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If you read the Free Press article relating to the two men Tom Gores has hired to find a new coach, then imagine making Isiah Thomas coming in for a tryout or for that matter any coach who is worth a crap

Post  cool breeze on Wed May 30, 2018 5:15 pm

The Pistons will hire a real beauty next time around. What former head coach or highly ranked college coach would agree to come to the arena and show these two stooges how they would run the first practice and more? Another consulting fiasco is in the works because this owner does not have the pulse of the City of Detroit or know anything about basketball other than throwing out tee shirts to keep fan interest. If there are some good coaches still available why would they put themselves through a day of mind games trying to sell Tom Gores two experts how they would run a practice and answer questions that would be insulting for a highly ranked high school coach. Prove to me that you know how to coach? This reminds me of an interview I had in Detroit when I was about to graduate where an obnoxious older man in a silk suit and pointed shoes told me to sell him his chair when I was being interviewed for a medical supply rep job. I already had been offered a good higher paying job but had driven a long distance to attend the interview so I went along with the request but half way though noticed this guy was getting off putting me in a difficult situation. so I stopped and said I am not longer interested in your open job. it is just too difficult to attempt to sell the ugly chair that you picked out for your office.

Would any self respecting coach come in for an interview? How about Bill Laimbeer or Isiah Thomas who are of course off Tom Gores list because they might be too hard on Andre Drummond. Maybe the biggest question will be for the loser they will end up hiring will be "will you be kind to RJ and AD in practice and not force them to run any conditioning drills? Will you promise not to tell Reggie Jackson that he is hogging the ball too much and slacking on defense? Will you as a coach personally bring out snacks to our highest paid athletes next season so they can be engaged? The owner is looking for a coach who will just show up and throw out the basketball. He does not want any of the Bad Boys who can be cruel at times to sloppy poorly engaged players. And for sure Billups is excluded too because he might be too bossy. These to experts Tom Gores hired might want the job themselves knowing that it won't be possible to discipline the highest paid players so the owner will have low expectations again because the happiness of his core players is dear to the owner's heart. Who will kiss the players asses this time around? Do a good job at that and you are solid for the next 3 years.

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Stinking Up The Joint

Post  BallinD on Wed May 30, 2018 2:58 pm

DX, if they rehire Bower, or as has been stated, they retain a significant portion of the scouting and administrative team that brought in Galloway to back up Weggie, that signed Leuer, that went out to get Boban, that brought in fricking Jameer Nelson, there should be a mini-mutiny in Detroit; talk about Bufoonery!  Breaking the bank for middling talent.  How did Arn Tellem let this sh!t fly; doesnt he know BBAll and personell; and yes, I know he is on the business side, but Bufoonery is Bufoonery!

OTOH, if they could turn broken Jennings and Illyasova into Tobias. they can probably get rid of Weggie w/o throwing in a draft pick.  Go do it. And as much as I know we need to draft a PG, unless an underrated  high ceilinged, lanky, explosive, high BBIQ prospect is waiting in our lap, we need to draft the best talent available and realize there is no quick fix for this mess Gores!!!

BTW, Oracle and anybody else who cares, I agree wholeheartedly that LeBron is the GOAT because he has the production, makes his teamates better, and especially is by far the most complete player.
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It's a shame

Post  Sparma on Wed May 30, 2018 1:59 pm

that you weren't named as GM of the Red Sox, Cubs, and Astros, or all three, during the past 20 years, Wise. Your line of thinking would have been good news for all of their competitors, including the Tigers.

WTF wrote:
Oracle wrote:I think the issues come with some of the advanced stats, which people come up with to better understand facets of the game, but SHOULD be taken with a grain of salt.

I think they're used to conjure up meaningless debate or perhaps to tell us something other than what we're really seeing.  Real athletes don't want to be measured by numbers but by victories and championships.  Stats are a bonus and only bring athletes a small amount of pleasure and athletes understand how empty numbers are if not accompanied with championships, if not a great deal of career success.     

Don't get me wrong there's nothing wrong with individual accomplishments and athletes are okay with that but I doubt if they buy into the theories of advance stats.  

I believe advance stats are a farce that lead to falsehood and the belief of them.
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Advance Stats Are Useless

Post  WTF on Wed May 30, 2018 11:25 am

Oracle wrote:I think the issues come with some of the advanced stats, which people come up with to better understand facets of the game, but SHOULD be taken with a grain of salt.

I think they're used to conjure up meaningless debate or perhaps to tell us something other than what we're really seeing.  Real athletes don't want to be measured by numbers but by victories and championships.  Stats are a bonus and only bring athletes a small amount of pleasure and athletes understand how empty numbers are if not accompanied with championships, if not a great deal of career success.     

Don't get me wrong there's nothing wrong with individual accomplishments and athletes are okay with that but I doubt if they buy into the theories of advance stats.  

I believe advance stats are a farce that lead to falsehood and the belief of them.
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Where do we go from here?

Post  deusXango on Wed May 30, 2018 3:09 am

Does anyone want Reggie Jackson, and what would they give for his services?
Can any fan imagine a trade involving Jon Leuer?

