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The radio comments by Stan Van Gundy is troubling for those who watched Drummond play last season

Post  cool breeze on Sun May 28, 2017 8:36 pm

Either this was just one of many spin games where smoke and mirrors are used to distort the facts or Stan Van Gundy did not pay attention to the details regarding his players performances. It looked as if SVG wasn't watching much as he would turn his back to the game action at times to rant to the guys on the bench. But he did stand up a lot and was animated. Who was he watching and what was he looking for as a coach? No Stan was at one time no dummy. He was a good assistant coach earlier in his career. It has to be the spin game being desperate that the new arena will be nearly empty again. He needs support from the fans. He needs people to buy season tickets. But after last season who will be the fool? Maybe after KCP signs his deal, he can get together with Andre and Reggie to buy thousands of season tickets and then give them away and get a tax write off. Will the kids turn up one time and then start turning down the tickets preferring to play ping pong for 3 hours instead. If they have no table then maybe the kids will go to the games.

The truth as to be what is the most plausible rational reality. No team wants Andre Drummond unless the Pistons throw in $10 mil a year until the contract is terminated. No team wants Reggie Jackson so this is the same situation. Finally, once Pope signs his insane deal which to all is a great business decision, then Pope will not be trade material either. Some day maybe at the end of next season, Stan will meet with Tom Gores with his head hanging down and will tell the owner the real truth about how other NBA teams think about our Piston stars. The owner might have to shell out $30 million a year just to move the 3 core players. But maybe the Pistons will get themselves up to the 8th pick in the draft again. Incredible planning goes into building a winning team in Detroit. As SVG says his team is solid at every position. Just a little tweaking is needed like maybe trading Harris and Johnson. Maybe if it is true that those two trouble makers got too nasty with Stan's 3 pet players in the team only meeting challenging the SVG designated team leaders, great things will happen. The Big Three will wake up and become completely different players. Both Andre and Reggie will be among the best defenders in the NBA. Pope will become a good ball handler and see the court better along with averaging 42% on his 3 point shots. Just get rid of the trouble makers Stan. You always tell the truth. Maybe Harris distracted Andre Drummond when Whiteside went up and tipped in the winning basket over Andre who didn't jump. Yes fans just don't know the whole story as Stan bravely told everyone on the radio.

Here I go slipping up again and showing how mean I am. Now I will be scolded by the Oracle once he reads this post. I will have to memorize the following information to get on the right program. Reggie Jackson is a superior player and that is why he earns superior money. Andre Drummond is a superior player and that is why he earns even more money than Reggie. KCP is a superior player among all the starting guards in the NBA and that is why he will be making superior money too. How can we lose when we have three superior players. Stan better be careful. If he keeps spinning these stories Piston fans will start believing that poor coaching is the entire reason why Detroit was close to being the worst team in the NBA over the last half of last season. While other GMs who didn't make the playoffs are careful and conservative in the amount of hype they offer, Stan is confident in his players who showed very little interest in actually playing basketball last season.

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Re: FORUM

Post  cool breeze on Sat May 27, 2017 1:48 am

Oracle wrote:Last year KCP was our BEST player, Harris our most consistent, but there isn't any competent analysis that places these two at the top of this team last year, and I stress last year because I believe Reggie  is #1.

For years people on this board have known that it's the playoffs that where we separate the men from the boys, we've known that if you can't step up there, that's not a good sign, and we've shipped dudes out of town for failing to step up when the lights get bright.

So I post a FACT and it's not a good enough fact for DX & Don. Everybody here would wish the sample size was bigger, but It represents a data point that's important for a rookie contract player, but somehow it's a negative, it's easier to champion bench players who have no record or push players that can't fly on airplanes.

None of us are paid to make good basketball decisions, even the talking heads aren't paid to do that, they're paid to make good analysis and guesses, but not decisions. BTW, DX, you keep bringing up paying KCP when the business case has been presented numerous times, but it's not sinking in.

The consensus isn't always right, but it's rarely wrong when both the talking heads, and the people paid to make those decision agree.

The majority of them see what I've been telling you guys, so pardon me if I know Don't propaganda is right, and the complete and total inconsistency of this focus on one of our best players.

I'm moving on to more profitable pursuits of discussion, you can't convince some people of climate change, so why waste time. You can't convince some people the business reasons teams do things.

It's all emotional "I want thinking", or as Don has suggested, if they don't do as I say, let's all take our balls and go home... WTF???

This Piston talk by us is much like the climate change subject some of you bring up from time to time. We have no power for make any decisions. We all think differently about what to do about the amazing Pope and his upcoming $20 to $25 million dollar contract which some of you believe will be a good thing because it is good business. Can ti be good business if Pope plays exactly the same way for the next 4 seasons and during that time there are 20 other guards that are clearly better than him but nobody wants a guy who is not an outstanding guard when they make $20 to $25 million. Some posters believe that Pope should be rewarded because he played out his rookie contract as a Piston. It wasn't that the Pistons won the championship and Pope was a critical player in the rotation that beat up on all the other players, Pope simply should be rewarded because he was loyal for his entire time during his rookie contract. I say what the hell else was he going to do? How in hell will the Pistons ever trade him if he doesn't get better than he he now if they play him $20 to 25 million. Again how much is Pope's agent asking? Doesn't that sink in for some of you that believe it would be a good business decision because Piston management explained it that way. No it makes no sense. And it was not a dumb thing to do when the Pistons let Monroe walk over to the Bucks. I would rather have Monroe in Detroit than Drummond but Monroe is not a starter for the Bucks. His agent wanted too much money. John Hammond tried to trade Monroe but there were no takers due to the size of Greg's contract. Letting a player walk is OK with me and it might be really smart. Then Van Gundy could get his butt to work and try to find a better replacement for less money. This team is a loser so what is the difference? Maybe one of the draft picks will be 10 times better than Pope. Then I will be in total agreement that Detroit should resign that guy. Pope has proved next to nothing. Oracle brings up this idea that Pope was the Pistons best player last season. Why would anyone even contemplate that in the first place. No Piston player was good enough to start on any NBA playoff team this past season. So if you are comparing low basketball IQ players with each other it means nothing. Hey Pope is the best player on the team. We can't let him go because of that. Let's not think about how he played. How the other players played compared with other players in the league. No we have a real gem. He must be worth $20 to $25 million. I keep bringing up the amount because that just is not registering with some fans who want this deal to get done fast. Are you losing sleep over the Pope signing. Well rest assured yo will make up for it once the season begins. You will sleep soundly early in the first quarter again. How anyone wants to watch this same crew is amazing to me. You can't actually be watching the games. This team is horrible and it will continue.

As for the big climate change thing why do some of you bring that subject up as if anyone who doesn't agree as to how much money and how much sacrifice should be made by tax payers to accomplish what? I don't believe that there is anyone believe that the climate is changing. Our bodies are changing from birth until death. Nothing stays the same. Why are we not sacrificing for the potential bigger problem "THE GRAY MATTER". How does it all work and will the day come when the gray matter can't hold our solar system together and the gravity of the suns sucks us in until we are all vaporized? People were wearing badges when the environmentalist movement because big. On his death bed, Abby Hoffman proudly proclaimed that his organizational abilities used to create that movement totally destroyed the USA as we know it. He had his soldiers marching to the beat of his drum which was to change our country into a totalitarian type of nation modeled after the Soviet Union. Yet the marchers had no clue what it was like living with total fear for your life that you might took the wrong way and end up in Siberia. History repeats itself and the total suffering just cannot be stopped because there are so many out there in every generation who love to follow the leader. Hoffman was another Marxist leftist like Tom Hayden, Bill Ayers and Bernadine Dorn who there would always be many eager suckers out there to build an army around. They alone had all the answers to complex questions. So many leaders of causes have the "SECRET". Please send in money. I will tell you the secret. I will tell you how to solve climate change. Just sacrifice. You are not giving enough and that is why the climate is changing so fast. Turn off your heat in the winter and sacrifice because you are killing the climate by creating those carbons. Meanwhile the professor who long stopped using the scientific method is chain smoking while typing up another request for a 50 million dollar grant. He will suggest that the elected officials who appoint the energy regulators throw another tax on your gas bill. Still with all that marching and pointing fingers at the non believers if you walk the length if a football field and use the field as a comparison to man's ability to stop the climate from changing and know that at least 80% of climate change is not man made which would be 80 yards, then you should hold on to your wallet and not bite on the propaganda. They want more grant money. There is never enough grant money. The same companies that cause man made climate change are involved in finding ways to allegedly stop it. Meanwhile they are taking lavish trips around the world on your dime talking about climate change. Does that remind anyone of Al Gore? Al took only one science course in his entire college career and his grade was less than a C. Yet he made over $500,000,000 dollars in one year as the self proclaimed leader of all the marchers. Find those doubters those dirty bastards who are not on the believers list. Believers of what? Who in hell doesn't believe in climate change? I don't know anyone in that category.

