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Stan's reaction

Post  Sparma on Sun Jul 09, 2017 1:15 pm

Thanks Don!

Evidently with you, I believe it's a "fact" that the negativity/ vulgarity of Stan's comment is unusual for an NBA coach following a player's only meeting. Coaches would, I think, ordinarily be more supportive, or at least neutral.

Given that fact, what we can infer? That something unusual/ unsettling happened at the meeting. I find your account plausible, Cool, that Drummond spoke out of turn in public, covering for his buddy Reg, who had come under widespread attack [presumably for ball hogging, putting up low % shots, then not working hard on D]. More generally, I think Stan faced a team divided after the meeting. His first instinct was to try to put a lid on the trouble, hoping to go back to the order of the previous season. Didn't happen. He gradually came around on Reggie. I'm surprised Stan didn't lose more standing with the team after his reaction than he apparently did. Now, the two organizers of the protest are gone, along with a player who likely was on the wrong side from Stan's early perspective too.

If that's an appropriate inference, it becomes likely that there's likely a measure of self interest in Stan's actions in recent weeks.

Still, I'm hopeful, with Stan, that Avery contributes to the healing. I think he will. If not, I'd predict that Reggie will be the next to go, whatever the return at that point.

cool breeze wrote:
Sparma wrote:Oracle's comment about KCP and Morris being the heart and soul of the team, set me to thinking about that issue.  Setting aside, the discussion of what "facts" may be, I wondered who might be that heart and soul, if not KCP and Morris.  Are there other viable candidates?

Can we agree that Drummond and Jackson were the heart and soul in 2015-'16?  There are a host of considerations, but I'm going to skip over those now.

Once the team flourished early in 2016 without Reggie there was a heated debate, to which SVG reacted dismissively.  Could that debate be seen as one over the soul of the team?  More prosaically, there was strong disagreement about style of play, defensive accountability, and distribution of opportunities.  

Who were the leaders of the revolt against the Reggie/ AD axis?  Well, Baynes called the meeting, along with Morris.  No wonder SVG reacted so hostilely: the divided soul of the team had come to light, and he could only offer band aids in response.

What about KCP?  Here, I become super speculative, but we seem to agree that he plays better with Reggie.  Baynes likely was too marginal to be at the heart of hearts of the team, but he played a part.

So who made up the heart and soul of the team?  Not one person, or even two.  Instead two parties made up the soul, battling for supremacy.  (btw, Harris made some impressive leadership comments earlier this summer while AD made a dud remark, cited by Don more than once.)

If my analysis/ dramatic rendition's at all on track, maybe it's not a total coincidence that Baynes and Morris are gone?  And we can see part of the hope Stan has in the trade and release of KCP?  To my mind, Bradley emerges as the new soul of the franchise (read an interesting piece about him emerging as leader in Boston last year, along with Horford).  His qualities (defense, shooting, grittiness), Stan may well think, supplement AD and Reggie nicely, without supplanting them.  But he also seems like a good fit with the rebels.  Is a healing afoot?  Might that be part of Stan's plan?

Sparma I really appreciate your thoughts here. I still cannot figure out why SVG made any comments about this players only meeting. It doesn't make sense to me because during periods when a team has real struggles especially with the amount of regular season games that are played where it is inevitable for every team to have those moments I can't recall any situation in the past from my experience where a head coach has said anything other than tell the press that he appreciated his players calling a meeting to work out issues only players can sort out privately. I think Stan responded with negative comments to protect Andre Drummond who broke the sacred trust of the PRIVATE PLAYERS ONLY get together. I have never heard of a player spouting off after such a meeting telling anyone who will listen what went on and why Andre didn't like the tone of the meeting. Maybe SVG was in shock and thought he had to say something and that was a huge mistake on his part. SVG thought the meeting made things worse rather than better. And how could things get better if Andre Drummond acted like a small child instead of a man and had to vent about those mean teammates of his who picked on his buddy. Being objective I would like Piston fans to place themselves in the bodies of the all the players and feel what they must have felt. It is Reggie and Andre together forever. Remember how they would put their arms around each other when the team was rolling well in the previous season? I thought that was out of line myself. Where Brad Stevens helps to create good chemistry by making sure all of his players believe that every individual on the team is important and needs to be respected and enforces this model by making sure that everyone of his players gets on the court and plays effective minutes maybe not every game but he makes sure no clicks form. Andre and Reggie formed a click and somehow SVG encouraged this maybe thinking that Andre might play harder if he thinks that he is the big cheese. Meanwhile KCP plays along and causes no waves because the supreme ruler, Reggie Jackson, has the bad habit of making conscious decisions on who he will pass the basketball to in the half court offense. If you are wide open on a break and the fans are watching, Reggie will pass the basketball to the open man. But in the half court Reggie Jackson has a long history of selecting certain approved players he will give the time of day to. KCP would help Reggie and bail him out on defense. So at times Reggie will return the favor and pass the basketball to Pope. If you don't submit to making Reggie THE MAN, then you might be out of luck and your career will suffer because he will take you out of the offense. I have witnessed Reggie looking directly at Morris and Johnson when they have no defender within 6 yards and they are waving their arms trying to get Reggie to look at them. Believe me he could see that the pass should have gone to them but instead Reggie would go up against two defenders or make a low percentage pass to Andre instead. Intentional failure to pass the basketball to the open man on set plays that the team practices that creates movement within the offense is what that meeting was all about.

Have you ever had to work for a bad boss? Someone comes in to run your office who doesn't have a clue and also is power hungry. you and your work teammates do have professional knowledge that the boss lacks and you or one of your fellow associates confront the boss when he or she makes some bogus decision on your work process. You do it for the sake of the organization or in health care for the good of the patients. You can be a doctor or nurse say in the health profession and inept administrator arrives to make your life hell. If you stand up in a meeting and give the reasons why the bogus decision will screw up the works, there is always some suck up fringe employee who will try to cut your throat out and side with the administrator. Believe me this is now the norm in the current hospital setting with all the hospital mergers. Switching back to the Pistons players only meeting, I see the aftermath of the meeting at the breaking point of this past season. A lot of players felt like they were really not part of the team and could feel the absence of the emotional ingredient that any teams needs to be successful relating to positive team chemistry. In my opinion there were only two players who were causing the dysfunction and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out who those two players were. The players with the exception of Reggie and Andre wanted change. They were not happy with how Andre and Reggie played lackluster defense. And they didn't like the ball dominate point guard to play hero ball and to only throw the basketball to selected pets. Andre was upset. He loved all the attention he got from Reggie. Being so immature he does the unthinkable and shares his experience in the team meeting. Then the administrator, SVG, comes to his aid instead of recognizing what he had created and put a stop to it. SVG got a lot of milage with this click Reggie and Andre created in the previous season and thought he could get a little bit more out of it perhaps but he should have told Andre to keep his trap shut and not make things worse.

Now enter Avery Bradley. He has been blessed with playing in a great environment at Boston managed by a very smart head coach who would never allow anything like the Reggie-Andre love fest to ever take place. It is going to be really interesting to watch what happens this fall. I would like to be a fly on the wall for sure. Could there be more than Reggie's knee problem that caused him to sideline himself for the last part of the season? Players were fed up with his leadership. It much was clear. Drummond tanked when Reggie's good fortune ended. The most puzzling thing to me now is how SVG would ever bring back both Reggie and Andre after what happened. Players do not trust Reggie Jackson who experienced what happened in the past. Will Reggie transform himself into something new? He was much like his old self when he played for Oklahoma and that is why the core players wanted him out and don't respect him to this day. SVG has his hands full this coming season. New leadership has to be his priority. Avery Bradley will lead by example. He is a great teammate who gives more of himself than any of the hold over players who had to experience the leadership of Andre and Reggie. Reggie and Andre will need to blend in to this new era or there will be big trouble.
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Re: FORUM

Post  cool breeze on Sun Jul 09, 2017 11:18 am

Sparma wrote:Oracle's comment about KCP and Morris being the heart and soul of the team, set me to thinking about that issue.  Setting aside, the discussion of what "facts" may be, I wondered who might be that heart and soul, if not KCP and Morris.  Are there other viable candidates?

Can we agree that Drummond and Jackson were the heart and soul in 2015-'16?  There are a host of considerations, but I'm going to skip over those now.

Once the team flourished early in 2016 without Reggie there was a heated debate, to which SVG reacted dismissively.  Could that debate be seen as one over the soul of the team?  More prosaically, there was strong disagreement about style of play, defensive accountability, and distribution of opportunities.  

Who were the leaders of the revolt against the Reggie/ AD axis?  Well, Baynes called the meeting, along with Morris.  No wonder SVG reacted so hostilely: the divided soul of the team had come to light, and he could only offer band aids in response.

What about KCP?  Here, I become super speculative, but we seem to agree that he plays better with Reggie.  Baynes likely was too marginal to be at the heart of hearts of the team, but he played a part.

So who made up the heart and soul of the team?  Not one person, or even two.  Instead two parties made up the soul, battling for supremacy.  (btw, Harris made some impressive leadership comments earlier this summer while AD made a dud remark, cited by Don more than once.)

If my analysis/ dramatic rendition's at all on track, maybe it's not a total coincidence that Baynes and Morris are gone?  And we can see part of the hope Stan has in the trade and release of KCP?  To my mind, Bradley emerges as the new soul of the franchise (read an interesting piece about him emerging as leader in Boston last year, along with Horford).  His qualities (defense, shooting, grittiness), Stan may well think, supplement AD and Reggie nicely, without supplanting them.  But he also seems like a good fit with the rebels.  Is a healing afoot?  Might that be part of Stan's plan?

