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Lemonpen

Post  Sparma on Wed May 24, 2017 5:38 pm

Thanks for your thoughtful and evenhanded response.

A few reactions:

Hinkie's drafting record does seem to be pedestrian.

In fact, I'd add that's he made a major error in giving little or no thought to talent distribution on the roster. Post-Hinkie that resulted in Noel being unloaded, with Okafur likely being next. For a "Process" enthusiast that's a correctable strategic error though; more attention needs to be given to roster-building and not sheer accumulation of talent.

As to the effects on the fans, I thought I'd heard that Philly fans recently gave him a loud ovation (post-firing). Backers of the "Process" will go through the lean years patiently. We've had one winning season in the last 9, and to what end? Still, I'm in at least partial agreement with you here, because it'd be a real drag spending a bundle taking a family with young kids to the game, only to have the home team be terrible year after year. My understanding is that their Arena was more exciting than ours last year though.

The effect on the NBA's a huge issue. If eight teams opted for the Process, it would be really ugly. Is a possible that could have a curative effect on the league, forcing the league to make franchises more competitive a la NFL, where Green Bay can be one of its great franchises? Also, Hinkie simply exploited an opening created by the league. Still, this is where I agree most with you.

I do think you're neglecting an important factor in favor of the Process, namely salary cap issues and their ramifications. It's not just about being bad and drafting high, because Philly's also in great salary cap shape. Tom Thielke at PP commended Hinkie on his trading record (he provided a link). We've seen SVG exploit trade opportunities due to salary cap advantages relative to the other team; that's over for the Pistons now though as they've become financially strapped. In the Process, again and again you're able to make opportunistic trades. Those have often been for drafting advantages, as with Sac (where Sac should have lucked into the #3 pick, which Philly now holds itself). As Philly emerges out of the Process in the next year or two, they'll be able to use their salary cap advantage created by the Process directly to build their roster. I think what we'll see in the next two years is that's they're a much likelier destination for significant FA's than we are.

My advocacy for the Process notwithstanding, I think you've made a strong case for the opposing view.
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I couldn't have said it better!!!

Post  Oracle on Wed May 24, 2017 4:05 pm

Lemon, this is a very good summary of the situation, and I LOVE the way you described what Hinkie is doing and its effect on the league/sport of basketball.

Lemonpen wrote:Sparma, I appreciate your thoughts.

Counterpoint: I think what Philly management has allowed is the worst thing to happen to both the game and business of basketball. Over the last 4 years the Sixers are 75-253. They have enjoyed 1 +0.500 record in 12 years.

Philly management has essentially burned down a once capable franchise, urinated away a generation of fans, trashed any competitive integrity they once held, and contributed mightily to the “weak sister” view of the eastern conference.

Hinkie has done little requiring bball acumen. He has simply conducted a fire sale for picks 3-5 yrs away, then assembled a crappy roster assuring his own top pick each year. Truth be told a review of his draft record leaves something to be desired, with misses on guys like CJ McCollum, the Greek Freak, Hardaway Jr., Aaron Gordon and Porzingas. It appears his bball vision is limited to the consensus opinion. But, like a true sport fisherman, Hinkie tosses his catch back for more future 1st round picks. I understand his goal of separating wheat from chaff until they latch on to the next TOP 50 ALL TIME’er, but in my opinion the method is so distasteful. He corrupts the system, and I suspect Adam Silver suffers major heartburn over all of it.

All factors considered I hardly recognize this as a success. So far, more luck than skill. What will be interesting though is seeing if he has the bball chops to retain his own talent, add by other means, and build a winner. 
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2nd biggest lie ever sold...

Post  Oracle on Wed May 24, 2017 4:03 pm

Don wrote:I don't like slamming Pope. This is not a personal thing for me. My opinion is based on watching him play and lot and logic and reason while looking at other 2 guards in the league and the upcoming college players in the draft. He is AVERAGE. He is not a superstar. So I think some fans forget the amount of money Pope's agent is demanding.

You seriously crack me up! I won't spend time recounting the numerous times you've questioned the character, NOT the play of many individuals on this team, all you need to do is read your posts. Denying what's in black and white is pretty tricky!

And you need to wake up, there's a free market out there, sorry you aren't a capitalist, maybe you can go out and dictate what players should be paid.

Pope's money isn't the problem, it's the fact that we've made a lot of deals that are on the high end. 

But unlike most here, who would like an upgrade at SG, they have valid reasons. I understand Wise's reasons and Ballin makes a case that's worth considering and shouldn't be ignored, but you're just plain nasty and it's REAL personal to you.

If you think you're fooling anybody, you're sadly mistaken!
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Philly

Post  lemonpen on Wed May 24, 2017 3:15 pm

Sparma wrote:Maybe saying that I regard Philly as a success story in the making is more accurate, but I'm willing to go into some tortuous semantics for anyone willing to read on.

In terms of performance on the court, there are degrees of success. Being a consistently winning team is one level.  Being a contender for a conference title is another.  Being a championship contender is another.  

Off the court, there may be additional markers for success.  One mark of success can be having put the pieces together for a very bright future.  That may be paired with being horrible in present performance.  For instance, the Kansas City A's were horrible in the late 60's on the field.  In retrospect, I think it's fair to say they'd already been tremendously successful in one way, namely in garnering the top flight talent that pretty clearly projected forward to serious success on the field.  Can we say that Charlie Finley was already successful in 1968 when his team was, what, in 9th place?  In one sense, yes, I think, certainly in retrospect.  Even in 1968 I think we could fairly have said that Finley was a success in the making.  I'm not projecting 3 championships to Philly, but it's in that sense that Philly already can be said to be successful, or at at least a success in the making.  They've already put together the elements (including that #3 pick this year, LA's next year as well as their own high pick) to be outstanding in the future.  That's a mark of success.  I'd be happy to shower SVG with accolades if he's done in the past what quite probably will make for high performance in the future.  

I think Philly already can be projected as a conference contender in 3-4 years.  I'll take that as a present level of achievement beyond what Detroit's shown in the past 9 years.  I thought the Pistons might be on their way to the first level of success of being a consistent winner, but not so fast.

So as not to get too hung about the word "success" itself, another mark of attainment is: would you trade your team's future for that team's future?  I'd gladly trade Detroit's future for Philly's.  That much seems straightforward.  Going back to "success," that preferability strikes me as one of its measures.    

If Philly goes totally off the rails down the line, I'll need to admit that I was wrong in  thinking that they were a success in the making.  But even then, I don't think I'd need to admit that I didn't have good grounds for thinking they were a success in the making or for thinking it probable that they'd already (anno 2017) been successful in laying the foundation for a bright future.  But if we return to this debate 3, 4, 5 years down the line, I'll be happy to admit whatever should be admitted at that point.

lemonpen wrote:
Sparma wrote:Again, I think Philly's a success story, certainly in comparison with us.  So that's an example, although admittedly it's a story in a making.  Let's talk again in two years.  I think they're close, and that's with plenty of setbacks.

Beyond that, what are we really talking about?  If we're talking about building through the draft, that's happened plenty of times.  If it's about building through the draft, maybe not so much.  So if the question becomes where have I EVER seen a champion built through high picks (rather than a question about tanking per se): the Bulls dynasty was essentially built through high picks, with Jordan at #3, Pippen (with a trade), and Horace Grant (admittedly at 10).  That cadre of high picks constituted the core of the first half of that dynasty.  

Maybe the building through high picks doesn't work so well anymore because small & medium market teams can't hold on to those picks?  But OKC came close to a championship with high picks in Westbrook, KD, and Harden.  They decided they needed to trade Harden, then lost KD.  Still, that's a good recent example of building through the draft.

Another consideration: the Hinkie strategy may be part of a tiny sample size.  Plenty of teams will tank for a season or so.  And some teams are bad for years, with high picks, like Sacramento.  But I think the strategy of deliberately and ruthlessly tanking year after year may be rare.  Arguably, there's a success rate (or soon will be) of 1 out of 1 (100%) for the fully dedicated, all in, long term, Hinkie approach.

Compare that to the alternatives.  How many successful strategies available to the Pistons can we point to in today's NBA?  Maybe Dumars could have pulled off something like what Ainge later did/ is doing in Boston, late in the Pistons run.  The AI fiasco would have had to have turned out differently for that to have worked.  If not tanking, what are the realistic alternatives for us leading to contention?  The first couple years of the SVG regime made a lot of sense to me, yet here we are.

Maybe a small/ medium market team just can't contend by way of the draft anymore?  Possibly so, but what's the alternative?  I've praised SVG (before this season) for upgrading incrementally, but the relatively low ceiling paired with that strategy was always foreseeable.