I only bring this up because everyone I knew growing up picked up other folks junk because our parents told us to even though we didn't create the mess. We would go fishing and pick up the plastic or beer cans floating on Lake Huron that others threw off their boats. Every good boy scout did the right thing. Then the people who used to throw out the junk that I had to pick up started wearing the environmentalist membership buttons. They were proud and looking for a party. I wanted to wear a Rocky and BowWinkle button because those two guys were my heroes outsmarting the leftist Marxist leaders who were always giving speeches deliberately telling lies to stir and manipulate the crowd of willing followers. Who were those leaders anyone? Yes Boris Badinoff and Natasha. Rocky would call on Dr. Peabody to sort out the real facts that the crowd was oblivious to and wound up like a top by the creators of the indoctrination program. What would Dr. Peabody think of this Pope issue? Should they sign him or should they look for a better player being the entire team is dysfunctional and weak at every position and has no chance of beating any good team for years to come? Well we could build around our best player can't we? No because he is not one of the best 2 guards in the NBA . Oh well it is a good business decision. We just can't lose him for nothing. I just got around to watching the post game interviews from last night. Avery Johnson was speaking and I now know why I like this guy so much. He is really smart. Johnson broke down the game and why Boston lost and what he needs to do to get better before training camp. That was refreshing as hell to hear that from this young man. He is articulate and driven. their is no doubt that without major injuries Avery will come back better every year he plays in the NBA. And guess what Avery Johnson is playing hard every minute in every quarter and he makes a little over $8 million a year. I would jump as paying what Pope's agent is asking. Who wouldn't? Two different players on different teams and there is no comparison between Johnson and Pope. You can actually see what Johnson did after Thomas went down with that hip injury. He stepped up and became a leader. And he is young. That is the kind of player that I am waiting for relating to the Pistons. Piston management forces some of us to watch other teams because it seems our management cannot recognize who is good and who is not so good. Then they settle for average and give that guy $20 plus million dollar contract. The only person who should agree that Pope needs to be making $20 to 25 million a year is Pope's agent. That is the only person. It is not rational for anyone else but Pope and his agent to say yes we much sign him whatever the cost. Keep the agent happy. That is the game. He will throw the Pistons a bone someday. Yes for sure and it is a fact that someone has figured out how to stop the climate from changing too.

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Stirring The Pot

Post  BallinD on Fri May 26, 2017 5:51 pm

Just adding my three cents to the discussion Bro's, hope you don't mind.  Slow news day, again  Surprised

Oracle wrote:
deusXango wrote:
Oracle wrote:Last year KCP was our BEST player, Harris our most consistent, but there isn't any competent analysis that places these two at the top of this team last year, and I stress last year because I believe Reggie  is #1. Shocked I hope you're right. I really believe that Reggie underestimated how long he needed to recover to become a starter, because the last time this happened to him he was a low use backup behind Westbrook and had plenty of time to recover.  Agree, but his Chicago game, hard to forgive that, nor his high-usage, low BBIQ probe, probe, probe, pass at last second if I must (brick) half court game nor his porous defense, nor the fact he apparently can't push the pace.  Don't like him, don't trust him.  But wanna give him a chance to get his value up so we can trade him.

For years people on this board have known that it's the playoffs that here we separate the men from the boys, we've known that if you can't step up there, that's not a good sign, and we've shipped dudes out of town for failing to step up when the lights get bright. Jerry Stackhouse for Rip Hamilton is a classic example of that...good call. That's exactly what I was thinking. Well, since none of the core (KCP, included) wanted to even play hard enough and smart enough down the stretch to get us into the playoffs this year, this point is irrelevant.  Last year showed no heart, no fight, (and it was in a contract sho-n-prove year, so that to me speaks volume.  It should to everybody)

So I post a FACT and it's not a good enough fact for DX & Don. Everybody here would wish the sample size was bigger, but It represents a data point that's important for a rookie contract player, but somehow it's a negative, it's easier to champion bench players who have no record or push players that can't fly on airplanes. Awww, you remember my foot being in my mouth about Royce White. I've got to give it to you Oracle, you've got a hell of a memory. lol  That was so memorable, it's hard to forget a fear of flying incident  lol  Actually that was a data point, not a fact. From that data point (PER) you inferred he was equal to or better than those other SG who were in the playoffs, but PER is only one stat. It does not even come close to indicating the better player, and in a short 4-game window where we lost every game, it cannot be a determining factor.

None of us are paid to make good basketball decisions, even the talking heads aren't paid to do that, they're paid to make good analysis and guesses, but not decisions. BTW, DX, you keep bringing up paying KCP when the business case has been presented numerous times, but it's not sinking in. It has sunk in, just not the way you want me to perceive it, because I'm talking business...business with the Pistons coming out on top. That's my point, it's the ONLY way for us to come out on top, any other way lets KCP walk away with us getting nothing, ala Monroe. I've always found that you get better outcomes when you respect the person you have to deal with.  Nobody is advocating letting him walk for nothing, at least I never have.

The consensus isn't always right, but it's rarely wrong when both the talking heads, and the people paid to make those decision agree. Hopefully they'll get this and a number of other important issues right. I also believe that they got where we should have finished this season right, but nobody, including us could have predicted how Reggie's injury would affect us on the court, in the locker room, and SVG being totally confused as to what to do. It truly brought the entire team down and it got worse as the season wore on. The consensus is usually wrong.  Most of those consensus guys do not follow the games to the nuance as we do, and many are simply parroting the party line (SVG and his media slappies).

The majority of them see what I've been telling you guys, so pardon me if I know Don't propaganda is right, and the complete and total inconsistency of this focus on one of our best players. There's only one player being discussed for a max. contract and regardless if he's the best player, he's playing a very flawed game on a mediocre team with a payroll already over the CAP. Totally agree, so the focus is natural and proper, my apology. Trust me, I don't like the numbers and if the NBA doesn't raise the CAP significantly, this is going to be a huge issue.
Agree, but it already is huge for the direction of the franchise.  I am sick and tired of almost everybody saying this guy is a core player moving forward. (avg SG, poor shooter, poor handles, decent defense, does not make others around him better)
I'm moving on to more profitable pursuits of discussion, you can't convince some people of climate change, so why waste time. You can't convince some people the business reasons teams do things. Okay. Fine. So what's your 2 cents on what we should do with the #12 pick? Good question! I'm still evaluating, but I either want a big man or a PG. I'm pissed that we likely won't get Zach Collins, who I really like. In the PG category I like Donovan Mitchell, but 12 may be too soon for him. Man, I really wish we had a 2nd rounder this year.
Cool I wish we would trade Leuer/Hilliard for another 1st rounder, if possible.
It's all emotional "I want thinking", or as Don has suggested, if they don't do as I say, let's all take our balls and go home... WTF??? I don't remember Don backing off like that, but my computer has been sick, perhaps I missed that. Yes he said it if you look at his posts, he almost wants a boycott, but that's frustration talking and likely boredom from recovering from injury.
Oracle, I didn't mean to offend...get your rest, have a cup of java, and then come on strong, as you usually do. Very Happy
You didn't offend, and you also responded very well... we all just want to WIN NOW BABY  CoolWe are not equipped at all to win now.  not at all. We have to readjust our thinking...We are objectively Not That Close At All! And our current team does not have an identity, does not play hard for each other and is not fun to watch.  I and others would much rather see a build-up with better pieces from a good foundation.  This is SVG/Media Slappies smoke and mirrors!  

Which of these players would you like to see the Pistons select in the upcoming draft?
• 38%
Donovan Mitchell I like his "future microwave potential, is it possible he is a mini-poor-man's westbrook?
(36 votes)
• 34%
Justin Jackson: We have a ton of wings.  Could he ever escape GR (I'm so tired of us doing this, while other better teams find a way to play their rookies.
(33 votes)
• 28%
Luke Kennard: Best shooter in the draft, (No Brainer) great feel for the game, playmaking ability (We super need to become a better passing team)  If he is a JJ Reddick or Kyle Korver lite, do we really care that he is not as athletic as other prospects in that case?
(27 votes)
96 votes total
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When you're on the clock and your shoe phone battery dies...

Post  Oracle on Fri May 26, 2017 3:10 pm

Well, that's the only excuse for picking the mighty Austin Daye over better talent  lol

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Good reply DX

Post  Oracle on Fri May 26, 2017 1:46 pm

deusXango wrote:
Oracle wrote:Last year KCP was our BEST player, Harris our most consistent, but there isn't any competent analysis that places these two at the top of this team last year, and I stress last year because I believe Reggie  is #1. Shocked I hope you're right. I really believe that Reggie underestimated how long he needed to recover to become a starter, because the last time this happened to him he was a low use backup behind Westbrook and had plenty of time to recover.

For years people on this board have known that it's the playoffs that where we separate the men from the boys, we've known that if you can't step up there, that's not a good sign, and we've shipped dudes out of town for failing to step up when the lights get bright. Jerry Stackhouse for Rip Hamilton is a classic example of that...good call. That's exactly what I was thinking.

So I post a FACT and it's not a good enough fact for DX & Don. Everybody here would wish the sample size was bigger, but It represents a data point that's important for a rookie contract player, but somehow it's a negative, it's easier to champion bench players who have no record or push players that can't fly on airplanes. Awww, you remember my foot being in my mouth about Royce White. I've got to give it to you Oracle, you've got a hell of a memory. lol  That was so memorable, it's hard to forget a fear of flying incident  lol

None of us are paid to make good basketball decisions, even the talking heads aren't paid to do that, they're paid to make good analysis and guesses, but not decisions. BTW, DX, you keep bringing up paying KCP when the business case has been presented numerous times, but it's not sinking in. It has sunk in, just not the way you want me to perceive it, because I'm talking business...business with the Pistons coming out on top. That's my point, it's the ONLY way for us to come out on top, any other way lets KCP walk away with us getting nothing, ala Monroe. I've always found that you get better outcomes when you respect the person you have to deal with.

The consensus isn't always right, but it's rarely wrong when both the talking heads, and the people paid to make those decision agree. Hopefully they'll get this and a number of other important issues right. I also believe that they got where we should have finished this season right, but nobody, including us could have predicted how Reggie's injury would affect us on the court, in the locker room, and SVG being totally confused as to what to do. It truly brought the entire team down and it got worse as the season wore on.

The majority of them see what I've been telling you guys, so pardon me if I know Don't propaganda is right, and the complete and total inconsistency of this focus on one of our best players. There's only one player being discussed for a max. contract and regardless if he's the best player, he's playing a very flawed game on a mediocre team with a payroll already over the CAP. Totally agree, so the focus is natural and proper, my apology. Trust me, I don't like the numbers and if the NBA doesn't raise the CAP significantly, this is going to be a huge issue.

