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Don

Post  Oracle on Mon Nov 20, 2017 2:06 pm

Keep it accurate,
Don wrote:Enter the 2nd unit and within 20 seconds everything changed.
Sorry to interrupt your false blame game, but...

The only substitution that changed anything in the 1st quarter was the insertion of Ish Smith, then we went on a run.

It was a 1 point game when Moreland went in next, and we lost the quarter by 2 points... care to make anything else up  lol
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2nd unit is fun to watch and might be Detroit's secret weapon as the season moves forward

Post  cool breeze on Mon Nov 20, 2017 11:47 am

The following combination of players has been very effective so far and I expect more out of them when things get difficult as the season progresses.
Smith - Tolliver - Moreland - Kennard - Galloway - Bradley - Johnson

The Pistons started the game looking flat where the motion offense was non existent. Point guard play was horrible where Reggie again refused to make the correct pass to initiate the half court offense early enough. He also did not use both sides of the court at any time. This is when the Pistons were stuck on using their first option and that meant that everything depended on Harris to make difficult shots. During the first quarter Harris couldn't make any shots going something like zero for eight. Also, Reggie allowed dribble penetration and the Timberwolves were getting 2nd chance opportunities. However, I must note that in my opinion this was Andre Drummond's best quarter he has played since I started watching him relating to defense. He was alert and picked up his man quickly and actually boxed out some. AD still provided energy on offense when the starting unit was flat as a pancake. He got offensive rebounds and was fouled. However, the Pistons were struggling. The chemistry of the starting unit did not look good. Their overall defense looked shoddy.

Enter the 2nd unit and within 20 seconds everything changed. Moreland was everywhere as usual on defense stopping dribble penetration in transition and then switching back to his assigned man on defense. All of those 2nd unit players which included Johnson at first and later when Bradley joined that group were actually playing as a smooth unit on both ends. The distinctive difference between the first and 2nd unit is how teammates get back in transition with purpose and speed. Everyone does the right thing meaning if two guys get back first they pick up the driver and stop the driver cold. Then that same player releases the ball carrier back to the Piston assigned to that player and quickly moves back into the paint to pick up his man. I love that. Piston fans that is real basketball not NBA fake basketball. It takes hard work to do that and you have to be unselfish. Quickly the Pistons 2nd unit built up a nice lead.

Then with around 5 minutes left in the 2nd quarter SVG gradually brought back the starters. And by the 4:39 minute mark the starters had lost that lead when the score was 40-39 after Ty Gibson made a tip in over AD on the weak side. Someone should write a book on the peaks and valleys of AD and RJ. We never know when they will be engaged or not. After being so impressive in the first quarter, AD was AWOL again on defense leading up to that Gibson tip in where AD failed to recognize that he needed to look and box out Gibson. And AD also did not guard anyone for three straight defensive stands. It looked like he didn't know who he was supposed to defend so he just stood in the paint. Still with that said, AD is not the same AD from last season or even the season before. He has more moments where he is concentrating better and jumping out of penetrators and disrupting opponents trying to get the easy close in shots. AD for the most part is a much improved player and now he just needs to increase his commitment to full concentration on defense and becoming more alert relating to knowing where opponents are trying to crash the boards. I truly think that when AD goes to the bench to rest he is watching how Moreland rotates so well on defense and plays with such powerful energy always challenging opponent shots in the paint. Maybe when the entire first unit sits and watches how fundamentally sound the 2nd unit is, that might inspire them to play the same way when they return to action. That of course didn't happen when they returned in the 2nd quarter but it appears there was some soul searching on the part of the starters at the half time break.

One other observation as to the importance of Stanley Johnson to this team even though his shot is not falling at a high percentage yet. Did any of you notice how Johnson was talking to both Jackson and Harris in the first half when both made mistakes in judgment on offense. To make the motion offense work, players with the ball must look to the weak side more for opportunities. Both Reggie and Tobias must start setting screens after they pass the ball or before the get the ball. They can't just stand and they must look opposite quickly when they have the ball. Tolliver is always moving and screening. He picked up three fouls in the first half that were bogus otherwise our Pistons most likely could have held on to that lead. I think the first unit could look much better if both Andre Drummond and Stanley Johnson touched the ball more in the half court offense. AD is seeing the floor well from the free throw line. Johnson knows where every player is located on the floor and he is an outstanding passer. It should not be just Reggie dominating the ball especially in the first half of games. If Johnson gets the ball on his side of the court, Bradley is bound to get open and if the player who is screening for Bradley is open, Johnson will deliver the basketball on the money. The starters need to start playing offense like the 2nd unit which is being directed by Ish Smith who is much more under control and using his amazing speed to get the motion offense in gear.

Could it be that this Piston team might actually improve as the season progresses instead of tailing off? One player who consistently motivates his teammates to get better is Avery Bradley. He never turns off his motor so I expect this team will grow into something more powerful than they are now. Nasty scheduling forces our Pistons to take on Cleveland tonight after a tough game and travel. Another test of character at hand.

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Huge win!!!

Post  Oracle on Mon Nov 20, 2017 5:06 am

I'll say it again, this is the Reggie/Drummond show, and when they're right with the world, we're a hard team to beat, although the emergence of Harris and the addition of Bradley makes life easier.

Reggie: Nuff said, the dude took and made some BIG shots in the 4th. He still isn't back to form, but inching closer as the games roll on.

Drummond: He's the feel good story this year! We've been told how much better a passer Monroe was, but look at Drummond now! That pass to Bradley was a thing of beauty in the 4th, threading a needle to get it to him for the tough score with an and one!

