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Re: FORUM

Post  cool breeze on Sat Nov 25, 2017 6:07 pm

[quote="Sparma"]Glad to see you're sticking it out, Don, in spite of some harsh exchanges.  

We're down to a precious few, folks, so let's try to be generous with each other in spite of real, and important, differences.

I'm a Bradley fan, Cool, but not as much as before watching him play a number of times.  This is one where I find myself between you and Oracle.  He's undersized at SG, but doesn't have nearly a good enough handle to cover at PG as some have recommended.  As best I can tell (without seeing into the locker room), he's a genuine leader, with his stellar workout effort, his high energy play, and his smarts.  He's going to create a tough decision moving forward.  If we can sign him at 16-18 mil, go for it; I no longer see him as a max player, at least not for us with our ongoing salary cap woes.


[quote="cool breeze"]
Sparma wrote:Good post on Bradley, Murph.  I'm inclined to be skeptical about intangibles, associating them with marginal players like Tom Brookens, but my sense is that Bradley IS making intangible contributions.  Specifically, I thinking he really does play a leadership role, particularly on D.  A reason that doesn't just translate into stats?  I think his insistence on heightened defensive effort continues even while he's not playing, encouraging the likes of Reggie to try a little harder.

He's really bad with the turnovers though.  

Murph wrote:That's an interesting debate between Oracle and Don on the value of Avery Bradley to the team.  I had a similar conversation with my son the other day.  My son was telling me what a great addition Bradley was to the team...how smart and disciplined he was and how well he played defense.  I replied that the advanced stats don't really love Bradley.  I said on a per minute basis, the advanced stats favor Galloway over Bradley.  My son said, "So if you sub Galloway into the starting lineup for Bradley, the team will do better?"  I thought about that for a moment and replied, "No, probably not."

I'm not certain, but I think this illustrates several points.  First, advanced stats have their limitations.  Yes, they can shed a great deal of insight on how good players are, and what value they bring to the team, but they aren't perfect.  Intuition has to be used when viewing stats.  Yes, Galloway has been an outstanding bench player this season, but would probably not play as well or impact the team as positively as Bradley, if he were to start.

Second, whatever positive influence Bradley has on the starting lineup and team, is not being fully reflected by the stats.  I would file this under "intangibles".  Bradley is a very positive, intelligent, hard working player who is constantly talking to his teammates.  This has to have a positive effect.  How could it not?  In the same way that Morris's surly, negative personality effected the team negatively last season, Bradley's presence uplifts the team.

Third, turnovers must have a huge impact on advanced stats.  I look at Harris' stats compared to Bradley's, and they are very, very similar, except for rebounds (Harris is obviously a better rebounder), and turnovers.  Bradley turns the ball over 15% of his possessions.  Harris only turns the ball over 5% of his possessions.  This could be why the advanced stats list Harris as tied with Drummond as our most valuable player, while Bradley is well down on the list, behind Harris, Drummond, Reggie, Ish, Tolliver and tied with Galloway.

Anyway, I'm sure that's more about advanced stats than anyone wanted to read.  But my point is that while advanced stats are fascinating (to me), and very useful, they don't tell the whole story.  While Oracle is viewing Bradley from a quantitative approach, Don is addressing Bradley from a qualitative approach.  And while Don gets some of the statistical details wrong, I think his over-arching point that Bradley is a very valuable player is accurate.   Perhaps it would be most useful to view Bradley both ways.  Yes, he turns the ball over too much, but he brings a lot to the team in the way of intangibles.

Sparma and Murph you have both done a better job than myself on this issue. Bradley bought something new to the Piston team starting in training camp and the few weeks before. Avery is used to being mentally in games especially in the 4th quarter. He is also done the conditioning work much like Richard Hamilton did over the summer months. There is an edge to Bradley that greatly benefits his team. He is used to winning or at least being on a team that has a chance to win most games. Early on this year he is turning the ball over more than I expected. Over the past two games, his outside shooting percentage has been sub par. But for the most part his shot selection is pretty good. And he recognizes situations on the court quickly especially when he is being over played. His quickness is fantastic and his determination on the defensive end is contagious. And I am so damned happy that after missing every outside shot he drained that key baseline 3 in the 4th quarter last night. As we get into January, February and March I think his real value will show up. Then there will be no doubt that Piston management will be begging Bradley to sign a new contract.

Last night in the 2nd half both Andre Drummond and Stanley Johnson played like supermen in the paint. How many times have we seen AD box out and really jump with passion for those important defensive rebounds he managed to secure? If AD could play like that on defense our Pistons would rock. And Johnson had that look of confidence that I saw a lot of earlier in his life. He was running from baseline to baseline deflecting the ball on defense, and getting big defensive rebounds in the 4th quarter on the few times that AD couldn't. My favorite moments for Johnson was not his improved shooting but how he put his strong 20 year old body on Paul George all night long. He never gave up when George got by him and had some success blocking the ball from behind George another piston player stepped up to stop his dribble penetration.

This Piston team is going to be up and down all season long but SVG gets some credit for putting this group of players together. I like all of them and believe they all can get a lot better but maybe it will take another season of them playing together to see their real potential. How about Smith hitting that shot from behind the half court line.


I know when the trade went down Piston fans were discussing what it would take to keep Bradley. I don't believe he will get an offer for anywhere near max. Could be that he wants security of having a longer term deal for around what Reggie is making. My thought during training camp with Reggie not at full strength that Avery would be an option as a starter at point guard where he size would not be an issue. He has the smarts and a well rounded game as an offensive player and has learned how to be successful as a 2 guard. Looks like I won't get my wish because Galloway is the 3rd point guard. But when he has brought the ball up court instead of Reggie I felt more confident that there would be more passing and movement. But it seems that SVG is sold on playing the simple game of basic pick and roll drive and dish and settle for the 3 bomb. I think if Bradley played point guard there would be more action on the weak side where Johnson would touch the ball more within the half court offense. Johnson can see the floor and can penetrate and create better opportunities for AD and others. With the current point guards the Pistons usually settle for playing one side of the court. Remember back when Prince was a kid but after his rookie playoff success started the following season. Billups and Hamilton seldom passed the ball to the weak side where Prince stood watching much like Johnson does now. But when the two starting guards finally started listening to their coach, the Pistons started to mess and become an elite team. Of course Rasheed and the back up point guard Mike James came in from Boston to seal the deal for the Pistons move to the top of the heap. With that said I like the comments coming from Reggie Jackson lately where he provides positive comments about some of his young teammates such as Johnson and Kennard.