This is not my typical Jackson/Leuer bashing (I know it comes off like that to some but, in my mind I honestly hold the best interest of the Pistons) but it's not; if the incoming coach has to hinge his hopes of the teams success on Jackson, as SVG did, and Leuer is to find himself returned to the rotation, well, "if you always do what you always did, you'll always get what you always got." If there's no interest anywhere in the NBA for our starting PG and one time starting forward, whoever is tapped to be our next GM is hamstrung from the get go, faced with doing something stupid, out of desperation, like trading a 24 year old Drummond. Trade Drummond simply because he has value and hold onto a selfish, ball hogging, PG, that nobody in the league see any value in, make good sense? Say it ain't so. Some love to harp on Drummond's contract but, Reggie ain't doing volunteer work (more like stealing money for the time he spends on the sideline).

Tayshaun's name has come up again as a possible front office exec and if it's as GM, I don't see Reggie and Jon sticking around, if for no other reason, I can't see them playing their game for Rick Carlisle, Flip Saunders, or he who taught "play the right way," Larry Brown....these are the coaches who impacted on great players, both starters and bench players, who Tayshaun played with. The challenge is going to be getting the value out of Drummond and Griffin while we have them, not carrying a middling player because he's popular among a few. This is a business and the business is winning!

I'm going to continue to beat the drum calling for the return of Arnie Kander, who was the first team change SVG made (showing him to the door; Arnie didn't quit or retire on his own terms), and injuries have plagued the team every since. Recovery time has never been as slow as it was under the Van Gundy regime; Grant Hill left us (wanted to hire Arnie away from the Pistons as his personal trainer; that nagging ankle) but Arnie remained and was one of the most valuable members of the team during our historic run...he kept our players healthy and on the floor. Every member of the "Going To Work Crew" know the value of Mr. Arnie Kander. Tayshaun "Cry Baby" Prince, was here and benefited from the mans arcane skills.
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BallinD/ Media/ Coach

Post  Sparma on Tue May 29, 2018 9:26 pm

You know a lot more than I do about media coverage, BallinD.  I'd draw a comparison between Vince Ellis and Greg Kelser.  Kelser's directly a team guy in a way that Ellis isn't (although I think there are intertwined interests between teams and papers: how stimulated would an average fan be to read the sports section if they keep reading how lousy their team is [then again, we do return to this fan forum that's not exactly a font of positivity.])  I think, and maybe others disagree, that Kelser manages to slip in his frank assessments graciously (like: I'm not sure that's the shot that SVG would have wanted Stanley to take there).  His take is rosy, but it's not without honest, and negative, assessments, lightly presented.  To me, Langlois is the guy with inside dope who comes close to being dishonest in his ongoing PR spin.  

Hasn't Ellis gotten angry at the charge that he presents a company line?  My sense is that he really knows what's going on, that he's in there talking with a bunch of players, but that he's cautious about how he presents things, maybe for temperamental reasons, maybe because of newspaper pressures, but in part to retain access to his sources.  He's got a tough balancing act to pull off, and I think he does that fairly well.  In a different market, he might have a different manner to match regional expectations.  I definitely seem to be going against the stream in defending him, along with one or two others, like Beard, so maybe I'm off.

I see your point about the Casey coverage in the article.  I heard of his troubles in Toronto, that you sketch effectively, on the radio; they're no secret, but if he's hired and the local media cover over his weaknesses that will be a problem.  Not an exciting hire from my point of view, but I'd be okay with it.  My hope would be that he's learned from his experiences in Toronto, eg, that ball distribution's the way to go even if that was forced on him.

A couple of off the wall ideas.  Listening to Tall Tales, they recount Bill Russell being hired to replace Red Auerbach, mainly because he was thought to be the best person to coach Bill Russell.  This won't happen, but I'd be curious to watch Blake Griffin coaching Blake Griffin and co.  Star players used to be hired as player-managers in baseball (wasn't Ty Cobb one, Joe Cronin, Lou Boudreau, Rogers Hornsby, Tris Speaker?), but can't remember the last one.

My second wild idea is more tenable.  I've been listening to a bio of Jurgen Klopp, one of soccer's great managers, maybe the best at doing more with less, at Dortmund, then Liverpool [btw, that was the worst goalkeeping ever in a big game, Saturday vs Real Madrid].  He got his start at Mainz, where he was an okay player.  Mainz decided to get rid of their coach, but didn't know what to do next.  They liked the idea of the players coaching themselves, but still wanted one to be the leader.  Klopp became coach in a flukish, even shocking way, but did well from game 1.

I wonder if Anthony Tolliver would succeed as player-coach.  He seems to be a genuine leader already.  He demonstrated a calm and constructive manner in post game statements, as opposed to the master of panic.  He knows how to play D.  He seems like a smart guy, willing to learn.  Whereas you couldn't provide Blake enough of a financial incentive for him to even consider coaching, hiring Tolliver as player-coach could be a way to retain his services in Detroit.  Otherwise, I think he's departing with Leuer on his way into the rotation.  Not going to happen, but I'd be more excited by a hire like that than the retread that's likely.

I'm sorry to see that Battier turned us down, but not surprised.  