SVG's earned another year to do it his way, but that way's looking pretty limited now.  Tanking's not the way to go?  Could well be, but I prefer it to being mediocre for another decade, if there isn't a serious upturn partly in next season.  I foresee some improvement, but nothing close to awe inspiring.  By contrast, post-Cleveland, Philly's one of the likely contenders, unless it turns out they can't hold on to their wealth of talent.  But if that's their fate, that brings us back to why it makes sense for a team like Detroit to take bold/ wild risks, in a market like ours and without superstar talent on the roster.  


Oracle wrote:
Sparma wrote:Going Hinkie?  Won't happen this year, but I'd take Philly's future over ours.  In that way, the Hinkie-initiated "Process" is well on its way to working.  They're sitting on the #3 this year & four 2nd rounders in a deep draft.  They get the Lakers' 1st round pick next year (unless #1) which should be a really high pick & their own should be high once again.   A couple years from now, if health is with them, they should be becoming a good team, with the potential to be great.  Can't say the same about the Pistons who took a lower risk path with less potential reward.  I'd be happy to bring in Hinkie to blow things up next year if things remain tepid.  We've been largely irrelevant for the past 9 years; that trend could easily go on another decade.  Last year notwithstanding, SVG's earned another year to do it his way, but then it's fair to blow it up.  Dream on about Boston's pick, LA's pick, or Porzingis.   We'll likely stay the course and float forward.  The only time I see SVG going for the huge gamble (a la Cousins) is when he becomes convinced his gig may be in genuine jeopardy.  I'd don't see that realization hitting him this summer.  Maybe by the trade deadline though.

Concerning the D which Cool mentioned, the stats do tell part of the story: the Pistons don't turn the ball over much, which contributes heavily to solid defensive numbers.  Beyond that, I read that they generally get back on D (even though I've heard complaints about AD), which again makes for solid numbers.  Those two strengths go together/ are compatible with their direct playing of D not being good, which is I think the feature of their D that Cool was highlighting.
Sparma, when and where have you EVER seen this Hinkie approach work? It doesn't, it's hard to build up from nothing, but in this method, you also have to specify your end game.

The only hope of that approach is that you build up enough assets to swing a trade for an established star, but the obstacles to making that happen are HUGE for a couple of reasons.

First, the assets are low cost assets, so they typically don't amount to much and secondly, good luck getting a star to come to a losing franchise on the Hinkie dream of future promise.

Guys are frustrated with the process here and oddly panicked after an understandable setback where we lose about 7 more games, hardly a major setback.

Dreaming is more in the Hinkie thinking, it's ALL Dream nothing is guaranteed, the LA/Boston picks are in play, that's reality, and there are two ways to participate. Either directly or indirectly as a 3rd team to make things work.

KP is an opportunity but I admit that it's low because NY would be a fool to let him go, still, we have the assets to make it work and Drummond is only a 5 year pro and in big men, that's very young and generally before they bloom
Oracle wrote:.

Define success.  What exactly has Philly accomplished.

Sparma, I appreciate your thoughts.

Counterpoint: I think what Philly management has allowed is the worst thing to happen to both the game and business of basketball. Over the last 4 years the Sixers are 75-253. They have enjoyed 1 +0.500 record in 12 years.

Philly management has essentially burned down a once capable franchise, urinated away a generation of fans, trashed any competitive integrity they once held, and contributed mightily to the “weak sister” view of the eastern conference.

Hinkie has done little requiring bball acumen. He has simply conducted a fire sale for picks 3-5 yrs away, then assembled a crappy roster assuring his own top pick each year. Truth be told a review of his draft record leaves something to be desired, with misses on guys like CJ McCollum, the Greek Freak, Hardaway Jr., Aaron Gordon and Porzingas. It appears his bball vision is limited to the consensus opinion. But, like a true sport fisherman, Hinkie tosses his catch back for more future 1st round picks. I understand his goal of separating wheat from chaff until they latch on to the next TOP 50 ALL TIME’er, but in my opinion the method is so distasteful. He corrupts the system, and I suspect Adam Silver suffers major heartburn over all of it.

All factors considered I hardly recognize this as a success. So far, more luck than skill. What will be interesting though is seeing if he has the bball chops to retain his own talent, add by other means, and build a winner.
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Re: FORUM

Post  cool breeze on Wed May 24, 2017 1:21 pm

BallinD wrote:Oracle, honestly I discounted the injury part, but it is relevant, I agree. It's just that KCP is always inconsistent and disappears regularly, so I'm thinking its par for the course. The injury was to his non shooting (left shoulder) and yeah, maybe it caused the slump and maybe the slump was coincidental and not causal. We can't say for sure.

Ballin you are right that Pope has always been inconsistent on offense. Bringing up the shoulder injury would be something Pope's agent would be doing to SELL his client. We fans should try to be objective. Pope has never stood out as a difference maker. The entire basic of being on the side of signing Pope again is hope and prayer. That is it. There is no evidence that he can play as well as any player making $20 to 25 million a year. I look at Avery Bradley on the Celtics and see a guy who has always been one of the best on ball guard defenders in the NBA since he arrived. Pope is not a good on ball defender. He allows dribble penetration from starting 2 guards and point guards he has to guard because our Point guards are among the worst defenders in the NBA who play in any rotation. I am talking about not just starters but players coming off the bench. Bradley makes $8 mil and change.

I don't like slamming Pope. This is not a personal thing for me. My opinion is based on watching him play and lot and logic and reason while looking at other 2 guards in the league and the upcoming college players in the draft. He is AVERAGE. He is not a superstar. So I think some fans forget the amount of money Pope's agent is demanding. And what the consequences will be for the Pistons future if management is dumb enough to take the bait from Pope's agent. One of the reporters interviewed Stan Van Gundy and made a comment about how the Pistons want agents to believe playing in Detroit would be an attractive thing. That has to be the dumbest thing that I have ever heard. So management is willing to over pay for defective players like Andre Drummond just to curry favor with agents. How the world has changed. Some of my friends who have worked in the business continue to say that th agents run the NBA. The pointed shoe lawyer agents have seized control so our management must give them whatever amount of money they ask for until the money runs out and we have a team stocked with the highest paid defective losers.

No wonder nothing makes any sense when you look at what management has done to the Pistons. I think that the era of quality Piston basketball is over and has been over for a long time. It started when Joe Dumars jumped the gun and traded Mr. Big Shot when that team was at least competitive. The team had Ben Wallace still blocking shots and playing hard nosed defense. The team still had a lot of high basketball IQ players who might have been older but still could beat a lot of teams because they played smart and defended well. After the trade for Iverson, Dumars over paid for the services of Hamilton who was so pissed off that Billups was traded that he lost his old spirit knowing that inversion and Stuckey were incapable of leading the old team. Rasheed said " it is over" on the day of the Billups trade. after that didn't work, Dumars became desperate and boldly went out and signed two lemons in free agency. This is when the true downfall started. Dumars brought in Charlie V and Ben Gordon who were well known throughout the league as defensive slackers. At the start of the next season with those two players on board, Detroit's defensive presence was long gone. It has never been the same since. Piston defense no longer bothered any team in the NBA and that is the way it is today. After multiple coaching hiring and firing, Tom Gores settled on Stan Van Gundy who has done his best to not allow any quality defenders on his team. He wants shooters or one diminutional players and that is who he has signed at every position. Although Stan says the opposite, any person who has ever played basketball can see the truth. When crunch time comes around, our players cannot defend and make the stops our previous successful Detroit winning teams always seemed to be able to do.

If Stan Van Gundy cannot change course and find some at least average two way players, then he has to be fired. As the team sits now, I see no hope that they can get good enough on the defensive end to compete for anything other than a 12th seed in the draft. You cannot come into the league as an extremely weak defensive player and expect to become a quality defensive player. It just does't work that way. Good defensive players who have limited offensive skills can get playing time with their defense and then work hard to develop the offensive skill set they need be successful offensive players. In just one summer of hard work, Avery Bradley has developed the ability to drive under control and finish well. His outside shooting has greatly improved. With that offensive improvement I believe he might be among the top 3 on ball guard defenders in the league. Good defense creates better looks on offense. When big men do not rule the defense glass then 2nd and 3rd chance opportunities kill the team chemistry. It is so deflating for guards and small forwards to work their asses off on defense and then force a bad shot when the shot clock is about to expire and then the center and power forward have no clue what they are doing and either forget or are too lazy to screen their man out and players like Whiteside get an easy tip in or offensive rebound and the grueling bending of the knees getting deep in the crouch takes place again with the guards and small forward for another 24 seconds. That is what the Pistons franchise player allowed to happen to his teammates last year with the full blessing of the head coach. Not tough talk just love for the guy who signed the $27 million dollar contact. How can we be so lucky.

