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Are we better off?

Post  Sparma on Mon Jul 10, 2017 7:24 pm

By saying that I think we're better off, I'm recapping a bunch of themes I've addressed in detail, which I'm not eager to debate with you again. Note that 2 weeks includes the summer league too. I feel much better about the team than I did prior to the draft. Prior, specifically, to the trade/ & renouncing KCP, I thought that, post KCP, we'd be locked in on a halfway decent team with very little chance for improvement other than internal development. One very specific, personal, addition to what I've written about in previous days: Murph has a more grim assessment of Morris than I do, but I didn't enjoy rooting for a guy as a key cog who sounds like he beat the *** out of someone, and may get away with it.

We've gone over that ground and more, except for that last issue.

Here's a part of the issue we haven't addressed directly, that I'd be happy to discuss/ debate with you: how will we know? Here, we enter the realm of counterfactuals. I can at least tell you how I'll know whether the team exceeds my expectations: I expected, at the end of the season, the team to win between 38-48 games for each of the 3-4 years. More subjectively, I expected that team to feature selfishness, divisiveness, and, yes, with Don, low basketball IQ. I expect this version of the team to be more energetic, more united, less selfish, along with better shooting. More exciting, more fun, in short.

What were your expectations before, Oracle? How will we know whether the team in its current configuration exceeded them?

Measuring what happens against prior expectations isn't, of course, the same as measuring what actually happens against what really would have happened. You can compare reality against consensus expectations, but that has its limits too. Sometimes there's quite a clear picture, as when Cleveland fell apart without LeBron, but I think there's a pretty tough question about counterfactuals concerning the Pistons.

Of
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Sparma

Post  Oracle on Mon Jul 10, 2017 4:05 pm

If I'm not mistaken, you've said this more than once.
Sparma wrote:I think we're better off as a team than 2 weeks ago, but I'm really curious about the details because they'll shed a lot of light, on how straight Stan's dealing is compared to his straight sounding talk, but also on whether Stan was pretty much forced to take dramatic action given pressures received from the KCP camp.
I know you and a few others feel that way, so there must be a reason.

I know Murph believes that moving Morris is addition by subtraction, but his honesty is refreshing, he simply hates Morris plain and simple for reasons he won't tolerate, which is fine.

But with the removal KCP, Morris & Baynes, I could see positioned better to do something else, but I don't see better.

Can you explain how you see it?

BTW: SVG and honesty is an oxymoron, he either lies or obfuscates just enough to have you believe the opposite of what he's really saying. GM's simply can't speak the truth at all times and never about contracts or they have no wiggle room, that's business and there's nothing wrong with it, the other party just needs to know the beast they're dealing with, which is supposed to be the agents job.

EDIT: I just thought of this, and here's where the problem lies with SVG. The GM needs that distance from the player, but the Coach needs to be an honest broker to keep and have everyone's trust, and it's damn near all about trust. If SVG loses that, he eventually loses the team. The youngsters don't know better, but the older players see right through this. Not saying it is a problem, just that it could be when the GM & Coach are the same person.
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SVG Honesty Issues?

Post  Sparma on Mon Jul 10, 2017 3:43 pm

I was looking for quotations earlier in the season that the Pistons would match no matter what. Gores said something very favorable that suggested as much, but in my cursory search I didn't find a we'll-match-no-matter-what quote. Do others remember such? Maybe Don has a point of agent-instigated media talk. On the other hand, the media often pass on front office leaks which are perfectly accurate.

SVG's comments from late March (cited by Vince Ellis in the freep) are worth citing:

"We only don’t have him next year if we decide we don’t want to have him,” Van Gundy said. “There’s no team out there that can decide they’re going to have KCP next year. They don’t get that decision. It’s on us."

From today's perspective that can be heard as a brutally honest assessment [circumstances may readily arise demonstrating that we don't want him that badly], even if it was taken at the time (as by me) as a we'll match anything commitment.

Let's say there's no doubt they made an 80/5 offer. (I'm guessing the final retelling by KCP and co wouldn't come out until after he signs somewhere.) Was it 80/5, take it or leave it? Or 80/5 is our initial offer and of course we intend to continue to negotiate with every hope of signing KCP. In that case, the agent could easily expect the team to bump its final offer to 2 mil more per year, to 90/5. That would have seemed like a deal all could live with (and isn't that the number Vince Ellis mentioned to get it done?).

I'd also like to know how the Galloway signing affected whatever KCP negotiations were going on.

I think we're better off as a team than 2 weeks ago, but I'm really curious about the details because they'll shed a lot of light, on how straight Stan's dealing is compared to his straight sounding talk, but also on whether Stan was pretty much forced to take dramatic action given pressures received from the KCP camp.
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Re: FORUM

Post  cool breeze on Mon Jul 10, 2017 3:16 pm

Oracle wrote:
Murph wrote:Don, I think SVG's starting line-ups are based on a combination of salary and seniority.  I'm not say that's right or wrong.  I'm just saying that SVG decides what he's willing to pay players, and then adjusts his starting line-ups accordingly.  I think he does this to reduce conflicts, although it's a little cowardly.

Stanley Johnson is really going to have to show something, anything this year, or we need to think about giving up on him.  IMO, his best bet to contribute to an NBA team is on the defensive end.  He should try to make himself into a rebounding, defensive, energy guy, like a poor man's Michael Kidd-Gilchrist.  SJ's offense is horrendous.
Don is the local comedy act these days, notice how he said neither fans nor the media should set lineups, but only training camp should, and then proceeded to set the lineup parameters himself.

I guess he meant training camp & Don  lol

Yes Stanley will have to show a LOT more than he has, but there isn't a player that has come here and shot as good as they have anywhere else, and the guys here shoot bad. Stanley's offense has gotten progressively worse under SVG.

I keep wondering as this keeps happening if there isn't something about SVG's offense. It's only worked once and I didn't like it even then, so could it be that he not only needs good 3 point shooters, but a particular type of 3 point shooter.

I don't know, but it puzzles me why this keeps happening.

Add to that the screwed up deals, and we could have been rolling with assets:
1. Josh Smith, paying millions for nothing
2. Monroe, lost for nothing, no trade or S&T
3. Ditto KCP

I guess in this town he isn't alone  lol

I am only guessing about lineups Oracle. Nobody will ever be as wise as you though as you point out often.