BallinD wrote:
Sparma wrote: @Sparma:  I'm not mad at ya, but I'm not mellow on this either.  I'd argue that SVG focused too much on player relationships for some players (Weggie/AB, KCP (take any bad shot you want KCP, AB, and Dre, you can post up till the cows come home, even though Stevie Wonder and Ray Charles could see it didn't work, yet he was the Master of Panic and the Maniac of Appeasement, particularly with Weggie who he encouraged to pound the ball all day long.

Like Murph, I'd be ok with a Casey appointment.  The News article on him [by contrast with SVG] "building player relationships" was favorable (that is true, but also a Narrative designed to obfuscate). I'd forgotten the bit of him being part of a pay for play accusation at U of Kentucky.  Again, that wouldn't be an exciting appointment, but I could see us getting decent results with him.  He would be a slight step-up on SVG, but: No. No. No!  Who needs favorable, how about tell it like it is?  No mention of why Casey was fired (stubborn, unable to make adjustments, had to be dragged kicking and screaming to modernize the Raptors offense last year). Not prone to make in-game adjustments (sound like anyone we know?!) That is straight up piss poor journalism not even to address the obvious questions!

Clearly, I think more highly of Ellis and Beard than do others.  I think they let you know sotto voce that, eg, Stan's manner didn't go over well, making Casey a fitting potential replacement.  They don't race to announce the dirt as may happen in other towns, (but especially they never question the official "Narrative) but I respect their restraint befitting the Midwest.
If you can't see the dirt, you'll never get the house clean!"
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Everybody uses stats because they're the most important thing in the game!

Post  Oracle on Tue May 29, 2018 9:11 pm

Ever use the score of a game? What about blocks, rebounds or ppg? They're all stats we use and without them, you'd never know who won.

I think the issues come with some of the advanced stats, which people come up with to better understand facets of the game, but SHOULD be taken with a grain of salt.

Unlike the stats I led off with, which are ABSOLUTE stats, meaning that they can't be argued, advanced stats are subject to a lot of interpretation.

However, this is very similar to real life. People are into camps, liberal or conservative where both look to solve every problem with only the tools in their own toolbox.

In reality, the country sometimes needs conservative solutions and sometimes it need liberal/progressive solutions, and sometimes a combination of both. We used to understand that, but now everybody is stuck into tribes and communication is next to zero.

Advanced stats are similar, sometimes you need them, but that doesn't mean you ignore the absolute stats or the time honored eye test. IMO, the eye test would have had us select Melo instead of Darko, and also IMO, that would have helped Melo become a better more rounded player. He was the type of player that Larry Brown would have loved to make better, and LB may have stayed here longer as well.
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Stats

Post  Sparma on Tue May 29, 2018 7:30 pm

Glad to see that you're warming up to using stats for purposes of comparison, WTF!

WTF: "I'm not shocked but theses stats would lay some small amount of claim that AD isn't above Ben or Bill.  However I prefer using the Eye Test from memory and actual results.   It does validate my argument that numbers really don't matter much if they don't result in wins.  Ironic using numbers would prove using numbers are often overstated."

I'm thinking there are three basic Bill & Ben > Andre arguments: a) eye test, b) team success, and c) total career success compared to Andre at 24.

I think there's merit to the first 2, but that we need to be very careful with the third. btw, I'm not intending here to go against the stats Murph raises.

For instance, if one person has earned a million, while another has earned half a million, that's significant. But we also want to know about averages and length of time. Or, turning to sports, we can say, in one sense, that Al Kaline, sitting on 399 HRs is a better HR hitter than Mike Trout, but in other senses (never having hit 30 in a season; having had a lengthy career to get to his tally) he clearly isn't.

With the Pistons' Cs, I'm going to need to do this quickly now, but we see Drummond at .158 WS/36, Laim at 1.49 WS/36, Ben at .140 WS/36.

Averages can be misleading though. For instance, to bring out Koufax's greatness, we want to look at his established peak performance, not just career average. Just looking at career averages could be unfair to Bill and Ben, because there can be a long period of decline.

In short, I agree with Bill James's 1st Historical Baseball Abstract that you BOTH want to look at career production and at peak production. For instance, Denny McLain was ranked (as I remember) the 7th best RH pitcher at peak performance, but his career was basically over at 26.

Just quickly eyeballing the peak WS performances, it looks like Bill scores close to 10 WS per season for about 7 seasons. Looks like Ben does a tad better, but for a shorter peak of 5 seasons. Andre's behind them in peak performance in WS! Except for this year, so we'll want to see how his career unfolds. He did lead the league in defensive WS, which I wonder if Ben did, but can't check now.

In all: a) Bill & Ben, no surprise, ahead of Andre in career WS, b) Andre ahead of both of them in WS/36, and c) both Ben and Bill ahead of him in peak performance in WS, with the caveat that Andre's on par (ahead of Bill?, behind Ben?) in this year's WS, if that's indicative of peak performance for a 24y.o. (Ben & Bill came into their peaks relatively late).

Interesting stuff.
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Re: FORUM

Post  Murph on Tue May 29, 2018 7:25 pm

WTF wrote:
Murph wrote:
Observations:  The length of a players career as a Pistons is very important.

