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Re: FORUM

Post  Sparma on Thu Jun 01, 2017 11:48 am

BallinD:

"Sparma, objectivity is damn near impossible often because the bosses want a slant that is sexy, timely, topical, lures readers, appeals to advertisers and contributors/sources. Most writers have a an unseen bias they believe they can easily justify based on their belief systems which support the facts as they see them. If you are incapable of seeing, then it is often because you may not believe in what you see."

That sounds like a heartfelt lament, Ballin, with a lot of experience in the background. What would an example be, preferably Piston-related, of being incapable of seeing, because you may not believe?

Objectivity's problematic, I agree. A few thoughts. Objectivity can still serve as an ideal, even if it's not "objectively" attainable, as when I seek to draw a perfect circle, even though I can't do it. Also, it would take a major argument to show that because objectivity isn't attainable in one realm -- quantum physics -- it isn't attainable in any. Objectivity can come in many forms, each of which would need to be evaluated on its own merits, unless it can be shown (which I doubt) that there's a single form which covers all instances. For instance, I hold that a $20 bill has "objective" value even though that's intersubjectively derived. Closer to our realm, I not only think it's an objective fact that Al Kaline played for the Tigers, but that the objective evaluation can made [once the context is properly introduced] that he was a better hitter than Ray Oyler. Beyond that, skeptical arguments, for instance, regarding objectivity, threaten to become self-defeating. For instance, if I say: "Objectivity is impossible" that itself sounds like an objective assertion.

Concerning Ballin's "alternative facts" I think forumites should be allowed a bit a poetic licence, as a courtesy if not as an acknowledgement of our own fallibility. What I'm hearing is the perfectly intelligible assertion that there are neglected facts, which are sometimes ignored for self-serving reasons, rather than the self-contradictory claim that there are facts which, in fact, are not facts.
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Horrible team chemistry has not been addressed by Stan Van Gundy

Post  cool breeze on Thu Jun 01, 2017 11:20 am

Does anyone who watched the last half of the season not believe players on the current roster do not respect each other as players? Some players show up for every game and even if they are having a bad night will still play hard with passion. As I recall the players only meeting was called for the purpose of the players to all get on the same page and right the wrongs and somehow reverse the way in which this team was losing. Getting blown out in the first quarter caused by defects in the way the starters played together should have sounded alarm bells with all the players. But as I recall the only thing that came out of the meeting were statements from Andre Drummond and Stan Van Gundy. This is another bothersome trait of this head coach. He has acted like a pussy or submissive teacher who allows the class bully to set the course. How many coaches would have tried to put a stop to players only team meetings. But that is what Stan did based on his relationship with Andre Drummond. As for the franchise player, it is equally puzzling regarding hw Drummond responded to what happened in the players only meeting. He criticized some of the players without naming them to the press. Who in hell does that? I was on a team in high school and we had a players only meeting when the coach walked out during halftime when we were sitting in the locker room. That was a good thing for our team. We were behind in that game and emotions were high among the players but we all came to a meeting of the minds and then went out and opened a can of whip ass. We were all fired up and everyone dug down deep in that game. It also happened on my college team two times. Every time we had a positive result. Players know what is going on and where the holes are coming from. This is part of building a solid together type team. I think dX first brought up this Piston players only meeting. Andre Drummond complains that some players in the meeting were too hard on certain teammates. Imagine Isiah Thomas ever saying such a stupid thing. This came from the coach designated team leader. Fast forward after every player ended up with a sour taste in their mouths from the criticism of the players only meeting to the other incident where Morris told his teammates something to the effect that if they didn't want to play to go back into the locker room. Meanwhile as the loses piled up, Andre Drummond told the media not to make much of the recent slide and the team was just going through a period of bad patch or bad luck. The team chemistry clearly became worse after the players only meeting rather than better. And the Morris rant had no effect on the team for more than a few minutes.

At the end of the season this Piston team had to be the worst team in the NBA. Teams fighting for good positioning in the draft were beating the Pistons and kicking their asses still in the first quarter of almost every game. When the team would fight back in the 2nd quarter, the same starters would then lay an egg in the 3rd to allow the opponents to get the game back to blow out status. Everyone was healthy with possibly the exception of Reggie Jackson but his knee did not appear to be the cause of his problems on the court. It was his stamina or his inability to play all out for anything more than a few seconds. He looked to be out of gas. Did Andre Drummond ever step up as the highest paid player on the team and the self proclaimed team leader? No Andre played a little more soft dragging those long legs slowly in transition. He always had this dumb look on his face like he might be sleep walking. My point with this post is that nothing the players or the coaches did had any positive effect on this team. So if you play for the Pistons where is your head now over the summer? Andre's answer to everything is just "rest". We are tired troopers. Tell that to the warriors who fought with the 101st in below freezing temperatures for a month in the Battle of the Bulge. This team has as the highest paid athletes real cream puffs. Debating on blowing the team up or not blowing it up is really silly. Stan wants one more go around with the same core of lemons. Yet he found no answers during the downturn this past season. He was extremely protective of Andre Drummond and Reggie Jackson. He never flinched when Leuer played like crap and kept on starting him as if nothing had gone wrong. It wasn't until Stan was being ridiculed that he started Harris again. It was too late. The team chemistry was fractured. And my bet is that a lot of players would love to be traded right now. I cannot believe that anyone wants to play basketball with Andre Drummond. I know that Oracle will call me a "hater". But I do not hate Andre Drummond in any way. I just do not enjoy watching him play or how adversely he has affected the Piston team. If you don't want to play or work to get better or provide the team what it needs most, then should the people of Detroit organize a special parade for Andre Drummond? No the only sane thing that should be done is trade him if that is a possibility. I doubt that is a possibility after this past season. That is the hold up regarding lack of any action by management to improve this team. I cannot believe that Stan Van Gundy wants to spend another season mothering a guy who will be making $22 million plus. For some reason fans are not objective relating to what Andre Drummond brings to the team. He brings dysfunction.

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Alternative objectives???

Post  Oracle on Thu Jun 01, 2017 7:08 am

I've heard of make up calls to clean up something, but a cleanup post...
BallinD wrote:Agreed on fairly evaluate.  While trying to see clearly, I do not give players the Pistons cushion.  I do not toe the party line, I try to be objective and not pick favorites.  We are all astute observers, each in our own way, and I respect that.  I have found many bloggers, reporters and forumites (here and elsewhere) simply repeat what authority figures have said until the consensus view is debunked or they are confronted on BS.  I am a former Detroit News staff writer, so I know something about what objectivity is supposed to look like. - This isn't possible, but you can try. Physics tells us that in the process of observing anything, we change it. In your attempt to NOT give a Piston Cushion, you can easily give the reverse of it. While trying to not toe the company line, you attempt to find reasons to NOT toe the line, which could result in reverse bias.

When I highlight certain points, it is because everybody or most everybody is toeing the company line and I feel the alternative facts need highlighting to prevent GroupThink; hate it.  It is like by the sheer volume of the people repeating the lie, someone must also shout out the alternative facts.  This is a forum though, and we all want the Pistons to win or get back in a position to win.  - You seriously can't believe this! First the obvious, there is NO such thing as alternative facts, facts don't have alternatives! Secondly, where have you been? Damn near everybody here is going against the company line of SVG! You guys are on constant SVG, KCP, Reggie, Drummond hateraide 24/7, where is this oasis of company love you're dreaming about. So when you, on two occasions, highlighted ONLY the negative, when both times major positives were present, that certainly can't be the reason... try again.

IMHO, Win Now is not an option for many reasons, including coach, team composition, GS and Cleveland, stockpiled assets (we have none) lack of a star. - Yes, but you get a star by doing the hard work of developing your talent so that you can trade two or three of them for a super star, or keep pulling a Philly and hoping that hail Mary gets caught.

I want us to get in position to win, meaning we must play chess not checkers, must not misrepresent where we actually are.  If you don't know where you are, you cannot figure out how to get to the next developmental step.  If you won't admit where you are because you are a homer, or have vested interest in overstating the team's position, or simply repeat what everyone else says, then that is a hindrance, not a help, and we need all the help we can get if we will be "Going to Work." guitar

The reverse is also true! If you won't admit where you are because you're a hater, or have a vested interest in understating the teams position to advance that hate...
If there is one thing that I see as screwing up the ability to be objective, it's the tight coupling of opinion and facts.

In the future I'm going to try to make it much clearer as to what I feel is opinion and fact, but I don't know how much it will help because we all generally know the facts.

The difference is that when confronted with them, some ignore them, and even if we all accept them, the decision about what to do is pure opinion. The only question after that is if that opinion is supported by any logic.
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Re: FORUM

Post  BallinD on Thu Jun 01, 2017 1:31 am

Sparma wrote:Great stuff, BallinD.

I always wondered if objectivity was especially difficult to attain for local writers (a) because the needed access might diminish if coverage is unfavorable and (b) because there's a kind of symbiotic relationship between sports teams and local media, with both profiting from the same product, creating a shared motive to promote.   I realize that some writers, maybe especially in certain locations like NY, gain readership by being ruthlessly critical.  It looks like a tough business, with a lot to balance.  


Sparma, objectivity is damn near impossible often because the bosses want a slant that is sexy, timely, topical, lures readers, appeals to advertisers and contributors/sources.  Most writers have a an unseen bias they believe they can easily justify based on their belief systems which support the facts as they see them.  If you are incapable of seeing, then it is often because you may not believe in what you see.
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Objectivity

Post  Sparma on Thu Jun 01, 2017 12:54 am

Great stuff, BallinD.