Trying to get over the Michigan loss to Ohio State. When will Michigan get an athletic quarterback? There was no pressure on the Ohio State defensive line or linebackers to worry about the quarterback possibly running. Why hold the ball when you are not even looking downfield and not attempt to dump the ball out of bounds. The Michigan offense has been flat all season long from inept play calling and execution by the slow moving and slow thinking quarterbacks who get the playing time. Losing to Ohio State sucks and but is getting to the point where maybe Michigan fans are starting to feel much like Lion fans that their team is doomed before the game begins. Michigan has had an extremely dull looking offense this year. Last season they were screwed by the refs in the Ohio State game. Meanwhile it appears that Ohio State has a keeper with their young back-up who was in charge during those successful 2nd half drives. There is nothing more deflating for a defense when linemen get a good push off during first contact and get in the backfield but cannot make that critical tackle and the quarterback runs for a first down on a 3rd down play. How many times did that happen in this game? O'Korn couldn't see his wide open receivers all day long and yet he was never benched? Defense couldn't get any stops either in the 2nd half. This was a game Michigan could have won. The entire team must be hanging their heads now.

What happened to the days when Woodie Hayes came out on the field to tear up the yard markers? I attended that game. My brother was in Med School at the time. We went to the pool hall after the game on the Michigan campus and fans came in with part of the goal posts. What a day! Now Ohio State owns Michigan. Damn it all!



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Post  Sparma on Sat Nov 25, 2017 4:07 pm

Glad to see you're sticking it out, Don, in spite of some harsh exchanges.

We're down to a precious few, folks, so let's try to be generous with each other in spite of real, and important, differences.

I'm a Bradley fan, Cool, but not as much as before watching him play a number of times. This is one where I find myself between you and Oracle. He's undersized at SG, but doesn't have nearly a good enough handle to cover at PG as some have recommended. As best I can tell (without seeing into the locker room), he's a genuine leader, with his stellar workout effort, his high energy play, and his smarts. He's going to create a tough decision moving forward. If we can sign him at 16-18 mil, go for it; I no longer see him as a max player, at least not for us with our ongoing salary cap woes.


cool breeze wrote:
Sparma wrote:Good post on Bradley, Murph.  I'm inclined to be skeptical about intangibles, associating them with marginal players like Tom Brookens, but my sense is that Bradley IS making intangible contributions.  Specifically, I thinking he really does play a leadership role, particularly on D.  A reason that doesn't just translate into stats?  I think his insistence on heightened defensive effort continues even while he's not playing, encouraging the likes of Reggie to try a little harder.

He's really bad with the turnovers though.  

Murph wrote:That's an interesting debate between Oracle and Don on the value of Avery Bradley to the team.  I had a similar conversation with my son the other day.  My son was telling me what a great addition Bradley was to the team...how smart and disciplined he was and how well he played defense.  I replied that the advanced stats don't really love Bradley.  I said on a per minute basis, the advanced stats favor Galloway over Bradley.  My son said, "So if you sub Galloway into the starting lineup for Bradley, the team will do better?"  I thought about that for a moment and replied, "No, probably not."

I'm not certain, but I think this illustrates several points.  First, advanced stats have their limitations.  Yes, they can shed a great deal of insight on how good players are, and what value they bring to the team, but they aren't perfect.  Intuition has to be used when viewing stats.  Yes, Galloway has been an outstanding bench player this season, but would probably not play as well or impact the team as positively as Bradley, if he were to start.

Second, whatever positive influence Bradley has on the starting lineup and team, is not being fully reflected by the stats.  I would file this under "intangibles".  Bradley is a very positive, intelligent, hard working player who is constantly talking to his teammates.  This has to have a positive effect.  How could it not?  In the same way that Morris's surly, negative personality effected the team negatively last season, Bradley's presence uplifts the team.

Third, turnovers must have a huge impact on advanced stats.  I look at Harris' stats compared to Bradley's, and they are very, very similar, except for rebounds (Harris is obviously a better rebounder), and turnovers.  Bradley turns the ball over 15% of his possessions.  Harris only turns the ball over 5% of his possessions.  This could be why the advanced stats list Harris as tied with Drummond as our most valuable player, while Bradley is well down on the list, behind Harris, Drummond, Reggie, Ish, Tolliver and tied with Galloway.

Anyway, I'm sure that's more about advanced stats than anyone wanted to read.  But my point is that while advanced stats are fascinating (to me), and very useful, they don't tell the whole story.  While Oracle is viewing Bradley from a quantitative approach, Don is addressing Bradley from a qualitative approach.  And while Don gets some of the statistical details wrong, I think his over-arching point that Bradley is a very valuable player is accurate.   Perhaps it would be most useful to view Bradley both ways.  Yes, he turns the ball over too much, but he brings a lot to the team in the way of intangibles.

Sparma and Murph you have both done a better job than myself on this issue. Bradley bought something new to the Piston team starting in training camp and the few weeks before. Avery is used to being mentally in games especially in the 4th quarter. He is also done the conditioning work much like Richard Hamilton did over the summer months. There is an edge to Bradley that greatly benefits his team. He is used to winning or at least being on a team that has a chance to win most games. Early on this year he is turning the ball over more than I expected. Over the past two games, his outside shooting percentage has been sub par. But for the most part his shot selection is pretty good. And he recognizes situations on the court quickly especially when he is being over played. His quickness is fantastic and his determination on the defensive end is contagious. And I am so damned happy that after missing every outside shot he drained that key baseline 3 in the 4th quarter last night. As we get into January, February and March I think his real value will show up. Then there will be no doubt that Piston management will be begging Bradley to sign a new contract.