Even if they had lost, I still like this team because they play competitive ball, fight and scratch, but it's not for the reasons people think. It isn't Bradley although he certainly helps.

It's the return of Reggie & Drummond coupled with the Tolliver effect. I say this because 2 years ago, we were an even tougher out! Very competitive and mentally tough because of talent and veteran leadership, which is where Bradley helps out as well.

I also have to give SVG some credit, he's still bone headed at times, but you can see he's getting smarter, mostly because he has no margin for posting a bad season.

Next up... let's roast some swash bucklers Smile
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Re: FORUM

Post  merc on Sun Nov 19, 2017 11:21 pm

BallinD wrote:
Murph wrote:Just once I'd like to see SVG start Harris at SF and Tolliver at PF, and bring SJ off the bench.  That move would improve our starting lineup and our bench.

And move Kennard back to reserve SG, and make him compete with Galloway for minutes.  

No more smallball!
This is the best and most reasonable idea to invigorate the starting lineup, would open a bit of room for Ellensen, and give SJ the reins needed to get his azz in gear.  We wonder why we have so many slow starts, but having another scoring option in the starting lineup couldn't hurt.  

It can't hurt to try it.  And can we try AB and Kennard in the backcourt with Kennard playmaking.
I'm down with this also Murph... This would create more room in the paint with better spacing.
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Re: FORUM

Post  cool breeze on Sun Nov 19, 2017 5:37 pm

BallinD wrote:
Murph wrote:Just once I'd like to see SVG start Harris at SF and Tolliver at PF, and bring SJ off the bench.  That move would improve our starting lineup and our bench.

And move Kennard back to reserve SG, and make him compete with Galloway for minutes.  

No more smallball!
This is the best and most reasonable idea to invigorate the starting lineup, would open a bit of room for Ellensen, and give SJ the reins needed to get his azz in gear.  We wonder why we have so many slow starts, but having another scoring option in the starting lineup couldn't hurt.  

It can't hurt to try it.  And can we try AB and Kennard in the backcourt with Kennard playmaking.

If you watch closely you will see that there has been very little movement among the starters. If the team doesn't run a real half court offense that they do practice based on the motion offense, then it won't matter who starts at small forward. Many of the problems start with poor defense as to why RJ doesn't excite well within the motion offense. The Pistons have three weak defenders starting in Drummond, Jackson and Harris. Harris has problems against bigger power forwards. If he plays the 3 he has problems with quicker players who occupy that position on defense. Harris has to play somewhere so SVG thought his best matchups would be at power forward because he is quicker than most power forwards and can take defenders off the dribble well, create space to get his jump shot off, and he gets from baseline to baseline in transition quickly which is an advantage he has over a lot of power forwards. If he plays small forward he will be standing a lot on the weak side like Johnson. Johnson seldom touches the basketball when Reggie is playing with him. Reggie doesn't explore opportunities on the weak side. Reggie is busy trying to find his own shot or run a pick and roll play that opponents stopped last season. What happened to the motion offense where Reggie at times got a quick pass off to the wing usually to Bradley who then executed the motion offense that involves both sides of the court. The coach is upset with Reggie. He has benched him but somehow nothing phases Reggie. I even noticed Johnson pointing a yelling at Jackson after a timeout was called in the last game. That involved exactly what I am talking about above. Reggie did not attempt to execute the half court motion offense this team needs to play to be successful. Do any of you remember that possession when Johnson called Reggie out. It was the time late in the game where Reggie turned the ball over two times in a row. It was the 2nd time when Reggie dribbled around from one side to the other and then slightly penetrated and turned his back to his defender where a quick double team caused the turnover as one defender swatted the ball out of Reggie's hand while he was trapped and standing still. Mind you he was still dribbling instead of securing the basketball or passing it.

What I am liking that should not be passed over just because the Pistons lost two games now and blew that 22 point lead in the last game against an inferior opponent, is how well most of the players have adapted to the motion offense and how well they have been sharing the basketball. I have no problem with Johnson going in with the 2nd unit and starting Harris at small forward but I agree with the coach who believes Harris has an advantage playing power forward relating to his needed scoring. Johnson might likely would really be happier coming in off the bench with Moreland, Kennard, Tolliver, and Smith. If you think back even Bradley plays a lot better when SVG adds him to that group. Most of the skill players play better when they do not play with Reggie Jackson. From watching SVG lately I am getting the feeling that Reggie is on thin ice right now. If he continues to play the way Reggie wants to play instead of the style that best suits this team, then maybe the coach will do what I have been hoping for now for a long time. Bench Reggie and start Bradley at the point. Start Kennard at the 2. Harris remains at power forward with AD at center and Johnson or Galloway at small forward. Johnson will be needed on Monday to match up with Labron. This starting group that I have listed all play unselfishly. Johnson is needed to help out AD and Harris in the paint on defense. His shooting lately has sucked. Maybe it was due to his injury and the time off he took recovering. But his defense is needed and cannot be overlooked if this team is going to win games. The other thing that needs to happen is to get Ellenson into the rotation again. His poor shooting has prevented him from gettng minutes but I believe that eventually if he gets consistent minutes his outside shot will start dropping in the hole. I think that Johnson's percentages will also improve. But I have real doubts that Jackson can adjust his style of play to fit what works for this current roster. Reggie will win some games the way he plays but he will lose way more than he will win in the long run. The bottom line is Reggie looks confused in crunch time. Opponents know his tendencies and get him into playing Reggie vs the World. I think he knows that unless he changes he will be history as a Piston. Hopefully a new Reggie will emerge because he can shoot it well at times. Moving him to the 2 guard is also an option that should be at least tried with Bradley playing point.

