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Stan and Gores are taking Detroit back to Expansion team status.

Post  Phil1980boy on Sat Jul 01, 2017 5:10 pm

Stan ability to go out and find the most average, basic, ball player and spend 21 million is amazing to me.

Jody Meeks, Martin, Gray, Galloway. And we guarantee these below average ball players also. lol

The Pistons are MAXED out and we AVERAGE! We spending 21 Million on AVERAGE!!

Come on man. Take some cash and trade into the top of the second round and try to steal A F.U.C.K.I.N.G ball player. DAMN!

How about not giving 21 million to Galloway and package some of these average ball player together and get into the lower, first round and get A kid with potential??

I'm starting to see that Stan doesn't believe in the Detroit Pistons as A franchise or A brand.

This is what happens when you don't have A TRUE DETROIT PISTONS Type of guy running the Organization. If all Stan is going to do is make AVERAGE moves, then I say FIRE Him now and bring in Billups or even bring back Joe Dumars. Go out and get Isiah Thomas. Somebody who knows that it's possible to do more then be average in DETROIT!




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Galloway

Post  Sparma on Sat Jul 01, 2017 4:35 pm

Seems like a lot of money for a 3rd stringer. Like BallinD, I'd wondered if there might be something else afoot. Earlier, the idea was floated of trading Reggie for Afflalo, then waiving him rather than (?) picking up the team option on him. I'm guessing that needed to be done before July 1. Without another move, I'd think we'd be locked into a minimum salary 3rd center, maybe along with supplementary minutes from Ellenson and Leuer.

If all's as it appears now, we'll have a deep squad! And the playoffs just became more likely since midnight, with the East looking pretty open beyond the top teams.

BallinD wrote:Pistons just signed the electric former first round pick (wait-a-minute, Undrafted) Langston Galloway.  Clearly, he is an upgrade over the scrub Beno Udrih.  Way to upgrade the roster and spend Gores money SVG! Man, I'm getting excited.  Weggie fans tremble!

But seriously, could this possibly be part of a one-two move?  Could we actually make a real move to relieve some of the dead weight off our "loaded" roster?
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Look Out Cleveland

Post  BallinD on Sat Jul 01, 2017 3:54 pm

Pistons just signed the electric former first round pick (wait-a-minute, Undrafted) Langston Galloway. Clearly, he is an upgrade over the scrub Beno Udrih. Way to upgrade the roster and spend Gores money SVG! Man, I'm getting excited. Weggie fans tremble!

But seriously, could this possibly be part of a one-two move? Could we actually make a real move to relieve some of the dead weight off our "loaded" roster?
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Housekeeping & Summer League

Post  Oracle on Sat Jul 01, 2017 2:08 pm

DX, you misunderstood me about injury, I wasn't talking about injury last season, I was saying that we're capable of close to 50 wins next season if we're injury free.

KCP: The ability to offer KCP 5 years is important because the total amount may only change slightly from a 4 year contract, meaning the per year amount would be less.

I'm hoping we can get him in the 18-20M range, which is clearly an over pay unless he continues to improve. It's the smart bet, but any higher demands or offers would require the team to possibly make hard decisions, which I freely admit are above my pay grade.

Moves: Looks like they found a backup PG just under the MLE in Galloway. This could be another nice find for SVG as he's only 25 and shoots 39% from deep. Not quite like OKC picking up Paul George, but hopefully good for us by adding another shooter. BTW, good shooting is contagious!

Summer: I'm really looking forward to watching our youngsters play. I don't have unrealistic expectations, but I do expect hard work and smart ball, I don't demand everybody's shot to be falling every game.
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Unequal "match"

Post  Sparma on Sat Jul 01, 2017 9:48 am

It was that 5th year that I wasn't thinking of, Deus. Thanks. If the home (Pistons) team is obliged to offer the 5 year "max" when the potentially "new" (Nets) team offers their 4 year "max" then it's matching and then some.

That terminological issue aside, I agree that Detroit would be better off giving KCP a 4 year deal than 5 year deal if they could. Sounds like they can't, if they're "matching" a "max" offer sheet.

With an unmistakable "max" player the home team might ordinarily be happy to have that 5th year.


deusXango wrote:
Sparma wrote:What would Detroit pay KCP if they matched a (hypothetical) Nets offer to pay him the "max"?

On the one hand, there shouldn't be an issue in that the max is the max, so that's what they'd pay him.

But, on the other hand, isn't the "max" that the Nets are allowed to offer an incoming player less than what the Pistons can offer their own player?  If so, in matching the Nets offer, the Pistons would pay KCP less than the "max" that they could offer him independently.  Or in paying KCP the hometown max, they'd be paying him more than the Nets could possibly offer.

Or do the different max possibilities not figure in at the level of RFAs?  I'm not finding a straightforward answer, but I'm guessing I'm missing something obvious.  Probably a non-issue, but one that has me confused.
If the Nets sign KCP to an offer sheet for their max and we go beyond simply matching their offer, we've bid against ourselves; I've read so much local media nonsense concerning twisted CAP rules that I'm confused also...the Nets signs KCP for 4 years, we feel obliged to sign KCP to a 5 year deal...I think that's ridiculous.
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Re: FORUM

Post  cool breeze on Sat Jul 01, 2017 9:16 am

Sparma wrote:What would Detroit pay KCP if they matched a (hypothetical) Nets offer to pay him the "max"?

On the one hand, there shouldn't be an issue in that the max is the max, so that's what they'd pay him.

But, on the other hand, isn't the "max" that the Nets are allowed to offer an incoming player less than what the Pistons can offer their own player? If so, in matching the Nets offer, the Pistons would pay KCP less than the "max" that they could offer him independently. Or in paying KCP the hometown max, they'd be paying him more than the Nets could possibly offer.

Or do the different max possibilities not figure in at the level of RFAs? I'm not finding a straightforward answer, but I'm guessing I'm missing something obvious. Probably a non-issue, but one that has me confused.