Sparma I really appreciate your thoughts here. I still cannot figure out why SVG made any comments about this players only meeting. It doesn't make sense to me because during periods when a team has real struggles especially with the amount of regular season games that are played where it is inevitable for every team to have those moments I can't recall any situation in the past from my experience where a head coach has said anything other than tell the press that he appreciated his players calling a meeting to work out issues only players can sort out privately. I think Stan responded with negative comments to protect Andre Drummond who broke the sacred trust of the PRIVATE PLAYERS ONLY get together. I have never heard of a player spouting off after such a meeting telling anyone who will listen what went on and why Andre didn't like the tone of the meeting. Maybe SVG was in shock and thought he had to say something and that was a huge mistake on his part. SVG thought the meeting made things worse rather than better. And how could things get better if Andre Drummond acted like a small child instead of a man and had to vent about those mean teammates of his who picked on his buddy. Being objective I would like Piston fans to place themselves in the bodies of the all the players and feel what they must have felt. It is Reggie and Andre together forever. Remember how they would put their arms around each other when the team was rolling well in the previous season? I thought that was out of line myself. Where Brad Stevens helps to create good chemistry by making sure all of his players believe that every individual on the team is important and needs to be respected and enforces this model by making sure that everyone of his players gets on the court and plays effective minutes maybe not every game but he makes sure no clicks form. Andre and Reggie formed a click and somehow SVG encouraged this maybe thinking that Andre might play harder if he thinks that he is the big cheese. Meanwhile KCP plays along and causes no waves because the supreme ruler, Reggie Jackson, has the bad habit of making conscious decisions on who he will pass the basketball to in the half court offense. If you are wide open on a break and the fans are watching, Reggie will pass the basketball to the open man. But in the half court Reggie Jackson has a long history of selecting certain approved players he will give the time of day to. KCP would help Reggie and bail him out on defense. So at times Reggie will return the favor and pass the basketball to Pope. If you don't submit to making Reggie THE MAN, then you might be out of luck and your career will suffer because he will take you out of the offense. I have witnessed Reggie looking directly at Morris and Johnson when they have no defender within 6 yards and they are waving their arms trying to get Reggie to look at them. Believe me he could see that the pass should have gone to them but instead Reggie would go up against two defenders or make a low percentage pass to Andre instead. Intentional failure to pass the basketball to the open man on set plays that the team practices that creates movement within the offense is what that meeting was all about.

Have you ever had to work for a bad boss? Someone comes in to run your office who doesn't have a clue and also is power hungry. you and your work teammates do have professional knowledge that the boss lacks and you or one of your fellow associates confront the boss when he or she makes some bogus decision on your work process. You do it for the sake of the organization or in health care for the good of the patients. You can be a doctor or nurse say in the health profession and inept administrator arrives to make your life hell. If you stand up in a meeting and give the reasons why the bogus decision will screw up the works, there is always some suck up fringe employee who will try to cut your throat out and side with the administrator. Believe me this is now the norm in the current hospital setting with all the hospital mergers. Switching back to the Pistons players only meeting, I see the aftermath of the meeting at the breaking point of this past season. A lot of players felt like they were really not part of the team and could feel the absence of the emotional ingredient that any teams needs to be successful relating to positive team chemistry. In my opinion there were only two players who were causing the dysfunction and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out who those two players were. The players with the exception of Reggie and Andre wanted change. They were not happy with how Andre and Reggie played lackluster defense. And they didn't like the ball dominate point guard to play hero ball and to only throw the basketball to selected pets. Andre was upset. He loved all the attention he got from Reggie. Being so immature he does the unthinkable and shares his experience in the team meeting. Then the administrator, SVG, comes to his aid instead of recognizing what he had created and put a stop to it. SVG got a lot of milage with this click Reggie and Andre created in the previous season and thought he could get a little bit more out of it perhaps but he should have told Andre to keep his trap shut and not make things worse.

Now enter Avery Bradley. He has been blessed with playing in a great environment at Boston managed by a very smart head coach who would never allow anything like the Reggie-Andre love fest to ever take place. It is going to be really interesting to watch what happens this fall. I would like to be a fly on the wall for sure. Could there be more than Reggie's knee problem that caused him to sideline himself for the last part of the season? Players were fed up with his leadership. It much was clear. Drummond tanked when Reggie's good fortune ended. The most puzzling thing to me now is how SVG would ever bring back both Reggie and Andre after what happened. Players do not trust Reggie Jackson who experienced what happened in the past. Will Reggie transform himself into something new? He was much like his old self when he played for Oklahoma and that is why the core players wanted him out and don't respect him to this day. SVG has his hands full this coming season. New leadership has to be his priority. Avery Bradley will lead by example. He is a great teammate who gives more of himself than any of the hold over players who had to experience the leadership of Andre and Reggie. Reggie and Andre will need to blend in to this new era or there will be big trouble.

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Early Projections In

Post  Sparma on Sun Jul 09, 2017 11:17 am

CBS has projections in for all NBA teams. For Detroit that includes consideration of the Bradley trade. One line has them just over 41 wins (41.4 (!?)) while another has them just below the 41 mark. It's looking like a .500 team to Vegas. I see them winning more than last year, but I'm going to hold off on a specific projection because I'm guessing the team will look different by the time the season arrives.

One point of interest: the line for Philly is really similar to that for the Pistons.
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Maybe

Post  Oracle on Sun Jul 09, 2017 4:51 am

Phil1980boy wrote:Dumping KCP was A 10000% Great Decision by Van Gundy. Dare I say it, Luke will end up being A more productive 2-Guard in the NBA then KCP when it's all set and done. Maybe. Hard to say who dumped who. You generally don't make offers to players you don't want, they might accept it, so it's safe to say SVG's first choice was KCP.

Now it's time to dump Reggie Jackson. I know it's somebody out there who would be stupid enough to take on Reggie. Just like it's going to be somebody dumb and pay POPE Max money!  lol  lol Maybe, but you either move him before he shows bad, or you keep him and suffer if he doesn't get better, but now that KCP is gone, he's the only player left on the team capable of creating his own shot. Lose him and there's no hope in the 4th quarter.

Pistons fans, Don't expect the Pistons to win 50 games this season(Depends on the next move(s). Keeping Reggie & Drummond alone makes mid 40's possible if Bradley plays like he did in Boston). This will be the year of Luke, Stanley and Ellinson. The YOUTH MOVEMENT! tb  tb Again, Maybe, it all depends on SVG. If he uses Bradley like he used KCP, only Stanley will get a lot of PT because the others can't play NBA level defense, although Ellenson can in spurts. If SVG feels like a lot of wins are possible, youngsters won't get much PT, and the east should be weaker, so more wins will be easy to come by. Recognition of this fact is an area I give SVG a lot of credit, he knows he can take a small step back and still be better win wise.

I am looking for the Pistons to add A young PG to the mix very soon. This would be the best move, groom a young PG to move Reggie aside, but where do you get this guy? The good ones can't be had and scraps won't do.

Three Predictions(I'm feeling froggy, so I'm going to jump)

1. Bradley is better today, but KCP will be an all star, Bradley never will.
2. Stanley Johnson will start his rise this season, his position is a mystery to me, but I like Brad Stevens definition of positions. He says that there are only 3 positions, Ball Handlers, Wings and Big Men, so Stanley will be a wing.
3. Kennard will struggle, but eventually emerge as a 6th man, never a starter.

That's all the trouble I can cause for now  lol
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Reggie Jackson is next

Post  Phil1980boy on Sun Jul 09, 2017 2:08 am

Dumping KCP was A 10000% Great Decision by Van Gundy. Dare I say it, Luke will end up being A more productive 2-Guard in the NBA then KCP when it's all set and done.

Now it's time to dump Reggie Jackson. I know it's somebody out there who would be stupid enough to take on Reggie. Just like it's going to be somebody dumb and pay POPE Max money! lol lol

Pistons fans, Don't expect the Pistons to win 50 games this season. This will be the year of Luke, Stanley and Ellinson. The YOUTH MOVEMENT! tb tb

I am looking for the Pistons to add A young PG to the mix very soon.

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My last word

Post  Sparma on Sun Jul 09, 2017 12:32 am

Evidently.

Oracle wrote:
Sparma wrote:Comments: Is "heart and soul" factual? In what sense? Through quantifiable evidence? 
I guess you missed that, but you also missed my DIRECT answer to what you said you thought I didn't understand.

However, you keep honing in on the things that are the most peripheral topics in the discussion instead of the main points, in sort of a defensive posture, and I'm sorry if you're taking it that way.

My hope was that you would get to the meat of what we're talking about, but I've failed.
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Sparma

Post  Oracle on Sun Jul 09, 2017 12:12 am

Sparma wrote:Comments: Is "heart and soul" factual? In what sense? Through quantifiable evidence? 
I guess you missed that, but you also missed my DIRECT answer to what you said you thought I didn't understand.

However, you keep honing in on the things that are the most peripheral topics in the discussion instead of the main points, in sort of a defensive posture, and I'm sorry if you're taking it that way.

My hope was that you would get to the meat of what we're talking about, but I've failed.
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Oracle

Post  Sparma on Sat Jul 08, 2017 11:32 pm

I'm moving on more this part of the discussion, but I appreciate your response. There's much that could be discussed. For instance, you write: "when you, for whatever reason, and I hope you can explain, have assumed that everything I say is a statement of fact when I NEVER said that." Not what I assumed. What I wrote is: "You appear to view yourself as (generally) a purveyor of facts and evidence, whose connecting logical analysis results in a series of comments." I hope it's clear how that's different than what you took me to be assuming. And the "generally" makes space for a bunch of things you write that don't fit that model.


Oracle wrote:
Sparma wrote:I'll settle then for it sounded critical to me, in comparison with other assessments I've read. - Sounded critical? Hummm, not sure what that means. Especially when you, for whatever reason, and I hope you can explain, have assumed that everything I say is a statement of fact when I NEVER said that. The post you comment on was never stated that way and why you assumed that isn't something I'm doing, it's something you're doing.

More importantly, the things in that post that I stated that are ABSOLUTE FACTS, you completely ignore to focus on other things. No mention of replacing points, assists, boards or the massive size reduction in players.


Beyond that, there's a deep issue which I hesitate to raise. You appear to view yourself as (generally) a purveyor of facts and evidence, whose connecting logical analysis results in a series of comments. That's not how I see you, nor myself for that matter. I side more with BallinD who wrote (as I recall) of the valuable takes we all have, which contribute to the richness of the forum. No doubt we all seek to engage with the facts as we offer our interpretations. - I think we all do that, I know you do it regularly and I don't see a problem with that. That would appear to be the point here, to state how we see things, with the point being to get feedback about what we state, and while you appear to want to talk about how you feel about the way someone states things, I submit that the more important thing should be the content of what we're talking about, which doesn't diminish what you're asking, but it's not the main event, IMO.