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Best Idea

Post  BallinD on Sun Nov 19, 2017 3:22 pm

Murph wrote:Just once I'd like to see SVG start Harris at SF and Tolliver at PF, and bring SJ off the bench.  That move would improve our starting lineup and our bench.

And move Kennard back to reserve SG, and make him compete with Galloway for minutes.  

No more smallball!
This is the best and most reasonable idea to invigorate the starting lineup, would open a bit of room for Ellensen, and give SJ the reins needed to get his azz in gear.  We wonder why we have so many slow starts, but having another scoring option in the starting lineup couldn't hurt.  

It can't hurt to try it.  And can we try AB and Kennard in the backcourt with Kennard playmaking.
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Outstanding Bench/Inept Puppetmaster

Post  deusXango on Sat Nov 18, 2017 12:52 pm

Stanley Johnson: I can't for the life of me understand why SVG won't get in this boys ass and stop him from shooting anything but corner 3's; play smothering defense for 85-90% of his time on the floor and leave the offense to the gifted offensive players....he ain't one of them!

Reggie Jackson: When I was on Reggie's ass this past summer, I wasn't totally wrong; that knee may go at anytime and his asthmatic condition is definitely here to stay, at his age (even on fast breaks he seems to labor more than he should). Right now he's closer to playing up to his contract than he was last year, but there's no possible upgrade trade that can be made now, so I'm all for keeping him for the time being.

Andre Drummond: The man is simply coming into his own...there are not many better big men in the entire NBA! It's time to stop looking at his contract and start looking (with honest eyes) at his game and the efforts to improve he's made.

Avery Bradley and Tobias Harris: These two are developing into something special...give 'em time.

Now on to this stunning bench, that's currently being misused, but is IMHO the best in the NBA....what was wrong with playing Boban on John Henson and Eric Moreland on the "Greek Freak?" The Freak is MVP material based on athleticism alone, because it's being displayed in a 6' 11" solid frame. Henson ain't that good to have a game determining impact on the Pistons; no one stops the "Greek Freak," but he can be slowed down. The Bucks game could've had a different outcome.

Similar observations can be made for each of our losses, but they're on the books and after whist makes no sense; SVG is learning and I expect that by seasons end we'll be an entirely different team, from the guy in the suit on the bench to the head coach. I'm pleasantly surprised with what I've seen so far, losses included, and hopeful that the exciting brand of basketball the Pistons are playing continues. Players are learning their roles and the intelligence quotient has gone up tremendously; the players are playing for each other instead of for themselves and that to me is the difference maker.

Bench Standouts: This early in the season, it's difficult to anoint anyone, but thus far, Ish Smith, Langston Galloway, Luke Kennard, Eric Moreland, and my favorite, Anthony Tolliver have been gold!
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Not Next Level On The Mental Front

Post  WTF on Sat Nov 18, 2017 11:25 am

Cavs and Bucks are now just a 1.5 games behind and Indy 2 games behind are you worried yet?  The players are making all the right comments after these past couple of losses now lets see how they respond the next 5 games.

SVG is going to panic if the team loses the next 4 games and resort back to old thinking.
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SJ

Post  Murph on Sat Nov 18, 2017 8:08 am

Do you realize Stanley Johnson is a career 37% shooter...from the small forward position???  And again this season, SJ's bricking-up shots at a rate of 38%.  We just can't have a starting small forward who shoots 38%.  

And based on the number of shots Johnson takes per game, it's clear that he doesn't even know how bad he is.

SVG...please remove your head from your ass, and make a lineup change.
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Just Once...

Post  Murph on Sat Nov 18, 2017 7:21 am

Just once I'd like to see SVG start Harris at SF and Tolliver at PF, and bring SJ off the bench.  That move would improve our starting lineup and our bench.

And move Kennard back to reserve SG, and make him compete with Galloway for minutes.

No more smallball!
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Kennard and SJ

Post  Murph on Sat Nov 18, 2017 6:43 am

I guess we found out why Luke Kennard shouldn't play SF in a three guard offense.  Kennard's complete inability to contain Stephenson eventually led to Stephenson taking over the game in the 4th quarter.  Stephenson had 13 points and 6 rbds in the 4th quarter alone, and was a +16 on the night.

Stanley Johnson sucked to high heaven last night also.  Stanley once again shot himself into oblivion by going 1-9 from the floor, including 1-5 from the 3 point line.  And here I thought SJ was playing so he could defend guys like Stephenson, not so he could shoot 11% from the floor.  Silly me.

We really need Stanley Johnson to play smart basketball, if we're going to go anywhere this season.  And we need a real reserve SF, not a skinny white shooting guard masquerading as a SF.
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Look Out!!!!!

Post  WTF on Sat Nov 18, 2017 12:52 am

This was the most winnable games of this current stretch of games I'm not sure they beat Minny weekend and I don't think they'll catch the Cavs sleeping nor will Boston be sleeping. They could pull off an OKC upset but I'm not banking on it.

People we could be looking at 4 or 5 game losing streak.   Really if they don't right this quickly the rest of November could be ugly.

How do you blow a 22 point lead?
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OMFG

Post  BallinD on Fri Nov 17, 2017 11:01 pm

SVG... SMH facepalm preached he didn't want success to go to the team's head. But joke's on him. It's his thick head that's causing the problems. He snatched another defeat from the jaws of victory. Can't get out of his own way Sad

Stupid Van Gundy
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Re: FORUM

Post  cool breeze on Fri Nov 17, 2017 5:15 pm

Murph wrote:"And really, really, really, they need to scrap this Defensive Rating metric, if it actually somehow rated AD as leading the NBA in defensive rating last year...Shame!"

