NBA TV Isiah and Magic

[BallinD]

Guys, if you get a chance, NBA TV has a great great show of the duet with Zeke and Magic sitting down to reconcile and really talk about strategy, competition and war in the NBA.  Isaiah and Magic.  The archival vid clips and pics of their relationship are amazing!  Golden years of the NBA.  Glad to see it.  They talk about Bball, business, social justice, the whole enchilada.  What their reconciliation means.  Magic apologized, they both cried and hugged.  Good stuff.

It really reveals the kind of players we need on this team and IMO, Dre will never be that kind of player, but I believe he is starting to sniff what it means to be that kind of player.  I want to see a lot more Kennard, Ellensen and Bullock, but realistically, we need that straw to stir the drink.  Maybe Weggie is the best we can get, but I doubt it.  I know Kemba is a more completely competitive player, seems to go harder.  Maybe Weggie has another gear we will see after the ASB.  Maybe we will see that on another team.  So Weggie for Kemba is a yes from me!

It is so hard to know what is really going on with this team, and I am not confident that SVG can magically pull it together and make it hum again, like he did at the beginning of the season. But the fact that he did that encourages me he could do other things this year, but regardless of that, he's got to go, IMO  Nothing will really change until he does.  He clearly is befuddled with game management, play-calls, substitutions.  We will continue to be mediocre.

I would trade Weggie, if he can fetch us something for the future.  I want a pick! first, second and third.  We need transcendent talent. I would love to have Kemba's competitiveness and I could be wrong, but I think SVG would ruin him, but then he would probably ruin the young transcendent draft pick also, so there is that.

So many questions, so little time.  Is Tobias a piece to keep and build around?  Should we continue to let SJ grow and develop?  How best to use the abundant skills of Kennard? Can Dre continue to develop? Can he develop a facing 10-15 ft jumper to make the starting five a bit more honest?  Has the motion offense fizzled now that teams have scouted it out?  What else do we have?  Another playmaker at the 2-3.  We could trade Avery or we could keep him.  He is injury prone as Oracle has pointed out, so trading him at the deadline for a piece and a pick in a package deal might work.  Will Leuer ever come back so we can trade him?

[Oracle]

But that doesn't mean you aren't right!!!

I'd take Kemba in a heartbeat, he's a huge upgrade over Reggie, IMO.

But if we got him, I'd also look to invest in a bigger backup PG, or really make a strong move to try Kennard at backup PG.

I hate to put the rookie in a tough spot, but it would also serve to get him longer minutes for us to get some development done!

[WTF]

I remember when we drafted Dinwiddie I liked his size, and he reminded be of CB because he always looked under control and steady.  Seeing him doing his thing in Brooklyn makes me wish we still had him.  I can almost visualize him and Kennard sharing the backcourt.  

Yeah SVG and Joe both idiots  Kennard SG, Dinwiddie PG, Middleton SF, Ellenson PF and Drummond C sounds good enough to me.   SVG is going to make same mistakes with both Ellenson and Kennard. He needs to be fired before that happens.

[WTF]

I see Kemba Walker is on the trading block, and his contract is very reasonable at $12 million per year for the next 1 1/2 years. I would love to see him in a Pistons uniform, but I realize I'm not exactly the most objective fan when it comes to former UConn players. Is he an upgrade over Reggie? Would anyone else trade for him?

Murph I would move Reggie for just about any currently starting PG but right now I prefer picks over players because we really need to find our way into drafting in the top 5 the next 2 drafts if we have any real hope of landing a star player.  I liked Kemba and preferred him over Knight and as crazy as this sound I even preferred him over Kyrie.

[WTF]

I see Kemba Walker is on the trading block, and his contract is very reasonable at $12 million per year for the next 1 1/2 years.  I would love to see him in a Pistons uniform, but I realize I'm not exactly the most objective fan when it comes to former UConn players.  Is he an upgrade over Reggie?  Would anyone else trade for him?


Oracle, my comments were directed more toward Don and Wise.  IMO they're two of the most knowledgeable members of this forum, and it pains me to see them go at each other.

It's not me Murph I don't look to go at Donald but he really needs to stop again with these borderline racial comments.   I'm tired of him trashing the city as if he's living there in the midst of all his perceived notions about what it must be like.

Murph I know this is a sports forum but I don't mind when we get off topic as long as we're being adult about it.  Sadly I suppose is that a lot of politics and other social matters have spilled over into sports especially in the NFL and NBA.  I just think these things can be discuss in a respectful manner IMO. But I mean what I said Don don't get to take all those free shots which I find racial without being called out on them.

[Murph]

I see Kemba Walker is on the trading block, and his contract is very reasonable at $12 million per year for the next 1 1/2 years. I would love to see him in a Pistons uniform, but I realize I'm not exactly the most objective fan when it comes to former UConn players. Is he an upgrade over Reggie? Would anyone else trade for him?


Oracle, my comments were directed more toward Don and Wise. IMO they're two of the most knowledgeable members of this forum, and it pains me to see them go at each other.

[Oracle]

Where statement of fact, or using someone's own words drives somewhat unexpected responses.

Yes, he is hurt again, as you predicted, but I think this is a weird blessing in disguise, giving important PT to Bullock and Kennard, which helps us in the long run.  KCP is unable to play road games for LA right now, due to his infraction (drinking) so I am just happy we can play Bullock and Galloway and Langston.  

Unlike you I have no desire to heap ridicule on a good, hard-nosed player like AB. 

