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Post  Oracle on Mon Jun 05, 2017 3:04 pm

@Phillip - I really like Mitchell, 6'3 with a freaking 6'10 wingspan??? This dude is the perimeter defender we need! Imagine him, KCP and Stanley Johnson defending, points for the opposing team will become scarce. If Stanley can boost his scoring, we're looking at near Bad Boys level defense.

@DX - I hear you on Reggie, but, IMO, I think the main team deserves a chance to right the ship. That doesn't mean that we turn down any move for any of them, but if nothing presents itself, I want to see how things progress and make corrections at the Feb deadline. I'm not wedded to this position, but that's how I feel right now, a good argument could move me I'm keeping an open mind.

@Ballin - I just don't get the Justin Jackson love, he reminds me of Stanley, a guy that you can't figure out his position in the NBA. Too weak to be a SF, to slow to be a SG spells a tweener that takes an ass whooping nightly, IMO. But I could be wrong, just ask Phillip who was all over Booker and I thought Stanley was the stuff!

@Don - "What is it that we don't get Oracle. I am concerned about the team offering Pope a new contract for $20 to $25 million dollars for 4 or 5 years. If that deal is done and Pope doesn't improve next season we will be watching him do the same thing for 5 more years". 

Don, nobody can help you with your fears, you have a lot of them relating to this team. You demand that players be loyal and you're the first to run for the exits when you're supposed to be the one to show some. Either accept that this is all totally business or do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

As for your fear that KCP won't improve. This like most of what you've been ranting about lately had no basis in anything rational. You can say that about a lot of players, but KCP has improved every year! Irrational fear is a mother  lol. Amazingly you have no fear believing that guys who haven't even proven they can be NBA players and bench warmers are the next great thing without a shred of evidence... Wow!

BTW, I know you hate to read articles that don't support your thinking, but there was one recently that is of interest: Why the Detroit Pistons should pay Kentavious Caldwell-Pope, where they compare two players, read the article to see who the players are.

http://pistonpowered.com/2017/06/04/detroit-pistons-pay-kentavious-caldwell-pope/ wrote:I want to end this article with a comparison, to help demonstrate the improvements KCP has made, and to look ahead at what we can hope and expect from him next season.

Player A:

Year 1 per game averages: 31.2 minutes, 13.9 points, 41 percent field goal, 38.6 percent three-point, 3.8 rebounds, 2.4 assists, 1.6 turnovers, 0.9 steals

Year 4 per game averages: 31.1 minutes, 17.4 points, 44.9 percent field goal, 38.7 percent three-point, 3.4 rebounds, 2.9 assists, 2 turnovers, 1 steals

Player B:

Year 1 per game averages: 19.8 minutes, 5.9 points, 39.6 percent field goal, 31.9 percent three-point, 2 rebounds, 0.7 assists, 0.4 turnovers, 0.9 steals

Year 4 per game averages: 33.3 minutes, 13.8 points, 39.9 percent field goal, 35 percent three-point, 3.3 rebounds, 2.5 assists, 1.1 turnovers, 1.2 steals
I'm sure none of this will change you, I just hope you can stop being this guy(just a joke)  lol lol lol



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Re: FORUM

Post  cool breeze on Mon Jun 05, 2017 11:31 am

deusXango wrote:Of all the starting PG's in the playoffs this year, from the injured to the MVP's, who can we say that Reggie Jackson is in the same class with?

How is it that playoff teams, with consistent middling draft picks, find room for their rookies to make considerable contributions and our rookies couldn't get past the D-League?

Sh!t is constantly talked about Drummonds lack of leadership, but what type of leadership has SVG and Reggie Jackson provided? Both are older and, one would assume, wiser!

Drummond has been marked as being lazy, but to talk about lazy, you've got to look at SVG...WTF is he doing talking about trading the 12th pick for a veteran (who has no future with the team and chances are, ain't worth sacrificing the pick for) if he's not too lazy to do his due diligence to make that pick count?

Beyond having the larger contract, can someone give a sensible explanation as to why Marcus Morris is the starting SF (at one time the majority of fans expected Morris to be relegated to the bench, in favor or of Jon Leuer starting at PF, when SVG started talking about a shakeup) instead of Tobias Harris?

Am I the only fan that remembers that during the first 21 games, when Ish was getting acclimated to the team, we never consistently got blown out in the first quarter, even when we lost?

Why is the slow developing pick & roll our staple play (every team employs this basic play, just not as ineffective) and the local media ignores the importance of ball movement and up-tempo play for a team that's constructed to thrive on that style of play?

Right here, right now, why is Reggie Jackson and Jon Leuer, valued more than Andre Drummond and KCP? A weak ass, out of gas PF and ball hogging, stumbling PG are necessary ingredients for our "win now" or future, when the Cavs and Warriors abdicate their thrones?

dX one big reason why Detroit's money play, the pick and roll, was not effective other than Reggie Jackson's ineffective play is the simple fact that opposing teams decided to shut down the potential for that point guard dribble drive and a center dunk. If that is all you got then why wouldn't opposing teams take that away. To think that everything was amiss just because of Reggie's health issues and that pick and roll play will work next season is pure folly. A team has to have more offensive weapons and even then that elementary play between Jackson and Drummond might work when they are playing at top form perhaps two times a game. And it will never happen in crunch time. To base the entire team structure on the Jackson-Drummond pick and roll play while the other 3 players stand at spots far away from the basket with no movement by those other players will get you where this team is today. BAD!

When some of us talk about basketball IQ and how important it is to know how to play fundamentally sound basketball all we want is a small taste of what we see from both teams that are playing in the finals. For example, last season I witnessed at least 65 times either Stanley Johnson or KCP being overplayed in their designated spot beyond the baseline 3 point line. When that happens point guard is supposed to be aware of where everyone is located on the court in the half court offense and he has to see how the defense is over playing Pope or Johnson. The other 3 players on the floor have to also know what the most plausible reaction should be and then clear out of the paint to allow Pope or Johnson to execute a back cut and receive a perfect pass from the point guard which should result in an easy layup. So did I ever see that play executed properly last year? Maybe two times a best did the guard react properly to being over played and make the fake and then get the baseline lane to the basket or if they did recognize the situation and got themselves wide open both of our point guards would be oblivious and keep right on dribbling around to get their own shot or pass the ball to the power forward who would then be forced to take a long low percentage contested shot at the end of the shot clock. That was just one play that both Cleveland and Golden State can do while sleep walking. You have to know how to react to situations and take advantage of whatever the defense gives you. If your basketball IQ and fundamentals are AWOL you will look like the boring Pistons. Last night Durant was being overplayed by James and made the perfect fake automatically without having to think and slipped down the baseline for an easy score that broke the game wide open.

