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What If ?

Post  BallinD on Wed Jun 07, 2017 9:29 pm

Man it would be great if Ish beat out Weggie in training camp. I feel he could benefit more than anybody else from a good offseason shooting program. BTW, he (Ish) shot the ball better from the field than our soon-to-be $20 million Shooting Guard, 44% vs 39%.

Ish over Weggie, Reggie Bullock over KCP. I can dream. Boban over Baynes. Harris over Morris, Ellensen over Leuer (trade please) SVG is an impediment to alll of that, of course, and so if he doubles down on dumb rotations, uninspired offensive plays, his favorite sons, well it is gonna be a long season. It was so much fun to watch Ish do the waterbug, Boban do the Wilt. Wanna see more of that.

@Oracle. I think I was the first or one of the first to mention S&T for KCP, not coming late to that party. As I recall you ridiculed me for the notion and wondered who we could possibly get to replace a KCP, "Our best player," according to you. Not buying it!
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Life on life's terms...life has some helluva terms!

Post  deusXango on Wed Jun 07, 2017 9:15 pm

It's been said over and over that the Pistons will re-sign KCP this summer, regardless the cost. Has anyone ever considered that the cost could reach parting company with Reggie Jackson?

Tom Gores wouldn't be the successful businessman he is today being a fool; business is a cutthroat venture. After watching what he had in Ish Smith, for $6 million, compared to what he had for $10 million more in Reggie Jackson, does anyone really think he gives a damn about what SVG wants? SVG is the president/coach of the Pistons, but Mr. Gores wears the title that carries the weight; BOSS! The Boss has greater concerns than who's not shooting 3's for a high percentage, or the ISO leading to P & R; he's interested in the bottom line and that team that's led by Reggie Jackson is not good for the bottom line!
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KCP

Post  Sparma on Wed Jun 07, 2017 9:05 pm

I, in turn, feel misunderstood. I do think they pretty much need to sign him, this evidently in agreement with you. BUT, I think there's an enormous downside to doing so, both because it will put a grave pinch on our roster and because WE (rather than say the Nets) would be overpaying for his performance. I tried to establish the logical fallacy of equivocation that's common when asserting that if a player is offered something (eg the Nets offer KCP the max and the Pistons match), then it's market value, and it can't be overpaying, but was met with reiteration of the very proposition under debate (that is, begging the question). One addendum there: concerning RFAs it's not exactly a free market (i.e. they're restricted FAs), which contributes to teams (eg the Nets) making wild offers to decent players (Crabbe last year, maybe KCP this year) which leads to home teams matching for fear of getting nothing for decent players they might struggle to replace. And I not very optimistic about good trade prospects down the line for a pretty good player earning circa 20 mil. So, yes to S&T, but I'm skeptical the good offer is out there.



Oracle wrote:
Sparma wrote:BUT, put in context of our overall roster, our budget situation, and the structure of the NBA he's about to pose a heck of a conundrum for us(no he doesn't, in fact, he's the solution).  Let maybe our best player last year walk for nothing?; pay near max for a pretty good player, making it quite a bit tougher to improve the roster?  To me, that sounds like a big conundrum/ problem facing SVG.
Sparma, I've been explaining why signing KCP, even without a S&T being available is the smartest thing we can do, and I think DX and Balling are getting it, but you seem to have not put it all together, likely you may have missed some of my posts on the subject.

None of the reasoning most have about this is relevant because it comes down to a few simple facts.

This article does a great job of explaining the situation and maybe even Don can finally get it lol
http://pistonpowered.com/2017/06/07/detroit-pistons-resign-kentavious-caldwell-pope/ wrote:It’s been a foregone conclusion since before the 2016-17 regular season began that the Detroit Pistons were invested in re-signing Kentavious Caldwell-Pope this summer, perhaps regardless of the cost. There are a number of reasons for this: the structure of restricted free agency, cap minutiae, owner Tom Gores and coach and president Stan Van Gundy love him, and most importantly he’s both young and good at an important role that is difficult to adequately fill in the modern NBA.

.....................
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Sparma: What if the Pistons don’t re-sign Kentavious Caldwell-Pope?

Post  Oracle on Wed Jun 07, 2017 6:22 pm

Sparma wrote:BUT, put in context of our overall roster, our budget situation, and the structure of the NBA he's about to pose a heck of a conundrum for us(no he doesn't, in fact, he's the solution).  Let maybe our best player last year walk for nothing?; pay near max for a pretty good player, making it quite a bit tougher to improve the roster?  To me, that sounds like a big conundrum/ problem facing SVG.
Sparma, I've been explaining why signing KCP, even without a S&T being available is the smartest thing we can do, and I think DX and Balling are getting it, but you seem to have not put it all together, likely you may have missed some of my posts on the subject.

None of the reasoning most have about this is relevant because it comes down to a few simple facts.

This article does a great job of explaining the situation and maybe even Don can finally get it lol
http://pistonpowered.com/2017/06/07/detroit-pistons-resign-kentavious-caldwell-pope/ wrote:It’s been a foregone conclusion since before the 2016-17 regular season began that the Detroit Pistons were invested in re-signing Kentavious Caldwell-Pope this summer, perhaps regardless of the cost. There are a number of reasons for this: the structure of restricted free agency, cap minutiae, owner Tom Gores and coach and president Stan Van Gundy love him, and most importantly he’s both young and good at an important role that is difficult to adequately fill in the modern NBA.