I always wondered if objectivity was especially difficult to attain for local writers (a) because the needed access might diminish if coverage is unfavorable and (b) because there's a kind of symbiotic relationship between sports teams and local media, with both profiting from the same product, creating a shared motive to promote. I realize that some writers, maybe especially in certain locations like NY, gain readership by being ruthlessly critical. It looks like a tough business, with a lot to balance.

BallinD wrote:Agreed on fairly evaluate.  While trying to see clearly, I do not give players the Pistons cushion.  I do not toe the party line, I try to be objective and not pick favorites.  We are all astute observers, each in our own way, and I respect that.  I have found many bloggers, reporters and forumites (here and elsewhere) simply repeat what authority figures have said until the consensus view is debunked or they are confronted on BS.  I am a former Detroit News staff writer, so I know something about what objectivity is supposed to look like.

When I highlight certain points, it is because everybody or most everybody is toeing the company line and I feel the alternative facts need highlighting to prevent GroupThink; hate it.  It is like by the sheer volume of the people repeating the lie, someone must also shout out the alternative facts.  This is a forum though, and we all want the Pistons to win or get back in a position to win.  

IMHO, Win Now is not an option for many reasons, including coach, team composition, GS and Cleveland, stockpiled assets (we have none) lack of a star.

I want us to get in position to win, meaning we must play chess not checkers, must not misrepresent where we actually are.  If you don't know where you are, you cannot figure out how to get to the next developmental step.  If you won't admit where you are because you are a homer, or have vested interest in overstating the team's position, or simply repeat what everyone else says, then that is a hindrance, not a help, and we need all the help we can get if we will be "Going to Work." guitar














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Fairly Evaluate

Post  BallinD on Wed May 31, 2017 10:21 pm

Agreed on fairly evaluate. While trying to see clearly, I do not give players the Pistons cushion. I do not toe the party line, I try to be objective and not pick favorites. We are all astute observers, each in our own way, and I respect that. I have found many bloggers, reporters and forumites (here and elsewhere) simply repeat what authority figures have said until the consensus view is debunked or they are confronted on BS. I am a former Detroit News staff writer, so I know something about what objectivity is supposed to look like.

When I highlight certain points, it is because everybody or most everybody is toeing the company line and I feel the alternative facts need highlighting to prevent GroupThink; hate it. It is like by the sheer volume of the people repeating the lie, someone must also shout out the alternative facts. This is a forum though, and we all want the Pistons to win or get back in a position to win.

IMHO, Win Now is not an option for many reasons, including coach, team composition, GS and Cleveland, stockpiled assets (we have none) lack of a star.

I want us to get in position to win, meaning we must play chess not checkers, must not misrepresent where we actually are. If you don't know where you are, you cannot figure out how to get to the next developmental step. If you won't admit where you are because you are a homer, or have vested interest in overstating the team's position, or simply repeat what everyone else says, then that is a hindrance, not a help, and we need all the help we can get if we will be "Going to Work." guitar














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Re: FORUM

Post  cool breeze on Wed May 31, 2017 9:28 pm

Oracle wrote:My point is that we need to fairly evaluate, not pick and choose.

The main goal is to get the team better, and I admit it's not always straight forward. There's way too much trying to justify a certain conclusion when figuring out the best route to a good result is what's needed.

I'm clear, whatever is good for the team is the way I want to go, and I'm not wedded to any player on this team in that respect, but whatever we do needs to make good business sense because it's hard to recover form bad ones.

We have 3 high paid players in Reggie, Drummond and Harris, and one over paid(for his production) in Leuer, and one soon to be high paid player in KCP, and not one star in the damn group.

Only 3 of these guys have all star potential, Reggie, Drummond & KCP, each does things most NBA players can't. Screw the numbers, I'm always attracted to guys that have out of the ordinary skills, ESPECIALLY if they're young because with proper development, they WILL bloom. 

Harris is who he is and that likely won't change much over the years, that's why he's here, but he is steady if not spectacular, and that too is a gift.

Bottom line to me is that the CAP should rise to a level such that guys like Reggie, Drummond & KCP's salaries aren't a big factor, or give us back the old system because this one isn't working. This is a flaw in the way the NBA is being managed.

Failing that, we simply can't afford these guys, which means we'll never get a star in here unless we draft him or get lucky and find one on the cheap. Without assets to bargain with, you have absolutely nothing to bring talent in with.

Where did you come up with "out of the ordinary skills" when referring to any of the 3 players you mentioned? Your comment made me think about what you said and that is what is cool about this forum.

1. Reggie Jackson: Reggie has lost his skill set. There is something wrong with his motor or lungs not his heart. His defense has always been below average yet he has the long arms and quickness that should allow him to be the best guard defender on the team. When he was healthy and performed incredibly in the closing moments of most games, Jackson had issues with his energy and how to manage it. Everything in him was dedicated to offense maybe because he was the only player on the team that could not be stopped very often when it counted. I really thought that Reggie would have dedicated himself to finding that energy balance that could make him a much better defender. If he didn't have health issues where is seems to be in oxygen debt a lot I think he still could be a great performer. But I do not believe in the knee story line. You are right though that Jackson out of the three players you mentioned has demonstrated special skills.

Andre Drummond: Drummond could be very athletic if he was willing to put in the hard work it takes for a big man to get into elite basketball physical condition. Every elite NBA player now has tortured themselves in the off season to get to that level where they are consistently attacking on offense and are a nightmare on defense. Where Jackson has done the work in the past to be a force in the 4th quarter especially in the late season games where everyone is exhausted, Drummond has gone the other way. He signed the big contract and is now being a brat acting like a child at times. Tell me this if you were lucky enough to make it to the NBA and then had been gifted with Andre Drummond's contract wouldn't you do anything Stan Van Gundy asked you to do for the team? Van Gundy stuck his neck on the line and was given the power to agree to the big contract after all. So if the coach told you after the contract was signed that he wanted Andre to become a better defender and defensive board protector, would you then go out and practice all summer long on the baseline hook shot from 8 feet out? How about at least developing a short jump shot if you are going to ignore the coaches wishes? Then when Stan hires a shooting coach specificially to work with Drummond on his foul shooting, would you blow that idea off and tell the coach to stuff it and that he will make the decision as to which coach he wants to work with? What do you think SVG's gut was telling him when that happened? Did Andre go to the owner and complain and the owner than told SVG to keep the shooting coach away from his star player? Something smells. I can't believe that SVG would let Drummond push him around and do whatever he thought was best especially when he still sucked at the line. Something is really wrong with Andre Drummond. In high school if a kid came up to me and told me what he wanted to do, that player would be at the end of the bench regardless of if that kid was the son of the athletic director or Assistant superintendent. That happened to me by the way. The kid was a guard who would not pass the basketball or play defense. He thought that he had some special political power that protected him. He came around eventually but no coach can let a player be the person in charge unless you are Labron James who would never pull that kind of crap. I believe that SVG has not acted like he is in charge when it comes to Drummond and maybe he has taken that course of being a pussy because of his experience with Dwight Howard. Stan is willing to eat Andre's crap plan and simple. He has to beg Andre to play with more energy. Andre Drummond for that reason is not in the category of a player who ever can become special or elite. That type of player will end up like Charlie V. Those two players look the same to me. If ever management could make a trade now before it is too late, then it should be done.

KCP: I just cannot figure out how fans or management could place Pope when thinking of NBA players in the realm of elite. I have never seen him show " out of the ordinary skills". I hoped like hell he would show that this past season. Out of the ordinary when thinking of starting 2 guards from the past or present has to be something that stands out real clear. Pope is an average defender, average or below average 3 point shooter, below average mid range shooter and he is not a player I would trust to be able to finish at the rim or be able to dribble penetrate under control. Pope is average playing on a team of below average players. He is not a $20 mil a year player. No way in hell.

Tobias Harris: You didn't mention Tobias for some reason. He is the best player on the team . Harris does know when to drive into the paint and finish. He does have a mid range game. He is a smart player as well. But the point guards do not fit Harris. No Piston player fits our point guard's style. But I expect Harris to become the captain and fight for a better offensive game plan.

Still I really am enjoying everyone's posts in this off season. Are we covering all the bases better than Stan Van Gundy?

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Ballin

Post  Oracle on Wed May 31, 2017 8:27 pm

My point is that we need to fairly evaluate, not pick and choose.

The main goal is to get the team better, and I admit it's not always straight forward. There's way too much trying to justify a certain conclusion when figuring out the best route to a good result is what's needed.

I'm clear, whatever is good for the team is the way I want to go, and I'm not wedded to any player on this team in that respect, but whatever we do needs to make good business sense because it's hard to recover form bad ones.

We have 3 high paid players in Reggie, Drummond and Harris, and one over paid(for his production) in Leuer, and one soon to be high paid player in KCP, and not one star in the damn group.

Only 3 of these guys have all star potential, Reggie, Drummond & KCP, each does things most NBA players can't. Screw the numbers, I'm always attracted to guys that have out of the ordinary skills, ESPECIALLY if they're young because with proper development, they WILL bloom. 

Harris is who he is and that likely won't change much over the years, that's why he's here, but he is steady if not spectacular, and that too is a gift.

Bottom line to me is that the CAP should rise to a level such that guys like Reggie, Drummond & KCP's salaries aren't a big factor, or give us back the old system because this one isn't working. This is a flaw in the way the NBA is being managed.