Just for clarification, I didn't predict, I looked at the fact that AB has NEVER played a full season in his entire career, and came to the conclusion that the probability that he would be hurt, yet again, this season was approaching 100%. That's the definition of a gimpy player where I come from.

I recognized this and didn't use it to say don't get him, I'm ecstatic that we did, my point was the lunacy of thinking we would want to resign him, the logic of which was totally lost on most here. I got the same knee jerk reaction that facts constitute hate. Your attempt to weave in KCP was really strange, it made absolutely no sense in that sentence, so I guess you have no problem leveling real hate at a good hard-nosed player for no reason at all(your standards). 

I don't mind, I wished KCP luck but now I have bigger fish to fry here with the team I love and still root for to win. I don't have a problem rooting for them to win, no player on the team can change that for me, but that never stops me from seeing where we need to go. Although I admit that I should be happier that we'll make the playoffs, but I know that accomplishing that goal also limits our future, so there's that.

@Murph: Yes, I mentioned the President(used his words), probably not a good choice, but only in a joking way to attack SVG. But you're right, these are sensitive times, why is another question, I haven't seen a President that I didn't make jokes about, but in recent years tempers flare.

We're in big trouble, but as you said, I'd also like to keep this as a "safe haven" as much as possible... I hear you!

On Kennard, any chance he had at rookie of the year has been killed by SVG. It was going to be a hard competition anyway with Kuzma in LA playing like a monster and Mitchell in Utah, but he deserved his chance to make his case.

[Murph]

I see The Turd is hell bent on relegating Kennard to the doghouse and ruining his first few years in the league, the way he has Stanley Johnson and Henry Ellenson.

Earth to the Turd: The over-paid roll players that you've collected aren't that great. You need to develop some new blood on this team. But you aren't going to do it by publically castigating and then benching our rookies and young players, every time they make a mistake!!!

Have I mention lately how much I hate that big fat steaming Turd?

[Murph]

I pretty much agree with all the negative comments about the Knicks game.  The only caveat to all those criticisms is that the Knicks are a pretty good team.  They have a couple of next level players.  Portzingis will be a Hall of Famer if he remains healthy throughout his career, and Kantor is a borderline All Star.  They also have a number of cagey veterans (Jarret Jack, Courtney Lee, Kyle O'Quinn) who are smart and know how to maximize their skills for the good of the team.  My point is that there is no shame in just barely beating the Knicks in the last minute of play.  The Knicks are good and getting better.


The other point I'd like to make is that could we PLEASE stay on topic in this forum and stick to sports???  We live in a super-charged political environment in this country, where every remark or action on all sides of the political spectrum is blown up out of proportion by the media and by social media.  Let's not fall into that trap.

As Sparma has pointed out, there are not a lot of posters left on this forum, and there really isn't any way to attract new members.  When the other forum folded recently, my hope was we'd pick up a few members like Basketballer or Lee357, but they went elsewhere.  So we're down to a precious few.

I understand that we all have very strong feeling about the direction in which the country is headed.  But Presidents come and go.  On the other hand, you people are the only people who have any idea what I'm talking about when I reminisces about the Ray Scott era, or the Bad Boys, or the Teal years or the Going to Work team.  Please, let's not ruin a good thing.

[BallinD]

I can't really root for Weggie, too much me-first-ism in that guy and his interview smirk is maddening, not to mention his heroball addiction and poor man's Westbrook (apologies to the real deal) approach to the game, without the rebounds or assists, just the usage.

I believe if we could parlay some of our ish, the Weggieish players, like Weggie, Leuer, Boban, Galloway, Bradley to a pick and a young, athletic, PG, and promising young PF we can be ready to make some noise next year with a new coach.   The new coach is the linchpin of the deal.  Nothing makes sense to me until we get rid of Stupid Van Gundy.  With the right basketball mind and a good young, PG, I believe we can fight our way into the mix and hopefully strike gold!  But this is a big boy's league and SVG has already wasted/thrown away assets like Moose and KCP.  
There really is no way forward, except hitting the bottom and drafting Zeke 2.0

There is no real way forward as long as the fat man hasn't sung his swan song, so I agree with your frustration, but I still wanna root for this team to make a run to the finish of the season.  I would definitely trade Weggie, et al for a young, hungry talented point guard.  I would think this is more important than a PF IMHO.  I have been wrong before, so maybe I'm wrong again?

And then what happens Ballin?  where do you go from there because this team is already 2 seasons behind where they should be today.   They won't be any closer even if they made the playoffs.  This team is not going to transform into the starless championship team of 2004.

Why wait to tear it down?  If I was Gores SVG would be gone before January and Harris, Bradley, Jacksons, Tolliver, Boban, Ish would already be a foot out the door for picks (1st and 2nd).

[WTF]

There is no real way forward as long as the fat man hasn't sung his swan song, so I agree with your frustration, but I still wanna root for this team to make a run to the finish of the season.  I would definitely trade Weggie, et al for a young, hungry talented point guard.  I would think this is more important than a PF IMHO.  I have been wrong before, so maybe I'm wrong again?

And then what happens Ballin?  where do you go from there because this team is already 2 seasons behind where they should be today.   They won't be any closer even if they made the playoffs.  This team is not going to transform into the starless championship team of 2004.

Why wait to tear it down?  If I was Gores SVG would be gone before January and Harris, Bradley, Jacksons, Tolliver, Boban, Ish would already be a foot out the door for picks (1st and 2nd).

[WTF]

I also agree that we really need to blow this thing up, we're spinning in mud, going nowhere, and the only reason we don't is that SVG can't admit failure because it will surely cost him his job... probably will anyway, he's a total f#$kup at this point.