With BallinD, I'm inclined to think "logic" isn't ordinarily the applicable term here, at least not if deductive logic is meant. We might be able to agree that, as forumites, we routinely attempt to make inductive inferences, that we seek to infer to the best explanation of the "evidence." Unfortunately, for us forumites that "evidence" (eg the inner workings of organizations) is often shielded from us. In my own case, to aggravate matters, I only watch bits of the action, in addition to reading and pondering the stats so that my observation data are far more limited than yours.

For instance, you write: "You don't ship out both the heart and soul(Morris & KCP) of the team to no effect., that's not arguable. Can you make up for it? Yes, and it may be easy or hard, the point is that we don't know."

Comments: Is "heart and soul" factual? In what sense? Through quantifiable evidence? That case seems hard to make for Morris, particularly. Is the assertion then not directly, or only, about numbers that he delivers, but (also) about leadership qualities? It strikes me that we're well beyond the factual realm there. For instance, presumably a big example of his leadership would be the talk/ confrontation once Reggie came back. But SVG responded: Team meeting, my a... And Murph took him to task as a locker room problem. Your assertion may be right, but, if so, if looks like an inference to the best explanation to me, not like a fact.  - Heart and soul is what the players and observers of the team report, but it's visible on the court as well. Morris is more the soul of the team, IMO. He's like Sheed, providing a level of toughness and leadership. KCP was more the heart in that without Reggie, when they needed to win, they would put the ball in his hands and ask him to bring them home. He started doing that early in his career at OKC, but that was only one game. He did it a bit more 2 years ago, and did it a lot last year. So that's where I get that, I didn't present that as a statement of FACT, but for whatever reason you decided to make it so, and as I said, maybe you can explain.

But maybe that was a throwaway line. They traded Morris for Bradley & a pick, so I can't see how that's "to no effect." 

The bigger claim seems to concern KCP, and I've already expressed partial agreement.
But is it a factual statement? Hard to see how. 

You mention a blunder. Maybe here the underlying fact is thought to be: [a] Young NBA players with KCP's level of performance rarely leave their teams with no return as RFAs. We could quibble here (eg Hardaway just left for nothing, Monroe left the year after being RFA), but something close to that seems to be a case. - I went to a lot of trouble to make sure this wasn't confusing because I know the bias on this forum. Here again, so many things are getting confused.
1. As I explained, forget who this is, it has NOTHING to do with the player, it has NOTHING to do with how good or bad he is. If you have an asset that is worth something and you lose it with no return, what do you call that? If you had $100,000 in the bank and it goes away leaving you with nothing, do you just go about your business as if nothing happened? Why you make this about KCP is the bias I was seeking to avoid, he's gone.
2. Hardaway is a totally different situation, they didn't want him back, the Pistons wanted KCP back and tried to keep him, it just didn't work because they lied too much and trust was lost.
3. Monroe, may as well add Josh Smith to the list of losing stuff and just plain paying for stuff we don't have and can't use


So, the conclusion that you appear to be offering as beyond dispute is something like: Based on fact [a], an NBA front office commits a blunder it allows a player of KCP's quality and in his situation to leave without compensation. BTW, it has NOTHING to do with KCP or quality, it's simply a business transaction with something worth X dollars and losing it for nothing.

Taken in isolation, I'm inclined to agree with this fact and the conclusion. - Great, but it's not in isolation, there's a pattern here.

But the fact doesn't occur in isolation. You mention that we don't know. No doubt. That's partly what necessitates making uncertain/ speculative inferences. We're continually in that situation as forumites, but on several counts the front office faces a comparable level of uncertainty, eg, about whether Avery will resign. There are some "facts" that are knowable now: recent maneuvers have improved the shooting at (off) guard, defense has been upgraded, some space has been created to integrate young players, the cap situation is more favorable presently than it would have been if KCP had been resigned for 20+ mil. Even these "facts" can be drawn into question, as you showed by citing defensive numbers concerning Bradley. My take is that it isn't until more evidence is in, until we have a fuller sense of the ramifications of letting KCP go (specifically, will Bradley stay long term?), that we can conclude that a blunder was committed in this specific case.  - I agree that we don't know a lot, but my opinion is that I could see Bradley as an able substitute, he is the better player at this point in their careers and he's cheaper. I do have concerns, but SVG may be able to mitigate my concerns with additional moves. However, I just don't see a 6'2 SG as a core long term solution in a division with the VERY long Bucks and the other teams in the east, Boston didn't either, they know they needed to get bigger to compete. But for next year, I can buy him here and hope we can S&T him or trade him before the season ends(I think we have his Bird Rights).
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Divided Soul?

Post  Sparma on Sat Jul 08, 2017 11:16 pm

Oracle's comment about KCP and Morris being the heart and soul of the team, set me to thinking about that issue. Setting aside, the discussion of what "facts" may be, I wondered who might be that heart and soul, if not KCP and Morris. Are there other viable candidates?

Can we agree that Drummond and Jackson were the heart and soul in 2015-'16? There are a host of considerations, but I'm going to skip over those now.

Once the team flourished early in 2016 without Reggie there was a heated debate, to which SVG reacted dismissively. Could that debate be seen as one over the soul of the team? More prosaically, there was strong disagreement about style of play, defensive accountability, and distribution of opportunities.

Who were the leaders of the revolt against the Reggie/ AD axis? Well, Baynes called the meeting, along with Morris. No wonder SVG reacted so hostilely: the divided soul of the team had come to light, and he could only offer band aids in response.

What about KCP? Here, I become super speculative, but we seem to agree that he plays better with Reggie. Baynes likely was too marginal to be at the heart of hearts of the team, but he played a part.

So who made up the heart and soul of the team? Not one person, or even two. Instead two parties made up the soul, battling for supremacy. (btw, Harris made some impressive leadership comments earlier this summer while AD made a dud remark, cited by Don more than once.)

If my analysis/ dramatic rendition's at all on track, maybe it's not a total coincidence that Baynes and Morris are gone? And we can see part of the hope Stan has in the trade and release of KCP? To my mind, Bradley emerges as the new soul of the franchise (read an interesting piece about him emerging as leader in Boston last year, along with Horford). His qualities (defense, shooting, grittiness), Stan may well think, supplement AD and Reggie nicely, without supplanting them. But he also seems like a good fit with the rebels. Is a healing afoot? Might that be part of Stan's plan?
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Sparma

Post  Oracle on Sat Jul 08, 2017 11:16 pm

Sparma wrote:I'll settle then for it sounded critical to me, in comparison with other assessments I've read. - Sounded critical? Hummm, not sure what that means. Especially when you, for whatever reason, and I hope you can explain, have assumed that everything I say is a statement of fact when I NEVER said that. The post you comment on was never stated that way and why you assumed that isn't something I'm doing, it's something you're doing.

More importantly, the things in that post that I stated that are ABSOLUTE FACTS, you completely ignore to focus on other things. No mention of replacing points, assists, boards or the massive size reduction in players.


Beyond that, there's a deep issue which I hesitate to raise. You appear to view yourself as (generally) a purveyor of facts and evidence, whose connecting logical analysis results in a series of comments. That's not how I see you, nor myself for that matter. I side more with BallinD who wrote (as I recall) of the valuable takes we all have, which contribute to the richness of the forum. No doubt we all seek to engage with the facts as we offer our interpretations. - I think we all do that, I know you do it regularly and I don't see a problem with that. That would appear to be the point here, to state how we see things, with the point being to get feedback about what we state, and while you appear to want to talk about how you feel about the way someone states things, I submit that the more important thing should be the content of what we're talking about, which doesn't diminish what you're asking, but it's not the main event, IMO.

With BallinD, I'm inclined to think "logic" isn't ordinarily the applicable term here, at least not if deductive logic is meant. We might be able to agree that, as forumites, we routinely attempt to make inductive inferences, that we seek to infer to the best explanation of the "evidence." Unfortunately, for us forumites that "evidence" (eg the inner workings of organizations) is often shielded from us. In my own case, to aggravate matters, I only watch bits of the action, in addition to reading and pondering the stats so that my observation data are far more limited than yours.

For instance, you write: "You don't ship out both the heart and soul(Morris & KCP) of the team to no effect., that's not arguable. Can you make up for it? Yes, and it may be easy or hard, the point is that we don't know."

Comments: Is "heart and soul" factual? In what sense? Through quantifiable evidence? That case seems hard to make for Morris, particularly. Is the assertion then not directly, or only, about numbers that he delivers, but (also) about leadership qualities? It strikes me that we're well beyond the factual realm there. For instance, presumably a big example of his leadership would be the talk/ confrontation once Reggie came back. But SVG responded: Team meeting, my a... And Murph took him to task as a locker room problem. Your assertion may be right, but, if so, if looks like an inference to the best explanation to me, not like a fact.  - Heart and soul is what the players and observers of the team report, but it's visible on the court as well. Morris is more the soul of the team, IMO. He's like Sheed, providing a level of toughness and leadership. KCP was more the heart in that without Reggie, when they needed to win, they would put the ball in his hands and ask him to bring them home. He started doing that early in his career at OKC, but that was only one game. He did it a bit more 2 years ago, and did it a lot last year. So that's where I get that, I didn't present that as a statement of FACT, but for whatever reason you decided to make it so, and as I said, maybe you can explain.

But maybe that was a throwaway line. They traded Morris for Bradley & a pick, so I can't see how that's "to no effect." 

The bigger claim seems to concern KCP, and I've already expressed partial agreement.
But is it a factual statement? Hard to see how. 