SVG has stated that he has gone though a process of self evaluation. Could that mean that he will be objective as a coach and not just pencil in players according to the amount of their contracts like Murph has observed from SVG in the past. Maybe he will change the offense. Maybe SVG will take action if highly paid players do not follow basic instructions. If Drummond comes into training camp over weight with an attitude then I hope he does the right thing and forces Drummond to change by working himself into basketball shape doing sprints after the games as he watches Moreland play from the bench. This is a far fetched wish of mine but SVG will need to so something drastic this time around because he cannot afford to be in charge of another dysfunctional team with bad team chemistry. SVG will need to define roles for each player and I am sure Johnson's role will be to be a hound dog on the defensive end at the small forward position. The coach doesn't need Johnson to launch 15 shots a game. What might happen with Johnson on offense could be something special and new for the offense with his ability to set screens, and penetrate and dish to players like Bradley who is a guy that can feed off a player like Johnson because he can get to the open spots. I am is excited and hopeful that this team will have an entirely different look. The one thing that still can screw up the works even with capable defenders like Bradley and Johnson is Andre Drummond and his lame attitude regarding the pick and roll plays. Calling switches when KCP or Smith had their man locked down forcing the guard to then attempt to roll with Andre's man into the paint. If SVG allowed this to happen and ignored those bogus decisions that Andre made.If this happens again and the coaching staff ignores Drummond's blunders because he is the highest paid player, then we need to keep pointing out what is happening so Tom Gores can actually get an understanding of how the Piston coaching staff has selective recall as to why our team loses. I imagine that Bradley will go straight to SVG if this kind of mindless activity persists. That is what leaders do and Bradley and Harris are our new leaders now. Jackson and Drummond need to get used to the fact that they are just players and must now conform to a new system. Dancing in the circle before games will get you nowhere this coming season. You must be prepared and accountable to the team. Eyes will be on the coaching staff to make sure the new leaders are supported where no slackers are tolerated. Slackers were tolerated last season by SVG and this can't happen again above all else. So I fully expect the coach will field a hard nosed defensive minded set of players. And I think that Luke Kennard will be in that group of rotation players. If neither Johnson or Kennard can cut it, the Pistons will suffer a lot of humiliation with Johnson going along with Drummond and Jackson. Then maybe we will get a high draft pick and hit gold. It is fun to dream in the off season and I like my dreams this summer far more than I did last summer.

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Good post Don...

Post  Oracle on Mon Jul 10, 2017 3:02 pm

I mostly agree, unless KCP's agent pulls a rabbit out of his arse, this was a bigger gamble than it needed to be. The Pistons are to blame as well because they tried hard to get him which delayed his entrance to the market as unrestricted, but that's just business, IMO.

But it's still worth it IMO, because the Pistons have a lot of fundamental issues and better coaching is the only way I see to address them. I think Baynes & KCP realized that while it could work here, it was going to be an uphill struggle. Here are some of the issues.

1. Reggie: Way too ball dominant, and it causes youth development issues and player engagement.
2. Drummond: Only defense stands in his way to being an all star again. It would be nice to hit FT's, but adding defense to his offense would make the team a lot better
3. Harris: He's a SF, but he's forced to play PF because that's the easiest position for him to guard. He's still poor, but at least SF's aren't blowing by him regularly.
4. SVG: I was so excited at first because I thought he would coach the talent, not try to fit square pegs into round holes. I also saw him take a promising rookie and beat him down to a confused young man(Stanley). He put young talent on the shelf for no other reason than they're young. His play calling out of a break is horrendous, and I've rarely seen halftime adjustments that meant a damn thing.

IMO, SVG is living on his "Getting to the Finals" rep, and the coaching mojo has worn off. I think Baynes more than anyone recognized the coaching difference, but there is some good news.

Avery Bradley is a better play maker than he gets credit for, but you can't make plays for a team of guys that can't move because your PG & center dominate the paint for 20 seconds of the clock and by design everybody is standing around. BTW, one other thing that is missed is that KCP has missed 14 games in his entire career, Bradley has missed 60. Not a determination of anything, just another data point.

Also, looking at this video, there is good, but you also see how small he is compared to most players.


Last edited by Oracle on Mon Jul 10, 2017 3:17 pm; edited 1 time in total
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One final comment on KCP as a Piston

Post  cool breeze on Mon Jul 10, 2017 2:25 pm

It is interesting but difficult to understand why Pope didn't accept the $80 million dollar offer over five years. KCP's agent is a expert at using the press to build up his client's value and condition NBA executives and fans to get on board early with the mantra planted that his clients should only settle for max contracts. KCP's agent banks on his mind conditioning skills to win over everyone early on so nobody uses logic and reason to come to a grounded fact based conclusion on the overall value of the player involved. Before the season started we were conditioned to this idea that Pope would be getting max offers very quickly once free agency time was here. Piston management kept responding to those planted questions to my surprise too. It might be better to just remain silent like Danny Ainge does. So Piston fans felt little worry that KCP would ever leave us because of all this dialog about matching any offer. Notice during streaks when Pope had off nights sometimes 3 or 4 games in a row during those groups of games where the Pistons were getting blown out there was no talk about Pope's contract. Then when he had a higher scoring game still in a losing cause where he did play great, the contract talk appeared again. Towards the end of the season where everyone knew that this team has a lot of dead weight with Jackson and Drummond's contracts and little to no financial flexibility we got another full blast by the media on all those teams that were smelling blood and lining up to sign our man. At the same time, many of us were calling for Piston management to blow up this dysfunctional piece of crap called the Detroit Pistons. Never have I seen a Piston team with worse team chemistry. It appeared that the coaching staff was in shock because they disappeared and never stepped in to discipline the players who were not giving an honest effort until the very end when Jackson was finally told to not dress for the remaining few games because of injury. SVG is known for being a hard nosed coach but he was reluctant to take action such as benching Andre Drummond at the same time Jackson became a spectator. I wonder if Baynes might not have signed with Detroit if that had happened.