Isiah Thomas at times will talk about the key to the NBA game for player success is to have the ability to instantly recognize situations and make the proper read on either offense of defense. He does this on NBA TV and will get on the court and show examples of the different situations and how the ball handler needs to think quickly and then do the right thing. Labron James has become one of the best play makers that I have ever seen. Zeke calls him a genus on the hardwood and I agree for that reason Labron James is the best player in NBA history. He not only sees everything but in the off season makes sure everyone one of his teammates are working hard to improve and James tells the players what they need to do for the team to succeed. Meanwhile, we have a team leader who says all his teammates need to do is rest. Would Andre Drummond be a different player if the Pistons had just one All Star leader type older vet? Drummond doesn't respond to any coach well. But a highly respected All Star player like Labron James would tell Andre the facts of live real quick and maybe that is what our big center needs. He needs a bully leader who will embarrass Andre to the point where he will be forced to put in the work he needs. I think this is what Drummond fears. If a highly respected NBA players called him out repeatedly hurting the team with his lack of interest and work ethic, life could be hell for him. That is why Andre Drummond decided to appoint himself as the team leader. Somehow Stan Van Gundy let it happen. Of course we have no All Star high basketball IQ player either. So don't expect anything new if this team comes back well rested next fall. If big moves are not made Stan Van Gundy will be fired at the end of next season or before.

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Just some questions and this ain't all of 'em!

Post  deusXango on Mon Jun 05, 2017 1:13 am

Of all the starting PG's in the playoffs this year, from the injured to the MVP's, who can we say that Reggie Jackson is in the same class with?

How is it that playoff teams, with consistent middling draft picks, find room for their rookies to make considerable contributions and our rookies couldn't get past the D-League?

Sh!t is constantly talked about Drummonds lack of leadership, but what type of leadership has SVG and Reggie Jackson provided? Both are older and, one would assume, wiser!

Drummond has been marked as being lazy, but to talk about lazy, you've got to look at SVG...WTF is he doing talking about trading the 12th pick for a veteran (who has no future with the team and chances are, ain't worth sacrificing the pick for) if he's not too lazy to do his due diligence to make that pick count?

Beyond having the larger contract, can someone give a sensible explanation as to why Marcus Morris is the starting SF (at one time the majority of fans expected Morris to be relegated to the bench, in favor or of Jon Leuer starting at PF, when SVG started talking about a shakeup) instead of Tobias Harris?

Am I the only fan that remembers that during the first 21 games, when Ish was getting acclimated to the team, we never consistently got blown out in the first quarter, even when we lost?

Why is the slow developing pick & roll our staple play (every team employs this basic play, just not as ineffective) and the local media ignores the importance of ball movement and up-tempo play for a team that's constructed to thrive on that style of play?

Right here, right now, why is Reggie Jackson and Jon Leuer, valued more than Andre Drummond and KCP? A weak ass, out of gas PF and ball hogging, stumbling PG are necessary ingredients for our "win now" or future, when the Cavs and Warriors abdicate their thrones?
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Re: FORUM

Post  cool breeze on Sun Jun 04, 2017 6:25 pm

deusXango wrote:If the trade of Drummond for Porzingis is consummated, will he play with a frontline of Harris and Ellenson? The bigger question is, how big is Porzingis contract compared to Drummond's max. deal and there's talk about us throwing in #12? That seems kind of backwards; why isn't N.Y. throwing us their 1st rounder? Hating Drummond, for whatever reason, is one thing, but being foolish when it comes to trading him is another.

Looking at New York's salary structure for 2017-18 Porzngis is only signed through this next season for $4.5 million and change. Sign and trade maybe? Would he want to play in Detroit? Lots of unknowns.

If not NY then what about the Celtics? I have thought all along that this is where Drummond would end up. What players would Stan take that would include the number on overall pick? I would love Avery Johnson and that would end the discussion regarding Pope. Johnson is a player on the rise and a solid two way player who did very well in the playoffs. . Too bad Brad Stevens could not be part of a Drummond deal with Boston. It would be interesting to see how Drummond would adapt to playing for a coach who makes players accountable and makes them conform to the designated role each player is given to make the team better. But is would be difficult to believe that Danny Ainge would take a chance on Drummond.

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Draft prospects I think got real NBA talent

Post  Phil1980boy on Sun Jun 04, 2017 2:28 am

First thing first. The Pistons need play makers. Guys who can make other people better and guys who. Can block shots and defend at A high level.
Also, Stan is burning me up with this trade the pick s.h.i.t. Everybody wants that already established vet. The hard job is drafting and developing a kid with true talent.

These are the guys that look solid so far. Jayson Tatum: Sky high IQ. Good size. Pure shooter. High character. Jonathan Isaac: great size. Play maker on defense. Hard worker, super athletic, loads of potential to be a star but it will take time. D.Smith Jr. Attacks the rim hard, very skilled, tuff kid.
I will come back with more guys later.
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Rumblings? Rumblings or senseless gossip?

Post  deusXango on Sat Jun 03, 2017 10:16 pm

If the trade of Drummond for Porzingis is consummated, will he play with a frontline of Harris and Ellenson? The bigger question is, how big is Porzingis contract compared to Drummond's max. deal and there's talk about us throwing in #12? That seems kind of backwards; why isn't N.Y. throwing us their 1st rounder? Hating Drummond, for whatever reason, is one thing, but being foolish when it comes to trading him is another.
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Finally there is some rumblings about potential trades involving Andre Drummond

Post  cool breeze on Sat Jun 03, 2017 6:37 pm

Mr. P is unhappy in NY. He fits SVG's system. But isn't it interesting that Drummond's value is not good enough for an even trade. We have to throw in our 12th pick according to the experts. Still to me this is a positive thing for the Detroit Pistons. And the Boston Celtics might be interested in our starting center as well. This might be the best place from Drummond because if Brad Stevens is unable to make any headway in improving Andre nobody can. This is the time Piston fans to part with Andre Drummond. Maybe Baynes has been advised to wait and see what happens with the Drummond situation.