You mention a blunder. Maybe here the underlying fact is thought to be: [a] Young NBA players with KCP's level of performance rarely leave their teams with no return as RFAs. We could quibble here (eg Hardaway just left for nothing, Monroe left the year after being RFA), but something close to that seems to be a case. - I went to a lot of trouble to make sure this wasn't confusing because I know the bias on this forum. Here again, so many things are getting confused.
1. As I explained, forget who this is, it has NOTHING to do with the player, it has NOTHING to do with how good or bad he is. If you have an asset that is worth something and you lose it with no return, what do you call that? If you had $100,000 in the bank and it goes away leaving you with nothing, do you just go about your business as if nothing happened? Why you make this about KCP is the bias I was seeking to avoid, he's gone.
2. Hardaway is a totally different situation, they didn't want him back, the Pistons wanted KCP back and tried to keep him, it just didn't work because they lied too much and trust was lost.
3. Monroe, may as well add Josh Smith to the list of losing stuff and just plain paying for stuff we don't have and can't use


So, the conclusion that you appear to be offering as beyond dispute is something like: Based on fact [a], an NBA front office commits a blunder it allows a player of KCP's quality and in his situation to leave without compensation. BTW, it has NOTHING to do with KCP or quality, it's simply a business transaction with something worth X dollars and losing it for nothing.

Taken in isolation, I'm inclined to agree with this fact and the conclusion. - Great, but it's not in isolation, there's a pattern here.

But the fact doesn't occur in isolation. You mention that we don't know. No doubt. That's partly what necessitates making uncertain/ speculative inferences. We're continually in that situation as forumites, but on several counts the front office faces a comparable level of uncertainty, eg, about whether Avery will resign. There are some "facts" that are knowable now: recent maneuvers have improved the shooting at (off) guard, defense has been upgraded, some space has been created to integrate young players, the cap situation is more favorable presently than it would have been if KCP had been resigned for 20+ mil. Even these "facts" can be drawn into question, as you showed by citing defensive numbers concerning Bradley. My take is that it isn't until more evidence is in, until we have a fuller sense of the ramifications of letting KCP go (specifically, will Bradley stay long term?), that we can conclude that a blunder was committed in this specific case.  - I agree that we don't know a lot, but my opinion is that I could see Bradley as an able substitute, he is the better player at this point in their careers and he's cheaper. I do have concerns, but SVG may be able to mitigate my concerns with additional moves. However, I just don't see a 6'2 SG as a core long term solution in a division with the VERY long Bucks and the other teams in the east, Boston didn't either, they know they needed to get bigger to compete. But for next year, I can buy him here and hope we can S&T him or trade him before the season ends(I think we have his Bird Rights).
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Not sure why you take things the way you do...

Post  Oracle on Sat Jul 08, 2017 10:31 pm

deusXango wrote:KCP and Monroe were two different animals altogether. "The Moose" didn't want to be a Piston for any amount, so he signed the QA that Falk suggested, as a means of getting out of Detroit. KCP wanted all he could get out of Detroit, after watching SVG throw money around like a drunken dope man in the club making it rain. He was made a fair offer, which he rejected. He didn't even cast the illusion of being worth $20+ million like Reggie (who didn't get it) or Drummond (who's been vilified since signing). I hate that KCP supporters continually mix apples in with the oranges. - Nobody equated the two, you're doing that for your own reasons and building a conversation around it. I simply stated that the ONLY thing they have in common is that they were allowed to leave with us getting nothing... period, end of comparison.

Oracle
, why do you insist on stating that SVG blew $20 million in assets by not signing KCP? Did I misunderstand you? If I did I apologize. If Drummonds $25 million is an asset, or Reggie's $16 million is an asset, or Leuer's $10.5 is an asset, then these are unwanted (unless they're for pennies on the dollar) assets! Perhaps Gores and Bower told SVG "enough is enough!!"  - Yes, you completely misunderstood, he blew it by not getting 20M of assets by either trading KCP or getting a S&T. This proves his incompetence because if they didn't want to resign him, they should have helped him get the best deal that would provide a S&T, KCP would have went along with that.

It's always better to be honest, just admit that you can't afford him and ask to work together... what's so hard about that.

I'd love for KCP to get paid as much as the next Pistons fan, but going from $3.5 million a year to a max contract, with what he's proven over the last four years, is something beyond "getting paid," it's robbery. I seriously doubt the Nets are willing to be robbery victims....their first choice was a much more productive player than KCP and the team holding his rights chose to match their offer, but the team holding the rights to KCP set the market (5 years $80 million) for him. Why would the Nets pay the max to their 2nd choice? What does KCP have going for himself to just wrestle what he wants from a pro franchise? - Wow, the dude isn't here anymore, where does all of that venom come from?


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KCP/ Don

Post  Sparma on Sat Jul 08, 2017 10:17 pm

Interesting point about the role of agents, and KCP's specifically, Don. It looks like a complicated card game, where KCP's agent ended up making a major misreading of where he stood in relation to his opponent/ conversation partner. Agents have helped players immensely during past decades, but they've been harmful sometimes to players too, in going for max $$ which at times slights the best interests all things considered of the players. I'm guessing KCP still does well, maybe with Atlanta, but it could be that a one year 17 mil deal from the Lakers is the best he can get this summer, which would be a whole lot worse than his 16 mil x 5 from the Pistons. Coming into the off-season, I did think, with his agent, that KCP would get more than that. It's easy for an agent (and for us forumites) to act on a calculation of the odds; sometimes the player loses out as person when he needs to live out the consequences of miscalculation. I'll be interested to see how things unfold for KCP, and do wish him well.


cool breeze wrote:
Sparma wrote:I think it's fair to say that, among forumites, you've had the most positive take on the team in recent times.  I'm surprised then that you have about the most negative take on yesterday's events that I've encountered, whether among forumites or national commentators.  Maybe the two are related?  

If I could just keep two things separate my assessment would be clear:

a) the trade was excellent, sweetened by the inclusion of the 2nd rounder.

b) the loss of KCP for nothing does seem stupid.  If SVG goes under, I think him losing two prime RFAs in Monroe and KCP for nothing will look like a major mark against him.

Unfortunately, the two can't really be separated: the trade, along with the Galloway signing, led to KCP being ousted.  The entanglement makes assessment tougher.  

We don't know quite how things unfolded, but I suspect the Avery Bradley opportunity was just sprung on SVG, and he acted opportunistically.  Not much planning to be done there, with other teams competing for Bradley, and Boston needing to move quickly.

What I continue to find suspect, and what did involve having plenty of time to plan, is the Galloway signing for a boatload of cash.  In isolation, I like the signing.  He'll contribute, helping to transform us (along with Kennard and Bradley) into a decent shooting team.  If it were a Euro soccer transfer, where you just add players without backlash, I'd be in favor, although I'd question how much was spent.  But who really care about billionaires spending money?  In the NBA though, with its complex cap, it's a different story.  Galloway strikes me as a guy who could have been signed a lot later, for a lot less.   That move already put the squeeze on KCP in a big way.  If it hadn't been for the Galloway signing, we might be talking today about whether KCP and Avery could co-exist, whether KCP could be signed to a reasonable deal, whether a sign-and-trade was available.  So that's the move that troubles me, especially in its timing.

On the whole, I'm happy with how things have unfolded, including Summer League developments and a signing there.  There's more space to integrate the youngsters.  I find the team much more exciting as it moves back into Detroit than it was a couple of weeks ago.  

Sparma it is always nice to at least get something for players that management and the press have built up during their rookie contracts to the fan base. As far as Monroe is concerned maybe waiting too long to see if Andre and Greg could work together well was a mistake. Monroe, Smith and Drummond was supposed to be the greatest thing since sliced bread but nobody wanted or could play defense. I guess Smith was the best defender by a long shot.  Still I get it that the coaching staff took a wait and see approach because it does take time for players to bond and trust each other. One thing both Monroe and Drummond have in common which is still scary for me concerning Drummond is their lack of interest in ever becoming respectable defenders. I think that Monroe played better defense in the playoffs this season for the Bucks effort wise than he has ever done in his life. He was forced to play harder on that end because the coach and his teammates because of the great effort they gave.  

The KCP thing surprises me in only one area and that is how many back seat drivers have weighed in on this player who is no longer a Piston. There is no doubt that SVG had every intention of signing Pope but Pope's agent is a tough guy to deal with. He expects everyone to bend over and submit to his wishes. As Zeke said on NBA TV recently in a documentary about Pope's agent, that he might be the most powerful person now in the NBA. He has Labron and so many of the super athletes. One must be rational and I have new found respect for Stan Van Gundy and what he ended up doing to place the Piston franchise health above all the other nonsense. Most likely SVG had an edge before signing Galloway knowing that Danny Ainge would deal Bradley. He goes ahead and over pays for Galloway which tells Pope's agent the offer is off the table. How shocking that must have been at the time for Pope. He had the super agent that nobody says no to and now he still might get a super deal but it wasn't as easy as his agent might have let on. I know all about KCP's defects as many do after watching him and pulling for him for so long over his rookie contract. Maybe he can overcome all of those defects and become an All Star type player. But SVG already has been burnt by Andre Drummond who tanked after signing that huge contract. SVG also knew of Andre's defensive weaknessess and his questionable basketball IQ. But SVG didn't know about Andre Drummond's HEART. He found out last season in a big way. Drummond just wasn't coachable which has been his trademark that has followed him for a long time. His effort or heart just wasn't showing on the basketball court especially for the last half of last season. "NOT ENGAGED" is another coaching term for "Absence of HEART.  SVG will have to deal with this again this coming season too. Our head coach knows of KCP's problems with his basketball IQ, ball handling, passing, inability to use screens or have quick recognition reaction in basketball situations. Stan knew that KCP doesn't have issues with HEART like Andre. But why in hell would any GM give KCP a max or near max contract based on what he has done if the person in charge places the health of the franchise first? What in hell was wrong with the offer Stan made to Pope? To me looking around the league at other talented players, the $80 mil contract offer was very good for KCP. My guess is that SVG and his staff had drawn a line in the sand so to speak and were not going to exceed that figure regardless of the disappointment that would come from Pope's fan base if KCP took another offer. What ended up happening is one fantastic moment for the Detroit Pistons. This franchise has received an incredible stroke of luck is getting Avery Bradley. There are a lot of disappointed Boston fans now because Avery was perhaps the most popular player on the Celtic team. What Bradley did to protect Thomas on the defensive end was amazing. He was everywhere helping out his teammates on defense while defending the best backcourt opponent every game. Pope also has had that role at times with the Pistons too but he was not as effective defending top tier guards. The effort was there like Bradley's effort but Avery gets deflections and anticipates like few modern NBA players.