I'm not shocked but theses stats would lay some small amount of claim that AD isn't above Ben or Bill.  However I prefer using the Eye Test from memory and actual results.   It does validate my argument that numbers really don't matter much if they don't result in wins.  Ironic using numbers would prove using numbers are often overstated.

Wise...I agree.  Drummond isn't as good as Bill, Ben or Bob, yet.  

But Drummond is only 24 years old, and has only played in 6 seasons.  Bill, Ben and Bob are retired.
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Of Course It's A Trigger LMAO

Post  WTF on Tue May 29, 2018 6:45 pm

Murph wrote:Disclaimer:  For those who don't want to get triggered by reading a post on advanced stats, please disregard.

2nd Disclaimer:  I think win shares are a somewhat arbitrary (although useful) stat.  Win Shares take the total number of wins by a team, and then attempt to divide them among the players, based on their statistical performance.

Anyway, here are the top 10 Pistons based on career win shares.

Total Career Win Shares.

1. Bill Laimbeer 98.4
2. Bob Lanier* 91.6
3. Joe Dumars* 86.2
4. Isiah Thomas* 80.7
5. Chauncey Billups 73.6
6. Ben Wallace 65.9
7. Grant Hill* 60.0
8. Tayshaun Prince 57.6
9. Larry Foust 57.5
10. Dave Bing* 56.0


Total Offensive Win Shares.

1. Joe Dumars* 63.1
2. Bob Lanier* 62.4
3. Chauncey Billups 54.0
4. Bill Laimbeer 51.7
5. Bailey Howell* 42.9
6. Isiah Thomas* 41.2
7. Dave Bing* 38.0
8. Larry Foust 36.4
9. Grant Hill* 36.2
10. George Yardley* 34.7


Total Defensive Win Shares.

1. Ben Wallace 49.0
2. Bill Laimbeer 46.7
3. Isiah Thomas* 39.5
4. Dennis Rodman* 30.0
5. Bob Lanier* 29.1
6. Andre Drummond 26.6
7. Rasheed Wallace 24.6
8. Grant Hill* 23.8
9. Tayshaun Prince 23.7
10. Joe Dumars* 23.1


Observations:  The length of a players career as a Pistons is very important.

I am shocked that Bill Laimbeer is the most valuable Pistons to ever suit up, based on total win shares.   Apparently, Bill had a unique combination of being very productive, both offensively and defensively.

I am also shocked that Joe Dumars was ranked so high based on offensive win shares, but ranked so low based on defensive win shares.  I would have guessed the reverse.


I'm not shocked but theses stats would lay some small amount of claim that AD isn't above Ben or Bill.  However I prefer using the Eye Test from memory and actual results.   It does validate my argument that numbers really don't matter much if they don't result in wins.  Ironic using numbers would prove using numbers are often overstated.
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Career Win Shares

Post  Murph on Tue May 29, 2018 4:34 pm

Disclaimer:  For those who don't want to get triggered by reading a post on advanced stats, please disregard.

2nd Disclaimer:  I think win shares are a somewhat arbitrary (although useful) stat.  Win Shares take the total number of wins by a team, and then attempt to divide them among the players, based on their statistical performance.

Anyway, here are the top 10 Pistons based on career win shares.

Total Career Win Shares.

1. Bill Laimbeer 98.4
2. Bob Lanier* 91.6
3. Joe Dumars* 86.2
4. Isiah Thomas* 80.7
5. Chauncey Billups 73.6
6. Ben Wallace 65.9
7. Grant Hill* 60.0
8. Tayshaun Prince 57.6
9. Larry Foust 57.5
10. Dave Bing* 56.0


Total Offensive Win Shares.

1. Joe Dumars* 63.1
2. Bob Lanier* 62.4
3. Chauncey Billups 54.0
4. Bill Laimbeer 51.7
5. Bailey Howell* 42.9
6. Isiah Thomas* 41.2
7. Dave Bing* 38.0
8. Larry Foust 36.4
9. Grant Hill* 36.2
10. George Yardley* 34.7


Total Defensive Win Shares.

1. Ben Wallace 49.0
2. Bill Laimbeer 46.7
3. Isiah Thomas* 39.5
4. Dennis Rodman* 30.0
5. Bob Lanier* 29.1
6. Andre Drummond 26.6
7. Rasheed Wallace 24.6
8. Grant Hill* 23.8
9. Tayshaun Prince 23.7
10. Joe Dumars* 23.1


Observations:  The length of a players career as a Pistons is very important.

I am shocked that Bill Laimbeer is the most valuable Pistons to ever suit up, based on total win shares.   Apparently, Bill had a unique combination of being very productive, both offensively and defensively.

I am also shocked that Joe Dumars was ranked so high based on offensive win shares, but ranked so low based on defensive win shares.  I would have guessed the reverse.
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Re: FORUM

Post  Murph on Tue May 29, 2018 3:39 pm

Oracle wrote:
Murph wrote:The real cause of the problem is that the criminal justice system in this country remains stubbornly racist.  Either cops, prosecutors and judges are racist to begin with, and the high violent crime rates and murder rates in inner cities give them an excuse to act on their racism.  Or else, the high violent crime and murder rates make them nervous and jumpy, and cause them to exert bad judgement and act in racist ways.  Or both.
Absolutely, and while they're a reflection of the broader society, they are indeed worse.