Glad you and Murph are starting to see the light on dismantling this team.  While I understand others hopefulness about this team because they're not really a bad group. It's more not being the right group as constructed they're built as a support group for a Superstar that doesn't exist meaning if they were grouped around a young Kobe type player then it would be okay to bank on 50 plus wins and contending.

IMO the longer we wait to hit the reset button the longer it'll take to right this thing.  I would honestly be trying to move as many of the pieces I could for draft picks and to clear cap space.   Harris, Jackson, Bradley, Boban are all potential drafts picks in return from some contending team even if the picks are deep picks in the first.   Do you really think the Cavs wouldn't want Harris to back Lebron?  or some other team on the brinks of winning but need some strong bench support wouldn't take these players.

But the real problem is that SVG needs to be fired and replace before any of this can happen.  


And that last thing you agreed with me on    It's really starting work my nerves and I wish it would stop.

[BallinD]

Oracle, this team is fully capable of running off a string of wins or a string of terrible games or a mixture of the two.  We are not really a "good team," and it appears the talent to approach a fourth seed is on the team, but the machine gets clogged on the regular.  Immaturity, rampant jump shooting, lapses in focus, lack of elite talent, plague this team. Even so, when the shots fall and they are dialed in, they can play with any team in this league.  

Is it hoping too much to think that they can put it all together?  Probably so.  I was in the blow it up camp long before this season and thought and expressed the idea of getting what we could for Dre and Weggie, Leuer, Boban, and SJ and KCP and was ridiculed for being a hater.  I am not in favor of mortgaging our future trading a first round pick for a Star rental to play out the season (Paul George) anyone?  I would also strategically add Bradley to that mix.

Yes, he is hurt again, as you predicted, but I think this is a weird blessing in disguise, giving important PT to Bullock and Kennard, which helps us in the long run.  KCP is unable to play road games for LA right now, due to his infraction (drinking) so I am just happy we can play Bullock and Galloway and Langston.  

Unlike you I have no desire to heap ridicule on a good, hard-nosed player like AB.  He is a Gimp, Ish is a Midget, Stanley is a Bust, Luke had Tyrannosaurus arms, Weggie is Weggie, and to me, some of that kind of takes the fun out of rooting for the home team to win.  I think with better schemes; eg; SVG, we could be a much better team and our players would look better.  I root for them to play up to their potential ... and see that they regularly fail to do so for many reasons we all have discussed, especially at PG, the guy who stirs the drink.  I do admit to hating on Weggie when/because he clearly reveals that he is suffering from assholicism.

Unless, we can find a way to integrate Ellensen, Kennard and SJ into our core, we are spinning our wheels until SVG rides off into the sunset.  He has only "developed" SJ, who is a dedicated bricklayer and part-time reserve wing playmaker.  I have heaped ridicule on this self-proclaimed "best player" in the draft, who cannot make a layup or dunk in traffic to save his life, let-alone reliably hit a shot in close or a wide-open three.  He defends well, but I watch him getting scored on so regularly, I find it hard to see the evidence for his "great defense, although I am of the mind that we keep him and hope he can grow into something.

Luke languishes on the bench after good games and gets the hook for doing what SJ, Reggie and Andre do quite often.  Ellensen is the big enigma who performed well at the start of the season, but then dissapeared from the rotation.  WTF?!  Moreland is certainly helpful and serviceable, but does he move the needle, for a team desparate to score?? No!  SVG???

There is no real way forward as long as the fat man hasn't sung his swan song, so I agree with your frustration, but I still wanna root for this team to make a run to the finish of the season.  I would definitely trade Weggie, et al for a young, hungry talented point guard.  I would think this is more important than a PF IMHO.  I have been wrong before, so maybe I'm wrong again?

This was a terrible game that was only interesting because it was a game of runs! The only question was who got the last run, and fortunately it was us.

I'm glad we got the win, but neither team deserved the W, yes, they played that bad. Well, bad may not be the right word, it's more like they were two teams that are only "Ok", not good teams in any way.

I give NY a slight advantage because they at least have one player that we have to throw 2 or 3 players at and worry about all game. We don't have a player like that, so they're miles ahead if they can get 1 or 2 more really good players.

I also agree that we really need to blow this thing up, we're spinning in mud, going nowhere, and the only reason we don't is that SVG can't admit failure because it will surely cost him his job... probably will anyway, he's a total f#$kup at this point.

Avery Bradley is another SVG bad luck story, as he becomes the top GIMP coach in the league. Trump loves the poorly educated and SVG loves poorly physical. Is there a gimp in the league that he can't find? Man, Danny Ainge must have smelled that sucker coming for miles!

Even worse, so many on this board just ignored the facts in front of them! Even now, no one posts even that he isn't in the lineup or why. The silence is deafening....

[Oracle]

This was a terrible game that was only interesting because it was a game of runs! The only question was who got the last run, and fortunately it was us.

I'm glad we got the win, but neither team deserved the W, yes, they played that bad. Well, bad may not be the right word, it's more like they were two teams that are only "Ok", not good teams in any way.

I give NY a slight advantage because they at least have one player that we have to throw 2 or 3 players at and worry about all game. We don't have a player like that, so they're miles ahead if they can get 1 or 2 more really good players.

I also agree that we really need to blow this thing up, we're spinning in mud, going nowhere, and the only reason we don't is that SVG can't admit failure because it will surely cost him his job... probably will anyway, he's a total f#$kup at this point.