Failing that, we simply can't afford these guys, which means we'll never get a star in here unless we draft him or get lucky and find one on the cheap. Without assets to bargain with, you have absolutely nothing to bring talent in with.
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I left Some Stuff Out

Post  BallinD on Wed May 31, 2017 5:02 pm

Oracle:  It was a long article.  I left out this and this, below.  Most of what you posted were paragraphs that led with the word "If" and talked about potential.  Look, I want the good KCP to be the KCP we re-sign, but I have lots of doubts and the facts bear out my pessimism.  Especially, since Stupid Van Gundy has clearly annointed KCP our reigning Michael Curry (We will play him all game no matter how poorly he plays.)

SBNation:

It’s also worth considering whether it really was KCP’s shoulder injury that impacted him so severely. After all, his performance actually got worse as he got further away from the injury. After a full month back on the court, KCP shot 36 percent from the field and 28 percent from three while also playing lousy defense in March and April. So perhaps there were other factors at play. While not intending to make more of the incident than it deserves, it is worth noting that during this final stretch while he was playing so poorly KCP was also arrested on suspicion of driving under the influence.

And regardless of the cause for his ineffectiveness, it’s on Caldwell-Pope to figure out how to still be an asset on the court when his jumper isn’t falling. He was unable to adjust this season the way that he did in 2015-16 when his three point shot stopped falling, continuing to rely on his jumper even when it wasn’t reliable. Only 13 percent of his shots came from the restricted area after his shoulder injury, compared to 24 percent in 2015-16. Low BBIQ, He got worse the further he was from his injury, not better, just as our stretch run commenced.

SBNation:

Perhaps the biggest reason to pay KCP is his defense. However as Mike pointed out, KCP’s defense isn’t elite, and it’s easy to mistake activity for achievement in that area. Caldwell-Pope typically plays with nice energy on defense, but his results haven’t typically matched up with that energy. He still shows potential on that end, but potential is still a theory. Without those results, he’s not a particularly valuable player.

His 14 points per game on 52 percent true shooting percentage with a few rebounds and assists puts him in the company of the likes of Sean Kilpatrick or Brandon Knight. The Nets signed Kilpatrick out of the D-League and paid him less than $1 million this year. The Pistons are looking to be paying KCP in the $20 million neighborhood. That’s not exactly cost effective.
But, oh no, we can't in any way replace KCP??

And even at his best, the salary Caldwell-Pope will command is a questionable investment. While he’s shown signs of being a solid starting shooting guard, there’s not been flashes of being a star. But we’re talking about a star-level contract.
 If we can't S&T him, then we may be stuck, I agree.  Your points are not wrong:

1. We can go over the CAP to sign KCP, we can't do that with any other SG of value, but we seriously need to NOT pay KCP the max if we can avoid it.
2. Do a sign and trade of KCP if you can get the assets back. NJ sounds good on paper, but we can't get anybody in return and they have the cash to hurt us.
2. Move Harris, there are many role players to be had, likely some sitting on the bench. He is the easiest one to replace Easy is not always best.  We may be just as good, rolling with Bullock and SJ role players sitting on our bench.  Plus, Isiah Thomas pointed out you don't put your best scorer on the bench.  Tobias is not being used properly by SVG and Reggie hates him (will not usually pass to him in the flow of the offense for whatever reason) but we didn't draft him so no loyalty.
3. Get Ellenson into the starting lineup, even if you have to use a shoe horn.

Then see how the season progresses and then make your deals with the valuable assets you control.


Last edited by BallinD on Wed May 31, 2017 7:56 pm; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : oops)
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Don is finally right about something...

Post  Oracle on Wed May 31, 2017 2:12 pm

Ballin has done this twice, and only he knows why.

In that article they offer a VERY fair and balanced analysis and pose a good question. The question appears to be rather easy, but there are nuances to the answer, but basically it's a very good article.

It also shows why the fantasy of Harris is just that. Harris is a role player, not capable of putting any team on his back and leading them home and there's nothing wrong with that, he has a needed skill required by all good teams.

Any normal analysis always comes down to 3 people on this team with the greatest potential, Reggie, Drummond & KCP. But first, let's review what Ballin left out!

http://www.detroitbadboys.com/2017/5/31/15643320/detroit-pistons-need-choose-andre-drummond-kentavious-caldwell-pope-nba-free-agency wrote:There were more than a handful of games this season where the Pistons were dead in the water until Caldwell-Pope caught fire offensively. He’s absolutely become one of those guys with a knack for “the moment,” who you want taking the shot when the game is on the line. Not to mention he also has the potential to be one of the top perimeter defenders in the league, even if his results don’t always tend to keep up with the eye test yet at this point. 

If you sign KCP to a max contract, you’re betting on the first half of this season being who he is going forward. Although you’re not a 40 percent three point shooter if you only shoot that mark through half the season, it’s at least an indicator of potential. For instance, Jimmy Butler took a nice step forward this season, posting career highs in scoring, scoring efficiency, rebounding, and assists. That improvement didn’t just come out of nowhere. In 2015-16 Butler posted a very similar line before the All-Star break, then faded down the stretch. 

If KCP is able to put together a full season like he did before his injury, salary isn’t much of an issue. He wasn’t just a three-and-D player, but an integral piece the offense. He carried a heavier role as a secondary ball handler, something that was previously a weakness for him. He was the team’s closer in the fourth quarter, regularly putting the team on his back in key moments. Even with his poor final stretch, KCP still led the team in second half scoring. 

This speaks to the difference in mentality between the two players. It’s impossible to say the cause in the difference, but we can speak to the results. KCP just seems to show a greater resilience. After a lousy shooting night, KCP has shown the ability to put his struggles earlier in the game behind him and step up to make huge shots. Like against the Hornets on February 23, when KCP started off 5-18 shooting through the first 45 minutes of the game. Then he reeled off 11 points in the final 2:20 of the fourth quarter, including nailing a three to send the game into overtime.
You really need to see the article to view the video that puts Don's silly statements about KCP's handles and dribbling to a complete and total lie.

However, the main point of the article is justified, how do you keep two players that are struggling to put it all together on the payroll and survive? The answer is easy, you just do it or you trade for something better.

It's usless to keep explaining the business of what we need to do when guys like Don just turn around and say things that make you shake your head. For those of us that are more concerned about the team than wanting to grind some player into the dust, here's the logical situational options we have.

1. We can go over the CAP to sign KCP, we can't do that with any other SG of value, but we seriously need to NOT pay KCP the max if we can avoid it.
2. Do a sign and trade of KCP if you can get the assets back. NJ sounds good on paper, but we can't get anybody in return and they have the cash to hurt us.
2. Move Harris, there are many role players to be had, likely some sitting on the bench. He is the easiest one to replace
3. Get Ellenson into the starting lineup, even if you have to use a shoe horn.

Then see how the season progresses and then make your deals with the valuable assets you control.

Here's the bet the Pistons make if they keep both Drummond & KCP:
1. Drummond gives up trying to be "The Dream" and focuses on defense! If this happens we get a BEAST in the middle capable of defending the rim and providing great help defense like Ben Wallace. A lot to expect, but certainly withing the physical capabilities of Drummond.

2. KCP, only coming off his rookie contract, finally puts it all together. His defense comes into balance, he breaks from sitting out on the 3 point line and uses his speed to get to the rim and pull up for jumpers or floaters. But this only happens with the right PG, and can Reggie be that guy?

I agree with SVG, no player on this team is untouchable, but whatever we do needs to make sense for the TEAM, and we have to take the emotion out of the decision.
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You didn't miss anything important, but maybe I did...

Post  Oracle on Wed May 31, 2017 2:09 pm

The part I don't get is in bold below.

Just what is the fear? If he's more physical that he may have to shoot free throws?

That doesn't make any sense to me, and if I'm the coach, I say keep attacking and foul them out. Never back down for this fear, it makes no sense.

But the only reason I believe Drummond doesn't do it is because he fears HE will be called for the foul and be taken out of the game.

This is again a bad reason and something the coach needs to address. If he doesn't start doing this, the refs will never get used to his style and he'll never learn how to modify his physical approach to be within the limits.

This is all coaching, SVG is missing the boat, or I'm way off base.
Lemonpen wrote:What "specifically" didn't you like about what Stan said.

SVG quotes (to the best of my recollection)

" the most immediate and impactful change Dre can make is on defense"

" improved free throw shooting will be tough"

" in practice Dre plays the more physical offensive game we want to see, but his subconscience fear of free throw shooting causes him defer to a softer style in-game"

" the organization had no stomach for the long term loosing associated with full out tanking"

SVG " doesn't believe full out tanking works (works = championship contender), and has seen no model of success"

" no one on this roster is untouchable"

" our contract status will limit the way in which the roster can be improved".

What did I miss?
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Re: FORUM

Post  cool breeze on Wed May 31, 2017 1:34 pm

BallinD wrote:After listening to the SVG interview with Valenti 97.1 FM, (On Freep.com) and after reading the insightful article referenced below "Pistons need to choose Andre Drummond or KCP:  Drummond or KCP and now hearing we may trade the pick in some delusional "Win Now" game of Smoke and Mirrors concocted by SVG, I am in shock.

Instead of trying to get another pick in this deep draft and position ourselves for the post-LeBron era, we dump our pick and roll with the core that rolls over for lottery teams playing their scrubs!?!?!?

But if we trade the pick and double down on our core, but add a grizzled veteran shooter, well won't that be fun to watch.  And on top of that, we hear Baynes may come back to put Boban (our "gifted scorer") back in his place on the bench.  This nightmare scenario is exactly why you don't put a veteran, glycemic, disingenuous, hyperbolic and narcissistic coach in charge of player personnell.  