The idea that Detroit management would agree to a Cap busting deal with Pope would prove that they are nothing but a bunch of buffoons. The Pistons might now make the playoffs with or without Pope. If they make the playoffs now that there are no other stars in the Eastern conference but Labron James, Detroit would still be considered an easy out in the playoffs. (Hayward could still come to Boston to make two tier one players). The Pistons might win more games than last season now that some of the better players will no longer play as much against the Pistons, but what does it all mean? It seems that Pope is now in super star status without having to play better than below average during his rookie contract. He started on a bad team and ended his rookie contract on a bad team. He didn't make the team into a winner. But being there is no positive news with the exception of the the 3 young players who won't get to play now that Detroit will be a borderline playoff team by default with their competition all doing the right thing with complete rebuilds, Piston management will rise to the occasion and get their man for double or triple his worth. Then Detroit will be stuck with 4 bad contracts and possibly 5. Drummond, Pope, Jackson, Leuer and Boban will be the core players as SVG established a history last season of basing playing time based on contracts not performance. Could that effect team chemistry? Did that have an impact on the horrible team chemistry this team had last season? The funny thing is that Detroit most likely would make the playoffs now without Pope. The financial picture would be much brighter next summer too especially if the team could move either Drummond or Jackson or both. Base Pope's value with Shaun Livingston or even Tony Snell who I believe is a superior player to Pope.

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Re: FORUM

Post  cool breeze on Sat Jul 01, 2017 8:53 am

deusXango wrote:
Sparma wrote:What would Detroit pay KCP if they matched a (hypothetical) Nets offer to pay him the "max"?

On the one hand, there shouldn't be an issue in that the max is the max, so that's what they'd pay him.

But, on the other hand, isn't the "max" that the Nets are allowed to offer an incoming player less than what the Pistons can offer their own player?  If so, in matching the Nets offer, the Pistons would pay KCP less than the "max" that they could offer him independently.  Or in paying KCP the hometown max, they'd be paying him more than the Nets could possibly offer.

Or do the different max possibilities not figure in at the level of RFAs?  I'm not finding a straightforward answer, but I'm guessing I'm missing something obvious.  Probably a non-issue, but one that has me confused.
If the Nets sign KCP to an offer sheet for their max and we go beyond simply matching their offer, we've bid against ourselves; I've read so much local media nonsense concerning twisted CAP rules that I'm confused also...the Nets signs KCP for 4 years, we feel obliged to sign KCP to a 5 year deal...I think that's ridiculous.

dX it appears that Shaun Livingston will sign a 3 year contract with Golden State for $24 mil. He played great in the finals. Snell's deal with the Bucks is lower than I expected and nowhere in the range talked about with Pope and he shot 44& from beyond the 3 point line while improving greatly during the last part of the season. Maybe with Detroit's management, if you don't want to play there management will offer more than you are worth. But everything is speculation to this point but based on Pope's play and what other players are agreeing to, the Pistons should not match a crazy offer and Pope should sign for much less than his agent as advertised but sign for a shorter term deal perhaps. The top tier players are getting fantastic money like the injury prone Blake Griffin but what about Curry's alleged agreement while a guy like Livingston will agree to a deal for less than Leuer is getting. By the way, who was bidding against Detroit when they made those offers to Leuer, Boban? Maybe free agents just look at the roster and say pay me double or triple if I go to some place like Detroit now. Players will take less to have fun playing basketball.

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Oracle...Don, what's the deal?

Post  deusXango on Sat Jul 01, 2017 1:25 am

Sparma wrote:What would Detroit pay KCP if they matched a (hypothetical) Nets offer to pay him the "max"?

On the one hand, there shouldn't be an issue in that the max is the max, so that's what they'd pay him.

But, on the other hand, isn't the "max" that the Nets are allowed to offer an incoming player less than what the Pistons can offer their own player?  If so, in matching the Nets offer, the Pistons would pay KCP less than the "max" that they could offer him independently.  Or in paying KCP the hometown max, they'd be paying him more than the Nets could possibly offer.

Or do the different max possibilities not figure in at the level of RFAs?  I'm not finding a straightforward answer, but I'm guessing I'm missing something obvious.  Probably a non-issue, but one that has me confused.
If the Nets sign KCP to an offer sheet for their max and we go beyond simply matching their offer, we've bid against ourselves; I've read so much local media nonsense concerning twisted CAP rules that I'm confused also...the Nets signs KCP for 4 years, we feel obliged to sign KCP to a 5 year deal...I think that's ridiculous.
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Please don't tell me that Piston management has decided that we all will see more of the same

Post  cool breeze on Sat Jul 01, 2017 12:27 am

What if there is no max offer for Pope after all this hype? Then Piston management can pat themselves on the back and sign him for almost max value. They did their job will be the story line. But in the end it will be just another mistake because they will still pay him for more than they can find a buyer for after the results are the same next season.

It seems now that the cat is out of the bag. Detroit management knows they have botched things so badly that none of their players who make big money are marketable. So they will continue to keep the team in financial handcuffs after signing Pope but SVG will bank on not losing his job because he hopes that several current playoff teams have thrown in the towel so to speak and will now rebuild because those GM will not settle like our management is happy to do. Detroit will play much the same way which is horrible. The kids will not see the floor much. Pope will play most of the 2 guard minutes. SVG will make up excuses to keep Kennard and Johnson in the dog house. Ellenson will not be strong enough to play defense so he will be at the end of the bench too.

But Detroit will make the playoffs in the Eastern conference with a losing record. The team will lose 4 straight and then everyone will be happy. As Stan said a few weeks ago that he likes his roster and thinks he is well covered at every position. After all there is nothing left to do but sign Pope. How exciting SVG fooled me for awhile. I thought he might do the right thing. Sorry Lute, Stanley and Henry you will all have to wait until SVG is fired.

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Capology Question

Post  Sparma on Fri Jun 30, 2017 11:46 pm

What would Detroit pay KCP if they matched a (hypothetical) Nets offer to pay him the "max"?

On the one hand, there shouldn't be an issue in that the max is the max, so that's what they'd pay him.

But, on the other hand, isn't the "max" that the Nets are allowed to offer an incoming player less than what the Pistons can offer their own player? If so, in matching the Nets offer, the Pistons would pay KCP less than the "max" that they could offer him independently. Or in paying KCP the hometown max, they'd be paying him more than the Nets could possibly offer.

