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FORUM - Page 16 Empty Leuer

Post  Murph Sun Jul 30, 2017 8:45 am

I'm not a big Jon Leuer fan, but I can't for the life of me figure out who should be starting at PF instead.  Henry Ellenson is only 20 years old, and only played in 19 games last year.  Maybe if he receives more playing time and develops, he will eventually step into the starting line-up this season, but I doubt if he's ready yet.  

Anthony Tolliver is a career journeyman and back-up.  I doubt if Tolliver's skill set has improved.  Eric Moreland is a refugee from the D-League.  And Tobias Harris is much better suited to be a 3, not a 4; Harris should be our starting SF for the foreseeable future.

Initially, I wanted the Pistons to sign a veteran, defensive PF, such as Serge Ibaka in the off season.  But the Pistons didn't even have enough money to re-sign KCP, let alone add a big contract like it would have taken to land Ibaka.

So until Ellenson is ready to start, we're left with Leuer by default. The good news is, once SVG finds a real starting PF, Leuer will be a very serviceable, if expensive, back-up.

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FORUM - Page 16 Empty SVG

Post  BallinD Sat Jul 29, 2017 10:37 pm

Sparma, I agree that SVG is Smart, Pragmatic, Employs Analytics, and may be a prisoner of his success.  Smart, but stubborn and slow to react to changing conditions, lack of creative fluidity to draw up good plays.

But he is driven.  Driven is good, but when it leads to the other side of the coin, which is yelling and shouting it seems the IQ is better than the EQ or emotional intelligence.

With low EQ, Stan will fit well with the also ran category, because it takes a certain calm in the storm mentality to weather an NBA season and playoff run.  His frenetic frenzy "Master of Panic" drive appears to mitigate what his smarts and drive produce in success.

An example of Smart, but Emotionally Unintelligent (Low EQ) was his handling of the player's only meeting, which he publicly ridiculed.  Equally low EQ was his shoving Reggie back into the lineup to kill a building chemistry and team that was beginning to gel (High EQ would have seen this clearly), which in turn led to the player's only meeting.  Shooting yourself in the foot, Stan.

Reggie's dribbling the air out of the ball? I really doubt SVG liked that. What he liked what having a reliable pick-and-roll the preceding season with Reggie and Dre as the axis, sufficiently dynamic to lead to great improvement and a spot in the playoffs. The other was an unfortunate accompanying characteristic that he was willing to put up with, because of the Reggie/ AD results in 2015-16, and also because he needed to walk on eggshells around those two. I don't see any great inconsistency, even if there some ineffectual coaching. He knows. Yes, he may know, but by walking on eggshells around those two, as you say, he is clearly picking favorites and again displaying low EQ.  That is the true inconsistency.

Perhaps with the grating style and barging himself into a team chemistry issue, and clearly playing favorites, it was inevitable the team would not rally, but slump as the season reached its closing month.  None of his favorites balled out for old SVG.  Nope, the only player who showed any outstanding effort was Boban, poor Boban who SVG refused to play most of the season.

It seemed he lost the team down the stretch, though they played the string out.  Tobias Harris said the issue was "chemistry." which is definitely affected by low EQ behaviors.  I agree he is a better GM than coach, as most of your complementary statements are in the realm of GM activities.
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FORUM - Page 16 Empty SVG

Post  Sparma Sat Jul 29, 2017 8:32 pm

I agree, BallinD, that SVG the Coach and SVG the GM can be in tension.
Beyond that, we seem to see things a bit differently, which is fine of course.

Concerning SVG, I'm inclined to operate with the following premises/ standing points of reference:
1) he's a smart guy, who has a decent sense of what he's doing.
2) he's got certain ideals he aims for.
3) he's pragmatic (as GM at least), consequently placing a great premium on information so as to be able to act quickly, seizing opportunities.
4) as GM, he places considerable emphasis on analytics.
5) he's been stung by his experiences in Orlando, and that affects his actions currently.
6) his GM and coaching dual role provides advantages to him, but comes paired with disadvantages too.
7) where he once was cutting edge, he can be a prisoner of his own success, becoming reactionary, especially on O.

All that said, a couple of comments on what you raise:
a) he wasn't entirely sincere regarding KCP. I think he was trying to encourage KCP, who improved the first half of the season, bearing in mind that maybe shooting 33% from 3 equals 50% from 2, so that he wants to encourage 3s. Paraphrasing he might have meant something like: if he can keep shooting 35%, I'm willing to live with some bad shots (I don't recall him saying that type of thing to Josh S., who shot at a percentage where you wouldn't want him to hoist it up). But he did care, and probably wanted better shooting from his SG. Witness what happened in the offseason.

Reggie's dribbling the air out of the ball? I really doubt SVG liked that. What he liked what having a reliable pick-and-roll the preceding season with Reggie and Dre as the axis, sufficiently dynamic to lead to great improvement and a spot in the playoffs. The other was an unfortunate accompanying characteristic that he was willing to put up with, because of the Reggie/ AD results in 2015-16, and also because he needed to walk on eggshells around those two. I don't see any great inconsistency, even if there some ineffectual coaching. He knows.

He also knows about the inefficiency of the long 2 pointer, if only because of his commitment to analytics. That's a puzzler. Maybe it has to do with the players he has? When I watched, I remember that Kyle Singler (who turned out to be a marginal NBA player) did a nice job not only of cutting to the basket but also popping from the corner.

Something SVG's learned, to his chagrin, is that it's a player's league. (Incidentally, I think he'd be heralded as an outstanding college coach; maybe that's something we'll see post-Detroit, if his health doesn't collapse completely.) He did two things to address that post-Orlando/ Superman: he got a longterm contract and he got front office clout. Surprisingly to me, neither's resulted in his vision being implemented on the court though. Maybe this year's team will be more pliable to his vision? I'm guessing, for instance, that Kennard will be happy to shoot from the corner, for the high percentage 3.

Good point about SVG undervaluing the pass that leads to the good shot.

BallinD wrote:Agreeing with you on this one, but I would like to raise up the caveat, if I may.  I think much is blurred, but Stan the GM and Stan the Coach appear to operate at cross purposes.

He wants shooting; True.  GM SVG absolutely does, and I respect that, though IMHO, he underestimates or ignores the need for passing to set up the "better shot."

He has been quoted as saying, for example, in the case of KCP, (a gunner/scorer not a shooter) that he does not really mind the wild shots KCP took, even when shots were contested and not in the rhythm of the offense, he said it did not really bother him when KCP (and presumably others) took contested, high-degree of difficulty shots.  

Along the same lines, he did not seem to mind that Weggie dribbled the air out of the ball then passed it off as the shot clock wound down, resulting in a highly-contested Marcus Morris long two pointer (one of the worst shots in basketball).  He did not appear to draw up plays for corner threes very much, one of the most efficient shots in basketball.

Results: Quite probably we were the worst shooting team in the league.  Dropoffs in shooting % almost across the entire rotation.

So Stan the GM wants good shooters, but Stan the coach is too (lazy, distracted, incompetent) to draw up plays for those shooters to get good shots, allows Weggie to go all Heroball Z, allows Dre to post up for his errant hook shots, does not appear to advocate swinging the ball from side to side, players who cut to the basket, perhaps because his one-trick-pony P&R scheme as Coach is all he's got as LemonPen so eloquently stated.  I don't know.  WDYT?