The ship of fools is sailing...All Aboard!

Ballin this is why I am calling out Tom Gores to get control of his team before Stan Van Gundy does trade our pick. I am worried that Stan the Man will sign his old shooting guard who recently stated that he loved playing for Stan Van Gundy. It appears certain that SVG wants to return all of his dysfunctional core players for one more go around. Then Stan will walk away with a job well done in his attempt to ruin the future of the Detroit Pistons. He will laugh with his brother who is by far the worst announcer I have heard do a finals game. I have to turn the sound off to tolerate watching the games. Mr. Gores is just as much at fault as SVG has been in creating this mess. Now it is time to step in and stop the insanity. Is Stan's big project this summer working on trading the first round pick just to trade his bogus signing of Leuer? Those who believe that SVG is now the fool who other GMs will take advantage of might be correct. He is desperate and desperate people do stupid things. SVG needs to dig deep into his past and remember how he acted when he was an outstanding assistant coach in his younger days. I was in shock as to how badly he handled his dysfunctional players last season. He was not a leader. He was an appeaser who spent more time concentrating on politics than what was happening with his Piston team. While Stan might have talked about Drummond's need to concentrate on becoming a better defender, what steps has SVG made to force Drummond to comply? I don't hear Drummond talking about spending the summer with Kevin Garnett or someone else who will tell Andre the facts of life and not treat him like a little baby cub like Stan does. Andre says everyone just needs more rest. He is laughing at Stan Van Gundy and playing him like a fiddle.

The only person who can right the ship is Tom Gores. It won't be Stan Van Gundy. He will run the ship into the ground and walk away unless the owner either fires him or limits Stan's ability to make any more free agent signings.

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"Pistons need to choose: Andre Drummond or Kentavious Caldwell-Pope" is a must read

Post  cool breeze on Wed May 31, 2017 1:11 pm

Ballin provided important details in his post that this article provided. I noticed that most fans who took the quiz picked Pope by a wide margin over Drummond as the player to remain on the roster. The quiz didn't offer the option of keeping neither player. The other article "The Pistons need to choose: Andre Drummond or Kentavious Caldwell-Pope" selects Pope and provides some compelling reasons why. I know there are some of you who believe in Andre Drummond and do not want to part with the big guy. But if there is an opportunity for management to trade him before training camp I guarantee that by the end of next season you will be happy campers and in love with the new group of more fundamentally sound NBA players or the possibility of getting a really high draft pick that could be included in a trade for Drummond.

If Drummond goes Detroit is no longer in a horrible financial position. But if they do not sign Pope and can draft one of the shooting guards in the draft, Detroit is in an even better financial standing able to pick off some top talent. The sky is the limit if they dump both Andre and KCP. Although the reasons stated in the article " The Pistons need to choose" provide the worst case scenario especially relating to the effect on Detroit's defense with Pope's departure, I don't believe that would be the case. What if Pope leaves, Detroit does sign Bullock and he is healthy and plays up to his capability and is a better player than Pope next year? He has all the tools required. Bullock is a good defender and maybe better than Pope. Notice in both articles the writers did not give Pope a really high defensive rating. Pope is average at best and was not effective as an all ball defender against the top rated guards in their match ups last season. I was hoping to see that he could stop players like Wall and Beal or at least slow them down but it didn't happen. By signing Bullock Detroit has some insurance and the way the system is structured Bullock should be retained of a reasonable amount of money if Pope leaves. But my gut tells me that Stanley Johnson will be a really solid player next year and if he is placed in a starting role, that will give him the confidence he needs to become a star player. Johnson is capable of stopping some of the best skills players in the league. He is a smarter defender than Pope will ever be. Detroit should draft the best possible player regardless of position but preferably shooting guard or a power forward with outside shooting and defensive skills.

If Detroit dumps both players the highest paid player is Harris. He should be the captain of the team. By being the captain, the nonsense will end relating to the Reggie-Andre insanity who were the most dysfunctional team leaders I have ever witnessed.

It does not appear that the experts believe that any sign and trade could be worked out with Pope but it is worth a try at least. The most important job Piston management needs to work on this summer is working out a trade for Drummond. Then the pieces will fall in place and the Pistons will have a much brighter future. Please make this happen Mr. Gores. It appears that Drummond still has value or at least more than I thought. Boston, Phoenix, LA Lakers, Philly who else might be the perfect trade partner for the Detroit Pistons??? Do not trade this draft pick for a older weak defender who might have been a good 3 point shooter in his day.

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DX

Post  BallinD on Wed May 31, 2017 12:57 pm

After listening to the SVG interview with Valenti 97.1 FM, (On Freep.com) and after reading the insightful article referenced below "Pistons need to choose Andre Drummond or KCP:  Drummond or KCP and now hearing we may trade the pick in some delusional "Win Now" game of Smoke and Mirrors concocted by SVG, I am in shock.

Instead of trying to get another pick in this deep draft and position ourselves for the post-LeBron era, we dump our pick and roll with the core that rolls over for lottery teams playing their scrubs!?!?!?

But if we trade the pick and double down on our core, but add a grizzled veteran shooter, well won't that be fun to watch.  And on top of that, we hear Baynes may come back to put Boban (our "gifted scorer") back in his place on the bench.  This nightmare scenario is exactly why you don't put a veteran, glycemic, disingenuous, hyperbolic and narcissistic coach in charge of player personnell.  

The ship of fools is sailing...All Aboard!
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Sometimes your face can be too close to the truth

Post  deusXango on Wed May 31, 2017 10:51 am

BallinD wrote:"Of players who took at least 900 field goal attempts last season, Andre Drummond finished 2016-17 with the sixth-lowest true shooting percentage. Wanna take a guess who was just one notch better? That’s right, Kentavious Caldwell-Pope.
(Our Best Player??)
And this isn’t an anomaly. Last season, Drummond had the fifth-lowest TS while KCP had the 12th-lowest. In 2014-15 the pair finished eighth and seventh, respectively. They’ve developed a pretty strong track record of offensive inefficiency."

Shocked  facepalm
BallinD, I've missed your insights lately and you're welcome to jump in at anytime; it's a welcome and friendly gesture when forum participants don't act as if they can't read others posts. Dialogue is what makes this forum go. With that being said, whatever your frame of reference was, this is some eye-opening sh!t. I'd love for a comparison of Jackson vs. Smith's numbers (just from last year)...the reason being is to actually see what the 3rd highest payroll bought, or rather, what SVG invested in, in not only money, but time.

This gets weirder and weirder; dump Drummond (athletic big men grow on trees), sign KCP to whatever the market demands (some team with the money and smarts can/will? bury the Pistons in CAP hell by tendering an outrageous offer sheet to KCP) and set this franchise back for the next decade, ignoring the fact that we're going to war starting a gimpy PG that hogs the ball, is only inclined to play a selfish brand of basketball, and has no explosion to the basket, and the cherry on top of all this is to trade away our "hard earned" #12 pick. Fans are eating this sh!t up and ownership is not batting an eye; this is the death knell of basketball in Detroit. I can still barely hear the echoes SVG's ignorant, loud-mouthed brother saying, "Stan has no interest in going to Detroit...I mean why would he leave sunny Florida to go there?" Well it seems it was to kill a franchise that has gone to where he's unable to take it on his own.

#12 can bring in a valuable piece! It's important to know who to build around, at this point, and commit to that player. IMHO it's not one of our current "Big 3." If SVG is all the man he pretends to be, he'll begin a coach search now and fire himself as coach, while Bower evaluates talent for the upcoming draft; that takes a humility that I doubt SVG has. If both Jackson and KCP are more valuable than Drummond, why is it so much easier to find a trade partner for Drummond than those two? We should've struck while the iron was hot...in my heart of hearts, I truly believe that there was a time the Pistons could've landed another lottery pick and a 2nd rounder, by making a trade of Jackson, Leuer. Moot points now.Sad
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Mortgage Future to Be Mediocre

Post  BallinD on Wed May 31, 2017 2:45 am

Sparma:  But now the market's turned against us. We're left chasing the premium asset (shooting) with shaky offerings in return (at least as perceived by the league). What to do if you're SVG? No doubt a #12 is highly valued, and if packaged (Leuer?), a decent shooter can be brought to the D. Hence the rumors, which I'm inclined to think have some substance.

That kinda makes sense given the circumstances in which we find ourselves, but it's still dumb. Having done a bunch of smart things, SVG may be on the verge of leveraging the future for a halfway decent immediate return.


So I ask, what can we possibly get for #12 pick that is gonna take us over the top and suddenly contend when our core is as described in SB Nation Detroit Bad Boys:

Talk about we were only 7 games worse than last year's team.  How did we accomplish that, I ask?  We pooped the bed in the stretch run, being blown out by non-playoff teams competing for nothing and not even playing their starters.  Is that to be forgotten??  It matters!!  The team laid down!  The Core laid down!!  Facts matter and how the facts occur matter.

I wish it weren't so, but that's like wishing you didn't see your girl cheating on you, or didn't see your homie selling you out.  So, yeah, let's max KCP like we did Dre.  They are two peas in a pod.

"Of players who took at least 900 field goal attempts last season, Andre Drummond finished 2016-17 with the sixth-lowest true shooting percentage. Wanna take a guess who was just one notch better? That’s right, Kentavious Caldwell-Pope.
(Our Best Player??)
And this isn’t an anomaly. Last season, Drummond had the fifth-lowest TS while KCP had the 12th-lowest. In 2014-15 the pair finished eighth and seventh, respectively. They’ve developed a pretty strong track record of offensive inefficiency."