Or do the different max possibilities not figure in at the level of RFAs? I'm not finding a straightforward answer, but I'm guessing I'm missing something obvious. Probably a non-issue, but one that has me confused.
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I ain't making no predictions because of who's rolling the dice

Post  deusXango on Fri Jun 30, 2017 11:10 pm

Oracle wrote:This team is loaded!

Doom & Gloom is an easy sell if you don't look at the underlying fundamentals, or understand the game from a players perspective. No, you don't need to have played organized ball, because smart people can understand this from watching enough organized ball. How about bias, prejudice, and unfair favoritism? Why was the developing chemistry between Harris and Morris suddenly broken up? They were as important to the success of the 2015-16 campaign as Reggie. Why isn't that discussed by the smart people who watched this team? They weren't responsible for the teams decline when Reggie returned!

This guy isn't saying that as forcefully as I am, but he's laying the foundation with some very good insight into what happened last year and in my opinion, won't happen this year barring the usual qualifier... injury. Oracle, injury wasn't a qualifier as much as an excuse...the team was overcoming that singular injury, but as the season wore on, there were other injuries. The injury that's talked about to justify that horrific 37-45 record was the one to Reggie.

https://www.detroitbadboys.com/2017/6/30/15897564/its-all-about-reggie-jackson-nba-pistons-offseason wrote:Basketball, it appears, is a team sport. One in which the players on the court have an affect on each other. Not just physically, but mentally…emotionally.

When Reggie Jackson came back, he was clearly not himself. Industrial Light & Magic did a better job impersonating Peter Cushing in Star Wars: Rogue One than 2017 Reggie did impersonating 2016 Reggie.

He was the Pistons’ thermal exhaust port. And the Pistons’ Death Star got blowed up.

[End of the Star Wars references. Promise.]

It’s not as though the players who played so well during that stretch suddenly forgot how to play team ball, or how to shoot or play defense. Their play was heavily influenced by the starting PG who returned to the lineup thinking he was capable of playing at the same level as before (Spoiler: he wasn’t).

Reggie shot too much. He missed too much. He passed too little. Defended even less.

And his play negatively affected virtually every other Piston on the court.
If the great Stan Van Gundy doesn't change his approach to coaching this team, it'll happen again! There were so many poor decisions made, other than not removing Reggie Jackson from the starting lineup when it became apparent he'd lost his mojo (about 10 games to the casual watcher, but to the trained professional eye, like the one SVG claims to have, it should've been less), but continuing to have the non-shooting team we had, hoist up 3's like his Orlando Magic team, when it was clear we were more effective as a "run & gun" team that spread the scoring out. Yeah, everybody should've gotten more touches, like they were before Reggie's return, because Reggie isn't a consistent high volume scorer and shame on Van Gundy for having a problem with that being said.

I ask again, if scoring PG's have taken the place of the traditional pass first PG, why not groom Luke to be our PG? He's clearly intelligent and not given to selfishness...he has the size, skills, and handles to make the investment in KCP worthwhile. Are we afraid that if Luke is played in a prominent role, he may be the surprise ROY? We can't see it because he was drafted at #12 and SVG wanted to throw it away in favor of a "seasoned vet?" If he shows out in Summer League, proves himself in the hidden pre-season practices, he should be given a chance to begin running this team, if for no other reason, to avoid a major blow-up and realize just how loaded this team is!
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Hope?

Post  Sparma on Fri Jun 30, 2017 11:07 pm

I enjoyed the piece by Hypnowheel at DBB that you cited, Oracle.  I like how he combined his self-proclaimed optimism with unblinking realism about what happened once Reggie returned: "You see, when the guy running the offense looks to shoot first, second and third…and shoots very poorly, and fails to put in any effort on defense, well…guys get upset. They start wondering why they’re working so hard to get open if no one’s going to pass to them. They start wondering why they should bust their asses on defense when Reggie’s holding the door open for the Jeff Teague layup drill.

Some players make their teammates better. Bad Reggie made his teammates worse."

Are we all in agreement that the team wins more than 37 next year?  Of course, we have several months to see how things shake out before making firm predictions.  And I continue to be struck by our low ceiling, barring some unexpected very marked improvement.

Still, there's hope when an organization repeatedly makes sensible decisions, even though the anointed cornerstones haven't emerged as the hoped for stars.  

It's small fries moving into the FA period, I guess, but I came away impressed with Pierre Jackson as 3rd PG candidate reading about him at DBB and watching some highlights.  He twice averaged 29 ppg in the summer league and is a good passer and shooter!?  And there was a nice write up at DBB about Michael Tobey as possible third C.  Both to be featured on our summer league team.





Oracle wrote:This team is loaded!

Doom & Gloom is an easy sell if you don't look at the underlying fundamentals, or understand the game from a players perspective. No, you don't need to have played organized ball, because smart people can understand this from watching enough organized ball.

This guy isn't saying that as forcefully as I am, but he's laying the foundation with some very good insight into what happened last year and in my opinion, won't happen this year barring the usual qualifier... injury.

https://www.detroitbadboys.com/2017/6/30/15897564/its-all-about-reggie-jackson-nba-pistons-offseason wrote:Basketball, it appears, is a team sport. One in which the players on the court have an affect on each other. Not just physically, but mentally…emotionally.

When Reggie Jackson came back, he was clearly not himself. Industrial Light & Magic did a better job impersonating Peter Cushing in Star Wars: Rogue One than 2017 Reggie did impersonating 2016 Reggie.

He was the Pistons’ thermal exhaust port. And the Pistons’ Death Star got blowed up.

[End of the Star Wars references. Promise.]

It’s not as though the players who played so well during that stretch suddenly forgot how to play team ball, or how to shoot or play defense. Their play was heavily influenced by the starting PG who returned to the lineup thinking he was capable of playing at the same level as before (Spoiler: he wasn’t).

Reggie shot too much. He missed too much. He passed too little. Defended even less.

And his play negatively affected virtually every other Piston on the court.


Last edited by Sparma on Fri Jun 30, 2017 11:14 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Close to 50 wins next season, and that's not optimistic

Post  Oracle on Fri Jun 30, 2017 9:22 pm

This team is loaded!

Doom & Gloom is an easy sell if you don't look at the underlying fundamentals, or understand the game from a players perspective. No, you don't need to have played organized ball, because smart people can understand this from watching enough organized ball.

