture as an occasion to retreat just a tad from an obviously false assertion, to engage with the newly presented statistically backed fact of Drummond being among the league leaders in blocking out, and to seek to have a reasonable exchange among fans about a contentious topic, you instead use it as an opportunity to launch yet another rant about Drummond.

Let it never be said that I didn't try.

Not sure about the validity of this data myself. Who really compiled all this data and these stats.  I won't say like Don that Drummond never boxes out but again too much credit is given to stats such like this and we become overly analytical in assessing players.   In fairness a stat should be provided as well on the impact of this in games.  Did it result in wins also they should flip this and include how many times he failed to box out and the impact the had on a game.   

These stats actually mean nothing and we all already knew Don statement that AD never boxes out was a falsehood.  I like Don would like to see a stat of all the times AD failed to box out cost us game.
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Don/ Drummond

Post  Sparma on Sun May 27, 2018 2:54 pm

Don writes: "He never boxes anyone out."  

Rather than taking my irenic overture as an occasion to retreat just a tad from an obviously false assertion, to engage with the newly presented statistically backed fact of Drummond being among the league leaders in blocking out, and to seek to have a reasonable exchange among fans about a contentious topic, you instead use it as an opportunity to launch yet another rant about Drummond.

Let it never be said that I didn't try.
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As everyone is content with AD leading the team forward, I will move on to Henry Ellenson. What the hell went wrong??

Post  cool breeze on Sun May 27, 2018 12:47 pm

Watching Jordan Bell winning playing time as a rookie on an extremely talented basketball team and then seeing Looney playing significant minutes as well, it is very sad for me to see how poorly Henry Ellenson played this past season. He started out with a bang in the first game playing tough defense and scoring around 17 points. Then his outside jump shot went south and the coach couldn't trust him on the defensive end and benched him for most of the season. I know something about Steve Kerr, Looney and Bell. I really liked those two players when they played in college. Both players were equipped to fight for playing time after they were drafted because they were tough defenders and had all of the fundamentals down. Also, both players exhibited toughness during their college games in all areas. Bell was not a scorer but a monster defender, shot blocker and rebounder. Does that sound anything like our Dennis Rodman when he arrived as a rookie? How about Sally? We had a great GM in those days. Golden State has Steve Kerr who can identify talent and it doesn't matter where Golden State is positioned in the draft, they will manage to find the best possible player and one requirement is that the player they select has to be able to play defense.

The Piston management knowing that they have a small market team, have broken the most important rule relating to the draft. Instead of stock piling draft picks and then doing the hard work to identify the best players at the position they draft in, Piston management has instead mostly ignored the draft and paced their hope in 2nd rate free agents. Now they are stuck with them and have had less than average success with their draft selections. I believe it the core vets can make or break the young players who come in through the draft. Zeke and company embraced Rodman and Sally seeing their potential as rotation pieces because they played hard. What rookie has a chance with our veterans? We saw what happened to Pope, Johnson etc with the freeze outs when they got in games thanks to Reggie Jackson. But our rookies also have not distinguished themselves as hard nosed players when they did secure playing time.

The path to playing time for young players is to recognize that if they bust their asses on the defensive end usually the coaching staff will recognize their value. It should have been easy for Henry E. to earn a lot of playing time on the Pistons. The assistant coaches should have been on him everyday to improve his defense. I do think SVG's assistant coaches were not very good at teaching the fundamentals or perhaps were slackers themselves regarding their work ethic as coaches. There is no way Ellenson should not be a better defender at this time in his career. But to me he isn't strong enough, smart enough or confident enough to make a significant impact for the Pistons next season. He failed to rotate properly at times. He was pushed around in the paint a lot. To me he looked like a lost puppy in many games. If his outside shot fell, his overall game improved but that didn't happen often. He didn't have the defensive mindset of a Jordan Bell who has always been an over achiever because of his work ethic. Even though Bell didn't play a lot, he kept in top physical condition and worked hard studying opponent strengths and weaknesses to get the mental part of the game down even though he sat the bench. What was Henry doing? Henry is a different kind of player. For sure he would be more of an asset for the Pistons now if he had played in the G league a lot over the past two years. Must be he was not paying much attention while sitting on the bench watching some of the rotation players make their mistakes and learning from those mistakes not repeating them when he got in. If Henry had shown high intensity energy wise and buckled down on the defensive end and positioned himself better on the defensive boards, there is no doubt that he would have played more.

I wouldn't waste my time on Henry Ellenson if I didn't think he has great potential as an NBA player. But he has to do the hard work and hard work creates more confidence in players. What will happen next season with Ellenson? I would bet that if he had been on Golden State, Henry would be more ready to become a force next season. The Piston coaching staff along with the make up of the kind of core players the Pistons has had over the past few seasons has a lot to do with how the rookies and 2nd year players perform. Watching that Golden State bench during time outs I see some of the older vets who don't play acting as coaches for Bell and Looney. They get those guys on the right page.

Meanwhile, our Piston leaders are all tuned into themselves. That of course comes when our core players have never had a history of winning much themselves. In this next draft, I hope the decision makers check the candidates past history. Were they key players on their college team? Did any of them draw the defensive assignment to play against their opponent's best player? Did they play selfishly or were they team leaders who played the right way? I think Piston management looks at some of the bogus stats that mean nothing when it comes to winning. There is no way the Pistons should have passed on Mitchell. Yet I like Kennard and would have liked to see him play point guard because he can handle the basketball well, see the floor and has a much higher basketball IQ than either Jackson or Smith.

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Re: FORUM

Post  cool breeze on Sun May 27, 2018 12:09 pm

Sparma wrote:Don, I think you know a ton about basketball, but you've got a serious confirmation bias going with Drummond.  
You write: "He never boxes anyone out."  I'm afraid I spent a ton of time watching Pistons' basketball this past season, so that I know that's not true.  I've seen him be really tough blocking out at times.  And I'm guessing that you know that too, that you're using some rhetorical exaggeration to convey your perspective.  But now we've got evidence that he's among the best at
boxing out.  As a fan, why not celebrate that?

And if not that, why not at least take the statistical study as part of the puzzle that needs to be elucidated?  It's just one piece, and maybe your negative interpretation of AD is more on track than the positive one that I've come to hold.  I"m most sympathetic with the argument that if AD's got so much going why aren't they winning more.  I started as mixed, but quite critical, regarding AD; I've gradually become more positive, partly in reaction to negative posts, but mainly because I've become convinced by now that he's got an unusually impressive track record for a 24 y.o. that deserves respect.  Just denying the data on blocking out seems beneath you.  If there's some tangible reason to discredit the study, go for it.  But be engaged with the info as it comes in.

Oddly, I ran across that study as I was attempting to reconcile a fact passed along by Murph -- Drummond's presence corresponds with a decline in scoring by opponents -- with an impression that I share with you that AD's not a good one on one defender (based on observation).

My mediation would be that a) AD really isn't a good one on one defender, but b) the team does better with him in there defensively, because c) he's such a good rebounder, especially offensive rebounder, that he cuts down on the opponent's opportunities when he's in there.