I will say that Reggie showed some maturity after he got that tech, I thought he was going to go hero ball trying to get revenge, but he attacked and passed the ball. Another time, he would have tried to force the issue... I'm glad he didn't.

Don is correct, there were some bad calls, especially on Drummond, but Drummond had to mostly leave Kanter alone. Kanter got real frisky after Drummond got his 3rd foul, and the way they were calling things, even blocking out might get you called for something cheap.

Avery Bradley is another SVG bad luck story, as he becomes the top GIMP coach in the league. Trump loves the poorly educated and SVG loves poorly physical. Is there a gimp in the league that he can't find? Man, Danny Ainge must have smelled that sucker coming for miles!

Even worse, so many on this board just ignored the facts in front of them! Even now, no one posts even that he isn't in the lineup or why. The silence is deafening....

Finally, I also agree with Wise about Don, who either doesn't know what he is, or won't admit it, but we know... that's all I'll say.

[cool breeze]

Isn't the attraction of the NBA supposed to be the place where basketball fans can see the best basketball actually being played? That is for sure not the case. College and high school teams play multiple defenses even using up to 4 full court press variations. On offense, high school and college players need to know how to attack the man to man and several zone defenses. Players have to stay alert. Things like boxing out or setting solid screens are common place. Then parents take their kids to a Piston game and wonder why did I take them? Their kids might pick up bad habits. It is very clear that the NBA is not interested in creating an atmosphere where the best basketball is played. The NBA front office only wants to create a sense of entertainment where the last 3 minutes can possibly become exciting. That night was no exception.

ANDRE DRUMMOND allows Eric Kanter to get 7 offensive rebounds and put backs simply because he didn't bother to box him out. If you do that one time in high school the coach is likely to pull you out of the game. Meanwhile some Piston fans are concentrating on Moreland and insisting that he is not NBA caliber. At lease Moreland doesn't ignore every fundamental all big men must learn and execute well like AD gets away with because he is the franchise player. AD screwed up 3 or 4 dunk attempts. On one of those attempts, he missed and NY went on transition while AD didn't even attempt to get back on defense. He put his head down and never made it past half court while the NY driver missed his layup and of course Canter was there to get another offensive rebound that AD should have had. So that makes 8 shots or 16 points AD gave up for his lack of "engagement" as SVG likes to put it. No it is plain stupidity an extreme mental and physical laziness. AD will never be on a championship team. There is no way in hell he would be able to concentrate and play the right way in the playoffs where every flaw in a players game is examined and exploited by superior players. I would love to be able to see AD play against Bill Walton when Bill was in his prime. Walton could have gotten 30 offensive rebounds and there is no way that AD could ever run from baseline to baseline for even one quarter attempting to keep up with Walton. And that is just one NBA player. Bill Russell, Wilt, Shaq and of course the usually ineffective Canter can always take advantage of players like AD. I really don't know many centers at all who play as stupidly as Andre Drummond. He is very athletic and could be one of the best players or all time. But could be or should be means nothing. AD is gradually sliding back into the same funk he came down with last season. It is almost Christmas and that was the time of the AD meltdown last season that lasted until the season was over. This year it has been fun to watch the motion offense. However, it seems that without Bradley we seldom see it at all. AD had been a big part of the motion offense hitting cutters and seeing the floor very well. Then about 4 games ago, AD started to gamble a lot with his passes. He is now attempting extremely low percentage passes without hesitation. Players are supposed to get smarter and execute better not worse. This is not a good sign. It appears that AD just doesn't really care enough like other star Piston players we have watched in the past. And AD is not alone.

While some fans beat up on the young fringe players we currently have, I don't have such high expectations on them. They need time to get the NBA game down. It might take 4 years if you come into the league as a teenager. What I am upset with is how the highest paid athletes are playing at any given moment. They need to be consistent. It is OK to judge them. If they make the bulk of the money than they need to take the heat when they are not performing up to speed.

REGGIE JACKSON clearly the the guy who scored points in the end of this game. But what if we had an actual high basketball IQ two way point guard playing for the Pistons? Would it have been necessary for the point guard to so down the court and take the game all by himself to the opponent for more than one possession? What if we had a point guard who could organize the offense and dribble around so much and then make incredibly poor passes earlier in the game? The Pistons were not playing any type of organized offense past the first half of the first quarter. This team started out playing offense the way we should suspect an NBA team to execute. There was cutting, screening, passing and very little dribbling by Reggie or Reggie dominating the basketball from the time he receives the inbound pass until the shot clock is about to expire. There is no other explanation as to why this team suddenly after playing a few minutes well takes a nose dive relating to showing that there is anything going on between the eyes of the point guard. Reggie Jackson as a horrible leader of this team but many will claim he was the hero of the game. But does anyone believe that the highest paid players actually played even half the the game the right way?

TOBIAS HARRIS attempted some shots that he knew had no chance of going in the basket. They were off balance just throw it up type attempts against heavy pressure. Why is he doing that? I think Tobias is frustrated because our point guards have no idea as to how to run a team. We have no floor general. Jackson and Smith are at times scatterbrain type athletes who play with no plan and have no interest in running the offense that this team practices. Why bother to practice? I say there is no hope that anything is going to change until Reggie Jackson is traded if that is even possible. And I am sure that many of you think that I am crazy because it was Reggie who came down all on his own and beat the Knicks. This is a mistake prone low basketball IQ basketball team. There is no other way to put it. Those players some fans concentrate on as failing have no chance of success unless they are able to somehow get traded. So please SVG trade all of our young frustrated players and include Bradley so they get a change to actually have fun playing basketball. It is not fun to play with players who do not like playing the right way. If players are not excited to play because it is impossible to have fun playing with the dysfunctional key highest paid players, then take them out of their misery and give them all away. If the goal of the GM is to hold on to dysfunctional players who will never play with any brains, then bring in more brain dead players like them so at least the fans can get a good laugh. Reggie Jackson looks tired and in distress most of the time on the floor. Maybe sit him on the bench until there is only 3 minutes left in the game if no trade is possible.