What if none of the teams mentioned as players in the KCP sweepstakes had him as their first option? What if that entire story line was something created by Pope's agent. What a smart thing to do if that is the case. Now some Piston fans are grieving and saying things like Pope was our best player. Funny but I thought all along that Harris was our best player last season even after SVG had him coming off the bench. Will KCP sign a new contract for more than $80 Million? Crazy things are happening so maybe Pope will get lucky. That sure was some gamble though because that is a ton of money to pass up and it isn't easy to change where you live and adapt to an entirely new team. That will bring stress that Pope wouldn't have had if he had taken the money. I kept comparing Pope's skill set with Bradley's and noticed that Danny Ainge was not making any comment on giving Bradley max money after his outstanding playoff performances. The more I compared the two players the more envious I became of the Celtics because I thought Ainge would not break up the combination of Thomas and Bradley who played with fantastic chemistry together. Bradley will need to form a new bond with some of our young studs now and there is no doubt that he will. So it is time to say farewell to KCP and good luck to you. Damn that was a lot of money to pass up though. Certain guaranteed $80 million cold cash and he turned it down maybe because he saw Piston management cave in and give his former teammate Andre Drummond his insane contract and KCP sure knew that he was far superior in every way to our big over weight center. SVG just came to his senses after a brief period of insanity and ignored the hype and waited it out like a true professional front office leader. Great job SVG! Go Pistons!

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Murph

Post  Oracle on Mon Jul 10, 2017 1:53 pm

Murph wrote:Don, I think SVG's starting line-ups are based on a combination of salary and seniority.  I'm not say that's right or wrong.  I'm just saying that SVG decides what he's willing to pay players, and then adjusts his starting line-ups accordingly.  I think he does this to reduce conflicts, although it's a little cowardly.

Stanley Johnson is really going to have to show something, anything this year, or we need to think about giving up on him.  IMO, his best bet to contribute to an NBA team is on the defensive end.  He should try to make himself into a rebounding, defensive, energy guy, like a poor man's Michael Kidd-Gilchrist.  SJ's offense is horrendous.
Don is the local comedy act these days, notice how he said neither fans nor the media should set lineups, but only training camp should, and then proceeded to set the lineup parameters himself.

I guess he meant training camp & Don  lol

Yes Stanley will have to show a LOT more than he has, but there isn't a player that has come here and shot as good as they have anywhere else, and the guys here shoot bad. Stanley's offense has gotten progressively worse under SVG.

I keep wondering as this keeps happening if there isn't something about SVG's offense. It's only worked once and I didn't like it even then, so could it be that he not only needs good 3 point shooters, but a particular type of 3 point shooter.

I don't know, but it puzzles me why this keeps happening.

Add to that the screwed up deals, and we could have been rolling with assets:
1. Josh Smith, paying millions for nothing
2. Monroe, lost for nothing, no trade or S&T
3. Ditto KCP

I guess in this town he isn't alone  lol
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Although SVG's side is talking...

Post  Oracle on Mon Jul 10, 2017 1:47 pm

Sparma wrote:Didn't Monroe deny having receiving the offer from the Pistons that they claimed they made?  Maybe the disagreement has to do with the degree of formality, with one party expecting something more formal than the other delivers?

I'm going to be curious if a complaint of the sort eventually emerges here regarding KCP's 80/5 offer.  Could be all wrong about this with KCP.  Monroe not only denied receiving an offer, but particularly a high offer.  He denied both the Pistons' honesty and their purported generosity.  In KCP's case, he evidently doesn't see the offer as generous, so there's at least that difference.
But they aren't talking that much and KCP isn't talking at all, and I think that's wise for both parties.

We all know that SVG deals from the bottom of the deck, it's hard to avoid in his business, unfortunately it takes a contract or two for the players to stop believing the pretty words they use when they need you and the knife they use when they don't.

Fans ignore this for the most part, only expecting that we get the better part of the deal. Fans like us monitor things a lot closer for a variety of reasons, so like you, I want the final skinny at some point.
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Starting Line-ups

Post  Murph on Mon Jul 10, 2017 1:45 pm

Don, I think SVG's starting line-ups are based on a combination of salary and seniority. I'm not say that's right or wrong. I'm just saying that SVG decides what he's willing to pay players, and then adjusts his starting line-ups accordingly. I think he does this to reduce conflicts, although it's a little cowardly.

Stanley Johnson is really going to have to show something, anything this year, or we need to think about giving up on him. IMO, his best bet to contribute to an NBA team is on the defensive end. He should try to make himself into a rebounding, defensive, energy guy, like a poor man's Michael Kidd-Gilchrist. SJ's offense is horrendous.
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Real deal?

Post  Sparma on Mon Jul 10, 2017 1:40 pm

Didn't Monroe deny having receiving the offer from the Pistons that they claimed they made? Maybe the disagreement has to do with the degree of formality, with one party expecting something more formal than the other delivers?

I'm going to be curious if a complaint of the sort eventually emerges here regarding KCP's 80/5 offer. Could be all wrong about this with KCP. Monroe not only denied receiving an offer, but particularly a high offer. He denied both the Pistons' honesty and their purported generosity. In KCP's case, he evidently doesn't see the offer as generous, so there's at least that difference.
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Starting lineups should be determined by what happens in training camp not by sports writers opinions or the fans

Post  cool breeze on Mon Jul 10, 2017 1:21 pm

My best guess as to who will start and who will come off the bench is that it will depend on who the opposition is from game to game. That is the way Brad Stevens and several other NBA coaches have done it so maybe it is time for SVG to base lineups on opponent strengths and weaknesses. This will be a smarter team this season than we have seen for many years. The team still has some special needs type highly paid players on the roster that will be difficult to hide on defense. Even though Johnson has struggled in SVG's dysfunctional offense featuring Jackson and Drummond too much, I suspect our head coach will adjust his strategy to play to the team's new strengths. This team will have a much higher basketball IQ if Johnson, Harris, Bradley, Kennard, Galloway, Smith, Leuer and Moreland can win most of the minutes.

Moreland wins minutes: I mention Moreland here because he showed quick recognition ability on defense and when he received the basketball Moreland found open shooters instead of throwing up a wild shot attempt. Moreland runs the floor well so that could be refreshing to actually see a center beat his assigned man back on defense. even Baynes had some trouble in that regard last season. He also showed some shot blocking skills.