This guy isn't saying that as forcefully as I am, but he's laying the foundation with some very good insight into what happened last year and in my opinion, won't happen this year barring the usual qualifier... injury.

https://www.detroitbadboys.com/2017/6/30/15897564/its-all-about-reggie-jackson-nba-pistons-offseason wrote:Basketball, it appears, is a team sport. One in which the players on the court have an affect on each other. Not just physically, but mentally…emotionally.

When Reggie Jackson came back, he was clearly not himself. Industrial Light & Magic did a better job impersonating Peter Cushing in Star Wars: Rogue One than 2017 Reggie did impersonating 2016 Reggie.

He was the Pistons’ thermal exhaust port. And the Pistons’ Death Star got blowed up.

[End of the Star Wars references. Promise.]

It’s not as though the players who played so well during that stretch suddenly forgot how to play team ball, or how to shoot or play defense. Their play was heavily influenced by the starting PG who returned to the lineup thinking he was capable of playing at the same level as before (Spoiler: he wasn’t).

Reggie shot too much. He missed too much. He passed too little. Defended even less.

And his play negatively affected virtually every other Piston on the court.
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Stan Van Gundy's Watches Kennard and Johnson with a careful eye so why didn't he ever do that with Drummond???

Post  cool breeze on Fri Jun 30, 2017 8:54 pm

I always thought that Luke would not have trouble on the defensive end not saying that it won't be difficult for him in his rookie season. But defense is a mindset more than anything else. If you have smarts and average speed you can be successful on the defensive end. It is just that a lot of NBA players came from AAU ball where coaching is suspect and no emphasis is placed on defense. AAU is a place to showcase offensive skills and that is why so many basketball players nowadays have a big adjustment to make when they enter a good college program.

So what is up with these comments by SVG about Kennard. He is further along than I thought. I don't want to pick Stan apart because he gives the rookies notice that they will have to be able to compete on defense to get playing time. This is a good thing and he is doing them a real favor. Maybe Stan really gets on young players he believes have the ability to become really good. If he is around certain players he knows have limited upside potential maybe he gives them a pass believing it is a waste of time working with them. If he was not involved in the decision to trade them in the first place maybe he does not have the emotion he might if Stan was the guy who believed in the first place that the guy he drafted had great potential. I think that may be why he has been so hard on Stanley Johnson in the past. He has done ti before with players where he coached in Miami and Orlando. Most of those players really speak highly of SVG today.

What I wonder about is this relationship Stan has with Andre. How can he like the big guy as a basketball player? Why does Stan give Drummond a free pass. Drummond is the one player who is worse than Jackson on defense. That says a lot. Maybe in practice Stan Does get on Drummond but maybe he thinks getting on a sensitive man like Drummond might bite him in the ass. Maybe he worries that Drummond would pull a Howard meltdown. I have only seen one other player wear the Piston uniform who cared less about improvement on defense than Andre Drummond. That player of course is Charlie V. Drummond is another bigger version of Charlie V in my books. The most plausible answer for SVG's silence on Drummond defensive deficiencies is that Stan knows in his heart that Drummond doesn't have and never will have a clue what is going on when he is on defense. Perhaps the coaching staff has instructed Andre to avoid foul trouble instead of trying to play hard on defense. If he tries to play hard on defense like he did when he was younger it always got him a spot on the bench early on because of the whistle. That must be it. Drummond doesn't bother to work on his defensive game at all. So how in the end can this man ever provide what the team needs most? How dysfunctional is that relating to the front office planning for the future. We have no shot blocker. There is not hope we will ever get a shot blocker if Drummond serves out his contract. Has the front office gone mad?

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Exactly who runs today's basketball media?

Post  cool breeze on Fri Jun 30, 2017 12:56 pm

Like in politics there are new sub contractors with connections that work for both sides popping up all the time. They spin wild stories and somehow get those stories on television and newspapers. Who does that most relating to NBA basketball? Does anyone not know that lawyer agents run the NBA? If they control which teams gets the best players then why does the NBA pay for such a large front office team? Large firms must pass out a lot of under the table money to have their way. But what is insulting is how the lap dog reporters continue to put out their story lines? For a lot of us who can make judgments based on what we have personally witnessed on the court, it is mind numbing to read some of this nonsense that is offered as news.

I for one am tired of hearing anything additional about KCP's value and how important he is to the Piston organization. I have witnessed an entirely average player starting for the Pistons now for several years. He has become somewhat better but never has Pope ever been a player who stood out as a core piece. If you say something enough times it seems that whatever the message a lot of people start believing it is true. News flash from a rational human being. KCP is not a lock down defender. Notice that JR Smith who is a good defender will not command the money that Pope's agent has hyped up so much relating to Pope. Is Pope as good of a defender as Smith? Can Pope hit the 3 ball as well as Smith. Does Pope haver the basketball IQ of JR Smith? Now I am really not a JR Smith fan. But it has become insane the way some press people are reporting that it is a done deal that Pope will get a max offer from the Pistons. If the Pistons give Pope a $20mil offer then I have lost all respect for this front office. Avery Bradley came into the league as a player who established himself as an outstanding defender. Then in just one summer, Bradley worked 12 or more hours a day every day on his offensive game and it really showed big time in the playoffs this season. He has a high basketball IQ. Listen to him talk when he is being interviewed. Bradley is a smart man who has a high chance of becoming great. So with this said, what is Boston's Danny Ainge doing? He is telling the world that Boston will offer a max contract to Bradley? Bradley is in a different league from Pope. There is just no comparison. If you watched Bradley defend and play offense against Washington in the playoffs than you would get what I am saying. At no time has Pope ever been able to stop dribble penetration when defending Wall or Beal. Both players can do whatever they want to do or get to any spot they want to get much like Anthony Davis does with Andre Drummond. Both Pope and Drummond are completely ineffective against top tier players. If Stan Van Gundy doesn't admit that this is true than he has no business making any decisions for the Pistons. How much more risk will Piston management make relating to over evaluating their players? How many more mistakes will be made and then once a player is given the contract Piston management turns a blind eye to how they destroy the Piston team because they will play regardless of how they play. This is my main gripe with Stan Van Gundy's style of management.