.....................
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One More Thing

Post  lemonpen on Wed Jun 07, 2017 4:18 pm

Who suffered most when our transition game leader left the starting lineup. Hint: the fastest player on the team, the guy who finished many of the rapid thrusts upcourt. Just sayin ......
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A Plucky Fans' Take on Things

Post  deusXango on Wed Jun 07, 2017 3:02 pm

Oracle, you've made another very convincing argument, one that has changed my perspective on how to spend within the framework of the CAP, and get the most from the expenditures for the team. We've talked about the rapidity of KCP's development, or lack thereof, but as BallinD pointed out, perhaps there were outside influences that accounted for his progression/regression; those influences should be examined and evaluated for the betterment of the team. This should be done for every member of our perspective core group before making any rash signings. Of all the fishing expeditions (we've come to call FA signings) there's been only one who's pulled his weight when called on; Ish Smith, who many don't appreciate his dedication and contributions.

Across the board, members of this forum enjoyed a brand of basketball that was exciting, effective, and living up to the expectations that were established in the lone season we made the playoffs. SVG unexpectedly signed "the little engine that could" and he did; he came in cold, learned his teammates nuances, passed to and got everyone involved in the offense, and inspired a well balanced defense being played. The scoring was spread out and the core of Drummond, KCP, Harris, Morris, and Stanley Johnson to a lessor extent, had begun to win! The team didn't miss the playoffs and start loosing because of Smith, no, it was because of the "monkey wrench" thrown into a growing, successful, mix, named Reggie Jackson ("the walking wounded" Oracle referred to). The point I'm making with all this is, Morris is going to be talking contract sooner than we think, like KCP is now, and possibly/hopefully Ellenson will follow; the time for astute decision making is now.

For some fool-ass reason we found ourselves sold on that "wait and see" attitude when it became apparent that this was no longer Reggie's team/audience to destroy, through progressive regression, we didn't trade him when we could've gotten something; wait until the deadline, wait until the offseason, now we're back to waiting for another trade deadline. The bottom line is we're holding onto a counter-productive player at the expense of a young team! We have a PG, that nobody likes, that can run the P & R in addition to pushing the opposing defense to worry about us and not the other way around...we didn't get a chance to see that fully develop. Now we looking for redemption, and a magical return to "form." Because SVG valued Reggie to be a $16 million a year player (John Wall fainted again) doesn't mean he's viewed as such by other GM's around the league. SVG has been lucky over-valuing and over-paying players, when it comes to signing FA's, but he can't keep applying the stretch provision (Josh Smith) when he can't trade players because of outrageous contracts. My main reason for wanting Reggie traded, long ago, was because I knew where we stood with the CAP and I personally valued KCP more than Reggie. I wanted the Rubio deal done, but SVG started eating out of Reggie's *** and now he'd be lucky to get a parking lot attendant for his favorite $16 million man; Ricky Rubio would certainly have brought us another first round pick, if he didn't work out.

If we've got to carry three high priced players in our core, I'd rather they be Drummond ($24 million), KCP ($20 million) and Harris ($16 million); they're healthy, young enough to develop together, and all 3 have special skills to build on. I believe SVG should renounce the rights to Bullock, Gbinije, Hilliard, and try like hell to trade Reggie Jackson, Jon Leuer, and Boban Marjonavic. Pursue signing C.J. Miles, draft Justin Jackson, and bring in Sterling Brown, if he goes undrafted, a player that shoots the 3 ball better than Luke Kennard and has otherworldly athleticism. Oh, and being a Larry Brown coached player, he knows how to play the right way!
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Problem?

Post  Sparma on Wed Jun 07, 2017 2:00 pm

Tried a light-hearted reference to a non-macho movie that came out more than 50 years ago; clearly not the way to go.

In the movie, Maria herself clearly wasn't a/the problem as a individual person; arguably, within a certain context -- the nunnery -- she was at least perceived as a problem, however affectionately.

Analogously, KCP qua basketball player is not a problem, let alone the problem.  I think he's pretty good.   He's young, and I tried to make the case he actually did elevate his game for a good chunk of the season.  And the case has been made that he was our best player last year; who am I to disagree?

BUT, put in context of our overall roster, our budget situation, and the structure of the NBA he's about to pose a heck of a conundrum for us.  Let maybe our best player last year walk for nothing?; pay near max for a pretty good player, making it quite a bit tougher to improve the roster?  To me, that sounds like a big conundrum/ problem facing SVG.  

Maybe there's not a problem because there's a sign-and-trade ready at hand? I'd be for a sign-and-trade if there's a good one out there.  But I can't see that Brooklyn would be motivated as partner.  Drawing in a moderately good RFA with a huge offer is one of their only ways to improve.  Philly?  I doubt it.  Giving true value in return for a pretty good player would be a complete betrayal of "The Process", granted that they've been inching away from that post-Hinkie.  Who knows, but I don't see an easy solution to the problem in a good sign-and-trade for us.

btw, to briefly return to the subject of tanking never succeeding.  Saw an article recently (can't remember the source) about the Houston Astros (with the best record in baseball) succeeding by way of tanking, with explicit reference being made to basketball style tanking.   Going farther out on a branch, I think the Cleveland Browns will prove to a successful case of tanking (high picks; manipulating the system with cap space) within three or four years.  But it's too early even for me to call that one a success yet.  In the NBA, I do stand by my proclamation of Philly as a success in the making/ already a rebuilding success, but that statement could still be falsified in the Process still goes South, contra my expectation.