Reading some of the posts, I had to laugh at the idea that Detroit might get a deal done if they included our 2nd round pick from last year. I thought all the talk was that he was not going to be invited back to Piston training camp. Things are getting pretty wild to mention his name.

What I am getting is that Detroit might not be in a good bargaining position the talk involves our 12th pick.

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Re: FORUM

Post  deusXango on Sat Jun 03, 2017 5:57 pm

Why is it that Reggie Jackson and Jon Leuer receive absolutely no trade conversation? It's stupid to talk about going for a veteran, in exchange for our #12 pick, when we have Leuer, and dumber still, not knowing who's the best backcourt player on the Pistons; Reggie or KCP. IMHO Drummond is a more valuable frontcourt player than Leuer and KCP is a more valuable backcourt player than Reggie, so what's the confusion?

"Get them draft picks right. P.S. Stay away from Donovan Mitchell and Justin Jackson. They will be FLOPS in the NBA. I GUARANTEE IT!!!"-Phil1980boy

How does the leader of the NCAA Championship team transition into the NBA as a flop? Are there multiple examples of this? This player consistently improved his game year-after-year, something KCP hasn't done to the extent Jackson has, and I'm talking college and pros. Donovan Mitchell is an athletic freak, but too short for todays elite SG's...his basketball I.Q. isn't as high as Jackson's either. We're talking #12! If he should be available and we get him, it's my opinion that we scored a gem. Phillip Boy, your post blew me away, until that statement I highlighted; after we passed on your boy Devin Booker, I can see you pulling for Luke Kennard this year, but I'm taking the taller, more skilled player, with the higher ceiling.

When are we going to get a new coach? Okay, so no one likes Mark Jackson, then who? We can't keep placing our trust in SVG.
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Not So Fast

Post  lemonpen on Sat Jun 03, 2017 3:10 pm

Phil1980boy wrote:This organization can be A easy FIX.

I got 3 facts I stand by.

1. Reggie Jackson must go.
2. KCP must be involved in some kind of sign and trade if possible.
3. Let's take the blue pill. This is A reality check. This is A mini rebuild situation.

First thing first. See how bad Philadelphia really loves KCP. How about KCP in A sign and trade for that 3rd pick? 76ERS are loaded and could use KCP more then that 3rd pick. I believe the 76ERS would bite.

Next, I would get on the phone with any team and see what I can fish for Reggie Jackson. Orlando, Minnesota, Phx, would all be my focus.

My very next move might be my most important. I would sit down all my scouts and let them know. We can't miss out on A Devin Booker! We can't! We have to make that selection. We can't miss out on that kind of talent.  Go out and get this S.H.I.T. RIGHT!!

Let's check back in to reality. Minnesota, Denver and Philadelphia. Do it like that. Rebuild this S.H.I.T on the fly. Stop lying to self about win now BULL-S.H.I.T Detroit now winning S.H.I.T no time soon.

Get them draft picks right. P.S. Stay away from Donovan Mitchell and Justin Jackson. They will be FLOPS in the NBA. I GUARANTEE IT!!!
You have a timeline problem. S&T can't be worked out till approximately 2 weeks after the draft
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Nothing's Easy

Post  BallinD on Sat Jun 03, 2017 5:08 am

But I like your ideas, Phil. So we probably can't get much for Weggie right now, but I want him gone too, just might have to showcase him a bit cause I don't think SVG Gores have the stomach for the kind of rebuild cause it is questionable SVG would play a rookie pg. If we could get KCP, a non-star for a 3 pick and it works, I would be surprised.

As for drafting right, I have my doubts if they will swing for the fences. There is probably a star in the making at 12. Kawhi and the Greek Freek are examples of that happening a few picks later. Probably, this year that is true too. The Pistons draft brain trust just passed on going to the jnformal NBA draft Combine 2.0, the same one where the Spurs snagged Jonathon Simmons and are mumbling about trading our no. 12 pick. Hope I'm wrong.

I do like the idea of Justin Jackson or Kennard, maybe Mitchell. So far our draftee workout list is very underwhelming. Pick it up Stan. He obviously likes to eat, but I don't see him having any stomach for even a mini-rebuild. Hope I'm wrong. He seems like the double down type to me, but Mike Valenti gave him the business about our mediocre upside on an interview last week, so maybe he will catch a clue.



Phil1980boy wrote:This organization can be A easy FIX.

I got 3 facts I stand by.

1. Reggie Jackson must go.
2. KCP must be involved in some kind of sign and trade if possible.
3. Let's take the blue pill. This is A reality check. This is A mini rebuild situation.

First thing first. See how bad Philadelphia really loves KCP. How about KCP in A sign and trade for that 3rd pick? 76ERS are loaded and could use KCP more then that 3rd pick. I believe the 76ERS would bite.

Next, I would get on the phone with any team and see what I can fish for Reggie Jackson. Orlando, Minnesota, Phx, would all be my focus.

My very next move might be my most important. I would sit down all my scouts and let them know. We can't miss out on A Devin Booker! We can't! We have to make that selection. We can't miss out on that kind of talent.  Go out and get this S.H.I.T. RIGHT!!

Let's check back in to reality. Minnesota, Denver and Philadelphia. Do it like that. Rebuild this S.H.I.T on the fly. Stop lying to self about win now BULL-S.H.I.T Detroit now winning S.H.I.T no time soon.

Get them draft picks right. P.S. Stay away from Donovan Mitchell and Justin Jackson. They will be FLOPS in the NBA. I GUARANTEE IT!!!
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The Pistons can be A really easy fix

Post  Phil1980boy on Sat Jun 03, 2017 4:38 am

This organization can be A easy FIX.

I got 3 facts I stand by.

1. Reggie Jackson must go.
2. KCP must be involved in some kind of sign and trade if possible.
3. Let's take the blue pill. This is A reality check. This is A mini rebuild situation.

First thing first. See how bad Philadelphia really loves KCP. How about KCP in A sign and trade for that 3rd pick? 76ERS are loaded and could use KCP more then that 3rd pick. I believe the 76ERS would bite.

Next, I would get on the phone with any team and see what I can fish for Reggie Jackson. Orlando, Minnesota, Phx, would all be my focus.