Notice the article with the interview with Stanley Johnson that appeared earlier today anyone? Johnson is in Orlando working his butt off trying to get better. But he confessed that another purpose he went their other than help Ellenson and Luke get ready for the competition was to make an attempt to gain a perspective with the Piston front office. It appears that nobody has taken the time to tell Johnson what their long term plan is for this team. Maybe he has been in the dark because nobody communicated with him. I do know that Johnson's previous coach, Sean Miller is great at giving each player exactly what he expects from each new player when they first arrive at Arizona. Each player is given guide or list of expectations the coach has for them and tips on what it will take to full fill the role that has been assigned to that player. You know what is expected and how you can become successful within the system. After watching the Pistons now since SVG arrived I thought at first that he also believed in communicating all the details each player needs so they can find a path of success within his system. Then after the first season it looked like everything was a free for all. It looked like nobody knew their individual role other than maybe Baynes. We knew what his role was for the Pistons. Drummond should have provided the same type of role as Baynes only done it as a starter but Andre was allowed to do his own thing which no coach should approve of but SVG never seemed to notice as he was so excited that as President/GM Stan was successful in signing Drummond to that max contract. Maybe now that Johnson is around Piston management this summer and taking it upon himself to find out what they expect of him because nobody took him under their wing as a 19 year old and then 20 year old, this season will be different. Johnson is a smart young man and said some things in that interview about how important it is to be able to react in game situations and make the right decisions. The speed to the game makes that very difficult to anticipate but Johnson is sharing his discoveries with his young teammates so they all will get better faster. Meanwhile Andre Drummond doesn't know that he doesn't know and is resting. Andre's biggest weakness is his inability to make the right decisions and anticipate quickly as to what the opponent is trying to do when he is on defense. He is oblivious to what he should be working on the most while the recently turned 21 year old Johnson, Ellenson and Kennard are working their butts off in that area. Why should Drummond do it? He has the max contract that he didn't earn. Andre is a pampered baby who has been spoiled by Stan Van Gundy and his coaching staff. Pope still has the same problems that Ellenson, Johnson and Kennard have now and he is a lot older with massive experience in the league. That article on Johnson is very revealing for sure. Not just everyone would do what Johnson is doing now. He wants to play on a better team next season. That is all he cares about.

Is SVG now taking the same approach with Pope as he did with Andre Drummond last summer? Is he going to ignore what happened on the court and buy into the agent press releases about Pope's value? Should he be looking around the league for a better player than Pope to give that max money to like maybe a guy like Bradley if you wait for the proper time? Pope is advertised as a good two way player. Pope is really a below average offensive player and a suspect defender. I say that because Pope does not have the quick feet to stop dribble penetration and he cannot think ahead and anticipate or know the opposing offense well enough to stop much of anything. He gives really good effort but doesn't get the results that one would expect. He needs a lot of help defending Wall, Beal and a host of other top tier players. So who is spinning this story that the reporters write? It can't be Pope's agent can it? And who is sucking it all up? Is it Stan Van Gundy or has he figured out that he should take a pass on KCP this time around? Please take a pass and do not bring back Drummond, Jackson and Pope to play in the same unit together again. It never worked. Those three starters were on the floor when this team floundered the most. The team chemistry will not improve if they continue to play together. Why should anyone have to even say that? Why is there even a discussion about signing Pope to a max contract? Has this management team gone mad or have they come to their senses and already moved on from Pope?

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Youth

Post  Sparma on Thu Jun 29, 2017 10:26 pm

I'm not recommending that you get your hopes up too high, Cool. I don't foresee a total, through thick and thin, about face, but (with BallinD, I think) more of a strategic/ self-preserving/ moderate change of course.

Maybe Ellenson just wasn't ready strengthwise last year and deserved to be confined largely to GR, but it was ridiculous that SVG didn't work Boban in more, already based on his PER with SA & the flashes he (always?) showed when given a chance with the Pistons.

He needs to be able to make the case to Gores at the end of the season, particularly if the record's not so great, that a promising youth movement's afoot. Your man Stanley might be the primary beneficiary, getting -- by SVG's standards -- plenty of opportunities to shine.

It may be cynical on my part to ascribe such motives to SVG, but we'll soon find out. I'm guessing we'll see a more youth oriented Stan, but not to the point of riding it through the rough times. Just not so ridiculously results oriented when the approach taken isn't yielding results. An infusion of energy with Smith, Stanley, Ellenson, Boban, and Kennard could be pretty interesting -- also to Gores -- if and when we dig ourselves into holes early in games as we did so often last year.
cool breeze wrote:
Sparma wrote:Kennard shows enough D after SVG watching to become eligible for rotation minutes?  Maybe so, but I'll predict that in any case SVG will work harder this year to integrate the youth.  In what could well be a decisive year for him, putting all his coaching eggs in the maximizing of wins may not be the way to go with the win total likely to be higher than last year, but still not so impressive for the 4th year of a rebuild.  He's got to show that he's managed to create a nice youth movement with Stanley, Ellenson, and Kennard as the likely beneficiaries.  I foresee a shift, maybe subtle, in his coaching style, with more emphasis on youth.  Might have happened anyway with Johnson and Ellenson, but I see an added incentive this year.  

I hope you are right Sparma. What if SVG makes this decision and stays with it despite some rough moments. He keeps an even keel all season long working hard to help build confidence levels with all three players. As they play together building trust in each other on both ends of the floor could it be that the opposite happens at the end of next season? Is it possible that instead of the Pistons looking tired and defeated for the last two months this team starts to find something special and exciting. The total team wins might not be any better but at the end will the fans want more instead of being happy that the embarrassment and suffering is finally over and we can turn our attention to the real teams that played in the playoffs? All three players, Ellenson, Kennard and Johnson have HEART. They are excited about playing basketball instead of just showing up. SVG must create a code of conduct this season. He cannot allow the chemistry killing poisonous personalities to take over again. I don't know how he can do it but the highly paid vets must face some type of discipline when they attempt to freeze out these young guns. Ball sharing just didn't happen last season. There is an old saying in the military when you are under fire. If you are the one who says I'll move and you cover then the cover guy who is momentarily somewhat protected will be apt to move up and say this time I'll move and you cover. You don't get attention dancing in the circle before the game begins and then fail to provide an honest effort after the tip off. There must be consequences when you lag back and allow opponents to get layups in the first quarter. The only talking that should be taking place is when you are playing defense. No dancing if you can't back it up with your basketball play. Harris needs to take over the team leadership role next year. He is a good role model type teammate who is all business and no nonsense. The coach cannot allow any more grab ass between the point guard and the center. They must recognize that there are other players who want to touch the basketball and expect more from them on defense. SVG has his work cut out for him. This season will be his defining moment as a coach. And a trade sure would be nice before the trade deadline.