What happened to Galloway? Is he sick?

[WTF]

Depending on what your expectation are you most certainly can argue a victory.   Yeah I'm always on the next level stuff perhaps I'll never be satisfied this season    Still think a retooling is in order.


Unfortunately I keep looking for next level stuff some it's hard to make assessments on individual games because I package up the whole thing so I'm always like what did they do the last 10 games, are they mentally ready for the next 10 games and so on.  I'm still waiting to see the leap to next level and only slightly think I might be off on my 39 win prediction.  

When I look at where we are in the conference there's really nothing distinguishes the Pistons from most teams 4 to 10 beyond 1 to 3 (Celtics, Cavs, and Raptors)

When I watched the game yes we won but we could have easily lost that game in fact I thought we would have.  The Pistons have not distance themselves from teams like many think.   Truthfully they have done nothing that says to me they won't fall into the 10th spot by seasons who's to say the Knicks, Pacers, Heat, Wizards, Bucks, and Sixer's are any worse or better than we are.   There's nothing separating us from them but a games or two.

The same positive notions of improve many of you are hoping for so are fans of these other teams.  My guess that eventually both the Bucks and Wizard will right themselves barring injuries likely pushing us fight for a 6-8 seed.  So how much better are we than the Pacers, which many weren't sure how far they would fall off before the season started?   I don't think the Knicks will fade, the Sixers might and maybe the Heat as well but I think any of those three would be more likely to make an attempt to get better before SVG would.  Meaning if they smell an 8th seed possibility they'll make a trade before deadline. 

It's a win but I wasn't impressed

[BallinD]

Great win for our scrappy team come down to earth and fighting for their lives.  SVG pulling out all the stops he can imagine, and surprisingly some of them working, but especially interesting to see the end game lineup come through for him with Bullock coming up big on the defensive end and scoring too.  SJ played hard on Beasley, Kanter thinks he is better than Dre, and tries to prove it, and so it went.

Tobias retained a bit of his confidence, and Weggie came through in the end, not looking like the goat who wants to be a hero, so to have those two play well (Weggie decently, but did come 2 assists short of a doubledouble) helps us get a barely attained win.

I wouldn't have minded seeing some Boban in there vs Kanter.  And little Galloway and Kennard, and yet I can't argue vs a victory.

[Sparma]

Good win, but dang that was close. Pistons score the last seven. Reggie Bullock with two huge plays down the stretch, diving for the ball on the ground, and getting a finishing block. That O though.... I thought Kanter was killing AD, especially on the offensive boards, but AD's comparative numbers look ok. Good job by Tolliver on Porzingis until late in the 3rd, when he heated up (and then cooled down at the end). I just don't like the look of the O. Even though I don't trust Tobias's shot (maybe I should with his good % this year?), the O looks most dangerous when he drives to the basket, pulling the D to him, but regularly looking for another attacker. Not sure how sustainable that is. When isos spearheaded by Tobias, Reggie, and Ish are your best plays, I think you're asking for trouble, especially against the really strong teams. I'd like to have seen Boban go against Kanter of course, but Moreland did well tonight, scoring a nice inside bucket from Ish (?), and easily outdoing AD in +/-. The team can thank their lucky stars they pulled this one out. Could have gone either way.

[WTF]

Yes all three should be voted HOF'ers (Billups, Hamilton and Hill)  would be especially appropriate if Hill does it as a Pistons.   Rip and CB on the merit they went to back to back NBA finals only came away with one but damn if it shouldn't have been 2.  Also they were built to be a dynasty but we know what GM screwed that.   

If potential was ever a word worthy of being used I would say in the case of Hill getting in he could have potentially been on a level of Kobe, MJ, Shaq, Duncan had injury not reared its ugly head.

[Murph]

Hopefully tonight's home game will be a scheduling win. The Knicks won a hard fought game against the Celtics last night and should be tired. And I hope Tolliver is as effective containing Porzingis as he was last game.

[Sparma]

Don asks: "Sparma was it really Moreland's fault?"

I thought it was clear from my post that I was (primarily) going after SVG's decision.  In agreement with Oracle, I don't think he's good at situational substituting. Coaching substitutions are analogous to a chef's adding ingredients: if the dish is too sweet, you add vinegar or salt, not vanilla.  Doesn't mean vanilla's bad, just that it's a poor choice in that setting.

As mentioned, Moreland posted a -22, in comparison to Boban's +1, so that hardly speaks well of Moreland's impact on the game. I didn't think Moreland played unusually poorly, so in that sense I'm not faulting him.  In a weird way that's the problem though: the team can play horribly even when Moreland's ok by his own standards. There's a saying that I dislike that I'll nevertheless apply to Moreland: it is what it is.  The fault lies with the coach for not seeing what's what.

I don't want to come across as anti-Moreland.  I respect his game, and admire him as someone making the most of his abilities.  He's great at drawing at drawing fouls, good at blocks, and rugged on D.  All that earns him a spot on the roster and some minutes in the game.