Last edited by Sparma on Wed Jun 07, 2017 3:38 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Ballin & DX

Post  Oracle on Wed Jun 07, 2017 5:45 am

Ballin, that was a very balanced post, but there's another way to look at positions. If I'm coaching, I see every position, not as who starts them, but as a single entity. On any given night, position X, let's say SG, I need a certain amount of points. So I need a starter and a backup that will get them for me.

I don't care if one is more defensive and one scores more, I need both, but one of them needs to score and one defend to make the points we score hold up. You want this at each and every position, and you start the players based on best ability and chemistry.

One big problem is that KCP has never had any real competition, That's not good for him and it's not good for us, so yeah, we should always be shopping, but without any competition at SG, we'll always be lacking something.
deusXango wrote:
Oracle wrote:KCP isn't the problem, he isn't the problem with the team or the cost, that problem is with league management. League management is responsible for our payroll and the net results of what we've been paying for? No, that's not what I meant.

If average players, which KCP is by the numbers and what he does(not counting potential), and the others on our payroll who are less than average cost what they cost, then the CAP is not being set properly. What? The CAP determines the relative cost of players. If the CAP was 300M with associated lux threshold, then you could sign many average players at a higher cost. But think of it this way. We need the CAP to reflect the exact relative coat as in the 90's. If players salaries were x and now their 5x, the CAP needs to go up by 5x. If that happens signing KCP to 25M is equivalent to the old days of slightly above the MLE... it's all relative.

Teams never used to have this problem signing average players, but prices are high now because there is a lot of money around, but the CAP needs to be adjusted such that signing players at these inflated prices doesn't limit a teams flexibility. This is one of the reasons I believe SVG is in waaay over his head. He's not a skilled executive and the coaching game has passed him by. We're still paying Josh Smith a tidy sum and this insane demand for a roster full of mid range scorers to shot 3's is off the top of my head. Can an old dog learn new tricks? This is likely SVG's last chance to prove he can. IMO, he'll either revamp this roster or revamp his coaching style if he wants to keep going beyond next season. He deserve the chance, but only one more.

Whatever KCP gets, or any player for that matter, they're worth it, end of discussion, the free market has spoken!

The only question after that is can they live up to what they've been paid. If they do, then everybody's happy, if they don't, they get moved. Shouldn't Reggie have been moved by the trade deadline, last year, then? Remember Reggie for Rubio? Possibly, but it's hard to move a player that's been injured and it's not really fair unless the injury is hard to recover from. Having said that, Rubio may have fit us a bit better.
I understand the reaction, but I don't understand the attempted solution by some wanting to sign the walking wounded or guys that have never played an NBA minute... that's really reaching, IMO, and leads nowhere. Reggie Bullock and say, Justin Jackson, is not a viable solution against a $25 million contract for average? Bullock is ridiculous, but Justin may be worth picking. Bullock is a huge risk while you've convinced me that Justin, while not my preference, isn't a bad pick if SVG makes it. But again, they don't get you anywhere and won't get us to the playoffs and aren't worth anything money wise.

These guys are worth nothing, so what can you trade them for if a star/superstar becomes available? Could KCP, Harris & Reggie net a superstar? Hell yeah, maybe even just 2 of them and a pick could net somebody, but what can you get for a broke down loser and a rookie, LOL! What superstar(s) did you have in mind that SVG could get for KCP, Reggie, and Harris? You threw it out there, so qualify it with some names that make sense...I'm excited. I mentioned before on a couple of occasions that Jimmy Butler is there for the taking if you have the assets Chicago could use to build around. Boston backed off, but he's still available.
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KCP

Post  BallinD on Wed Jun 07, 2017 2:00 am

[b]Sparma, Oracle: [b]Let's all hope KCP continues his slight and incremental progress and reverses the regressions.
Hope he gets a better coachup, he still has upside, if we do retain him and continue to look for a real sharpshooter, CJ Miles? I agree it is possible for him to take a jumpup to "good," he's almost there if he improves his shot, and if he plays to his strengths, continues to assist and if he plays fewer minutes.  I know that's a lot of ifs, but anywho I will be rooting for him. And no, he is not the problem, but I still contend he eats minutes that could be more productively allocated.
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I agree Oracle, KCP is not the problem, but......

Post  deusXango on Wed Jun 07, 2017 12:53 am

Oracle wrote:KCP isn't the problem, he isn't the problem with the team or the cost, that problem is with league management. League management is responsible for our payroll and the net results of what we've been paying for?

If average players, which KCP is by the numbers and what he does(not counting potential), and the others on our payroll who are less than average cost what they cost, then the CAP is not being set properly. What?

Teams never used to have this problem signing average players, but prices are high now because there is a lot of money around, but the CAP needs to be adjusted such that signing players at these inflated prices doesn't limit a teams flexibility. This is one of the reasons I believe SVG is in waaay over his head. He's not a skilled executive and the coaching game has passed him by. We're still paying Josh Smith a tidy sum and this insane demand for a roster full of mid range scorers to shot 3's is off the top of my head.