My very next move might be my most important. I would sit down all my scouts and let them know. We can't miss out on A Devin Booker! We can't! We have to make that selection. We can't miss out on that kind of talent. Go out and get this S.H.I.T. RIGHT!!

Let's check back in to reality. Minnesota, Denver and Philadelphia. Do it like that. Rebuild this S.H.I.T on the fly. Stop lying to self about win now BULL-S.H.I.T Detroit now winning S.H.I.T no time soon.

Get them draft picks right. P.S. Stay away from Donovan Mitchell and Justin Jackson. They will be FLOPS in the NBA. I GUARANTEE IT!!!
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Getting To There

Post  BallinD on Sat Jun 03, 2017 12:19 am

Whatever we want to see is what we are all arguing about in this offseason of our hopeful discontent.

Do we want to see 2015-16 Stones who surged toward the postseason and competed with the Cavs.  That team looked like it could compete with anybody, so I get the hope.  But I had to admit we did not win one game and maybe the basic azz PnR offense had been sniffed out and would not pass playoff muster.

Or do we want to see a version of the 2016-17 Ish Smith winning streak Stones who showed us a different flavor in a short window by winning without a ball dominant Reggie and doing it in impressive fashion while better utilizing all the talent of the team in a harmonious and exciting fashion.

With SVG is there a middle path?

Need more shooting.


Leuer, SJ, KCP, Morris and Tobias all shot worse than their previous year.  Drummond shot marginally better, but we learned he needs to shoot less than shoot better.  Reggie shot better but can't defend or run a competent offense, he and Drummond were a net negative while on the floor.  Drummond can't play a power game or finish games because of his FT shooting, a mission critical blemish.

What does this really mean?  A mirage or a truth?

So the discussions continue.  Will we draft and try to improve the team, or go for a veteran and trade our pick.  It's hard to imagine our way to contending under either choice, and the way they played down the stetch left a sour taste.  So some are inclined to see more need for change to the core and believe we actually need to create a core, while others believe tweaks, health, and good luck can get us there.

Stirring the Pot of discontent

Deep, impactful draft and big free agent class, lottsa teams wanting to shake things up, while it seems SVG and his annointed hero Big Dre wants to stand pat.  What is Tom Gores thinking?  Does he risk further embarrassment going downtown next year??  Sacramento has three picks, Portland has three, who else could be partners?  Would SVG have patience for rookies? Or must we try to win now?/Win what now????


Last edited by BallinD on Sat Jun 03, 2017 12:25 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : oops)
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Trades?

Post  Sparma on Sat Jun 03, 2017 12:10 am

Thanks Oracle.

I like the idea of the Pistons moving up into the top ten, I just think the price will be steep this year to move even into the lower part of the top ten, based on what sounds like the consensus.

The offer would at least be #12 & Stanley Johnson, rather than Michael Gbinije, for the #10. Even then, I doubt that would be a tempting offer to the other team. Maybe Dallas at #9 would go for our 12 & Ellenson? That in turn begins to look to me like two much from our side.

I heard Portland might like to trade one of their three number #1s, if the Knicks took on one of their big salaries. We can't do that for them, but I wonder if Portland might be receptive to trading two of their three 1st round picks (they have 15, 20, 26) for our #12. I'm guessing they'd trade the 20 & 26, but we might not go for that. 15 & 20 would be too much to hope for, I'd think.

[I know those ideas would need to be tweaked to fit NBA regulations.]

btw, 538 (Nate Silver's site) gave the Warriors a 90% chance of winning the series (before it started). They can be wrong, with Hillary sitting on over 70% odds on election night, but that finals pick's looking good.

another btw: if Cleveland loses (badly), I see Carmelo playing there next year (but not for a return anywhere near Love). Hope that happens, for the Knicks and for Carmelo. I must be about the last Phil supporter out there.

Oracle wrote:Two good posts.

First, are you kidding me??? $5000 is all that stands between Ben Gordon and freedom? Come on, he should be able to pick his teeth and have 5K pop out!

Well, if he isn't out by Monday, we need to pass the hat and get our boy out! We didn't help Rodney White when he was flashing his roscoe, so let's help the little runt get out of jail!

Draft Move:
This is very good out of the box thinking, and it would give s way more than I ever imagined we could get out of this draft, even if we had our 2nd round pick.
Sparma wrote:It's my understanding that there's a consensus top ten prospects in this year's draft.  Weird things happen, and I was shocked to get AD at #9 and Ellenson at #18.  Still, I'm skeptical that Michael Gbinije suffices to get us in a position to get Malik Monk.  But there you have it.  Maybe??  No.  We're going to need to try to improve using realistic means.

cbssports:

"Malik Monk, SG, Kentucky


Mock trade: Sacramento sends 10th pick to Detroit for 12th pick and Michael Gbinije.

With perhaps the best natural scorer in this draft still available at 10, the Pistons frantically pull the trigger on a trade that'll instantly give them credibility from three-point land, where this team struggles as much as any team in the league. It's a win-win; the Pistons draft a player in Monk who would have been a top-five level talent in a less stacked draft, while the Kings only drop back a couple of picks and acquire a useful piece in combo guard Michael Gbineje, who was a second-round pick last year (and who shot nearly 40 percent from three his senior season in college)."
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Re: FORUM

Post  cool breeze on Fri Jun 02, 2017 11:05 pm

Oracle wrote:I simply don't understand how you and Don just can't seem to grasp the concept that we don't have any choice except to sign KCP, what about that fact don't you guys get... Wow!

The conversation isn't how much he makes that's so silly it shocks me that you guys keep bringing it up.

If you guys just thought about this for one second, you'd realize(or not) that the more we pay him, the more we get in return if it's a sign and trade or a straight trade.

If your goal is to get rid of KCP, those are your options... there's NOTHING else...