That said, I do think Boban's the better player, and that his minutes should go up and Moreland's down. For what it's worth, the stats indicate that Boban's the more productive player.  In PER Boban sits at 19.61, #21 in the NBA among centers, while Eric comes in at 11.48, #69 among 98 PFs (sic!).  Among Pistons, Boban's #2 behind AD in PER, with Moreland towards the bottom (incidentally, SJ's #last at 8.1, with only Jon Leuer in his territory at 8.9).  If memory serves, that's a relatively low PER for Boban, who came in #2 in the league from SA.

So much for the numbers.  Let's turn to more qualitative analysis concerning the game yesterday.  As mentioned, Kelser (ordinarily positive!) noted that AD's departure led to less ball movement and increased jump shooting.  Coincidence?  I think not.  Moreland's weak at ball movement and doesn't supply an inside target allowing the O to diversify; Boban's generally a good passer (granted, he can be a black hole at times) and he supplies the kind of inside presence that forces the D to contract, leading to more space for better shots by others.  Moreland's better on D, but I don't see him as a serious difference maker there, but rather as a sub who can make a nice contribution. No surprise that team play took a turn for the better with Boban in, even though I thought he played below his average yesterday.

When Stan substituted Moreland in down by 9 rather than Boban, I felt he was making the wrong decision; the fact that we were down by 23 within minutes and that the game was essentially over, confirmed my perception.

Another compliment for Moreland: I think he could contribute valuable minutes even on a top NBA team, as 3rd center. SVG's expecting to much from him though, e.g., when he's expected to be a catalyst for a comeback when down 9 and the O clearly needs a boost. That's asking too much of him, bringing the Peter Principle into play. And that is on Stan, not Eric.

[Murph]

Don, great coaches come with many different personalities and approaches.  My favorite coach was my high school baseball coach, Roger Dressler.  Coach Dressler played baseball and basketball at Ohio State, served in the army, and was a high school math teacher, when he wasn't coaching.  His claim to fame was that he played both sports at OSU with Frank Howard, one of my favorite Tigers of all time.

Coach Dressler was a man of few words.  I played for him for 3 years, and in that time, I don't ever once remember him even yelling at us, let alone physically assaulting us.  He would get frustrated with us for sure when we made mental mistakes, but he would only get quieter and brood.  But he was a great instructor and a no nonsense kind of guy, who command our respect and focus at all times.  And the team responded and played well for him.  My senior year the team lost in the state regional finals 2-1, on a 2 run HR by future major leaguer Brad Komminsk.

He instilled in me a love of baseball and sports that I carry to this day, and have passed on to my kids as well.  I still keep in touch with several of my high school teammates, and we frequently and fondly reminisce about Coach Dressler.

My point is, coaches don't have to yell at or intimidate kids to motivate them.  IMO, the best youth coaches are the ones who lead by example.

[WTF]

That is what goes on in some of the Tucson schools now and I can only imagine what is happening in the City of Detroit.

You are a sick puppy 

You are the sick puppy by using the argument of intimiadation ( racism ) to sweep everything under the rug WTF. Exactly what is the graduation rate of students attending Detroit inner city school? What is it like for students who actually do want to get a good education? Do the school board members still have drivers who transport them in stretch vehicles to the most expensive steak house downtown? No for sure the City government and the board of education has never experienced any corruption. I only care about the young kids who have to try to survive and succeed. Why do you fear the truth? By acknowledging the difficult truth about what has happened in the past and perhaps the present, positive change can take place. If people take the political denial attitude no change takes place and the kids continue to suffer. It seems you like using the race card a lot to deflect attention away from the truth. If I were a parent living in any inter city setting today, somehow I would come up with the money to get my kids in a private school. Because of people like you our inter city schools will never change for the better and every issue will be solved by identifying the real evil in the world - ( racism ) or other words that political creatures attempt to connect emotion and mass hysteria to to get out the vote. We are now in the modern area and at least some people have wised up to this nonsense. Those who use the (racism work ) have no interest in improving anything. Keep the status quo and get out the vote. A few who are high up in the party politics will benefit at who's expense? Did the Pistons lose this last game because of ( racism ) or did they lose because of (climate change)? There is no denying that racism will ever go away. Some Blacks hate Whites and especially Jews. Some Whites hate Blacks. Maybe some Asians hate both Blacks and Whites. SO WHAT? There has already been a war fought over that with many Whites having died to free slaves who were from the State of Michigan. And there is no denying that the climate is changing. But for anyone who does not get grant money and is a professor living the good life traveling the world on tax payer money taking about the changing climate, aren't you at least interested in the fact that other countries want more money from us tax payers to help solve the problem of these horrible carbons. And by spending more billions of dollars at our expense the Paris objective is to reduce carbon emissions by .02% after 90 years of spending. Is the Al Gore formula of success correct? Please check out his history as a science expert. But the emotional attachment to the words (climate change) has been achieved. We have a millions of believers and few critical thinkers. Of course most of those believers were never interested in science when they attended school. It is much like the past when a large number of smokers were wearing the badge ( I am an environmentalist ). They walked along looking for violators while having a cigarette dangling from their mouths. Why not worry about our water supply and spend some money on cleaning that up. The public needs to be aware of the fact that water treatment facilities are not yet able to remove drug related chemicals from our water supply. Remember what happened in Pontiac and think about the possibility of even bottled water being contaminated at some time in our future. There is a lot to worry about but I guess everything can be solved by removing any critical thinking by just identifying the guilty individuals by pointing a finger and calling those offenders ( Witches ) or ( racists ). Unless some of us stand up and confront the argument of intimadation tactics (racism) then no progress can ever be made. The money keeps flowing to the wrong people. The kids suffer like always. Nobody cares as long as the problem is identified as (racism).  