I did run into some studies correlating rebounding with defensive success.  One contains a remark about Kevin Love that I think may apply by analogy to AD.  Folks going by the eye test couldn't believe that Love ranked as a positive defender at that time.  The mystery was solved because he really isn't a very good one on one defender, but his strong rebounding makes it a plus quality anyway.  I think something of the sort is true for AD too.

There could be more to it.  I remember stats about Boban being awful on distance shots by opponents, but terrific when they shot from 6 ft in.  I'd like to see the numbers on AD's success when the opponent shoots from different distances.  I suspect we might find he's got a major impact near the basket, even though he doesn't seem like much of a rim protector (although his increased blocks this year suggest improvement).  So, I'm guessing the fact that Murph cites needs multiple explanations, maybe still leaving room for my eye test assessment that he's far from an outstanding defender.

AD's a complicated player, that I've struggled to understand.  I've probably ventured any number of problematic claims trying to get a bead on him.


cool breeze wrote:
WTF wrote:
Sparma wrote:I'd guess that teams have been tracking this for a while, but now we've got some public numbers.  The stats are as of February 14, with Drummond sixth in the league in box outs.  I'd say that just two guys have a significant edge on him: Steve Adams (not in the top 10 in rebounds) and Enes Kanter (#9 in rebounds as of Feb. 9).  I'm glad that the kind of work that's often been done without sufficient recognition is now being tracked quantitatively.

from NBAAdvanced Stats, Feb. 15, 2018: "Dig Deeper into the Game with New Defensive and Hustle Data"

"Hustle Stats: Box Outs

The NBA introduced hustle stats during the 2016 Playoffs to finally measure the effort plays that “don’t always show up in the box score” but are so important for team success.
After beginning with deflections, loose ball recoveries, screen assists, charges drawn and contested shots, now box outs are available for all players and teams for the 2017-18 season.
The importance of boxing out an opponent has been drilled into basketball players from day one. When a shot goes up, don’t just stare at the ball and watch what happens, get a body on someone so you’re in position to secure the rebound in case the shot misses.
As expected there is a direct correlation between boxing out and rebounding. If a player ranks among the league leaders in rebounding, he’s most likely near the top of the rankings in box outs as well.
Top 10 Rebound Leaders (through games played on Feb. 14)
Andre Drummond: 15.7*
DeAndre Jordan: 15.0*
DeMarcus Cousins: 12.9
Dwight Howard: 12.6*
Karl-Anthony Towns: 12.1
Joel Embiid: 11.1
Clint Capela: 11.1
Anthony Davis: 10.7
Enes Kanter: 10.7*
Nikola Jokic: 10.5

Top 10 Box Out Leaders (through games played on Feb. 14)
Steven Adams: 11.3
Enes Kanter: 9.5*
DeAndre Jordan: 8.8*
Robin Lopez: 8.6
Marcin Gortat: 8.5
Andre Drummond: 8.2*
Ed Davis: 8.0
Rudy Gobert: 7.8
LaMarcus Aldridge: 7.7
Dwight Howard: 7.4*"

It seems Drummond does box out still I get your point that he doesn't do so in crucial game defining moments when it matters most.  It's not the how many that matters, or the what (whatever the stats might be) but the when it occurs and the impact of it.

Maybe retired KGB agents are producing these fake stats. Maybe they were hired by player agents. All of my friends who have watched AD including his old college coaches say different including me. I see what AD does and doesn't do. He never boxes anyone out. He is obvious to knowing how to do it or where board crashers are attacking the boards. Who would be compiling these stats. It doesn't make any sense like a lot of nonsense going on with agents in recent years. Maybe owners like Tom Gores buys it and of course some gulible posters might who never really watch games but post. Of course AD boxed out Whiteside in that fatal play that took Detroit out of the playoffs.

If some of you wish to worship players like AD go ahead and do it. I admire the terrific guards the Pistons had in the past. They were the franchise players and it was realistic to pay them the most money. The Pistons are a complete joke and those stats Sparma provided are bogus. One of the things the assistant coaches at UCONN tried to work on with AD was boxing out. They always got a blank look in response. Nothing has changed since. But maybe the corrupted stats could convince some idiot GM to take the bait in a potential trade.

Then no wonder Tom Gores asked for Andre Drummond's advice so much. He is a fantastic paint protector and is especially great at boxing out even the best centers in the league like Anthony Davis Davis never makes a complete fool out of AD. Just look at the stats. Gortat never out foxes AD in their matchups. He always boxes out Gortat. And of course Whiteside never got that tip in over AD. Who spread that rumor? If there is one position that nobody has to worry about next season it has to be the center position. We have the best possible center moving forward because for sure Oracle your have seen AD box out many times. I am still waiting for that moment. It has never happened and I watch what goes on with the Pistons dysfunctional defensive rotation system. AD is the main problem. No doubt about it. By the way what head coach has to call out their franchise player as someone who is not "engaged". Maybe when opponents get the 2nd, 3rd chance opportunities it is the coaches fault when AD is in the game. For sure the Pistons should not consider breaking up this loser team and trading the only player that might get them on the right track. If we get the right coach, everything will change. We don't need any of those players who competed in the playoffs. As long as we have Andre Drummond all is good in Piston land. Besides he offers a lot in the pre game celebrations that Tom Gores is fond of promoting. None of the players look pissed off after losing three games in a row. The circle dance is what the City of Detroit admires. Yet few people even care or think about the Pistons anymore. That couldn't have anything to do with the culture created by AD and RJ. No way Oracle, you are on the right track. Keep pondering those stats produced by agents for propaganda purposes. WE have a real winner at the center position who for sure is worth that contract he signed.

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RANKED: The 32 Greatest Players In NBA History

Post  Oracle on Sun May 27, 2018 5:05 am

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Don & Drummond

Post  Sparma on Sat May 26, 2018 10:58 pm

Don, I think you know a ton about basketball, but you've got a serious confirmation bias going with Drummond.  
You write: "He never boxes anyone out."  I'm afraid I spent a ton of time watching Pistons' basketball this past season, so that I know that's not true.  I've seen him be really tough blocking out at times.  And I'm guessing that you know that too, that you're using some rhetorical exaggeration to convey your perspective.  But now we've got evidence that he's among the best at
boxing out.  As a fan, why not celebrate that?

And if not that, why not at least take the statistical study as part of the puzzle that needs to be elucidated? It's just one piece, and maybe your negative interpretation of AD is more on track than the positive one that I've come to hold. I"m most sympathetic with the argument that if AD's got so much going why aren't they winning more. I started as mixed, but quite critical, regarding AD; I've gradually become more positive, partly in reaction to negative posts, but mainly because I've become convinced by now that he's got an unusually impressive track record for a 24 y.o. that deserves respect. Just denying the data on blocking out seems beneath you. If there's some tangible reason to discredit the study, go for it. But be engaged with the info as it comes in.

Oddly, I ran across that study as I was attempting to reconcile a fact passed along by Murph -- Drummond's presence corresponds with a decline in scoring by opponents -- with an impression that I share with you that AD's not a good one on one defender (based on observation).