Lemonpen: Weggie is an unmitigated ball hog, prone to go it alone against all odds. That is until he reaches the defensive end of the floor for a "well deserved rest".

Dre is nothing more than a gold plated blunt instrument, a universal tool used for simple tasks. Opposing guards shall continue salivating at the prospect of engaging him mano e mano. Can't you hear their thoughts; clear out / level Dre off / vroom / LAYUP !!!!.

SVG is akin to a plough horse wearing oversize blinders, treading trodden trails.

No need to look further. Our fate lies squarely in their hands. Roster upgrades remain useless until permitted to become fully engaged.
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FORUM - Page 16 Empty Sparma On SVG

Post  BallinD Sat Jul 29, 2017 1:52 pm

Agreeing with you on this one, but I would like to raise up the caveat, if I may.  I think much is blurred, but Stan the GM and Stan the Coach appear to operate at cross purposes.

He wants shooting; True.  GM SVG absolutely does, and I respect that, though IMHO, he underestimates or ignores the need for passing to set up the "better shot."

He has been quoted as saying, for example, in the case of KCP, (a gunner/scorer not a shooter) that he does not really mind the wild shots KCP took, even when shots were contested and not in the rhythm of the offense, he said it did not really bother him when KCP (and presumably others) took contested, high-degree of difficulty shots.  

Along the same lines, he did not seem to mind that Weggie dribbled the air out of the ball then passed it off as the shot clock wound down, resulting in a highly-contested Marcus Morris long two pointer (one of the worst shots in basketball).  He did not appear to draw up plays for corner threes very much, one of the most efficient shots in basketball.

Results: Quite probably we were the worst shooting team in the league. Dropoffs in shooting % almost across the entire rotation.

So Stan the GM wants good shooters, but Stan the coach is too (lazy, distracted, incompetent) to draw up plays for those shooters to get good shots, allows Weggie to go all Heroball Z, allows Dre to post up for his errant hook shots, does not appear to advocate swinging the ball from side to side, players who cut to the basket, perhaps because his one-trick-pony P&R scheme as Coach is all he's got as LemonPen so eloquently stated.  I don't know.  WDYT?

Lemonpen: Weggie is an unmitigated ball hog, prone to go it alone against all odds. That is until he reaches the defensive end of the floor for a "well deserved rest".

Dre is nothing more than a gold plated blunt instrument, a universal tool used for simple tasks. Opposing guards shall continue salivating at the prospect of engaging him mano e mano. Can't you hear their thoughts; clear out / level Dre off / vroom / LAYUP !!!!.

SVG is akin to a plough horse wearing oversize blinders, treading trodden trails.

No need to look further. Our fate lies squarely in their hands. Roster upgrades remain useless until permitted to become fully engaged.


Last edited by BallinD on Sat Jul 29, 2017 1:56 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : add)
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FORUM - Page 16 Empty SVG/ BallinD

Post  Sparma Sat Jul 29, 2017 12:56 pm

I also wish Brandon Jennings well. He had a heck of a run before getting injured.

Relatedly, I'll venture some controversial praise for SVG. Back when I was watching the games religiously, I thought SVG was off to a great start as coach when Brandon Jennings (playing his best basketball?), DJ Augustin (playing his best basketball), and the newly acquired Reggie (playing his best basketball to that point) all stepped in and played very well at PG. Surely the much criticized SVG deserved some coaching credit for that?

BallinD writes: "By way of comparing what he's said and what he does, I see no real pattern to his way, other than stubbornly going down one road and insisting it is the right one, only to bump his head and insist he went down the right road, but then he correctly reacted to the bump that so many others could see coming."

I do see that one differently, although I recognize what you're saying. I think there's a pattern to what SVG wants (shooting, D, a certain kind of O), but he needs to say the right thing as he attempts to move in the direction of his vision. Not following something like the Process, his movement in the direction of what he wants can be herky-jerky. Qua coach, SVG needs to build players up, but qua GM he's got to be at the ready to move on. Monroe was praised, but then left for nothing. Same with KCP. A variant on the theme: SVG talks of how hard it was to trade Morris, but I'm not convinced that part of him didn't welcome the prospect of a calmer locker room. Reggie's all that, until he's asked to sit down, much to Reggie's fury, in what looks like a recognition of a problem, albeit presented rhetorically as concern for Reggie. Next on the docket: Reggie's health and happiness is said to be pivotal to the team, which it is in the current configuration, but I think Stan's ready to turn on the dime if things don't pan out partway through the season.

I guess I'm saying it's a case of actions speaking louder than words. Compared to most coaches, Slick Stan the English major's quite a rhetorician.
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FORUM - Page 16 Empty RIP Brandon Jennings NBA Player

Post  BallinD Fri Jul 28, 2017 10:42 pm

Our very own Brandon Jennings, who left his heart and achilles on the floor for the Pistons is gone to China in an attempt to resurrect his career and get his mojo back. Good Luck Young Fella! guitar
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FORUM - Page 16 Empty Is Stan Van Gundy trying to do the same thing Larry Brown tried years ago? Is he trying to get fired before the season even starts?

Post  cool breeze Fri Jul 28, 2017 2:56 pm

Some good observations by posters today. I keep wondering what roster players other than AD and RJ are thinking as training camp moves closer. Those players are actually going to experience the continuing dysfunctional it seems. The gestures of Reggie Jackson are still there. SVG's sobering outlandish comments are still there including his comments lately on Leuer playing more center and how SVG thinks of him as a starter? Who else has ever thought of Leuer as an NBA starting power forward? The Suns coaching staff didn't. Who actually believes what SVG says but maybe Jeff Bower and his assistant coaches? Leuer will now be played more at the center position when he was dominated in the last Piston game playing power forward. He is not strong enough to guard power forwards but now can handle centers? No this is the world according to Stan Van Gundy. He knows that the Leuer signing was a bad one but nobody will take his contract. Is he trying to intentionally show incompetence so the owner will fire while keeping the guaranteed money in his contract?

Maybe SVG wants to ruin this franchise because perhaps the owner called him too much last winter to reprimand Stan for saying things that hurt Andre's feelings. Will SVG increase the dysfunction next year to feature Andre's new mid range jump shot just to get back at the owner? Will he have Avery Bradley coming off the bench with Harris to increase the tension with the players? Will he send Kennard and Ellenson to the G league early on regardless of how they play? Will Stanley Johnson be the guy he blames everything on again. Maybe he will bitch out Stanley in front of the fans like he did last year. Best of all, will SVG turn his back on the hardwood after AD fails to box out giving up another easy put back while flopping his arms up and down yelling to the innocent players sitting on the bench. Maybe he tells the bench guys that they were not hooping it up enough in pre game when Andre was dancing. The Pistons were as close to a circus act last season as you can get. I see few signs of any change. This will be the RJ and AD show again plan and simple. It will be dull. It will be boring. But the fans will see a few dunks now and then.

Do you think if SVG says that Leuer is a starter enough times, most fans will believe him? How about saying the Pistons are a top ten defense when they could never get stops in crunch time? There sure are a lot of creative stat people that can spin a good yarn. How can you have a top ten defensive team when two of your starters hate playing defense and always have hated that part of the game?

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FORUM - Page 16 Empty No More Lip Service

Post  lemonpen Fri Jul 28, 2017 2:08 pm

BallinD wrote:Sparma, I'm optimistic and have been for this reason.  There are plenty of fixes for what ailed us last year, but applying them requires seeing that they are fixes...SVG and his braintrust of coaches and advisors.