Last night in the 2nd half both Andre Drummond and Stanley Johnson played like supermen in the paint. How many times have we seen AD box out and really jump with passion for those important defensive rebounds he managed to secure? If AD could play like that on defense our Pistons would rock. And Johnson had that look of confidence that I saw a lot of earlier in his life. He was running from baseline to baseline deflecting the ball on defense, and getting big defensive rebounds in the 4th quarter on the few times that AD couldn't. My favorite moments for Johnson was not his improved shooting but how he put his strong 20 year old body on Paul George all night long. He never gave up when George got by him and had some success blocking the ball from behind George another piston player stepped up to stop his dribble penetration.

This Piston team is going to be up and down all season long but SVG gets some credit for putting this group of players together. I like all of them and believe they all can get a lot better but maybe it will take another season of them playing together to see their real potential. How about Smith hitting that shot from behind the half court line.



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Team balance is coming along better these days

Post  cool breeze on Sat Nov 25, 2017 2:57 pm

I am guilty of reporting Johnson's age wrong. He is 21 according to the article "Johnson Gets SVG's message". Imagine two years from now when Stanley and Luke are getting into their prime years as basketball players. When thinking of team balance on an NBA team it is important to notice with the Pistons that SVG has started a system where he has some older players pulling the team along with significant contributions from the young guns with Kennard and Johnson. Both are intriguing players. And I really am enjoying hearing some of Reggie Jackson's opinions on these young guys. Reggie is thinking TEAM more. I just hope that both Johnson and Kennard become more confident and show enough consistency from game to game throughout the season. That will motivate them to put in the crucial hard work over next summer so they are ready to become prime time players in the 4th quarter of games. And the other guy I hope can somehow work his way into the rotation is Henry Ellenson. Most likely he will only play unless the team goes flat or if one of the key big men suffers a prolonged injury. Ellenson may have played his way out of the rotation for now and maybe that is not a bad thing. Suffering disappointment and finding your true character always makes success more sweet. Henry is extremely young for a big man. Henry can practice with players like Tolliver who is a natural mentor. It is hard to get in game shape when you sit the bench so I hope SVG sends him out to the minor league for some real action this season if his DNP continues. It is more important in the long run for Ellenson to get experience than it is for Jon Leuer to get back in the rotation. That is just my opinion though because there must be something that I do not see that SVG believes is important relating to Jon Leuer. I suspect that Leuer is a great practice player and any coach wants to reward hard working practice players especially big men. Moreland has so far taken Leuer's minutes. I know others do not believe Moreland is that important but I believe in him and hope he can keep that back up center job. Still if I were Ellenson I would be in that weight room every day getting stronger while learning what it takes to become a better rebounder and defender. Ellenson is a quick jumper. I see only great things for him in the future if he puts in the work. If he can elevate himself into a player who can hold his own at either PF or center in future years we have three young guns who can gradually have key roles in the Pistons rise as other older NBA teams gradually lose their mojo. The next step is to get lucky in the draft with a point guard who can also put in his dues in the background working his way up when our current vet players legs get older. AD is still developing and might reach his peak in two seasons relating to his impact on defense. Meanwhile I would like to see Harris and Bradley hang around for another 3 years. Maybe SVG does know more than any of us and does care about setting the Pistons up for a championship run. There is no doubt that this current roster is much stronger than we have seen in many years. That makes me happy.

The only problem I have is how the game is currently played in the NBA where the pick and roll dump out for too many 3 point shot attempts is like playing the slot machines from night to night. How can players maintain high shooting percentages from beyond the 3 point line in the 4th quarter? In other eras players like Reggie Miller and Richard Hamilton could run around at top speed through several screens and drop that 12 footer in the hole every night. I loved watching that action from both a offensive and defensive perspective. It seems that a lot of players have lost the art of setting good screens. The officials do not reward players who are fundamentally sound in that area. Will basketball fans lose interest is the more simplified brand of basketball offered by the NBA front office? There are a lot of nights when teams just cannot connect with those low percentage long range contested shots. When the shots do not go in the fans who attend games get bored and for the Pistons that means more people who live in Michigan will be more interested in the Red Wings than the Pistons. Non basketball people in pointed shoes working in the NBA front office have mettled with the NBA game while it seems the people running the NHL are less full of themselves and not as apt to place their thumb print on a game they might have have never played themselves. I am thinking of David Stern and his former hand picked underling who now runs the show, Adam Silver.

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Re: FORUM

Post  cool breeze on Sat Nov 25, 2017 12:33 pm

Sparma wrote:Good post on Bradley, Murph.  I'm inclined to be skeptical about intangibles, associating them with marginal players like Tom Brookens, but my sense is that Bradley IS making intangible contributions.  Specifically, I thinking he really does play a leadership role, particularly on D.  A reason that doesn't just translate into stats?  I think his insistence on heightened defensive effort continues even while he's not playing, encouraging the likes of Reggie to try a little harder.

He's really bad with the turnovers though.  

Murph wrote:That's an interesting debate between Oracle and Don on the value of Avery Bradley to the team.  I had a similar conversation with my son the other day.  My son was telling me what a great addition Bradley was to the team...how smart and disciplined he was and how well he played defense.  I replied that the advanced stats don't really love Bradley.  I said on a per minute basis, the advanced stats favor Galloway over Bradley.  My son said, "So if you sub Galloway into the starting lineup for Bradley, the team will do better?"  I thought about that for a moment and replied, "No, probably not."