My mediation would be that a) AD really isn't a good one on one defender, but b) the team does better with him in there defensively, because c) he's such a good rebounder, especially offensive rebounder, that he cuts down on the opponent's opportunities when he's in there.

I did run into some studies correlating rebounding with defensive success.  One contains a remark about Kevin Love that I think may apply by analogy to AD.  Folks going by the eye test couldn't believe that Love ranked as a positive defender at that time.  The mystery was solved because he really isn't a very good one on one defender, but his strong rebounding makes it a plus quality anyway.  I think something of the sort is true for AD too.

There could be more to it.  I remember stats about Boban being awful on distance shots by opponents, but terrific when they shot from 6 ft in.  I'd like to see the numbers on AD's success when the opponent shoots from different distances.  I suspect we might find he's got a major impact near the basket, even though he doesn't seem like much of a rim protector (although his increased blocks this year suggest improvement).  So, I'm guessing the fact that Murph cites needs multiple explanations, maybe still leaving room for my eye test assessment that he's far from an outstanding defender.

AD's a complicated player, that I've struggled to understand.  I've probably ventured any number of problematic claims trying to get a bead on him.


cool breeze wrote:
WTF wrote:
Sparma wrote:I'd guess that teams have been tracking this for a while, but now we've got some public numbers.  The stats are as of February 14, with Drummond sixth in the league in box outs.  I'd say that just two guys have a significant edge on him: Steve Adams (not in the top 10 in rebounds) and Enes Kanter (#9 in rebounds as of Feb. 9).  I'm glad that the kind of work that's often been done without sufficient recognition is now being tracked quantitatively.

from NBAAdvanced Stats, Feb. 15, 2018: "Dig Deeper into the Game with New Defensive and Hustle Data"

"Hustle Stats: Box Outs

The NBA introduced hustle stats during the 2016 Playoffs to finally measure the effort plays that “don’t always show up in the box score” but are so important for team success.
After beginning with deflections, loose ball recoveries, screen assists, charges drawn and contested shots, now box outs are available for all players and teams for the 2017-18 season.
The importance of boxing out an opponent has been drilled into basketball players from day one. When a shot goes up, don’t just stare at the ball and watch what happens, get a body on someone so you’re in position to secure the rebound in case the shot misses.
As expected there is a direct correlation between boxing out and rebounding. If a player ranks among the league leaders in rebounding, he’s most likely near the top of the rankings in box outs as well.
Top 10 Rebound Leaders (through games played on Feb. 14)
Andre Drummond: 15.7*
DeAndre Jordan: 15.0*
DeMarcus Cousins: 12.9
Dwight Howard: 12.6*
Karl-Anthony Towns: 12.1
Joel Embiid: 11.1
Clint Capela: 11.1
Anthony Davis: 10.7
Enes Kanter: 10.7*
Nikola Jokic: 10.5

Top 10 Box Out Leaders (through games played on Feb. 14)
Steven Adams: 11.3
Enes Kanter: 9.5*
DeAndre Jordan: 8.8*
Robin Lopez: 8.6
Marcin Gortat: 8.5
Andre Drummond: 8.2*
Ed Davis: 8.0
Rudy Gobert: 7.8
LaMarcus Aldridge: 7.7
Dwight Howard: 7.4*"

It seems Drummond does box out still I get your point that he doesn't do so in crucial game defining moments when it matters most.  It's not the how many that matters, or the what (whatever the stats might be) but the when it occurs and the impact of it.

Maybe retired KGB agents are producing these fake stats. Maybe they were hired by player agents. All of my friends who have watched AD including his old college coaches say different including me. I see what AD does and doesn't do. He never boxes anyone out. He is obvious to knowing how to do it or where board crashers are attacking the boards. Who would be compiling these stats. It doesn't make any sense like a lot of nonsense going on with agents in recent years. Maybe owners like Tom Gores buys it and of course some gulible posters might who never really watch games but post. Of course AD boxed out Whiteside in that fatal play that took Detroit out of the playoffs.

If some of you wish to worship players like AD go ahead and do it. I admire the terrific guards the Pistons had in the past. They were the franchise players and it was realistic to pay them the most money. The Pistons are a complete joke and those stats Sparma provided are bogus. One of the things the assistant coaches at UCONN tried to work on with AD was boxing out. They always got a blank look in response. Nothing has changed since. But maybe the corrupted stats could convince some idiot GM to take the bait in a potential trade.


Last edited by Sparma on Sun May 27, 2018 12:13 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Added the second paragraph)
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Re: FORUM

Post  cool breeze on Sat May 26, 2018 9:10 pm

WTF wrote:
Sparma wrote:I'd guess that teams have been tracking this for a while, but now we've got some public numbers.  The stats are as of February 14, with Drummond sixth in the league in box outs.  I'd say that just two guys have a significant edge on him: Steve Adams (not in the top 10 in rebounds) and Enes Kanter (#9 in rebounds as of Feb. 9).  I'm glad that the kind of work that's often been done without sufficient recognition is now being tracked quantitatively.

from NBAAdvanced Stats, Feb. 15, 2018: "Dig Deeper into the Game with New Defensive and Hustle Data"

"Hustle Stats: Box Outs

The NBA introduced hustle stats during the 2016 Playoffs to finally measure the effort plays that “don’t always show up in the box score” but are so important for team success.
After beginning with deflections, loose ball recoveries, screen assists, charges drawn and contested shots, now box outs are available for all players and teams for the 2017-18 season.
The importance of boxing out an opponent has been drilled into basketball players from day one. When a shot goes up, don’t just stare at the ball and watch what happens, get a body on someone so you’re in position to secure the rebound in case the shot misses.
As expected there is a direct correlation between boxing out and rebounding. If a player ranks among the league leaders in rebounding, he’s most likely near the top of the rankings in box outs as well.
Top 10 Rebound Leaders (through games played on Feb. 14)
Andre Drummond: 15.7*
DeAndre Jordan: 15.0*
DeMarcus Cousins: 12.9
Dwight Howard: 12.6*
Karl-Anthony Towns: 12.1
Joel Embiid: 11.1
Clint Capela: 11.1
Anthony Davis: 10.7
Enes Kanter: 10.7*
Nikola Jokic: 10.5

Top 10 Box Out Leaders (through games played on Feb. 14)
Steven Adams: 11.3
Enes Kanter: 9.5*
DeAndre Jordan: 8.8*
Robin Lopez: 8.6
Marcin Gortat: 8.5
Andre Drummond: 8.2*
Ed Davis: 8.0
Rudy Gobert: 7.8
LaMarcus Aldridge: 7.7
Dwight Howard: 7.4*"

It seems Drummond does box out still I get your point that he doesn't do so in crucial game defining moments when it matters most.  It's not the how many that matters, or the what (whatever the stats might be) but the when it occurs and the impact of it.

Maybe retired KGB agents are producing these fake stats. Maybe they were hired by player agents. All of my friends who have watched AD including his old college coaches say different including me. I see what AD does and doesn't do. He never boxes anyone out. He is obvious to knowing how to do it or where board crashers are attacking the boards. Who would be compiling these stats. It doesn't make any sense like a lot of nonsense going on with agents in recent years. Maybe owners like Tom Gores buys it and of course some gulible posters might who never really watch games but post. Of course AD boxed out Whiteside in that fatal play that took Detroit out of the playoffs.