Whatever KCP gets, or any player for that matter, they're worth it, end of discussion, the free market has spoken!

The only question after that is can they live up to what they've been paid. If they do, then everybody's happy, if they don't, they get moved. Shouldn't Reggie have been moved by the trade deadline, last year, then? Remember Reggie for Rubio?

I understand the reaction, but I don't understand the attempted solution by some wanting to sign the walking wounded or guys that have never played an NBA minute... that's really reaching, IMO, and leads nowhere. Reggie Bullock and say, Justin Jackson, is not a viable solution against a $25 million contract for average?

These guys are worth nothing, so what can you trade them for if a star/superstar becomes available? Could KCP, Harris & Reggie net a superstar? Hell yeah, maybe even just 2 of them and a pick could net somebody, but what can you get for a broke down loser and a rookie, LOL! What superstar(s) did you have in mind that SVG could get for KCP, Reggie, and Harris? You threw it out there, so qualify it with some names that make sense...I'm excited.
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Sparma: KCP is NOT the problem

Post  Oracle on Wed Jun 07, 2017 12:35 am

KCP isn't the problem, he isn't the problem with the team or the cost, that problem is with league management.

If average players, which KCP is by the numbers and what he does(not counting potential), and the others on our payroll who are less than average cost what they cost, then the CAP is not being set properly.

Teams never used to have this problem signing average players, but prices are high now because there is a lot of money around, but the CAP needs to be adjusted such that signing players at these inflated prices doesn't limit a teams flexibility.

Whatever KCP gets, or any player for that matter, they're worth it, end of discussion, the free market has spoken!

The only question after that is can they live up to what they've been paid. If they do, then everybody's happy, if they don't, they get moved.

I understand the reaction, but I don't understand the attempted solution by some wanting to sign the walking wounded or guys that have never played an NBA minute... that's really reaching, IMO, and leads nowhere.

These guys are worth nothing, so what can you trade them for if a star/superstar becomes available? Could KCP, Harris & Reggie net a superstar? Hell yeah, maybe even just 2 of them and a pick could net somebody, but what can you get for a broke down loser and a rookie, LOL!
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What to do with a problem like KCP?

Post  Sparma on Tue Jun 06, 2017 10:42 pm

I was forgetting about the shoulder problem, Oracle. That could explain genuine progress throughout a good chunk of the season, then regression (along with the point concerning Reggie raised by Lemonpen).

But in comparing his last two seasons on the whole statistically, I'm more struck by stability than progress. For his career, cutting his fouls per 36 minutes about in half from his first season looks like a good feat (partly attributable to refs not giving rooks much respect?). And the assists took a jump forward this year (partly attributable to playing away from Reggie more often than last year rather than a leap in ability?). Shooting numbers a mixed bag. Several secondary numbers stable.

And I wasn't even taking into account the defensive comparison that BallinD mentions. If he's right about that, it makes it even tougher to argue for progress.

Still, he seems to have improved in some respects. And I'll stick with my mediating comment that he made genuine progress even though the season ending stats don't reflect that clearly.

On the whole, it seems like we don't have much choice but to sign him, in part because our budget doesn't provide prospects for a comparable signing; but signing him likely would mean us overpaying for what he delivers and becoming more financially pinched, rendering making the necessary roster upgrades tougher.

btw, I think there can be an equivocation when people say something like: he was signed at market value, so we must not being overpaying. That kind of thing is true from the vantage point of the player. If he signs for the max, then he must be worth the max because someone was willing to pay it. True, in one sense, but why is he worth the max? Presumably because a team like Brooklyn has very few avenues to improve (their pick goes to Boston next year too!?), has cap space, and needs to give big offers to lure players (Alan Crabbe??) to a bad situation. That doesn't mean signing him for the max (or even a few mil less) wouldn't be overpaying for us. It's just that the market and our situation would force us into overpaying. Sometimes you're pretty much forced into doing something that you know doesn't really make sense.

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KCP

Post  Oracle on Tue Jun 06, 2017 10:13 pm

Lemon brought up some great stats and an interesting tradeoff. However, that tradeoff extends beyond KCP. After the success we had in a faster paced game, it's become clear that the entire team benefits from that vs the two man game of Reggie & Drummond.

IMO, Reggie needs to expand his game to play both styles, because while we had a lot of success in the regular season, we will need an effective half court game in the playoffs. There needs to be player and coaching adjustments, SVG can not be let off the hook here.

@Sparma - There have been many articles that show that the decline in KCP's game was directly related to his shoulder injury, timing wise. His performance went down after that. I don't like to use injury as an excuse, if you lace up, we should expect your best or let somebody else play, but we all know that there are other pressures that make players play when they know they're not 100%.

But Ballin has accused me of stubbornly saying KCP improved when he hasn't, but it's not stubborn, I just don't think you define improvement based on a few stats, but look at the whole picture.


As you can see, KCP went down in 2 point percentage and points per game.