I'm not certain, but I think this illustrates several points.  First, advanced stats have their limitations.  Yes, they can shed a great deal of insight on how good players are, and what value they bring to the team, but they aren't perfect.  Intuition has to be used when viewing stats.  Yes, Galloway has been an outstanding bench player this season, but would probably not play as well or impact the team as positively as Bradley, if he were to start.

Second, whatever positive influence Bradley has on the starting lineup and team, is not being fully reflected by the stats.  I would file this under "intangibles".  Bradley is a very positive, intelligent, hard working player who is constantly talking to his teammates.  This has to have a positive effect.  How could it not?  In the same way that Morris's surly, negative personality effected the team negatively last season, Bradley's presence uplifts the team.

Third, turnovers must have a huge impact on advanced stats.  I look at Harris' stats compared to Bradley's, and they are very, very similar, except for rebounds (Harris is obviously a better rebounder), and turnovers.  Bradley turns the ball over 15% of his possessions.  Harris only turns the ball over 5% of his possessions.  This could be why the advanced stats list Harris as tied with Drummond as our most valuable player, while Bradley is well down on the list, behind Harris, Drummond, Reggie, Ish, Tolliver and tied with Galloway.

Anyway, I'm sure that's more about advanced stats than anyone wanted to read.  But my point is that while advanced stats are fascinating (to me), and very useful, they don't tell the whole story.  While Oracle is viewing Bradley from a quantitative approach, Don is addressing Bradley from a qualitative approach.  And while Don gets some of the statistical details wrong, I think his over-arching point that Bradley is a very valuable player is accurate.   Perhaps it would be most useful to view Bradley both ways.  Yes, he turns the ball over too much, but he brings a lot to the team in the way of intangibles.

Sparma and Murph you have both done a better job than myself on this issue. Bradley bought something new to the Piston team starting in training camp and the few weeks before. Avery is used to being mentally in games especially in the 4th quarter. He is also done the conditioning work much like Richard Hamilton did over the summer months. There is an edge to Bradley that greatly benefits his team. He is used to winning or at least being on a team that has a chance to win most games. Early on this year he is turning the ball over more than I expected. Over the past two games, his outside shooting percentage has been sub par. But for the most part his shot selection is pretty good. And he recognizes situations on the court quickly especially when he is being over played. His quickness is fantastic and his determination on the defensive end is contagious. And I am so damned happy that after missing every outside shot he drained that key baseline 3 in the 4th quarter last night. As we get into January, February and March I think his real value will show up. Then there will be no doubt that Piston management will be begging Bradley to sign a new contract.

Last night in the 2nd half both Andre Drummond and Stanley Johnson played like supermen in the paint. How many times have we seen AD box out and really jump with passion for those important defensive rebounds he managed to secure? If AD could play like that on defense our Pistons would rock. And Johnson had that look of confidence that I saw a lot of earlier in his life. He was running from baseline to baseline deflecting the ball on defense, and getting big defensive rebounds in the 4th quarter on the few times that AD couldn't. My favorite moments for Johnson was not his improved shooting but how he put his strong 20 year old body on Paul George all night long. He never gave up when George got by him and had some success blocking the ball from behind George another piston player stepped up to stop his dribble penetration.

This Piston team is going to be up and down all season long but SVG gets some credit for putting this group of players together. I like all of them and believe they all can get a lot better but maybe it will take another season of them playing together to see their real potential. How about Smith hitting that shot from behind the half court line.




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Great Win

Post  Murph on Sat Nov 25, 2017 10:13 am

Great win last night.  I can't believe how focused the Pistons were down the stretch. The crowd was rockin' and the officials were doing everything in their power to hand the game to the Thunder, but the 'Stones would not be denied.

If Kennard is going to start next year, he seriously needs to hit the weight room in the off season.  He needs to add at least 10 lbs of muscle.
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Pistons eek out a one point WIN!!!

Post  Oracle on Fri Nov 24, 2017 11:18 pm

Wow, the Thunder are BAD!

They're talented, but they're nowhere near a team yet!

Ish is the hero, IMO, but Stanley gets major props as well!

This is a confidence builder, I LOVE the heart of this team!!!
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I Feel Bad for Avery

Post  BallinD on Fri Nov 24, 2017 3:43 pm

As to the azz whooping, AB will almost certainly be charged with guarding Russ. I can't even imagine trying to guard that force of nature, especially since he hates Weggie and will certainly dunk on Dre's head. Uggggh. Go Pistons. Get a W!
deusXango wrote:
Oracle wrote:

Westbrook called Reggie out by name, saying that he always gets up when Durant or Reggie comes to town!

I smell a fresh ass whooping coming...
I can see Durant, but Reggie?! Seriously Oracle, if that's the case, I smell an ass whupping of epic portions coming! lol I keep trying to get back on the Reggie bandwagon, but something always seems to happen to say to me, "ugh, ugh, don't do it." But, if Reggie kicks off into Westbrooks ass tonight, I'll leave him alone for the duration. My 50 wins still look good to me, but those 54 wins look better.
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Show me the money

Post  deusXango on Fri Nov 24, 2017 12:00 pm

Oracle wrote:

Westbrook called Reggie out by name, saying that he always gets up when Durant or Reggie comes to town!

I smell a fresh ass whooping coming...
I can see Durant, but Reggie?! Seriously Oracle, if that's the case, I smell an ass whupping of epic portions coming! lol I keep trying to get back on the Reggie bandwagon, but something always seems to happen to say to me, "ugh, ugh, don't do it." But, if Reggie kicks off into Westbrooks ass tonight, I'll leave him alone for the duration. My 50 wins still look good to me, but those 54 wins look better.
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Pussies and Pistons

Post  Oracle on Fri Nov 24, 2017 3:57 am

lemonpen wrote:
WTF wrote:So mad at the Lions today!!!!
#9 is not to be trusted.
Yes, #9 blew it, throwing high on two critical occasions and simply missing WIDE open receivers, all while collecting historic money.

Oh well, as she said in 1939... after all, Tomorrow's another Day!