BTW, the answer to your query is BOTH, but that's hardly an excuse. If you're scared, you probably shouldn't be a cop. It's a hostile environment to be sure, but these days, we hold cops to lower standards than we have for untrained civilians, who would be jailed for making decisions as poor as cops do, which makes no sense.

Agreed. Cops should be held to a higher standard than the average civilian. Cops are supposedly well trained, and are given the public trust.
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Murph

Post  Oracle on Tue May 29, 2018 12:27 pm

Murph wrote:The real cause of the problem is that the criminal justice system in this country remains stubbornly racist.  Either cops, prosecutors and judges are racist to begin with, and the high violent crime rates and murder rates in inner cities give them an excuse to act on their racism.  Or else, the high violent crime and murder rates make them nervous and jumpy, and cause them to exert bad judgement and act in racist ways.  Or both.
Absolutely, and while they're a reflection of the broader society, they are indeed worse.

BTW, the answer to your query is BOTH, but that's hardly an excuse. If you're scared, you probably shouldn't be a cop. It's a hostile environment to be sure, but these days, we hold cops to lower standards than we have for untrained civilians, who would be jailed for making decisions as poor as cops do, which makes no sense.
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With all due respect, LeBron is absolutely the GOAT...

Post  Oracle on Tue May 29, 2018 5:48 am

I have no doubt in my mind, LeBron is much bigger, just as skilled, a better passer, just as clutch, but most of all, he's by far a more balanced and well rounded basketball player than Jordan.

I've felt this way for some time, but I'm not alone, cast your peepers on this.

Isiah Thomas: 'LeBron James is a much better player than Michael Jordan'

BTW, the joke called the Rockets set the record for number of 3 point shots missed in a game and missed in a series. I forget the number, but I think they missed something like 27 3 pointers in a row... WOW, even SVG's offense can suck that bad  lol
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OTOH

Post  BallinD on Tue May 29, 2018 12:14 am

Sparma wrote: @Sparma:  I'm not mad at ya, but I'm not mellow on this either.  I'd argue that SVG focused too much on player relationships for some players (Weggie/AB, KCP (take any bad shot you want KCP, AB, and Dre, you can post up till the cows come home, even though Stevie Wonder and Ray Charles could see it didn't work, yet he was the Master of Panic and the Maniac of Appeasement, particularly with Weggie who he encouraged to pound the ball all day long.

Like Murph, I'd be ok with a Casey appointment.  The News article on him [by contrast with SVG] "building player relationships" was favorable (that is true, but also a Narrative designed to obfuscate). I'd forgotten the bit of him being part of a pay for play accusation at U of Kentucky.  Again, that wouldn't be an exciting appointment, but I could see us getting decent results with him.  He would be a slight step-up on SVG, but: No. No. No!  Who needs favorable, how about tell it like it is?  No mention of why Casey was fired (stubborn, unable to make adjustments, had to be dragged kicking and screaming to modernize the Raptors offense last year). Not prone to make in-game adjustments (sound like anyone we know?!) That is straight up piss poor journalism not even to address the obvious questions!

Clearly, I think more highly of Ellis and Beard than do others.  I think they let you know sotto voce that, eg, Stan's manner didn't go over well, making Casey a fitting potential replacement.  They don't race to announce the dirt as may happen in other towns, (but especially they never question the official "Narrative) but I respect their restraint befitting the Midwest.
If you can't see the dirt, you'll never get the house clean!"
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Ever?

Post  Sparma on Mon May 28, 2018 10:26 pm

BallinD: "I hear you, maybe Stefanski will work out?  But will we ever be innovative, ahead of the freaking curve, the smart, out-of-the-box team that takes risks instead of playing it safe to be sorry?

Ever's a long time, but at 60 I'm gaining confidence in the answer: Not in my lifetime.

You're right that Prince is a sourpuss. At least he dedicated himself to being an apprentice in Memphis, creating a Stefanski link. I fear that as a front office person in Detroit he could never outrun his "buffoonery" comment, apt as it was at the time.

Like Murph, I'd be ok with a Casey appointment. The News article on him [by contrast with SVG] "building player relationships" was favorable; I'd forgotten the bit of him being part of a pay for play accusation at U of Kentucky. Again, that wouldn't be an exciting appointment, but I could see us getting decent results with him.

To my shame, the time recently that I thought we might be ahead of the curve was with the SVG appointment. It wasn't that I expected so much from Stan himself, but hearing that (a) he'd attended (and I think presented) at an analytics conference, that (b) he, along with Gores, was said to be putting unprecedented sources into scouting all NBA teams, led me to think we might see the kind of marriage of analytics and traditional scouting that I think is the way to go, that I regard as cutting edge. Evidently, working hard on that synthesis was part of Theo Epstein's success with the Cubs (somewhat in distinction from his approach with the Red Sox). The next time I heard about the impact of cutting edge technology was after SVG left, when stories came out of video game challenges with potential players.