I'm moving on to more profitable pursuits of discussion, you can't convince some people of climate change, so why waste time. You can't convince some people the business reasons teams do things. Okay. Fine. So what's your 2 cents on what we should do with the #12 pick? Good question! I'm still evaluating, but I either want a big man or a PG. I'm pissed that we likely won't get Zach Collins, who I really like. In the PG category I like Donovan Mitchell, but 12 may be too soon for him. Man, I really wish we had a 2nd rounder this year.
Cool
It's all emotional "I want thinking", or as Don has suggested, if they don't do as I say, let's all take our balls and go home... WTF??? I don't remember Don backing off like that, but my computer has been sick, perhaps I missed that. Yes he said it if you look at his posts, he almost wants a boycott, but that's frustration talking and likely boredom from recovering from injury.
Oracle, I didn't mean to offend...get your rest, have a cup of java, and then come on strong, as you usually do. Very Happy
You didn't offend, and you also responded very well... we all just want to WIN NOW BABY  Cool
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These Pistons got us stirred up loosing, what'll we do when they start winning?

Post  deusXango on Fri May 26, 2017 12:00 pm

Oracle wrote:Last year KCP was our BEST player, Harris our most consistent, but there isn't any competent analysis that places these two at the top of this team last year, and I stress last year because I believe Reggie  is #1. Shocked I hope you're right.

For years people on this board have known that it's the playoffs that where we separate the men from the boys, we've known that if you can't step up there, that's not a good sign, and we've shipped dudes out of town for failing to step up when the lights get bright. Jerry Stackhouse for Rip Hamilton is a classic example of that...good call.

So I post a FACT and it's not a good enough fact for DX & Don. Everybody here would wish the sample size was bigger, but It represents a data point that's important for a rookie contract player, but somehow it's a negative, it's easier to champion bench players who have no record or push players that can't fly on airplanes. Awww, you remember my foot being in my mouth about Royce White. I've got to give it to you Oracle, you've got a hell of a memory. lol

None of us are paid to make good basketball decisions, even the talking heads aren't paid to do that, they're paid to make good analysis and guesses, but not decisions. BTW, DX, you keep bringing up paying KCP when the business case has been presented numerous times, but it's not sinking in. It has sunk in, just not the way you want me to perceive it, because I'm talking business...business with the Pistons coming out on top.

The consensus isn't always right, but it's rarely wrong when both the talking heads, and the people paid to make those decision agree. Hopefully they'll get this and a number of other important issues right.

The majority of them see what I've been telling you guys, so pardon me if I know Don't propaganda is right, and the complete and total inconsistency of this focus on one of our best players. There's only one player being discussed for a max. contract and regardless if he's the best player, he's playing a very flawed game on a mediocre team with a payroll already over the CAP.

I'm moving on to more profitable pursuits of discussion, you can't convince some people of climate change, so why waste time. You can't convince some people the business reasons teams do things. Okay. Fine. So what's your 2 cents on what we should do with the #12 pick?
Cool
It's all emotional "I want thinking", or as Don has suggested, if they don't do as I say, let's all take our balls and go home... WTF??? I don't remember Don backing off like that, but my computer has been sick, perhaps I missed that.
Oracle, I didn't mean to offend...get your rest, have a cup of java, and then come on strong, as you usually do. Very Happy
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LOL, you were right the first time...

Post  Oracle on Fri May 26, 2017 5:29 am

Last year KCP was our BEST player, Harris our most consistent, but there isn't any competent analysis that places these two at the top of this team last year, and I stress last year because I believe Reggie  is #1.

For years people on this board have known that it's the playoffs that where we separate the men from the boys, we've known that if you can't step up there, that's not a good sign, and we've shipped dudes out of town for failing to step up when the lights get bright.

So I post a FACT and it's not a good enough fact for DX & Don. Everybody here would wish the sample size was bigger, but It represents a data point that's important for a rookie contract player, but somehow it's a negative, it's easier to champion bench players who have no record or push players that can't fly on airplanes.

None of us are paid to make good basketball decisions, even the talking heads aren't paid to do that, they're paid to make good analysis and guesses, but not decisions. BTW, DX, you keep bringing up paying KCP when the business case has been presented numerous times, but it's not sinking in.

The consensus isn't always right, but it's rarely wrong when both the talking heads, and the people paid to make those decision agree.

The majority of them see what I've been telling you guys, so pardon me if I know Don't propaganda is right, and the complete and total inconsistency of this focus on one of our best players.

I'm moving on to more profitable pursuits of discussion, you can't convince some people of climate change, so why waste time. You can't convince some people the business reasons teams do things.

It's all emotional "I want thinking", or as Don has suggested, if they don't do as I say, let's all take our balls and go home... WTF???
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Re: FORUM

Post  deusXango on Fri May 26, 2017 3:57 am

Why isn't trading Leuer and Jackson being discussed on this forum? If/when Baynes leaves and we traded those two players, wouldn't there be enough money to retain KCP? We certainly should be able to package them for something, shouldn't we? If we can't, why dig the money hole any deeper with another ridiculous contract?!
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My 2 cents on #12

Post  deusXango on Fri May 26, 2017 3:39 am

This is being sold as a crap shoot draft position for the Pistons (giving SVG/Bower wiggle room for failure), but for me it's simple; draft the most NBA ready player and don't reach for potential. NBA ready by my definition is a player that's played for a quality colligate program, been coached by one of the NCAA's best, and consistently worked at improving his game which shows by how rapid and how productive he's been over at least 3 years...he's matured also and knows the importance of defense and team play.

Justin Jackson fits the bill and is sure to be there at #12. He doesn't play the high-flying, sexy ESPN game, just intelligent and efficient. Think Rip Hamilton 2.0 as our new SG at 6' 8", plus he can defend his position and is basketball smart! Let's face it people, KCP is destined to be a S & T casualty (if there's any sanity left in the world); he deserves to be paid as Oracle has championed him to be, but we can't pay him what he and his agent wants, based on what he's shown so far. It's time for a reset at that position. Reggie has no trade value and we'd be foolish to trade Tobias, simply because other franchises/GM's covet him.

If SVG is such a basketball genius (as some suggest) why don't he understand the importance of ball movement and passing, as opposed to ball dominance and low percentage shots? If we can't get a PG to play with KCP, to compliment his skills, let's get an unselfish "brain" to pair with Reggie in the backcourt...it may make a world of difference.
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Re: FORUM

Post  cool breeze on Thu May 25, 2017 10:21 pm

deusXango wrote:
cool breeze wrote:
Oracle wrote:Rankings for 2 guards during the playoffs last year.

Now that is funny Oracle. Pope has played 4 total playoff games in his life and he didn't hit a money shot.                
Damn, that was all that needed to be said Don! Talk about your minuscule sample size...sheesh.

Oracle, this is why I don't like these intellectual, analytic, meaningless, numbers. With a good Cuban cigar and some quality, aged brandy, they probably make for some of the most boring conversations, that only the jaded high-brows can appreciate. I'm not taking sides (You and Don have one of the greatest, most passionate exchanges about the Pistons going that I've witnessed in quite some time...passionate and respectful), but your statement of "We simply can't sign a superior SG because right now we can't afford one when SG's at KCP's level are going for 25M, what do you think a better one will cost. The other avenue is to hope one develops into a great SG, but we're stepping back again" struck me as you being disingenuous; I believe in my heart of hearts that you know better. I'm not looking at who out performed KCP in last years playoffs, but who he "outplayed."

In the top 10 SG's there are only 3 that have contracts that SVG/Gores is thinking of signing KCP to and they've earned what they have! We tried to sign Danny Green, but he turned us down taking less money from San Antonio than we offered. KCP is nowhere in the class of CJ McCollum or DeMar DeRozen, but the analytics says in 4 games, as opposed to 11-20 games, KCP was the sh!t. Of those on last years playoff list I'd gladly take Ian Clark, Allen Crabbe, Norman Powell, Kyle Anderson, and Justin Anderson over KCP and none of them would cost the Pistons $20-25 million a year! That ain't hating on KCP, it' loving to watch a winning, exciting, home team go to war and let the intelligence be on the floor. There are some players who weren't in the playoffs last year that would be cheaper than KCP that I'd love to have, like Jordan Clarkson to name one. I ain't into blind hypotheticals so I named names to be considered.

82 games of disappointing, inconsistency, followed by 4 decent games earns a $20+ million contract? I'm keeping in mind we've been waiting on some marked consistency for years, like we've been waiting on some FT improvement and consistency on defense from our franchise player that's never come; Oh, we've got some hope...We're all hoping that Reggie returns to form, because if he doesn't, his value (which is already threw the floor) will be a black mark on the face of this franchise, simply because we were too delusional/stubborn to trade him when we could get something for him. My whole point is this, we've got a political knucklehead (endowed with a near mystical gift of gab) who's greatly overvalued our teams worth, a team that's done nothing to earn what they're being paid.

dX it is good to read something that confirms my suspicions that I might NOT have forgotten everything I ever knew about the game of basketball. The propaganda will come on strong as the season ticket sales drop off to nothing. Stan's big ace in the hole seems to be his firm belief that Caesars arena could offer the Detroit Pistons a great advantage. While other NBA front office staffs are working hard to figure out what went right and what went wrong last season, the owners puppet is banking on the new arena to save his job. My gut feeling is that the owner has Stan Van Gundy dangling on a string with possibly his desire to have close relationships with the players and making them feel like they are the boss not the coach,GM. But then I might be way off course. When nothing makes sense I go off course at bit at times.

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Post  deusXango on Thu May 25, 2017 9:59 pm

cool breeze wrote:
Oracle wrote:Rankings for 2 guards during the playoffs last year.

Now that is funny Oracle. Pope has played 4 total playoff games in his life and he didn't hit a money shot.                
Damn, that was all that needed to be said Don! Talk about your minuscule sample size...sheesh.

Oracle, this is why I don't like these intellectual, analytic, meaningless, numbers. With a good Cuban cigar and some quality, aged brandy, they probably make for some of the most boring conversations, that only the jaded high-brows can appreciate. I'm not taking sides (You and Don have one of the greatest, most passionate exchanges about the Pistons going that I've witnessed in quite some time...passionate and respectful), but your statement of "We simply can't sign a superior SG because right now we can't afford one when SG's at KCP's level are going for 25M, what do you think a better one will cost. The other avenue is to hope one develops into a great SG, but we're stepping back again" struck me as you being disingenuous; I believe in my heart of hearts that you know better. I'm not looking at who out performed KCP in last years playoffs, but who he "outplayed."