If some of you wish to worship players like AD go ahead and do it. I admire the terrific guards the Pistons had in the past. They were the franchise players and it was realistic to pay them the most money. The Pistons are a complete joke and those stats Sparma provided are bogus. One of the things the assistant coaches at UCONN tried to work on with AD was boxing out. They always got a blank look in response. Nothing has changed since. But maybe the corrupted stats could convince some idiot GM to take the bait in a potential trade.

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LMAO! Well Don What's To Say Now

Post  Oracle on Sat May 26, 2018 5:33 pm

Nothing except that all of the so called detailed watching he does doesn't seem to be worth the effort since he's constantly being proved wrong  lol

Don't worry Don, we still love you or we wouldn't waste time trying to help you out of the holes you keep digging  lol lol lol
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Murph

Post  Oracle on Sat May 26, 2018 5:30 pm

Murph wrote:I think the NFL owners have every right to require that their players stand for the National Anthem.  After all, the owners are running a business, and they're losing massive amounts of revenue due to the players protests.  And eventually, this revenue loss is going to trickle down to the players salaries.  

Furthermore, the NBA owners require that players stand, and no one protests that.
Firstly, the players are paid to play football, politics shouldn't be a part of this, so can we agree that employers should have less influence on what an employee does when participating in non-work activities. So while the activity is conducted at the place of work, how can an employer require an employee to do things NOT related to their job?

In addition, if the place of work was built with public funds, then the employer is a tenant and should also have limited ability to force anything other than the activity they got the facility to perform.

Finally, this is pretty much a race issue. It's fans that look like me that they're afraid to offend, but news flash, if they piss off fans of color, they'll have a whole different but similar problem, that's why you leave politics out of sports(should be Hollywood too, but...).

They better find a solution to this quick or it may not end well. I LOVE the Lions, but I'm debating if they're going to get any more of my money after supporting this debacle. Twitter is buzzing about this and there's going to be a big backlash!
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LMAO! Well Don What's To Say Now

Post  WTF on Sat May 26, 2018 1:38 pm

Sparma wrote:I'd guess that teams have been tracking this for a while, but now we've got some public numbers.  The stats are as of February 14, with Drummond sixth in the league in box outs.  I'd say that just two guys have a significant edge on him: Steve Adams (not in the top 10 in rebounds) and Enes Kanter (#9 in rebounds as of Feb. 9).  I'm glad that the kind of work that's often been done without sufficient recognition is now being tracked quantitatively.

from NBAAdvanced Stats, Feb. 15, 2018: "Dig Deeper into the Game with New Defensive and Hustle Data"

"Hustle Stats: Box Outs

The NBA introduced hustle stats during the 2016 Playoffs to finally measure the effort plays that “don’t always show up in the box score” but are so important for team success.
After beginning with deflections, loose ball recoveries, screen assists, charges drawn and contested shots, now box outs are available for all players and teams for the 2017-18 season.
The importance of boxing out an opponent has been drilled into basketball players from day one. When a shot goes up, don’t just stare at the ball and watch what happens, get a body on someone so you’re in position to secure the rebound in case the shot misses.
As expected there is a direct correlation between boxing out and rebounding. If a player ranks among the league leaders in rebounding, he’s most likely near the top of the rankings in box outs as well.
Top 10 Rebound Leaders (through games played on Feb. 14)
Andre Drummond: 15.7*
DeAndre Jordan: 15.0*
DeMarcus Cousins: 12.9
Dwight Howard: 12.6*
Karl-Anthony Towns: 12.1
Joel Embiid: 11.1
Clint Capela: 11.1
Anthony Davis: 10.7
Enes Kanter: 10.7*
Nikola Jokic: 10.5

Top 10 Box Out Leaders (through games played on Feb. 14)
Steven Adams: 11.3
Enes Kanter: 9.5*
DeAndre Jordan: 8.8*
Robin Lopez: 8.6
Marcin Gortat: 8.5
Andre Drummond: 8.2*
Ed Davis: 8.0
Rudy Gobert: 7.8
LaMarcus Aldridge: 7.7
Dwight Howard: 7.4*"

It seems Drummond does box out still I get your point that he doesn't do so in crucial game defining moments when it matters most.  It's not the how many that matters, or the what (whatever the stats might be) but the when it occurs and the impact of it.
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Surprise? Drummond among league leaders in boxing out

Post  Sparma on Sat May 26, 2018 1:29 pm

I'd guess that teams have been tracking this for a while, but now we've got some public numbers. The stats are as of February 14, with Drummond sixth in the league in box outs. I'd say that just two guys have a significant edge on him: Steve Adams (not in the top 10 in rebounds) and Enes Kanter (#9 in rebounds as of Feb. 9). I'm glad that the kind of work that's often been done without sufficient recognition is now being tracked quantitatively.

from NBAAdvanced Stats, Feb. 15, 2018: "Dig Deeper into the Game with New Defensive and Hustle Data"

"Hustle Stats: Box Outs

The NBA introduced hustle stats during the 2016 Playoffs to finally measure the effort plays that “don’t always show up in the box score” but are so important for team success.
After beginning with deflections, loose ball recoveries, screen assists, charges drawn and contested shots, now box outs are available for all players and teams for the 2017-18 season.
The importance of boxing out an opponent has been drilled into basketball players from day one. When a shot goes up, don’t just stare at the ball and watch what happens, get a body on someone so you’re in position to secure the rebound in case the shot misses.
As expected there is a direct correlation between boxing out and rebounding. If a player ranks among the league leaders in rebounding, he’s most likely near the top of the rankings in box outs as well.
Top 10 Rebound Leaders (through games played on Feb. 14)
Andre Drummond: 15.7*
DeAndre Jordan: 15.0*
DeMarcus Cousins: 12.9
Dwight Howard: 12.6*
Karl-Anthony Towns: 12.1
Joel Embiid: 11.1
Clint Capela: 11.1
Anthony Davis: 10.7
Enes Kanter: 10.7*
Nikola Jokic: 10.5

Top 10 Box Out Leaders (through games played on Feb. 14)
Steven Adams: 11.3
Enes Kanter: 9.5*
DeAndre Jordan: 8.8*
Robin Lopez: 8.6
Marcin Gortat: 8.5
Andre Drummond: 8.2*
Ed Davis: 8.0
Rudy Gobert: 7.8
LaMarcus Aldridge: 7.7
Dwight Howard: 7.4*"
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Racism Is Simply Ignorant Period!!!!!!

Post  WTF on Sat May 26, 2018 11:58 am

My wish is that all African American athletes had the balls to sacrifice a years salary and sit out entire seasons. People should have the right to protest but I kind of understand because the protest is unrelated to the game itself.  The NFL had they kept this thing honest from jump street could have simply said this oppose to trying to be politically correct about it.  Had they just said Kap you can't do this because this protesting is a non football related issue I think he might have chose to handle it differently but it was all the racist out-cries that trigger all the push back and joining of players to join in.