Clearly, I think more highly of Ellis and Beard than do others. I think they let you know sotto voce that, eg, Stan's manner didn't go over well, making Casey a fitting potential replacement. They don't race to announce the dirt as may happen in other towns, but I respect their restraint befitting the Midwest.
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My Brother

Post  BallinD on Mon May 28, 2018 9:07 pm

@Deus: Nobody likes a milquetoast with no spine, in the mold of Beard and Ellis.  They never even attempt to balance things when they are busy "sucking up!"  When parroting the official narrative, at least present the caveat, the devil's advocate, the counter to the obvious "Team Perspective."  But no...I guess that's asking too much!

deusXango wrote:
BallinD wrote:@WTF: Sorry Wise, being a Spartan and all, I could give less than a good damn if Houston ever wins a WCF series if they're playing the Warriors.  Gotta ride or die with Draymond and that is that! Who represents the state of Michigan on the elite level, other than Draymond?

I remember when he played for the Spartans and I nicknamed him the dancing bear cause he was so light on his feet for a kind of chubby guy.  He played so Smart and Hard as hell and I fell in love with him.  Of course the Pistons failed to draft him, but that's another story. BallinD, I use to agonize over the Pistons not drafting Draymond, but looking at the leadership since he's been in the NBA, his career wouldn't be where it is today had he been a Piston. So, GO WARRIORS!  

@Sparma.  I hear you, maybe Stefanski will work out?  But will we ever be innovative, ahead of the freaking curve, the smart, out-of-the-box team that takes risks instead of playing it safe to be sorry?  Now that doesn't mean we have to hire Becky Hammond, but come on.  If we're gonna hire middling retreads, can't we get Pistons DNA in here, Chauncey, Ben, Sheed, Zeke, Laimbeer, Corliss, Stackhouse, somebody dammnit.  Kerr had no experience when he was hired, nor did Ainge? Zeke and Chauncey in the front office, and Laimbeer and Stackhouse on the bench; no one else makes sense ("Big Ben" and "Sheed" should be on the bench also, if SJ is ever going to wake the f^ck up, Ellenson is to develop a work ethic, and we're to get our moneys worth out of Drummond and Griffin.) I have my doubts about this happening with Stefanski in Gores ear, right after SVG just hypnotizing his ass. 

If were not gonna get any of our elite Pistons in here, I guess I'll take old sourpuss Tayshaun, who acted like he hated the idea of the Jerebko trade to come back home and play for the Pistons a few years ago.  Never personable, nor really articulate, he would be one of my last Piston choices, but I'd even support that if I thought it would pave the way for a Chauncey, Ben, Sheed, Zeke, etc. Please, not the cry baby when it's time to go to work! We've had enough of that type leadership; it's time to get hard.

Wow!    "Clowns to the left of me, Jokers to the right," here we are stuck in the middle of a Zoo!
Great post BallinD. Can we agree that Ellis and Beard suck as beat writers?
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My Brother

Post  deusXango on Mon May 28, 2018 8:28 pm

BallinD wrote:@WTF: Sorry Wise, being a Spartan and all, I could give less than a good damn if Houston ever wins a WCF series if they're playing the Warriors.  Gotta ride or die with Draymond and that is that! Who represents the state of Michigan on the elite level, other than Draymond?

I remember when he played for the Spartans and I nicknamed him the dancing bear cause he was so light on his feet for a kind of chubby guy.  He played so Smart and Hard as hell and I fell in love with him.  Of course the Pistons failed to draft him, but that's another story. BallinD, I use to agonize over the Pistons not drafting Draymond, but looking at the leadership since he's been in the NBA, his career wouldn't be where it is today had he been a Piston. So, GO WARRIORS!  

@Sparma.  I hear you, maybe Stefanski will work out?  But will we ever be innovative, ahead of the freaking curve, the smart, out-of-the-box team that takes risks instead of playing it safe to be sorry?  Now that doesn't mean we have to hire Becky Hammond, but come on.  If we're gonna hire middling retreads, can't we get Pistons DNA in here, Chauncey, Ben, Sheed, Zeke, Laimbeer, Corliss, Stackhouse, somebody dammnit.  Kerr had no experience when he was hired, nor did Ainge? Zeke and Chauncey in the front office, and Laimbeer and Stackhouse on the bench; no one else makes sense ("Big Ben" and "Sheed" should be on the bench also, if SJ is ever going to wake the f^ck up, Ellenson is to develop a work ethic, and we're to get our moneys worth out of Drummond and Griffin.) I have my doubts about this happening with Stefanski in Gores ear, right after SVG just hypnotizing his ass. 

If were not gonna get any of our elite Pistons in here, I guess I'll take old sourpuss Tayshaun, who acted like he hated the idea of the Jerebko trade to come back home and play for the Pistons a few years ago.  Never personable, nor really articulate, he would be one of my last Piston choices, but I'd even support that if I thought it would pave the way for a Chauncey, Ben, Sheed, Zeke, etc. Please, not the cry baby when it's time to go to work! We've had enough of that type leadership; it's time to get hard.