Didn't like the Lions loss, then you're really not going to like the Pistons loss in OKC!

Westbrook called Reggie out by name, saying that he always gets up when Durant or Reggie comes to town!

I smell a fresh ass whooping coming...
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Leo's

Post  lemonpen on Thu Nov 23, 2017 9:56 pm

WTF wrote:So mad at the Lions today!!!!
#9 is not to be trusted.
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Darn Lions

Post  WTF on Thu Nov 23, 2017 4:52 pm

So mad at the Lions today!!!!
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Re: FORUM

Post  WTF on Wed Nov 22, 2017 9:11 pm

Murph wrote:Yes, the starters often get outscored.  This reminds me of the 02-03 season when the starting unit of Billups, Hamilton, Curry, Robinson and Wallace would hold their own or get down by a little, and then the Alternatorz would come in (Atkins, Barry, Prince, Williamson and Okur) and outscore their opponents, and then return to the bench with a lead.

However, this didn't mean that the 2nd unit was better than the 1st unit.  After all, the 2nd unit played against their opponents bench players.  Nevertheless, the Alternatorz were good, and they played together as a unit.

Also, I fear that this whole discussion will be academic by next year.  Unless SVG can unload Leuer and/or Boban, I doubt if SVG will have the money to re-sign Bradley.  My guess is that the Pistons will let Bradley walk, the way they let KCP walk away.  Next year, I'm guessing Kennard will start of SG, with Galloway as the back up.

Only if Kennard get properly groomed this season.  SVG has to stop with the not playing Kennard he needs consistent minutes.   I'm okay with Kennard starting next season and SVG letting Bradley walk because the focus needs to be on upgrading both the PG and PF positions.  I also think if Moreland is given ample time to develop he'll be the perfect back up to Andre.

On the Bradley thing I don't care for all the advance stats the eye test is more accurate of an assessment numbers don't tell the whole story but the intangibles often tell you who, what's and why's.  IMO Don tends to overstate the intangibles and Oracle seems more bottom line.

As I said in a previous post it's Reggie that having the most impact not so much by what he's doing but what he's not doing but the biggest impact is coming from the place I trust the least and that is the coaching.  

Overall this team is still fundamentally flawed and every player on this team suffer from their own individual failings.  This is where Don goes into overkill because it's easy to nick-pick those flaws with every player so his wrong to think that Bradley is leading some charge and is the game changer here. This team has shown some good but it's shown some bad IMO they haven't shown next level **** yet and they may never show it.
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Re: FORUM

Post  Murph on Wed Nov 22, 2017 3:00 pm

Yes, the starters often get outscored. This reminds me of the 02-03 season when the starting unit of Billups, Hamilton, Curry, Robinson and Wallace would hold their own or get down by a little, and then the Alternatorz would come in (Atkins, Barry, Prince, Williamson and Okur) and outscore their opponents, and then return to the bench with a lead.

However, this didn't mean that the 2nd unit was better than the 1st unit. After all, the 2nd unit played against their opponents bench players. Nevertheless, the Alternatorz were good, and they played together as a unit.

Also, I fear that this whole discussion will be academic by next year. Unless SVG can unload Leuer and/or Boban, I doubt if SVG will have the money to re-sign Bradley. My guess is that the Pistons will let Bradley walk, the way they let KCP walk away. Next year, I'm guessing Kennard will start of SG, with Galloway as the back up.
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Murph & Sparma

Post  Oracle on Wed Nov 22, 2017 1:33 pm

Whenever you discuss things with Don, you have to be aware that he only sees or reads what conforms to his views EXACTLY, nuance is lost on him and he regularly doesn't read what people say.

I said that Bradley was valuable, his contribution is indisputable. What I also said is that he just wasn't the catalyst of why we're playing better, but he is a factor as I also said as a veteran leader.

This is ALL simple stuff unless you're Don, where you have to agree to everything he says or you're an idiot Smile 

FACT: The starting unit is getting out scored on a regular basis!

FACT: Some starters play better with bench players than in the starting unit!

If Bradley is having this EXTRA effect, then why doesn't it show with the starters? These aren't advanced stats, these are simple facts. It doesn't matter if you can say that he showed a lot of resistance to the steam roller, the result is still that he's part of the pavement.

I also said that I hope that this will turn around, the season is still young and our chemistry isn't what it will be after the all star break, so it's hard to see why Don resists the facts as they currently exist.

BTW, Bradley has never done well with advanced stats for whatever reason, but this is where the eye test does tell you more... or not, I'm not sure yet. As Wise said, we don't know a lot yet, but one thing is clear, if we don't turn around some of these stats, at some point the win totals will reflect those facts.
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Bradley

Post  Sparma on Wed Nov 22, 2017 10:44 am

Good post on Bradley, Murph. I'm inclined to be skeptical about intangibles, associating them with marginal players like Tom Brookens, but my sense is that Bradley IS making intangible contributions. Specifically, I thinking he really does play a leadership role, particularly on D. A reason that doesn't just translate into stats? I think his insistence on heightened defensive effort continues even while he's not playing, encouraging the likes of Reggie to try a little harder.

He's really bad with the turnovers though.

Murph wrote:That's an interesting debate between Oracle and Don on the value of Avery Bradley to the team.  I had a similar conversation with my son the other day.  My son was telling me what a great addition Bradley was to the team...how smart and disciplined he was and how well he played defense.  I replied that the advanced stats don't really love Bradley.  I said on a per minute basis, the advanced stats favor Galloway over Bradley.  My son said, "So if you sub Galloway into the starting lineup for Bradley, the team will do better?"  I thought about that for a moment and replied, "No, probably not."

I'm not certain, but I think this illustrates several points.  First, advanced stats have their limitations.  Yes, they can shed a great deal of insight on how good players are, and what value they bring to the team, but they aren't perfect.  Intuition has to be used when viewing stats.  Yes, Galloway has been an outstanding bench player this season, but would probably not play as well or impact the team as positively as Bradley, if he were to start.