In the top 10 SG's there are only 3 that have contracts that SVG/Gores is thinking of signing KCP to and they've earned what they have! We tried to sign Danny Green, but he turned us down taking less money from San Antonio than we offered. KCP is nowhere in the class of CJ McCollum or DeMar DeRozen, but the analytics says in 4 games, as opposed to 11-20 games, KCP was the sh!t. Of those on last years playoff list I'd gladly take Ian Clark, Allen Crabbe, Norman Powell, Kyle Anderson, and Justin Anderson over KCP and none of them would cost the Pistons $20-25 million a year! That ain't hating on KCP, it' loving to watch a winning, exciting, home team go to war and let the intelligence be on the floor. There are some players who weren't in the playoffs last year that would be cheaper than KCP that I'd love to have, like Jordan Clarkson to name one. I ain't into blind hypotheticals so I named names to be considered.

82 games of disappointing, inconsistency, followed by 4 decent games earns a $20+ million contract? I'm keeping in mind we've been waiting on some marked consistency for years, like we've been waiting on some FT improvement and consistency on defense from our franchise player that's never come; Oh, we've got some hope...We're all hoping that Reggie returns to form, because if he doesn't, his value (which is already threw the floor) will be a black mark on the face of this franchise, simply because we were too delusional/stubborn to trade him when we could get something for him. My whole point is this, we've got a political knucklehead (endowed with a near mystical gift of gab) who's greatly overvalued our teams worth, a team that's done nothing to earn what they're being paid.
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Don: OMG am I getting my good friend back :)

Post  Oracle on Thu May 25, 2017 8:36 pm

Don, you said a few good things in this post, and I'm sure we both want the same thing, we're just coming at it from different directions.


Don wrote:Now for more material that you can ridicule me on. Reggie Bullock could be a better option for the Detroit Pistons depending on his health. I believe he is a better defender, can protect the ball better on the dribble and finish better at the rim than Pope. His court vision is better as well and he can recognize situations on the court and make his teammates better with his high basketball IQ if given the opportunity. If not Bullock then given the same amount of minutes, Stanley Johnson would be a better option. Give him the green light to fire up those off balance 3 pointers. Even Hilliard might be a better option than Pope if Hilliard could get the love that Pope has received. Maybe if the Pistons used their pick on a guard, that guy would be better than Pope. How can I make such outrageous statements Oracle? No I won't, these are legitimate arguments to have! Bullock is at least as good a defender, maybe better, they're pretty close when locked in, but Bullock has the physical tools advantage with that long reach and 2 inch height advantage. He's not a better dribbler or finisher at the rim at all, but he does shoot the 3 ball better. His biggest problem is that he can't stay healthy, and that's a HUGE risk! Hilliard isn't even on the table for discussion, I'd pick Stanley first, but he's got to get his confidence back. When I think about Stanley, I'm not sure it's SVG's shooting change that's his problem. He hasn't been the same since that injury last year, he never regained his offensive form.

Once you face the fact that our options are limited are SG, it's either S&T or sign, see what happens and then trade, then you realize that we need to look elsewhere in the short term.

Piston management has spoken. End of story(There is a story behind this story. It's the business side, they know it makes no sense to piss off KCP and force him into a Monroe situation where we lose everything, what's the point. They know that they can sign him when they can't sign any other decent SG, but once signed, then they have the ability to trade him if needed. It's all about making smart business moves, not propaganda, stop reading an endorsement into this.). Stop the discussion it is in stone that Pope is a max player based on the quality of the current group of inept Pistons. Or ha ha we in Piston management are so smart that we will trick Pope into signing a longer term deal even though that will cost us more money. We are sitting pretty. But I know that I am correct that signing Pope without a sign and trade will be a crusher because of the money factor. The Pistons are in a bad financial position and cannot do much of anything to improve a team full of players who are not as good as players on the teams that beat them. You can talk about poor coaching which I agree with you to a point but it won't change the fact that our players got their asses kicked really bad and it didn't seem to bother some of those high price tag players. The team leaders were bad defenders and bad offensive players and could not do anything at the end of the season to figure out a way to turn it around. Maybe that was due to lack of basic effort or bad team chemistry created by the highly paid players slacking off. And worse of all it happened at the end of the season and all of our players were healthy. No excuses Oracle, our players not only lost but they lost big early on in the games. The games were not close. To forget that it happened is pretty stupid on the part of management that is if they had any option of removing the bad apples. They don't. Once you have a team that lost in the way our Pistons lost, you start looking really close at how each individual player contributed to those losses. And please tell me that Pope played well in the 2nd half of this past season. If you do then I will know that you work for Pope's agent's firm. This team was blown out of games in the first quarter. It should have been embarrassing for the players but they would come right back from a blowout doing the same things that got them blown out the night before. We That is what I can't understand with you. You get so caught up in propaganda that you will say that white is black. I have a brother like that and he has struggled his entire life and is very unhappy. I hope you don't have that affliction. 

Let me spell it out. This is the reality(This is 100% correct, and this is not sustainable, SVG will have to fix this) . We have a piss poor team. Most of us hate watching the team perform. They are not fun to watch. And there is no end in sight. Here is why. 

PLAYER 2017-18 SALARY TRADE FRIENDLY CONTRACT Y/N

DRUMMOND $22,616,750 NO - not good

HARRIS $17,200,000 YES -not bad

JACKSON $16,000,000 NO - not bad

LEUER $10,497,000 NO - not good

POPE $22-25 MIL NO - not good, and I think he'll sign for less, IMO.

Stan Van Gundy has received his marching orders from Tom Gores. Tom has his favorites. So to reduce the payroll it will have to be Harris who goes(Harris likely needs to go. It's more of a "Fit" issue with him and Wise makes a compelling argument that fit is an issue with KCP as well. Don't dwell on losing him, think more about who we can get. I'd also hate to see the number we'll need to sign Harris) . Harris is the best player on the team and one of the few players I enjoy watching. He will be the odd man out because other teams like his potential and his history. SVG might have set this up after receiving instructions from Tom Gores at the time it was decided that for the good of the team Leuer would start and Harris would come off the bench. Harris is a really good guy but imagine if the coach decided that Baynes might be a better starter and told Andre he would be coming off the bench? Stan could get fired for something like that. Back to reality, other GMs would like Drummond and Pope for $8 M/Y. Nobody wants Leuer for more than 2 million. Drummond's appeal has gone down as much as Jackson's value based on this year's performance. Even though Tom Gores might not have seen Whiteside tip in the basketball jumping high over Andre Drummond to win the most important game of the season at the time as far as the Pistons playoff picture was concerned, but you can bet the farm that every GM that might have been interested in Drummond are now doubters. That was a key play and a key moment that few real fans will ever forget. Plus Drummond doesn't fit into the modern game everyone is buzzing excitedly about. That of course in an upscale version of AAU mindless basketball created for brain dead fans who eat chips with cheese and powerful high caffeine content beverages. Those people could give a hoot about watching the game. And that is what Piston management is banking on Oracle. The entire game plan now is damage control. They must make sense of things and by God a lot of fans take the bait. 

The Spurs are licking their wounds after getting beat 4 straight games. But next year if Ginoboli (40 years young) returns with Parker, they will beat the pants off of our dreadful Pistons and take full advantage of KCP while doing it. Leonard who never shows emotion will have to laugh and giggle when his teammates take a peek at the Piston payroll at halftime of another blow out game. Congratulations should go to the agents who had to do very little work to get big wins for their clients. The Piston owner has money to burn. Stan Van Gundy is nervous and doesn't want the fans to turn on him. In the end it is the owner who is making the decisions. I suspect that Tom Gores is always on Stan's back while blaming SVG for everything that goes wrong. He has a special relationship with Andre Drummond. Stan has to walk the high wire balancing what he knows is the right thing to do with his crying dysfunctional players who get special treatment from the owner.. But Stan stops in his tracks knowing players can call the owner and whine even if Stan says nothing but gives his true feeling away with his facial gestures. After such a moment when Stan slips up while resting on his couch Andre calls and Tom picks up the special red phone dedicated to Andre's late night calls and Andre says please Mr. Gores stop those players who want to call team meetings. I am supposed to be the team leader but they are so mean. Stan just won't do anything. Please talk to him and tell Stan to tell the players that I am the team leader. And by the way, will you instruct him to stop asking me if I will work with that damn shooting coach or give me any more dirty looks? I didn't take that from my coaches in college and I won't take it from this coach you hired without my permission. I will work harder on my baseline hook shot from 10 feet out after about 7 weeks of rest. You agreed on our last call that I should just take it easy over the summer. I tell my teammates to follow my lead but they don't listen. That is Stan's fault too. You said you liked it when I shoot that hook shot. It is really fun to practice it too as long as I don't have to retrieve the basketball after each practice shot. The ball boy is really lazy so can you fire him and let me hire my own ball boy? I will hit one just for you Mr. Gores. Then I will stop and point my finger up towards the sky. That will be the sign that I really appreciate what you do for me. Hey and by the way I don't like it when fans tell me that Tobias Harris makes almost as much money as I do. I want a raise. Can you make that happen Tom? Trade Tobias! Do something. That bothers me. They hang up the phone. Drummond yells Ma where is the meat loaf? Bring me the meat loaf. I haven't tapped Mr. Gores phone. But I wouldn't be surprised if that kind of talk doesn't go on. How can we blame Andre if he can't concentrate on basketball. He makes so much money it must be overwhelming for the big guy. 