I didn't even realize Drummond led the league in defensive rating last year.  Impressive.

I don't think there's any esoteric formula behind the DRAT figure.  It's a straightforward number indicating how many points on average opponents score per 100 possessions when specific players are in the game.

The fact that teams scored the fewest number of points per 100 possessions when Drummond was in the game for Detroit last year is an indication just how important rebounding is..  It's not the Drummond is a great defender; Drummond is a great rebounder.  By rebounding, Drummond keeps the ball out of the hands of the other team.  And needless to say, it's impossible to score when you don't have possession of the ball, which explains Dummond's outstanding DRAT numbers.


Murph my best guess with all of the metrics that has been created over the last few seasons is that all involve corrupted input by player agents who have hired the geeks to come up with favorable information for their clients. Danny Ainge laughs that this type of nonsense. If AD was not the worst center among all starting centers relating to protecting the paint and shot blocking then Pee Wee Herman was a leading man in Hollywood when he was alive. Yes Pee Wee was a man hot women wanted to snuggle up with on the silver screen. If only that incident at the movie theatre had never happened. I wonder if there are any stats involving how many second chance opportunities opponents get when AD is playing defense? He does not challenge shots most of the time. He doesn't box out at all. AD switches off centers on to guards when his teammate is in position to defend the guard forcing the guard to switch over to the center. Good luck with that Ish. When a top NBA center plays against AD like Anthony Davis it becomes real brutal where Davis gets anything he wants at any area of the floor. I notice that AD at times shuffles in a nice defensive stance in the paint but he has no plan while doing it. He is not guarding anyone. He knows that he should get his legs bent more and does it but there is nobody in the area when he does that shuffle thing. But I am pleased that he is practicing the correct defensive positioning. Now if he could step out and stop a penetrator and keep his arms up and block some shots.

Over the past two games, I have noticed that Avery Bradley has talked to AD after a ref stops play. Those times are when AD has been out of position on defense. Maybe over time players like Bradley will be able to get AD in better shape mentally to help his team more as a paint protector. For sure no coach has been able to have any success with him so far. In college AD would sulk if any assistant coach mentioned something AD had done wrong on defense. He was very defensive minded which prevented any growth. I wonder what it is like for the coaches to deal with AD. My best guess is that they all tip toe around and try not to make him feel bad knowing he will have even less confidence on the defensive end which always leads to AD giving less energy. But if only AD could lose 30 more pounds to go with the weight he has already dropped, maybe that in itself would make him more energetic on defense. There is no question in my mind that AD is carrying too much weight. Maybe he will drop another 30 pounds next summer. Against some teams AD is more mentally ready than others which is a common problem for most centers at all levels. Very difficult to predict how AD will come out of the gate from game to game. But he is a better player so far than last season. Making more free throws keeps him in the game but when he has bad moments like last season such as not boxing out Whiteside and giving up that easy tip in for the Miami, who can be confident AD will be able to respond the right way when teams decide to go at him? Teams are still going at him as part of their game plan. That is what happened in the first quarter in the Bucks game. The Bucks players had no fear that AD was standing in the paint when they went up for those shots and offensive rebounds. They were forced to shoot the ball from the outside once Moreland came in to relieve AD.

I know I rag on AD maybe too much but as long as he is playing for Detroit one has to keep hoping that he will suddenly figure things out and have enough desire to provide the Pistons with what they need most - paint protector and shot blocker. I just do not see that ever happening though. He is not a quick thinker on defense like he is on offense. Opposing teams have this game plan. Keep AD off the offensive glass. Attack AD in the paint at every opportunity. Detroit has no second line of defense in the paint with the starting big men. It is up to the 2 guard and small forward to help clog up the painted area. It is very easy to get layups against the Pistons starting unit if a team is patient.

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DRAT

Post  Murph on Fri Nov 17, 2017 2:11 pm

"And really, really, really, they need to scrap this Defensive Rating metric, if it actually somehow rated AD as leading the NBA in defensive rating last year...Shame!"

I didn't even realize Drummond led the league in defensive rating last year.  Impressive.

I don't think there's any esoteric formula behind the DRAT figure.  It's a straightforward number indicating how many points on average opponents score per 100 possessions when specific players are in the game.

The fact that teams scored the fewest number of points per 100 possessions when Drummond was in the game for Detroit last year is an indication just how important rebounding is..  It's not the Drummond is a great defender; Drummond is a great rebounder.  By rebounding, Drummond keeps the ball out of the hands of the other team.  And needless to say, it's impossible to score when you don't have possession of the ball, which explains Dummond's outstanding DRAT numbers.

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Yes and Phuque No!

Post  BallinD on Fri Nov 17, 2017 1:40 pm

WTF wrote:Really doesn't matter how much SVG trust him right now just know that he can't get there if you don't play him.  I'm just confused that with all the clear and visible talent and fundamental of this kid why he doesn't get PT every night period be it 20 minutes or 5 minutes. 

It's clear this kid is special and rare so don't freaking mess this up just freaking play him.  You have three positions (PG, SG, and SF) where you could give this kid minutes.   How nice it would have been to go with a bigger line up last night using Kennard at PG and sliding SJ and Harris into the SG and SF position.  