**** that racist song and all this cop brutality but I can't go to work and decide to protest at work.  Kap could have formed other means of protest that might have been equally or more effective than kneeling IMO this only ignited the ignorance of racism.  

Matter of fact they might not have to sacrifice salaries if they go the doctor and say the mental stress of standing is effecting their ability to perform their jobs and let see how the NFL handles that one.  There's enough lead way here that they could effectively pull this off really it would be no different than being out for an injury and still getting paid.   

Racism Is Simply Ignorant Period!!!!! If people don't change this whole narrative from hating skin color to loving humanity than we're **** doomed anyway.  We are so close to the point of this thing blowing up on a global scale that it's crazy people aren't willing to change. If they think **** is ugly now it indeed gets a lot worse and there are no winners.
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NBA/NFL

Post  Sparma on Sat May 26, 2018 10:11 am

Good posts, Murph and BallinD. As part of the exchange you write: "[M:] Furthermore, the NBA owners require that players stand, and no one protests that.   [B:] True. Maybe the NBA is far more engaged with its fewer players and attentive to their concerns/but it is true"

Isn't the big difference there that the NBA policy came out a negotiated agreement? The players committed themselves to a policy of standing, along with significant penalties if they don't.

The NFL wants to take action, but wasn't willing to work on a negotiated settlement. Consequently, from the get go, it's unlikely that their unilateral action turns out well.



BallinD wrote:Good post Murph, on a difficult, nuanced topic.  

Murph wrote:I think the NFL owners have every right to require that their players stand for the National Anthem.  After all, the owners are running a business, and they're losing massive amounts of revenue due to the players protests.  And eventually, this revenue loss is going to trickle down to the players salaries.  Ahhhh, here comes the nuance.
Actually, unbiased, objective sources who have studied the subject objectively show that viewership is down for Cable TV in general across the board, including the NFL, not just the NFL.  As baby boomers age and die this trend will continue and most of these people dont even know who Colin Kaepernick is?  Meanwhile the millenials and those younger watch less Cable and you know, they do stuff on their phones and tablets, not sit in front of a TV all day drinking bud light!  That is the reality  We can't allow the narrative to be hijacked by loose facts that everyone repeats, but are they true?


Furthermore, the NBA owners require that players stand, and no one protests that.   True.  Maybe the NBA is far more engaged with its fewer players and attentive to their concerns/but it is true



HOWEVER, when I watch that clip of Sterling Brown getting tased by a mob of white Milwaukee cops simply because he's sitting in a nice Mercedes at 2 am, it makes me realize that the criminal justice system in this country has a long, long way to go.

I mean that guy is sitting in his car, completely minding his own business.  He gets out of the car when asked, is respectful to the cops, complies with their every request...and STILL gets thrown to the ground and tased.  That's insane.

Instead of illegally spying on presidential campaigns, the Department of Justice and the FBI need to do a detailed comprehensive review of the criminal justice system in this country, including the tactics of big city police departments, to address and root out the problem of systematic racism among cops and prosecutors.

And while they're at it, the DOJ and FBI need to address and find a solution for the inner city gun violence plaguing communities such as the South Side of Chicago.  I just don't believe that in this day and age we as a society cannot find a fair, workable solution to drastically reduce the murder rate in our inner cities, that does not rely on cops bullying and assaulting innocent bystanders.  Other cities, such as New York, have drastically reduced their murder rates over the decades, so we know it can be done.  Send in the Illinois National Guard to respectfully stand on every street corner, if that's what it takes.

It's a complicated issue with many, many levels of prejudice and racism that needs to be addressed.
 Well said.  One reason for the protests and marches is clear:  cell phone footage has highlighted so much racism in this country, and if there were a national requirement for cop body cams to be on and in use, and an objective review by police departments of the footage, the harsh light of truth would shine on the bad cops.  Also, we need to re-examine the militarization of cops (what does that do to their mentaility), look at more training, have them watch video of rogue cops asssaulting Black, Brown and White people as part of their training, and do better employment screening.   Police state AmeriKKKa benefits no one! black, brown, or white! IMO
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As The World Turns

Post  BallinD on Sat May 26, 2018 9:42 am

Good post Murph, on a difficult, nuanced topic.  

Murph wrote:I think the NFL owners have every right to require that their players stand for the National Anthem.  After all, the owners are running a business, and they're losing massive amounts of revenue due to the players protests.  And eventually, this revenue loss is going to trickle down to the players salaries.  Ahhhh, here comes the nuance.
Actually, unbiased, objective sources who have studied the subject objectively show that viewership is down for Cable TV in general across the board, including the NFL, not just the NFL.  As baby boomers age and die this trend will continue and most of these people dont even know who Colin Kaepernick is?  Meanwhile the millenials and those younger watch less Cable and you know, they do stuff on their phones and tablets, not sit in front of a TV all day drinking bud light!  That is the reality  We can't allow the narrative to be hijacked by loose facts that everyone repeats, but are they true?


Furthermore, the NBA owners require that players stand, and no one protests that.   True. Maybe the NBA is far more engaged with its fewer players and attentive to their concerns/but it is true



HOWEVER, when I watch that clip of Sterling Brown getting tased by a mob of white Milwaukee cops simply because he's sitting in a nice Mercedes at 2 am, it makes me realize that the criminal justice system in this country has a long, long way to go.

I mean that guy is sitting in his car, completely minding his own business.  He gets out of the car when asked, is respectful to the cops, complies with their every request...and STILL gets thrown to the ground and tased.  That's insane.

Instead of illegally spying on presidential campaigns, the Department of Justice and the FBI need to do a detailed comprehensive review of the criminal justice system in this country, including the tactics of big city police departments, to address and root out the problem of systematic racism among cops and prosecutors.

And while they're at it, the DOJ and FBI need to address and find a solution for the inner city gun violence plaguing communities such as the South Side of Chicago.  I just don't believe that in this day and age we as a society cannot find a fair, workable solution to drastically reduce the murder rate in our inner cities, that does not rely on cops bullying and assaulting innocent bystanders.  Other cities, such as New York, have drastically reduced their murder rates over the decades, so we know it can be done.  Send in the Illinois National Guard to respectfully stand on every street corner, if that's what it takes.

It's a complicated issue with many, many levels of prejudice and racism that needs to be addressed.
 Well said.  One reason for the protests and marches is clear:  cell phone footage has highlighted so much racism in this country, and if there were a national requirement for cop body cams to be on and in use, and an objective review by police departments of the footage, the harsh light of truth would shine on the bad cops.  Also, we need to re-examine the militarization of cops (what does that do to their mentaility), look at more training, have them watch video of rogue cops asssaulting Black, Brown and White people as part of their training, and do better employment screening.   Police state AmeriKKKa benefits no one! black, brown, or white! IMO
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NFL

Post  Murph on Sat May 26, 2018 8:55 am

I think the NFL owners have every right to require that their players stand for the National Anthem.  After all, the owners are running a business, and they're losing massive amounts of revenue due to the players protests.  And eventually, this revenue loss is going to trickle down to the players salaries.  