Combination of Johnson and Bradley on defense could put fear into the hearts of opponents. I expect that SVG will pencil in Johnson for big minutes with Bradley to compensate for whoever plays the point guard position unless Galloway kicks ass and takes names in training camp. With Galloway winning big minutes over Jackson and Smith Detroit has three quick hard nosed defensive aces to put up against the rest of the league. Johnson will have to come into training camp in the best shape in his entire life. Remember Mr. Intangible Michael Curry? I thought that Curry was past his prime when he started for the Pistons but his basketball IQ and defensive ability got him in the starting lineup much to my dismay when Prince was sitting on the bench. But the theory that some coaches still have that a defensive ace playing the 3 and being the 5th option is not a bad thing knowing how many tier one players occupy small forward positions throughout the league. Our 3 man instead could be known as a guy who is capable of limiting scoring options for opponent star players while on the offensive end be a guy who sets hard screens in the half court offense to help create more movement for shooters. This team will have two or three good outside shooters depending on if Jackson is up to par. If not then either Galloway or Smith might surprise opponents with their ability to shoot it. Harris and Bradley have the ability to create their own shots and can penetrate off the dribble well. Harris does have a big advantage on offense playing power forward because of his quickness, mid range game and driving ability. Now if he can hit some bit 3 pointers too defenses will have a lot more trouble defending the Pistons than they have had in the recent past. But the big change will be the Piston defense with Johnson and Bradley and even more so if the dark horse Galloway can have a great training camp. He has a great motor, size, smarts on defense and way more positives than the players who now are suspected to be the number one and two men at point guard. If jackson is only average SVG might play him just to trade him by the deadline.

I think fans will be surprised at how tough Bradley really is and I suspect he will get the most out of both Johnson and Kennard making them much better players by April. Harris will also benefit from playing with Bradley because last season defenses could concentrate on Harris more than they will with Bradley being the prime weapon. And I do not buy this nonsense that Bradley has hit his upside limit while Pope has a lot of growth ahead. Bradley is light years ahead of Pope with his defensive ability and his recent upsurge in offensive ability. He was amazing in the playoffs so I suspect he will be even better this coming season given another summer to improve. He does use the summer to work on his weaknesses unlike some of our current and former Piston players. For instance, I can't believe that Reggie Jackson has not dedicated himself to becoming an outstanding defender. He is quick, has those long arms and is not a dummy. Reggie just has not worked on defense over all those summers he has had since he entered the NBA. I think that SVG will demand more from him this year or he will be history.

If Ellenson does not get a lot better on the defensive end by the end of training camp he might be sitting on the bench a lot again this season. He didn't look to be in top notch shape in the summer league games. For sure Ellenson plays hard and practices a lot so his time will come if not this season. But he has to learn what it takes conditioning wise to move his feet faster and anticipate on defense. When you are in top condition, you think better than the average player who is dragging his feet like Andre Drummond does most of the time. Could Ellenson play some center in certain matchups in the future? Just get a little bit stronger Henry and you can be the guy who spreads the floor at the center position.

We have some superior athletes on this team and players will high basketball IQs. I am excited now. This is a building year but things are really looking up and this team will be fun to watch. If Andre Drummond decides that he really cares about the Pistons and his teammates, he can be a big player in the team's future success. If he comes in goofing around in training camp with no plan to become a better rim protector and defender, then SVG will have to move him quickly before he attempts to ruin the team chemistry. Everyone will be watching him closely including SVG. No more passes for either Jackson or Drummond. No more childishness should be tolerated from either player. This is the season where they can become real basketball players and real men. I just don't see how Boban fits in with this young team but surprise me. I think we might see a lot of Moreland if SVG doesn't make another move.

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Rotation

Post  Murph on Mon Jul 10, 2017 11:11 am

Jackson, Bradley/Smith/ Galloway
Bradley, Kenard
Harris, Johnson
Lauer/Ellenson, Ellenson/Lauer
Drummond, Boban
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Hmmmm....

Post  Murph on Mon Jul 10, 2017 7:51 am

So please tell me that SVG doesn't intend to build around a 6'2 starting SG.  The only hope is Van Gundy can convert Bradley to a PG.  But he only has one year to do it.

As inconsistent as KCP was, his defense was very solid.  SVG clearly did not want to pay up for Caldwell-Pope.

I'm guessing the longer term plan is to let Bradley walk and start Luke Kenard at SG in two years.


Dumping Marcus Morris was addition by subtraction.  The improvement in team chemistry and the fact that Tobias Harris will now have to start, far out-weights the loss of a surly, under-sized, accused felon, who took up a spot the starting line-up and was a problem everywhere he went.

Good riddance to Morris.  (Although I'll have to change my avatar now.)


When are the Pistons going to dump SVG?
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Ballin & Phillip

Post  Oracle on Mon Jul 10, 2017 5:45 am

BallinD wrote:
Oracle wrote:
BallinD wrote:Baynes and Morris gonna make Boston a lot tougher, along with Hayward, they are now a stronger team.

@Oracle.  Still think Pistons lowballed KCP, seeing what others are getting: Baynes, Waiters, Hardaway Jr.  I think he played himself.
Boston: I agree, they make Boston a LOT tougher! At least now they're in the conversation for beating Cleveland, but Cavs still have the advantage, especially if they can get home court this time.

KCP:
1: The Pistons low balled KCP by definition because they knew the real number and decided what they wanted to pay. I separate that from what's fair. ].I'm not sure what you mean here.  By definition of low-balled? what is your definition and you know you can't use a term to define a term, right?  Real Number?  What is that real number.  Do you know it?  If it is a negotiation, a "real number" is revealed as the talks unfold. Fair enough, it is a negotiation. We can't know everything, but it appears that KCP's number was north of 20M, nobody here knows what he would have settled for, but we know 16M was so low that it got rejected, which is why I said low ball. So while we don't know the "Real" number, which is a fair statement, we do know it was too low. So your larger point is valid and I concede, low balled is likely NOT the correct term to describe what happened.

2: I've said in several posts that I thought the offer was fair. I even feel that 16M was still a bit of an over pay, but fair enough for this poster.