Don't be a doofus just play him.
 Preaching to the Choir.  Play him, play more three-guard lineups.
Do it!  We know he is a doofus, but I'm actually surprised he is playing him this much.  Your recommendation is spot on!

On Moose, Phuque No!  Does he protect the rim?  We need either a rim protector or a shooter.  He is neither!  I can't get the fascination with his potential return.  If it is instant offense off the bench, Boban is a better answer and will block shots at the rim.

Can Moose hit a shot? other than a layup or a long layup?  The only thing he can do is get to the foul line and rebound a bit.  Does he go hard?  No!  A better coach than SVG threw him away, but also was smart enough to find a return in value for him.  Stupid Van Gundy. We need to be collecting picks, rather than throwing them away!

And really, really, really, they need to scrap this Defensive Rating metric, if it actually somehow rated AD as leading the NBA in defensive rating last year...Shame!
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Last comment for the day - Slack coaching discipline relating to telling Reggie Jackson who is in charge and what he needs to do to start a half court offense

Post  cool breeze on Fri Nov 17, 2017 11:40 am

SVG wants his starters to play more of an up tempo style after opposing teams make shots. One bad habit that the coaching staff has failed to break involving Reggie Jackson's lackluster walk up the court after the ball is inbounded. I think many of you know what Reggie is doing while the seconds tick off the shot clock as Reggie slowly walks while dribbling the basketball up to half court. Reggie is coasting or trying to rest a bit and every team in the league loves it when he does it. Opposing players get a nice rest while Reggie does that. How he gets away with it is amazing to me. Maybe Labron does that when he plays point guard. I get that because Labron plays really hard on the defensive end. He needs the rest. But Reggie gives very little effort on defense and then does a slow walk before attacking the opposing defense. The point guard is supposed to be alert at all times not resting. The point guard is supposed to get the damn ball to a wing player quickly on either side of the court. Whoever is open on either wing should be getting the ball within at least the first 6 seconds off the shot clock. It gets really bad in crunch time when Reggie walks the ball up the court and then doesn't make one pass at all while trying to score against 5 opposing players. Somehow he can pull that trick off at times but in the long run, his success will be about 15% as the season moves forward and opposing teams know what is going to happen. The Pistons are an up tempo team and the head of the snake is playing a slow down half court type game looking for a pick and roll opportunity. Everyone knows it is coming. There are no surprises with the Pistons.

The other huge error occurs with both Jackson and Smith at the end of a quarter when Detroit has the last possession. Why is it that no play is even attempted in those situations. Every time the Pistons get the last opportunity either Smith or Jackson go solo against all five defenders. Are either of our point guards that good? Can the team not run a set play that involves more than one players. I think that the team has failed to score in those situations 90% of the time so far. My question is what in hell are the coaches doing in practice to create a better opportunity for the last shot at the end of a quarter? who has control of what is going to happen in those situations relating to team strategy? It seems either the coaches are completely ineffective or the point guards are not coachable. Take your pick. As the season moves on watch to see if anything changes. It didn't last season. Meanwhile I see Luke Walton's team actually running something a bit more complex. Brad Stevens also has plays for those situations too. I can't imagine that SVG doesn't work with his players on last possessions. I would say that Smith does this more than Reggie. I always know that there is no chance in hell that the Pistons are going to make a basketball to end a quarter if given the opportunity on a side out of bounds or an inbound play under the basket. It will be Smith trying to do the impossible or Reggie doing that same thing. Labron might be able to do that type of thing but come on this is pretty lame SVG. Is our coach a figure head or a real coach?

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Re: FORUM

Post  cool breeze on Fri Nov 17, 2017 10:47 am

Murph wrote:
WTF wrote:
DX I almost fill you on this but maybe for different reason or perhaps the same reasons.  I did think about the pros and cons of such a move and the cons kind of out weighed any pros.

Cons
1. I wouldn't include a  1st round drafted pick but would be willing to offer up Boban along with JL and maybe a 2nd round pick. 
2. Not sure what's going with him health wise and there's no Kander here to fix whatever is wrong.
3. There has to be something seriously going on beyond health as well that you would sit a player making 17 million a season as the Bucks did and now the Suns are open to trading him.  
4. Will he be willing to accept a bench role? I think so if he's gathered anything from the tough lessons he just received from both the Bucks and Suns.  

Pros
1. One if healthy I think he's a better than both Boban and JL and makes the team that more versatile because he's a definite low post option.  I think the team has morphed into far different team since he's left and he might be more suited now.
2. Not sure but I think his contract is up after this season or next so what do we have to lose, it not like we're giving up much to get him. I think there's adequate shooting on the team now that we don't have to rely on him being able to hit mid-range shots
3. Could be a great comeback story if he actually come back and contribute to a winning seasons and playoff run.


Cons

1.  There is no way the Suns are going to take back Leuer AND Boban.  Those are SVG's two worst contracts.
2.  Monroe is healthy.  He started last night for the Suns, played 26 minutes, and had 20 pts, 11 rbds and 2 stls.
3.  See above.
4.  Yes, Monroe would have to come off the bench, like he did in Milwaukee.


Pros

1.  Monroe is healthy.  
2.  Yes, his contract is up at the end of the season, so there's no risk of taking on a bad contract.  In fact, we would get rid of a bad contract (Leuer's).
3.  Yes, it would be a great success story.