Second, whatever positive influence Bradley has on the starting lineup and team, is not being fully reflected by the stats.  I would file this under "intangibles".  Bradley is a very positive, intelligent, hard working player who is constantly talking to his teammates.  This has to have a positive effect.  How could it not?  In the same way that Morris's surly, negative personality effected the team negatively last season, Bradley's presence uplifts the team.

Third, turnovers must have a huge impact on advanced stats.  I look at Harris' stats compared to Bradley's, and they are very, very similar, except for rebounds (Harris is obviously a better rebounder), and turnovers.  Bradley turns the ball over 15% of his possessions.  Harris only turns the ball over 5% of his possessions.  This could be why the advanced stats list Harris as tied with Drummond as our most valuable player, while Bradley is well down on the list, behind Harris, Drummond, Reggie, Ish, Tolliver and tied with Galloway.

Anyway, I'm sure that's more about advanced stats than anyone wanted to read.  But my point is that while advanced stats are fascinating (to me), and very useful, they don't tell the whole story.  While Oracle is viewing Bradley from a quantitative approach, Don is addressing Bradley from a qualitative approach.  And while Don gets some of the statistical details wrong, I think his over-arching point that Bradley is a very valuable player is accurate.   Perhaps it would be most useful to view Bradley both ways.  Yes, he turns the ball over too much, but he brings a lot to the team in the way of intangibles.
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Statistics and Intangables

Post  Murph on Wed Nov 22, 2017 8:09 am

That's an interesting debate between Oracle and Don on the value of Avery Bradley to the team. I had a similar conversation with my son the other day. My son was telling me what a great addition Bradley was to the team...how smart and disciplined he was and how well he played defense. I replied that the advanced stats don't really love Bradley. I said on a per minute basis, the advanced stats favor Galloway over Bradley. My son said, "So if you sub Galloway into the starting lineup for Bradley, the team will do better?" I thought about that for a moment and replied, "No, probably not."

I'm not certain, but I think this illustrates several points. First, advanced stats have their limitations. Yes, they can shed a great deal of insight on how good players are, and what value they bring to the team, but they aren't perfect. Intuition has to be used when viewing stats. Yes, Galloway has been an outstanding bench player this season, but would probably not play as well or impact the team as positively as Bradley, if he were to start.

Second, whatever positive influence Bradley has on the starting lineup and team, is not being fully reflected by the stats. I would file this under "intangibles". Bradley is a very positive, intelligent, hard working player who is constantly talking to his teammates. This has to have a positive effect. How could it not? In the same way that Morris's surly, negative personality effected the team negatively last season, Bradley's presence uplifts the team.

Third, turnovers must have a huge impact on advanced stats. I look at Harris' stats compared to Bradley's, and they are very, very similar, except for rebounds (Harris is obviously a better rebounder), and turnovers. Bradley turns the ball over 15% of his possessions. Harris only turns the ball over 5% of his possessions. This could be why the advanced stats list Harris as tied with Drummond as our most valuable player, while Bradley is well down on the list, behind Harris, Drummond, Reggie, Ish, Tolliver and tied with Galloway.

Anyway, I'm sure that's more about advanced stats than anyone wanted to read. But my point is that while advanced stats are fascinating (to me), and very useful, they don't tell the whole story. While Oracle is viewing Bradley from a quantitative approach, Don is addressing Bradley from a qualitative approach. And while Don gets some of the statistical details wrong, I think his over-arching point that Bradley is a very valuable player is accurate. Perhaps it would be most useful to view Bradley both ways. Yes, he turns the ball over too much, but he brings a lot to the team in the way of intangibles.
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Don

Post  Oracle on Tue Nov 21, 2017 11:07 pm

Do you even hear yourself? You believe, the players believe... who cares what you believe? If they said they believe they were in the finals last year, would you believe that?

The numbers tell a different story and none of what you want to believe is true. My hope is that it becomes true over time, but it isn't true right now.

I hate to interrupt your stories about what happened in games. I know you want to tell the story the way you want it to be, not how it was, but that's just plain wrong!

It becomes a lie once you're confronted with the truth and won't admit you made a mistake... so you're a liar, plain and simple. I'm not trying to get under your skin or push your buttons, you're just allergic to the truth.

From your loony and out of date views on race, silly views on America, to your petty belittling of players, the phrase, out of touch comes to mind.

So here's my advice...

You take the blue pillthe story ends, you wake up in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe

You take the red pillyou stay in Wonderland, and I show you how deep the rabbit hole goes

Remember: all I'm offering are the stats  lol lol lol

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Wise

Post  Oracle on Tue Nov 21, 2017 10:59 pm

Totally agree, all I wanted to do counter Don's lies with the facts as they exist up to this moment, but he's delusional!
WTF wrote:There has been no one really that stands out consistently perhaps other than Harris but he too isn't the choo choo that makes this team go.  I don't see a difference maker outside of SVG because he seem to have scrap the reckless ISO and P&R.  

This team will go where coaching takes it so I can't say Bradley is any better than KCP right now. IMO if SVG was running the offense like this the prior 2 season 

Brady turns the ball over too much and takes ill advise 3's hell collectively the team takes them,  IMO this has been the biggest issue in the loses they suffered so far.

Sadly Reggie might be the one with the biggest impact at the moment only because he's abandon his hero ball style of play.  Still not happy with his assist totals but that also a result of poor shot selection (3's)
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Oracle and Cool

Post  WTF on Tue Nov 21, 2017 10:29 pm

There has been no one really that stands out consistently perhaps other than Harris but he too isn't the choo choo that makes this team go.  I don't see a difference maker outside of SVG because he seem to have scrap the reckless ISO and P&R.  

This team will go where coaching takes it so I can't say Bradley is any better than KCP right now. IMO if SVG was running the offense like this the prior 2 season 

Brady turns the ball over too much and takes ill advise 3's hell collectively the team takes them,  IMO this has been the biggest issue in the loses they suffered so far.