Lastly, we don't need to be guessing if he played himself, that's a premature speculation. We'll know soon enough, but if you think it's all on KCP, you misjudge the player agent relationship. Good point,
but I never said it was all on him, however he has a role to play in this debacle.  Jus Sayin. The agent works for him.  He could see that he's asking for a lot more than others with comparable or better numbers and skills. 
Which is what I said below, but it's only a debacle if it doesn't work remember.

My guess if things don't work out is that his agent partially blew it for him. I say partially because KCP doesn't have to take his advice, but we'll see.

Four teams are in the running to make a move on KCP, the Lakers, the Nets, Atlanta, and the outside chance of Philly. I don't see him doing much better than 16M, but IMO, that shouldn't be the point for him now.

KCP needs to look for fit, he never fit well here, and if Reggie is the PG, this is a bad location for him.

IMO, find the best fit and screw the money, it will come later.
Best fit?  You keep saying fit, but I wonder, where does a 40% shooting guard who shoots well below the league average in every category "best fit?" Phillip/Ballin: Nowhere as far as you guys are concerned, nothing I say will alter how you feel, so I'm content to watch the process play out.
The illusion works really well Phillip! There are two or more grand illusions that happen in basketball that effect how you see players.

1. Players on winning teams appear better and smarter. It's not all illusion, but they do appear to be better, and likely are, but can be made back into turds on a losing team.

2. Playing in a good system that maximizes most of their talents. Carlisle did that for us. He figured out how to meet the players at the intersection of what he needed and their ability to deliver on those needs.

I can't wait to see Morris & Baynes in that Boston system, should be interesting.

BTW, smart move by Baynes! With his limited talent, he needs a good system to get that next pay check. He may get it in Boston or elsewhere, in fact that's how he got SVG to pay him more than he had ever saw before... the illusion works!
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Um, Ok?

Post  BallinD on Mon Jul 10, 2017 1:18 am

Oracle wrote:
BallinD wrote:Baynes and Morris gonna make Boston a lot tougher, along with Hayward, they are now a stronger team.

@Oracle.  Still think Pistons lowballed KCP, seeing what others are getting: Baynes, Waiters, Hardaway Jr.  I think he played himself.
Boston: I agree, they make Boston a LOT tougher! At least now they're in the conversation for beating Cleveland, but Cavs still have the advantage, especially if they can get home court this time.

KCP:
1: The Pistons low balled KCP by definition because they knew the real number and decided what they wanted to pay. I separate that from what's fair. ].I'm not sure what you mean here.  By definition of low-balled? what is your definition and you know you can't use a term to define a term, right?  Real Number?  What is that real number.  Do you know it?  If it is a negotiation, a "real number" is revealed as the talks unfold.

2: I've said in several posts that I thought the offer was fair. I even feel that 16M was still a bit of an over pay, but fair enough for this poster.

Lastly, we don't need to be guessing if he played himself, that's a premature speculation. We'll know soon enough, but if you think it's all on KCP, you misjudge the player agent relationship. Good point,
but I never said it was all on him, however he has a role to play in this debacle.  Jus Sayin. The agent works for him.  He could see that he's asking for a lot more than others with comparable or better numbers and skills.


My guess if things don't work out is that his agent partially blew it for him. I say partially because KCP doesn't have to take his advice, but we'll see.

Four teams are in the running to make a move on KCP, the Lakers, the Nets, Atlanta, and the outside chance of Philly. I don't see him doing much better than 16M, but IMO, that shouldn't be the point for him now.

KCP needs to look for fit, he never fit well here, and if Reggie is the PG, this is a bad location for him.

IMO, find the best fit and screw the money, it will come later.
Best fit?  You keep saying fit, but I wonder, where does a 40% shooting guard who shoots well below the league average in every category "best fit?"
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Pope the Joke!

Post  Phil1980boy on Mon Jul 10, 2017 12:37 am

"Phillip: That is the worst and most inaccurate analogy I've ever seen on this forum. You need a logic tune-up after that debacle 

As long as you enjoyed the Post. lol

But in all seriousness, POPE IS BORDER-LINE-AVERAGE. A lot of nights Pope is pure TRASH! If you really want to know the truth, I'm not sure Pope is A starting 2-Guard in the NBA. That's how low I rank KCP's game.

Stan just made maybe his top move since he been in Detroit by not giving this guy max money.

And let me tell you this if I'm Pope's agent it's no way in hell I allow Pope to sign A 1 year contract. I don't care if it's A 1 year MAX. Pope performance will lose him money GUARANTEED. He not that good to live up to that kind of money.

Also to A.Baynes and his agent A big fat.... lol lol You just took 2 million less to play A lesser role in A city where the TAXES are some of the highest in the ENTIRE COUNTRY. The cost of living is WAY..WAY..WAY.. MORE EXPENSIVE! The weather is just about the same, you will never finish games because Al Hartford can shoot free-throws and the media will burst your ball 10 times more. lol lol

Credit to Greg Monroe's agent. His role is s.h.i.t.t.y but that 16 Million is not! Good decision to opt into that final year because Monroe will never see 16 million for 1 season ever again.

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I keep saying the same thing...

Post  Oracle on Mon Jul 10, 2017 12:10 am

BallinD wrote:Baynes and Morris gonna make Boston a lot tougher, along with Hayward, they are now a stronger team.

@Oracle.  Still think Pistons lowballed KCP, seeing what others are getting: Baynes, Waiters, Hardaway Jr.  I think he played himself.
Boston: I agree, they make Boston a LOT tougher! At least now they're in the conversation for beating Cleveland, but Cavs still have the advantage, especially if they can get home court this time.

KCP:
1: The Pistons low balled KCP by definition because they knew the real number and decided what they wanted to pay. I separate that from what's fair.

2: I've said in several posts that I thought the offer was fair. I even feel that 16M was still a bit of an over pay, but fair enough for this poster.

Lastly, we don't need to be guessing if he played himself, that's a premature speculation. We'll know soon enough, but if you think it's all on KCP, you misjudge the player agent relationship.

My guess if things don't work out is that his agent partially blew it for him. I say partially because KCP doesn't have to take his advice, but we'll see.

Four teams are in the running to make a move on KCP, the Lakers, the Nets, Atlanta, and the outside chance of Philly. I don't see him doing much better than 16M, but IMO, that shouldn't be the point for him now.