It is easy perhaps to see them from the perspective of seeing the forest and the trees, when you can step back from the thick of it and try to objectively analyze things.  To his detriment perhaps, it seems SVG and his slappies appear to be in the thick of it and trout out old tired GroupThink excuses and simplistic, non-nuanced solutions, such as we just need to defend better, we just need Weggie to be Healthy, or we need to shoot and make more threes.

The devil is in the details and in the desire to truly improve, not just prove my scheme works, my favorite players are really the best players, etc.

I do believe the stars could align and Bradley could bring a breath of fresh air with his style of play, Drummond will have more energy and fire, and Reggie will most of all have more energy and self awareness, Kennard will get minutes and his style of play and shooting will become infectious, and SJ will finally grow mentally into his man-sized body.

If SVG gets out of the way of organic growth and does not try to protect the feelings of his two annointed ones (Weggie and Dre) let the leadershhip emerge, that will certainly work.  But with so many slappies (in the media) encouraging him to double down on his scheme and buying and parroting his excuses and often simplistic solutions, it appears there is no pressure for him to pick the low-hanging fruit.

Consider the eye test.  This is what scares me.  Weggie interviewed after the Bradley presser, quietly bristled and flashed his me-first smirk when asked specifically if having a secondary ball handler like Bradley would take some of the pressure off him to create.  It was scary to see him saying one thing, but from his body language and facial microexpressions (there is a science behind reading microexpressions BTW), Weggie looked like he wanted to say, hey, I told you I'm back healthy and don't need no stinking help from a secondary ball handler!  I could be wrong, but that is what I read.  His persona is consistently one of the most disingenuous of any I have seen from a Piston in a long time.

On the other hand, Dre is so averse to any discussion of his flaws at any time, it seems like he is a 10-year old kid.  He will have tweet battles with fans suggesting he be traded and yet he says he knows it is just part of the business.  He does not inspire as someone who has grown up.  He talks about adding jumpers, but never about playing harder or being accountable to the team with his lethargy, behavior, or defense.

Yet some of the first words out of Bradley's mouth was he wants to help Detroit Win games and bring a "nasty style" of hard nosed defense, and he said it with conviction and fire, and others say that is his way, and we have seen that it is his way.

To me, these small telltales are as significant as SVG's bluster, the roster and the length of someone's arm wingspan or the height they measure out to.  

So yeah, I actually hope the stars align, I really do.  Leadership can do that if it is genuine. Bradley, Tolliver, and I believe SJ and Kennard will be advocates for playing the right way.  That is what I see in the alignment of the stars.

These boys can say anything they want. It'll only fall on deaf ears. I'm all about SHOW ME.
Until proven otherwise,

Weggie is an unmitigated ball hog, prone to go it alone against all odds. That is until he reaches the defensive end of the floor for a "well deserved rest".

Dre is nothing more than a gold plated blunt instrument, a universal tool used for simple tasks. Opposing guards shall continue salivating at the prospect of engaging him mano e mano. Can't you hear their thoughts; clear out / level Dre off / vroom / LAYUP !!!!.

SVG is akin to a plough horse wearing oversize blinders, treading trodden trails.

No need to look further. Our fate lies squarely in their hands. Roster upgrades remain useless until permitted to become fully engaged.
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FORUM - Page 16 Empty Good Stuff

Post  BallinD Fri Jul 28, 2017 1:54 pm

Sparma, I like what you see as well and do not disagree with any of it.  SVG does talk out of both sides of his mouth, but as you say:  

SPARMA QUOTE:  
You write of SVG's "simplistic, non-nuanced solutions, such as we just need to defend better, we just need Weggie to be Healthy, or we need to shoot and make more threes." Again, my view seems to be a little different, when taking account of SVG's vast capacity for pragmatic/ self-serving rhetoric. Example: KCP being talked up repeatedly, then disappearing without a return once that perceived better opportunity arose. I don't believe SVG believes "we just need Weggie to be Healthy" even though he's clearly said that kind of thing plenty. His recent public pronouncements about his openness to what unfolds suggests otherwise.

By way of comparing what he's said and what he does, I see no real pattern to his way, other than stubbornly going down one road and insisting it is the right one, only to bump his head and insist he went down the right road, but then he correctly reacted to the bump that so many others could see coming.  He may be capable of learning though.  His reputation is at stake and the door is open for the Stones to walk in and claim a place at the EC Playoffs table.

SVG today, via Langlois:   “I think we’ve got to do a better job of using our entire roster.”

Reminded of that this week, Van Gundy chuckled and said, “I hope so. I hope so. Again, I’ve never been that guy.”

Can he become that guy – a coach who employs less of a rigid rotational system and more of a case-by-case rotation based on opponent, schedule and game situation?

SVG: “Most of the time you go in and you have a pretty damn good idea. There might be a spot or two, but for the most part you know who’s going to play. I really don’t right now. I’m more wide open to other possibilities than I’ve been at any time as a head coach in this league. We’ll just have to see how it goes.”


Troubling Comment
Van Gundy plans to use Leuer “a lot more” as a center this season.  Change, but is it the correct change?  I think not, but time will tell.
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Post  Sparma Fri Jul 28, 2017 1:25 pm

Funny stuff about Reggie's body language/ micro expressions. And scary, if they show he just doesn't get it.

You write: "Dre is so averse to any discussion of his flaws at any time, it seems like he is a 10-year old kid." I may see this a little differently, maybe not. I think AD's intensely self-conscious about some of his failings, particularly his FTs. In fact, I think that contributes to him screwing up in game situations. And he may be averse of any discussion, but he must have plenty of them. It sounds to me that SVG and crew are so aware of AD's hyper sensitivity that they treat him with kid gloves. So far, that hasn't yielded impressive results.

You write of SVG's "simplistic, non-nuanced solutions, such as we just need to defend better, we just need Weggie to be Healthy, or we need to shoot and make more threes." Again, my view seems to be a little different, when taking account of SVG's vast capacity for pragmatic/ self-serving rhetoric. Example: KCP being talked up repeatedly, then disappearing without a return once that perceived better opportunity arose. I don't believe SVG believes "we just need Weggie to be Healthy" even though he's clearly said that kind of thing plenty. His recent public pronouncements about his openness to what unfolds suggests otherwise.

Not sure if this counts as speculation or factual regarding SVG: he's a smart guy, who clearly recognizes problems, and has a good sense of the kind of solutions he wants (witness his off season moves, which display a distinctive pattern).

BUT he got scorched in Orlando by being too harsh with players, particularly Howard. He's critical here too (eg with Stanley) but also extremely/ overly delicate, as with AD and Reggie. Regarding some shift in manner I'd speculate: a) he's learned from the backlash to his relentless abrasiveness in Orlando, so lightens up some and b) he figures he's got the front office clout to address problems there, if the issue becomes unbearable. So he's going to support Reggie fiercely as long as that serves his purposes, but he'll turn around and dump him if Reggie will not/ cannot get with the program.




BallinD wrote:Sparma, I'm optimistic and have been for this reason.  There are plenty of fixes for what ailed us last year, but applying them requires seeing that they are fixes...SVG and his braintrust of coaches and advisors.

It is easy perhaps to see them from the perspective of seeing the forest and the trees, when you can step back from the thick of it and try to objectively analyze things.  To his detriment perhaps, it seems SVG and his slappies appear to be in the thick of it and trout out old tired GroupThink excuses and simplistic, non-nuanced solutions, such as we just need to defend better, we just need Weggie to be Healthy, or we need to shoot and make more threes.