But he went up in 3 point percentage, FT percentage and assists per game, which adds 5+ points to his per game total

I look at this and see improvement in the key areas I want to see improvement. I would also like the 2 point percentage to be better, but I saw enough improvement when he was used right to offset that.
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Here's Hoping

Post  BallinD on Tue Jun 06, 2017 8:17 pm

Hey Sparma,

I appreciate your attention to detail.  There are all sorts of stats we can parse, but as Oracle says, the bottom line is if we can't find a S&T partner, I am not willing to let KCP walk for nothing.  But neither do I think we can build a team around him. He plays hard on defense, but the effort does not translate to stopper or anything like that.  It's just Weggie is so bad, we need someone to step up and guard elite PGs and SGs and KCP will step up and try. Why will no one speak the truth on that.  Could that be why he is considered so indispensable, because without someone to guard the Kyrie's and Stephs and Walls of the world, where would we be??

I just know last year in a contract year his FG% (39.9 is down from 42.0), scoring average, 13.8 (down from 14.5, and this in a contract year. Free throws made and attempted are down (154-185 vs 185-228) got to the line a lot less, though he did increase his FT% (.832 vs .811) and his 3pt % (.350 vs .309).  So overall shooting is down, scoring is down, free throw attempts is down and defensive rating is down.


BTW, speaking of defense, Per ESPN:"The 1987-88 Bad Boy Pistons come second, having allowed 7.8 fewer points per 100 possessions than the league average. In other words: Adjusted for competition, Golden State might be the best defensive team ever to advance this far."
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KCP Improvement?

Post  Sparma on Tue Jun 06, 2017 7:08 pm

I don't think a year's numbers necessarily determine whether or not there's been improvement.

My understanding is that by the numbers KCP showed considerable until the All Star game or so, but regressed the last couple of months of the season. If so, what might that mean?

Let's say someone runs a mile at a 7 minute pace average over 3 years, then starts running it at 6 for half a year, then regresses. If he then regresses to running the mile at the old 7 minute pace, I'd say real improvement has occurred, even though the regression stands in need of explanation. In KCP's case, maybe Lemonpen's explanation accounts for part of that regression.

If I'm understanding BallinD's interpretation though, he's saying that the averages for the year really haven't improved (although maybe the total's are up if KCP played more minutes, took more shots). Even if that how it is with KCP, I wouldn't necessarily conclude that no improvement's occurred. If my miler goes from an established 7 minute average to a 6 minute average for half a year, then to an 8 minute average for half a year, leading to the same ol' 7 minute average on the whole, I'd say real improvement occurred, but also regression. Just looking at the average would be misleading in that case (roughly KCP's), covering over the details that would need to examined both concerning the improvement and the regression. In the case of the miler, I'd think of injury or just getting physically worn down as explanations. Both half year performances would be quite real; just focusing on the average would obscure what's going on in such a case.

In short, maybe KCP really did improve (as Oracle and Lemonpen contend) even though BallinD's right that his averages are in line with the past.

Having written all that, I finally bothered to check KCP's stats. Interesting. Some up, some down compared to the previous season. Focusing on the 36 minute stats for the sake of comparison, he's really brought PF's down over the course of 4 seasons. The big jump forward I see is in assists, up 50% over last season, which was his previous high. His FG% went up his first seasons, then down this year. 3P% up this season, but just a tick high than his 2nd season. Rebounding and blocks, remarkably stable for his career. Same with steals, except (!?) that they were highest his first season.

Ok, having studied the numbers a bit, I feel comfortable reiterating my mediating hypothesis that he really did improve in that he established a higher level of play for a significant amount of time, even though BallinD make a solid point that his averages for the year don't indicate clear improvement [again, for me, with the exception of the assists increasing significantly].

Hard for me to see that adding up to a max contract, but I'm going to be shocked if the Pistons don't pay him a market level contract (18-20 mil?). Again, the Pistons find themselves in a tough spot, where it's hard to see a great outcome.
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Well

Post  lemonpen on Tue Jun 06, 2017 5:11 pm

deusXango wrote:
lemonpen wrote:JR Smith, was once considered a "low bball IQ" player, and rightly so.  He now wears a championship ring.  If there were ever a poster child for change....   Let's not be so quick to judge KCP.
With all due respect Lemon, did JR Smith ever command a max contract and did he ever threaten to pose an excessive CAP threat for any team he played for? Yes the "dummy" has a ring, but have you noticed the dumbest of them all (JaVele McGhee) is about to join the "Dumb Champions Club?"lol

For the record, I like KCP and Drummond, but the money issues that has arisen by keeping players like Reggie Jackson and Jon Leuer on the roster has created many fans (myself included) to look at the team and it's needs to contend, and make painful decisions. Drummond and KCP are Pistons from the beginning of their careers, and are valuable to us today; that's where our (my) loyalty lies. Jackson and Leuer both received paydays from us that they wouldn't have received anywhere else; they're both crapshoots of the future and my loyalty to them ends at the cashiers window. There's a market for Drummond and KCP, but the trade value for Jackson and Leuer has gone down...two of the top four contracts the Pistons have!

Guys,

I believe this is a case where it is unfair to rate a player on the entirety of his seasons performance. A look at his 2 / 3 / 5 man lineup numbers yell out that every starter has been significantly hampered by REGGIE JACKSON. I point to 2 stats that offer an indication of how KCPs role changed after RJax return.

Before: KCP averaged 3.1 assists/gm in Nov; After: KCP averaged 2.9/2.8/2.5/1.9/1.5 assists/gm/month in that order.