Sadly Reggie might be the one with the biggest impact at the moment only because he's abandon his hero ball style of play.  Still not happy with his assist totals but that also a result of poor shot selection (3's)
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Seriously People

Post  WTF on Tue Nov 21, 2017 10:02 pm

Oracle wrote:
Murph wrote:This loss meant nothing.  It was a scheduling loss...playing the Cavs on the second night of a back to back, and the 3rd game in 4 nights.  And the officiating was horrible.  There's no shame in losing this one.  

The game I'd like back, however, is the Indiana game.
This is indeed a scheduling loss, but the disturbing thing about it is that is was one of the best scheduling situations you can get. We had three things going for us that made absolutely no difference.

1. The back end was at home, giving us a small advantage
2. This is mostly a young team and a back to back shouldn't be that hard
3. This team is also deep, so smart use of the bench should have helped

BTW, I too wish we could get that Pacer game back, that wasn't a good loss, IMO.

This team is far too young to be given that excuse Murph you should never use that excuse again with this team.  Other teams win back to back games all the freaking time plus these Mofo's make far too much money not to show up.  These assholes were at home at least make the game close. And Oracle is correct SVG has been deep into his bench since the season started.

Just call it like it is and that the Cavs are just better and that's okay, just freaking compete.  I'm going to harp on next level type **** all season and from here on out.  Next level teams don't get tired  and when they do they find a way, next level teams don't need excuse because they compete every game they don't take days off and they grind it out.  

Many of you think this team got 50 wins in them and that's on the cusp of being next level.  I don't recall any other 50 win Pistons Team using this excuse or not competing no matter what the schedule looked like.
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Re: FORUM

Post  cool breeze on Tue Nov 21, 2017 7:30 pm

Oracle wrote:
Don wrote:Oracle you couldn't be more wrong again. Your timing for this post was perfect if you are bent on providing mis information. Bradley is the key player in my opinion. SVG should have rested Bradley last night. It was clear in the first quarter that Avery didn't look well. He had nothing in his tank. But to say that Bradley has not been the uplifting dynamic addition to this team is insane. He has been the player who has kept the Pistons in games such as the Minnesota game where he drilled two 3 point shots in a row from the baseline corner in the 4th quarter. It has been Bradley all season long so far who has made the plays in the 2nd half of games that has made the difference from the team we had last season with KCP. I only wish that somehow Piston management could sign Bradley to a long term contract before the season is over. You have been the lone Piston fan who has tried to place a negative spin on the Bradley trade. You called me a lier in one of my previous posts when I mentioned my appreciation of what Moreland had brought to the Piston team this year. You are nasty Oracle. Somehow in your eyes yellow is green or orange is black. We all have a relative like that so God bless you.
1. Did you watch the game??? Bradley came out of the box in the first on FIRE!!!

2. If Bradley is such a difference, then why do the starters have so much trouble on both ends of the floor? Are the numbers lying or is it the forum serial liar? Sorry, you don't have KCP to blame this year, but I'm sure you'll find a way.

Don, stop flapping your lips and back up your lies with some proof... oops, you have none!

Calm down there Mr. Expert Stat Man. If you actually had the patience to watch the games the Pistons played this season then maybe you could figure more things out correctly. This pissing contest you create with name calling (Lier lier pants on fire) is of the special juvenile brand. My final comment is that if you do not believe that Avery Bradley has had a really good impact on this Piston team and is not one of the key players if not the best player, then you are an idiot. Every Piston player on this team knows how valuable Bradley is to them as a player. He was a fan favorite in Boston last season and his former teammates really liked him as well as a teammate. SVG knows how valuable he is and is sure happy he made that trade and didn't have to pay KCP anything.

We all know that Bradley was not himself last night with the exception of you. Maybe you believe that would be a typical game for Avery. I didn't see many of the other players who had a good outing either. Maybe it was that Cleveland had Labron who took his team to Detroit on Saturday. Their team was well rested and wanted to really embarrass our team. Maybe that game will be a good motivator for our team at the end of the season. As Lemonpen stated it would be a mistake to make anything out of that game other than it was an unpleasant ass kicking that a tired team had to experience. That would be no game to make any final judgments on any player if you have any sense at all. Your perception of what goes on in basketball makes me believe that you should change your forum name and not call yourself Oracle. You dig deep for your sources but your sources seem to have damaged brains. Who was the forum fan who used to create stats on bench players based on the stats they got in clean up time when the game was never in doubt? Wasn't it Lee? Are you Lee?

You did push my buttons Oracle if that was your intention. Bradley is a really good man, hard worker, and is an outstanding basketball player. Know it or not, Piston fans are lucky to have him with us for one year. I doubt he will stay because of fans like you which pisses me off big time. I know that I am hard on AD and RJ but it is a tough love type thing for me because I pull for anyone who wears the Piston uniform. I know if they would only work on a few things both AD and RJ could really improve. The same is true for most of our players with the exception of Bradley who has already done the work necessary and believe it or not he is a really good two way player. Overall this Piston team has a real chance to become a very good team given enough time. I am not taking the time to respond to any of your posts in the future. Got to get back to work and need to Ignore your childish attacks. Finding the truth about what goes on within a game is found by watching with educated eyes from years of playing, coaching as well as watching as a spectator. I doubt that you really watch or understand what is really going on in games Oracle. I think you look for some dumb article from a moron who most likely just plugs in stat numbers and draws conclusions on those bogus stats.

Piston fans try to watch the interview with Shaq at his home in the show "Objectified". Shaq wants to become a sheriff as his next calling. I didn't know he was so highly educated. Says he owes everything to his parents to got him on the right course in life. Shaq says he just wants to be known as a good man. He promised that if you see him in public he will not be wearing any chains. See him a lot at the home basketball games here in Tucson. His son as committed to Arizona next year. Shaq mentioned that he seldom talks about basketball with his kids at all.