The devil is in the details and in the desire to truly improve, not just prove my scheme works, my favorite players are really the best players, etc.

I do believe the stars could align and Bradley could bring a breath of fresh air with his style of play, Drummond will have more energy and fire, and Reggie will most of all have more energy and self awareness, Kennard will get minutes and his style of play and shooting will become infectious, and SJ will finally grow mentally into his man-sized body.

If SVG gets out of the way of organic growth and does not try to protect the feelings of his two annointed ones (Weggie and Dre) let the leadershhip emerge, that will certainly work.  But with so many slappies (in the media) encouraging him to double down on his scheme and buying and parroting his excuses and often simplistic solutions, it appears there is no pressure for him to pick the low-hanging fruit.

Consider the eye test.  This is what scares me.  Weggie interviewed after the Bradley presser, quietly bristled and flashed his me-first smirk when asked specifically if having a secondary ball handler like Bradley would take some of the pressure off him to create.  It was scary to see him saying one thing, but from his body language and facial microexpressions (there is a science behind reading microexpressions BTW), Weggie looked like he wanted to say, hey, I told you I'm back healthy and don't need no stinking help from a secondary ball handler!  I could be wrong, but that is what I read.  His persona is consistently one of the most disingenuous of any I have seen from a Piston in a long time.

On the other hand, Dre is so averse to any discussion of his flaws at any time, it seems like he is a 10-year old kid.  He will have tweet battles with fans suggesting he be traded and yet he says he knows it is just part of the business.  He does not inspire as someone who has grown up.  He talks about adding jumpers, but never about playing harder or being accountable to the team with his lethargy, behavior, or defense.

Yet some of the first words out of Bradley's mouth was he wants to help Detroit Win games and bring a "nasty style" of hard nosed defense, and he said it with conviction and fire, and others say that is his way, and we have seen that it is his way.

To me, these small telltales are as significant as SVG's bluster, the roster and the length of someone's arm wingspan or the height they measure out to.  

So yeah, I actually hope the stars align, I really do.  Leadership can do that if it is genuine. Bradley, Tolliver, and I believe SJ and Kennard will be advocates for playing the right way.  That is what I see in the alignment of the stars.
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Post  cool breeze Fri Jul 28, 2017 1:00 pm

BallinD wrote:I have to wonder if SVG and his teams read any of the analytical articles from Fansided or SBNation: Detroit Bad Boys relating to strategy.  Do they even question whether there is low hanging fruit to be bagged.  

Do they even question whether:

1. Posting Dre up is such a good idea.

2. Shooting so many long twos and avoiding the easiest three-point corner shot is a good idea.

3. Playing Reggie on the second night of back-to-backs (SEGABABA)

4. Failing to play Boban is a winning strategy

5. Letting Weggie dribble the air out of the ball without passing(he ranks second in the league in seconds of holding the ball)

Per Fansided: Second Game of Back  To Backs

Jackson was an unmitigated disaster in SEGABABA, averaging 10.6 points and 4.8 rebounds on 35 percent from the floor and 26 percent from three-point range. He had an incredible -17.4 net rating in those games and a 41.4 percent true shooting rate.

In all games that were not SEGABABA, however, Jackson was not so drastically diminished from his performance of 2015-16 in which he nearly made the Eastern Conference All-Star team. Per Lazarus Jackson once again, Reggie Jackson averaged 15.2 points and 5.3 assists, hitting 43 percent from the floor and 37 percent from three-point range.

I can't recall the article yesterday that provided insight into the lack of recognition skills players had last season but the film doesn't lie. Failing to see open players in the paint or screwing up floor spacing for players who do get a pass and a clear lane to the basket but can't go because a teammate got himself too close to the opening which allowed his defender to help with the Piston with the ball. This is directly due to poor coaching or lack of aptitude in being able to learn from coaching. There is no other explanation. Maybe coaches do not recognize what is going on so they can correct or teach the players how to correct those mis cues. It didn't appear that the head coach recognized what was going on at times. I had a difficult time reading that article and it should be embarrassing for all of the current Piston coaches if they took the time to see the video provided by the author. Basketball is a simple easy game if you have a brain and use it. Are the coaches are brain dead on this current staff or the players who will be coming back for another go around? Maybe that is why they are content to run the 1 in 4 out offense featuring post ups from Andre and ball dominance from their point guards. Maybe that is the only thing this coaching staff knows or the only offense the players are capable of running.

Ballin you pointed out how Reggie ranks high in being a ball hog or having the ball in his hands for X amount of seconds for each possession. I wonder about Ish Smith and his time of possession. He tried to mimic what Reggie did and must have been told to play that way because he didn't play that way in Philly. Just which group make up the retarded component is it the coaching staff or the roster players? This lame offense will never produce an effective NBA half court offense. Reggie Jackson is in uniform to help Andre Drummond score more points. However, how many points are really generated per game from the Reggie - Andre pick and roll play? How many dunks per game does Andre get since opponents now know that this is the only strategy the coaching staff can come up with? Part of the failure of this team last season was lack of effort but lack of ball movement, player movement, screening, having a 2nd, 3rd or 4th option was equally lacking. To me the Detroit Pistons looked like the dumbest team in the league. The team seldom used both sides of the court because of the dribble happy point guards, Jackson and Smith were always being forced to one side by every opponent. The coaching staff just looked without recognizing or responding to what the opponent defense strategy was game after game. There was no plan to counter the opponent's plan.

So it is really funny now to read that SVG says everything is wide open as to what lineups he will end up using. Will it matter as long as the Piston coaching staff have no plan and cannot create a team that can adjust to opponents defensive strategy? Hit the brick wall head on and get up and hit your head against the wall again. That is the strategy it appears. The only explanation for this behavior by the coaching staff and the head coach is that they are not really in charge of anything. The only thing that makes sense is that the owner and one or two players on the team set the tone as to what the strategy will be for the Piston offense. When the coaches do not involve 3 of the 5 players in the offense and the center and point guard jockey around on offense to make something happen, who wants to play on that team? Better yet, who wants to watch that team? Maybe some fans who are brain dead just love to see the center dunk the ball two times per game. My gut feeling is that until Andre Drummond is traded, this team will not change. The offense will be centered around the center and the point guard much like last season regardless of what SVG is saying now. That is why SVG brought in his idea this week that Jon Leuer is a starter caliber player. He is a starter. Harris is a starter but is very effective coming off the bench. If Leuer is the starter, he will stand out beyond the 3 point line like Charlie V did such a good job doing. Don't want Harris getting the ball with the starting group and putting it on the floor. He will mess with Andre getting his touches in the starting group.