"Including his player option, the Pistons have more than $100 million invested in Drummond through 2021. Of course, this was a rough season for Dre. Going on his third straight season of nearly identical results, the worry is that he’s plateaued as a Hall-of-Fame-level rebounder, replacement-level offensive player, and G-League level defensive player. That’s not someone you want to pay $100 million."

So with that, we will double down and give up more of our future (first round pick) to continue to be mediocre so Stan can get the smoke machine cranked up one more time, as opposed to a true strategy for getting the team in a position to actually compete after Lebron fades into the sunset. Shocked  facepalm
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The truth hurts

Post  Sparma on Tue May 30, 2017 9:44 pm

I've quoted what Lemonpen reported SVG said below.

Well, let's see.

Y'all know that I think that if Philly a contender in the foreseeable future it will be fair/ necessary to say: before Sam Hinkie left Philly (//was pressured out), he successfully gathered the parts that led to contention. Foolishly maybe, I'd gladly trade Hinkie's success with what SVG has wrought in the D, promising as it was at the outset. But enough about that.

Contra Don, I like what SVG said about Drummond. He's confrontational but constructive: D is the way forward; I know you care deeply about O, AD, but you're letting your embarrassment about FTs get in the way of what you care about. Not a bad teaching approach, I think, to a proud and sensitive guy like AD.

BUT the truth hurts: "our contract status will limit the way in which the roster can be improved". No doubt. You had to have a higher return by now, SVG, to garner broad confidence in your incremental approach which may well have been the smart way to go in the past, given the options. But now the market's turned against us. We're left chasing the premium asset (shooting) with shaky offerings in return (at least as perceived by the league). What to do if you're SVG? No doubt a #12 is highly valued, and if packaged (Leuer?), a decent shooter can be brought to the D. Hence the rumors, which I'm inclined to think have some substance.

That kinda makes sense given the circumstances in which we find ourselves, but it's still dumb. Having done a bunch of smart things, SVG may be on the verge of leveraging the future for a halfway decent immediate return.

Contrast the type of move needed in a hemmed in position (which SVG signals himself, in sugarcoated fashion) with Hinkie's credo of making trades for the long term, exploiting team's immediate cravings (eg landing the #3 pick from Sac). That was us, not long ago. Morris on the cheap in order to make a bid for Aldridge, anyone? SVG pounced, making an asymmetrical trade. Looks to me like now he's the one in the position so desirous of immediate upgrade (not unrelated to job security) that he's the one apt to be exploited, in the long run. They've got a smart front office team, so maybe they'll manage to make it work, but the odds are no longer in their favor, something I'm hearing SVG admitting in his prize winning fashion.

Lemonpen reports:

"What "specifically" didn't you like about what Stan said.

SVG quotes (to the best of my recollection)

" the most immediate and impactful change Dre can make is on defense"

" improved free throw shooting will be tough"

" in practice Dre plays the more physical offensive game we want to see, but his subconscience fear of free throw shooting causes him defer to a softer style in-game"

" the organization had no stomach for the long term loosing associated with full out tanking"

SVG " doesn't believe full out tanking works (works = championship contender), and has seen no model of success"

" no one on this roster is untouchable"

" our contract status will limit the way in which the roster can be improved".

What did I miss?"
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While some believe the only way to build a big winner now is through the draft, could it be that SVG will actually trade our first round pick?

Post  cool breeze on Tue May 30, 2017 8:01 pm

A friend of mine said once Stan was hired he would be a short timer. Stan Van Gundy is not built for the long haul of being patient for years if necessary to build a solid base of players. His health is not good or so it appears with his excess weight and shaking in the hands and face. I am seriously worried about this man being able to do any of the jobs he was hired to do. Is he too tired to take on the task of properly evaluating the players on the roster or his assistant coaches before the next season gets underway? Has his judgment been sound in either category on his signing of players or hiring of assistant coaches. What are the standards set for the assistant coaches? How is their communication going with the players? Why hasn't Stan or any of his assistant coaches with the exception of the coach who handles the rookies helped improve any player in three seasons? Instead the players are actually worse now. How could that happen?

Stan Van Gundy has directed a loose ship. Under his reign players have become less disciplined. Last season it was very evident that Stan did not have any control of his key players. There was no accountability. The Pistons would start out games where the big men were always getting beat in transition that resulted in easy layups. Power forwards and centers played with their arms down and didn't move their feet. They switched (especially Drummond) when guards and small forwards were properly guarding their man staying in front of them with their arms moving. Then especially Andre would switch onto the Piston guard's man for no reason and then force the guard to defend a center. This switch happened inside the paint. The coach did nothing about it. Andre only made the switch because his man was moving and he didn't want to move for go body to body with a big player. Andre would avoid the physical contact his man would dish out. The coach did nothing. Leuer would reach and not switch when he should switch as well. This dysfunctional defensive play went on for months while the Piston paint leaked like a broken water pipe. Meanwhile when the Pistons did get a stop and were running in transition often Pope would suddenly launch a 3 point shot way out of his range sometimes 4 feet beyond the 3 point line. There would be at times two open players on the baselines and he shot it anyway. This usually resulted in a transition basket by the opponent. Night after night of mindless basketball where players were not playing together as a team. Nobody was setting screens in the starting lineup. To see that happen the 2nd unit would have to be on the court. All of this has been ignored by many fans who have a very short memory. But what is most disturbing is the Piston coaching staff who let it all happen as if it was not happening.

Detroit has had many teams that could not figure out how to win many games. But there were always some players who played the right way. And I always felt that the coaching staffs were trying at least to instill some discipline and accountability for the team. Over the last 6 weeks of the season, we had no team at all. We had a group of individuals who individually played anyway they wanted to night after night. There was no trust among the players. The players did not respect the coaches. The coaches ignored every principle i know relating to getting all the players to play as a team making sacrifices for each other to obtain a favorable result. The coaches have created a monster. Now the head coach is thinking about trading our first round pick. He doesn't want to bother teaching another young player how to play the right way. Stan has not been able to get the vets to play the right way. It is time for the entire coaching staff to go. Stan is a short timer who is not looking out for the long term success of the Detroit Pistons. Maybe Tom Gores is ready to sell the team as well. I have never seen anything like this in my life regarding the way this Piston organization operates. It is time to hire a younger GM and a younger head coach. The path this team is going on now is nowhere. Success means getting lucky and winning the 8 sport in the playoffs. The other bad teams will start a rebuild and be ahead of Detroit in two years.

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Re: FORUM

Post  cool breeze on Tue May 30, 2017 3:37 pm

lemonpen wrote:
deusXango wrote:In the talent gamble game and the odds are stacked against you, why not trade a $80 million player for whatever you can get when he's obviously in great decline? Denial is not a viable solution nor will false hope fix things in a business...trade that player, if/when you can. Take the Pistons for instance who have a $18 million player who clearly outperformed a $80 million player, by progressively improving over the course of 21 games and had the team playing an exciting and competitive brand of basketball, but because of past performance (a one year contributor to the playoff run) we held our collective breath as the established flow turned to a trickle, waiting on the high-priced player to regain his mojo...didn't matter that the team became sluggish, and disconnected trying to follow the leadership of their floor general and the record plummeted to an unexpected low. It seems to me that a "pennies on the dollar" player can be of value and looking at the playoffs this year, there were a lot of "pennies on the dollar" players that made quite an impact on the competitive side of the ball. It ain't the money or the hype that wins games, but fit and cohesiveness of team play.

Nobody seems to care for Ish Smith, but he had Drummond routinely putting up 20/20 games (in which we won) before changes were made; KCP, Marcus Morris, and Tobias Harris were looking like a well oiled, unstoppable, offensive machine and the wins started to consistently pile up and then, changes were made. We had one of the leading defenses in the NBA, before the changes, and Ish Smith was the "pennies on the dollar" little engine that was making things work...he and a guy named Beno, another "pennies on the dollar" player! Some will say that it wasn't all on Smith and Udrih, but those same voices would shout accolades from the rooftops for the high-priced player, if the roles were reversed.

Our backs are against the money wall, when it comes to expenditures, and we're talking about the need for superstars in the media, but our "Going To Work" crew has shown the world that it's not necessary to have superstars to consistently win in the NBA; we had a monkey wrench thrown into the development of a good group of young players before we could see what they could do. Oracle has suggested the importance of addressing matters of business for the teams future and I totally agree; KCP needs to be retained, but if we keep hope alive by repeating last years folly and sign KCP to a max contract, going over the luxury tax threshold by say $15 million, we've got a $40 million a year SG! Is that sound business? Though he doesn’t have to, all Van Gundy has to know – and he does – is that Jackson is not close to the performer he was a season ago. And that he may never be again...trade him for pennies on the dollar, sign KCP (who's healthy), and roll with Smith as our floor general. Our next money challenge is to find a trade partner for Leuer, so that Ellenson can get an opportunity to develop on the pro floor, and our payroll will drop with the exchange of Leuer's over-priced contract for Kennard's rookie contract.

I've gone too far, but to keep it simple, SVG has made some f@cked up changes, that's cost the team valuable development time, isn't it time he made some 21st century NBA coaching changes that'll benefit us all? If I can see a way out of this potential mess, that'll last for years if not addressed logically, I know a professional mind can grasp the need to reengineer this team and make it better. If Reggie goes on to become an All-Star, God bless him, we want to be in the business of bringing down giants!