My concern still lies with the current top two point guards that dominate the basketball so much. I liked the way Pierre Jackson ran the Piston summer league team. He sees the court well, passes well, and is so quick at hitting the openings. And he plays tough defense too. SVG cannot afford to allow R. Jackson and I. Smith to dominate the ball as much and he must know it. So I expect a new offensive look.  And Avery Bradley is the best player on the Piston team now and will lead the team. It is not Reggie Jackson in his prime even or Andre Drummond God forbid who will have the voice of the team. Bradley is a no nonsense hard nosed perfectionist who has studied all the great players and developed some of their work habits. He will force some of our half committed players to perform with passion or call them out. This kind of leadership will really help players like Stanley Johnson, Luke Kennard and Henry Ellenson as well as Harris and Leuer. Drummond better come to training camp in shape this time around or maybe just maybe Moreland will kick his butt and Drummond will be the third string center. The Detroit Pistons have weak spots on their roster at the point guard position, center,  and power forward positions. All three of those positions are currently being filled with below average defenders. Opponents will continue to attack Andre Drummond & Boban which could open up minutes for Moreland. Opponents will still dominate Reggie Jackson and Ish Smith unless SVG can hide them or play the new 3rd options Galloway or Kennard. As for power forwards,  Leuer showed last season that he just cannot guard many power forwards especially starting caliber power forwards in the NBA. Hopefully he has worked more with weights and conditioning over the summer and comes back stronger. Leuer doesn't have the problem with lack of HEART that Drummond possesses. And Leuer has a much higher basketball IQ than Drummond. Unless there is another trade, Leuer has to come through and play 30% better next season. Ellenson will now get his minutes but his defense makes him a liability for the 2nd unit too but I have no doubt that in the end he will be a very good two way player for the Pistons.

I just hope SVG can sign Bradley to a new deal. Go Pistons!
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Further ruminations/ Oracle

Post  Sparma on Sat Jul 08, 2017 10:04 pm

I'll settle then for it sounded critical to me, in comparison with other assessments I've read.

Beyond that, there's a deep issue which I hesitate to raise. You appear to view yourself as (generally) a purveyor of facts and evidence, whose connecting logical analysis results in a series of comments. That's not how I see you, nor myself for that matter. I side more with BallinD who wrote (as I recall) of the valuable takes we all have, which contribute to the richness of the forum. No doubt we all seek to engage with the facts as we offer our interpretations.

With BallinD, I'm inclined to think "logic" isn't ordinarily the applicable term here, at least not if deductive logic is meant. We might be able to agree that, as forumites, we routinely attempt to make inductive inferences, that we seek to infer to the best explanation of the "evidence." Unfortunately, for us forumites that "evidence" (eg the inner workings of organizations) is often shielded from us. In my own case, to aggravate matters, I only watch bits of the action, in addition to reading and pondering the stats so that my observation data are far more limited than yours.

For instance, you write: "You don't ship out both the heart and soul(Morris & KCP) of the team to no effect., that's not arguable. Can you make up for it? Yes, and it may be easy or hard, the point is that we don't know."

Comments: Is "heart and soul" factual? In what sense? Through quantifiable evidence? That case seems hard to make for Morris, particularly. Is the assertion then not directly, or only, about numbers that he delivers, but (also) about leadership qualities? It strikes me that we're well beyond the factual realm there. For instance, presumably a big example of his leadership would be the talk/ confrontation once Reggie came back. But SVG responded: Team meeting, my a... And Murph took him to task as a locker room problem. Your assertion may be right, but, if so, if looks like an inference to the best explanation to me, not like a fact.

But maybe that was a throwaway line. They traded Morris for Bradley & a pick, so I can't see how that's "to no effect."

The bigger claim seems to concern KCP, and I've already expressed partial agreement.
But is it a factual statement? Hard to see how.

You mention a blunder. Maybe here the underlying fact is thought to be: [a] Young NBA players with KCP's level of performance rarely leave their teams with no return as RFAs. We could quibble here (eg Hardaway just left for nothing, Monroe left the year after being RFA), but something close to that seems to be a case.

So, the conclusion that you appear to be offering as beyond dispute is something like: Based on fact [a], an NBA front office commits a blunder it allows a player of KCP's quality and in his situation to leave without compensation.

Taken in isolation, I'm inclined to agree with this fact and the conclusion.

But the fact doesn't occur in isolation. You mention that we don't know. No doubt. That's partly what necessitates making uncertain/ speculative inferences. We're continually in that situation as forumites, but on several counts the front office faces a comparable level of uncertainty, eg, about whether Avery will resign. There are some "facts" that are knowable now: recent maneuvers have improved the shooting at (off) guard, defense has been upgraded, some space has been created to integrate young players, the cap situation is more favorable presently than it would have been if KCP had been resigned for 20+ mil. Even these "facts" can be drawn into question, as you showed by citing defensive numbers concerning Bradley. My take is that it isn't until more evidence is in, until we have a fuller sense of the ramifications of letting KCP go (specifically, will Bradley stay long term?), that we can conclude that a blunder was committed in this specific case.

Oracle wrote:What I said wasn't being critical, I stated a lot of facts and some small analysis of those facts. I want to be excited, but I don't have anything to be excited about yet, and here's why.

The Physics of the Current State:
You can say a lot about the moves made, but you simply can't change the physics, which is what I see. You don't ship out both the heart and soul(Morris & KCP) of the team to no effect., that's not arguable. Can you make up for it? Yes, and it may be easy or hard, the point is that we don't know.

You don't ship out the combined scoring, defense, assists, chemistry and SIZE of those two and tell me it's replaced by the guys we brought in.

In short, you can call the moves a good start, but it's incomplete, and that is my point, I don't know how to judge this team yet until I get more information.

Look, I'm a Piston fan more than any individual, they can field a group of 12 year old girls, three of them on crutches and I'll still want them to win, but I will look at things before I make decisions on how many games we can win.

What happened with KCP: This one is easy to figure but you can't nail down who the bad guy is. Well over a year ago, we knew KCP was going to get paid, and we knew the number. Gores said we would go over the CAP to sign him, which is easy to say until you actually have to go over the CAP to sign a non-max worthy player.

One of either Gores or SVG changed their mind and hoped KCP would take a lesser offer. That confidence grew when events delayed the offer that KCP will eventually get, so they tried 16M/yr with 5 years of security, which I thought was a fair deal, but obviously it conflicted with the Pistons words, and that never ends well.

Shocked that their ploy didn't work, especially since they intentionally put themselves in a position to make KCP think that 16M was the best they could do, they went hunting for a backup situation, unfortunately Morris got caught up in this failed Palace intrigue. Make no mistake about it, they wanted to keep KCP, and were as shocked as anyone that he didn't fold.

This was a blunder of major proportions! Any GM with a couple of years to plan for this that loses a VALUABLE player for nothing, and value is defined, not by what anybody thinks, but what teams will give you for a player, this was an epic franchise altering mistake. SVG blew an opportunity to get 20M of assets for this franchise? WTF!!!

That's not critical, it's factual and any GM, including SVG will tell you he blew it!

What's the Plan:
But the difference of me being excited before was that SVG had a well defined plan, like it, love, or hate it, it was a plan that the media and fans bought in to. Last year the plan didn't work out so well, but if we're going to dump that plan for another plan, then what the hell is is.

How people can get excited about a trip when you don't know where you're going, doesn't work well for me, obviously some don't care, or see a plan even if SVG hasn't stated it(even he doesn't likely know now).

One other thing that bothers me:
I've heard this EVERY SVG season: "We needed shooters and we got one in Insert Player Here"

But something strange ALWAYS happens to those shooters... They get worse, a lot worse! If this was true once in awhile, it might be a fluke, but there isn't one case I can think of where the "shooter" got better or did as well, but in every case got worse and never got better again.

At some point, you have to look at other reasons, and while I have no answers, I'm just putting that out there.
Sparma wrote:I think it's fair to say that, among forumites, you've had the most positive take on the team in recent times.  I'm surprised then that you have about the most negative take on yesterday's events that I've encountered, whether among forumites or national commentators.  Maybe the two are related?  

If I could just keep two things separate my assessment would be clear:

a) the trade was excellent, sweetened by the inclusion of the 2nd rounder. - As I stated above, excellent can't be determined yet, IMO, the right direction yes.

b) the loss of KCP for nothing does seem stupid.  If SVG goes under, I think him losing two prime RFAs in Monroe and KCP for nothing will look like a major mark against him.

Unfortunately, the two can't really be separated: the trade, along with the Galloway signing, led to KCP being ousted.  The entanglement makes assessment tougher.  Losing KCP for nothing is a blunder no GM should EVER make, it's almost impossible to do in this situation, but SVG did it. 

We don't know quite how things unfolded, but I suspect the Avery Bradley opportunity was just sprung on SVG, and he acted opportunistically.  Not much planning to be done there, with other teams competing for Bradley, and Boston needing to move quickly. You got some of that wrong, the Celtics were having a HARD time moving Bradley until a sucker, er., SVG showed up. The sucker comment is a joke because SVG had a need and was desperate for a defender that... he can use like KCP, youngsters beware!

What I continue to find suspect, and what did involve having plenty of time to plan, is the Galloway signing for a boatload of cash.  In isolation, I like the signing.  He'll contribute, helping to transform us (along with Kennard and Bradley) into a decent shooting team.  If it were a Euro soccer transfer, where you just add players without backlash, I'd be in favor, although I'd question how much was spent.  But who really care about billionaires spending money?  In the NBA though, with its complex cap, it's a different story.  Galloway strikes me as a guy who could have been signed a lot later, for a lot less.   That move already put the squeeze on KCP in a big way.  If it hadn't been for the Galloway signing, we might be talking today about whether KCP and Avery could co-exist, whether KCP could be signed to a reasonable deal, whether a sign-and-trade was available.  So that's the move that troubles me, especially in its timing. That's the move that didn't bother me at first, but now I know why it happened. KCP would not move off his number, so SVG/Gores, who knows had to do something else.