If Pope returns the youth movement might be dead unless Drummond and Jackson are moved. Pope leaves and Drummond follows in a trade followed by Jackson if he can get his mojo back. Next summer things will be looking up in a big way. SVG keeps his job. Keep on dreaming.
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Paul/ Agents

Post  Sparma on Thu Jun 29, 2017 10:09 pm

I'd wondered about that one myself, Oracle. Paul let the Clips know that he planned to sign with the Rockets? On what basis? Simply knowing they'd likely offer the max? Seemed fishy, but also the kind of thing that I suspect goes on all the time, via via. The big agents have players on different teams; they're not waiting for a deadline to give their clients a good/ half inside picture.

Oracle wrote:
http://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nba/chris-paul-trade-has-some-in-nba-suggesting-tampering/ar-BBDs9WS?li=BBnbfcL&ocid=UE01DHP wrote:After all, free agency doesn't start until 12:01 a.m ET Saturday — yet Paul had already made it well-known he wanted to play with James Harden in Houston, hence the two sides agreeing to a sign and trade.

Which, technically speaking, would cause some logistical issues.

Here’s an NBA executive speaking with The Los Angeles Times‘ Broderick Turner:

“I don’t want to use the ‘T’ word — tampering — but we all don’t play by the rules when it comes to making deals,” one Eastern Conference executive said. “Besides, nobody is going to rat anybody out. That’s how this league works.”

Another said the following:

“Every team is looking for an advantage,” one executive said. “The deal got done way too fast for somebody not to be talking already. That happened real quick. But hey, that’s how it goes in this league.”
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Oracle

Post  BallinD on Thu Jun 29, 2017 9:36 pm

It seems the rich will continue to get richer in this two-tiered Superteam league. League officials will look the other way, avg fans will cheer and small market teams must get smarter and stockpile picks, or at the very least accumulate them and flip them for good players. What will we do? We continue to hope.

Oracle wrote:
http://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nba/chris-paul-trade-has-some-in-nba-suggesting-tampering/ar-BBDs9WS?li=BBnbfcL&ocid=UE01DHP wrote:After all, free agency doesn't start until 12:01 a.m ET Saturday — yet Paul had already made it well-known he wanted to play with James Harden in Houston, hence the two sides agreeing to a sign and trade.

Which, technically speaking, would cause some logistical issues.

Here’s an NBA executive speaking with The Los Angeles Times‘ Broderick Turner:

“I don’t want to use the ‘T’ word — tampering — but we all don’t play by the rules when it comes to making deals,” one Eastern Conference executive said. “Besides, nobody is going to rat anybody out. That’s how this league works.”

Another said the following:

“Every team is looking for an advantage,” one executive said. “The deal got done way too fast for somebody not to be talking already. That happened real quick. But hey, that’s how it goes in this league.”
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Forum

Post  BallinD on Thu Jun 29, 2017 8:58 pm

Is Rex Walters the young, dynamic asst coach we have been hoping SVG would add to his bench, or is he simply the next "yes man" to line up to kiss the fat azz of the "Master of Panic?"

Since this is the season of hope, perhaps Rex will be a developmental voice on the bench and help explain to SVG the pick and role is not a two-man game between Weggie and Andrea (nod to WTF).

Maybe SJ will continue his positive talk and new-found leadership role during the season and show the old dogs we need to communicate on D, set real screens (we will miss you Baynes) swing the ball from side-to-side, and basically play like a team

@Cool: I like the idea of Tobias leading, though I think Ish might get in there as well this upcoming season, if he can focus even more on assists.

@Sparma: I agree, the stars do seem to be lining up for a sea-change in old Stupid Van Gundy's approach.

@DX: I have championed Olynyk before and agree he would be a nice addition, if we can somehow get Ainge's attention. Can't see us getting Bradley, but I would swap him for KCP all day long, though I am willing to see if he can somehow take an uptick this year and be the man we need, sharing the SG spot with the Rook, Kid Kennard.


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Chris Paul trade has some in NBA suggesting tampering

Post  Oracle on Thu Jun 29, 2017 8:34 pm

http://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nba/chris-paul-trade-has-some-in-nba-suggesting-tampering/ar-BBDs9WS?li=BBnbfcL&ocid=UE01DHP wrote:After all, free agency doesn't start until 12:01 a.m ET Saturday — yet Paul had already made it well-known he wanted to play with James Harden in Houston, hence the two sides agreeing to a sign and trade.

Which, technically speaking, would cause some logistical issues.

Here’s an NBA executive speaking with The Los Angeles Times‘ Broderick Turner:

“I don’t want to use the ‘T’ word — tampering — but we all don’t play by the rules when it comes to making deals,” one Eastern Conference executive said. “Besides, nobody is going to rat anybody out. That’s how this league works.”

Another said the following:

“Every team is looking for an advantage,” one executive said. “The deal got done way too fast for somebody not to be talking already. That happened real quick. But hey, that’s how it goes in this league.”
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Re: FORUM

Post  cool breeze on Thu Jun 29, 2017 7:48 pm

Sparma wrote:Kennard shows enough D after SVG watching to become eligible for rotation minutes? Maybe so, but I'll predict that in any case SVG will work harder this year to integrate the youth. In what could well be a decisive year for him, putting all his coaching eggs in the maximizing of wins may not be the way to go with the win total likely to be higher than last year, but still not so impressive for the 4th year of a rebuild. He's got to show that he's managed to create a nice youth movement with Stanley, Ellenson, and Kennard as the likely beneficiaries. I foresee a shift, maybe subtle, in his coaching style, with more emphasis on youth. Might have happened anyway with Johnson and Ellenson, but I see an added incentive this year.