This must be SVG in practice. Hey Avery you go down to the baseline beyond the 3 point line and stand there. Yep that's good now stay right there. Now Stanley you go over to the opposite side and stand on the wing if Reggie goes to Avery's side. Leuer you stand out beyond the 3 point line on the strong side which is Avery's side if you get confused. Andre get ready to receive the ball in the post on the strong side. You go to the opposite baseline side and then cut to the strong side. Reggie you just dribble around until Andre is open or you get your shot. Now just repeat that offensive set for the entire game. If you can get into the paint Reggie do it and then look for Andre for the dunk. This is what the owner is paying large sums of money for and the coach is trying to make the entire offense appear to be very complicated. Can anyone figure out why this team had such bad chemistry last season? Who wants to play on the dumbest team in the NBA? Some of the players are embarrassed. Zeke made some comments in a more politically friendly way on NBA TV last year about the Piston's offense and their composition of players. Does anyone believe that if Zeke were in his prime he would go along with this coaching staff's offensive strategy? It wouldn't happen. Zeke would be asking for a trade to get himself out of the madness. He would not want to play with Andre Drummond in the first place. Imagine Isiah Thomas getting drafted with his skill set and coming in to the Piston team with Andre already established as the team leader as per the instructions of Tom Gores and Stan Van Gundy. How could he react? Not well I guarantee. No sane player would want to play in SVG's system last season. As long as AD is running the team and the offense created by the coach is for Andre Drummond to get on the All Star team as the primary goal by building offensive stats the Detroit Pistons will always be a team that opposing announcers create jokes over like they did last season. How many times did I hear, why in hell do they run the offense through Andre Drummond? Why do the point guards dribble around so much until the shot clock is almost extinguished? This was the coaches plan or the owners plan that the coaches implemented. Nothing changed all season long. No adjustments were made. The rules were in place. No deviation from the game plan was allowed by the head coach who might have been following orders from the owner because of his relationship with the center. Ah well the dancing sure was great before the games. We have an All Star who can really dance. The owner loves good entertainment.

Does anyone really believe that until Andre Drummond is finally traded, anything will look different with the Piston's offense? I am not writing this because I hate Andre Drummond. This is not his fault. He of course wants to score a lot of points and hates playing defense but there are a lot of highly paid players like that.  This post is directed to the owner and the Piston coaching staff. They both failed to do the right thing last season so why would anyone want to buy a season ticket this season? Who can trust them to do the right thing? The players should be allowed to to have a voice on which offense should be used and who should be featured in that offense. Last season was pure madness and I know of few situations where coaches were allowed to return after such dysfunction was displayed. We must remember that there were no adjustments made other than moving Harris to the bench and benching Johnson at certain times of the season. There was no change in the offensive strategy when that strategy did not work. So we must deduce that the coaching staff fully approved of the play of Andre Drummond and Reggie Jackson who were the featured players in that offense. The offensive objectives were never changed even when the team was being blown out in the first and 3rd quarters. SVG is now talking almost the same way he talked before training camp last season. Everything is wide open but of course he will feature the 4 out 1 in with AD as our center piece. He is our All Star. And remember how great Reggie played two seasons ago. Don't forget that. The rest of the players will of course be a big problem so SVG will have to study hard to figure out how to use them to fit the offense. He will be watching the young players real close you can bet on that. And this time around no opposing team will be able to figure out SVG's offensive strategy either even though Reggie and Ish will continue to dribble around until they create something. You can take that to the bank because SVG says we now have more pieces to stand around and watch Reggie and Andre. And those guys better play some defense because they will all be well rested on offense. Poor Andre and Reggie and Ish will be too tired to play much of any defense because they really work hard on offense.  Are the Pistons labeled as a franchise that might be as dumb as a box of rocks? Were we idiots last year because we watched them play so many dull games? At least the players get paid a lot of money. Maybe we should watch more golf re runs next winter. Or better yet, why not support the local high school teams more?

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Post  BallinD Fri Jul 28, 2017 12:31 pm

Sparma, I'm optimistic and have been for this reason.  There are plenty of fixes for what ailed us last year, but applying them requires seeing that they are fixes...SVG and his braintrust of coaches and advisors.

It is easy perhaps to see them from the perspective of seeing the forest and the trees, when you can step back from the thick of it and try to objectively analyze things.  To his detriment perhaps, it seems SVG and his slappies appear to be in the thick of it and trout out old tired GroupThink excuses and simplistic, non-nuanced solutions, such as we just need to defend better, we just need Weggie to be Healthy, or we need to shoot and make more threes.

The devil is in the details and in the desire to truly improve, not just prove my scheme works, my favorite players are really the best players, etc.

I do believe the stars could align and Bradley could bring a breath of fresh air with his style of play, Drummond will have more energy and fire, and Reggie will most of all have more energy and self awareness, Kennard will get minutes and his style of play and shooting will become infectious, and SJ will finally grow mentally into his man-sized body.

If SVG gets out of the way of organic growth and does not try to protect the feelings of his two annointed ones (Weggie and Dre) let the leadershhip emerge, that will certainly work.  But with so many slappies (in the media) encouraging him to double down on his scheme and buying and parroting his excuses and often simplistic solutions, it appears there is no pressure for him to pick the low-hanging fruit.

Consider the eye test.  This is what scares me.  Weggie interviewed after the Bradley presser, quietly bristled and flashed his me-first smirk when asked specifically if having a secondary ball handler like Bradley would take some of the pressure off him to create.  It was scary to see him saying one thing, but from his body language and facial microexpressions (there is a science behind reading microexpressions BTW), Weggie looked like he wanted to say, hey, I told you I'm back healthy and don't need no stinking help from a secondary ball handler!  I could be wrong, but that is what I read.  His persona is consistently one of the most disingenuous of any I have seen from a Piston in a long time.

On the other hand, Dre is so averse to any discussion of his flaws at any time, it seems like he is a 10-year old kid.  He will have tweet battles with fans suggesting he be traded and yet he says he knows it is just part of the business.  He does not inspire as someone who has grown up.  He talks about adding jumpers, but never about playing harder or being accountable to the team with his lethargy, behavior, or defense.

Yet some of the first words out of Bradley's mouth was he wants to help Detroit Win games and bring a "nasty style" of hard nosed defense, and he said it with conviction and fire, and others say that is his way, and we have seen that it is his way.

To me, these small telltales are as significant as SVG's bluster, the roster and the length of someone's arm wingspan or the height they measure out to.  

So yeah, I actually hope the stars align, I really do.  Leadership can do that if it is genuine. Bradley, Tolliver, and I believe SJ and Kennard will be advocates for playing the right way.  That is what I see in the alignment of the stars.
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Post  Sparma Fri Jul 28, 2017 11:32 am

Good stuff.

I hadn't realized the huge drop off for Reggie in the back-to-backs. That looks like a quick fix, although I'd want to know how much numbers of players in general, and of PGs in particular, drop off by way of comparison. Still, with Reggie's stamina issues which Don describes so vividly, it makes sense that he's got an extraordinary problem, one that we have the roster to address.

And I liked your earlier optimism, maybe more attempted than heartfelt?, about the various ways in which the stars may be aligned for this season. I'm feeling pretty good about the upcoming season.

BallinD wrote:I have to wonder if SVG and his teams read any of the analytical articles from Fansided or SBNation: Detroit Bad Boys relating to strategy.  Do they even question whether there is low hanging fruit to be bagged.  

Do they even question whether:

1. Posting Dre up is such a good idea.

2. Shooting so many long twos and avoiding the easiest three-point corner shot is a good idea.

3. Playing Reggie on the second night of back-to-backs (SEGABABA)

4. Failing to play Boban is a winning strategy

5. Letting Weggie dribble the air out of the ball without passing(he ranks second in the league in seconds of holding the ball)

Per Fansided: Second Game of Back  To Backs

Jackson was an unmitigated disaster in SEGABABA, averaging 10.6 points and 4.8 rebounds on 35 percent from the floor and 26 percent from three-point range. He had an incredible -17.4 net rating in those games and a 41.4 percent true shooting rate.