On the whole, I'm happy with how things have unfolded, including Summer League developments and a signing there.  There's more space to integrate the youngsters.  I find the team much more exciting as it moves back into Detroit than it was a couple of weeks ago.  I don't have a problem with where we are, pending other moves to make it all make sense, but excited? I'm not there yet, mostly because I need more information so that I can see how we either win or develop for the future. There doesn't appear to be a PLAN.
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Some sobering facts about KCP that're being overlooked

Post  deusXango on Sat Jul 08, 2017 9:28 pm

KCP and Monroe were two different animals altogether. "The Moose" didn't want to be a Piston for any amount, so he signed the QA that Falk suggested, as a means of getting out of Detroit. KCP wanted all he could get out of Detroit, after watching SVG throw money around like a drunken dope man in the club making it rain. He was made a fair offer, which he rejected. He didn't even cast the illusion of being worth $20+ million like Reggie (who didn't get it) or Drummond (who's been vilified since signing). I hate that KCP supporters continually mix apples in with the oranges.

Oracle
, why do you insist on stating that SVG blew $20 million in assets by not signing KCP? Did I misunderstand you? If I did I apologize. If Drummonds $25 million is an asset, or Reggie's $16 million is an asset, or Leuer's $10.5 is an asset, then these are unwanted (unless they're for pennies on the dollar) assets! Perhaps Gores and Bower told SVG "enough is enough!!"

I'd love for KCP to get paid as much as the next Pistons fan, but going from $3.5 million a year to a max contract, with what he's proven over the last four years, is something beyond "getting paid," it's robbery. I seriously doubt the Nets are willing to be robbery victims....their first choice was a much more productive player than KCP and the team holding his rights chose to match their offer, but the team holding the rights to KCP set the market (5 years $80 million) for him. Why would the Nets pay the max to their 2nd choice? What does KCP have going for himself to just wrestle what he wants from a pro franchise?
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Post  Oracle on Sat Jul 08, 2017 7:17 pm

What I said wasn't being critical, I stated a lot of facts and some small analysis of those facts. I want to be excited, but I don't have anything to be excited about yet, and here's why.

The Physics of the Current State:
You can say a lot about the moves made, but you simply can't change the physics, which is what I see. You don't ship out both the heart and soul(Morris & KCP) of the team to no effect., that's not arguable. Can you make up for it? Yes, and it may be easy or hard, the point is that we don't know.

You don't ship out the combined scoring, defense, assists, chemistry and SIZE of those two and tell me it's replaced by the guys we brought in.

In short, you can call the moves a good start, but it's incomplete, and that is my point, I don't know how to judge this team yet until I get more information.

Look, I'm a Piston fan more than any individual, they can field a group of 12 year old girls, three of them on crutches and I'll still want them to win, but I will look at things before I make decisions on how many games we can win.

What happened with KCP: This one is easy to figure but you can't nail down who the bad guy is. Well over a year ago, we knew KCP was going to get paid, and we knew the number. Gores said we would go over the CAP to sign him, which is easy to say until you actually have to go over the CAP to sign a non-max worthy player.

One of either Gores or SVG changed their mind and hoped KCP would take a lesser offer. That confidence grew when events delayed the offer that KCP will eventually get, so they tried 16M/yr with 5 years of security, which I thought was a fair deal, but obviously it conflicted with the Pistons words, and that never ends well.

Shocked that their ploy didn't work, especially since they intentionally put themselves in a position to make KCP think that 16M was the best they could do, they went hunting for a backup situation, unfortunately Morris got caught up in this failed Palace intrigue. Make no mistake about it, they wanted to keep KCP, and were as shocked as anyone that he didn't fold.

This was a blunder of major proportions! Any GM with a couple of years to plan for this that loses a VALUABLE player for nothing, and value is defined, not by what anybody thinks, but what teams will give you for a player, this was an epic franchise altering mistake. SVG blew an opportunity to get 20M of assets for this franchise? WTF!!!

That's not critical, it's factual and any GM, including SVG will tell you he blew it!

What's the Plan:
But the difference of me being excited before was that SVG had a well defined plan, like it, love, or hate it, it was a plan that the media and fans bought in to. Last year the plan didn't work out so well, but if we're going to dump that plan for another plan, then what the hell is is.

How people can get excited about a trip when you don't know where you're going, doesn't work well for me, obviously some don't care, or see a plan even if SVG hasn't stated it(even he doesn't likely know now).

One other thing that bothers me:
I've heard this EVERY SVG season: "We needed shooters and we got one in Insert Player Here"

But something strange ALWAYS happens to those shooters... They get worse, a lot worse! If this was true once in awhile, it might be a fluke, but there isn't one case I can think of where the "shooter" got better or did as well, but in every case got worse and never got better again.

At some point, you have to look at other reasons, and while I have no answers, I'm just putting that out there.
Sparma wrote:I think it's fair to say that, among forumites, you've had the most positive take on the team in recent times.  I'm surprised then that you have about the most negative take on yesterday's events that I've encountered, whether among forumites or national commentators.  Maybe the two are related?  

If I could just keep two things separate my assessment would be clear:

a) the trade was excellent, sweetened by the inclusion of the 2nd rounder. - As I stated above, excellent can't be determined yet, IMO, the right direction yes.

b) the loss of KCP for nothing does seem stupid.  If SVG goes under, I think him losing two prime RFAs in Monroe and KCP for nothing will look like a major mark against him.

Unfortunately, the two can't really be separated: the trade, along with the Galloway signing, led to KCP being ousted.  The entanglement makes assessment tougher.  Losing KCP for nothing is a blunder no GM should EVER make, it's almost impossible to do in this situation, but SVG did it. 

We don't know quite how things unfolded, but I suspect the Avery Bradley opportunity was just sprung on SVG, and he acted opportunistically.  Not much planning to be done there, with other teams competing for Bradley, and Boston needing to move quickly. You got some of that wrong, the Celtics were having a HARD time moving Bradley until a sucker, er., SVG showed up. The sucker comment is a joke because SVG had a need and was desperate for a defender that... he can use like KCP, youngsters beware!

What I continue to find suspect, and what did involve having plenty of time to plan, is the Galloway signing for a boatload of cash.  In isolation, I like the signing.  He'll contribute, helping to transform us (along with Kennard and Bradley) into a decent shooting team.  If it were a Euro soccer transfer, where you just add players without backlash, I'd be in favor, although I'd question how much was spent.  But who really care about billionaires spending money?  In the NBA though, with its complex cap, it's a different story.  Galloway strikes me as a guy who could have been signed a lot later, for a lot less.   That move already put the squeeze on KCP in a big way.  If it hadn't been for the Galloway signing, we might be talking today about whether KCP and Avery could co-exist, whether KCP could be signed to a reasonable deal, whether a sign-and-trade was available.  So that's the move that troubles me, especially in its timing. That's the move that didn't bother me at first, but now I know why it happened. KCP would not move off his number, so SVG/Gores, who knows had to do something else.

On the whole, I'm happy with how things have unfolded, including Summer League developments and a signing there.  There's more space to integrate the youngsters.  I find the team much more exciting as it moves back into Detroit than it was a couple of weeks ago.  I don't have a problem with where we are, pending other moves to make it all make sense, but excited? I'm not there yet, mostly because I need more information so that I can see how we either win or develop for the future. There doesn't appear to be a PLAN.
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Re: FORUM

Post  cool breeze on Sat Jul 08, 2017 5:51 pm

Sparma wrote:I think it's fair to say that, among forumites, you've had the most positive take on the team in recent times.  I'm surprised then that you have about the most negative take on yesterday's events that I've encountered, whether among forumites or national commentators.  Maybe the two are related?  

If I could just keep two things separate my assessment would be clear:

a) the trade was excellent, sweetened by the inclusion of the 2nd rounder.

b) the loss of KCP for nothing does seem stupid.  If SVG goes under, I think him losing two prime RFAs in Monroe and KCP for nothing will look like a major mark against him.

Unfortunately, the two can't really be separated: the trade, along with the Galloway signing, led to KCP being ousted.  The entanglement makes assessment tougher.  

We don't know quite how things unfolded, but I suspect the Avery Bradley opportunity was just sprung on SVG, and he acted opportunistically.  Not much planning to be done there, with other teams competing for Bradley, and Boston needing to move quickly.

What I continue to find suspect, and what did involve having plenty of time to plan, is the Galloway signing for a boatload of cash.  In isolation, I like the signing.  He'll contribute, helping to transform us (along with Kennard and Bradley) into a decent shooting team.  If it were a Euro soccer transfer, where you just add players without backlash, I'd be in favor, although I'd question how much was spent.  But who really care about billionaires spending money?  In the NBA though, with its complex cap, it's a different story.  Galloway strikes me as a guy who could have been signed a lot later, for a lot less.   That move already put the squeeze on KCP in a big way.  If it hadn't been for the Galloway signing, we might be talking today about whether KCP and Avery could co-exist, whether KCP could be signed to a reasonable deal, whether a sign-and-trade was available.  So that's the move that troubles me, especially in its timing.

On the whole, I'm happy with how things have unfolded, including Summer League developments and a signing there.  There's more space to integrate the youngsters.  I find the team much more exciting as it moves back into Detroit than it was a couple of weeks ago.  

Sparma it is always nice to at least get something for players that management and the press have built up during their rookie contracts to the fan base. As far as Monroe is concerned maybe waiting too long to see if Andre and Greg could work together well was a mistake. Monroe, Smith and Drummond was supposed to be the greatest thing since sliced bread but nobody wanted or could play defense. I guess Smith was the best defender by a long shot. Still I get it that the coaching staff took a wait and see approach because it does take time for players to bond and trust each other. One thing both Monroe and Drummond have in common which is still scary for me concerning Drummond is their lack of interest in ever becoming respectable defenders. I think that Monroe played better defense in the playoffs this season for the Bucks effort wise than he has ever done in his life. He was forced to play harder on that end because the coach and his teammates because of the great effort they gave.