Oracle I have been having fun with these discussions and your attempts to set me straight might be justified. I have a knee injury (post surgery recovery) right now and am recouping and have more time on my hands but I am about ready to get back to work so this might have to come to an end. by fall I will be in much better shape than our big starting center and won't be getting paid for my efforts. You have some good ideas. Keep them coming. I know you care about the future of the Pistons. That is what matters here. It seems to be more fun to discuss Piston basketball in the off season because of the big disappointment this past year. I see very little to get excited about but good for you if you see anything positive. Blowing the team up and removing the poison still seems like a smart thing to do but my crystal ball is a bit cloudy so I might be wrong. Still I long for the day that I will turn on the television and watch one young player like Isiah Thomas or Joe Dumars or Bill Laimbeer or Chauncey Billups or Ben Wallace and say damn that is a a fun guy to watch. My problem is that I see very little potential with our current players based on how they play mentally. That is the key to identifying keepers. There is no way that I will purchase PASS next fall if big change doesn't happen. That will be it for me for a few years. But you and others can fill me in when I go to this site. Thanks for your contributions Oracle. - Get better Don, I want you fresh and strong when the season starts and I'm really looking forward to the changes SVG will make and... DRUMROLL ... The predictions we give for the coming season. Should be fun and interesting!!!
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Re: FORUM

Post  cool breeze on Thu May 25, 2017 8:05 pm

Oracle wrote:Rankings for 2 guards during the playoffs last year.

Now that is funny Oracle. Pope has played 4 total playoff games in his life and he didn't hit a money shot. What did his team do a lot of when he played in college? Was he on a winning team? The answer is no. He has that in common with Andre Drummond although Andre's team made the NCAA tournament but he fouled out very quickly and he had no impact in that loss. Rating Pope in playoff action is much like Lee's old stats on bench players and his projections if they could only get a certain amount of minutes. Nobody who stands in the baseline corner on offense and is seldom part of the offense should be signing a max. contract. A good GM would say show me the game to match the money. Only in the world according to Tom Gores would we witness this happening.

I don't eat lunch Oracle. I have been a marathon runner for more years than you most likely have been alive. No three martini lunches are in my program and never have been even though some of my co workers still do that occasionally. Somehow those folks lost their spirit along the way to oblivion. My only suggestion for you is to try to think for yourself. Don't always buy into the program. It is fun to be independent and outside of what might be popular.

Now for more material that you can ridicule me on. Reggie Bullock could be a better option for the Detroit Pistons depending on his health. I believe he is a better defender, can protect the ball better on the dribble and finish better at the rim than Pope. His court vision is better as well and he can recognize situations on the court and make his teammates better with his high basketball IQ if given the opportunity. If not Bullock then given the same amount of minutes, Stanley Johnson would be a better option. Give him the green light to fire up those off balance 3 pointers. Even Hilliard might be a better option than Pope if Hilliard could get the love that Pope has received. Maybe if the Pistons used their pick on a guard, that guy would be better than Pope. How can I make such outrageous statements Oracle?

Piston management has spoken. End of story. Stop the discussion it is in stone that Pope is a max player based on the quality of the current group of inept Pistons. Or ha ha we in Piston management are so smart that we will trick Pope into signing a longer term deal even though that will cost us more money. We are sitting pretty. But I know that I am correct that signing Pope without a sign and trade will be a crusher because of the money factor. The Pistons are in a bad financial position and cannot do much of anything to improve a team full of players who are not as good as players on the teams that beat them. You can talk about poor coaching which I agree with you to a point but it won't change the fact that our players got their asses kicked really bad and it didn't seem to bother some of those high price tag players. The team leaders were bad defenders and bad offensive players and could not do anything at the end of the season to figure out a way to turn it around. Maybe that was due to lack of basic effort or bad team chemistry created by the highly paid players slacking off. And worse of all it happened at the end of the season and all of our players were healthy. No excuses Oracle, our players not only lost but they lost big early on in the games. The games were not close. To forget that it happened is pretty stupid on the part of management that is if they had any option of removing the bad apples. They don't. Once you have a team that lost in the way our Pistons lost, you start looking really close at how each individual player contributed to those losses. And please tell me that Pope played well in the 2nd half of this past season. If you do then I will know that you work for Pope's agent's firm. This team was blown out of games in the first quarter. It should have been embarrassing for the players but they would come right back from a blowout doing the same things that got them blown out the night before. We That is what I can't understand with you. You get so caught up in propaganda that you will say that white is black. I have a brother like that and he has struggled his entire life and is very unhappy. I hope you don't have that affliction.

Let me spell it out. This is the reality. We have a piss poor team. Most of us hate watching the team perform. They are not fun to watch. And there is no end in sight. Here is why.

PLAYER 2017-18 SALARY TRADE FRIENDLY CONTRACT Y/N

DRUMMOND $22,616,750 NO

HARRIS $17,200,000 YES

JACKSON $16,000,000 NO

LEUER $10,497,000 NO

POPE $22-25 MIL NO

Stan Van Gundy has received his marching orders from Tom Gores. Tom has his favorites. So to reduce the payroll it will have to be Harris who goes. Harris is the best player on the team and one of the few players I enjoy watching. He will be the odd man out because other teams like his potential and his history. SVG might have set this up after receiving instructions from Tom Gores at the time it was decided that for the good of the team Leuer would start and Harris would come off the bench. Harris is a really good guy but imagine if the coach decided that Baynes might be a better starter and told Andre he would be coming off the bench? Stan could get fired for something like that. Back to reality, other GMs would like Drummond and Pope for $8 M/Y. Nobody wants Leuer for more than 2 million. Drummond's appeal has gone down as much as Jackson's value based on this year's performance. Even though Tom Gores might not have seen Whiteside tip in the basketball jumping high over Andre Drummond to win the most important game of the season at the time as far as the Pistons playoff picture was concerned, but you can bet the farm that every GM that might have been interested in Drummond are now doubters. That was a key play and a key moment that few real fans will ever forget. Plus Drummond doesn't fit into the modern game everyone is buzzing excitedly about. That of course in an upscale version of AAU mindless basketball created for brain dead fans who eat chips with cheese and powerful high caffeine content beverages. Those people could give a hoot about watching the game. And that is what Piston management is banking on Oracle. The entire game plan now is damage control. They must make sense of things and by God a lot of fans take the bait.

The Spurs are licking their wounds after getting beat 4 straight games. But next year if Ginoboli (40 years young) returns with Parker, they will beat the pants off of our dreadful Pistons and take full advantage of KCP while doing it. Leonard who never shows emotion will have to laugh and giggle when his teammates take a peek at the Piston payroll at halftime of another blow out game. Congratulations should go to the agents who had to do very little work to get big wins for their clients. The Piston owner has money to burn. Stan Van Gundy is nervous and doesn't want the fans to turn on him. In the end it is the owner who is making the decisions. I suspect that Tom Gores is always on Stan's back while blaming SVG for everything that goes wrong. He has a special relationship with Andre Drummond. Stan has to walk the high wire balancing what he knows is the right thing to do with his crying dysfunctional players who get special treatment from the owner.. But Stan stops in his tracks knowing players can call the owner and whine even if Stan says nothing but gives his true feeling away with his facial gestures. After such a moment when Stan slips up while resting on his couch Andre calls and Tom picks up the special red phone dedicated to Andre's late night calls and Andre says please Mr. Gores stop those players who want to call team meetings. I am supposed to be the team leader but they are so mean. Stan just won't do anything. Please talk to him and tell Stan to tell the players that I am the team leader. And by the way, will you instruct him to stop asking me if I will work with that damn shooting coach or give me any more dirty looks? I didn't take that from my coaches in college and I won't take it from this coach you hired without my permission. I will work harder on my baseline hook shot from 10 feet out after about 7 weeks of rest. You agreed on our last call that I should just take it easy over the summer. I tell my teammates to follow my lead but they don't listen. That is Stan's fault too. You said you liked it when I shoot that hook shot. It is really fun to practice it too as long as I don't have to retrieve the basketball after each practice shot. The ball boy is really lazy so can you fire him and let me hire my own ball boy? I will hit one just for you Mr. Gores. Then I will stop and point my finger up towards the sky. That will be the sign that I really appreciate what you do for me. Hey and by the way I don't like it when fans tell me that Tobias Harris makes almost as much money as I do. I want a raise. Can you make that happen Tom? Trade Tobias! Do something. That bothers me. They hang up the phone. Drummond yells Ma where is the meat loaf? Bring me the meat loaf. I haven't tapped Mr. Gores phone. But I wouldn't be surprised if that kind of talk doesn't go on. How can we blame Andre if he can't concentrate on basketball. He makes so much money it must be overwhelming for the big guy.

Oracle I have been having fun with these discussions and your attempts to set me straight might be justified. I have a knee injury (post surgery recovery) right now and am recouping and have more time on my hands but I am about ready to get back to work so this might have to come to an end. by fall I will be in much better shape than our big starting center and won't be getting paid for my efforts. You have some good ideas. Keep them coming. I know you care about the future of the Pistons. That is what matters here. It seems to be more fun to discuss Piston basketball in the off season because of the big disappointment this past year. I see very little to get excited about but good for you if you see anything positive. Blowing the team up and removing the poison still seems like a smart thing to do but my crystal ball is a bit cloudy so I might be wrong. Still I long for the day that I will turn on the television and watch one young player like Isiah Thomas or Joe Dumars or Bill Laimbeer or Chauncey Billups or Ben Wallace and say damn that is a a fun guy to watch. My problem is that I see very little potential with our current players based on how they play mentally. That is the key to identifying keepers. There is no way that I will purchase PASS next fall if big change doesn't happen. That will be it for me for a few years. But you and others can fill me in when I go to this site. Thanks for your contributions Oracle.

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Post  Oracle on Thu May 25, 2017 7:04 pm

Ballin, I love this post because in addition to you correctly modifying the window case, you bring up the main point about KCP.

You said KCP is average, and I would say that last year he may have been slightly below average, that happens on a team going down. Yes he's an original Piston and we should do right by him, but the team comes FIRST!

Reality is the ugly girl you're forced to kiss, none of those comparisons and none of the wishing will net us a SG that's better or less expensive. BTW, why are people looking only at the SG to save us anyway. 

If we could upgrade at SG, we'd do it, but what I can't, shouldn't and won't do is denigrate one of our own out the door. If we need to move on, let's do it, but page after page of nasty posts accomplishes nothing except to prove what Wooden said, adversity doesn't build character, it reveals it(of course this applies only to adults, children do learn from adversity)!