I could not agree more with taking whatever we can get for Reggie and rolling with ISH & Beno. Otherwise, it makes no sense to resign KCP. KCP+RJAX = Oil&H2O.

As far as I'm concerned Leuer would have to return as a completely different guy in order to continue as the starting PF. Otherwise Ellenson gets the nod and JL the pine.

What is taking Baynes so long to opt out. Or did I miss the announcement.



I was hoping SVG told Baynes that he was going to trade Andre Drummond before training camp. That would free up $24 million and no worries as to if Andre has it in him to ever play smart and hard. I am not sure what it would take to sign Baynes but SVG likes him. I see some shortcomings with Baynes as well but there is no doubt that he doesn't back down on defense in the paint. Baynes and Boban share the center spot. Right now I would take a 2nd round pick and lose Drummond's contract. But I know that I a lot of fans still love the big guy and feel he can change now that he has had the nose surgery. But he is getting the kind of money the 24 year old Anthony Davis has earned though superior performances and hard work. I still believe that by just by losing the contracts of both Jackson and Drummond the Detroit Pistons are big winners. When a team plays the way Detroit played in the last half of the season no owner should be playing anywhere near max money for any player. No player on the roster stood out during the big slide. Get the payroll way down by losing lemons and sit back and pick off the young talent until you score two stud players and then build a new team around those two guys. I do like the potential of Harris but everyone else is just a big question mark. Knowing Cleveland is going to be at the top of the heap for at least two or more years, build a team with less flaws for less money until the team has some superior talent. Why build for the 8th spot in the playoffs. With the current players, 12th spot in the draft lottery is about right for them. It seems that many people have bonded with the idea that Pope needs to be signed or it will be the end of the world. To me Stuckey had better potential than Pope when he was KCP's age. And I never believed Stuckey was in the category of a superior player. Paying Pope the money his agent is asking for will never make him a superior player. Stuckey seemed to be more consistent as a player on both ends but was injury prone. Pope has been able to endure playing a lot of minutes but you need to have luck in the injury department. What if Pope gets the big money and he either doesn't become a superior player or now suffers a series of injuries? Signing Pope is a huge gamble that should not be taken. For those who believe the other way, I never see any details provided as to what Pope brings to the team that we can't do without. Does he bring stability and predictability based on consistency from previous seasons? The last half of this season was not so good. He did hit some 3 point shots in two games in the 4th quarter that were amazing. Hamilton was a scoring machine almost every night. He looked the same in the 1st quarter as he did in the 4th running full blast from the weak side to the strong side and back again to get himself open for the deadly mid range shot. He ran all summer long getting himself in supreme condition so he could perform at the highest level for an entire season and the playoffs. This management team for the Pistons needs to get a lot smarter and find superior players and then lock them up for the long ride up to the top of the heap. Any mistake made ( such as the Andre Drummond and Reggie Jackson mistakes) will prevent and thought of the Detroit Pistons ever competing for a championship.

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Yep

Post  lemonpen on Tue May 30, 2017 1:52 pm

deusXango wrote:In the talent gamble game and the odds are stacked against you, why not trade a $80 million player for whatever you can get when he's obviously in great decline? Denial is not a viable solution nor will false hope fix things in a business...trade that player, if/when you can. Take the Pistons for instance who have a $18 million player who clearly outperformed a $80 million player, by progressively improving over the course of 21 games and had the team playing an exciting and competitive brand of basketball, but because of past performance (a one year contributor to the playoff run) we held our collective breath as the established flow turned to a trickle, waiting on the high-priced player to regain his mojo...didn't matter that the team became sluggish, and disconnected trying to follow the leadership of their floor general and the record plummeted to an unexpected low. It seems to me that a "pennies on the dollar" player can be of value and looking at the playoffs this year, there were a lot of "pennies on the dollar" players that made quite an impact on the competitive side of the ball. It ain't the money or the hype that wins games, but fit and cohesiveness of team play.

Nobody seems to care for Ish Smith, but he had Drummond routinely putting up 20/20 games (in which we won) before changes were made; KCP, Marcus Morris, and Tobias Harris were looking like a well oiled, unstoppable, offensive machine and the wins started to consistently pile up and then, changes were made. We had one of the leading defenses in the NBA, before the changes, and Ish Smith was the "pennies on the dollar" little engine that was making things work...he and a guy named Beno, another "pennies on the dollar" player! Some will say that it wasn't all on Smith and Udrih, but those same voices would shout accolades from the rooftops for the high-priced player, if the roles were reversed.

Our backs are against the money wall, when it comes to expenditures, and we're talking about the need for superstars in the media, but our "Going To Work" crew has shown the world that it's not necessary to have superstars to consistently win in the NBA; we had a monkey wrench thrown into the development of a good group of young players before we could see what they could do. Oracle has suggested the importance of addressing matters of business for the teams future and I totally agree; KCP needs to be retained, but if we keep hope alive by repeating last years folly and sign KCP to a max contract, going over the luxury tax threshold by say $15 million, we've got a $40 million a year SG! Is that sound business? Though he doesn’t have to, all Van Gundy has to know – and he does – is that Jackson is not close to the performer he was a season ago. And that he may never be again...trade him for pennies on the dollar, sign KCP (who's healthy), and roll with Smith as our floor general. Our next money challenge is to find a trade partner for Leuer, so that Ellenson can get an opportunity to develop on the pro floor, and our payroll will drop with the exchange of Leuer's over-priced contract for Kennard's rookie contract.

I've gone too far, but to keep it simple, SVG has made some f@cked up changes, that's cost the team valuable development time, isn't it time he made some 21st century NBA coaching changes that'll benefit us all? If I can see a way out of this potential mess, that'll last for years if not addressed logically, I know a professional mind can grasp the need to reengineer this team and make it better. If Reggie goes on to become an All-Star, God bless him, we want to be in the business of bringing down giants!

I could not agree more with taking whatever we can get for Reggie and rolling with ISH & Beno. Otherwise, it makes no sense to resign KCP. KCP+RJAX = Oil&H2O.

As far as I'm concerned Leuer would have to return as a completely different guy in order to continue as the starting PF. Otherwise Ellenson gets the nod and JL the pine.

What is taking Baynes so long to opt out. Or did I miss the announcement.


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Pennies on the dollar? What's that really mean in the NBA?

Post  deusXango on Tue May 30, 2017 12:20 pm

In the talent gamble game and the odds are stacked against you, why not trade a $80 million player for whatever you can get when he's obviously in great decline? Denial is not a viable solution nor will false hope fix things in a business...trade that player, if/when you can. Take the Pistons for instance who have a $18 million player who clearly outperformed a $80 million player, by progressively improving over the course of 21 games and had the team playing an exciting and competitive brand of basketball, but because of past performance (a one year contributor to the playoff run) we held our collective breath as the established flow turned to a trickle, waiting on the high-priced player to regain his mojo...didn't matter that the team became sluggish, and disconnected trying to follow the leadership of their floor general and the record plummeted to an unexpected low. It seems to me that a "pennies on the dollar" player can be of value and looking at the playoffs this year, there were a lot of "pennies on the dollar" players that made quite an impact on the competitive side of the ball. It ain't the money or the hype that wins games, but fit and cohesiveness of team play.

Nobody seems to care for Ish Smith, but he had Drummond routinely putting up 20/20 games (in which we won) before changes were made; KCP, Marcus Morris, and Tobias Harris were looking like a well oiled, unstoppable, offensive machine and the wins started to consistently pile up and then, changes were made. We had one of the leading defenses in the NBA, before the changes, and Ish Smith was the "pennies on the dollar" little engine that was making things work...he and a guy named Beno, another "pennies on the dollar" player! Some will say that it wasn't all on Smith and Udrih, but those same voices would shout accolades from the rooftops for the high-priced player, if the roles were reversed.

Our backs are against the money wall, when it comes to expenditures, and we're talking about the need for superstars in the media, but our "Going To Work" crew has shown the world that it's not necessary to have superstars to consistently win in the NBA; we had a monkey wrench thrown into the development of a good group of young players before we could see what they could do. Oracle has suggested the importance of addressing matters of business for the teams future and I totally agree; KCP needs to be retained, but if we keep hope alive by repeating last years folly and sign KCP to a max contract, going over the luxury tax threshold by say $15 million, we've got a $40 million a year SG! Is that sound business? Though he doesn’t have to, all Van Gundy has to know – and he does – is that Jackson is not close to the performer he was a season ago. And that he may never be again...trade him for pennies on the dollar, sign KCP (who's healthy), and roll with Smith as our floor general. Our next money challenge is to find a trade partner for Leuer, so that Ellenson can get an opportunity to develop on the pro floor, and our payroll will drop with the exchange of Leuer's over-priced contract for Kennard's rookie contract.

I've gone too far, but to keep it simple, SVG has made some f@cked up changes, that's cost the team valuable development time, isn't it time he made some 21st century NBA coaching changes that'll benefit us all? If I can see a way out of this potential mess, that'll last for years if not addressed logically, I know a professional mind can grasp the need to reengineer this team and make it better. If Reggie goes on to become an All-Star, God bless him, we want to be in the business of bringing down giants!
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Re: FORUM

Post  cool breeze on Tue May 30, 2017 12:00 am

lemonpen wrote:
cool breeze wrote:Either this was just one of many spin games where smoke and mirrors are used to distort the facts or Stan Van Gundy did not pay attention to the details regarding his players performances. It looked as if SVG wasn't watching much as he would turn his back to the game action at times to rant to the guys on the bench. But he did stand up a lot and was animated. Who was he watching and what was he looking for as a coach? No Stan was at one time no dummy. He was a good assistant coach earlier in his career. It has to be the spin game being desperate that the new arena will be nearly empty again. He needs support from the fans. He needs people to buy season tickets. But after last season who will be the fool? Maybe after KCP signs his deal, he can get together with Andre and Reggie to buy thousands of season tickets and then give them away and get a tax write off. Will the kids turn up one time and then start turning down the tickets preferring to play ping pong for 3 hours instead. If they have no table then maybe the kids will go to the games.