KCP needs to look for fit, he never fit well here, and if Reggie is the PG, this is a bad location for him.

IMO, find the best fit and screw the money, it will come later.
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Baynes et al.

Post  BallinD on Sun Jul 09, 2017 10:07 pm

Baynes and Morris gonna make Boston a lot tougher, along with Hayward, they are now a stronger team.

@Oracle. Still think Pistons lowballed KCP, seeing what others are getting: Baynes, Waiters, Hardaway Jr. I think he played himself.
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Baynes joins Morris & the Celtics... FOR LESS MONEY!!!

Post  Oracle on Sun Jul 09, 2017 7:58 pm

The Celtics are going in the exact opposite direction as we are!

They just got even bigger picking up Baynes for 4.3M... yeah you read that right, 4.3M vs the 6.5M we were going to pay.
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Stuff...

Post  Oracle on Sun Jul 09, 2017 7:51 pm

Don & Sparma:
Sparma wrote:Thanks Don!

Evidently with you, I believe it's a "fact" that the negativity/ vulgarity of Stan's comment is unusual for an NBA coach following a player's only meeting. Coaches would, I think, ordinarily be more supportive, or at least neutral.
Totally agree, I was shocked at his response to what I thought was a huge positive for a young team(something he was asking for), but he viewed it as totally negative. Does that mean Reggie has his full support?

Ballin: I wanna too, that's a very good list. As I stated before, I hope SVG doesn't fall back into his old ways of chasing wins at all costs, even over player development. I hope he learns what other good coaches already know, yo may sacrifice a little, but the development of players pays bigger dividends later in the season.

Don & Ballin: I'm really happy to see you guys step up and support Pierre Jackson to be one of our two-way players, his performance deserves some recognition.

Phillip: That is the worst and most inaccurate analogy I've ever seen on this forum. You need a logic tuneup after that debacle  lol
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I Wanna

Post  BallinD on Sun Jul 09, 2017 7:15 pm

I wanna see Moreland dunking on Big Dre’s head all through training camp to maybe help wake him up, arouse the beast.,,but unlikely, since he didn’t seem to mind when those drew league boys dunked on his head, LOL, what a loser.  Wish he cared, but five years in, the evidence sez “No.” facepalm

I wanna see Kid Luke elbow his way into the nine man rotation, along with Ellensen.  RJ, AB, AD, TH, JL, IS, SJ, LG, LK, HE.  Shocked

I wanna see Weggie traded by the deadline unless he dazzles and passes his azz off in pre-season.  Can we package him with that second round pick we just snared and get a real PG in here, hehe

I don’t wanna see SVG coaching the new iteration of the Pistons, but I won’t look away and I will hope he can change his evil ways and enter the era of the modern NBA. dance

I wanna see Pierre Jackson sign on as one of our two-way guys and get a few minutes in games. guitar


Last edited by BallinD on Sun Jul 09, 2017 7:21 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : PS)
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Pope the Joke!

Post  Phil1980boy on Sun Jul 09, 2017 6:05 pm

You generally don't make offers to players you don't want, they might accept it, so it's safe to say SVG's first choice was KCP.

Oracle. I have A old PS3 for sale. It's in decent condition and I have some good games and movies saved on it. I'm sure you don't really have any need for it but at the right price you would make A offer right? But only at the right PRICE!!! Think of KCP in the same manner. So what If I said I want 500$ for my PS3? OVER PRICED, MAX-Value!
Think of KCP in that same manner.

Pope is like A old azz PS3. It's serviceable but officially not good enough for what you need today. THAT 4K S.H.I.T But POPE want 4K money!!
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Stan's reaction

Post  Sparma on Sun Jul 09, 2017 1:15 pm

Thanks Don!

Evidently with you, I believe it's a "fact" that the negativity/ vulgarity of Stan's comment is unusual for an NBA coach following a player's only meeting. Coaches would, I think, ordinarily be more supportive, or at least neutral.

Given that fact, what we can infer? That something unusual/ unsettling happened at the meeting. I find your account plausible, Cool, that Drummond spoke out of turn in public, covering for his buddy Reg, who had come under widespread attack [presumably for ball hogging, putting up low % shots, then not working hard on D]. More generally, I think Stan faced a team divided after the meeting. His first instinct was to try to put a lid on the trouble, hoping to go back to the order of the previous season. Didn't happen. He gradually came around on Reggie. I'm surprised Stan didn't lose more standing with the team after his reaction than he apparently did. Now, the two organizers of the protest are gone, along with a player who likely was on the wrong side from Stan's early perspective too.

If that's an appropriate inference, it becomes likely that there's likely a measure of self interest in Stan's actions in recent weeks.

Still, I'm hopeful, with Stan, that Avery contributes to the healing. I think he will. If not, I'd predict that Reggie will be the next to go, whatever the return at that point.

cool breeze wrote:
Sparma wrote:Oracle's comment about KCP and Morris being the heart and soul of the team, set me to thinking about that issue.  Setting aside, the discussion of what "facts" may be, I wondered who might be that heart and soul, if not KCP and Morris.  Are there other viable candidates?

Can we agree that Drummond and Jackson were the heart and soul in 2015-'16?  There are a host of considerations, but I'm going to skip over those now.

Once the team flourished early in 2016 without Reggie there was a heated debate, to which SVG reacted dismissively.  Could that debate be seen as one over the soul of the team?  More prosaically, there was strong disagreement about style of play, defensive accountability, and distribution of opportunities.  

Who were the leaders of the revolt against the Reggie/ AD axis?  Well, Baynes called the meeting, along with Morris.  No wonder SVG reacted so hostilely: the divided soul of the team had come to light, and he could only offer band aids in response.

What about KCP?  Here, I become super speculative, but we seem to agree that he plays better with Reggie.  Baynes likely was too marginal to be at the heart of hearts of the team, but he played a part.

So who made up the heart and soul of the team?  Not one person, or even two.  Instead two parties made up the soul, battling for supremacy.  (btw, Harris made some impressive leadership comments earlier this summer while AD made a dud remark, cited by Don more than once.)