We simply can't sign a superior SG because right now we can't afford one when SG's at KCP's level are going for 25M, what do you think a better one will cost. The other avenue is to hope one develops into a great SG, but we're stepping back again.

BTW, and I do this too, we see guys on other teams that we THINK are going to be good, but we never check what the local fans know about them. Leuer is an example, he looked fantastic when the Suns played us but local fans knew more. In fact I'm sure other teams see the same in KCP, but in his case they're betting on the come that he'll blow up in the right environment.

So while it may appear that I'm blindly defending KCP and that I wouldn't trade him, that's not the case, it's the unfair attacks that make the defense necessary.

What happened to the days of, thank you for your service, we're moving on and wish you the best of luck? What's so hard about that?
Ballin wrote:I think there is one more, that Oracle, I'm sure you have thought of.  That is the window after the transitional-talent/team expires 2-4 years: LeBron-Cleveland, same perhaps for Durant/Curry/Green in GS.  We will not be getting past Cleveland and if our window coincides with theirs, that is that. After that, your payroll definitely comes into play.

Speaking of the Pistons, our payroll window if we match or above what other teams will offer for KCP, then do nothing with it except trot him out for 35 minutes a game, then we are constraining our payroll during our window to an average SG; energetic, and he is our draft pick (so we want to love him and particularly his perceived upside) but he is average.

Now I do like how he played last year in the playoffs.  I thought he stepped up in a way he almost never did last year.  He did win a few games for us.  We can hope it was the injury this year that actually caused his (overall) shooting and scoring and PER to drop this year, and we can hope his step-up last year was not an anomaly.

BTW, a lot changes in a year; Beal is not even listed and I and all others would certainly take McCollum, DeRozen and probably Norman Powell (Toronto) and others over KCP and by Hollinger's ranking, that you use to prove your point, you have Lance Stephensen at #7.  Stephensen, will he even be in the league this coming season?
 

Meanwhile: The lakers are open for business, per Magic: "I think Brandon Ingram is the only player we would not move." I would have loved to have gotten Lou Williams from them last year, but Houston grabbed him and used him to great advantage during their run.
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Post  BallinD on Thu May 25, 2017 6:08 pm

I think there is one more, that Oracle, I'm sure you have thought of.  That is the window after the transitional-talent/team expires 2-4 years: LeBron-Cleveland, same perhaps for Durant/Curry/Green in GS.  We will not be getting past Cleveland and if our window coincides with theirs, that is that. After that, your payroll definitely comes into play.

Speaking of the Pistons, our payroll window if we match or above what other teams will offer for KCP, then do nothing with it except trot him out for 35 minutes a game, then we are constraining our payroll during our window to an average SG; energetic, and he is our draft pick (so we want to love him and particularly his perceived upside) but he is average.

Now I do like how he played last year in the playoffs.  I thought he stepped up in a way he almost never did last year.  He did win a few games for us.  We can hope it was the injury this year that actually caused his (overall) shooting and scoring and PER to drop this year, and we can hope his step-up last year was not an anomaly.

BTW, a lot changes in a year; Beal is not even listed and I and all others would certainly take McCollum, DeRozen and probably Norman Powell (Toronto) and others over KCP and by Hollinger's ranking, that you use to prove your point, you have Lance Stephensen at #7.  Stephensen, will he even be in the league this coming season?
 

Meanwhile: The lakers are open for business, per Magic: "I think Brandon Ingram is the only player we would not move." I would have loved to have gotten Lou Williams from them last year, but Houston grabbed him and used him to great advantage during their run.

Oracle wrote:In the old days of the NBA, like 5 years or so ago  lol

The definition of a teams window was defined by having guys in a certain age group and making your move before that talent moved out of their prime.

These days the definition has changed quite a bit.

The new definition of a teams window can be measured by the payroll required to keep so many players in their prime, which means you have to manage not only the age group, but the dollars as well.

To address this, the NBA needs to massively raise the CAP for teams to reflect the increased amount of money players make since the owners are raking in so much more cash.


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Don, I hope your lunch can stay down after seeing this :)

Post  Oracle on Thu May 25, 2017 2:28 pm

Rankings for 2 guards during the playoffs last year.
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The NEW definition of Window...

Post  Oracle on Thu May 25, 2017 1:54 pm

In the old days of the NBA, like 5 years or so ago  lol

The definition of a teams window was defined by having guys in a certain age group and making your move before that talent moved out of their prime.

These days the definition has changed quite a bit.

The new definition of a teams window can be measured by the payroll required to keep so many players in their prime, which means you have to manage not only the age group, but the dollars as well.

To address this, the NBA needs to massively raise the CAP for teams to reflect the increased amount of money players make since the owners are raking in so much more cash.
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Don

Post  Oracle on Thu May 25, 2017 1:48 pm

Don wrote:Oracle you use the argument of intimidation like an old Soviet propaganda expert. Maybe you should read some Objectivism so you can decipher my intent. This will be the last time I respond to your idiotic statements about your insistence that I am always attacking some Piston player's character. Must be you get so emotional with my posts that you must attack. If you say I am attacking Pope's character then nothing I might say about his basketball skill level is avid. Is that what you are trying to do? Believe me or not but my intent is never to make a claim that I know anything about any players character as a man. I am talking basketball. Basketball character is something much different from how a player handles his life off the court(Not really Don, and you should know this). I have no idea how Pope lives his life off the court. All I care about is his basketball SKILLS.
I said in a previous post that you can't go back to a place you've never been. In your case I was referencing reality, because nothing you complain about makes any sense, and let me proceed to show you why.

1. I guess you believe that other teams don't know and understand our team. Well, you appear to know it when it suits you, but not when you want to degrade a player. Did it ever occur to you that teams scout us and realize that we have only one plus defender in the lineup at one time, and that they design their offense to eliminate that player as much as possible. They likely don't game plan for Stanley, but they absolutely game plan for KCP. They know that if they can make it harder for KCP to defend, there's little to no resistance from the rest of the team.

That's not to say his defense hasn't gone down in the last two campaigns, it has as his offense has increased, but he's a young player and you expect him to get to balance soon. So did you take any of that into account in your analysis... no, you don't think to do that.

2. You complain that KCP can't guard Wall or Beal. Do you know what these guys average? Tell me who does stop them? Also do you realize the KCP has trouble guarding them because he generally winds up guarding both of them because the other options for perimeter defense are so much worse. Your whole argument here is designed to denigrate not analyze, you either have a lot of hate or you simply don't know what you're talking about.

3. You constantly say how bad a 2 guard KCP is, but do you even know what the numbers are for an average 2 guard in this league? Without that information, you're talking nonsense.

4. You say KCP is worth no more than 8M, but since when did you get the authority or knowledge to set what players should make. KCP is worth whatever they pay him... period!

5. KCP can't dribble? I give you RIP Hamilton, who couldn't dribble to save his life and was a turnover waiting to happen when he had the ball. KCP is 10 times the dribbler as RIP on his best day, LOL!

Finally, you're obsessed with KCP, you can't stop talking about him. This team has issues, that we can all agree on, but KCP isn't high on that list. When KCP gets paid, I hope a doctor is closely monitoring your blood pressure, because you could pop!

If you truly wanted to get rid of KCP, paying his is the quickest and easiest way, but ranting and raving about this and that??? Only children behave and speak in those terms. And get out of the 50's, I know the Russian stuff is back in the news, but the commie scares of your youth are gone, just like the way you think about the modern NBA.


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Article "Will Pistons & NBA's chase for shooting, offense hurt big men in June draft"

Post  cool breeze on Thu May 25, 2017 1:35 pm

My gut feeling relating to the stats with teams that shoot and make a high percentage of 3 balls is that there is more involved than just going out and finding really good long range shooters. Throughout the Spurs long run as a top level NBA team, Pop has found and developed good two way players at every position. His players are capable defenders and they all possess high basketball IQ levels. The key to success for any team at any level is getting stops. You can get out on transition and find wide open shots or layups when you play outstanding defense. The opposing team doesn't have time to set up their half court defense like they do after made shots. For example more times then not Detroit players were inbounding the basketball after opposing made baskets. Opposing teams knew Stan Van Gundy's offense and where players stand in designated spots every time they set up their offense. Other teams can get in a good groove against Detroit because of the Pistons weak interior defensive presence. Detroit allows a lot of 2nd chance opportunities and knowing that stat, opposing teams really attack the offensive boards. Their guards can penetrate easily as well because of weak defensive players occupying the Piston guard positions. So the theory of drafting shooting specialist because that is the current favorite thing to do will not improve the Detroit Piston team. Ignoring the basic weaknesses of our current roster will not make those weaknesses go away. But that is what Stan Van Gundy is doing. Does the owner know that????

One good point brought out in this article involves the lack of interest in players with skill sets like Andre Drummond. No wonder Detroit has not been able to trade him. Not only is Drummond a weak interior defender, pick and roll defender, and able to get out fast to obstruct his man from getting wide open outside looks, Drummond is no threat himself not only involving making free throws but having a mid range or long range game. Drummond would need to be a elite defender, shot blocker, and defensive board star to attract any interest with the current trend featuring a fast paced game with a lot of outside offense. Drummond's true current value might approach the value of Jackson if truth be told. Face it management will say anything to attract Michigan fans to buy season tickets. Yes we are going to hang on to Drummond and Jackson. Maybe Pope's agent has told Stan Van Gundy that he will have to offer a max contract because Pope does not enjoy playing on the same team with Drummond and Jackson.