The truth as to be what is the most plausible rational reality. No team wants Andre Drummond unless the Pistons throw in $10 mil a year until the contract is terminated. No team wants Reggie Jackson so this is the same situation. Finally, once Pope signs his insane deal which to all is a great business decision, then Pope will not be trade material either. Some day maybe at the end of next season, Stan will meet with Tom Gores with his head hanging down and will tell the owner the real truth about how other NBA teams think about our Piston stars. The owner might have to shell out $30 million a year just to move the 3 core players. But maybe the Pistons will get themselves up to the 8th pick in the draft again. Incredible planning goes into building a winning team in Detroit. As SVG says his team is solid at every position. Just a little tweaking is needed like maybe trading Harris and Johnson. Maybe if it is true that those two trouble makers got too nasty with Stan's 3 pet players in the team only meeting challenging the SVG designated team leaders, great things will happen. The Big Three will wake up and become completely different players. Both Andre and Reggie will be among the best defenders in the NBA. Pope will become a good ball handler and see the court better along with averaging 42% on his 3 point shots. Just get rid of the trouble makers Stan. You always tell the truth. Maybe Harris distracted Andre Drummond when Whiteside went up and tipped in the winning basket over Andre who didn't jump. Yes fans just don't know the whole story as Stan bravely told everyone on the radio.

Here I go slipping up again and showing how mean I am. Now I will be scolded by the Oracle once he reads this post. I will have to memorize the following information to get on the right program. Reggie Jackson is a superior player and that is why he earns superior money. Andre Drummond is a superior player and that is why he earns even  more money than Reggie. KCP is a superior player among all the starting guards in the NBA and that is why he will be making superior money too. How can we lose when we have three superior players. Stan better be careful. If he keeps spinning these stories Piston fans will start believing that poor coaching is the entire reason why Detroit was close to being the worst team in the NBA over the last half of last season. While other GMs who didn't make the playoffs are careful and conservative in the amount of hype they offer, Stan is confident in his players who showed very little interest in actually playing basketball last season.

What "specifically" didn't you like about what Stan said.

SVG quotes (to the best of my recollection)

" the most immediate and impactful change Dre can make is on defense"

" improved free throw shooting will be tough"

" in practice Dre plays the more physical offensive game we want to see, but his subconscience fear of free throw shooting causes him defer to a softer style in-game"

" the organization had no stomach for the long term loosing associated with full out tanking"

SVG " doesn't believe full out tanking works (works = championship contender), and has seen no model of success"

" no one on this roster is untouchable"

" our contract status will limit the way in which the roster can be improved".

What did I miss?


Thanks for listing the subjects SVG tackled. The one true thing he said is the one about the contract status and how that limits the team's ability to adjust the roster. So why would management want to take on another big problem by giving Pope $20 ml plus? Based on Pope's play he is not a max guy. Based on Drummond's play he is not a max guy. Based on Jackson's play, he is not worth $16m. Who got the team in this mess? Who failed to bench players on big contracts who gave poor effort for several games in a row? I just wish SVG would say he had been betrayed by his players who he backed for those big contracts. Maybe he has called Andre out a bit but I think SVG knows who he is dealing with in Andre Drummond. He must be delicate. Detroit got Isiah Thomas through the tanking route. That worked out pretty good. Maybe Detroit is not in position to tank because they cannot unload those big contracts.

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Re: FORUM

Post  cool breeze on Mon May 29, 2017 11:37 pm

deusXango wrote:I've read a number of Don's posts describing Drummond's highly flawed game and I must admit that no player can be that bad and still be coveted by teams in the NBA, and Gores won't have to pony up any money to complete a deal either. The fact is, Drummond isn't always engaged in games (only a few extraordinary superstars are consistently engaged), but that can/should be changed because when he is, he's a monster! I fault his disconnect on coaching, or lack thereof, more so than on talent, I.Q., and desire to win. What was his coaching about in college (when only a technicality allowed him to play for half a season), does anyone honestly remember? What was his rookie year like in Detroit? What was it like playing for another overrated, egotistical, coach? How stable was his sophomore season in Detroit playing with confusion, colliding personalities, and a supposedly mentor in another big man who never could play defense, nor did he want to play in Detroit period! The coach that was overseeing that mess, never took into account what he had in a raw, unschooled, talent like Drummond, and sincerely tried to build around him. What has SVG done? I mean really??!! A major part of his restoration plan, of a franchise that he never cared for, until Tom Gores took a ridiculous chance on by giving him COMPLETE control over the Pistons organization, was to dismantle everything that would allow Drummond to grow and the Pistons to flourish; Sheed Wallace was fired along with Arnie Kander, and the sh!ttyest coaching staff was brought in to support SVG. The results are, Drummond is beginning to play like Aaron Grey and the teams players are falling apart with lingering injuries. Was this 24 year old supposed to have learned the finer points of big man play in high school so that he could compete in the pros? Would Reggie Bullock have the nagging physical problems that he's been challenged with if Arnie was still here? In the final analysis, I'm not giving up on Drummond or the team, but I have given up on this coach/president, or is it president/coach?

Let's say for arguments sake that Drummond needs to go; who do we replace him with? Whiteside who Don loves to glorify for a tip-in that spared us the embarrassment of entering the playoffs? One of the Lopez brothers? Whoever we give up on Andre for, we'll be sorry, not for who we get so much, but what Drummond will go on to be under a concerned/talented coaches tutelage. I think we all know who we can replace Reggie with (providing he doesn't return to form), and that's a much cheaper stopgap measure. Anyone confused with who KCP can be replaced with (we've not seen any other SG run around like a chicken with it's head cut off for the last 4 years), try imagining any of the #12 picks this year as a suitable replacement; my personal favorites are either Justin Jackson or Luke Kennard. I think their basketball I.Q.'s are higher and they'll be more consistent scorers, but I KNOW, they won't be max contract players!

Don brought up a great point; let's trade Harris, and Johnson, and then throw in Ellenson to make this work; resign KCP, wait on Jackson to lead (that's the least compatible starting backcourt I can remember in a Detroit uniform), and go with Leuer and Morris being coached by SVG. Don't resign Bullock, because he's hurt too much. Let's give this one more chance.Cool

dX you surprise me. Somehow now your memory of how bad Andre Drummond played this season when it counted has been erased and all is good again. You assume that Drummond is in high demand and none of his value before last season started has been lost relating to what Detroit could get for him in a trade. And of course the coaching is the real problem not Andre himself. Finally is it wrong to bring up the key image many fans still have that symbolized Drummond's impact - the Whitesude tip in? I had recorded the game and played it back about 10 times and every time I watched it still couldn't believe my eyes that any starting big man would have ever found himself too far under the basket on an opposing shot attempt in the final few seconds of the game. Then to not know where his man was and what his man would be trying to do to help his team if the shot was missed. To give such a weak effort was truly incredible. And for Drummond's coach to give him a pass saying only that "Andre needs to be more engaged" tells a lot of us the fans wanted the team to be more successful than the coaches or the players. We cared more than Stan Van Gundy relating not to the team losing but how they lost. How can you be excited about the upcoming season next fall after watching an experienced $20 plus million dollar a year player go brain dead at the most import ant moment. Yest dX I will keep bringing it up. i just refuse to enter into La La land. I can still recall the past like many others.

I also challenge this idea that the player is innocent of all charges of being a lazy ass out of shape over weight player who plays defense with his arms down by his sides most of the time because it take less energy. The team needed a shot blocker, rim protector and paint protector. So your worry about what will we do if Drummond is moved is unfounded. We should celebrate such an event. Detroit frees up a huge amount of money. Management tries to find a player who they can develop into a strong defender to supply the most needed thing for the team. Drummond is not interested in providing that type of role. He wants more touches. Drummond gets meaningless rebounds by just standing in the paint. We need something much better to ever become a good team.

Then the myth that the reason why Andre Drummond flounders around at the same level he played or below that level is due to poor coaching. If only Rasheed could get ahold of Andre again. No Andre wants to choose the type of coach he wants. He rejected the shooting coach. He wouldn't want a guy like Ben Wallace or Kevin Garnett chewing his ass out day after day. The system used on offense by a head coach can impact the skill players. But defense is another matter. Defense is all about heart and hard work. And no coach can force a player to mentally prepare for games or play with high energy unless they use a form of punishment such as sending the player who fails his teammates by under performing mentally or physically to the bench. It appears to me that Andre would accept this type of punishment the opposite way that would be intended by the coach especially knowing about Andre's guaranteed contract. Andre can do whatever he choses and nobody can do squat to him.