The KCP thing surprises me in only one area and that is how many back seat drivers have weighed in on this player who is no longer a Piston. There is no doubt that SVG had every intention of signing Pope but Pope's agent is a tough guy to deal with. He expects everyone to bend over and submit to his wishes. As Zeke said on NBA TV recently in a documentary about Pope's agent, that he might be the most powerful person now in the NBA. He has Labron and so many of the super athletes. One must be rational and I have new found respect for Stan Van Gundy and what he ended up doing to place the Piston franchise health above all the other nonsense. Most likely SVG had an edge before signing Galloway knowing that Danny Ainge would deal Bradley. He goes ahead and over pays for Galloway which tells Pope's agent the offer is off the table. How shocking that must have been at the time for Pope. He had the super agent that nobody says no to and now he still might get a super deal but it wasn't as easy as his agent might have let on. I know all about KCP's defects as many do after watching him and pulling for him for so long over his rookie contract. Maybe he can overcome all of those defects and become an All Star type player. But SVG already has been burnt by Andre Drummond who tanked after signing that huge contract. SVG also knew of Andre's defensive weaknessess and his questionable basketball IQ. But SVG didn't know about Andre Drummond's HEART. He found out last season in a big way. Drummond just wasn't coachable which has been his trademark that has followed him for a long time. His effort or heart just wasn't showing on the basketball court especially for the last half of last season. "NOT ENGAGED" is another coaching term for "Absence of HEART. SVG will have to deal with this again this coming season too. Our head coach knows of KCP's problems with his basketball IQ, ball handling, passing, inability to use screens or have quick recognition reaction in basketball situations. Stan knew that KCP doesn't have issues with HEART like Andre. But why in hell would any GM give KCP a max or near max contract based on what he has done if the person in charge places the health of the franchise first? What in hell was wrong with the offer Stan made to Pope? To me looking around the league at other talented players, the $80 mil contract offer was very good for KCP. My guess is that SVG and his staff had drawn a line in the sand so to speak and were not going to exceed that figure regardless of the disappointment that would come from Pope's fan base if KCP took another offer. What ended up happening is one fantastic moment for the Detroit Pistons. This franchise has received an incredible stroke of luck is getting Avery Bradley. There are a lot of disappointed Boston fans now because Avery was perhaps the most popular player on the Celtic team. What Bradley did to protect Thomas on the defensive end was amazing. He was everywhere helping out his teammates on defense while defending the best backcourt opponent every game. Pope also has had that role at times with the Pistons too but he was not as effective defending top tier guards. The effort was there like Bradley's effort but Avery gets deflections and anticipates like few modern NBA players.

My concern still lies with the current top two point guards that dominate the basketball so much. I liked the way Pierre Jackson ran the Piston summer league team. He sees the court well, passes well, and is so quick at hitting the openings. And he plays tough defense too. SVG cannot afford to allow R. Jackson and I. Smith to dominate the ball as much and he must know it. So I expect a new offensive look. And Avery Bradley is the best player on the Piston team now and will lead the team. It is not Reggie Jackson in his prime even or Andre Drummond God forbid who will have the voice of the team. Bradley is a no nonsense hard nosed perfectionist who has studied all the great players and developed some of their work habits. He will force some of our half committed players to perform with passion or call them out. This kind of leadership will really help players like Stanley Johnson, Luke Kennard and Henry Ellenson as well as Harris and Leuer. Drummond better come to training camp in shape this time around or maybe just maybe Moreland will kick his butt and Drummond will be the third string center. The Detroit Pistons have weak spots on their roster at the point guard position, center,  and power forward positions. All three of those positions are currently being filled with below average defenders. Opponents will continue to attack Andre Drummond & Boban which could open up minutes for Moreland. Opponents will still dominate Reggie Jackson and Ish Smith unless SVG can hide them or play the new 3rd options Galloway or Kennard. As for power forwards, Leuer showed last season that he just cannot guard many power forwards especially starting caliber power forwards in the NBA. Hopefully he has worked more with weights and conditioning over the summer and comes back stronger. Leuer doesn't have the problem with lack of HEART that Drummond possesses. And Leuer has a much higher basketball IQ than Drummond. Unless there is another trade, Leuer has to come through and play 30% better next season. Ellenson will now get his minutes but his defense makes him a liability for the 2nd unit too but I have no doubt that in the end he will be a very good two way player for the Pistons.

I just hope SVG can sign Bradley to a new deal. Go Pistons!

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A critical Oracle?

Post  Sparma on Sat Jul 08, 2017 5:24 pm

I thought the stuff that follows below was pretty critical.  And there's more of that sort in earlier posts.  Is it negative?  At least relative to the encomiums of others, including myself, it seems to be.  I'm not aware of anyone posting so critically about the trade and KCP leaving.  And you may prove to be right in being so skeptical.

I was being more curious than critical in making that remark.  For one thing, I agree that we just don't know how it's going to turn out.  If Avery's a rental it will look very different than he stays and is a long term star and pillar.  As I've thought about the whole deal (cap-Avery-Morris-pick-KCP-rotation ramifications-Galloway-alternative scenarios, also in the past) I've come to see how complicated and uncertain the whole thing is, and I've backed away from my initial ecstasy.  I still like the transformation of the past few weeks on the whole.

In general, if someone really likes how things are going, they're more apt to be critical of change than someone who's really negative about the initial situation.  I wondered if that might be what was going.  Other than that, I was a bit confused.  Maybe I'm misreading.

Oracle

"Nobody knows how this will play out for the Pistons, SVG has blundered and lost all of the investment in the top FA on the market and loses him for NOTHING... that's just plain stupid.

KCP will have a ton of offers to choose from, and he only represented under 3M on our books, so we don't gain much and lose a lot if SVG only had the sense to get a S&T done by not pissing people off, or had traded KCP earlier. This is a self inflicted wound to the franchise that didn't need to go down like this(smelling of Moose?).

But isn't this the history of SVG? He pissed off people in Miami, went to Orlando and pissed off Howard, came here and pissed off Monroe and now KCP.

The reason Bradley bothers me is that I don't know how much of his success is due to the coach & system and how much is player. Also, since Boston learned the lesson of having a short SG, we act like we need to learn the same damn lesson? Boston saved very little net money getting rid of him, they could have done it in other ways, but the picked the short guy on purpose.

Bradley may be just a rental, but if he is, our CAP situation only gets worse, and he'll be asking for more than KCP next season... I'm struggling to see the short or long term here!"
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Sparma

Post  Oracle on Sat Jul 08, 2017 5:04 pm

I have a fuller answer to your post, which I can't give right now because of "Honey Do's", but I do have one question, and it's in response to this.

Sparma wrote:I'm surprised then that you have about the most negative take on yesterday's events that I've encountered, whether among forumites or national commentators. Maybe the two are related?
What did I say that was negative?
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KCP/ Oracle

Post  Sparma on Sat Jul 08, 2017 1:12 pm

I think it's fair to say that, among forumites, you've had the most positive take on the team in recent times. I'm surprised then that you have about the most negative take on yesterday's events that I've encountered, whether among forumites or national commentators. Maybe the two are related?

If I could just keep two things separate my assessment would be clear:

a) the trade was excellent, sweetened by the inclusion of the 2nd rounder.

b) the loss of KCP for nothing does seem stupid. If SVG goes under, I think him losing two prime RFAs in Monroe and KCP for nothing will look like a major mark against him.

Unfortunately, the two can't really be separated: the trade, along with the Galloway signing, led to KCP being ousted. The entanglement makes assessment tougher.

We don't know quite how things unfolded, but I suspect the Avery Bradley opportunity was just sprung on SVG, and he acted opportunistically. Not much planning to be done there, with other teams competing for Bradley, and Boston needing to move quickly.

What I continue to find suspect, and what did involve having plenty of time to plan, is the Galloway signing for a boatload of cash. In isolation, I like the signing. He'll contribute, helping to transform us (along with Kennard and Bradley) into a decent shooting team. If it were a Euro soccer transfer, where you just add players without backlash, I'd be in favor, although I'd question how much was spent. But who really care about billionaires spending money? In the NBA though, with its complex cap, it's a different story. Galloway strikes me as a guy who could have been signed a lot later, for a lot less. That move already put the squeeze on KCP in a big way. If it hadn't been for the Galloway signing, we might be talking today about whether KCP and Avery could co-exist, whether KCP could be signed to a reasonable deal, whether a sign-and-trade was available. So that's the move that troubles me, especially in its timing.

On the whole, I'm happy with how things have unfolded, including Summer League developments and a signing there. There's more space to integrate the youngsters. I find the team much more exciting as it moves back into Detroit than it was a couple of weeks ago.
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What happened? Did lightening strike?

Post  deusXango on Sat Jul 08, 2017 12:07 pm

WOW! I turn my back on my laptop, for a minute, and all hell breaks loose. Pass the crow and pepper. SVG has shown some imagination and cojones in replacing KCP with a better option at SG; the door has been opened for our young'uns to develop on the pro floor, instead of bouncing around in the Gatorade League...play against the best if you want to be one of the best! I've always said SVG was a better president than coach and I still stand by that. This latest cold-blooded, wheeling and dealing, activity to improve on an untenable CAP situation the Pistons were faced with has earned my greatest respect. Big ups SVG!

KCP played his heart out (to the best of his limited abilities) and IMO was a great guy who I wish nothing but the best for, but it was a classic case of the wrong place at the wrong time, as far as his contract demands went. I don't know what's true about lowballing, but I do know that the PT he consistently ate up would've stood in the way of Kennard's development, and the absence of Morris opens the door for Johnson to get more PT is true. Stanley Johnson sort of reminds me of Marcus Smart the way he plays hard-nosed defense...relentless on defense and capable of catching fire offensively (he never got the PT for fans to see it happen); Bradley and Johnson will more than makeup for whatever defensive shortcomings Harris or Kennard will present in the rotation. Plain and simple, we got better and saved money!

For the Nervous Nellies, Avery Bradley hasn't even suited up for us, so why are we so eager to have him leave next year because he's to be viewed as a "one year rental?" If the negativity could be suspended for one instant, what if he falls in love with the "New Detroit" and more fans than not takes him into their embrace; what if there is a stronger bonding with his Pistons teammates than what he experienced in Boston and he decides to resign in Detroit next year? KCP is gone, let's give our newest Piston a warm welcome and pull for him in every way possible. I'm going to miss Morris too, but Boston may miss him also...the legal ramifications MM is involved in are yet to be determined; I hope they're in his favor, but.....Cold-blooded Stan, looking up the road.