Furthermore, the NBA owners require that players stand, and no one protests that.



HOWEVER, when I watch that clip of Sterling Brown getting tased by a mob of white Milwaukee cops simply because he's sitting in a nice Mercedes at 2 am, it makes me realize that the criminal justice system in this country has a long, long way to go.

I mean that guy is sitting in his car, completely minding his own business.  He gets out of the car when asked, is respectful to the cops, complies with their every request...and STILL gets thrown to the ground and tased.  That's insane.



Instead of illegally spying on presidential campaigns, the Department of Justice and the FBI need to do a detailed comprehensive review of the criminal justice system in this country, including the tactics of big city police departments, to address and root out the problem of systematic racism among cops and prosecutors.

And while they're at it, the DOJ and FBI need to address and find a solution for the inner city gun violence plaguing communities such as the South Side of Chicago.  I just don't believe that in this day and age we as a society cannot find a fair, workable solution to drastically reduce the murder rate in our inner cities, that does not rely on cops bullying and assaulting innocent bystanders.  Other cities, such as New York, have drastically reduced their murder rates over the decades, so we know it can be done.  Send in the Illinois National Guard to respectfully stand on every street corner, if that's what it takes.



It's a complicated issue with many, many levels of prejudice and racism that needs to be addressed.
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Tom Gores is A TRASH OWNER

Post  Phil1980boy on Sat May 26, 2018 3:01 am

"Tom Gores who doesn't respect the old fan base."

Tom Gores is A TRASH OWNER..

He has no clue about Detroit Pistons basketball at all!! NONE! Let alone, the old school fan base!


It's not that he lacks respect. He has no knowledge of Pistons basketball to even respect the fans..

This is why he goes out and hires the most on paper, qualified WHITE MAN he can find.


Gores is just A RICH guy who has enough money to buy A NBA team. I wish this BUM would sale the Pistons to somebody who gives A S.H.I.T

I know everybody loves Billups but I can name one guy who will be A GREAT GM in the NBA as well as head coach.

Tayshaun Prince!




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Will Lemonpen change his Avatar?

Post  Oracle on Fri May 25, 2018 7:27 pm

Morgan Freeman is the latest target of the Me Too movement, as women are coming forward with many allegations.



The most disturbing allegation is that he had sex with his step-grandaughter... WOW!
https://nypost.com/2018/04/20/morgan-freeman-had-affair-with-step-granddaughter-alleged-murderer/ wrote:Before she was murdered, Morgan Freeman’s step-granddaughter told her boyfriend-turned-killer that the actor had been secretly sleeping with her — confirming years-old claims about the illicit affair, according to defense lawyers.


Oh MY!!!
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Political Correctness gone WILD... the sad case of the NFL

Post  Oracle on Fri May 25, 2018 7:15 pm

The people that complain about Political Correctness the most are the biggest offenders, and are the biggest hypocrites there are.

Taking a knee is an act of political incorrectness , so why don't these people love it? Because it's not their version.

Both sides demand political correctness, it's just about different things, the difference is that on side claims to believe that they aren't doing it... what a joke this country is becoming!

And yes, there is some racism is involved, but in general racism is a mechanism used by the inferior to cheat to get ahead and stay ahead by not having to compete against people that would otherwise beat them.

BTW, kudos to the Milwaukee Police for admitting that the officers were wrong, however, any punishment short of firing is too mild, IMO.
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Don...

Post  Oracle on Fri May 25, 2018 7:04 pm

Don, I've said my piece, there's no profit in a back and forth on this, the truth, as they say, is out there.
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Re: FORUM

Post  cool breeze on Fri May 25, 2018 4:31 pm

Oracle wrote:
Don wrote:WTF good job on this post. Why do I beat a dead horse relating to AD's value or lack of value to this Piston team? Why don't I let it go and instead maybe attack a guy on his rookie contract like SJ? First off i see SJ as a smart high IQ basketball player who just can't hit jump shots yet at a good enough percentage. Also, SJ doesn't make very much money compared to AD and RJ the two players I want off this Piston team as soon as possible. Finally, I do not believe SJ will be around for long relating to playing with the Pistons long term. This team has a payroll problem with a roster full of holes.
@Don, you are stunningly full of crap on this! So why in the world did you constantly attack KCP all through his rookie contract? He was 10 times the player Stanley is, made almost no money, but was regularly attacked by you, just like Drummond.

For somebody that claims to have played the game, you appear to know nothing about why players get played and why they don't. People didn't like Singler getting PT, but coaches loved him, why? Stanley gets PT for a reason, and KCP gets played major minutes by every coach he had here and by Luke Walton... WHY?

If you knew anything about basketball, you'd know the reasons were the same. Coaches will always play players that execute the game plan, give them constant solid effort and that work and play hard. They'll play these players even if there may be others just as good or better if they don't deliver said qualities because it sets a tone and standard... they call that coaching Don!

@Wise - I don't ever recall calling Drummond a great center, but I do believe he WILL be close to one in time with the proper coaching.

However, there is a HUGE difference between your criticism of players vs Don. Don launched personal attacks at the players. It's not enough to criticize their play, he needs to question their intelligence and at times question how good a person they are. his attacks are both ugly and nasty.
 

@Murph - The Raptors over reacted to losing to LeBron. Teams simply have matchup problems with other teams. Orlando for years just couldn't beat the Pistons for whatever reason. We struggled with Utah, no matter how bad they were, these things just happen. If not for the Cavs, the Raptors likely would be in the finals this year.

So I agree, Casey will be fine if we're not going to reach into the deep well of talent in our past greats.

BTW, the east is pitiful, the real finals is happening over in the West, whoever wins there is the next champ!

You are the expert Oracle. I bow to you. Bless you my son. I am no good. I am the villain. Now that I have suffered a proper beating on to reality about the Pistons.

Pope was a victim of SVG's insane offense where the 2 guard needs to wear a blanket when to stay warm while standing like a statue on the baseline beyond the 3 point line. While Pope slept, RJ dribbled around looking for AD knowing the owner wanted AD to be the star player and show off those exciting dunks. The Father - Son sickness that has plagued the team for years destroyed Pope's offensive advancement much like the other players who played during Pope's tenure and beyond. Pope was not a good passer or driver in his time with Detroit. Could he do those things better if the point guard included him more in the offense other than throwing a bone to him once and awhile so he could shoot a 3 point shot? Maybe but who knows. Pope's job was to play defense but he was not good enough to limit players like Wall or Beal in their matchups. On the other hand, Johnson overcame limited ability to play defense in college and turned himself into a really good on the ball defender. So to me Pope is not a player I get excited about now like you. In fact if Morris had played the 2 or 3, he would be far more valuable than either Pope or Johnson. To this day, I believe Pope is an average player at best. Johnson is an average player at best. Morris is better than both of them. You pull for Pope and I for Johnson and it is all good. We want the best for them. It is good to have favorites and helps pass the time when you have to watch a dull low basketball IQ team play basketball. The low IQ came into play with the Pistons because AD and RJ dominated the leadership and minutes. Smart players know the value of playing tough defense. Both Pope and Johnson at least had the desire to do that.