The other thing that bothers me relating to coaching impact on NBA players and how fans and agents like to spin lies to take pressure away from the offending player is that fact that once the game begins, everything that happens involves the players. If you played in high school or college not counting the NBA you would agree that practice is practice and the real thing that happens once a real game starts is very different. I can't recall ever thinking about what my coach told me in practice once I am playing. You have to concentrate. The pressure is on and you are up against opposing players who want to kick your ass and make you look silly. You have to be able to react to situations on the court automatically and be in tune with your teammates. Once a timeout is called, you try hard to relax and get yourself ready for the meat grinder. The pace is so fast that you have to free your mind and be in the zone to be successful. The coach might scream and yell but you don't hear them. That is why when I became a high school coach, I tried to keep a positive vib going and not yell and throw out too much information. You might see something on the floor that could help individual players give out a play out of the timeout. The information is only good for that one play because all hell breaks loose when you are playing so hard and fast that you think that you might pass out. At the NBA level just use common sense to find the real truth. Think of Zeke coming into the Piston organization as a 20 year old kid playing for Stan Van Gundy who has been labeled now as a horrible coach because his players have played horribly. No Zeke would be the great Isiah Thomas regardless of who the coach might be. Or how about Tim Duncan? He was a big man who was perhaps the most fundamentally sound big man to enter the draft. How much coaching did he need? If the coach said I want you be to a rim protector, paint protector and shot blocker, how do you think things would have worked out if SVG had been his coach? He would have executed regardless of who his coach might be. Should I go down the list of really successful players in the NBA who played with heart, got themselves in the best possible physical and mental condition to execute successfully on the court. Then you have the Andre Drummond or Charlie V type players. They need coaches. They need Mother. They need to be pampered and spoiled. Yet the potential is there and the next time I take my dog on a walk maybe I will find several bars of gold. It is pure nonsense to expect anything new from Andre Drummond. I am not saying he can't change but the percentages are against him. Knowing that the best course of acton would be to attempt to trade him now if possible. While you might think he is highly sought after, I believe the opposite.is true. Management would love to trade him. His coaches would love to not have that big nightmare ignoring everything they tell him in practice. Who would want to coach Andre Drummond. Please tell me. GMs saw Andre fail to box out Whiteside. Before that if you watch the Pistons via Pass you would have heard opposing teams announcers point out the fact that Andre Drummond never boxes out his man. He seldom anticipates well while attempting to guard the paint. Sorry dX but GMs who you might think are foaming at the mouth over the possibliity of trading their key players for Andre are doing the opposite. They have crossed off Andre Drummond of their list of players they would want. GMS all want the Tim Duncan - Anthony Davis type of player. They have categories. Andre would be a guy they would take a chance on if he made $8 million a year. Are you kidding about some team wanting Drummond for $22 million and moving on up after next season? But you are correct hat for brief periods Drummond has played really hard and has been sort of a monster type player. But that has all be short lived lasting for only a few moments. I am ready for Boban and some young player out there who wants to play the right way.

You wrote this last post with the spirit that we would all like to have that success might just be around the corner. But what I saw were a lot of below average NBA players who didn't know what they were doing most of the time. They played hard until December and then went flat with much less effort. Good luck with that regardless of what coaching staff might be hired to coach the Pistons. Ball dominate point guards who cannot defend a retired WNBA player. Power forwards who cannot play defense any better than Andre Drummond. Baynes no longer on the team to provide some defensive stability after Drummond goes to the bench. Everything is not fine in Piston land. Blow it up now please. That is my wish. If you ever owned a vehicle that was a lemon did you ever worry about the car you would replace the lemon with? No you would be happy as hell.

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Re: FORUM

Post  deusXango on Mon May 29, 2017 6:01 pm

I've read a number of Don's posts describing Drummond's highly flawed game and I must admit that no player can be that bad and still be coveted by teams in the NBA, and Gores won't have to pony up any money to complete a deal either. The fact is, Drummond isn't always engaged in games (only a few extraordinary superstars are consistently engaged), but that can/should be changed because when he is, he's a monster! I fault his disconnect on coaching, or lack thereof, more so than on talent, I.Q., and desire to win. What was his coaching about in college (when only a technicality allowed him to play for half a season), does anyone honestly remember? What was his rookie year like in Detroit? What was it like playing for another overrated, egotistical, coach? How stable was his sophomore season in Detroit playing with confusion, colliding personalities, and a supposedly mentor in another big man who never could play defense, nor did he want to play in Detroit period! The coach that was overseeing that mess, never took into account what he had in a raw, unschooled, talent like Drummond, and sincerely tried to build around him. What has SVG done? I mean really??!! A major part of his restoration plan, of a franchise that he never cared for, until Tom Gores took a ridiculous chance on by giving him COMPLETE control over the Pistons organization, was to dismantle everything that would allow Drummond to grow and the Pistons to flourish; Sheed Wallace was fired along with Arnie Kander, and the sh!ttyest coaching staff was brought in to support SVG. The results are, Drummond is beginning to play like Aaron Grey and the teams players are falling apart with lingering injuries. Was this 24 year old supposed to have learned the finer points of big man play in high school so that he could compete in the pros? Would Reggie Bullock have the nagging physical problems that he's been challenged with if Arnie was still here? In the final analysis, I'm not giving up on Drummond or the team, but I have given up on this coach/president, or is it president/coach?

Let's say for arguments sake that Drummond needs to go; who do we replace him with? Whiteside who Don loves to glorify for a tip-in that spared us the embarrassment of entering the playoffs? One of the Lopez brothers? Whoever we give up on Andre for, we'll be sorry, not for who we get so much, but what Drummond will go on to be under a concerned/talented coaches tutelage. I think we all know who we can replace Reggie with (providing he doesn't return to form), and that's a much cheaper stopgap measure. Anyone confused with who KCP can be replaced with (we've not seen any other SG run around like a chicken with it's head cut off for the last 4 years), try imagining any of the #12 picks this year as a suitable replacement; my personal favorites are either Justin Jackson or Luke Kennard. I think their basketball I.Q.'s are higher and they'll be more consistent scorers, but I KNOW, they won't be max contract players!

Don brought up a great point; let's trade Harris, and Johnson, and then throw in Ellenson to make this work; resign KCP, wait on Jackson to lead (that's the least compatible starting backcourt I can remember in a Detroit uniform), and go with Leuer and Morris being coached by SVG. Don't resign Bullock, because he's hurt too much. Let's give this one more chance.Cool
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SVG on Radio Interview

Post  lemonpen on Mon May 29, 2017 4:15 pm

cool breeze wrote:Either this was just one of many spin games where smoke and mirrors are used to distort the facts or Stan Van Gundy did not pay attention to the details regarding his players performances. It looked as if SVG wasn't watching much as he would turn his back to the game action at times to rant to the guys on the bench. But he did stand up a lot and was animated. Who was he watching and what was he looking for as a coach? No Stan was at one time no dummy. He was a good assistant coach earlier in his career. It has to be the spin game being desperate that the new arena will be nearly empty again. He needs support from the fans. He needs people to buy season tickets. But after last season who will be the fool? Maybe after KCP signs his deal, he can get together with Andre and Reggie to buy thousands of season tickets and then give them away and get a tax write off. Will the kids turn up one time and then start turning down the tickets preferring to play ping pong for 3 hours instead. If they have no table then maybe the kids will go to the games.

The truth as to be what is the most plausible rational reality. No team wants Andre Drummond unless the Pistons throw in $10 mil a year until the contract is terminated. No team wants Reggie Jackson so this is the same situation. Finally, once Pope signs his insane deal which to all is a great business decision, then Pope will not be trade material either. Some day maybe at the end of next season, Stan will meet with Tom Gores with his head hanging down and will tell the owner the real truth about how other NBA teams think about our Piston stars. The owner might have to shell out $30 million a year just to move the 3 core players. But maybe the Pistons will get themselves up to the 8th pick in the draft again. Incredible planning goes into building a winning team in Detroit. As SVG says his team is solid at every position. Just a little tweaking is needed like maybe trading Harris and Johnson. Maybe if it is true that those two trouble makers got too nasty with Stan's 3 pet players in the team only meeting challenging the SVG designated team leaders, great things will happen. The Big Three will wake up and become completely different players. Both Andre and Reggie will be among the best defenders in the NBA. Pope will become a good ball handler and see the court better along with averaging 42% on his 3 point shots. Just get rid of the trouble makers Stan. You always tell the truth. Maybe Harris distracted Andre Drummond when Whiteside went up and tipped in the winning basket over Andre who didn't jump. Yes fans just don't know the whole story as Stan bravely told everyone on the radio.

Here I go slipping up again and showing how mean I am. Now I will be scolded by the Oracle once he reads this post. I will have to memorize the following information to get on the right program. Reggie Jackson is a superior player and that is why he earns superior money. Andre Drummond is a superior player and that is why he earns even  more money than Reggie. KCP is a superior player among all the starting guards in the NBA and that is why he will be making superior money too. How can we lose when we have three superior players. Stan better be careful. If he keeps spinning these stories Piston fans will start believing that poor coaching is the entire reason why Detroit was close to being the worst team in the NBA over the last half of last season. While other GMs who didn't make the playoffs are careful and conservative in the amount of hype they offer, Stan is confident in his players who showed very little interest in actually playing basketball last season.

What "specifically" didn't you like about what Stan said.

SVG quotes (to the best of my recollection)

" the most immediate and impactful change Dre can make is on defense"

" improved free throw shooting will be tough"

" in practice Dre plays the more physical offensive game we want to see, but his subconscience fear of free throw shooting causes him defer to a softer style in-game"

" the organization had no stomach for the long term loosing associated with full out tanking"

SVG " doesn't believe full out tanking works (works = championship contender), and has seen no model of success"

" no one on this roster is untouchable"

" our contract status will limit the way in which the roster can be improved".

What did I miss?

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