Stan Van Gundy is worried that his team is not getting enough 3 point shots. Has Van Gundy broken down the reasons why the Pistons don't get good looks at any spot on the floor with most possessions? Has he been watching the Boston - Cleveland series where Boston's offense has improved to the point that it is difficult to believe that they are the same team they were when Thomas was healthy? Thomas is a ball dominate point guard. In a playoff situation when you feature a ball dominate point guard opposing team find that type of team the easiest type of team to defend. And Cleveland had a real easy time of defending Boston when the team employed the same style of offensive game that Stan Van Gundy features. Flash forward, Brad Stevens brought inSmart who gets the half court offense organized and in operation quickly. There is no fooling around with the point guard dribbling all around the perimeter while trying to make something happen all by himself. Every Boston player is moving, screening and breaking down the defense together. I love it and only wish the Celtic could win one more game to keep this series alive. If so some of those Cleveland players might run out of gas. But at any rate Boston has shown that average NBA players who play hard together can be successful against a team full of the most elite players in the league. Great job.

The NBA and all NBA teams now covet shooting specialist at every position and that will be the trend moving forward for several years to come, if you are not a major market team apt to secure the rights to the best skill players that can provide that type of offense, why not do the opposite??????? How about the Pistons blowing up this losing team full of cream puff defenders as well as poor penetrators and mid range shooters. Go out and secure the rights to or draft the very best defensive players at every position and make sure those players have the skill set of high quality ball handlers and play makers. Make the bread and butter offense based on the mid range game where screening, player movement and ball movement force your opponent to use up a lot of energy on defense. Keep stats on empty opponent possessions. Eliminate fast break baskets by reducing turnovers. Force all opponents to grind out everything they get. By the 4th quarter, teams opposing the Pistons will be too tired to connect on those long range bombs. Do the opposite and be that special team with a real identity. Detroit will never get the top hot shot 3 point shooters. But management can change the course by reverting back to the past to play the old black and blue type basketball that got them on the map in the first place. Being a copy cat of a major market type team when you are a small market type team with no identity will cause you to flounder around like this team has been doing for a long time. Be brave Stan Van Gundy. Create a identity the fans will support. You will be a hero instead of trying to do the impossible and getting fired.

There is one thing I feel really good about that has come out of the playoffs this season. One of my favorite former Piston players, Jonas Jerebco has had a exceptionally good playoff experience. He made another crunch time 3 point shot in this last game for Boston. His contact will expire with the Celtics. NBA executives know now that he is a solid two way player who plays with emotion. He really is a good guy and helps the young players acclimate into the NBA. Jonas will get some attention this summer and should hand another contract that will keep him in the league a little longer. His career could have been over in that early season game against Cleveland years ago. I love this type of player who keeps on fighting and Brad Stevens noticed his value unlike Mr. Van Gundy. He reminds me of Steve Kerr the guy no college coach wanted and then no NBA team wanted. Kerr became a great college player and is wearing 5 championship rings and became an outstanding GM, announcer and NBA head coach. Now Steve is suffering but I expect he will pull off another miracle and claw his way back from his back problems. Read Bill Walton's book "Back From The Dead". These pro athletes don't always have it made throughout their lives.

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Lemonpen

Post  Sparma on Thu May 25, 2017 1:26 pm

That's interesting.  I'd take the process more broadly, but I see your point.  To be clear, what I'd advocate for the Pistons needn't be a total imitation of what Hinkie did.  I mentioned that I thought he gave too little attention to roster balance.  But it does seem likely that Hinkie would be the most ardent practitioner of "the Process" available as potential Pistons' leader.

Leaving Philly, Hinkie set forth his ideas in a 13 p. document, sometimes ponderously.

His statement of goals does strike me as fairly broad.  I see it as including, but not exclusively confined, to what you highlight.  Maybe MCW, whom I admired, didn't fit well with the stated goal of "high efficiency basketball" given his crummy shooting.

Hinkie:

"Specifically, we set out to maximize the odds of acquiring star players using all three available methods of acquiring players (draft, free agency, and trade).
1. Draft: invest in the deepest pool of star players—young players via the NBA Draft.
2. Free Agency: maintain financial flexibility to assume contract liabilities of other teams to acquire picks and prospects and move quickly toward special opportunities in signings/trade.
3. Trade: gather attractive, improving players to (best case) develop to win games for the Sixers, or (worst case) trade for better players or players likely to improve at a faster rate.
We determined to play a faster style that recognizes the importance of speed in tomorrow’s NBA and one that quickly integrates young players. We set out to improve our shot selection toward high efficiency basketball. We also wanted to build a defensive identity that—in time—could thwart tomorrow’s
high-efficiency offenses. Lastly, we needed to build a world-class training center, develop an ever-evolving player development program, and change the organization’s culture to one of innovation and a constant
search for competitive edge."

Also, I've expressed admiration for SVG and the approach (incremental improvement) he's taken. We're going to be better than last year. Sadly, he's now running into the limits of his approach, with money becoming tight. Trades for the likes of Morris and Harris were smart, bringing genuine improvement. No championship in sight though, and even contention within 2 or 3 years now seems far-fetched to me. From the outset, SVG's plan seemed better suited to becoming a pretty good team (which we may well become again) than a genuine contender.

lemonpen wrote:to be clear, I think I've interpreted the process a little differently.  

With the exception of our 2004 Pistons, NO team since Showtime has won the Larry O'Brian without a bona fied Top 50 All Time HOF.  (kobe, shaq, the big fundamental, dirkalicious, the big ticket, mj, the chosen, magic, bird, zeke, the dream, doc, moses .......curry (maybe))  

I believe "the process" is a path to having the greatest probability of landing the next elite HOF'er once identified.  If it were simply an expedited approach to building a contender Hinkie would likely not have traded away his rookie of the year PG after what, 18 months.  He seems to hang on to pieces long enough to answer the question; is he or isn't he?   (thus my reference to "throwing them back for another 1st round pick)


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The Process

Post  lemonpen on Thu May 25, 2017 12:45 pm

to be clear, I think I've interpreted the process a little differently.

With the exception of our 2004 Pistons, NO team since Showtime has won the Larry O'Brian without a bona fied Top 50 All Time HOF. (kobe, shaq, the big fundamental, dirkalicious, the big ticket, mj, the chosen, magic, bird, zeke, the dream, doc, moses .......curry (maybe))

I believe "the process" is a path to having the greatest probability of landing the next elite HOF'er once identified. If it were simply an expedited approach to building a contender Hinkie would likely not have traded away his rookie of the year PG after what, 18 months. He seems to hang on to pieces long enough to answer the question; is he or isn't he? (thus my reference to "throwing them back for another 1st round pick)
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Re: FORUM

Post  cool breeze on Thu May 25, 2017 12:07 am

Oracle wrote:
Don wrote:I don't like slamming Pope. This is not a personal thing for me. My opinion is based on watching him play and lot and logic and reason while looking at other 2 guards in the league and the upcoming college players in the draft. He is AVERAGE. He is not a superstar. So I think some fans forget the amount of money Pope's agent is demanding.

You seriously crack me up! I won't spend time recounting the numerous times you've questioned the character, NOT the play of many individuals on this team, all you need to do is read your posts. Denying what's in black and white is pretty tricky!

And you need to wake up, there's a free market out there, sorry you aren't a capitalist, maybe you can go out and dictate what players should be paid.

Pope's money isn't the problem, it's the fact that we've made a lot of deals that are on the high end. 

But unlike most here, who would like an upgrade at SG, they have valid reasons. I understand Wise's reasons and Ballin makes a case that's worth considering and shouldn't be ignored, but you're just plain nasty and it's REAL personal to you.

If you think you're fooling anybody, you're sadly mistaken!

Oracle you use the argument of intimidation like an old Soviet propaganda expert. Maybe you should read some Objectivism so you can decipher my intent. This will be the last time I respond to your idiotic statements about your insistence that I am always attacking some Piston player's character. Must be you get so emotional with my posts that you must attack. If you say I am attacking Pope's character then nothing I might say about his basketball skill level is avid. Is that what you are trying to do? Believe me or not but my intent is never to make a claim that I know anything about any players character as a man. I am talking basketball. Basketball character is something much different from how a player handles his life off the court. I have no idea how Pope lives his life off the court. All I care about is his basketball SKILLS. I never doubt his effort like I do with Drummond. Yet with Drummond, I might think he is a lazy ass player who doesn't have the basic basketball mindset to ever be a great basketball player. But as with Pope most likely he is a great guy off the court. I don't care at all about that and most likely you are interested in Piston players true off the court character. Good for you. God love you. But all I care about is hoping that the Pistons get really good basketball players on the team. In Popes case, I don't believe he is an above average player in the sense that he is playing in the NBA. You might be one of those guys who hates certain players and believes they are A Holes. I really don't want to know. All I do is breakdown Pope's weaknesses as a player to prove that it is insane to offer anything more than $8 million dollars a year in a long term deal. I offer comparisons for you Oracle. You ignore the comparisons. I can't understand how Detroit can be in a good financial position if they sign Pope to a $20 million dollar deal unless it is a sign and trade type of deal. I have gone down a long list of reasons why Pope is not a max level type player. If the Nets think he is worth max money what is wrong with letting him go. The Pistons can bring in two good players for that money. This is the other question that I have that gets glossed over by a lot of sports writers. They say the Pistons have locked in Pope, Drummond, Jackson if the Pope deal can get done. Somehow that is supposed to make sense but it only makes sense if other teams in the league believe the big three is worth the money Detroit has offered. I can't imagine a team like the Spurs saying hey Stan will you make a trade with us we sure want Pope. They might say that if Pope greatly improves and Detroit is playing him $8 million but why in hell would any smart team want to take on Pope for 20 million plus? What has he accomplished in the NBA? Am I treading on being mean here Oracle. God help me if I am. Can Pope play defense as well as Avery Johnson who makes $8 million? A lot of teams would love to make a trade involving Johnson. Is Pope playing in the conference finals and did Pope hit the winning shot in a playoff game yet? Does Pope's skills match Avery Johnson's skills? Is Pope a good ball handler. Can Pope stop dribble penetration? Can Pope recognize situations on the court and create open shots for his teammates? I see a lot of other players who play Pope's position why are better all around players than Pope. Is that attacking his character Oracle. You must hate it when I bring up defects in your favorite players. Please answer this question. Do you really believe that the Pistons don't need an upgrade at the starting 2 guard position? Does Pope's skill set equal say Richard Hamilton or Joe Dumars when they were Pope's age? Funny but I immediately knew that those two players were the real deal. I do not believe that Pope is the real deal. Somehow you do. So because you cannot come up with any reasons why he is the real deal and deserves $20 to 25 million a year, you have need call me out as being mean and making things personal about some payers off the court character. I only care about basketball. You care about being a politically correct person who likes to blindly follow. If you are not that type of person who likes to assault someone's character if they disagree with your plan, then provide me with all the things that Pope does really well that would warrant him getting a mega contract. I want you to break down what Pope does better than most starting 2 guards. Maybe I missed something this past year. You have to be a great player to get a $20 to 25 million dollar contract. If the player is not great how do you trade him if he gets his butt kicked by guys like Wall, Beal, Avery Johnson, on and on and on. That is what I saw last season. All the really good point guards and two guards had him for lunch. Pope beat up on the rookies and the fringe players. To get the max contact you need to show that can out play any opposing player in the league. What a joke. Am I in the twilight zone? Are the Pistons really going to make another huge blunder with another average to below average basketball player? Oracle you are mainstream relating to this important issue relating to Pope's greedy agent's demands. Piston management and You are on board with this deal that of course is going to happen. But WHY???? What makes Pope so valuable. He played on a losing team this past year. He was not a consistent player. He didn't make his team better.