Blow it up! Do not sign Pope, trade Andre Drummond as soon as Possible. Wait and see how Jackson responds in the first half of the season. If there is not improvement, try hard to move his contract for expiring contracts and throw in some money while trying to at least get a 2nd round pick. The value of the highest paid Piston players keeps shrinking. Don't let what has happened to Jackson go the same way with the Drummond contract. Move him now before he arrives to training camp laughing and giggling after months of rest while weighing in at 320 pounds. If Drummond can be moved and KCP signs with another team, Detroit will be in a good position financially. Play Ellenson, Johnson for big minutes next year to incorporate their personalities into the team chemistry. The result will show a big turnaround in the way our Pistons play the game of basketball. The head coach gets a non ball dominate point guard and encourages his players to move without the basketball, set screens and share the basketball and we will see a team with good team chemistry. What Ellenson and Johnson will bring is hard nosed basketball on both ends. The coach cannot nit pick their every move on the court. The idea is make them feel confident that they are part of the core instead of fringe players. The leader of the team needs to be Harris. Players respect him. The coach needs to allow the team to form their own team chemistry and work things out as to how the team can play better together. Then perhaps Detroit will miss the playoffs for one more season but after they land a superstar player with a top 5 pick in the draft, the course will be set in an upward direction. After other teams are out of money because they have those big contracts of Pope, Drummond and Jackson, Detroit scores big in free agency. Go the same statue quo this team is now on with dysfunctional half in and half out players and nothing changes. Stan Van Gundy is a smart man. I have no doubt of that. So the only reason why he wouldn't blow up this team now is due to the possibility that the owner might fire him. I would hope that the owner would understand that anyone can make mistakes and give Stan another chance that is if he decides that he needs to acquire players who can defend especially big men who can defend and be animals on the defensive boards.

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KCP

Post  BallinD on Tue May 23, 2017 11:11 pm

Oracle, honestly I discounted the injury part, but it is relevant, I agree. It's just that KCP is always inconsistent and disappears regularly, so I'm thinking its par for the course. The injury was to his non shooting (left shoulder) and yeah, maybe it caused the slump and maybe the slump was coincidental and not causal. We can't say for sure.
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Re: FORUM

Post  cool breeze on Tue May 23, 2017 10:09 pm

Oracle wrote:
Sparma wrote:I think Philly already can be projected as a conference contender in 3-4 years.  
@Sparma: That was the projection for this team several months ago by damn near everybody from fans to talking heads!If you believe that the path to anything is a straight line, and please take this as a joke, but you seriously need to get out more Smile 

@Ballin: You left out the reason for KCP's slide, he gave a clear one.

@Don: It's impossible to go back to a place you've never been! Ballin believes your pessimism is justified, and I agree that we all should take everything with a grain of salt, there are many outstanding questions.

I do believe that SVB will do something unexpected, why you guys think that's not possible, when they've done just that every year baffles me as much as losing an additional 7 games throws everybody into a tizzy, but it is what it is.

However, there is reality and just plain throwing stuff on the wall and praying. There are real constraints on what can be done, with many competing considerations. There is no reality in anything Don is saying, but there are grains of truth. It's just that none of that is strung together into anything coherent enough to fit into any reality this team can achieve.

Don, you joked about me being concerned, and earlier it was a joke to me, but the level of nasty posts directed personally at players, calling into question their character is beyond the pale. It's fair to criticize their game, but you don't know anybody on this team well enough to question their character, yet you do all of the time.

It's just an unjustified and unnecessary level of vitriol, and you never used to be that kind of person, so yes, the concern was real.

Please Oracle stop the nonsense. Character is a term many players and coaches use to describe types of players. We are talking about basketball not a man's character as a person when he is not playing basketball. Are we not talking about basketball on this forum? Relating to your other critical remark I only report on details that seem important to me relating to the Pistons. Why don't you come up with some ideas as to why the Pistons suck? You can't blame it all on the coach. You don't have to act like you are the Oracle. I like that cool name but please get a grip. I can come up with ideas that could put Detroit on the right path again. It is easy to sit back and guess as to how many games this team will win next year. I think that I was one loss behind Sparma with the guess work.

One point that you make is not valid relating glorifiying what this team did two years ago. As I recall the same players were making the same mistakes they made this season. Other teams had our players number because none of the starters spent time correcting the fundamental mistakes they keep making. Pope reaches and gambles. Drummond reaches and gambles with less effort. Happy go lucky attitude by the franchise players got his ass cut from the Olympic team. That didn't piss him off enough to work on correcting his mental weaknesses on the court. Many of us could list pages of defects for each individual player. My previous high school coach and then college coach gave me a long list of my defects as a player. That helped me a lot. It is important to list defects in players who are looking to score $25 million a year without doing the wort to earn that money. Our management might be dumb enough to do it all again. Repeat the same thing that has the Pistons handcuffed now would be insane. Somehow I still hope a sign and trade can be worked out.

I know it must burn you Oracle when I compare Detroit to Boston or the Bucks. But I don't know why you get so pissed off. Do you really like watching Andre Drummond look like he needs to drop a turd on the hardwood every night? Maybe he should change his diet. I know you will never accept the reason that he just doesn't care very much about playing the right way. He has it all. That is what counts for him. And by handing Pope huge money before he has worked to earn it just doesn't make any sense. It takes incredible work to become a really good NBA player. All the foolish talk about other teams making big offers for Pope only happens because Piston management has nothing positive going on to make this team better. They are afraid to blow up this team. Let those teams make the big mistake not the Pistons. Get in sound financial shape with hard working players until the team gets in position to draft a player who will deserve the big money. Did I spell it out more clearly for you? The real problem is the same thing you complain about with my posts. I get too personal and mean and fail to meet the current accepted George Orwellian doctrine of kindness. It bothers you so maybe you should create some type of PHOBE for people like me and condemn me to the concentration camp for all Piston nay sayers.

I know that I won't be upset once the regular season starts next year if big changes are not made and the status quo continues to oblivion. I suffered through recording and watching every Piston game with the exception of two vacations. I won't bother to watch the continuing nightmare. You will be the person who will say damn it all I am so tired of watching this dull team. Why do the Pistons keep getting beat the same way game after game? You will get hopeful before the trade deadline but nothing will happen again. Two years ago Detroit played the very same way they did this year with the exception of the lucky streak that happened in March and April. Before that this team was floundering. Jackson was still dominating the basketball while others stood around. Drummond was still AWOL on the defensive boards failing to think quickly enough to box out his man. Nobody was blocking shots. Guards were still allowing too much dribble penetration. Drummond and the guards were the worst in the league at defending pick and roll. Johnson had not yet had his spirit broken by the franchise players and the head coach though. That was different for sure.

Now is the most important time for the Detroit Pistons future. Either get on the right road or face an even more dreadful dull games. I see no sign yet that Piston management will do the right thing. Just because Piston management has boxed themselves in with bad decision making and are squirming to cover up what will be coming next fall, there is no reason why I should be happy about the current state of affairs with the Pistons. It will be necessary to move on like all of my good friends and former Piston fans have already done. They never like to even talk about the Pistons. They don't care as much as Drummond doesn't care. If you still care and have to watch Andre Drummond dance around in the circle before games and then trot out for the opening tip, I will feel sorry for you. I will stick to college basketball and spend a little time watching the Bucks and Celtics. Good luck.

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Oracle

Post  Sparma on Tue May 23, 2017 9:19 pm

I think the projection, at present, looks pretty silly; maybe it didn't at the time it was made. If the projection was that the Pistons would be conference contenders 3-4 years from then, that now becomes being conference contenders in 2-3 years. That sounds optimistic, at best. I don't see it.

But what do I know? I did watch the games when Reggie arrived. He struck me as a gifted, but limited, PG. I'd say the same about AD at C, but doubly so. Those are two shaky pillars.

As best I can tell, we've got a bunch of solid players in a league where the champions and true contenders are laden with stars and superstars. Philly's trying to collect stars. They may fail, but I appreciate their bold risk, high reward, approach.

You cite me saying "I'm glad I wasn't among those...." You turn that into "I'm sure you don't mean "Glad" in the sense that we failed to do as well ...." You raise an interesting point, but what I meant was simply that I'm glad not to have made a mistaken prediction, glad to have been in alignment with reality, as it's unfolded. At the same time it sucks that we haven't done as well as hoped for. As fan, I'm disappointed. I doubt I'm alone in sometimes being happy to be right as prognosticator while at the same time disappointed as fan. That's an ambivalence I'll have to live with, and again I'm guessing I'm not alone in dealing with that kind of mixed reaction.