How about trading AD for Monroe and two Suns first round picks? We keep our pick and get perhaps a top pick to draft a center and point guard. Both AD and Monroe are below average defenders and our team needs at least one starter who is a rim and paint protector in the long run to win anything. Maybe swap the Suns first round pick Jackson for Johnson if the Suns were interested in improving their defense that might make the deal work. We lose a $24 mil contract in the process and I think Monroe is more consistent on both ends than AD. If it doesn't work out the Pistons lose Monroe's contract. Maybe the Suns would not be interested. Their management wants to build a championship team through the draft which is what we should be doing. Again, no team can win in the playoffs without at least one big man either a power forward or center doing the hard no nonsense work it takes to protect the paint and block shots. There are not too many players who can provide that skill in today's NBA. Somehow the Pistons need to create a player like that. Neither Monroe or AD can provide that skill set. They need a big athletic defender playing next to them to make up for their unforced mental errors. The Pistons have three below average defenders in the starting lineup. Harris is one of my favorite players but he is not big enough to cover up for AD's mistakes on defense. In fact Harris has a lot of difficulty defending many power forwards as well. AD is well AD and we all know he is AWOl 70% of the time on defense. Then we have Reggie who is actually playing better defense this season but still is extremely weak and ineffective in most of his matchups. Bradley and Johnson or whoever plays small forward if you don't like Johnson have to cover for the mistakes of three starters and they cannot match up against opposing big men. At times AD switches for no reason and the result is that Bradley or Johnson are playing against a 7 footer. Pure madness. But I like the idea of trading AD for Monroe with the Pistons not giving up their first round pick. This coming year will have more really good prospects in the draft. The young players are now getting better coaching relating to defense in AAU ball. Some of the freshman in college this season surprise me as to their quick recognition skill set and how athletic they are. The players keep getting bigger and stronger when they are only 18. Crazy! I don't want the Pistons to lose out on some of those young studs.

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What Pistons management should do before the trade deadline to increase chances of becoming a top tier team

Post  cool breeze on Fri Nov 17, 2017 10:13 am

Most of us are not fooled by this great start this Piston team has had. When opposing teams start to scout the Piston roster, they will do what the Lakers did in their first meeting this season.

1. Opposing teams will find out that neither point guard on this Piston team can hold their own on defense. That is a huge weakness because of how many top tier point guards are now playing on opposing teams. And in the last meeting with the Bucks, it was clear that that team has two really good point guards although i am not really high on Bledsoe. Yet Bledsoe has the potential to become much better than either of our point guards. The Pistons lack one top tier point guard. To become a contender in today's game, most teams need two really good high basketball IQ point guards. I do not dislike
either Reggie or Ish and believe they are a better combination than the Pistons have had in recent years. Yet I do not believe the team can win a championship with them. SVG is not playing any point guards who can properly defend good NBA level point guards. Reggie has the ability but so far has not provided the extreme effort needed to achieve greatness. And he struggles running the offense that works best for this team. Smith runs the motion offense better. But as Brogdon proved in the last game, if you isolate him on Smith as Kidd was able to do, Smith just cannot match up because of his smaller size.

2. The Bucks proved that the Pistons lack a starting caliber big man who can defend the paint relating to offering a second line of defense when penetrators get close to the basket. I watch AD closely trying to figure out why he cannot figure out what he needs to do when trying to defend in the paint. Right now he looks tired much of the time and it is early in the season. He seldom sprints hard from baseline to baseline and never when he is going for offense to defense. When he gets back on defense he is slow to react and offers little to no resistance 75% of the time. It looks to me like he needs to lose at least 30 more pounds before he can reach his potential as an all around solid NBA player. Meanwhile Detroit has no power forward to accomplish the job this team needs to protect the paint when AD is in the game. The Pistons have two defective players on the defensive end in the starting unit occupying power forward and center to start games. Moreland is the best rim protector and paint protector on this team. He at least knows what to do and can anticipate how opponents are trying to score in the paint and he gets to those areas while helping teammates with their assigned opponent players. Ben Wallace was never a gifted basketball player in terms of the way many fans judge players. Most look at the scoring stats. Ben turned himself into the player the Pistons needed at the time they won the championship. Without the type of player Ben Became, Detroit could not have won much of anything. He was no offensive threat but that was OK. That team had a shot blocker and rim protector who contested every shot attempted close to the basket. Opposing teams hated playing against him. His teammates loved him. He created great team chemistry. Again there is no evidence after watching last season and so far this season that either Harris or Drummond can offer what this team has to have to become a great team. Watching AD play defense in the paint tells me that right now after watching about 12 college basketball games so far that a there are college centers who could help out Piston team much better in the area of paint defense than AD will ever be able to accomplish and they are more highly skilled shot makers. AD offers incredible offensive rebounding at times. I love it when he over powers everyone to get those rebounds. I like the fact that AD is trying harder but his recognition skill set is lacking so badly on defense that is actually gets in the way of other teammates who are trying to stop some of those easy layups and second chance close in shot attempts opponents are getting when they play the Pistons. Yet stats show that he gets his share of steals. But it actually means nothing to his team because of how many easy shots inside the paint opponents made each game. If the Pistons are going to continue to pay AD up to $25Mil a year, then they need to acquire a really big and quick defensive specialist who can play power forward next to AD. The team will have to give up scoring that a player like Harris offers but that is the only answer that I can come up with. AD will never be a threat or scare anybody who is trying to score around the rim. He just cannot react quickly enough and cannot anticipate how opponents are trying to score. I kept the Laker game and noticed how many times the Lakers picked on AD inside the paint. At the time, SVG matched up AD with Jon Leuer a lot and that was a disaster. SVG didn't seem to notice either which shows me he was completely outclassed by the Laker coaching staff. I am really impressed with Luke Walton's staff. His assistant coaches really do their homework finding defects on opponents rosters and with Ball running the point, he is able to zero in on those glaring defects. The Lakers are a young team and need a few more high basketball IQ players but they are on their way to becoming much better. It seems that SVG's staff does not do their homework from game to game and the Piston team keeps playing the same way regardless of their competition. They do not take advantage of weaknesses in opposing teams because their point guards never alter the way they run the Piston offense.