In all games that were not SEGABABA, however, Jackson was not so drastically diminished from his performance of 2015-16 in which he nearly made the Eastern Conference All-Star team. Per Lazarus Jackson once again, Reggie Jackson averaged 15.2 points and 5.3 assists, hitting 43 percent from the floor and 37 percent from three-point range.
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Post  BallinD Thu Jul 27, 2017 9:16 pm

I have to wonder if SVG and his teams read any of the analytical articles from Fansided or SBNation: Detroit Bad Boys relating to strategy.  Do they even question whether there is low hanging fruit to be bagged.  

Do they even question whether:

1. Posting Dre up is such a good idea.

2. Shooting so many long twos and avoiding the easiest three-point corner shot is a good idea.

3. Playing Reggie on the second night of back-to-backs (SEGABABA)

4. Failing to play Boban is a winning strategy

5. Letting Weggie dribble the air out of the ball without passing(he ranks second in the league in seconds of holding the ball)

Per Fansided: Second Game of Back  To Backs

Jackson was an unmitigated disaster in SEGABABA, averaging 10.6 points and 4.8 rebounds on 35 percent from the floor and 26 percent from three-point range. He had an incredible -17.4 net rating in those games and a 41.4 percent true shooting rate.

In all games that were not SEGABABA, however, Jackson was not so drastically diminished from his performance of 2015-16 in which he nearly made the Eastern Conference All-Star team. Per Lazarus Jackson once again, Reggie Jackson averaged 15.2 points and 5.3 assists, hitting 43 percent from the floor and 37 percent from three-point range.
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Post  cool breeze Thu Jul 27, 2017 8:46 pm

BallinD wrote:Aligned so that Weggie and Bradley find themselves conspiring to share the ball among themselves and the team, especially the primary and secondary scorers like Tobias, Leuer SJ, Kennard (do not freeze out the rookie)
and especially (not Dre for post-ups).

Aligned for Chemistry to develop organically among the alpha dogs (whoever works hardest and plays the right way) and not imposed by Stupid Van Gundy.

Aligned for it to rain threes in the new arena at the hands of Bradley, RJax, Tobias, Bullock, Kennard, Galloway, Ellensen, SJ.

Aligned for another run at a top ten-top five defense, this will require a step-up for Dre and Weggie, maybe more Moreland than we expect, especially for small-ball defense, doses of SJ and Bullock.

Aligned for a run at the fourth-sixth seed.

Aligned for a significant upgrade on the 1 in 4 out, including multiple pick-and-rolls, secondary ball handlers and cuts to the basket, swinging the ball to the weak side, more of a modern motion offense, and limiting post ups to Boban.

I start dreaming like you and then I read where SVG is not sure if Leuer should be the starter over other power forwards on the Piston roster. This is a player that no team in the NBA will consider as a throw in unless the Pistons throw in several high draft picks and one good roster players. Leuer received an insane type contract based on how he played for Phoenix. Last season he showed that he cannot defend power forwards and when playing next to Drummond the paint is wide open. the weak side is open. The free throw line is wide open. And Leuer doesn't have the body that can keep opponents off the glass. So what does SVG do now? Make Leuer a starter again. Did you read that nonsense in the interview that was supposed to be about Harris. Yes SVG considers Harris and starter but several starter quality players have sacrificed and come off the bench to give the reserves a special punch.

Is Oracle correct that SVG will seldom even play guys like Kennard and Ellenson and stick with many of the players who failed last season? SVG has us all guessing.



 

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Post  BallinD Thu Jul 27, 2017 6:29 pm

Aligned so that Weggie and Bradley find themselves conspiring to share the ball among themselves and the team, especially the primary and secondary scorers like Tobias, Leuer SJ, Kennard (do not freeze out the rookie)
and especially (not Dre for post-ups).

Aligned for Chemistry to develop organically among the alpha dogs (whoever works hardest and plays the right way) and not imposed by Stupid Van Gundy.

Aligned for it to rain threes in the new arena at the hands of Bradley, RJax, Tobias, Bullock, Kennard, Galloway, Ellensen, SJ.

Aligned for another run at a top ten-top five defense, this will require a step-up for Dre and Weggie, maybe more Moreland than we expect, especially for small-ball defense, doses of SJ and Bullock.

Aligned for a run at the fourth-sixth seed.

Aligned for a significant upgrade on the 1 in 4 out, including multiple pick-and-rolls, secondary ball handlers and cuts to the basket, swinging the ball to the weak side, more of a modern motion offense, and limiting post ups to Boban.




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Post  cool breeze Thu Jul 27, 2017 2:01 pm

Murph wrote:Don, your rants against Drummond are amusing, but there are two sides to every story.  At the time of the team meeting last year, the team was 10-11.  You could represent the situation from Marcus Morris' viewpoint and claim that the Pistons were playing like a well oiled machine, and that Drummond and Jackson were the cancers.  Or you could represent the situation from Drummond's viewpoint and claim that the Pistons were NOT playing like a well oiled machine, and that Morris was the cancer.

In making your determination, please consider that the year before Drummond and Jackson had led the team to the playoffs for the first time in 7 years, and that Drummond was an All-Star.  And then also please consider that Morris has a past history of being a cancer on his previous team, the Suns.

Given the evidence, the odds are that the real problem with team chemistry last season was Marcus Morris, not Andre Drummond.  And with Morris gone this season, we will know for sure soon enough.  If the Pistons play well this year and make the playoffs, Morris was the problem.  If the Pistons continue to struggle and miss the playoffs again, then most likely Drummond and Jackson are the problems.

Murph did you actually watch many games last year especially after Reggie Jackson returned to action and failed yet still played for some odd reason? I didn't see where Morris didn't give a good effort on both ends after the players only meeting. However, I am not alone in noticing after actually watching those miserable games that both Andre and Reggie played as if they could care less about actually winning a game. Neither played hard for one complete game after that meeting. It was as if they got together and said screw it we will show the rest of the team who is boss. What didn't help was SVG acting as a protector to the two most dysfunctional players at the time. The Piston organization deserved to lose big and they did because management provided no leadership or backing to the players who did give an honest effort.

Murgh you keep bringing up the Morris brothers mis behavior when they played for the Suns. I agree with you that they were chemistry killers there. But it appears that both men are now on a different course now and at least on the court played the right way and in the case of Marcus he was the guy who tried to stand up for what is right. Reggie and Andre represented the wrong way to lead and it showed big time as the season progressed after that meeting. While I am not unhappy that Morris is gone, I will say that he was one of the most stable consistent Piston players while he played for Detroit of anyone on the roster.

And one should not forget what actually went on during the games in the 1st and 3rd quarters of almost every game the team played after the players only team meeting. Morris got back on defense. Morris was in the right spots on the floor on offense. But Andre wasn't giving an honest effort. Reggie perhaps was unable to give an honest effort but if that was the case, he should have taken himself out of the lineup. And there is no excuse for the actions of Stan Van Gundy. He was a horrible head coach after the players only team meeting. The players lost respect for him after he make those stupid statements that he didn't like what went on in the players only team meeting. SVG was a coward. He feared addressing the real problems on the team and the biggest problem of all was Andre Drummond and his goofy attitude while posing as a team leader. How can anyone forget? Who can now trust anything that SVG does if he actually was in charge and not the owner.