Oracle wrote:
Sparma wrote:I'm glad I wasn't among those making that projection, which looks pretty silly now.

The projections don't look silly to me at all, and I'm sure you don't mean "Glad" in the sense that we failed to do as well as we could have.

But you won by being the most pessimistic about the team, however if any of us knew that Reggie was going to be hurt and never fully recover, I doubt that any of us or the fans & media would have made those predictions, so it's like a false positive.

The amazing thing is that they only loss 7 more games, which as I've said is hardly a major collapse, but I also realize that these types of situations can expose problems you didn't know you had.

In the article that Ballin used to speak about KCP, where he left out the thing that to SVG & KCP's credit never use is the injury thing. That article traced his drop off to the time after his injury and he was never the same, sort of the same thing that happened to Stanley Johnson.

To their credit, they don't even use Reggie's injury as an excuse, but these things are real and the character of these guys is to try and play through them even though they probably shouldn't sometimes. BTW, I really believe Reggie will be back to his dominant self next season.

So I'm not making a big issue about this, but I just thought the projections were off for a reason and "silly" wasn't the right word.
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Sparma

Post  Oracle on Tue May 23, 2017 8:49 pm

Sparma wrote:I'm glad I wasn't among those making that projection, which looks pretty silly now.

The projections don't look silly to me at all, and I'm sure you don't mean "Glad" in the sense that we failed to do as well as we could have.

But you won by being the most pessimistic about the team, however if any of us knew that Reggie was going to be hurt and never fully recover, I doubt that any of us or the fans & media would have made those predictions, so it's like a false positive.

The amazing thing is that they only loss 7 more games, which as I've said is hardly a major collapse, but I also realize that these types of situations can expose problems you didn't know you had.

In the article that Ballin used to speak about KCP, where he left out the thing that to SVG & KCP's credit never use is the injury thing. That article traced his drop off to the time after his injury and he was never the same, sort of the same thing that happened to Stanley Johnson.

To their credit, they don't even use Reggie's injury as an excuse, but these things are real and the character of these guys is to try and play through them even though they probably shouldn't sometimes. BTW, I really believe Reggie will be back to his dominant self next season.

So I'm not making a big issue about this, but I just thought the projections were off for a reason and "silly" wasn't the right word.
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Projections

Post  Sparma on Tue May 23, 2017 4:26 pm

I'm glad I wasn't among those making that projection, which looks pretty silly now.

Oracle wrote:
Sparma wrote:I think Philly already can be projected as a conference contender in 3-4 years.  
@Sparma: That was the projection for this team several months ago by damn near everybody from fans to talking heads!If you believe that the path to anything is a straight line, and please take this as a joke, but you seriously need to get out more Smile 

@Ballin: You left out the reason for KCP's slide, he gave a clear one.

@Don: It's impossible to go back to a place you've never been! Ballin believes your pessimism is justified, and I agree that we all should take everything with a grain of salt, there are many outstanding questions.

I do believe that SVB will do something unexpected, why you guys think that's not possible, when they've done just that every year baffles me as much as losing an additional 7 games throws everybody into a tizzy, but it is what it is.

However, there is reality and just plain throwing stuff on the wall and praying. There are real constraints on what can be done, with many competing considerations. There is no reality in anything Don is saying, but there are grains of truth. It's just that none of that is strung together into anything coherent enough to fit into any reality this team can achieve.

Don, you joked about me being concerned, and earlier it was a joke to me, but the level of nasty posts directed personally at players, calling into question their character is beyond the pale. It's fair to criticize their game, but you don't know anybody on this team well enough to question their character, yet you do all of the time.

It's just an unjustified and unnecessary level of vitriol, and you never used to be that kind of person, so yes, the concern was real.
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Post  Oracle on Tue May 23, 2017 4:17 pm

Sparma wrote:I think Philly already can be projected as a conference contender in 3-4 years.  
@Sparma: That was the projection for this team several months ago by damn near everybody from fans to talking heads!If you believe that the path to anything is a straight line, and please take this as a joke, but you seriously need to get out more Smile 

@Ballin: You left out the reason for KCP's slide, he gave a clear one.

@Don: It's impossible to go back to a place you've never been! Ballin believes your pessimism is justified, and I agree that we all should take everything with a grain of salt, there are many outstanding questions.

I do believe that SVB will do something unexpected, why you guys think that's not possible, when they've done just that every year baffles me as much as losing an additional 7 games throws everybody into a tizzy, but it is what it is.

However, there is reality and just plain throwing stuff on the wall and praying. There are real constraints on what can be done, with many competing considerations. There is no reality in anything Don is saying, but there are grains of truth. It's just that none of that is strung together into anything coherent enough to fit into any reality this team can achieve.

Don, you joked about me being concerned, and earlier it was a joke to me, but the level of nasty posts directed personally at players, calling into question their character is beyond the pale. It's fair to criticize their game, but you don't know anybody on this team well enough to question their character, yet you do all of the time.

It's just an unjustified and unnecessary level of vitriol, and you never used to be that kind of person, so yes, the concern was real.
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Philly

Post  Sparma on Tue May 23, 2017 3:13 pm

Maybe saying that I regard Philly as a success story in the making is more accurate, but I'm willing to go into some tortuous semantics for anyone willing to read on.

In terms of performance on the court, there are degrees of success. Being a consistently winning team is one level.  Being a contender for a conference title is another.  Being a championship contender is another.  

Off the court, there may be additional markers for success. One mark of success can be having put the pieces together for a very bright future.  That may be paired with being horrible in present performance.  For instance, the Kansas City A's were horrible in the late 60's on the field.  In retrospect, I think it's fair to say they'd already been tremendously successful in one way, namely in garnering the top flight talent that pretty clearly projected forward to serious success on the field.  Can we say that Charlie Finley was already successful in 1968 when his team was, what, in 9th place?  In one sense, yes, I think, certainly in retrospect.  Even in 1968 I think we could fairly have said that Finley was a success in the making.  I'm not projecting 3 championships to Philly, but it's in that sense that Philly already can be said to be successful, or at at least a success in the making.  They've already put together the elements (including that #3 pick this year, LA's next year as well as their own high pick) to be outstanding in the future.  That's a mark of success.  I'd be happy to shower SVG with accolades if he's done in the past what quite probably will make for high performance in the future.  

I think Philly already can be projected as a conference contender in 3-4 years.  I'll take that as a present level of achievement beyond what Detroit's shown in the past 9 years.  I thought the Pistons might be on their way to the first level of success of being a consistent winner, but not so fast.

So as not to get too hung about the word "success" itself, another mark of attainment is: would you trade your team's future for that team's future?  I'd gladly trade Detroit's future for Philly's.  That much seems straightforward. Going back to "success," that preferability strikes me as one of its measures.  

If Philly goes totally off the rails down the line, I'll need to admit that I was wrong in  thinking that they were a success in the making.  But even then, I don't think I'd need to admit that I didn't have good grounds for thinking they were a success in the making or for thinking it probable that they'd already (anno 2017) been successful in laying the foundation for a bright future.  But if we return to this debate 3, 4, 5 years down the line, I'll be happy to admit whatever should be admitted at that point.

lemonpen wrote:
Sparma wrote:Again, I think Philly's a success story, certainly in comparison with us.  So that's an example, although admittedly it's a story in a making.  Let's talk again in two years.  I think they're close, and that's with plenty of setbacks.

Beyond that, what are we really talking about?  If we're talking about building through the draft, that's happened plenty of times.  If it's about building through the draft, maybe not so much.  So if the question becomes where have I EVER seen a champion built through high picks (rather than a question about tanking per se): the Bulls dynasty was essentially built through high picks, with Jordan at #3, Pippen (with a trade), and Horace Grant (admittedly at 10).  That cadre of high picks constituted the core of the first half of that dynasty.  

Maybe the building through high picks doesn't work so well anymore because small & medium market teams can't hold on to those picks?  But OKC came close to a championship with high picks in Westbrook, KD, and Harden.  They decided they needed to trade Harden, then lost KD.  Still, that's a good recent example of building through the draft.

Another consideration: the Hinkie strategy may be part of a tiny sample size.  Plenty of teams will tank for a season or so.  And some teams are bad for years, with high picks, like Sacramento.  But I think the strategy of deliberately and ruthlessly tanking year after year may be rare.  Arguably, there's a success rate (or soon will be) of 1 out of 1 (100%) for the fully dedicated, all in, long term, Hinkie approach.

Compare that to the alternatives.  How many successful strategies available to the Pistons can we point to in today's NBA?  Maybe Dumars could have pulled off something like what Ainge later did/ is doing in Boston, late in the Pistons run.  The AI fiasco would have had to have turned out differently for that to have worked.  If not tanking, what are the realistic alternatives for us leading to contention?  The first couple years of the SVG regime made a lot of sense to me, yet here we are.