What is it that we don't get Oracle. I am concerned about the team offering Pope a new contract for $20 to $25 million dollars for 4 or 5 years. If that deal is done and Pope doesn't improve next season we will be watching him do the same thing for 5 more years. The team will not be competitive because he will take up too much money. On a sign and trade the Pistons would need to be exceptional smart and guess right on the players we would be getting in return unless the players have short terms left on their contracts. Are you saying that the there is no option for the Pistons to just allow Pope to sign with another team and wish him luck? I just do not see what we would be missing if that happened. Pope has been a key member of an inferior team. He was not the best player on that dysfunctional team on most nights. Harris was the best player in my opinion. I know that I must be missing something though because you seem certain that there are only the two options you mentioned. If the 3rd option is not allowed by the NBA that the Pistons just forget about Pope and plug in another player next year, I didn't know that. If the Pistons can let Pope sign with another team and the Pistons can breath easier because of all that money they didn't have to pay that is the best option in my opinion. Unless Pope is a superstar in the making which I have not seen any sign that he is that type of player or ever has been that type of player, the Pistons need to pass on him. We will find another better 2 guard and groom him. As structured, this Piston roster with Jackson, Drummond and Pope will always be outside looking in and the remaining players will all want to be traded. If I had to pick, I would chose Pope over Drummond and Jackson. However, Pope is not in the top tier of elite 2 guards. The team will be 2nd rate for several years to come so why spend the money? Draft a rookie 2 guard. Play Stanley Johnson and the rookie 2 guard and see where that takes us. Trade Andre Drummond now before he gets any worse if that is a possibility. Draft another center who is more fundamentally sound or take an experienced defensive minded center in the Drummond trade. Keep Jackson and if he improves trade him before the next trade deadline. Detroit is in great financial position for the future. The team will be much more fun to watch. There will be more hope and less depression knowing Drummond, Jackson and Pope will no longer be wearing Piston uniforms. Again Pope never was a leader type player. He never rallied the troops when the team was down in the toilet. He took too many wild off balance shots. His defense was not good enough to make us overlook his offensive defects. However if the Piston owner is placed in handcuffs because he failed to sign Pope because of some NBA regulation I don't know about then and only then should the owner sign Pope of course under protest. It is all about the kind of money Pope is asking for in the end I think. For $8 mil I would want to see how much he can improve. But the risk is too great to get stuck with another high priced player who does impress me at all. However, I respect the fact that you do see something special in Pope. I hope you are right if Detroit does make this big financial decision. But if SVG is not thinking like a short term employee, he has to be really worried about the high possibility that the Pistons will be right back in this same position next summer No money to spend on new players. No trades possible because Jackson, Drummond and Pope will be the same players they were this past season. To me it is extremely important to trade Drummond now because I believe he will play just like Charlie V again next year.

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DX

Post  Oracle on Fri Jun 02, 2017 9:50 pm

I simply don't understand how you and Don just can't seem to grasp the concept that we don't have any choice except to sign KCP, what about that fact don't you guys get... Wow!

The conversation isn't how much he makes that's so silly it shocks me that you guys keep bringing it up.

If you guys just thought about this for one second, you'd realize(or not) that the more we pay him, the more we get in return if it's a sign and trade or a straight trade.

If your goal is to get rid of KCP, those are your options... there's NOTHING else...
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Post  Oracle on Fri Jun 02, 2017 9:45 pm

Two good posts.

First, are you kidding me??? $5000 is all that stands between Ben Gordon and freedom? Come on, he should be able to pick his teeth and have 5K pop out!

Well, if he isn't out by Monday, we need to pass the hat and get our boy out! We didn't help Rodney White when he was flashing his roscoe, so let's help the little runt get out of jail!

Draft Move:
This is very good out of the box thinking, and it would give s way more than I ever imagined we could get out of this draft, even if we had our 2nd round pick.
Sparma wrote:It's my understanding that there's a consensus top ten prospects in this year's draft.  Weird things happen, and I was shocked to get AD at #9 and Ellenson at #18.  Still, I'm skeptical that Michael Gbinije suffices to get us in a position to get Malik Monk.  But there you have it.  Maybe??  No.  We're going to need to try to improve using realistic means.

cbssports:

"Malik Monk, SG, Kentucky


Mock trade: Sacramento sends 10th pick to Detroit for 12th pick and Michael Gbinije.

With perhaps the best natural scorer in this draft still available at 10, the Pistons frantically pull the trigger on a trade that'll instantly give them credibility from three-point land, where this team struggles as much as any team in the league. It's a win-win; the Pistons draft a player in Monk who would have been a top-five level talent in a less stacked draft, while the Kings only drop back a couple of picks and acquire a useful piece in combo guard Michael Gbineje, who was a second-round pick last year (and who shot nearly 40 percent from three his senior season in college)."
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Believe It Buddy

Post  deusXango on Fri Jun 02, 2017 9:43 pm

Oracle wrote:Just my opinion, but here are some facts.

The list goes on and on, generally the players with the highest IQ's coming out of school are the less talented players in my experience, because that was their biggest advantage. Magic Johnson? Larry Bird? Isiah Thomas? Grant Hill? Jason Kidd?

I think you guys are very optimistic, Ellenson is going to take awhile to get smart, and this Justin Jackson kid is years away from taking anybody's job, I don't know what you guys are smoking, but it must be some powerful stuff. Can eh even shoot the NBA 3 like the college 3? Just how smart does a NBA PF have to be? Playing behind Reggie Bullock, it may be just a matter of time (that's if SVG does the right thing and signs Bullock over KCP), and my opinion is Jackson will be a much better (consistent) 3 pt. shooter than KCP.

http://www.nba.com/pistons/features/first-round-candidate-justin-jackson-0 wrote:ID CARD: 6-foot-8¼ small forward, North Carolina, junior, 22 years old

DRAFT RANGE: Ranked 13th by DraftExpress.com; 25th by ESPN.com; fourth among shooting guards by NBA.com

SCOUTS LOVE: Jackson broke out as a North Carolina junior after two seasons of deferring to more established players on typically loaded rosters in Chapel Hill. His scoring average jumped to 18.3 after seasons of 10.7 and 12.2 and his shot attempts went from 10.4 as a sophomore to 14.9 as a junior. Jackson also saw a dramatic leap in his 3-point attempts (120 to 284) and accuracy (.292 to .370). That type of shooting range and marksmanship, coupled with Jackson’s unique array of shots on the move and floaters, give him a chance to be a coveted complementary scorer in the NBA. He was a high school contemporary of Justise Winslow in the greater Houston area and ranked the 11th best recruit in the high school class of 2014.