If someone disagrees with my observations than please enlighten me. This team can only go so far and for sure not to the top of the heap. I see no reason not to switch Bradley over to play point guard if Reggie Jackson can be traded before the deadline. If Piston management could score something really great by trading AD, I am for doing it this season especially because AD is building up big stats on the offensive end relating to offensive rebounds. AD is working much harder on offense this season I think because with the new offense, he is touching the ball more and has become a key player in the passing game. If only he could get excited like that on defense but I think he is playing about as good as he is capable of on defense and it won't get much better knowing that this is his 6th season. If Detroit could make a trade to secure one or two first round picks which would have to be a pick that could possibly end up as the number one or two overall pick, then I would have no worry that this team could draft a better center or a top tier point guard. Not sure if the Pistons could get a top tier first round pick for Reggie. But maybe they could get a decent player or a number on pick in future years. If both are traded the Pistons lose some big contracts which paces them in a much better position to sign a top tier player at either the point or center. As for now, if I were the coach I would consider moving Bradley to point guard and Jackson to the 2 depending on matchups being Jackson is a liability playing defense at either position. The other option that could strengthen the Piston defense might be to move Harris to the 3 again depending on matchups because Harris as difficulty defending quick players. But his shooting is key to Piston success. Then start Moreland at the power forward spot and give up scoring potential for great paint protection. I know none of you would agree with me on that idea but I sure would love to see SVG try it if only for a few minutes when opponents are scoring at will close to the basket like they have been doing now all season and for the entire season last year. Long team success depends on who the Pistons can get in the draft when thinking about creating a team that could win a championship. I think this coaching staff and management team is content to have average success though so i would bet that there is about a 10% chance of either Jackson or Drummond being moved. So next season will look much like this season. Ups and downs with very little consistency and most of the wins the Pistons will have will be created by the players coming off the bench. Our bench players have fantastic team chemistry right now. And I sure would love to have either Boston's, Lakers, or Golden States' coaching staff moving forward. The Pistons are doing well right now and I love it. Just wanted to offer my thoughts moving forward as to what it might take for our team to make it to the finals within the next 5 years.

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Re: FORUM

Post  Murph on Fri Nov 17, 2017 2:12 am

WTF wrote:
DX I almost fill you on this but maybe for different reason or perhaps the same reasons.  I did think about the pros and cons of such a move and the cons kind of out weighed any pros.

Cons
1. I wouldn't include a  1st round drafted pick but would be willing to offer up Boban along with JL and maybe a 2nd round pick. 
2. Not sure what's going with him health wise and there's no Kander here to fix whatever is wrong.
3. There has to be something seriously going on beyond health as well that you would sit a player making 17 million a season as the Bucks did and now the Suns are open to trading him.  
4. Will he be willing to accept a bench role? I think so if he's gathered anything from the tough lessons he just received from both the Bucks and Suns.  

Pros
1. One if healthy I think he's a better than both Boban and JL and makes the team that more versatile because he's a definite low post option.  I think the team has morphed into far different team since he's left and he might be more suited now.
2. Not sure but I think his contract is up after this season or next so what do we have to lose, it not like we're giving up much to get him. I think there's adequate shooting on the team now that we don't have to rely on him being able to hit mid-range shots
3. Could be a great comeback story if he actually come back and contribute to a winning seasons and playoff run.


Cons

1.  There is no way the Suns are going to take back Leuer AND Boban.  Those are SVG's two worst contracts.
2.  Monroe is healthy.  He started last night for the Suns, played 26 minutes, and had 20 pts, 11 rbds and 2 stls.
3.  See above.
4.  Yes, Monroe would have to come off the bench, like he did in Milwaukee.


Pros

1.  Monroe is healthy.  
2.  Yes, his contract is up at the end of the season, so there's no risk of taking on a bad contract. In fact, we would get rid of a bad contract (Leuer's).
3.  Yes, it would be a great success story.
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I Say It Won't Hurt

Post  WTF on Thu Nov 16, 2017 8:55 pm

deusXango wrote:
WTF wrote:
Murph wrote:Leuer and a 1st round pick for Monroe.
 Tough call I think
PHUQUE NO!!!!!

DX I almost fill you on this but maybe for different reason or perhaps the same reasons.  I did think about the pros and cons of such a move and the cons kind of out weighed any pros.

Cons
1. I wouldn't include a  1st round drafted pick but would be willing to offer up Boban along with JL and maybe a 2nd round pick. 
2. Not sure what's going with him health wise and there's no Kander here to fix whatever is wrong.
3. There has to be something seriously going on beyond health as well that you would sit a player making 17 million a season as the Bucks did and now the Suns are open to trading him.  
4. Will he be willing to accept a bench role? I think so if he's gathered anything from the tough lessons he just received from both the Bucks and Suns.  

Pros
1. One if healthy I think he's a better than both Boban and JL and makes the team that more versatile because he's a definite low post option.  I think the team has morphed into far different team since he's left and he might be more suited now.
2. Not sure but I think his contract is up after this season or next so what do we have to lose, it not like we're giving up much to get him. I think there's adequate shooting on the team now that we don't have to rely on him being able to hit mid-range shots
3. Could be a great comeback story if he actually come back and contribute to a winning seasons and playoff run.
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Re: FORUM

Post  cool breeze on Thu Nov 16, 2017 8:42 pm

lemonpen wrote:
BallinD wrote:Good Game but...