Maybe a small/ medium market team just can't contend by way of the draft anymore?  Possibly so, but what's the alternative?  I've praised SVG (before this season) for upgrading incrementally, but the relatively low ceiling paired with that strategy was always foreseeable.

SVG's earned another year to do it his way, but that way's looking pretty limited now.  Tanking's not the way to go?  Could well be, but I prefer it to being mediocre for another decade, if there isn't a serious upturn partly in next season.  I foresee some improvement, but nothing close to awe inspiring.  By contrast, post-Cleveland, Philly's one of the likely contenders, unless it turns out they can't hold on to their wealth of talent.  But if that's their fate, that brings us back to why it makes sense for a team like Detroit to take bold/ wild risks, in a market like ours and without superstar talent on the roster.  


Oracle wrote:
Sparma wrote:Going Hinkie?  Won't happen this year, but I'd take Philly's future over ours.  In that way, the Hinkie-initiated "Process" is well on its way to working.  They're sitting on the #3 this year & four 2nd rounders in a deep draft.  They get the Lakers' 1st round pick next year (unless #1) which should be a really high pick & their own should be high once again.   A couple years from now, if health is with them, they should be becoming a good team, with the potential to be great.  Can't say the same about the Pistons who took a lower risk path with less potential reward.  I'd be happy to bring in Hinkie to blow things up next year if things remain tepid.  We've been largely irrelevant for the past 9 years; that trend could easily go on another decade.  Last year notwithstanding, SVG's earned another year to do it his way, but then it's fair to blow it up.  Dream on about Boston's pick, LA's pick, or Porzingis.   We'll likely stay the course and float forward.  The only time I see SVG going for the huge gamble (a la Cousins) is when he becomes convinced his gig may be in genuine jeopardy.  I'd don't see that realization hitting him this summer.  Maybe by the trade deadline though.

Concerning the D which Cool mentioned, the stats do tell part of the story: the Pistons don't turn the ball over much, which contributes heavily to solid defensive numbers.  Beyond that, I read that they generally get back on D (even though I've heard complaints about AD), which again makes for solid numbers.  Those two strengths go together/ are compatible with their direct playing of D not being good, which is I think the feature of their D that Cool was highlighting.
Sparma, when and where have you EVER seen this Hinkie approach work? It doesn't, it's hard to build up from nothing, but in this method, you also have to specify your end game.

The only hope of that approach is that you build up enough assets to swing a trade for an established star, but the obstacles to making that happen are HUGE for a couple of reasons.

First, the assets are low cost assets, so they typically don't amount to much and secondly, good luck getting a star to come to a losing franchise on the Hinkie dream of future promise.

Guys are frustrated with the process here and oddly panicked after an understandable setback where we lose about 7 more games, hardly a major setback.

Dreaming is more in the Hinkie thinking, it's ALL Dream nothing is guaranteed, the LA/Boston picks are in play, that's reality, and there are two ways to participate. Either directly or indirectly as a 3rd team to make things work.

KP is an opportunity but I admit that it's low because NY would be a fool to let him go, still, we have the assets to make it work and Drummond is only a 5 year pro and in big men, that's very young and generally before they bloom
Oracle wrote:.

Define success.  What exactly has Philly accomplished.
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Post  lemonpen on Tue May 23, 2017 1:55 pm

Sparma wrote:Again, I think Philly's a success story, certainly in comparison with us.  So that's an example, although admittedly it's a story in a making.  Let's talk again in two years.  I think they're close, and that's with plenty of setbacks.

Beyond that, what are we really talking about?  If we're talking about building through the draft, that's happened plenty of times.  If it's about building through the draft, maybe not so much.  So if the question becomes where have I EVER seen a champion built through high picks (rather than a question about tanking per se): the Bulls dynasty was essentially built through high picks, with Jordan at #3, Pippen (with a trade), and Horace Grant (admittedly at 10).  That cadre of high picks constituted the core of the first half of that dynasty.  

Maybe the building through high picks doesn't work so well anymore because small & medium market teams can't hold on to those picks?  But OKC came close to a championship with high picks in Westbrook, KD, and Harden.  They decided they needed to trade Harden, then lost KD.  Still, that's a good recent example of building through the draft.

Another consideration: the Hinkie strategy may be part of a tiny sample size.  Plenty of teams will tank for a season or so.  And some teams are bad for years, with high picks, like Sacramento.  But I think the strategy of deliberately and ruthlessly tanking year after year may be rare.  Arguably, there's a success rate (or soon will be) of 1 out of 1 (100%) for the fully dedicated, all in, long term, Hinkie approach.

Compare that to the alternatives.  How many successful strategies available to the Pistons can we point to in today's NBA?  Maybe Dumars could have pulled off something like what Ainge later did/ is doing in Boston, late in the Pistons run.  The AI fiasco would have had to have turned out differently for that to have worked.  If not tanking, what are the realistic alternatives for us leading to contention?  The first couple years of the SVG regime made a lot of sense to me, yet here we are.

Maybe a small/ medium market team just can't contend by way of the draft anymore?  Possibly so, but what's the alternative?  I've praised SVG (before this season) for upgrading incrementally, but the relatively low ceiling paired with that strategy was always foreseeable.

SVG's earned another year to do it his way, but that way's looking pretty limited now.  Tanking's not the way to go?  Could well be, but I prefer it to being mediocre for another decade, if there isn't a serious upturn partly in next season.  I foresee some improvement, but nothing close to awe inspiring.  By contrast, post-Cleveland, Philly's one of the likely contenders, unless it turns out they can't hold on to their wealth of talent.  But if that's their fate, that brings us back to why it makes sense for a team like Detroit to take bold/ wild risks, in a market like ours and without superstar talent on the roster.  

Oracle wrote:
Sparma wrote:Going Hinkie?  Won't happen this year, but I'd take Philly's future over ours.  In that way, the Hinkie-initiated "Process" is well on its way to working.  They're sitting on the #3 this year & four 2nd rounders in a deep draft.  They get the Lakers' 1st round pick next year (unless #1) which should be a really high pick & their own should be high once again.   A couple years from now, if health is with them, they should be becoming a good team, with the potential to be great.  Can't say the same about the Pistons who took a lower risk path with less potential reward.  I'd be happy to bring in Hinkie to blow things up next year if things remain tepid.  We've been largely irrelevant for the past 9 years; that trend could easily go on another decade.  Last year notwithstanding, SVG's earned another year to do it his way, but then it's fair to blow it up.  Dream on about Boston's pick, LA's pick, or Porzingis.   We'll likely stay the course and float forward.  The only time I see SVG going for the huge gamble (a la Cousins) is when he becomes convinced his gig may be in genuine jeopardy.  I'd don't see that realization hitting him this summer.  Maybe by the trade deadline though.

Concerning the D which Cool mentioned, the stats do tell part of the story: the Pistons don't turn the ball over much, which contributes heavily to solid defensive numbers.  Beyond that, I read that they generally get back on D (even though I've heard complaints about AD), which again makes for solid numbers.  Those two strengths go together/ are compatible with their direct playing of D not being good, which is I think the feature of their D that Cool was highlighting.
Sparma, when and where have you EVER seen this Hinkie approach work? It doesn't, it's hard to build up from nothing, but in this method, you also have to specify your end game.

The only hope of that approach is that you build up enough assets to swing a trade for an established star, but the obstacles to making that happen are HUGE for a couple of reasons.

First, the assets are low cost assets, so they typically don't amount to much and secondly, good luck getting a star to come to a losing franchise on the Hinkie dream of future promise.

Guys are frustrated with the process here and oddly panicked after an understandable setback where we lose about 7 more games, hardly a major setback.

Dreaming is more in the Hinkie thinking, it's ALL Dream nothing is guaranteed, the LA/Boston picks are in play, that's reality, and there are two ways to participate. Either directly or indirectly as a 3rd team to make things work.

KP is an opportunity but I admit that it's low because NY would be a fool to let him go, still, we have the assets to make it work and Drummond is only a 5 year pro and in big men, that's very young and generally before they bloom.

Define success. What exactly has Philly accomplished.
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Boston Celtics management outstanding under Danny Ainge and more is to come in this off season

Post  cool breeze on Tue May 23, 2017 1:27 pm

The most important hire for Boston was finding the smartest coach in the game. Not only is Brad Stevens a smart strategist, but he is a no nonsense man who is not afraid to tell his players where they stand and provide insight has to ho they can become a better fit for the team and therefore get more playing time. He has no clicks. Nobody is treated special. He makes his players become better players. His ability to help young players grasp the NBA game and give them confidence and support is amazing. Danny Ainge knows that whoever he adds to the team, Brad Stevens will get the best form of player that guy can ever be.