SCOUTS WONDER: Jackson’s frame is the biggest red flag, weighing in at just 201 pounds at the NBA draft combine last month in Chicago. That’s why NBA.com has him listed as a shooting guard on the assumption that he’ll be better suited to defending the slighter players at that spot than bigger small forwards. That could be equally challenging for him, though, and calls into question his lateral quickness and ability to chase around screens. The fact he’s 22 after three years in one of college basketball’s marquee programs and has barely cracked 200 pounds naturally leads to concern over how much additional weight and strength he’ll be able to add.

NUMBER TO NOTE: 2.8 – Jackson’s assists per game, a solid number for a primary scorer who’s not a point guard and indicates Jackson’s vision and passing ability. Put together with his scoring potential, Jackson has a chance – depending on the team that drafts him – to be more ready than most rookies to contribute early.

MONEY QUOTE: “I think it was really important. That’s the feedback I got last year. You’ve got to shoot the ball more consistently to be able to play at this level. I took that extremely serious and last year was kind of just a translation of all the work I put in in the off-season. I’ve tried to keep that going as time has gone on. I’m going to continue to try to do that and continue to try to get better every day.” Jackson at the NBA draft combine on May 11 on the importance of improving his 3-point shooting as a college junior

PISTONS FIT:
 The Pistons are looking to punch up their offense, in particular their 3-point shooting. Rookies rarely come to the league able to shoot at or above the NBA average 3-point mark. The ones who do generally fit Jackson’s profile: players who spent more than a single season in college. His ability to hit floaters and pass make Jackson more than a one-dimensional offensive threat. He’d face a loaded depth chart at small forward (Marcus Morris, Tobias Harris, Stanley Johnson) or shooting guard (Kentavious Caldwell-Pope, Johnson) with the Pistons, perhaps knocking him down a peg or two on their draft board.


BOTTOM LINE:
 Is Jackson a lankier Rip Hamilton or a shorter Austin Daye? Chances are he’ll wind up with a career somewhere in the middle of their far-removed resumes. But if the evaluation of Stan Van Gundy’s scouting staff puts him clearly closer to the Hamilton end of the spectrum, that would represent outstanding value with the 12th pick. Even if the roster argues against Jackson’s fit, he would deserve careful consideration if the Pistons determine his scoring and all-around offensive potential rank near the top of the draft class.
Oracle, after reading the professionals evaluation of Justin Jackson (which I'm grateful that you supplied) it seems that Jackson is the answer to the "how much do we pay for a middling, skilled SG in KCP" dilemma. We're coming off a 37-45 season, for whatever reason, with the 3rd highest payroll in the NBA and the torches and pitch forks are out to run off our starting center (a max. contract player) and our starting PG (who makes damn near max. money, based on when he signed his contract), so let me appeal to the businessman in you. Just how many games did KCP put the team on his back and carry them to victory (the occasional wild-eyed 3 is not putting a team on his back when he went 3-22 from the field; it's called luck). How many NCAA champions are on the roster? How many colligate "All Any Things" are on the roster? How much has KCP improved since he left Georgia?! Enough to deserve a max. from the Pistons? This is not about loyalty, this is business. Nothing changes if nothing changes; this team needs to start developing for the future. It's plain madness to talk about winning now, while we collectively roll over and acknowledge the Cavs and Warriors will rule the roost for the next 3-5 years. Our job now should be getting on top of the Celtics, the Wizards, and the hard-charging Buck's. Starting now with the likes of Harris, Ellenson, Johnson, J. Jackson, and yes, Drummond, we should be ready to compete for a 'ship in the next 3-5 years, and the money saved by not making foolish signings, we can sign that superstar that'll make a difference.
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To dream the impossible dream....

Post  Sparma on Fri Jun 02, 2017 9:03 pm

It's my understanding that there's a consensus top ten prospects in this year's draft. Weird things happen, and I was shocked to get AD at #9 and Ellenson at #18. Still, I'm skeptical that Michael Gbinije suffices to get us in a position to get Malik Monk. But there you have it. Maybe?? No. We're going to need to try to improve using realistic means.

cbssports:

"Malik Monk, SG, Kentucky


Mock trade: Sacramento sends 10th pick to Detroit for 12th pick and Michael Gbinije.

With perhaps the best natural scorer in this draft still available at 10, the Pistons frantically pull the trigger on a trade that'll instantly give them credibility from three-point land, where this team struggles as much as any team in the league. It's a win-win; the Pistons draft a player in Monk who would have been a top-five level talent in a less stacked draft, while the Kings only drop back a couple of picks and acquire a useful piece in combo guard Michael Gbineje, who was a second-round pick last year (and who shot nearly 40 percent from three his senior season in college)."
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Ben Gordon

Post  Sparma on Fri Jun 02, 2017 8:53 pm

"Former NBA player Ben Gordon was arrested Thursday morning, according to online jail records.

Gordon, 34, was taken into custody by Los Angeles police at 7:10 a.m. local time and he remained in jail with his bail set at $5,000 as of Thursday afternoon. TMZ reported that Los Angeles police and firefighters responded to Gordon's apartment complex after he allegedly pulled several fire alarms.

An LAPD spokesperson told USA TODAY Sports details were not yet available on the arrest."
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I don't believe it, but that's...

Post  Oracle on Fri Jun 02, 2017 6:13 pm

Just my opinion, but here are some facts.

I have rarely seen even superstar players have high BBall IQ's in their rookie contracts.

Examples that I have followed.
1. Kobe - Dumb as nails, Laker fans were terrified when he had the ball, wondering if they were going to see something great or something dumb.
2. Shaq - Took years to become passable IQ wise, and some think he never got quite right.
3. DWade - took his teams out of games just as fast as he got them into games.

The list goes on and on, generally the players with the highest IQ's coming out of school are the less talented players in my experience, because that was their biggest advantage.