If players get playing time by coaches based on their history of executing the game plan then explain how AD became the franchise player and dominated minutes when until this past season he could not be trusted by coaches in the 4th quarter of games? In the NBA and especially with the Pistons, playing time is determined by the size of a player's contract not their effectiveness as players. If they are slackers who cares they will still be in the starting lineup. The exception this season was Lanston Galloway who was benched for a significant period of time by SVG but given another insane contract. When our $10 million dollar a year player Jon Leuer was not injured, there was no hesitation by the head coach to insert him into the rotation regardless of how badly he played. He couldn't defend power forwards so SVG tried him at center. " Jon is a valuable piece". How about two seasons ago when Reggie Jackson returned to action after his injury. Jackson was the worst point guard in the entire NBA including 2nd or 3rd string point guards who never got to play. He was horrible but still started. Did that have anything to do with his contract amount or the fact that AD wanted him in the lineup? Remember when RJ went through a pouting streak where he made it a point of refusing to shoot the basketball or play any defense at all? Finally SVG was so embarrassed that he told the press that due to RJ's injuries he would not play any more games of course after the Pistons had no chance of making the playoffs.

Finally, if there was ever a player who either ignored the game plan, or never bothered to look at the specific game plan, or studied the game plan but didn't understand the game plan, it would be Andre Drummond. AD played his game all the time. There was never any adjustment. In his mind no adjustments were necessary until he came up against players like Anthony Davis. Then maybe AD lost some sleep after another beating. Oracle the NBA is showtime where a lot of players like AD just show up especially teams like the Pistons who have a low fan base and limited ability to win games anyway. I was just reading about Bill Russell who used to throw up before every game because he was worried about his matchup and how he would perform. Russell worried a lot about how he would perform and what advantages and disadvantages he would have in each game against the player he would be matched up with on defense. That is rare but I am sure Bill Russell has no regrets now because he always played his heart out. I'll bet that AD has never in his life worried about anything but getting his dance steps down in pre game especially after signing that big contract. Who knows if he will have regrets because there is still time for him to change. AD could be a beast if he knew how to prepare his mind and resolve his concentration issues and actually love playing defense. I don't enjoy watching players like AD regardless of how many dunks they might make so I have no regrets about continuing to make my point that he needs to be traded for the good of the team now.

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Re: FORUM

Post  cool breeze on Fri May 25, 2018 3:43 pm

WTF wrote:
cool breeze wrote:WTF good job on this post. Why do I beat a dead horse relating to AD's value or lack of value to this Piston team? Why don't I let it go and instead maybe attack a guy on his rookie contract like SJ? First off i see SJ as a smart high IQ basketball player who just can't hit jump shots yet at a good enough percentage. Also, SJ doesn't make very much money compared to AD and RJ the two players I want off this Piston team as soon as possible. Finally, I do not believe SJ will be around for long relating to playing with the Pistons long term. This team has a payroll problem with a roster full of holes.

No Don just beat both horses equally that all most are asking on this forum.  No SJ is making the insane money of Drummond but that does buy him a free ticket to not be equally criticized.   First he's a lottery pick that's currently not living up to expectation especially in comparison to similar lottery  picks over the past 3 seasons so SJ doesn't get a free pass.   Maybe he should have been a 2nd round pick or an undrafted rookie instead of a lottery pick then perhaps all these excuses you offer up for him would carry more weight.   

Also just because no one else is beating the same drum on trading Drummond doesn't mean we wouldn't.  I think most of us said if the right deal came along and it was good for the team we would have no problem with trading him. 


Sparma wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong, and at 60 I may well be, but I don't think I've ever said that Drummond is a great center. I do think he's undeniably great as an offensive rebounder, and pretty clearly as a rebounder in general. But bear in mind that I've repeatedly said that his game is seriously flawed. That's why I hope I've never uttered as a general statement: Drummond's a great center.

Sparma if not directly than indirectly perhaps you have called him a great center or I could just be coming to this conclusion based on comments that he's better than both Ben and Bill who were great centers.  I don't think many of us here underrate Drummond with the exception of Don,  I think I've rated him honestly and that my criticism of him is fair and accurate.   It's okay if you see a future HOF as it is okay that I see players 2 years behind still in his development mostly on the mental aspect on his game.   Just think it's too early to put HOF and Drummond in the same sentence when he has as many flaws in his game and his team is losing.   

Like I said those rebounding stats look really awesome and mean much more if they lead to W's.

My only purpose of exposing AD is for purposes of creating motivation for fans to demand that the Pistons start rebuilding now rather than later. To me trading AD at this time is a no brainer. The Pistons have nothing to lose and a lot to gain. AD is under contract for a long time and the price gets higher every year. SJ will be gone soon. I have been critical of his horrible jump shot release. That release he picked up from Piston assistant coaches has caused most of his problems relating to low shooting percentage. Throwing out the difference of contracts between AD and RJ and time time remaining on those contracts, I see more potential for SJ in the long run than I do relating to AD. SJ was not a good defender in his one season in college with the exception of his smarts late in games where he managed to get big steals that turned into easy points when points were hard to come by. Somehow SJ turned himself into a very good defender when he wanted to be. SJ has become a good passer as an NBA player too. He does a lot of the little things like clogging up the paint when the center is out of position out beyond the free throw line on defense. I see SJ as a potentially high basketball IQ player. That is what he was known for before playing for SVG.

Fans should never have high expectations if their team is drafting in the 7th position or worse in the first round. It is always a gamble. I know Detroit could have drafted the amazing 2 guard who plays for the Suns. That was a mistake. But how long has it been since our Pistons picked higher than the 7th position? Also it will be two seasons now in recent years where our team doesn't even get a number one pick because we have idiots running the management part of the Pistons. Most of the elite teams who are in the playoffs have players who were high draft picks. Smart GMs and owners watch their team and get realistic about just what they have and decide to blow the team up at all cost and get their team in position to get the top talent in the draft. The only season Detroit had a really high pick they picked the chain smoking Darko instead of Wade or Anthony. Stanley Johnson was not a top 5 pick. He was a gamble not a sure thing. Still it will be another blunder if the Pistons do not get a good player for Johnson in a trade or sign him to a new reasonable contract. Every playoff team needs elite defenders like Johnson. He will not have any problem finding a new job after this season. So why do I need to be hard on him? AD will be back. The owner loves him. I want to trade our owner for Cleveland's owner. That would be the best thing that could happen now.

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Post  Oracle on Fri May 25, 2018 3:15 pm

Don wrote:WTF good job on this post. Why do I beat a dead horse relating to AD's value or lack of value to this Piston team? Why don't I let it go and instead maybe attack a guy on his rookie contract like SJ? First off i see SJ as a smart high IQ basketball player who just can't hit jump shots yet at a good enough percentage. Also, SJ doesn't make very much money compared to AD and RJ the two players I want off this Piston team as soon as possible. Finally, I do not believe SJ will be around for long relating to playing with the Pistons long term. This team has a payroll problem with a roster full of holes.
@Don, you are stunningly full of crap on this! So why in the world did you constantly attack KCP all through his rookie contract? He was 10 times the player Stanley is, made almost no money, but was regularly attacked by you, just like Drummond.