The long term planning is outstanding for the Celtic brand. How exciting it must be to follow Boston down this path to greatness. While Stevens has blended a group of mis fits into securing the Eastern conference regular season top record, Ainge has worked harder than any other GM in the business going out himself on long winter nights watching college players now for several seasons. And he is constantly in contact with his head coach asking what the coach's biggest perceived needs will be moving forward to create a champion. This season Boston has over 30 million in cap space. They do not need to trade the top pick on the draft. Why not add top talent and let Stevens work his magic? Then Ainge will add another key experienced All Star caliber player to the roster. My hunch is that player will be Gordon Hayward. I love the high basketball IQ Hayward possesses. Hayward has already played for Brad Stevens. I am sure his first choice of teams will be Boston this summer. So last season Boston was a big player in the draft. They still were able to add Horeford. This summer they get to select the best player in the draft. And by the time Detroit gets ready to make another 12th or 13th pick in the 2018 draft, Boston will be right up near the top as they have the rights to Philly's number one pick next summer's draft. Incredible brilliance by one man named Danny Ainge. If he is not NBA executive of the year, something is wrong. Thinking ahead is important. Too many times our Piston GMs have been caught up in trying to path holes in a sinking ship. Dumars went out and signed Ben Gordon and Charlie V. Those two extremely weak defensive players set this whole thing in motion where the Detroit Pistons are no longer known as a team to fear. Whether is be Dumars or Van Gundy, the entire identity has evaporated where even in losing seasons in the old days, Piston players played intense defense and opponents might win but they knew that they had been in a big struggle. Now we have cream puffs hand selected by management because the entire focus is on offense and outside shooting. The combination of cream puff combination of Drummond and Leuer is the current choice by management moving into the future. Good luck with that. Bring back the Teal uniforms until the focus gets back to playing defense the right way. That was the identity of the Detroit Pistons in the past. That is what connects with basketball fans who live in Michigan. Stop bringing in management types who do not know Michigan basketball fans. You need a product to fit the customer's needs. We miss Bill Laimbeer's style where he could care less what people thought. He wanted to win and you win by stopping your opponent in whatever way is necessary. Ben Wallace brought that model back after Laimbeer retired. Enter Charlie V, Greg Monroe and now Andre Drummond. Yes we need to identify our current players for who they are so that is why they need to wear the TEAL. Stan Van Gundy and his coaches can wear pink suits and high heals.

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SVB/ Trader Jack/ Dumars

Post  Sparma on Tue May 23, 2017 12:48 pm

BallinD: "Is SVB more Trader Jack or Dumbo (latter stage GM) Dumars?"

Great question. I'd say SVB resembles Trader Jack more, but clearly without his level of success.

Essentially, SVB goes for incremental upgrades, and has shown a great willingness to trade, like Trader Jack.

Didn't later Dumars go a long stretch without a trade, again and again saying they'd done their due diligence but had found nothing that would improve them? I can't see SVB going that route. They'll continue to deal. A Leuer & #12 for a legit shooter would be the kind of deal I'd predict.

Did think of a similarity between SVG and later Dumars: they both directly countered/ ridiculed the trade mongering industry. I'm not even sure about the extent to which that rumor mill was around with Trader Jack.

When later Dumars did pull the trigger, it was a doozy: Billups for AI. That seemed to signal a massive rebuild, freeing up $20 mil. Curiously, I heard of a distant parallel at DBB: Reggie for Afflalo, then to be released to relief financial pressure. Bet SVB won't go for that kind of former pillar for cap relief move. Not yet.

Dumars could see the end coming and took the drastic AI measure to cope. Sadly, it failed. Trader Jack got rid of Rodman at the end, but basically held on to the dynasty as long as he could. We've got no dynasty going, but I see SVB resembling Trader Jack more in that they'll basically hold on to the roster they've built, rather than going for the fundamental restructuring that Dumars gestured at. Maybe at the end, they'll go for the big rebuild, vying for more time.

Dumars went for the desperation trade in including a #8 pick to get rid of Gordon. Can't see SVB doing that. Gores had let Dumars buy out Rip, but I think his real support for Dumars ended there. Joe was getting desperate, feeling his time was running out, and decided to move money forward a year. Disaster. Not going to happen with SVB yet, because for the time being they have a higher ownership backing than later Joe did. During that 5th year we might see a desperation move or two though.

SVB's dealing yielded some nice results (Harris, Morris), but I'm not seeing a Laimbeer coup in the sizeable sets of trades. So, similar procedure, lesser results.

I loved Dumars, and was one of his last defenders. He did something annoying though, maybe increasingly over time, which was to pose as a kind of basketball visionary. We needed to trust that he could see things, eg about evolving away from set positions, that us mere mortals couldn't. I think that SVG comes across more as a company man, a team player, than the later Dumars, who became the face of the franchise. In that way, SVB resembles Trader Jack more.

Sadly for SVG, what I foresee is an uptick this year, then stagnation, which will render his position extremely tenuous when his five year run is up. In that way, he's beginning to resemble the later Dumars. He's not quite living on borrowed time from ownership perspective yet, but he likely will be after this season.


BallinD wrote:To me one question leads to another.

@Sparma: Is SVB more Trader Jack or Dumbo (latter stage GM) Dumars?  That is a legitimate question and it speaks to me to what kind of man he is.  His (SVG) back is clearly to the wall with this version of the Pistons and we have all agreed we will not get to the next level without a star, but continue to circle the drain in mediocrity.  And with all our main competitors for the also-rans during the Lebron era, having a star (Bucks, Wizards, Celts, Pacers,) will we settle for wishful-thinking outliers of improbable improvement from players who have never been great or good on any level with the exception of the flawed Weggie or flawed Dre of 2015-16, who both have likely plateaued and are in decline.  Will he swing for the fences or just try for a single and hope it leads to a rally?  (meaning he stumbles to an eighth seed next year and thinks he hit a home run.)

The late-season swoon when the bench players outplayed the starters and nobody from the "Core" stepped up at all! is all I need to know that changes are imperative.  But that's just me.  Color me "not hopeful" if we sign KCP to a big extension and do nothing else except draft at 12 and nibble around the edges of the team.  

Per Fansided Duncan Smith: "In spite of his torrid start to the season, KCP ended up having a worse overall shooting season in 2016-17 than he did in 2015-16, and his defense suffered as well. By the end of the season, his field goal percentage had dropped to 39.9 percent from 2015-16’s 42 percent, and his true shooting was down from 52.1 percent to a mere 51.9 percent. In addition, only Reggie Jackson and Andre Drummond had worse on-court defensive ratings than KCP’s 107.7.  Grade D+"

I feel that Cool Breeze pessimism is fully justified without taking a risk to get measureably better.  I am super tired of mediocrity and players mailing it in when the great Pistons tradition is still a recent memory and I see no player who hates losing, maybe except our worst shooter, SJ.

Meanwhile Dre proclaims he is our leader and says "we just need Rest," and chilling time with the homies to recharge for next year's battles.  Not inspiring at all!  It's a cliche, but it's true: No risk, no reward; No Guts no Glory.
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"Beard: Cap Issues, roster decisions loom for Pistons"

Post  cool breeze on Tue May 23, 2017 12:14 pm

This is a well thought out article. Stan Van Gundy would most likely be fired if the decision came down to blowing up this team and making a new plan that could bring success 3 or 4 years from now. The key thing that Beard brought out is that if that happens being SVG created this team, he would then have to be fired. The owner would have to pay SVG for two more years. SVG is in damage control mode as I thought. He feels that he needs to protect what he has created regardless of the facts. So go on ignoring that his starting center is flawed.