I hope you are right Sparma. What if SVG makes this decision and stays with it despite some rough moments. He keeps an even keel all season long working hard to help build confidence levels with all three players. As they play together building trust in each other on both ends of the floor could it be that the opposite happens at the end of next season? Is it possible that instead of the Pistons looking tired and defeated for the last two months this team starts to find something special and exciting. The total team wins might not be any better but at the end will the fans want more instead of being happy that the embarrassment and suffering is finally over and we can turn our attention to the real teams that played in the playoffs? All three players, Ellenson, Kennard and Johnson have HEART. They are excited about playing basketball instead of just showing up. SVG must create a code of conduct this season. He cannot allow the chemistry killing poisonous personalities to take over again. I don't know how he can do it but the highly paid vets must face some type of discipline when they attempt to freeze out these young guns. Ball sharing just didn't happen last season. There is an old saying in the military when you are under fire. If you are the one who says I'll move and you cover then the cover guy who is momentarily somewhat protected will be apt to move up and say this time I'll move and you cover. You don't get attention dancing in the circle before the game begins and then fail to provide an honest effort after the tip off. There must be consequences when you lag back and allow opponents to get layups in the first quarter. The only talking that should be taking place is when you are playing defense. No dancing if you can't back it up with your basketball play. Harris needs to take over the team leadership role next year. He is a good role model type teammate who is all business and no nonsense. The coach cannot allow any more grab ass between the point guard and the center. They must recognize that there are other players who want to touch the basketball and expect more from them on defense. SVG has his work cut out for him. This season will be his defining moment as a coach. And a trade sure would be nice before the trade deadline.

If Pope returns the youth movement might be dead unless Drummond and Jackson are moved. Pope leaves and Drummond follows in a trade followed by Jackson if he can get his mojo back. Next summer things will be looking up in a big way. SVG keeps his job. Keep on dreaming.

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Prediction: limited youth movement ahead

Post  Sparma on Thu Jun 29, 2017 6:16 pm

Kennard shows enough D after SVG watching to become eligible for rotation minutes? Maybe so, but I'll predict that in any case SVG will work harder this year to integrate the youth. In what could well be a decisive year for him, putting all his coaching eggs in the maximizing of wins may not be the way to go with the win total likely to be higher than last year, but still not so impressive for the 4th year of a rebuild. He's got to show that he's managed to create a nice youth movement with Stanley, Ellenson, and Kennard as the likely beneficiaries. I foresee a shift, maybe subtle, in his coaching style, with more emphasis on youth. Might have happened anyway with Johnson and Ellenson, but I see an added incentive this year.
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Go Pistons

Post  BallinD on Thu Jun 29, 2017 4:07 pm

Go Ellensen, Go Luke, Go SJ...

Clippers have just capitulated to the rebuild. How long will Stupid Van Gundy hold out.

According to Einstein, the definition of insanity is doing the same thing and expecting a different result.

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Re: FORUM

Post  cool breeze on Thu Jun 29, 2017 12:30 pm

deusXango wrote:I'd have no problem with paying KCP the max., if there were some guarantees that Reggie Jackson would be traded. Why is the local media hype machine not marketing that possibility? I know some don't want to turn the team over to Ish Smith, but has anyone seriously considered starting Luke and KCP in the new look Pistons backcourt? Stan didn't hold Reggie's feet to the fire to play defense to earn time on the floor or a hefty contract. Pay KCP and let Reggie go!

Let last year be the last year that SVG is allowed to hi-jack our minds with that political, double talking, bullsh!t, that he's so good at and focus on what we see that should be done, but is not being done...don't let stupid decisions and insulting excuses go unaddressed, like the Boban scenario that BallinD researched and brought to the attention of fandom at large. What type of unnecessary mind games has SVG and his drunken offensive assistant coach been playing with these young men, behind the scenes? It's unnatural for a team on the upswing, like we were last year, to regress...I mean a player possibly, but a whole damn team?! Fans can attack a mediocre executive leadership through the weakest member...Keith Langlois! He's the spin master for the nonsense that SVG does and says; let's write his ass without the hero worshipping attitude, but with pointed questions and observations.

Starting Saturday, let's watch Ellenson and Kennard's performances very carefully...let's not let SVG off the hook with slanted critiques of these young men so that those inept players from last year won't dominate the PT this year for the Pistons, and our young core is sitting the bench or playing in Grand Rapids. I believe they will play their way into the rotation this year, if given a honest and fair chance.

Has a trade with Boston really been pursued? Let's not loose perspective on Drummond's worth; what would it take to get Ainge to part with Bradley, Smart, and Olynyk? I mean don't Boston have a superstar in their sights? Who doesn't think a committee of Boban, Ellenson, and Olynyk would be more effective than Drummond and Boban? You want to talk about real defenders then look no further than Bradley, Johnson, Morris, and Smart. Is this recklessly throwing money (that we can't afford) at KCP a paranoid reaction to loosing Greg Monroe, after publicly stating we were prepared for any and all situations and we weren't? The "Moose" didn't get what we wanted to give him to stay, but hasn't been welcome on the team stupid enough to sign him. There's an irony there that we should look at.

We have to believe that Reggie Jackson is no longer marketable. The Pistons are stuck with his contract and SVG is on the hot seat and every team in the league knows it. This makes it difficult to deal Drummond because any team interested in making a trade involving Drummond wants to take advantage of the Pistons thinking that SVG is bitting his nails worrying that he might have to come back with both Jackson and Drummond for another dysfunctional season which will mean he will be fired. If anyone can improve Drummond, Brad Stevens has the best chance to do it. Boston needs a big center. But Andre Drummond betrayed Stan Van Gundy after signing the big contract as we have outlined previously. The rest of the league knows that so how can any team in the league trust Andre Drummond to give an honest effort for an entire season? Drummond lack of effort for the last half of this past season is well known to everyone other than some Piston fans. He is the biggest reason why teams blew out Detroit in the first quarter of all those blow out games. It was Drummond who failed to get his butt back on defense to prevent layups. He failed at his number one duty to the team. Boston needs a shot blocker and paint protector. They do not need a guy who plays center that loves to play offense but can't shoot a foul shot or make a jump shot. No coach likes Andre Drummond's baseline hook shot or anything about his low post game. What offers have actually been made for either Jackson or Drummond? I suspect the Kings might have been interested because they need a center to run the pick and roll game with Fox their new draft pick. The Kings had very little to offer to make any trade work. You mentioned Boston and I thought all along that the Celtics might be Detroit's only chance to move Drummond. If they would give up the players you mentioned SVG would be insane to not take the offer. So I believe Boston will not take a chance on Drummond although Thomas was active tweeting about this idea before the last trade deadline. Drummond has played with more energy against Boston so maybe he would love to play for the Celtics. One thing is for sure. Andre Drummond is screwing with SVG big time. He has made statements that no other player would make if they actually wanted to come back. You never say it would be a good thing for our team to rest over the summer. Or no I have not found time to work on my free throws. If you were content but still liked playing the role of a lazy ass player you would lie and say oh yes I am working hard on my weaknesses.