Wow!    "Clowns to the left of me, Jokers to the right," here we are stuck in the middle of a Zoo!
Great post BallinD. Can we agree that Ellis and Beard suck as beat writers?
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Post  BallinD on Mon May 28, 2018 6:41 pm

@WTF: Sorry Wise, being a Spartan and all, I could give less than a good damn if Houston ever wins a WCF series if they're playing the Warriors.  Gotta ride or die with Draymond and that is that!  

I remember when he played for the Spartans and I nicknamed him the dancing bear cause he was so light on his feet for a kind of chubby guy.  He played so Smart and Hard as hell and I fell in love with him.  Of course the Pistons failed to draft him, but that's another story.

@Sparma.  I hear you, maybe Stefanski will work out?  But will we ever be innovative, ahead of the freaking curve, the smart, out-of-the-box team that takes risks instead of playing it safe to be sorry?  Now that doesn't mean we have to hire Becky Hammond, but come on.  If we're gonna hire middling retreads, can't we get Pistons DNA in here, Chauncey, Ben, Sheed, Zeke, Laimbeer, Corliss, Stackhouse, somebody dammnit.  Kerr had no experience when he was hired, nor did Ainge?  

If were not gonna get any of our elite Pistons in here, I guess I'll take old sourpuss Tayshaun, who acted like he hated the idea of the Jerebko trade to come back home and play for the Pistons a few years ago.  Never personable, nor really articulate, he would be one of my last Piston choices, but I'd even support that if I thought it would pave the way for a Chauncey, Ben, Sheed, Zeke, etc.

Wow!    "Clowns to the left of me, Jokers to the right," here we are stuck in the middle of a Zoo!
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Post  WTF on Mon May 28, 2018 6:22 pm

I really don't want to see a Cavs-Warriors Final please let the Rockets win.
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Brad Stevens couldn't get his players to play smart. Congratulations Labron and Company

Post  cool breeze on Mon May 28, 2018 1:25 pm

The Labron Cavaliers should have been an easy out especially after the good start Boston had in the first quarter. The Cavaliers looked tired and beaten. Then Boston players decided to go solo shooting the long ball without running any offense. After playing Piston type dysfunctional brain defense where no thought was ever made to beat the hell out of Labron's team in the paint after establishing that lead I think everyone in the Boston stands knew what was coming. Why didn't Boston get the ball to Baynes in the paint? Instead one on one ball hogging hero play ground basketball was played by the home team. Also, with Love out, why didn't Boston double Labron at least some of the time? I sure didn't see good coaching or smart playing by Boston and they should have had a cake walk to the finals. This game was a gift or was the game fixed? Who will ever know but the tactics just didn't make sense. The Cavs sure played some good defense and that is usually what decides playoff games.

I was just wondering what a picnic Mr. BigShot's team would have had against the Labron Cavaliers if they could come back now and be in their prime. Don't even need to mention the Bad Boys who would create blowouts in every matchup in the Eastern Conference. But the way the Pistons played with no super natural players like Labron on their team with Billups, Hamilton, Rasheed, Big Ben and Prince playing their half court offense, the Labron Cavaliers would not even want to come out and play in the 2nd half. This game to decide the Eastern Conference championship was a bad joke. That wasn't real basketball at all. I didn't see smart basketball either on offense or defense from either team. Imagine Rip running around those hard screens in and out of the paint. Rasheed moving without the basketball and shooting his variety of mid range shots as the shot clock was expiring. When will some team decide to scrap the street ball concept of the modern NBA? Why not hunt for solid athletes who can defend and hit mid range shots? How many of the current players can hit open shots at the free throw line or closer over 50% of the time? Why are coaches making it the team's goal to get iso 3 point shot attempts so much knowing that few NBA players can shoot above 35%. If a team could be successful running a complicated half court offense where screening and moving without the basketball results in open mid range shots or shots inside the paint, that removes opponent chances of getting easy transition baskets. While the NBA Front office encourages the current style maybe to replace the excitement dunks used to have with crowds, the result is game like this last one where fans see extremely poor defense and a lot of missed long range shots and easy transition baskets. Brad Stevens is a smarter coach than he showed in the 7th game of this series.

The way I see it, the NBA is losing a lot of fans who have been long time followers. There is no way Boston should have lost this game with Love out. The strategy and style made the players look pretty stupid. It seemed like nothing was registering mentally with the players when their 3 point shots didn't fall. No thought at all that if those players were not lucky shooting those shots (and you need luck) then maybe ball and player movement and passing inside to players like Baynes might work better. Horeford was part of the problem. He seldom tried to establish a presence in the paint. Who was he afraid of this time?

Being that the Pistons are not very talented relating to 3 point shooting, why not try another style and not attempt to compete in games like Golden State? Why not with Blake and Andre being really big strong players use that strength and play bully ball with them setting hard screens with the objective of getting mid range shots. Now with AD working on his step back jumper and BG having pretty good shooting skills coming off screens, if Detroit comes back playing the 4 out and 1 in offense with the focus on 3 point shooting, I not be surprised but know the new Piston management team is no better than the last. Maybe Johnson could be really effective in the old Billups led offense because he is a good screener and wouldn't have to throw up those stupid 3 point shots. The new coach could set the tone that this Piston team would win with their hard nosed defense and would have a goal of running a real half court offense and not shoot it until 5 seconds was left in the shot clock on most possessions. But that won't happen because all NBA teams must conform the style the NBA Front Office demands or they will be targeted by the officials for being disobedient. Wouldn't it be interesting to see a variety of offensive and defensive styles instead of the same damn thing coming from every team?