I think you guys are very optimistic, Ellenson is going to take awhile to get smart, and this Justin Jackson kid is years away from taking anybody's job, I don't know what you guys are smoking, but it must be some powerful stuff. Can eh even shoot the NBA 3 like the college 3?

http://www.nba.com/pistons/features/first-round-candidate-justin-jackson-0 wrote:ID CARD: 6-foot-8¼ small forward, North Carolina, junior, 22 years old

DRAFT RANGE: Ranked 13th by DraftExpress.com; 25th by ESPN.com; fourth among shooting guards by NBA.com

SCOUTS LOVE: Jackson broke out as a North Carolina junior after two seasons of deferring to more established players on typically loaded rosters in Chapel Hill. His scoring average jumped to 18.3 after seasons of 10.7 and 12.2 and his shot attempts went from 10.4 as a sophomore to 14.9 as a junior. Jackson also saw a dramatic leap in his 3-point attempts (120 to 284) and accuracy (.292 to .370). That type of shooting range and marksmanship, coupled with Jackson’s unique array of shots on the move and floaters, give him a chance to be a coveted complementary scorer in the NBA. He was a high school contemporary of Justise Winslow in the greater Houston area and ranked the 11th best recruit in the high school class of 2014.

SCOUTS WONDER: Jackson’s frame is the biggest red flag, weighing in at just 201 pounds at the NBA draft combine last month in Chicago. That’s why NBA.com has him listed as a shooting guard on the assumption that he’ll be better suited to defending the slighter players at that spot than bigger small forwards. That could be equally challenging for him, though, and calls into question his lateral quickness and ability to chase around screens. The fact he’s 22 after three years in one of college basketball’s marquee programs and has barely cracked 200 pounds naturally leads to concern over how much additional weight and strength he’ll be able to add.

NUMBER TO NOTE: 2.8 – Jackson’s assists per game, a solid number for a primary scorer who’s not a point guard and indicates Jackson’s vision and passing ability. Put together with his scoring potential, Jackson has a chance – depending on the team that drafts him – to be more ready than most rookies to contribute early.

MONEY QUOTE: “I think it was really important. That’s the feedback I got last year. You’ve got to shoot the ball more consistently to be able to play at this level. I took that extremely serious and last year was kind of just a translation of all the work I put in in the off-season. I’ve tried to keep that going as time has gone on. I’m going to continue to try to do that and continue to try to get better every day.” Jackson at the NBA draft combine on May 11 on the importance of improving his 3-point shooting as a college junior

PISTONS FIT:
 The Pistons are looking to punch up their offense, in particular their 3-point shooting. Rookies rarely come to the league able to shoot at or above the NBA average 3-point mark. The ones who do generally fit Jackson’s profile: players who spent more than a single season in college. His ability to hit floaters and pass make Jackson more than a one-dimensional offensive threat. He’d face a loaded depth chart at small forward (Marcus Morris, Tobias Harris, Stanley Johnson) or shooting guard (Kentavious Caldwell-Pope, Johnson) with the Pistons, perhaps knocking him down a peg or two on their draft board.


BOTTOM LINE:
 Is Jackson a lankier Rip Hamilton or a shorter Austin Daye? Chances are he’ll wind up with a career somewhere in the middle of their far-removed resumes. But if the evaluation of Stan Van Gundy’s scouting staff puts him clearly closer to the Hamilton end of the spectrum, that would represent outstanding value with the 12th pick. Even if the roster argues against Jackson’s fit, he would deserve careful consideration if the Pistons determine his scoring and all-around offensive potential rank near the top of the draft class.
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Re: FORUM

Post  cool breeze on Fri Jun 02, 2017 4:52 pm

Oracle wrote:Drafting the right guy, having him come in and move somebody out.

Think Curry getting knocked out of the starting lineup by Prince.

Competition is good, and that goes for any position we have, if somebody can beat out KCP or anybody else, they should get the job.

That's going to be Ellenson's task, he shouldn't get it on day one, he should have to earn it.

Oracle dX just provided more information on Jackson and I too believe he is the right player and the steal of this draft. However, if he is drafted by Detroit and SVG signs Pope all bets are off relating to anyone playing more than 10 minutes a game. How many minutes did Reggie Jackson or Andre Drummond really earn this past season? If Pope signs SVG is going to play him regardless of what happens. I wish that SVG believed in true competition regardless of the contract but he doesn't.

Draft Justin Jackson. Trade Drummond and attempt a sign a trade deal with Pope. Otherwise let Pope walk. The Pistons will be much better if those three things happen.

How about that game by Durant? WOW!

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Re: FORUM

Post  deusXango on Fri Jun 02, 2017 4:38 pm

"He is the second player in the storied Tar Heel history to score 1,600 career points, make 150 three-pointers, snatch 400 rebounds and dish 300 assists.

He set UNC’s single-season record with 105 threes.

And considering the Pistons were one of the worst shooting teams in the league last season, Jackson increased his three-point percentage from 29.2% in the 2015-16 season to 37% this season, while increasing his three-point attempts per game from 3 to 7.1."


Documented hard work and results! Yes Don, Justin Jackson has a very high basketball I.Q. and is fundamentally sound. I forgot to mention those qualities that neither of our current backcourt starters possess, and I don't think he'd have any problem beating KCP out in his rookie year (then what'll we do with a freshly signed $25 million a year SG). I think he'll be the steal of the draft, because he's being overlooked for some strange reason, and he's a bona-fide team player also.

Oracle, I don't want Ellenson being gifted anything...I'd prefer he out & out kicked Leuer's ass and won the starting PF job righteously. The problem now is we have too many players gifted spots in the rotation. I personally believe that Ellenson skillset is far superior to Leuer's and to take it a step further, he's stronger as well. What can we get in a S & T for KCP and what's Leuer's worth on the trade market?


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Dx and Don: I like that old fashioned way too...

Post  Oracle on Fri Jun 02, 2017 12:43 pm

Drafting the right guy, having him come in and move somebody out.

Think Curry getting knocked out of the starting lineup by Prince.

Competition is good, and that goes for any position we have, if somebody can beat out KCP or anybody else, they should get the job.

That's going to be Ellenson's task, he shouldn't get it on day one, he should have to earn it.
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Question of the day. Can anyone recall any NBA player who came into the NBA fundamentally unsound especially big men, who ever amounted to a hill of beans?

Post  cool breeze on Fri Jun 02, 2017 12:30 pm

Knowing in my heart that Andre Drummond should be moved as soon as possible, I keep trying to explain why to those who still have hope that our big highly paid center will ever become a winning type of player. Maybe by looking at NBA history the truth can be told.