"We need a star," is the mantra around here, but where do we need that star to be most effective? IMHO it's at the PF spot. If Ellenson is going to play behind someone, let that someone be a helluva lot better than Leuer. A rim protector, shot blocker, mean ass intimidator, is what we need. Drummond ain't gonna do it. Who's out there that can come close to what we need? Awww, hell no, not Eric Moreland! He's not an offensive threat. Neither was Rick Mahorn. "Sheed" Wallace spoiled the contemporary basketball viewer, but we forget "Big Ben" Wallace wasn't an offensive threat either. The 2004 Pistons weren't a cookie cutter version of the Bad Boys, but they were champions in their own right; allow a team dynamic to emerge. We've got enough scorers for right now, but not enough defenders. One basketball. If Moreland wasn't over-hyped on Summer League adrenaline, and can bring it ever night (15-20 minutes is plenty), I'm thinking about a defensive pacesetter to start 1st and 3rd quarters. What have we got to loose? We're a historical lottery team for the last decade, damn near.

Now if only SVG begins to coach like he's been known to wheel and deal, or perhaps hire a coach for awhile. These young coaches, of todays NBA, are running circles around him and every knowledgeable fan knows it. Meanwhile, my hat's off to you Mr. Stanley Van Gundy, for having brought us this far; we're better off than we've been in quite some time.
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Have A nice career KCP and good luck to you and your family

Post  Phil1980boy on Sat Jul 08, 2017 3:33 am


I thank Pope for his hard work and hard play over the past 4 years. I wish him and his family good luck. I hope some STUPID team out there gives him A SUPER MAX CONTRACT!

But I'm very happy that Detroit will not be that stupid team today.

Stan was losing me really fast and after this trade I'm looking forward to see what Stan and Jeff can do next.

I hate to see Morris go but It's time to Give Stanley Johnson the green light. It's time!

It's time for this team to get younger and better. It's time to dump some guys and look forward to the future for the Detroit Pistons.
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I mostly agree...

Post  Oracle on Sat Jul 08, 2017 12:46 am

Sparma wrote:I do agree that Avery's rebounds are bound to go down with the Pistons, with Drummond around.  Still, I'm going to give it up for a guy of his height averaging over six.  

btw, I looked up his height at draft time without shoes.  Looks like 6'2'', taller than I'd thought.  And with a 6ft 7 1/4 wingspan, so take that Kennard! LOL, I also can't resist a good joke, LOL.

It took a while, but I figured out that Detroit will be picking up the 2nd rounder, rather than giving it up.  Even better. They didn't make that clear in earlier reports, I just assumed it because the salaries didn't match well enough.

Maybe Stan will become known as Slick Stan.  I don't think he's been lying exactly, at least in his own mind, but he's super opportunistic.  If they really did offer 80 for 5, I feel they made a good faith offer.  The Galloway signing for so much may have been the shakiest SVG action, maybe already signalling a backing away from what had been said about/ to KCP during the season.  Good point, Oracle, that players tend to see patterns.  Also, a good point that that may not matter much in the D given the limited FA draw (as opposed to, say, a NY GM developing a bad rep with players). They did that offer and KCP's camp looked at it as low balling him, so they turned it down cold, and likely were insulted so they wouldn't want to work with SVG on a S&T. 

Right now it doesn't feel like it, but the worst part of this upheaval will likely be getting nothing for KCP.  I guess the quick timing just didn't permit even angling for a sign and trade.  Had it been possible, what I would have loved would have been offering KCP a fair deal during the season, being turned down, then getting a good return for him at the trading deadline (a first rounder, at least), then doing today's trade.  Just couldn't happen that way, I guess.  One thing I've always liked about this regime is that they're decisive and move quickly, having done all their homework in advance, whereas later Joe tended to dither ("We didn't find anything that would improve us."). That is the worst part, and blows any theory in my mind about them thinking any of this through. This is not the behavior of foresight and planning, but a panic recognition that they couldn't get KCP at the price they wanted and panic set in. If this was planned, they would have renounced him on day one.

Oracle wrote:
Sparma wrote:One more response. You mention loss of height as a concern, and I agree. But even, or especially, if Bradley's real height is a hair above 6 ft, he's an incredible rebounder for his height with more than 6 bounds per game (6.1). That's nearly double the rebounding average of the taller KCP (3.3). 
I don't know if that's accurate.

He played with a PG that is 5'8 and a team that gets regularly out rebounded, the numbers are deceiving. Also, it's a question of available rebounds.

If more rebounds are available, you will get more, on our team the rebounds are much more scarce as Drummond sucks up quite a few and since we're a BIGGER team, the smaller players don't see or need to rebound as much.

BTW, this move by Ainge was NOT about the money, he wanted to get bigger, which is why I was taken aback that we would let Morris go, but it also depends on who gets the start, or more importantly, who gets the most minutes. I still hope Stanley steps up and takes the starting position.

But good news, SVG who was the dumbest guy on the planet a day ago, is now hailed as someone that you can have total faith in... talk about total flip flopping, I've seen fish on the deck that weren't that good!
Nobody knows how this will play out for the Pistons, SVG has blundered and lost all of the investment in the top FA on the market and loses him for NOTHING... that's just plain stupid.

KCP will have a ton of offers to choose from, and he only represented under 3M on our books, so we don't gain much and lose a lot if SVG only had the sense to get a S&T done by not pissing people off, or had traded KCP earlier. This is a self inflicted wound to the franchise that didn't need to go down like this(smelling of Moose?).

But isn't this the history of SVG? He pissed off people in Miami, went to Orlando and pissed off Howard, came here and pissed off Monroe and now KCP.

The reason Bradley bothers me is that I don't know how much of his success is due to the coach & system and how much is player. Also, since Boston learned the lesson of having a short SG, we act like we need to learn the same damn lesson? Boston saved very little net money getting rid of him, they could have done it in other ways, but the picked the short guy on purpose.

Bradley may be just a rental, but if he is, our CAP situation only gets worse, and he'll be asking for more than KCP next season... I'm struggling to see the short or long term here!
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Good trade

Post  Go Stones! on Sat Jul 08, 2017 12:45 am

A few years ago SVG traded a 2020 2nd round pick for Morris, Bullock and Granger. Now he trades Morris and 2nd pick for Bradley. When the dust settles, SVG traded a second round draft pick for Bradley! I'm out like Costanza!
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More KCP

Post  Sparma on Sat Jul 08, 2017 12:02 am

I do agree that Avery's rebounds are bound to go down with the Pistons, with Drummond around.  Still, I'm going to give it up for a guy of his height averaging over six.  

btw, I looked up his height at draft time without shoes.  Looks like 6'2'', taller than I'd thought.  And with a 6ft 7 1/4 wingspan, so take that Kennard!

It took a while, but I figured out that Detroit will be picking up the 2nd rounder, rather than giving it up.  Even better.

Maybe Stan will become known as Slick Stan.  I don't think he's been lying exactly, at least in his own mind, but he's super opportunistic.  If they really did offer 80 for 5, I feel they made a good faith offer.  The Galloway signing for so much may have been the shakiest SVG action, maybe already signalling a backing away from what had been said about/ to KCP during the season.  Good point, Oracle, that players tend to see patterns.  Also, a good point that that may not matter much in the D given the limited FA draw (as opposed to, say, a NY GM developing a bad rep with players).

Right now it doesn't feel like it, but the worst part of this upheaval will likely be getting nothing for KCP.  I guess the quick timing just didn't permit even angling for a sign and trade.  Had it been possible, what I would have loved would have been offering KCP a fair deal during the season, being turned down, then getting a good return for him at the trading deadline (a first rounder, at least), then doing today's trade.  Just couldn't happen that way, I guess.  One thing I've always liked about this regime is that they're decisive and move quickly, having done all their homework in advance, whereas later Joe tended to dither ("We didn't find anything that would improve us.").

Oracle wrote:
Sparma wrote:One more response. You mention loss of height as a concern, and I agree. But even, or especially, if Bradley's real height is a hair above 6 ft, he's an incredible rebounder for his height with more than 6 bounds per game (6.1). That's nearly double the rebounding average of the taller KCP (3.3). 
I don't know if that's accurate.

He played with a PG that is 5'8 and a team that gets regularly out rebounded, the numbers are deceiving. Also, it's a question of available rebounds.

If more rebounds are available, you will get more, on our team the rebounds are much more scarce as Drummond sucks up quite a few and since we're a BIGGER team, the smaller players don't see or need to rebound as much.

BTW, this move by Ainge was NOT about the money, he wanted to get bigger, which is why I was taken aback that we would let Morris go, but it also depends on who gets the start, or more importantly, who gets the most minutes. I still hope Stanley steps up and takes the starting position.

But good news, SVG who was the dumbest guy on the planet a day ago, is now hailed as someone that you can have total faith in... talk about total flip flopping, I've seen fish on the deck that weren't that good!
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Sparma

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Sparma

Post  Oracle on Fri Jul 07, 2017 11:18 pm

Sparma wrote:One more response. You mention loss of height as a concern, and I agree. But even, or especially, if Bradley's real height is a hair above 6 ft, he's an incredible rebounder for his height with more than 6 bounds per game (6.1). That's nearly double the rebounding average of the taller KCP (3.3). 
I don't know if that's accurate.

He played with a PG that is 5'8 and a team that gets regularly out rebounded, the numbers are deceiving. Also, it's a question of available rebounds.

If more rebounds are available, you will get more, on our team the rebounds are much more scarce as Drummond sucks up quite a few and since we're a BIGGER team, the smaller players don't see or need to rebound as much.

BTW, this move by Ainge was NOT about the money, he wanted to get bigger, which is why I was taken aback that we would let Morris go, but it also depends on who gets the start, or more importantly, who gets the most minutes. I still hope Stanley steps up and takes the starting position.

But good news, SVG who was the dumbest guy on the planet a day ago, is now hailed as someone that you can have total faith in... talk about total flip flopping, I've seen fish on the deck that weren't that good!
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Oracle

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