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LeBron

Post  Sparma on Mon May 28, 2018 9:25 am

I'm a LeBron fan, but I wonder if his rep would have been better preserved by losing that 7th game by a point or two, weird as that sounds. Isn't he actually 3-5 in finals, having lost as a youngster to SA before this streak started? I don't know that anyone ever can claim to have a better playoff run than he's had this year. But his haters will take him down a peg if his team is dismantled in the finals, as expected. Then again, they just may have a chance if it's the Rockets this time, especially if Chris Paul is injured. But if Paul's out for game, as reported likely, I can't see the Rockets beating the Warriors.

Murph wrote:Again, say what you want about the officials, the fact that Lebron has been in the NBA Finals now for 8 years in a row speaks for itself.  Granted, he's only 3-4 in his Finals appearances up to this point.


And this year, Lebron somehow managed to drag into the Finals a very flawed Cavs team, which was missing HOFer Kevin Love, and was playing on the road in front of rabid Boston fans against a very well coached Celtics team.


Say what you want about Lebon, next to maybe Jordan and Kareem, he's the GOAT.



How good is Tatum going to be?  You know who he reminds me of?...Grant Hill with a better jump shot.
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Stefanski

Post  Sparma on Mon May 28, 2018 9:15 am

Stefanski could end up working out, but he's not an exciting hire for sure. If Battier or Prince join later, I'll feel better about it.


BallinD wrote:Stefanski.  Wow.  Underwhelming, conservative, "Meh" hiring.  The clueless beat writers and columnists let Gores get away with more stupidity.  Rod Beard of the News lumps Stefanski in with Magic and Jerry West, but he was neither a player of even near their stature nor has he won anything.  No Pistons DNA or Pedigree unlike Magic, for example.

This quote from Beard explains things:

"The Pistons will utilize Stefanski as a senior adviser, similar to other teams in recent years — including Magic Johnson with the Lakers, Jerry Colangelo with the Sixers and Jerry West with the Clippers — to help guide them in rebuilding the front office and hiring a head coach. Stefanski will report directly to Gores, which puts him on the same level with a team president, but he doesn’t have that title.

What the eventual role will be could change. But for now, Stefanski has the keys."
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Lebron's 8th Straight Finals Appearance

Post  Murph on Mon May 28, 2018 8:54 am

Again, say what you want about the officials, the fact that Lebron has been in the NBA Finals now for 8 years in a row speaks for itself. Granted, he's only 3-4 in his Finals appearances up to this point.


And this year, Lebron somehow managed to drag into the Finals a very flawed Cavs team, which was missing HOFer Kevin Love, and was playing on the road in front of rabid Boston fans against a very well coached Celtics team.


Say what you want about Lebon, next to maybe Jordan and Kareem, he's the GOAT.



How good is Tatum going to be? You know who he reminds me of?...Grant Hill with a better jump shot.
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NFL

Post  Murph on Mon May 28, 2018 8:36 am

Oracle wrote:
Murph wrote:I think the NFL owners have every right to require that their players stand for the National Anthem.  After all, the owners are running a business, and they're losing massive amounts of revenue due to the players protests.  And eventually, this revenue loss is going to trickle down to the players salaries.  

Furthermore, the NBA owners require that players stand, and no one protests that.
Firstly, the players are paid to play football, politics shouldn't be a part of this, so can we agree that employers should have less influence on what an employee does when participating in non-work activities. So while the activity is conducted at the place of work, how can an employer require an employee to do things NOT related to their job?

In addition, if the place of work was built with public funds, then the employer is a tenant and should also have limited ability to force anything other than the activity they got the facility to perform.

Finally, this is pretty much a race issue. It's fans that look like me that they're afraid to offend, but news flash, if they piss off fans of color, they'll have a whole different but similar problem, that's why you leave politics out of sports(should be Hollywood too, but...).

They better find a solution to this quick or it may not end well. I LOVE the Lions, but I'm debating if they're going to get any more of my money after supporting this debacle. Twitter is buzzing about this and there's going to be a big backlash!


Oracle...it's my opinion that the underlying causes of this on-going problem are not the NFL owners, or players, or fans, or veterans, or even Kaepernick and Trump.  All of these groups or individuals are just ancillary, and have been dragging into the controversy.


The real cause of the problem is that the criminal justice system in this country remains stubbornly racist.  Either cops, prosecutors and judges are racist to begin with, and the high violent crime rates and murder rates in inner cities give them an excuse to act on their racism.  Or else, the high violent crime and murder rates make them nervous and jumpy, and cause them to exert bad judgement and act in racist ways.  Or both.


So until the Federal Government (the DOJ and FBI) addresses the underlying problems of 1) a racist criminal justice system, and 2) the outrageous violent crime and murder rates in our inner cities, everything else is just finger pointing and deflecting the blame.


Last edited by Murph on Mon May 28, 2018 9:52 am; edited 1 time in total
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