Before: 41% of KCPs fga were 3 pointers; After: 48%/47%/49%/49%/61% of his fga/gm/month were treys, again in that order.


Upon Reggies return the starting SG became a steadily decreasing part of the offense. IMO the argument isn't whether to pay Pope, it is whether to keep him at all if we are going to keep Jackson.
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Lemons

Post  BallinD on Tue Jun 06, 2017 3:44 pm

lemonpen wrote:JR Smith, was once considered a "low bball IQ" player, and rightly so.  He now wears a championship ring.  If there were ever a poster child for change....   Let's not be so quick to judge KCP.

Good point, Lemon, but I think we are all hoping and needing KCP to be better for us than JRS.  Career role player, not part of anybody's core.  Career Avg 12.9 ppg, Per 8.11. And isn't it fair to say most likely King James told him/taught him how he needs to play and compete and defend if he wanted to play on his team??  We don't have anywhere near that influence on the Stones.  Who is gonna tell KCP to attack the rack, quit trying to be Kobe in one game, then Michael Curry in the next.  

KCP played 30 games last season in which he scored 10 pts or less.  We need more.


Last edited by BallinD on Tue Jun 06, 2017 4:48 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : oops)
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Who can figure?

Post  deusXango on Tue Jun 06, 2017 2:56 pm

lemonpen wrote:JR Smith, was once considered a "low bball IQ" player, and rightly so.  He now wears a championship ring.  If there were ever a poster child for change....   Let's not be so quick to judge KCP.
With all due respect Lemon, did JR Smith ever command a max contract and did he ever threaten to pose an excessive CAP threat for any team he played for? Yes the "dummy" has a ring, but have you noticed the dumbest of them all (JaVele McGhee) is about to join the "Dumb Champions Club?"lol

For the record, I like KCP and Drummond, but the money issues that has arisen by keeping players like Reggie Jackson and Jon Leuer on the roster has created many fans (myself included) to look at the team and it's needs to contend, and make painful decisions. Drummond and KCP are Pistons from the beginning of their careers, and are valuable to us today; that's where our (my) loyalty lies. Jackson and Leuer both received paydays from us that they wouldn't have received anywhere else; they're both crapshoots of the future and my loyalty to them ends at the cashiers window. There's a market for Drummond and KCP, but the trade value for Jackson and Leuer has gone down...two of the top four contracts the Pistons have!
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Great post BallinD..."those with eyes, let them see."

Post  deusXango on Tue Jun 06, 2017 2:34 pm

[quote="BallinD"]DX I like Jackson's pedigree and leadership.  From what I have seen of his game, he has a nice feel for the game and fluidity, BBIQ.  He looks like a Grant Hill lite, though not as athletic.  Nice little lane floater and good form on his shot.  He is a winner and a champion and though he is a bit older, that is not scary.  What about the knock that he is a tweener.  Well, so is Donovan Mitchell, so there is that. Right BallinD...how old was Dennis Rodman when the Pistons drafted him and how long did he play? John Salley was drafted in the 1st round, but "The Worm" was clearly the superior player, IMHO. Now we have a chance to begin to get well, but SVG's lazy, indecisive ass, chooses to pass on the opportunity. Pathetic.  

I think this draft has answers for a lot of teams, including the Pistons.  So many players and so few picks.  Get us another pick Stan and let's see what we can get in a package for Leuer and maybe Morris, though I do like Morris's fight and Pistons DNA. Again I applaud your insight that we need an additional pick or two to start building for the future. If SVG and his acolytes could/would see beyond their collective noses, they'd realize that this is one of the franchises that has a leg up on the crucial developmental stages of being a viable contender in the next 2-4 years i.e. the Bucks, the Timberwolves, the Celtics, and yes, the 76ers! We've got a great, young, core that if guided properly, could be at the top of the east! The operative word here is guided, not nitpicked over or impatient with.


No, to trading Tobias. S&T KCP and sign Bullock and Beno.
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Example of One

Post  lemonpen on Tue Jun 06, 2017 2:08 pm

JR Smith, was once considered a "low bball IQ" player, and rightly so. He now wears a championship ring. If there were ever a poster child for change.... Let's not be so quick to judge KCP.
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Pedigree

Post  BallinD on Tue Jun 06, 2017 12:26 pm

DX I like Jackson's pedigree and leadership. From what I have seen of his game, he has a nice feel for the game and fluidity, BBIQ. He looks like a Grant Hill lite, though not as athletic. Nice little lane floater and good form on his shot. He is a winner and a champion and though he is a bit older, that is not scary. What about the knock that he is a tweener. Well, so is Donovan Mitchell, so there is that.

I think this draft has answers for a lot of teams, including the Pistons. So many players and so few picks. Get us another pick Stan and let's see what we can get in a package for Leuer and maybe Morris, though I do like Morris's fight and Pistons DNA.

No, to trading Tobias. S&T KCP and sign Bullock and Beno.
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How can fans find reasons to ignore this players attributes for the team they say they're pulling for?

Post  deusXango on Mon Jun 05, 2017 11:05 pm

Leading scorer for an NCAA champion.

ACC player of the year.

Consensus first-team All-America.