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Good Lesson

Post  lemonpen on Tue Nov 21, 2017 1:49 pm

Oracle wrote:
Murph wrote:This loss meant nothing.  It was a scheduling loss...playing the Cavs on the second night of a back to back, and the 3rd game in 4 nights.  And the officiating was horrible.  There's no shame in losing this one.  

The game I'd like back, however, is the Indiana game.
This is indeed a scheduling loss, but the disturbing thing about it is that is was one of the best scheduling situations you can get. We had three things going for us that made absolutely no difference.

1. The back end was at home, giving us a small advantage
2. This is mostly a young team and a back to back shouldn't be that hard
3. This team is also deep, so smart use of the bench should have helped

BTW, I too wish we could get that Pacer game back, that wasn't a good loss, IMO.

There is no shame in losing to three sure-fire HOF'ers, unless we have three to match. Shoot, even their bench players have NBA resumes written in chapters. Most everyone on our roster is still working on their first page.
The only shame will be if the experience taught no lessons.

- We should have noticed how to maintain a huge lead without yielding to fatigue/boredom/over-confidence and whatever excuse we laid on the Pacer debacle.
- We should have been reminded how valuing each possession facilitates a steamrolling offense.
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Murph

Post  Oracle on Tue Nov 21, 2017 12:37 pm

Murph wrote:This loss meant nothing.  It was a scheduling loss...playing the Cavs on the second night of a back to back, and the 3rd game in 4 nights.  And the officiating was horrible.  There's no shame in losing this one.  

The game I'd like back, however, is the Indiana game.
This is indeed a scheduling loss, but the disturbing thing about it is that is was one of the best scheduling situations you can get. We had three things going for us that made absolutely no difference.

1. The back end was at home, giving us a small advantage
2. This is mostly a young team and a back to back shouldn't be that hard
3. This team is also deep, so smart use of the bench should have helped

BTW, I too wish we could get that Pacer game back, that wasn't a good loss, IMO.
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My goodness Don... More Lies!!!

Post  Oracle on Tue Nov 21, 2017 12:33 pm

Don wrote:Oracle you couldn't be more wrong again. Your timing for this post was perfect if you are bent on providing mis information. Bradley is the key player in my opinion. SVG should have rested Bradley last night. It was clear in the first quarter that Avery didn't look well. He had nothing in his tank. But to say that Bradley has not been the uplifting dynamic addition to this team is insane. He has been the player who has kept the Pistons in games such as the Minnesota game where he drilled two 3 point shots in a row from the baseline corner in the 4th quarter. It has been Bradley all season long so far who has made the plays in the 2nd half of games that has made the difference from the team we had last season with KCP. I only wish that somehow Piston management could sign Bradley to a long term contract before the season is over. You have been the lone Piston fan who has tried to place a negative spin on the Bradley trade. You called me a lier in one of my previous posts when I mentioned my appreciation of what Moreland had brought to the Piston team this year. You are nasty Oracle. Somehow in your eyes yellow is green or orange is black. We all have a relative like that so God bless you.
1. Did you watch the game??? Bradley came out of the box in the first on FIRE!!!

2. If Bradley is such a difference, then why do the starters have so much trouble on both ends of the floor? Are the numbers lying or is it the forum serial liar? Sorry, you don't have KCP to blame this year, but I'm sure you'll find a way.

Don, stop flapping your lips and back up your lies with some proof... oops, you have none!
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Re: FORUM

Post  cool breeze on Tue Nov 21, 2017 10:07 am

Oracle wrote:If you read that Hoops Hype article, it also verifies the Tolliver effect I mentioned as a huge reason we're better, but Galloway is also a spark! Which pretty much destroys the media's claims about Bradley being the reason we're better. He makes us better, but he's not the catalyst.
http://hoopshype.com/2017/11/20/pistons-need-to-use-langston-galloway-anthony-tolliver-more-often/ wrote:The best two-man lineup who have played at least 100 minutes together for Detroit is when Galloway and Tolliver run the floor together.

These two offer strong three-point shooting options for the Pistons and have so far outscored opponents by 28.2 points per 100 possessions so far this season.

Tolliver has also outscored his competitors when he is on at the same time as Moreland, Bradley, Harris, Jackson, Kennard, Drummond and Smith.

Bradley averages 5.7 rebounds per 36 minutes when Tolliver is on the court, but just 2.9 rebounds when Tolliver is not on the court. He averages an outstanding 30.3 points with Galloway on the court, but 18.9 points without him.

Meanwhile, Drummond averages 18.9 rebounds per 36 minutes when Tolliver is on the court and 15.8 rebounds when Tolliver is not on the court. He also averaged 17.2 points with Galloway, but just 14.6 points without him.

Galloway is 6-foot-2, but surprisingly ranks No. 3 overall (behind just DeAndre Jordan and Serge Ibaka) in field goal percentage among all players who have taken at least nine shots in the non-restricted area of the paint, via NBA.com.

Oracle you couldn't be more wrong again. Your timing for this post was perfect if you are bent on providing mis information. Bradley is the key player in my opinion. SVG should have rested Bradley last night. It was clear in the first quarter that Avery didn't look well. He had nothing in his tank. But to say that Bradley has not been the uplifting dynamic addition to this team is insane. He has been the player who has kept the Pistons in games such as the Minnesota game where he drilled two 3 point shots in a row from the baseline corner in the 4th quarter. It has been Bradley all season long so far who has made the plays in the 2nd half of games that has made the difference from the team we had last season with KCP. I only wish that somehow Piston management could sign Bradley to a long term contract before the season is over. You have been the lone Piston fan who has tried to place a negative spin on the Bradley trade. You called me a lier in one of my previous posts when I mentioned my appreciation of what Moreland had brought to the Piston team this year. You are nasty Oracle. Somehow in your eyes yellow is green or orange is black. We all have a relative like that so God bless you.

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