While watching the good playoff teams i try to see the areas where our Piston players fall short. We can argue for days about the impact of a NBA coach but once the game begins it is up to the players to out play their competition. In this series the pace of the game was incredible. The players on both teams make it look easy as to how fast they run the court, see the court, pass the basketball, set multiple screens etc on offense. But how about the effort Golden State made with their help defense last night. For the first time this playoff season we saw a team that was able to double team Cleveland players in the corners, trap Labron games, beat Love and Irving to their sweet shooting spots and play fundamentally sound basketball in the paint relating to boxing out and controlling the defensive boards. That took extreme effort that I have not seen from a Piston team in many years. So we can talk all we want as to how our players will respond after such a boring year, but the facts are we have too many fundamentally unsound players to ever be able to compete with elite teams that can play basketball at the pace this last finals game was played. The speed of the game really reveals the mentally weak fundamentally unsound players that pose as real NBA players. The defects are exploited by the elite players.

Who is the most fundamentally unsound player on the Piston team now? Can anyone guess who that player might be? No it couldn't be Andre Drummond could it? You see Andre Drummond is trying out there. He might look lazy on the court at times but the truth is he is confused as a player most of the time. Andre just has not been able to mentally put it together while playing defense and that is why he is easy prey for players like Anthony Davis etc. Now remember Dennis Rodman when he came into the league as a rookie. Dennis scored a lot of points in college and few noticed the fact that that guy was incredibly fundamentally sound as a defender. When did you ever see Rodman not box out on the defensive boards. He was always looking for an offensive cutter on the weak side to slide into the paint and snag an offensive rebound. Remember Rodman's foot work when playing on the ball defense or pick and roll defense? He was outstanding. Plus his motor was off the charts but when you know how to play fast without making dumb mistakes, it makes you feel like you are more successful and that gets your adrenaline stoked up even more. While Drummond is an incredibly athletic guy for his size, he is not in really good shape and carries too much weight to be keep up with the sleek modern NBA big men. There are a lot more fundamentally unsound big men getting paid big money now in this league but Drummond ranks right up at the top of CONFUSED BIG MEN TRYING TO match the pace of players like the 7 foot Kevin Durant. When you are fundamentally unsound entering the league it is almost impossible to have the right instincts to make smart decisions on defense. You usually guess wrong and opposing players know your defects like reaching and the blow around you for the easy layups. The fast tempo destroys the confused mind. When kids learn to ski or play tennis starting at age 6, they always have the advantage on grown men their age who learned how to play those sports as adults. It is not possible at the NBA level to make players into something they have never been. The opposing players are automatic and can play all out at top speed without making mistakes.

This is the reason why Andre Drummond can never be placed in a leadership role on any NBA team. For Stan Van Gundy to place added pressure on a guy who is confused most of the time is insane when thinking that SVG was the man who made Andre Drummond the team leader or allowed Drummond to think he was the leader. Imagine Drummond trying to keep up mentally in that game last night. There is no time to think about what the coach wanted the player to do. You have to know what to do in every situation. You learn about basketball situations on both the offensive and defensive ends of the floor as kids actually before you get to the varsity level in high school.

Notice the player movement and ball movement last night by both teams. There were multiple screens set often by players to free up teammates. There was very little dribbling around for long periods by the point guards. Those players on both teams know what the hell they are doing on the court. Our players do not know that they don't know. Until we get some high basketball IQ players it won't matter who the coach is.

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Re: FORUM

Post  cool breeze on Fri Jun 02, 2017 11:55 am

deusXango wrote:I remember when Carmelo Anthony was the 2nd highest rated player in America (behind LeBron James) and won the NCAA championship in his freshman year, but the Pistons looked past him, with the 2nd pick and selected Darko who never really played for us; when the team began to decline, he was gone.

I'm not comparing these two players, but I am looking to the future; Justin Jackson has the potential to be a flat out beast (if he's utilized as a SG; he has the skillset to do so), starred on this years NCAA championship team, and is certain to be available at #12. What's wrong with a 6' 8" SG who can shoot an effective floater and moves without the ball like Rip Hamilton? He's also a better than reliable 3 pt. shooter like Rip. His age and credentials should make him an interesting prospect for the Pistons, but.....

Switching gears, I'm going to revisit my choice for the Pistons coach, if SVG has the stones to bring in a coach who can create team spirit and motivate maximum effort from a young team; he also has a history of understanding the young players of today and developing/giving a chance to play to those players. That choice is Mark Jackson. Why can't his record with establishing the Warriors as the premier team in the NBA be considered? Steve Kerr is not the "father" of the Warriors we see today, he's the beneficiary of a well oiled machine that was established before he got there. Maybe Mark Jackson just ain't "our kind of guy."

Will Henry Ellenson get a fair shot at being the Pistons starting PF next season or is it a foregone conclusion, in SVG's mind, that Jon Leuer is our PF, once his confidence returns over the summer? Will Tobias Harris get an opportunity to beat out Marcus Morris for the starting SF spot? In addition to shooting 1,000 threes a day over the summer, must he learn to fly also? Okay, SVG won't humble himself enough to hire Mark Jackson as the Pistons coach, you think he'll realize the need to try and bring Arnie Kander out of retirement for the health of the teams sake? The man was a wizard at what he did for years!!

What if Stanley and Boban show up this fall, vastly improved and kicking ass, will they be mainstays on the 2nd unit in the rotation, or every now and then afterthoughts like last year? Stanley, Marcus, and Boban make a very interesting 6-8 man bench (I left Leuer out because I think he needs to be traded, or rather his contract needs to be traded...Stanley, Marcus, and Boban all make less than Jon). Speaking of contracts, how many more years must we pay Josh Smith?

What grizzled vet does SVG have in mind that we can get for #12 and pieces that'll move the needle? If the team should play up to expectations, how can we tell if the vet made a difference or he rode on the coattails of a developing team?

I am with you on the idea of drafting Justin Jackson. You did not mention his basketball IQ dX. This guy has a high one. Who do you trust? Do you place faith in a guy who was outstanding in the NCAA tournament who was a guy that had all the pressure in the world and handled the pressure when it counted in big games? Or do you take a wild stab at potential? My feeling is that fans would quickly forget about KCP if this guy became a Piston. Did I forget about Jackson's passing skills? Should I mention his high basketball IQ which is missing from most of our current players??

If only SVG would step down from his coaching position and Hire Mark Jackson the nonsense would end. He did get things in motion turning around a dead franchise and to this day I am not sure why he was fired. Good post again dX.

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