Sorry Donald but you seem to have some strong sick opinions about a place you don't live and all of your underlined racist comments about a city does get under my skin just enough for me to respond the way I do.   

While I wouldn't doubt your opinion on what's going on in Tucson considering I've have seen more homeless, drug addicts, criminals, child abusers and other forms of not so pleasant here in AZ than I have seen my entire life living in Detroit and the State of Michigan.  But here's the thing I'm not taking shots at AZ every chance I get.

This a sports forum for certain Donald but every time you take a racist underline shot at Detroit I'm calling you out on it period. Enough is enough already  students in Detroit aren't beating up teachers,  the city isn't some huge slum of uneducated people,  there are not wild gun fights in the streets nightly as you think and like to portray being that you are a non resident.   

Be critical of the state you're living in and criticize the short comings in Arizona.  Talk about the back log of 2000 Child abuse cases,  I swear there are more homeless people here than I've seen any where.  Believe me AZ is a beautiful state but whatever negative thoughts I might have about it as an adult I choose not to make childish comments about it.  

Clearly you're misinformed Donald yet you love passing judgement from a distance.  So as long as you keep making remarks I'll keep calling them as I see them.

[cool breeze]

Don wrote: "Then he proceeded to grab me by the shoulder pads and slam me against the window of every seat on the bus on that one side."

You're referring to your coach there, Don, right (not your Dad)?  If you'd said something like: it's often problematic to judge the past by today's standards, I'd be sympathetic.  But at least: by today's standards, that's physical abuse.  I've done a lot of youth soccer coaching at the Y.  A coach doing that stuff you describe today would be let go at once, Don.  My guess is that the question just would be if legal action would be taken.  If it were, the coach would be in deep trouble.

There doesn't seem to be enough agreement concerning definitions and premises between you and me, Don, to allow for a fruitful discussion of the issue.  Symptomatic of some of the deep divides in our country?

Maybe when our Pistons start to stink in games more of us could provide personal stories about our lives relating to sports or life just to pass the time. But yes Sparma the coach did slam me against every window on the opposite side of the drivers seat. What happened next was that I got off the bus and laughed with my buddies about that incident and said boy did I screw up calling that quick count. The coach didn't hurt me and he wasn't really trying to hurt me and I knew that too. I was being used as a prop to motivate our team. Even though I was initially humiliated a bit that was it and any athlete who plays sports will feel humiliated at times for many different reasons. I m sure all of our Piston players have felt it at one time or another as professional athletes. Sports can toughen us up so we are prepared to face the real world. That is one of many things my old coach gave me. My helmet and shoulder pads protected me fully. And I played better in the 2nd half as did my teammates and we came back to win that game. The coach came up to me on the field and said he was really proud of the way I had played and led the team. I had some bleeding coming from my cheeks from opposing players who were trying to scratch my eyes out. The coach asked me if I was all right and I told him about what some of the opponent players were talking about relating to taking my eyes. He responded "those bastards we will make them suffer big time when we play them in basketball". And we did and blew them out in our two matchups. We all hated that school that was full of punks. I loved this coach and how he taught in the classroom too. I know that he would have thrown himself in front of a bus to save my life if it ever came to that. We all knew that he had no fear and had our backs. He was a highly decorated war hero before becoming a teacher. He helped hundreds of kids like me and went way beyond what most teachers would ever do for their students. Just to be around him made me feel lucky. As a small kid I attended the basketball games and watched him come to the bench before a game in a wheel chair after having knee surgery a few days before. I couldn't wait to be old enough to play varsity sports and have him as my coach. And relating to my Father who was also a WW2 combat hero who survived, he asked my older brother and myself what we thought our our coach. We both provided the truth that the coach was tough as hell but was fantastic and we felt really lucky that he was our coach. A few spoiled brat kids with more personality defects than my brother and I had at the time had powerful parents in the community that were pissed off their their kids did not have big roles on either the football or basketball teams we played on. So my Father always came out to those lynching meetings designed to fire our coach. I do know that 90% of my teammates would have turned in our uniforms in both football and basketball if he had been fired. Then I would have had to join the military instead of getting the athletic and academic scholarships my coach helped my brother and myself get.

When I coached basketball I was not the type who threw players around or touched them physically. But most of my success as a coach was directly due to the same coach who threw me against the bus windows. It is great to hear that you helped kids coaching soccer. Not enough pads for protection against the wrath of coaches in that sport. The interesting point in my story is how we all define abuse. I have witnessed and had my ass beat up a few times by older and bigger punk kids growing up. I just couldn't learn my lesson to keep a low profile when some asshole was picking on an innocent boy or girl. What I loved about playing organized sports is knowing that you have an adult ref watching the bad apples. the revenge comes in when those punks can't bring out their knives when you legally block or tackle them hard. They cannot go off on you or they get kicked out of the game. Some of the nasty football players that I played against would try to hit me in the testicles when I went up for a shot or drove inside in basketball after we turned in our football pads. You had to be ready for that type of dirty play in basketball regardless of what had happened on the football field earlier. That would motivate me in a positive way and I could always embarrass the hell out of them just by playing the right way and never losing my cool. One time a ref did throw out an opposing player for attempting to hit me with a low blow after the 3rd attempt at trying to destroy my manhood. All of us have experienced these things as athletes. I think when most of us think about abuse we usually think about some of the punks who were around our own age that we feared big time. I never feared any adult teacher or coach in my life. And both of my parents were wonderful human beings. I feel for those who have not experienced having rational educated and kind people as parents who lived their lives the right way which means they never tried to screw over anyone for their own gain. At no time in my life did I know how my parents stood relating to politics. They might have talked privately but never wanted their kids to be influenced on their own beliefs relating to that subject. We tried hard to act the same way with our own family. There is nothing worse than a parent to rants about politics around their own kids. My Father used to say that being the President must be a humbling experience and thought who ever the President was as a person before would try to do the best job they possibly could do once elected. Maybe it should be considered abuse when teachers and parents go off on a rant calling elected officials horrible names. Kids are supposed to be learning how to think rationally and objectively while having as much fun as possible for the short time that they are kids. They don't need any adult's opinion on how the coach is performing or how the President is performing. I am thankful and feel lucky that I didn't have to hear any of that nonsense during that time period of my life.