If my analysis/ dramatic rendition's at all on track, maybe it's not a total coincidence that Baynes and Morris are gone?  And we can see part of the hope Stan has in the trade and release of KCP?  To my mind, Bradley emerges as the new soul of the franchise (read an interesting piece about him emerging as leader in Boston last year, along with Horford).  His qualities (defense, shooting, grittiness), Stan may well think, supplement AD and Reggie nicely, without supplanting them.  But he also seems like a good fit with the rebels.  Is a healing afoot?  Might that be part of Stan's plan?

Sparma I really appreciate your thoughts here. I still cannot figure out why SVG made any comments about this players only meeting. It doesn't make sense to me because during periods when a team has real struggles especially with the amount of regular season games that are played where it is inevitable for every team to have those moments I can't recall any situation in the past from my experience where a head coach has said anything other than tell the press that he appreciated his players calling a meeting to work out issues only players can sort out privately. I think Stan responded with negative comments to protect Andre Drummond who broke the sacred trust of the PRIVATE PLAYERS ONLY get together. I have never heard of a player spouting off after such a meeting telling anyone who will listen what went on and why Andre didn't like the tone of the meeting. Maybe SVG was in shock and thought he had to say something and that was a huge mistake on his part. SVG thought the meeting made things worse rather than better. And how could things get better if Andre Drummond acted like a small child instead of a man and had to vent about those mean teammates of his who picked on his buddy. Being objective I would like Piston fans to place themselves in the bodies of the all the players and feel what they must have felt. It is Reggie and Andre together forever. Remember how they would put their arms around each other when the team was rolling well in the previous season? I thought that was out of line myself. Where Brad Stevens helps to create good chemistry by making sure all of his players believe that every individual on the team is important and needs to be respected and enforces this model by making sure that everyone of his players gets on the court and plays effective minutes maybe not every game but he makes sure no clicks form. Andre and Reggie formed a click and somehow SVG encouraged this maybe thinking that Andre might play harder if he thinks that he is the big cheese. Meanwhile KCP plays along and causes no waves because the supreme ruler, Reggie Jackson, has the bad habit of making conscious decisions on who he will pass the basketball to in the half court offense. If you are wide open on a break and the fans are watching, Reggie will pass the basketball to the open man. But in the half court Reggie Jackson has a long history of selecting certain approved players he will give the time of day to. KCP would help Reggie and bail him out on defense. So at times Reggie will return the favor and pass the basketball to Pope. If you don't submit to making Reggie THE MAN, then you might be out of luck and your career will suffer because he will take you out of the offense. I have witnessed Reggie looking directly at Morris and Johnson when they have no defender within 6 yards and they are waving their arms trying to get Reggie to look at them. Believe me he could see that the pass should have gone to them but instead Reggie would go up against two defenders or make a low percentage pass to Andre instead. Intentional failure to pass the basketball to the open man on set plays that the team practices that creates movement within the offense is what that meeting was all about.

Have you ever had to work for a bad boss? Someone comes in to run your office who doesn't have a clue and also is power hungry. you and your work teammates do have professional knowledge that the boss lacks and you or one of your fellow associates confront the boss when he or she makes some bogus decision on your work process. You do it for the sake of the organization or in health care for the good of the patients. You can be a doctor or nurse say in the health profession and inept administrator arrives to make your life hell. If you stand up in a meeting and give the reasons why the bogus decision will screw up the works, there is always some suck up fringe employee who will try to cut your throat out and side with the administrator. Believe me this is now the norm in the current hospital setting with all the hospital mergers. Switching back to the Pistons players only meeting, I see the aftermath of the meeting at the breaking point of this past season. A lot of players felt like they were really not part of the team and could feel the absence of the emotional ingredient that any teams needs to be successful relating to positive team chemistry. In my opinion there were only two players who were causing the dysfunction and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out who those two players were. The players with the exception of Reggie and Andre wanted change. They were not happy with how Andre and Reggie played lackluster defense. And they didn't like the ball dominate point guard to play hero ball and to only throw the basketball to selected pets. Andre was upset. He loved all the attention he got from Reggie. Being so immature he does the unthinkable and shares his experience in the team meeting. Then the administrator, SVG, comes to his aid instead of recognizing what he had created and put a stop to it. SVG got a lot of milage with this click Reggie and Andre created in the previous season and thought he could get a little bit more out of it perhaps but he should have told Andre to keep his trap shut and not make things worse.

Now enter Avery Bradley. He has been blessed with playing in a great environment at Boston managed by a very smart head coach who would never allow anything like the Reggie-Andre love fest to ever take place. It is going to be really interesting to watch what happens this fall. I would like to be a fly on the wall for sure. Could there be more than Reggie's knee problem that caused him to sideline himself for the last part of the season? Players were fed up with his leadership. It much was clear. Drummond tanked when Reggie's good fortune ended. The most puzzling thing to me now is how SVG would ever bring back both Reggie and Andre after what happened. Players do not trust Reggie Jackson who experienced what happened in the past. Will Reggie transform himself into something new? He was much like his old self when he played for Oklahoma and that is why the core players wanted him out and don't respect him to this day. SVG has his hands full this coming season. New leadership has to be his priority. Avery Bradley will lead by example. He is a great teammate who gives more of himself than any of the hold over players who had to experience the leadership of Andre and Reggie. Reggie and Andre will need to blend in to this new era or there will be big trouble.
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Re: FORUM

Post  cool breeze on Sun Jul 09, 2017 11:18 am

Sparma wrote:Oracle's comment about KCP and Morris being the heart and soul of the team, set me to thinking about that issue.  Setting aside, the discussion of what "facts" may be, I wondered who might be that heart and soul, if not KCP and Morris.  Are there other viable candidates?

Can we agree that Drummond and Jackson were the heart and soul in 2015-'16?  There are a host of considerations, but I'm going to skip over those now.

Once the team flourished early in 2016 without Reggie there was a heated debate, to which SVG reacted dismissively.  Could that debate be seen as one over the soul of the team?  More prosaically, there was strong disagreement about style of play, defensive accountability, and distribution of opportunities.  

Who were the leaders of the revolt against the Reggie/ AD axis?  Well, Baynes called the meeting, along with Morris.  No wonder SVG reacted so hostilely: the divided soul of the team had come to light, and he could only offer band aids in response.