16 blocks, pitiful, but them Bucks are long and we are not.  No rim protection except from Moreland, Dre?? facepalm

Kennard is gonna be a revelation by the end of the season; already he is using his "short arms" to elbow his way into a prominent place in the rotation  lol

Dre is fast on the jump-tip, but still soooo slow to jump for a block if he jumps at all.  Still lackluster on D, from what I see, though his passing is becoming impressive.  Better than Weggie's.  No show!

Possibly coulda used Boban in there to create mismatches and scoring since our offense sputtered down the stretch and we had no one who could score consistently outside of Avery.  Woulda been nice to see him get some shots in over the long arm of the Bucks...Stupid Van Gundy.



No to the return of the Moose.  I would rather have Randle.  We need more athleticism...period.

3 Bucks being draped over every attempted layup left me wondering what happened to ball fakes and the draw and dish.

It's opponents like this where AD's lack of fundamental blocking out hurts.

Eric Moreland did some good things but IMO dang near all of it was negated on the offensive end.  Turnovers, mishandles and personal fouls.  Too often he pushes us close to the bonus in the first 3 minutes of a quarter.

Someone calm Galloway down.  Dude hits two sorta ill advised 3s then goes hoist crazy, never really setting up for any of them.

I really get a kick at how many um Brothers get all aggressive after Luke like it's personal or something.  Only to receive a minor schooling.

Regarding Moreland Lemonpen I respectfully disagree with you relating to Moreland's contribution in that game. I thought he changed everything relating how the Bucks had been attacking the Piston defense. He moved from one side of the low post to the opposite side quickly helping shutting off drive attempts and he actually challenged shots making some really difficult blocks. His energy on defense was what the Pistons needed at the time. Otherwise, I think the Bucks would have built a 20 point lead before halftime. AD actually came back in to relieve Moreland and played much harder on defense. It was clear to me that the Bucks were attacking the paint at the beginning of the game because they know how dysfunctional AD is most of the time. He looks lost or off kilter when the skill players attack the paint. There is no 2nd line of defense after the perimeter players give up penetration or lose cutters because of weak side screens. Moreland at least was extremely active and did challenge a lot of shots which forced the Bucks to shoot more low percentage shots then they did until he checked in. Every player on the team made mistakes on offense. If they make those mistakes playing with guts and all it doesn't bother me. If they make mistakes giving half an effort or running from baseline at less than full speed then I get worried.

The good news is that this team has some players who do not give up or so far that is the case. Smith and Jackson both were not of the same cut of the Bucks point guards. I would love to have the Bucks back up point guard. He attacked Smith in the first half many times and seemed to score at will against him. Smith could not get off a shot that was not blocked as well. But he was still better than Reggie last night because he got the first pass off to initiate the Piston offense. I feel encouraged from this game being that the Pistons were able to make it a close game right up to the end and the game was played in Bucks Land. Before the season started, I thought the Bucks would beat Detroit badly in every matchup. Many Piston players gave a great effort which is what I love to see more than anything.

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Kennard

Post  WTF on Thu Nov 16, 2017 8:34 pm

Really doesn't matter how much SVG trust him right now just know that he can't get there if you don't play him.  I'm just confused that with all the clear and visible talent and fundamental of this kid why he doesn't get PT every night period be it 20 minutes or 5 minutes. 

It's clear this kid is special and rare so don't freaking mess this up just freaking play him.  You have three positions (PG, SG, and SF) where you could give this kid minutes.   How nice it would have been to go with a bigger line up last night using Kennard at PG and sliding SJ and Harris into the SG and SF position.  

Don't be a doofus just play him.
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Monroe's Return To Detroit

Post  deusXango on Thu Nov 16, 2017 8:33 pm

WTF wrote:
Murph wrote:Leuer and a 1st round pick for Monroe.
 Tough call I think
PHUQUE NO!!!!!
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OTOH is Right

Post  lemonpen on Thu Nov 16, 2017 6:11 pm

BallinD wrote:Good Game but...

16 blocks, pitiful, but them Bucks are long and we are not.  No rim protection except from Moreland, Dre?? facepalm

Kennard is gonna be a revelation by the end of the season; already he is using his "short arms" to elbow his way into a prominent place in the rotation  lol

Dre is fast on the jump-tip, but still soooo slow to jump for a block if he jumps at all.  Still lackluster on D, from what I see, though his passing is becoming impressive.  Better than Weggie's.  No show!

Possibly coulda used Boban in there to create mismatches and scoring since our offense sputtered down the stretch and we had no one who could score consistently outside of Avery.  Woulda been nice to see him get some shots in over the long arm of the Bucks...Stupid Van Gundy.



No to the return of the Moose.  I would rather have Randle.  We need more athleticism...period.

3 Bucks being draped over every attempted layup left me wondering what happened to ball fakes and the draw and dish.

It's opponents like this where AD's lack of fundamental blocking out hurts.

Eric Moreland did some good things but IMO dang near all of it was negated on the offensive end. Turnovers, mishandles and personal fouls. Too often he pushes us close to the bonus in the first 3 minutes of a quarter.

Someone calm Galloway down. Dude hits two sorta ill advised 3s then goes hoist crazy, never really setting up for any of them.

I really get a kick at how many um Brothers get all aggressive after Luke like it's personal or something. Only to receive a minor schooling.
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Re: FORUM

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