[cool breeze]

You've heard this from me before, so first some numbers: Drummond: +10, Moreland -22, Boban, +1.

I started watching in the second half.  AD gets his 4th foul early, exiting the game with the Pistons down 9.  In comes Moreland.  Wait, in comes Moreland??!  You're down 9.  You need to score.  Why not bring in the back up center who can score?  In comes Moreland, Dallas scores 8 in a row to go up 17, and within minutes they're down 23.  Boban comes in, doesn't play great, but the margin does decrease to 17.  Incidentally, Kelser later commented that once Drummond left [i.e. when Moreland came in] the ball movement slowed down and the team was reduced to jump shooting.  

Stan, it's not that hard.  You need to score, bring in the big guy who scores.  (It's on me?!)

Good game for Stanley J.  Credit where ....

Sparma was it really Moreland's fault? Dallas was ripping the Pistons in transition as well as their half court offense. Much of the problems in my opinion was the direct result of faulty point guard play. The pistons were completely disorganized on both ends of the floor with or without Andre Drummond who picked up a stupid 4th foul early in the 2nd half. There is no doubt that this team really needs AD on the floor for as long as possible when he is engaged. But for the life of me I could not understand why SVG did not bench both of our point guards early in the game and play Galloway who did show in the past that he can get the half court offense in sync by simply running the motion offense. Reggie started the game by playing last years' offense where 4 players stand around with AD deep in the paint while Reggie finds an open shot or passes the ball to Harris. At first Reggie was able to score but by doing that he created a nightmare. Harris attempted shots from way beyond the 3 point line and it seemed that all of his shots were rushed. Soon everyone who touched the ball felt like that might be the last time they would touch it so they started jacking up shots while failing to force Dallas to expend any energy on defense. And of course this was not all Reggie's fault. Ish Smith was simply horrible as well. He scored in the 2nd half but it was all at his own teammates expense because he didn't even attempt to get anyone else involved on offense. The dribbling dribbling dribbling almost made me ill. Instead of player and ball movement Smith and Jackson reverted to going on their own to create something on offense. Their teammates had no idea what they should be doing because once again the point guards were ignoring them. Why set a screen if the point guard is not going to be interested in a cutter on the opposite side of the court from where the point guard is dribbling? SVG allowed this to go on all game long. I think Galloway is at least not a dribbling obsessed player. He is a no nonsense type player and tries to run the offense this team does practice. Because there were so many quick off balance shots flying around by the Pistons it was almost impossible to set up their half court defense.

Dallas has a horrible team. All opposing teams have had to do against Dallas is run their half court offense and limit transition baskets. If the Pistons had run their motion offense and made that 3rd pass to the weak side, we might have seen a different result. Reggie's melt down in the previous game where he decided in the 4th quarter that he wanted to play the offense from last season which featured lots of point guard dribbling and point guard movement instead of team movement and ball movement almost cost the Pistons that game. Yet the coach allowed both point guards in this game to ignore the offense that has changed everything in a positive way. We need different point guards. But Jackson and Smith dominated the basketball and I thought Smith was more guilty in the 2nd half than Jackson. It is simply impossible for any basketball player at any level to be successful if they are forced to play with point guards using the style both Jackson and Smith used against Dallas and the last quarter of the previous game. And remember that blow out loss this team had before they went on a short winning streak? The point guards had everything to do with that loss as well. I can only ask one question. How can the coach allow his point guards to screw up the works and get away with it time after time? The point guards go for a few games playing the right way and then for no reason go off into la la land playing selfish street basketball where at least 3 players have no input in the offense. To touch the ball you need to get a steal and go coast to coast. And both point guards also have one thing in common. They are horrible defenders. Ish Smith was horrible on the defensive end last night. He was beaten in every way you can get beat. Smith had been playing better defense up until this game and the 4th quarter of the game before that. SVG needs to get his team under control and it starts with the wacky point guards he has selected. And I have liked the way both of them have played in many games this season when they play smart and under control. Has Bradley been out of the lineup too long now? Reggie's influence is pure poison at times and perhaps his practice habits lately have rubbed off on the team. So to me even mentioning Moreland and connecting him to this loss is way off Sparma. This one is on the point guards as usual. When will we get a real point guard? How about Bradley when he gets healthy? How about Bradley and Galloway and trade both Reggie and Ish? I know that I am in the minority on that idea but would love to see how that combination might play out considering we do have some good players on this roster who have to play with extremely dysfunctional dribble happy point guards now.

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