What about KCP?  Here, I become super speculative, but we seem to agree that he plays better with Reggie.  Baynes likely was too marginal to be at the heart of hearts of the team, but he played a part.

So who made up the heart and soul of the team?  Not one person, or even two.  Instead two parties made up the soul, battling for supremacy.  (btw, Harris made some impressive leadership comments earlier this summer while AD made a dud remark, cited by Don more than once.)

If my analysis/ dramatic rendition's at all on track, maybe it's not a total coincidence that Baynes and Morris are gone?  And we can see part of the hope Stan has in the trade and release of KCP?  To my mind, Bradley emerges as the new soul of the franchise (read an interesting piece about him emerging as leader in Boston last year, along with Horford).  His qualities (defense, shooting, grittiness), Stan may well think, supplement AD and Reggie nicely, without supplanting them.  But he also seems like a good fit with the rebels.  Is a healing afoot?  Might that be part of Stan's plan?

Sparma I really appreciate your thoughts here. I still cannot figure out why SVG made any comments about this players only meeting. It doesn't make sense to me because during periods when a team has real struggles especially with the amount of regular season games that are played where it is inevitable for every team to have those moments I can't recall any situation in the past from my experience where a head coach has said anything other than tell the press that he appreciated his players calling a meeting to work out issues only players can sort out privately. I think Stan responded with negative comments to protect Andre Drummond who broke the sacred trust of the PRIVATE PLAYERS ONLY get together. I have never heard of a player spouting off after such a meeting telling anyone who will listen what went on and why Andre didn't like the tone of the meeting. Maybe SVG was in shock and thought he had to say something and that was a huge mistake on his part. SVG thought the meeting made things worse rather than better. And how could things get better if Andre Drummond acted like a small child instead of a man and had to vent about those mean teammates of his who picked on his buddy. Being objective I would like Piston fans to place themselves in the bodies of the all the players and feel what they must have felt. It is Reggie and Andre together forever. Remember how they would put their arms around each other when the team was rolling well in the previous season? I thought that was out of line myself. Where Brad Stevens helps to create good chemistry by making sure all of his players believe that every individual on the team is important and needs to be respected and enforces this model by making sure that everyone of his players gets on the court and plays effective minutes maybe not every game but he makes sure no clicks form. Andre and Reggie formed a click and somehow SVG encouraged this maybe thinking that Andre might play harder if he thinks that he is the big cheese. Meanwhile KCP plays along and causes no waves because the supreme ruler, Reggie Jackson, has the bad habit of making conscious decisions on who he will pass the basketball to in the half court offense. If you are wide open on a break and the fans are watching, Reggie will pass the basketball to the open man. But in the half court Reggie Jackson has a long history of selecting certain approved players he will give the time of day to. KCP would help Reggie and bail him out on defense. So at times Reggie will return the favor and pass the basketball to Pope. If you don't submit to making Reggie THE MAN, then you might be out of luck and your career will suffer because he will take you out of the offense. I have witnessed Reggie looking directly at Morris and Johnson when they have no defender within 6 yards and they are waving their arms trying to get Reggie to look at them. Believe me he could see that the pass should have gone to them but instead Reggie would go up against two defenders or make a low percentage pass to Andre instead. Intentional failure to pass the basketball to the open man on set plays that the team practices that creates movement within the offense is what that meeting was all about.

Have you ever had to work for a bad boss? Someone comes in to run your office who doesn't have a clue and also is power hungry. you and your work teammates do have professional knowledge that the boss lacks and you or one of your fellow associates confront the boss when he or she makes some bogus decision on your work process. You do it for the sake of the organization or in health care for the good of the patients. You can be a doctor or nurse say in the health profession and inept administrator arrives to make your life hell. If you stand up in a meeting and give the reasons why the bogus decision will screw up the works, there is always some suck up fringe employee who will try to cut your throat out and side with the administrator. Believe me this is now the norm in the current hospital setting with all the hospital mergers. Switching back to the Pistons players only meeting, I see the aftermath of the meeting at the breaking point of this past season. A lot of players felt like they were really not part of the team and could feel the absence of the emotional ingredient that any teams needs to be successful relating to positive team chemistry. In my opinion there were only two players who were causing the dysfunction and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out who those two players were. The players with the exception of Reggie and Andre wanted change. They were not happy with how Andre and Reggie played lackluster defense. And they didn't like the ball dominate point guard to play hero ball and to only throw the basketball to selected pets. Andre was upset. He loved all the attention he got from Reggie. Being so immature he does the unthinkable and shares his experience in the team meeting. Then the administrator, SVG, comes to his aid instead of recognizing what he had created and put a stop to it. SVG got a lot of milage with this click Reggie and Andre created in the previous season and thought he could get a little bit more out of it perhaps but he should have told Andre to keep his trap shut and not make things worse.

Now enter Avery Bradley. He has been blessed with playing in a great environment at Boston managed by a very smart head coach who would never allow anything like the Reggie-Andre love fest to ever take place. It is going to be really interesting to watch what happens this fall. I would like to be a fly on the wall for sure. Could there be more than Reggie's knee problem that caused him to sideline himself for the last part of the season? Players were fed up with his leadership. It much was clear. Drummond tanked when Reggie's good fortune ended. The most puzzling thing to me now is how SVG would ever bring back both Reggie and Andre after what happened. Players do not trust Reggie Jackson who experienced what happened in the past. Will Reggie transform himself into something new? He was much like his old self when he played for Oklahoma and that is why the core players wanted him out and don't respect him to this day. SVG has his hands full this coming season. New leadership has to be his priority. Avery Bradley will lead by example. He is a great teammate who gives more of himself than any of the hold over players who had to experience the leadership of Andre and Reggie. Reggie and Andre will need to blend in to this new era or there will be big trouble.

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Early Projections In

Post  Sparma on Sun Jul 09, 2017 11:17 am

CBS has projections in for all NBA teams. For Detroit that includes consideration of the Bradley trade. One line has them just over 41 wins (41.4 (!?)) while another has them just below the 41 mark. It's looking like a .500 team to Vegas. I see them winning more than last year, but I'm going to hold off on a specific projection because I'm guessing the team will look different by the time the season arrives.

One point of interest: the line for Philly is really similar to that for the Pistons.
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