One thing I question from the article was Beard's assumption that if Andre returns to his All Star form, things would change for the better. Andre's selection to be added to the All Star roster in my opinion was orchestrated by Andre's powerful agent. Drummond was cut from the Olympic roster and was not deemed to be good enough by his peers to play with them when they went after the Gold medal. The alpha dog players of the NBA know the truth. Drummond"s free throw shooting was horrible two seasons ago. His ability to think quickly and react properly on defense prevented him from becoming a shot blocker that season as well. He did give better effort that made up for basic mistakes but Andre did not box on on the defensive boards at any time which ended up allowing a lot of 2nd and 3rd chance opportunities and that kept him off the coveted Olympic roster. Now to make matters worse Drummond has added more weight and played with less energy then he did in his contract season. His ability to recognize situations quickly on defense has become even worst because his desire to play with high energy dissolved before the end of December of last season. Why does it have to be all or nothing with the Pistons? Why can't Stan Van Gundy admit reality and do what is necessary to remove Andre Drummond and get possibly another good player or draft pick and still keep his job? Stan does have one strike against him by insisting on using an offensive system that features a dominate point guard. Notice what happened in the last game between Boston and Cleveland. Thomas couldn't play so Smart took over the point guard role and the ball and player movement greatly increased and the shots started falling, Cleveland players had to work harder on defense and they of course won the game. Somehow Brad Stevens had no problem switching from a dominate point guard offense to a offense that worked for his players. Stan Van Gundy is a smart man. He has been a good coach in the past. Why can't he change his offense to fit this team? Just by removing Drummond and keeping the rest of the team intact, our Pistons will look so much better as a team. Beard is worried that Detroit would have no replacement for Drummond. I disagree because there is some NBA team that will bite on a trade involving Drummond and we could get a functional center added to the roster who will provide the inside defense this team needs. Drummond refuses to contemplate filling that need. Van Gundy makes the trade to secure another first round pick added to our 12th pick and an experienced center to go with Boban who has issues running the court fast enough to provide paint protection. Yet Boban would be no worse than Drummond as a paint protector.

I sense that this is an important moment for the future of the Detroit Pistons. Standing pat is not the thing to do now. Recognize the reality that this team as constructed will not work. Be patient if you are the owner and give SVG a chance to correct the problems. It might require firing the top assistant who handles the guards especially the point guards. More players must become involved in the offense. Detroit has the players who can make a new offensive system work. If in the future the team secures a alpha dog point guard like Isiah Thomas along with long lean high percentage long range shooters, then change back to this style of offense. Give the fans a team that is fun to watch. Bring in one or two older vets who have been part of a championship team to work with guys like Johnson and Ellenson. Everyone seemed to be happy when Blake was didn't come back this past season. What many didn't know is his impact in practice and off the court working and talking with the young guys like Stanley Johnson. Johnson missed Blake this past season big time. The dysfunctional young highly paid athletes ran the team into the ground. There was nobody who could stop it from happening among the players. The head coach allowed it to happen. Stan Van Gundy should have learned a big lesson from it and he needs to make sure it doesn't happen again. The key thing to do is to trade Andre Drummond this summer before training camp. Start with a fresh look. Everything will change for the better.

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One more time - Management stop the smoke and mirrors - Blow it up!

Post  cool breeze on Tue May 23, 2017 2:53 am

Oracle thinks that something is wrong in m life. News flash, my like is wonderful but thanks for your concern. I don't hate any Piston player Oracle. I am disturbed with Piston management. Grown men who cannot admit they have made some big mistakes. It is pretty cowardly bank on fooling the fans using smoke and mirrors to keep the status quo. Meanwhile, management's designated franchise player is causing more damage to the story line that this past season was just a fluke and of course Reggie's knee was a huge obstacle when Andre Drummond declared that he is the team leader and is requesting that his teammates just need "rest". Some of us thought that Andre should be tired of resting. Not so. Reporters are calling for better spirit. That means they admit the team chemistry is a real problem.

I am worried that management will make another blunder and sign Pope. Because of my concern I try to use logic and reason as to why it would be stupid to sign another below average player to a mega contract because a team like the Nets might snatch him away from us. No Oracle we would not be losing Paul George if Pope walks. I would not blame Pope for leaving for better money. But I will blame management if they pull another dumb ass move like they did with Drummond at contract time. First off, don't broadcast what you are going to do relating to agents who want more than their client is worth? Look around the league and see who might be able to play better or at least as well as Pope can play now. There should be no mystery relating identifying if you have a player on your roster who is All Star caliber. I don't see any player on the Pistons who is All Star material but maybe Pope is a great practice player and just can't transform his hard work to real games. What happened to the Stan Van Gundy the man who stood tall and told Josh Smith to hit the road? I think Smith played a lot harder than Stan's franchise players who have bigger contracts than Smith.

By listing my observations on Pope's game and identifying his weaknesses I hope that one management guy working for the Pistons might remember some of those flaws Pope has that prevents him from being a solid 2 guard. That is not hate. Pope is lacking important things that should prevent him from getting anything more than $8-$10 mil/year. My feeling is frustration with the news plants by Piston management that is designed to prepare us fans for what is to come. They will match any offer Pope any team who dares to cherry pick our players. Both Drummond and jackson's value have dropped faster than the cost of crude did a few years ago. Fans also believe that the head coach has some flaws himself with the most damaging being his inflexability to create an offense that fits his current players better. So Piston management seems to look like they feel boxed in. News flash you won't be letting any fans down if you don't sign him. If you do sign him, he will be another player you cannot trade but will want to after next season. There has been too much gambling. One power forward is thrown in the garbage and a new higher priced power forward comes to town who is worse. Management is ready to make change in one position a lot but somehow feels point guards, centers and 2 guards are different. Meanwhile one power forward who was beloved by many Piston fans was the hero in Cleveland last night. He seemed to always be in the dog house and out of the rotation on many lousy Piston teams. Yet he always played hard with passion and was fundamentally sound on both ends of the court. Jonas Jerebco got sweet revenge on the Detroit Pistons management when he lit a fire under his teammates asses last night to steal one game from Cleveland. It might not seem like much but for me it proves the one thing I have believed for a long time. High basketball IQ, intense physical conditioning, and heart will usually win out over pure talent that is gifted at birth to go with a low basketball IQ. We had one player this season in Stanley Johnson who lost a lot of weight while getting in superior shape but had his spirit or heart twisted by the coaching staff and Stan's special hand picked franchise players who will be resting more this summer while Johnson works his butt off. This is all on Piston management. They have created a monster. A guy like Henry Ellenson needs to be around older players like Jonas Jerebco. Jonas would take Henry aside and help him more than any Piston assistant coach. What Piston player helped Ellenson this past season? Notice that Jason Kidd picked up Jason Terry to help the young guys on the Bucks team. And Stan wonders about team chemistry. Nobody helps anybody on this Piston team. The official orders have been issued. Rest.

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Forum

Post  BallinD on Tue May 23, 2017 1:18 am

To me one question leads to another.

@Sparma: Is SVB more Trader Jack or Dumbo (latter stage GM) Dumars?  That is a legitimate question and it speaks to me to what kind of man he is.  His (SVG) back is clearly to the wall with this version of the Pistons and we have all agreed we will not get to the next level without a star, but continue to circle the drain in mediocrity.  And with all our main competitors for the also-rans during the Lebron era, having a star (Bucks, Wizards, Celts, Pacers,) will we settle for wishful-thinking outliers of improbable improvement from players who have never been great or good on any level with the exception of the flawed Weggie or flawed Dre of 2015-16, who both have likely plateaued and are in decline.  Will he swing for the fences or just try for a single and hope it leads to a rally?  (meaning he stumbles to an eighth seed next year and thinks he hit a home run.)

The late-season swoon when the bench players outplayed the starters and nobody from the "Core" stepped up at all! is all I need to know that changes are imperative.  But that's just me.  Color me "not hopeful" if we sign KCP to a big extension and do nothing else except draft at 12 and nibble around the edges of the team.  

Per Fansided Duncan Smith: "In spite of his torrid start to the season, KCP ended up having a worse overall shooting season in 2016-17 than he did in 2015-16, and his defense suffered as well. By the end of the season, his field goal percentage had dropped to 39.9 percent from 2015-16’s 42 percent, and his true shooting was down from 52.1 percent to a mere 51.9 percent. In addition, only Reggie Jackson and Andre Drummond had worse on-court defensive ratings than KCP’s 107.7.  Grade D+"

I feel that Cool Breeze pessimism is fully justified without taking a risk to get measureably better.  I am super tired of mediocrity and players mailing it in when the great Pistons tradition is still a recent memory and I see no player who hates losing, maybe except our worst shooter, SJ.

Meanwhile Dre proclaims he is our leader and says "we just need Rest," and chilling time with the homies to recharge for next year's battles.  Not inspiring at all!  It's a cliche, but it's true: No risk, no reward; No Guts no Glory.


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Trades?

Post  Sparma on Mon May 22, 2017 7:58 pm

BallinD: "We can always come up with a reason for it not to work."

True.  But it's also true that fans can always come up with a reason why it would work.

I can't rule out that certain trades could work.  

But I do make three specific predictions:

1) The Pistons will not trade for the #1 pick.
2) The Pistons will not trade for the #2 pick.
3) The Pistons will not trade for Porzingis (by the beginning of the season).