For somebody that claims to have played the game, you appear to know nothing about why players get played and why they don't. People didn't like Singler getting PT, but coaches loved him, why? Stanley gets PT for a reason, and KCP gets played major minutes by every coach he had here and by Luke Walton... WHY?

If you knew anything about basketball, you'd know the reasons were the same. Coaches will always play players that execute the game plan, give them constant solid effort and that work and play hard. They'll play these players even if there may be others just as good or better if they don't deliver said qualities because it sets a tone and standard... they call that coaching Don!

@Wise - I don't ever recall calling Drummond a great center, but I do believe he WILL be close to one in time with the proper coaching.

However, there is a HUGE difference between your criticism of players vs Don. Don launched personal attacks at the players. It's not enough to criticize their play, he needs to question their intelligence and at times question how good a person they are. his attacks are both ugly and nasty.
 

@Murph - The Raptors over reacted to losing to LeBron. Teams simply have matchup problems with other teams. Orlando for years just couldn't beat the Pistons for whatever reason. We struggled with Utah, no matter how bad they were, these things just happen. If not for the Cavs, the Raptors likely would be in the finals this year.

So I agree, Casey will be fine if we're not going to reach into the deep well of talent in our past greats.

BTW, the east is pitiful, the real finals is happening over in the West, whoever wins there is the next champ!
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Post  cool breeze on Fri May 25, 2018 3:11 pm

Murph wrote:As long as the Pistons are not going to hire Zeke, C-Bill, Laimbeer, Mahorn, etc, I think Dwane Casey is a good choice.  He could never get the Raptors to the next level, but realistically speaking, the Raptors probably never had the personnel to beat Lebron and the Cavs.  

If we can't have a former Piston as coach, Casey is probably the next best thing.  He took over a dreadful Raptors team, and took them to the playoffs 5 years in a row.


I don't want Stanley Johnson off the roster.  But I would like to see him come off the bench as a defensive specialist.  I think the Pistons should use him the way they used Rodman in their first Championship run, by bringing him off the bench for Aguirre.  The Pistons should start Bullock at SF, and bring Johnson off the bench to guard the opposing team's best wing player.  

However, Johnson simple must stop shooting 3 pointers, and really, he should stop shooting beyond about 12 feet out.  SJ needs to score all of his points on offensive rebounds or by slashing to the basket for dunks and layups.  


Don...I don't know how or why it happens, but opposing teams have trouble scoring when Drummond is in the game.  You know way more about basketball than I do, so maybe you can explain it to me.

Are you attempting to bate me into another rant about AD's faults? Damn it all you tricked again into spending more time in a useless endeavor. Murph watch the games than you will know. When do teams have problems scoring with AD is in the game? It was in the first and third quarters two years ago and first quarter a lot this past season with a sprinkle of slacking throughout most games on defense last season but he did play stronger in the 4th in the last campaign. AD's man would beat him easily into the painted area for a pass or a driver could get in for a layup unopposed because our big guy was jogging back instead of running hard like the engaged players do. One of my issues with AD Is his failure to screen out board crashers in the 4th quarter when games are on the line? This is a true statement that I am not exaggerating Murph. I have yet to see AD box out on the defensive boards. Every opponent coaching staff knows that about AD. Either his mind goes blank and old bad habits kick in or he just doesn't think it is important or he just isn't "engaged" in those moments when opponent shots go up. or or or or. Who in hell knows but his lack of proper instincts on defense really hurts the chances of his team to win games. AD's teammates try to compensate for AD's failure to rotate properly or switch at the wrong time to force players like Smith to guard a center in the paint. Those are real situations that happened over and over.

Maybe if AD is not traded Blake Griffin who has good basketball instincts and quick recognitions skills on defense can help hide AD on defense or perhaps get AD more excited about becoming an elite defender. Physically AD has been born with special gifts. He has really good quickness when he wants to show it. I have seen him go out on guards for short moments and work his feet to prevent dribble penetration. There is no doubt that he could be the Second Coming relating as a shot blocker or acquire the foot work it takes to get supreme positioning so players like Whiteside would not be able to get a game winning tip in over AD's shoulder. But according to some of the assistant coaches AD had at UCONN, trying to get AD motivated to improving his mental approach to playing defense was impossible. I think AD got in foul trouble in UCONN's opening NCAA tournament game early on in the first half after the coaches talked to AD about staying out of foul trouble before the game started.
(That is like the situation when the Pistons were in the playoffs with a 2 point lead with only a few seconds left in the game. Kevin O'Neill told the Pistons brain dead point guard at the time to make sure you don't get deep in the paint on the strong side and allow Eric Snow to drift into the wing beyond the 3 point line on the weak side. The team goes out and O'Neill yells out to the Piston's point guard, don't forget stay on Snow. The ball will go to Snow. Sure enough Snow was wide open to receive the pass and made a 3 point shot to put his team ahead.)
If AD could change the construction of his brain and believe that it is more fun to be successful on defense than offense, listen to coaches and study the specific game plan from game to game, then AD's value to the Pistons would be fantastic and I for sure would not want him traded at any cost.

But stats are very misleading. You have to see how opponents play against AD and how they are successful against him. Players like Anthony Davis just kick the crap out of AD. They attack him knowing he doesn't have a clue. If you get a chance watch AD go up against Davis next season. In the last game of the season Eric Moreland started and had incredible stats in that game. Moreland does have the right instincts to be an elite defender. He is far superior to AD relating to knowing what to do. Moreland's problem is lack of weight. If only Eric could gain about 25 pounds and AD could lose that same amount and enjoy playing defense like Moreland the Pistons would be solid at the center position. Again my attacks on AD involve my desire for the team to trade him for a high number one draft pick and some other promising players on cheaper or expiring contracts. It would be exciting to watch some young smart players lose instead of the same old thing again. Some of us call our highly paid players under achievers but in truth maybe our players are over achieving and doing about as well has they possibly can do. That is what I am thinking now. Nobody wants to lose but these players lose to other NBA players who get the best of them in big games. Often the Pistons win give away games when opponents are on a long road trip or are tanking. In the big meaningful games, our players come up short and usually those games are not even close. So who is fooling who?

Maybe Tom Gores will see the light after another year of of an empty arena. The people of Detroit have made it clear that they do not like this Piston team. They don't bother to post their thoughts. Maybe they are watching NCAA men & women's golf championships on the golf channel. Very exciting stuff. Few people really care if the Pistons move to another city. Maybe that will happen. Who can blame the people of Detroit for not buying more tickets? But it is sad even for the highly paid players to see that nobody wants to watch them including the kids who get free tickets maybe because their parents don't want them to pick up bad habits. And at one time the Pistons led the league in attendance. What the hell has happened? Did it all start when Joe Dumars signed Charlie V. Is that when the slacking started and Piston management forgot about the Bad Boys and Mr. BigShot and how they once played?

Remember the troops this weekend please.

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