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Post  Sparma Thu Jul 27, 2017 12:47 pm

Deus, Keith Langlois is the opposite of a "fault finder" (to the point of being annoying). He accounted for the most spectacular part of that run -- the 3 road wins in a road just before Reggie got back -- by referring to uncanny shooting from distance during that stretch. There was a good dose of luck, in other words, was his claim (maybe he changed his tune later).

Murph, I'd speculated that SVG including Morris in the trade was partly an effort to bring back harmony to the locker room. I still think that may have been a factor, but I've become convinced that SVG didn't see Morris as a cancer, given the high praise with which he sent him off (didn't he speak of it being the toughest thing he's done?). Maybe more of an attempt at healing than of singling out the problem then.

If that's correct, there's another way of looking at a successful season than you suggest. It wouldn't be Morris was a bad guy if the Pistons succeed. If they succeed it could be that the rift in the locker room (ie Morris, AD, Reggie taken together) was a major problem and that sending out a leader of a faction was crucial.

What I'd want to know in comparison with a successful season, and never will, is what would have happened if Reggie (or AD) had been sent out?

My final comment is probably unfair, but I don't see a way around it. If the Pistons have another bad season, Reggie and AD will be prime candidates as cause in my mind, although there would be other candidates too (apart from injury) like ineffective coaching/ stale offensive plan, failure of youngsters to emerge/ be given good opportunities, and an ongoing failure of the roster/ locker room to gel.



Murph wrote:Don, your rants against Drummond are amusing, but there are two sides to every story.  At the time of the team meeting last year, the team was 10-11.  You could represent the situation from Marcus Morris' viewpoint and claim that the Pistons were playing like a well oiled machine, and that Drummond and Jackson were the cancers.  Or you could represent the situation from Drummond's viewpoint and claim that the Pistons were NOT playing like a well oiled machine, and that Morris was the cancer.

In making your determination, please consider that the year before Drummond and Jackson had led the team to the playoffs for the first time in 7 years, and that Drummond was an All-Star.  And then also please consider that Morris has a past history of being a cancer on his previous team, the Suns.

Given the evidence, the odds are that the real problem with team chemistry last season was Marcus Morris, not Andre Drummond.  And with Morris gone this season, we will know for sure soon enough.  If the Pistons play well this year and make the playoffs, Morris was the problem.  If the Pistons continue to struggle and miss the playoffs again, then most likely Drummond and Jackson are the problems.
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Post  Murph Thu Jul 27, 2017 11:11 am

Don, your rants against Drummond are amusing, but there are two sides to every story. At the time of the team meeting last year, the team was 10-11. You could represent the situation from Marcus Morris' viewpoint and claim that the Pistons were playing like a well oiled machine, and that Drummond and Jackson were the cancers. Or you could represent the situation from Drummond's viewpoint and claim that the Pistons were NOT playing like a well oiled machine, and that Morris was the cancer.

In making your determination, please consider that the year before Drummond and Jackson had led the team to the playoffs for the first time in 7 years, and that Drummond was an All-Star. And then also please consider that Morris has a past history of being a cancer on his previous team, the Suns.

Given the evidence, the odds are that the real problem with team chemistry last season was Marcus Morris, not Andre Drummond. And with Morris gone this season, we will know for sure soon enough. If the Pistons play well this year and make the playoffs, Morris was the problem. If the Pistons continue to struggle and miss the playoffs again, then most likely Drummond and Jackson are the problems.

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Post  deusXango Thu Jul 27, 2017 9:07 am

How do the "fault finders" explain the 11-10 record Ish Smith led the Pistons to, at the start of his first season in Detroit? Had he started the entire year, how would've our final record been...just speculate.

Why is SVG so determined to make Jon Leuer a starting PF for the Pistons? He's outmuscled by too many PF's in the league, doesn't compliment Drummonds skillset, and quite possibly will be outplayed by Anthony Tolliver, who's at the end of his career.

What'll SVG's coaching strategy be like this year, with the abundance of offensive threats at his disposal? Overall there's been improvement on the defensive side of the ball and the pros seem to be out weighing the cons. What will our rotation look like and how deep will it go? Thoughts?

When will we see exactly what Galloway, Moreland, Ellenson, and Kennard have to offer and how much Tolliver have left in the tank?
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Post  cool breeze Wed Jul 26, 2017 8:46 pm

i know that we only saw him play in the summer league but I was impressed. He didn't take any plays off. His defensive rotations were spot on. He helped teammates on defense. Moreland is athletic and gets from end to end quickly. And he can make free throws. What is not to like about this 25 year old player? Boban is a question mark. Can he run the court fast enough to protect the paint? Will Drummond be engaged and can he make free throws well enough to be on the floor in crunch time?

If there were good offers for Drummond this summer that were rejected, that gamble will look like a bad one if Andre cannot make free throws when opponents hack him in the 4th quarter this coming season. He will have to be an outstanding defender this season or his trade value will be even lower next summer. It will be very interesting to see how the coach and the player handles stress next season.

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Post  cool breeze Wed Jul 26, 2017 4:48 pm

Sparma wrote:Don, you score a lot of good points against AD.  Still, if he really has lost 20 pounds over the summer, I give him a lot of credit for that.  Not easy to do.  I'm hoping we find him determined to be a better player, in the mold of the C Murph describes.

cool breeze wrote:
Murph wrote:I think the best course of action for Drummond would be to bag the low post offense completely and focus on rebounding, weak side shot blocking and improving his defense.  He is clearly a sub-par offensive player, and any focus his puts on his offense only takes away from his strength which is rebounding.  He should turn himself into a Ben Wallace type of offensive garbage man who only scores on put-backs, pick-and-roll dunks and alley-oops.  He could still score 10 or 12 ppg that way, with a 60% field goal percentage or higher.  And in the meantime, he could focus on rebounding, shot blocking and improving his defense.

And he needs to play all-out all the time.  He needs to play hard, with the understanding that he probably won't be playing late in the 4th quarter anyway, so who cares if he expends his energy early in the game or racks up early fouls.

If he did this, he could be a really special player.  SVG, are you listening?

Murph in defense of SVG coaching Drummond has been impossible. Everything you mentioned in this post is right on relating to What Drummond needs to give to this Piston team. Stan Van Gundy is no fool. He wants exactly what you have stated from Andre Drummond. However, Andre has other interests that do not include any of your suggestions. He is working on his shooting touch this summer. Last summer he worked on that baseline hook shot. Like you mentioned, Tom Gores has acted as Andre's driver in the past, Drummond has a hot line to the owner. This might be like being a high school basketball coach and fate has it that the superintendent has a son who is going out for the varsity and wants updates from the coach everyday as how things are going in practice and where will the son fit in position wise and then ask the coach to make his son the team captain. Murph it is not SVG's idea to feature Drummond so much on offense especially with that lame baseline hook shot. But I guess it tells us a lot about what kind of person the coach is to even stick around in that job. MONEY might be a motivator to allow dysfunction. Show me the money Mr. Owner and I will give him special rest periods in practice and 20 touches a game.  