Today is no different for me than the day after the season ended. Jackson, Drummond and Pope are way over valued . Who would not rather have Avery Bradley than Pope? There is no comparison with their basketball IQ, ability to play defense, and offensive ability. Bradley showed he is a really good player in playoff situations this past season. Pope has proved nothing. And this nonsense about Pope's shoulder is silly. He looked healthy to me and if he wasn't healthy then Pope should have not played because he was not an effective or difference maker type player. So how can management base another bogus signing on a hope and prayer? If Drummond and Jackson are not traceable because of their contracts then why sign Pope even if he might play 20% better next season? With Jackson and Drummond the team will always be dysfunctional. They will never be a superior team.

I have no problem if Drummond could be moved to allow Boban to get considerable playing time. If Drummond cannot be moved, I would be really happy to see Boban as the starter with Drummond coming off the bench. That is what should happen based on Drummond's play last season. Boban is a better defender than Drummond and he is a better offensive player. IF Boban can get back on defense quick enough he can block shots. Boban is more engaged as Stan likes to say and his basketball IQ is far superior to Andre. Notice that Drummond runs back on offense to get position in the low post. But he has no low post game. Then he lags back on defense because he has never enjoyed playing defense. He wants those offensive stats. How do you work with that if you are a coach?

Stan Van Gundy needs to reduce his expectations on Andre Drummond's value and work harder to move him. Then he must hope that Jackson can play good enough to be traded for anything just to remove his contract. The number one job of Piston management is to find a way to get rid of both Jackson and Drummond. The Piston front office got the franchise into this mess so it is up to them to do the right thing now or before the trade deadline. It is not logical to build a team around those two players. If as you said dX the Pistons could trade with Boston for Olynyk, Bradley, Smart, Amir Johnson or any combination of players on their roster and Detroit could remove both Drummond and Jackson before the trade deadline, I see the Pistons easily making the playoffs. With Drummond and Jackson Detroit will struggle to make the 8th spot and meanwhile SVG will be tied in knots and fail to allow our talented young players to develop because Jackson does not share the basketball with the younger players. If there have been any offers for Drummond and Jackson or at least one of those players, then Stan is a guy who cannot face reality.

Detroit has no point guard. Smith and Jackson are both modern day point guards who are not really point guards. They are players with some ball handling skills and average to below average play making skills. That is the way the NBA is going with the point guard position. The guards should be inter changeable. If Johnson has improved his ball handling skills I like the idea of playing Kennard and Johnson together with either player bringing the ball up the court and initiating the offense. Kennard could be a dynamic option with the ball in his hands at the tip of the key. He is a play maker and so is Johnson. Kennard on his worst day would be a better defender than Smith. But Smith could get the 2nd unit going well too and a good guy to have around to both start and come off the bench depending on match ups. We need play makers who get others involved in the offense. Jackson is not a player who does that. Maybe have Jackson come off the bench if he can't be traded. But do not allow him to dominate the offense any longer unless he can play in crunch time like he did two years ago. Go Henry, Stanley and Luke. Those three are the Pistons future to blend in with Harris, Morris, Boban, Celtic players and our pick next year. It could be so exciting without Drummond and Jackson on board.

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Re: FORUM

Post  deusXango on Thu Jun 29, 2017 12:32 am

I'd have no problem with paying KCP the max., if there were some guarantees that Reggie Jackson would be traded. Why is the local media hype machine not marketing that possibility? I know some don't want to turn the team over to Ish Smith, but has anyone seriously considered starting Luke and KCP in the new look Pistons backcourt? Stan didn't hold Reggie's feet to the fire to play defense to earn time on the floor or a hefty contract. Pay KCP and let Reggie go!

Let last year be the last year that SVG is allowed to hi-jack our minds with that political, double talking, bullsh!t, that he's so good at and focus on what we see that should be done, but is not being done...don't let stupid decisions and insulting excuses go unaddressed, like the Boban scenario that BallinD researched and brought to the attention of fandom at large. What type of unnecessary mind games has SVG and his drunken offensive assistant coach been playing with these young men, behind the scenes? It's unnatural for a team on the upswing, like we were last year, to regress...I mean a player possibly, but a whole damn team?! Fans can attack a mediocre executive leadership through the weakest member...Keith Langlois! He's the spin master for the nonsense that SVG does and says; let's write his ass without the hero worshipping attitude, but with pointed questions and observations.

Starting Saturday, let's watch Ellenson and Kennard's performances very carefully...let's not let SVG off the hook with slanted critiques of these young men so that those inept players from last year won't dominate the PT this year for the Pistons, and our young core is sitting the bench or playing in Grand Rapids. I believe they will play their way into the rotation this year, if given a honest and fair chance.

Has a trade with Boston really been pursued? Let's not loose perspective on Drummond's worth; what would it take to get Ainge to part with Bradley, Smart, and Olynyk? I mean don't Boston have a superstar in their sights? Who doesn't think a committee of Boban, Ellenson, and Olynyk would be more effective than Drummond and Boban? You want to talk about real defenders then look no further than Bradley, Johnson, Morris, and Smart. Is this recklessly throwing money (that we can't afford) at KCP a paranoid reaction to loosing Greg Monroe, after publicly stating we were prepared for any and all situations and we weren't? The "Moose" didn't get what we wanted to give him to stay, but hasn't been welcome on the team stupid enough to sign him. There's an irony there that we should look at.
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