North Carolina swingman Justin Jackson doesn’t  need resumé filler before the June 22 NBA draft
Shocked
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Re: FORUM

Post  deusXango on Mon Jun 05, 2017 11:01 pm

BallinD wrote:
Oracle wrote:
@Ballin - I just don't get the Justin Jackson love, he reminds me of Stanley, a guy that you can't figure out his position in the NBA. Too weak to be a SF, to slow to be a SG spells a tweener that takes an ass whooping nightly, IMO. But I could be wrong, just ask Phillip who was all over Booker and I thought Stanley was the stuff!  He may be a tweener, but what happened to someone being a ball player.  By some definitions many great players have been and many current good and great players are tweeners:  Barkley, Worm, Draymond, KD, Lebron, Iguodala, Porzingis, Tobias, Iverson, McCollum, Antetetokoumpo, Crowder, to name a few.  So what!  a baller balls!  But true, he is a question mark, like all prospects, so I agree with that.  
Great rebuttal BallinD, and with examples to make your case, which very few others don't do. Jackson is a proven ball player on his level of competition and can be KCP's replacement in the starting unit, whereas the other popular prospects are destined to be role playing bench players.
BTW, I know you hate to read articles that don't support your thinking, but there was one recently that is of interest: Why the Detroit Pistons should pay Kentavious Caldwell-Pope, where they compare two players, read the article to see who the players are.

It would be great if KCP could have a development curve like Bradley Beal.  Last year was a regression, though, not an improvement for KCP, just a fact, we went over that already, but you keep stubbornly saying he improved.  But, here's hoping he can get back on track!
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Re: FORUM

Post  cool breeze on Mon Jun 05, 2017 9:56 pm

Oracle wrote:@Phillip - I really like Mitchell, 6'3 with a freaking 6'10 wingspan??? This dude is the perimeter defender we need! Imagine him, KCP and Stanley Johnson defending, points for the opposing team will become scarce. If Stanley can boost his scoring, we're looking at near Bad Boys level defense.

@DX - I hear you on Reggie, but, IMO, I think the main team deserves a chance to right the ship. That doesn't mean that we turn down any move for any of them, but if nothing presents itself, I want to see how things progress and make corrections at the Feb deadline. I'm not wedded to this position, but that's how I feel right now, a good argument could move me I'm keeping an open mind.

@Ballin - I just don't get the Justin Jackson love, he reminds me of Stanley, a guy that you can't figure out his position in the NBA. Too weak to be a SF, to slow to be a SG spells a tweener that takes an ass whooping nightly, IMO. But I could be wrong, just ask Phillip who was all over Booker and I thought Stanley was the stuff!

@Don - "What is it that we don't get Oracle. I am concerned about the team offering Pope a new contract for $20 to $25 million dollars for 4 or 5 years. If that deal is done and Pope doesn't improve next season we will be watching him do the same thing for 5 more years". 

Don, nobody can help you with your fears, you have a lot of them relating to this team. You demand that players be loyal and you're the first to run for the exits when you're supposed to be the one to show some. Either accept that this is all totally business or do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

As for your fear that KCP won't improve. This like most of what you've been ranting about lately had no basis in anything rational. You can say that about a lot of players, but KCP has improved every year! Irrational fear is a mother  lol. Amazingly you have no fear believing that guys who haven't even proven they can be NBA players and bench warmers are the next great thing without a shred of evidence... Wow!

BTW, I know you hate to read articles that don't support your thinking, but there was one recently that is of interest: Why the Detroit Pistons should pay Kentavious Caldwell-Pope, where they compare two players, read the article to see who the players are.

http://pistonpowered.com/2017/06/04/detroit-pistons-pay-kentavious-caldwell-pope/ wrote:I want to end this article with a comparison, to help demonstrate the improvements KCP has made, and to look ahead at what we can hope and expect from him next season.

Player A:

Year 1 per game averages: 31.2 minutes, 13.9 points, 41 percent field goal, 38.6 percent three-point, 3.8 rebounds, 2.4 assists, 1.6 turnovers, 0.9 steals

Year 4 per game averages: 31.1 minutes, 17.4 points, 44.9 percent field goal, 38.7 percent three-point, 3.4 rebounds, 2.9 assists, 2 turnovers, 1 steals

Player B:

Year 1 per game averages: 19.8 minutes, 5.9 points, 39.6 percent field goal, 31.9 percent three-point, 2 rebounds, 0.7 assists, 0.4 turnovers, 0.9 steals

Year 4 per game averages: 33.3 minutes, 13.8 points, 39.9 percent field goal, 35 percent three-point, 3.3 rebounds, 2.5 assists, 1.1 turnovers, 1.2 steals
I'm sure none of this will change you, I just hope you can stop being this guy(just a joke)  lol lol lol




I fear death but that is about it Oracle. But I am surprised as to how confident you are about KCP's ability to play right up there with the great players based on how he has played to this point. None of the stats you illustrated spoke of basketball aptitude or basketball IQ. You don't win with low basketball IQ players. He is one of them. He doesn't stand out at all on most nights on the hardwood. He is not a $12 million dollar player so why would the team pay him $20 plus million? Do you want to watch a basement dwelling team? Don't you want to watch players like those who played in the finals last night? Are you satisfied with the way Pope played last season as one of the key players on a horrible team? He was a key player on his college team that consistently lost. Is he a smart winning type player who has proved beyond a reasonable doubt that he is the man like Joe Dumars or Hamilton who will shine on the big stage? We who fear have too many questions. That makes some fans angry. I would rather have fear than be angry with others thoughts.