I was critical of SVG for most of last season. Nothing made sense to me. Then as more information brought up relating to the politics that goes on within NBA teams more makes sense to me as to why the Pistons looked so much like lost souls and certain players were never punished for "not being engaged" enough. On a high school or college team a player would be punished by taking away playing time. With Detroit last year the head coach appeared to be oblivious when players were destroying chances of the team to be successful. a couple of good posters have described Reggie after the players only meeting and how he ran the offense determined not to shoot even a wide open shot. Andre after the players only meeting with an unmistaken look of a slacker especially on defense in the first and third quarters until the end of the season. Politics was in play. Somebody really powerful inhibited the coach from doing the right thing which would have been to remove the cancer to restore team chemistry. The two players, Reggie and Andre, had big weaknesses the season before last with their inability to defend. Reggie was clearly unhealthy but even though he didn't have the burst to run that pick and roll play at a high level, he could have shown his teammates that he cared about them and showed some spunk on defense. Reggie couldn't do anything well last season yet the head coach continued on featuring him as the starter. few coaches in the NBA would do that unless they were told to do it. And then there is Andre Drummond who showed his teammates that he was not willing to interested in playing solid defense or offering shot blocking or even getting back quickly on defense. SVG gave Andre instructions last summer in their exit interview that he wanted Andre to become a more dominate defensive player. Instead, AD became less engaged on defense than the previous season. What did the coach do about it? How many coaches would voluntarily allow their team to slide down hill willingly after watching their team get blown out in the first quarter because of lack of basic effort? Something was fractured within the players - coaches bond. Outside influence had to be involved where a player or players felt immune from any recourse and the coaches had no authority. Was it the owner - player relationships that twisted things into an ugly mess? Has that all been worked out now or will it happen after the Christmas holidays again? Last season everything hinged on what AD and EJ would bring to the table to improve Detroit's playoff position. Instead everything collapsed and the final games were pitiful.

I am happy Andre has lost 20 pounds. That isn't easy to do if you are a big man especially. I agree that is a good sign. There was so much dysfunction last year who can you trust to do the right thing? The coach get in your face if you are screwing up or don't come prepared to play. He is trying to help players become more successful. I always took raw emotion from coaches when they blasted me as something positive. They cared about me. If the owner tries to come to the rescue when that happens with sensitive players, he is not helping that player get better. He is causing dysfunction. Why is it that adults always make things so complicated? High school kids know how to tolerate coaches telling them what they need to do to improve. Some highly paid adult players take that stuff as ridicule. Not allowed in my contract. Andre and Reggie need to come back with a fresh perspective and learn how to become complete players. Many doubt that they can do it. If they change the sky is the limit. The old transgressions are out there and bringing it all up should motivate them. Several of us on this forum have pointed out the insanity of the past very well. Reporters are now doing it. So there is no hiding allowed for the suspect slackers this season. Maybe SVG will not listen to outside influence and risk getting fired while in the process of making hard decisions if things go south again. I think the owner gave Andre and Reggie a one year free pass and might allow SVG to trade players who do not get on his program this time around. And we have a different blend of players on the roster. We already have some players who want to play the game the right way. That will help. Go Pistons!

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Post  Sparma Wed Jul 26, 2017 10:15 am

Don, you score a lot of good points against AD. Still, if he really has lost 20 pounds over the summer, I give him a lot of credit for that. Not easy to do. I'm hoping we find him determined to be a better player, in the mold of the C Murph describes.

cool breeze wrote:
Murph wrote:I think the best course of action for Drummond would be to bag the low post offense completely and focus on rebounding, weak side shot blocking and improving his defense.  He is clearly a sub-par offensive player, and any focus his puts on his offense only takes away from his strength which is rebounding.  He should turn himself into a Ben Wallace type of offensive garbage man who only scores on put-backs, pick-and-roll dunks and alley-oops.  He could still score 10 or 12 ppg that way, with a 60% field goal percentage or higher.  And in the meantime, he could focus on rebounding, shot blocking and improving his defense.

And he needs to play all-out all the time.  He needs to play hard, with the understanding that he probably won't be playing late in the 4th quarter anyway, so who cares if he expends his energy early in the game or racks up early fouls.

If he did this, he could be a really special player.  SVG, are you listening?

Murph in defense of SVG coaching Drummond has been impossible. Everything you mentioned in this post is right on relating to What Drummond needs to give to this Piston team. Stan Van Gundy is no fool. He wants exactly what you have stated from Andre Drummond. However, Andre has other interests that do not include any of your suggestions. He is working on his shooting touch this summer. Last summer he worked on that baseline hook shot. Like you mentioned, Tom Gores has acted as Andre's driver in the past, Drummond has a hot line to the owner. This might be like being a high school basketball coach and fate has it that the superintendent has a son who is going out for the varsity and wants updates from the coach everyday as how things are going in practice and where will the son fit in position wise and then ask the coach to make his son the team captain. Murph it is not SVG's idea to feature Drummond so much on offense especially with that lame baseline hook shot. But I guess it tells us a lot about what kind of person the coach is to even stick around in that job. MONEY might be a motivator to allow dysfunction. Show me the money Mr. Owner and I will give him special rest periods in practice and 20 touches a game.  
Sparma
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Post  cool breeze Wed Jul 26, 2017 9:49 am

Murph wrote:I think the best course of action for Drummond would be to bag the low post offense completely and focus on rebounding, weak side shot blocking and improving his defense.  He is clearly a sub-par offensive player, and any focus his puts on his offense only takes away from his strength which is rebounding.  He should turn himself into a Ben Wallace type of offensive garbage man who only scores on put-backs, pick-and-roll dunks and alley-oops.  He could still score 10 or 12 ppg that way, with a 60% field goal percentage or higher.  And in the meantime, he could focus on rebounding, shot blocking and improving his defense.

And he needs to play all-out all the time.  He needs to play hard, with the understanding that he probably won't be playing late in the 4th quarter anyway, so who cares if he expends his energy early in the game or racks up early fouls.

If he did this, he could be a really special player.  SVG, are you listening?

Murph in defense of SVG coaching Drummond has been impossible. Everything you mentioned in this post is right on relating to What Drummond needs to give to this Piston team. Stan Van Gundy is no fool. He wants exactly what you have stated from Andre Drummond. However, Andre has other interests that do not include any of your suggestions. He is working on his shooting touch this summer. Last summer he worked on that baseline hook shot. Like you mentioned, Tom Gores has acted as Andre's driver in the past, Drummond has a hot line to the owner. This might be like being a high school basketball coach and fate has it that the superintendent has a son who is going out for the varsity and wants updates from the coach everyday as how things are going in practice and where will the son fit in position wise and then ask the coach to make his son the team captain. Murph it is not SVG's idea to feature Drummond so much on offense especially with that lame baseline hook shot. But I guess it tells us a lot about what kind of person the coach is to even stick around in that job. MONEY might be a motivator to allow dysfunction. Show me the money Mr. Owner and I will give him special rest periods in practice and 20 touches a game.

cool breeze

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Post  Murph Wed Jul 26, 2017 8:02 am

I think the best course of action for Drummond would be to bag the low post offense completely and focus on rebounding, weak side shot blocking and improving his defense.  He is clearly a sub-par offensive player, and any focus his puts on his offense only takes away from his strength which is rebounding.  He should turn himself into a Ben Wallace type of offensive garbage man who only scores on put-backs, pick-and-roll dunks and alley-oops.  He could still score 10 or 12 ppg that way, with a 60% field goal percentage or higher.  And in the meantime, he could focus on rebounding, shot blocking and improving his defense.

And he needs to play all-out all the time.  He needs to play hard, with the understanding that he probably won't be playing late in the 4th quarter anyway, so who cares if he expends his energy early in the game or racks up early fouls.

If he did this, he could be a really special player. SVG, are you listening?

Murph

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