Stan Van Gundy was interviewed and talked about his awareness that change must happen with the Pistons. When asked about trades to improve the roster, Stan said that you need partners to make trades. This is exactly what I am worried about. How in hell can you make trades if you have been so damn stupid to not breakdown the positives and negatives of players you decide to give huge money to. Stan knows that he has been an idiot just by looking at the payroll compared to other NBA teams and where his team ended up compared with the rest of the league. Giving the status of the payroll why would the team sacrifice even more money for a player who hasn't shown any sign of being anything more than an average player? Stan has no partners to make a trade with for good reason. Other GMs watch the Pistons and see what I see. Detroit has no player any GM is really interested in. And they will be less interested in Pope once he signs the big contract. The fans will be watching Pope for a long long time. You will eventually get tired and fall asleep during the games and wake up saying what in hell happened? Our players are difficult to watch on most nights. Every Piston player should be making the NBA minimum based on how they played last season. It is insane that the Pope debate should even be taking place this summer. Would Pop, Stevens, Kidd etc want Pope on their team?

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The Process

Post  Sparma on Wed May 24, 2017 9:52 pm

Tried to answer the objection about Philly not having achieved anything with my KC A's anno 1968 analogy.

Concerning salary cap and accompanying trade opportunities, the PP discussion of Hinkie provides good info, esp. Tim Thielke.  As Lemon points out, Hinkie's been ordinary in the draft.  Where I think he's been extraordinary is in exploiting openings created by dubious structure of the NBA, which encourages acts of desperation for which I have respect when they involve calculated risks.

The lines seem to have been drawn, and I'm ready to move on from this topic.  Sadly, applying the Process to the Pistons is strictly hypothetical anyway.  We'll get to watch the alternative play itself out for the next year, likely two.  I'm guessing that by then even you will be ready to try a radical alternative, Oracle.  But time will tell.


Oracle wrote:
Sparma wrote:Thanks for your thoughtful and evenhanded response.

A few reactions:

Hinkie's drafting record does seem to be pedestrian.  

In fact, I'd add that's he made a major error in giving little or no thought to talent distribution on the roster.  Post-Hinkie that resulted in Noel being unloaded, with Okafur likely being next.  For a "Process" enthusiast that's a correctable strategic error though; more attention needs to be given to roster-building and not sheer accumulation of talent.

As to the effects on the fans, I thought I'd heard that Philly fans recently gave him a loud ovation (post-firing).  Backers of the "Process" will go through the lean years patiently.  We've had one winning season in the last 9, and to what end? This part is really confusing to me. You see Philly accomplish absolutely nothing, yet getting to the playoffs by us is viewed as some path to nowhere?  Still, I'm in at least partial agreement with you here, because it'd be a real drag spending a bundle taking a family with young kids to the game, only to have the home team be terrible year after year.  My understanding is that their Arena was more exciting than ours last year though.

The effect on the NBA's a huge issue. If eight teams opted for the Process, it would be really ugly.  Is a possible that could have a curative effect on the league, forcing the league to make franchises more competitive a la NFL, where Green Bay can be one of its great franchises?  Also, Hinkie simply exploited an opening created by the league.  Still, this is where I agree most with you.

I do think you're neglecting an important factor in favor of the Process, namely salary cap issues and their ramifications This is another head scratcher for me. They are hardly avoiding salary cap issue, in fact they're piling up HUGE cap issues as these guys exit rookie contracts EVERY year because they're losing like crazy.  It's not just about being bad and drafting high, because Philly's also in great salary cap shape.  Tom Thielke at PP commended Hinkie on his trading record (he provided a link).  We've seen SVG exploit trade opportunities due to salary cap advantages relative to the other team; that's over for the Pistons now though as they've become financially strapped.  In the Process, again and again you're able to make opportunistic trades.  Those have often been for drafting advantages, as with Sac (where Sac should have lucked into the #3 pick, which Philly now holds itself).  As Philly emerges out of the Process in the next year or two, they'll be able to use their salary cap advantage created by the Process directly to build their roster.  I think what we'll see in the next two years is that's they're a much likelier destination for significant FA's than we are.  

My advocacy for the Process notwithstanding, I think you've made a strong case for the opposing view.
There is absolutely no logic to this method... NONE!

These days the best path is the path SVG is on with the modification of if you see the season going down, let it go down hard and fast to get the best pick possible, keep your best talent and move ahead.

Tanking can work if used when it makes sense, but the Hinkie level is ridiculous.


Back to our case: SVG is NOT in a bad place, we do have assets, great assets at that. Once he signs KCP, he then has great options, BTW, look for them to sign KCP for less than the max, but give him 5 years. That makes him attractive here, but also attractive to teams that could only have signed him to 4 years at the max... in short he's very movable.

Harris is very movable as well, and folks need to get the emotion out and think business. Saying that Harris is our best guy, makes no business sense. The question is if we can move him for a better fitting guy. Face it, the players we have that other teams want are both Harris & KCP.

If there is any movement the highest probability targets are Harris & KCP, IMO.


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Newsy Stuff...

Post  Oracle on Wed May 24, 2017 8:49 pm

Celtics: What will they do now? The rest of the team is playing great without Thomas, so does Boston get the top PG in the draft to groom for tomorrow then move Thomas for a competent fill in PG and wait? Ainge has a lot of options now.

Hammond is leaving the Bucks: He's going to Orlando to be with his buddy, and the Bucks are looking for a new GM... could Dumars be in that mix? Would Middleton welcome him?

Thrilla in their minds: Shaq & Barkley go at it and it gets real ugly
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Re: FORUM

Post  Oracle on Wed May 24, 2017 8:35 pm

Sparma wrote:Thanks for your thoughtful and evenhanded response.

A few reactions:

Hinkie's drafting record does seem to be pedestrian.  

In fact, I'd add that's he made a major error in giving little or no thought to talent distribution on the roster.  Post-Hinkie that resulted in Noel being unloaded, with Okafur likely being next.  For a "Process" enthusiast that's a correctable strategic error though; more attention needs to be given to roster-building and not sheer accumulation of talent.

As to the effects on the fans, I thought I'd heard that Philly fans recently gave him a loud ovation (post-firing).  Backers of the "Process" will go through the lean years patiently.  We've had one winning season in the last 9, and to what end? This part is really confusing to me. You see Philly accomplish absolutely nothing, yet getting to the playoffs by us is viewed as some path to nowhere?  Still, I'm in at least partial agreement with you here, because it'd be a real drag spending a bundle taking a family with young kids to the game, only to have the home team be terrible year after year.  My understanding is that their Arena was more exciting than ours last year though.

The effect on the NBA's a huge issue. If eight teams opted for the Process, it would be really ugly.  Is a possible that could have a curative effect on the league, forcing the league to make franchises more competitive a la NFL, where Green Bay can be one of its great franchises?  Also, Hinkie simply exploited an opening created by the league.  Still, this is where I agree most with you.

I do think you're neglecting an important factor in favor of the Process, namely salary cap issues and their ramifications This is another head scratcher for me. They are hardly avoiding salary cap issue, in fact they're piling up HUGE cap issues as these guys exit rookie contracts EVERY year because they're losing like crazy.  It's not just about being bad and drafting high, because Philly's also in great salary cap shape.  Tom Thielke at PP commended Hinkie on his trading record (he provided a link).  We've seen SVG exploit trade opportunities due to salary cap advantages relative to the other team; that's over for the Pistons now though as they've become financially strapped.  In the Process, again and again you're able to make opportunistic trades.  Those have often been for drafting advantages, as with Sac (where Sac should have lucked into the #3 pick, which Philly now holds itself).  As Philly emerges out of the Process in the next year or two, they'll be able to use their salary cap advantage created by the Process directly to build their roster.  I think what we'll see in the next two years is that's they're a much likelier destination for significant FA's than we are.  

My advocacy for the Process notwithstanding, I think you've made a strong case for the opposing view.
There is absolutely no logic to this method... NONE!

These days the best path is the path SVG is on with the modification of if you see the season going down, let it go down hard and fast to get the best pick possible, keep your best talent and move ahead.

Tanking can work if used when it makes sense, but the Hinkie level is ridiculous.


Back to our case: SVG is NOT in a bad place, we do have assets, great assets at that. Once he signs KCP, he then has great options, BTW, look for them to sign KCP for less than the max, but give him 5 years. That makes him attractive here, but also attractive to teams that could only have signed him to 4 years at the max... in short he's very movable.

Harris is very movable as well, and folks need to get the emotion out and think business. Saying that Harris is our best guy, makes no business sense. The question is if we can move him for a better fitting guy. Face it, the players we have that other teams want are both Harris & KCP.

If there is any movement the highest probability targets are Harris & KCP, IMO.
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