Once each of those statements proves to be true, what does that mean?  It could mean (a) that SVG left a wonderful possibility on the table, as Don suggests concerning a trade deadline deal for Boston's pick.  In that case, SVG's a fool.  Secondly, it could mean that some other team offered more (eg Butler for the #1 rather than Drummond).  A variant would be that SVG could equal or exceed that winning offer, but didn't.  Maybe he was timid or cowardly in that case.  Thirdly, the fact that the trades don't happen can mean that SVG's neither foolish nor cowardly, but that the speculated on trades just weren't available to him within the realities of the Pistons and the NBA.  

I see #3 as the default interpretation, to be adopted unless some specific info emerges to trump it (eg Sac's GM saying that he'd been offered a better deal for Cousins [which might have been AD]). Maybe my background assumption that SVG's a reasonably competent person who'd like to improve the team serves as a justifying premise that some would not accept.

It's a fan forum, and I've joined in the speculation myself concerning trades, with Isaiah Thomas.  I do think Stan's held to an unfair standard though, when interpretations #1 or #2 are adopted even when there's no evidence for them.  There's plenty that we can slam Stan for (his handling of the PGs, eg), but I want to hold him accountable in relation to what he's actually able to do.




BallinD wrote:We can always come up with a reason for it not to work.  Who knew we could get Rasheed Wallace for scraps and scrubs?  Who knew we could get Weggie, a starting caliber PG for scraps and scrubs.  Who knew we could get Tobias for a broken Jennings and Illy.  The point is to get out there, get a third team involved, go forward with a plan.  Am I saying it will be easy or I have all the answers?  NO.  But sharks circle when there is blood in the water and trades get done under all sorts of circumstances, including the recent trade of Cousins for scrubs and scraps.

And there is this to address the talent argument: Det. News: Pistons Need Spirit

Oracle wrote:@Don, having FAILED to address the only point of the post because as usual, your comments are poorly thought out and wrong, then you proceed to unleash a wave of hate at KCP & Drummond. I have no idea what's going on in your life, but obviously something is very wrong, you used to have very well thought out comments... in all caps, but well thought out.

@Ballin - I think Lemonpen made a good point about KP, and I'm backing off not adding the 1st round pick, which likely won't get a shot by SVG. I doubt throwing in KCP makes a lot of sense to NY since they'll be giving us a guy on his rookie contract and taking on Drummond's 25M, why would they entertain KCP's cost?

The ECF is interesting. I was going to post yesterday that I don't believe in Cleveland's conversion to greatness. By finishing 2nd, they avoided the Wizards, who likely would have lost to them, but who match up a lot better and would have a chance to beat them. The good news for Cleveland is that they match up with GS very well, but they may still lose.
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Off Topic 2

Post  Oracle on Mon May 22, 2017 7:05 pm

If you haven't seen Trump dancing with the Arabs, here it is set to "Rock the Casbah"  lol lol

https://twitter.com/BeardedGenius/status/866036160128327681
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Post  Oracle on Mon May 22, 2017 7:00 pm

Ok, I found this funny, but a lot of people on twitter thought it was distasteful... hell that's what made it funny to me  lol lol lol

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Sparma & Ballin

Post  Oracle on Mon May 22, 2017 6:52 pm

@Sparma - It's not optimism, just following the logic.
1. They were better this year, but you know the issues.
2. They'll be better next year barring injury
3. Stan will learn a lesson, but this is my only fear, that he learns the wrong one

BTW, the right kind of tanking can be good. There were years where Joe should have tanked. It allows us to get a star capable player and still keep the good players on the roster. A full tank is what I don't like because it throws everything out.

@Ballin - Apologies, what I said did sound like closing the door before anybody tried it, I didn't mean to say it that way. Hell, if throwing in KCP works, I'm all for it. I like KCP, but to get a high upside star in here trumps that, IMO.
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More Than One Way

Post  BallinD on Mon May 22, 2017 6:16 pm

We can always come up with a reason for it not to work.  Who knew we could get Rasheed Wallace for scraps and scrubs?  Who knew we could get Weggie, a starting caliber PG for scraps and scrubs.  Who knew we could get Tobias for a broken Jennings and Illy.  The point is to get out there, get a third team involved, go forward with a plan.  Am I saying it will be easy or I have all the answers?  NO.  But sharks circle when there is blood in the water and trades get done under all sorts of circumstances, including the recent trade of Cousins for scrubs and scraps.

And there is this to address the talent argument: Det. News: Pistons Need Spirit

Oracle wrote:@Don, having FAILED to address the only point of the post because as usual, your comments are poorly thought out and wrong, then you proceed to unleash a wave of hate at KCP & Drummond. I have no idea what's going on in your life, but obviously something is very wrong, you used to have very well thought out comments... in all caps, but well thought out.

@Ballin - I think Lemonpen made a good point about KP, and I'm backing off not adding the 1st round pick, which likely won't get a shot by SVG. I doubt throwing in KCP makes a lot of sense to NY since they'll be giving us a guy on his rookie contract and taking on Drummond's 25M, why would they entertain KCP's cost?

The ECF is interesting. I was going to post yesterday that I don't believe in Cleveland's conversion to greatness. By finishing 2nd, they avoided the Wizards, who likely would have lost to them, but who match up a lot better and would have a chance to beat them. The good news for Cleveland is that they match up with GS very well, but they may still lose.


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Oracle

Post  Sparma on Mon May 22, 2017 5:44 pm

Oracle: "I noticed that you have a lot of assumptions associated with both methods, but only negative ones associated with not tanking."

Not really. I tried an edit to clarify the problems of tanking, but got hijacked while editing. btw, this site doesn't seem entirely secure. Tanking can go wrong in a number of ways, such as major injuries sidetracking things and probabilities not falling your way. Philly has illustrated both problems to a certain extent. Also, if a bunch of teams tank in a given year there's trouble. If a bunch of teams adopted the Hinkie approach longterm, that'd really jeopardize the strategy.

We seem to be in agreement that some bounce back is to be expected.

I don't see the road taken as leading to contention for the Pistons. Do you, even though you're clearly more optimistic about the team than I am? Tanking could be the path to contention. Maybe not, but if we're still in a lukewarm spot deeply into next season, I'd like to find out. At that point, I'd prefer it to the mediocre alternatives that would appear to be available.




Oracle wrote:
Sparma wrote:SVG's earned another year to do it his way, but that way's looking pretty limited now. Tanking's not the way to go? Could well be, but I prefer it to being mediocre for another decade, if there isn't a serious upturn partly in next season. I foresee some improvement, but nothing close to awe inspiring. By contrast, post-Cleveland, Philly's one of the likely contenders, unless it turns out they can't hold on to their wealth of talent. But if that's their fate, that brings us back to why it makes sense for a team like Detroit to take bold/ wild risks, in a market like ours and without superstar talent on the roster. 

I noticed that you have a lot of assumptions associated with both methods, but only negative ones associated with not tanking.

Why would SVG doing it his way be limited? We were expected to challenge the Cavs this year, but injury and mismanagement doomed that plan, but none of the facts on the ground have changed, but damn near to a man on this board, they feel the same as you... Why?

Philly looked better this season, but better in a weaker conference should be taken his a huge grain of salt.

The bottom line is that there is no sure way to getting to the top, a quick look at the odds shows that they are long for most teams, and a lot has to go right to make it work.

That's why I'm so shocked at how drastic the desire is to change everything based on a crap shoot as wild as blowing everything up, which should be the last resort when nothing else works.

Blowing up relies on a lot of praying, first you need to tank to get as high a pick as possible and tanking is no guarantee of getting a top pick if there are better tankers out there. Then if you do get a top pick, there is no guarantee that the pick will be worth a damn.

You can't build things up by magic, SVG has done almost everything right, he and Gores are setting up the infrastructure to attract talent, provide a community benefit and show as much loyalty to players as possible in this cut throat business. 

Contrary to popular belief, we have a lot of talent on this team and we'll be better at the start of next season than the team predicted to finish as high as 3rd in the east when it was a better conference than the west two seasons ago.

In short the pessimism does not reflect the reality, IMO. Success is not always or mostly a straight line, there are setbacks. The test is how we recover from the setback, which is why I agree that SVG has earned another shot, another setback and we'll know something is very wrong.
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So true

Post  Oracle on Mon May 22, 2017 5:39 pm

http://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/for-the-culture-10-nba-teams-that-need-course-corrections-in-the-offseason/ wrote:Jackson and franchise center Andre Drummond are close friends, but it's not about that. Off-court chemistry only matters if it translates on the floor. Despite the fact that the pieces fit on paper, the Pistons often looked like they didn't love playing together. Unless you have overwhelming talent, it's hard to win when your players aren't on the same page

That's what happened to us when Reggie came back, the players were no longer on the same page, and they tried to bring Reggie along, but SVG disrupted the process.
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