Our team is going nowhere if you haven't come to that realization yet something is wrong with the way you are watching this team play basketball. You act like an agent that has a vested interest in Pope. You rant that I would rather place my faith on untested players. The reason why that might be true for me is that I haven't determined if The Untested are keepers or not. Pope has played most of the minutes at the 2 guard since he arrived. I don't see any change in his game. He plays all of those minutes based on "coaches decision". He hasn't earned all that playing time. But watching him not earn the playing time say like Avery Johnson who has quickly become a key two way player for Boston, it is silly that you are so strong on KCP. While I might write something saying that I fear the short term future of the Pistons and that I fear Detroit will be doomed by signing another below average player to a contract that should be reserved for an elite player, you get angry like those folks who are out there hunting for potential doubters that our fearless leaders can solve the climate change issue. While I do fear that I will see another dull boring low basketball IQ type team again next season, would you please kick in some of your hard earned money and take on part of KCP's contract to free up some money for the Pistons? Can that be done. The supporters kick in some money on the side for their favorite players. That money is not charged against the CAP. Now remember this was KCP's big year. He put everything he had into that season. He might not be as motivated next season. I fear that of course which is very wrong as you pointed out. I also fear that PT Barnum's relatives who are now making a living in politics will swindle tax payers even more as they declare an even bigger war on climate change. They are ready for battle on the backs of those young couples who have small children and obey all the laws but can't get their kids braces because the braces must be sacrificed for the greater good of reducing CO2 gases .02% in 90 years as per the Paris accords. It that big treaty agreement as big as the surrender of of Germany in WW2? If only the believers would agree to pay more money for the cause they believe in so those families can keep more of their own money that they worked hard for. Common sense doesn't always win out. Middle class Americans have been paying for the great fight on the climate in 3rd world countries instead of buying a home or the kids braces. Are they pissed off about it? I know a lot of young parents who are pissed. They want to pay less taxes. So the hunters are out there trying to identify who those folks who want lower taxes. They need to be punished for doubting. I fear for them Oracle. Families are in big debt and struggling just like the Pistons will be after they sign Pope.

I can just turn off the Pistons like so many old loyal fans have already done long ago. I do not get excited about watching Drummond, Jackson and Pope. The Big Three must go! The Big Three must go! Time has expired for the low basketball IQ players. Management must move on and through trial and error get lucky and find some keepers. Those three players are not keepers. But I will say this Oracle. KCP is like several other players on the current roster who cannot find a groove because they are playing with inept point guards and the self designated captain Andre Drummond. I fear they will lose their minds unless management shows them some mercy and finds a trade for them.Pope has played hard. He should get a break and be able to leave this dysfunctional program. As this management team most likely will blow their chance of trading Drummond this summer, I suggest that SVG go out and land a like minded old pro who bamboozled Joe Dumars years ago. Yes Stan needs a power forward who can shoot the 3 ball. That is all he talks about. So why not give Charlie V another shot. Imagine what the defensive stats would look like. Some stat guy who works for the players agent could come up with something positive much like those stats you brought out about KCP. Jackson, Drummond and Charlie V together. Imagine how great that would be. Let's do it!

Based on the way this team played last season, no player on the current team is worth more than 6 million a year. Show me your game. Then you get paid. Stop the foolishness Stan Van Gundy. The franchise is ruined. Find a way to make it right. Move all the key starters who managed to get their butts kicked almost every game in the first and third quarters. The entire team needs to be turned over and we need a new coach and GM if that doesn't happen. I am waiting for the climate in Piston land to change for the better. How many dreadful years have we suffered though? I count last years playoff appearance as a dreadful season as well. The same players have just become a little worse yet of course we must worry about losing one so we have to pay whatever they demand. The true believers demand this. That is why management will sign Pope. They fear the fan backlash if Pope is not signed. They fear the fans might wonder why Pope got all of those minutes during the time when he was so ineffective you didn't notice he was on the court. The amount doesn't matter so don't talk about it or the fans might get angry. Is this what George Orwell wrote about?

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Re: FORUM

Post  BallinD on Mon Jun 05, 2017 7:07 pm

Oracle wrote:
@Ballin - I just don't get the Justin Jackson love, he reminds me of Stanley, a guy that you can't figure out his position in the NBA. Too weak to be a SF, to slow to be a SG spells a tweener that takes an ass whooping nightly, IMO. But I could be wrong, just ask Phillip who was all over Booker and I thought Stanley was the stuff!  He may be a tweener, but what happened to someone being a ball player.  By some definitions many great players have been and many current good and great players are tweeners:  Barkley, Worm, Draymond, KD, Lebron, Iguodala, Porzingis, Tobias, Iverson, McCollum, Antetetokoumpo, Crowder, to name a few.  So what!  a baller balls!  But true, he is a question mark, like all prospects, so I agree with that.  

BTW, I know you hate to read articles that don't support your thinking, but there was one recently that is of interest: Why the Detroit Pistons should pay Kentavious Caldwell-Pope, where they compare two players, read the article to see who the players are.

It would be great if KCP could have a development curve like Bradley Beal.  Last year was a regression, though, not an improvement for KCP, just a fact, we went over that already, but you keep stubbornly saying he improved.  But, here's hoping he can get back on track!
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