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Re: FORUM

Post  cool breeze on Wed Aug 30, 2017 12:49 pm

WTF wrote:
Oracle wrote:You're right, I don't think Andre can be fixed, but he can be used right, and we aren't even doing that. There is friction between him and SVG as many articles suggest, and one of them is likely to go, IMO.

IMO it needs to be SVG that is let go putting the above aside his mishandling of KCP was mind-boggling and his obsession with Reggie was even more sickening.   Gore could have found a better coach so why he settled on SVG I'll never understand although I can guess.

Remember way back when Joe was trying to form his version of a big three with Smith, Monroe and Andre we both were on the same page that Andre should be coming off the bench oppose to trying to start all three.  Well both Moose and Smith is no longer here and I still think Andre should be coming off the bench now and this has a lot to do with him not being able to be fixed.  

The bug I have in my ass with SVG when it comes to defense is that he's not smart enough to hide Andre defense issues and perhaps others by employing more zones. Seems like commons sense but again like he's persistent about his 2 offensive plays he's obsessed with the notion they can consistently defend man to man.  

WTF I am not sure any coach can hide Drummond even by deploys some type of matchup zone defense. Everyone is placing the blame on the wrong person relating to AD's inferior defense. The facts show that every coach Andre Drummond has had will tell you that AD has a learning disability when it comes to playing defense. And in this situation with the Pistons, coach Van Gundy has to deal with the owner who has Andre's back and has taken the side of Drummond over the coach to place this wedge between the coach and player. Don't forget the shooting coach. Andre didn't want to work with the shooting coach even though he is the worst free throw shooter in the history of the NBA. He bitched to the owner and SVG had to back off. Drummond needs to be traded.

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Re: FORUM

Post  cool breeze on Wed Aug 30, 2017 12:34 pm

[quote="Oracle"][quote="http://www.freep.com/story/sports/nba/pistons/2017/08/28/detroit-pistons-avery-bradley-defense/606317001/"]When the Detroit Pistons acquired Avery Bradley in July, the first trait many associated with the newest Piston was tenacious defense.

In fact, NBA players were furious when Bradley was left off the NBA's All-Defensive teams last season, after making the First Team in 2015-16 and the Second Team in 2012-13.

So why then do Bradley's defensive metrics paint a disparate picture to his stellar defensive reputation? 

In a recent mailbag, ESPN's Kevin Pelton attempted to answer the question as to why Bradley's advanced defensive statistics rate poorly.

Bradley's defense rated 1.7 points per 100 possessions worse than league average in ESPN's real plus-minus (RPM) last season, a statistic that attempts to quantify how much a player helps or hurts his team when he's on the court.

And last year continued a troubling trend for Bradley, who has seen his DRPM decline in each of the past three seasons:

2015-16: minus-1.2 (35th among PGs)
2014-15: plus-0.7 (13th among PGs)
2013-14: plus-1.2 (6th among PGs)

*Note: Though Bradley is a shooting guard offensively, he's listed at point guard in ESPN's RPM stat, likely because he matched up against the opponent's best guard each game, which in most cases is the point guard.

These are not the numbers one would expect of an elite defender (for reference, Chris Paul led all guards with a plus-2.7 DRPM last season).

Bradley's raw steal and block numbers have never been top tier for an NBA perimeter defender, as he holds career averages of 1.1 steals and 0.2 blocks per game. His steal rate (an estimate of the percentage of opponent possessions that end with a steal by the player while he was on the court) was 1.8% last season, which, as Pelton points out, is not at the level of elite defenders like Chris Paul (3% steal rate), Patrick Beverley (2.3%) or Kawhi Leonard (2.7%).

Yes, steals and blocks aren't everything, but creating havoc and causing turnovers is a trait most, if not all, elite defenders possess.

More damning, Boston didn't defend better with Bradley in the game last season. Bradley, who is undersized for a shooting guard at 6 feet 2 and 180 pounds, rated 1.6 points worse than league average per 100 possessions in RAPM, "a version of adjusted plus-minus that doesn't consider anything else but how the team did with a player on and off the court, adjusted for teammates' opponents."

Was that due to the 26-year-old playing most minutes with diminutive guard Isaiah Thomas?

"According to NBA.com/Stats, the Celtics did have a slightly better 106.6 defensive rating when Bradley played without Thomas, as compared to 107.9 when they played together," Pelton wrote. "But that discrepancy paled in comparison to the same split for teammate Marcus Smart. Boston gave up only 96.2 points per 100 possessions when Smart played without Thomas, as compared to 111.6 with him."

Pelton concluded "that while Bradley's on-ball defense is frustrating for opponents and impressive to watch ... it doesn't make him as valuable as guards who can lock up opponents and contribute as help defenders."

Thanks for providing this information on stats Oracle. The problem I have with the stats you provided from the so called experts doesn't tell the real story. Coaches look at stats but always depend on their own eyes to tell what is really happening. The geeks who love to plug numbers might now know squat about the game of basketball. In high school basketball, I had students keep stats for our team. I would look at those stats at halftime and usually focus on turnovers and then immediately know if the stats guys wrote down the right numbers and sometimes they were way off. Stats are based on the people who enter the data. You can never depend on stats if you are coaching. Do you think that Brad Stevens depends on his stat people or the metrics you mention here? No Stevens has quick recognition skills and depends on his own brain to make his decisions. And Brad has the quickest recognition skill set that I have ever seen. He is amazing. And since he has coached Avery Bradley he has always made a point to give Avery credit for being their ace defender for the Celtics. Stevens knew that he was losing an important ingredient for his successful team but he and Ainge knew that Hayward was even more important. But you can bet that Boston will be the first team to make Bradley an offer next summer.

For some reason you have the need to put Bradley down and I am not sure why. I know you think that KCP is a better option and I think you are really wrong about that. Did you actually watch the playoffs and follow Boston in all of their series? It was clear that Bradley was the glue player in every series. He defended the opponents best player in every series. I have never seen any instance where Pope could guard John Wall. Pope is not good at stopping dribble penetration. But in the Boston - Washington series Bradley fought Wall tooth and nail for everything Wall got. Wall made some great plays but at the time I thought there was no guard in the NBA who could have guarded as well as Bradley managed to do. You bring out the stats for what purpose Oracle? Do you actually believe that Avery Bradley is not the best player on the Piston team? Do you really believe that Reggie Jackson is the best Piston player? Bradley is a smart high IQ player and talks like a coach. He got his reputation as a superior NBA defender. Politics denied him the status of being an All NBA defender. It was criminal that he was not selected. During the playoffs, the guy I was always watching was Avery Bradley who surprised me as to how much he had improved as an offensive threat. I thought at the time if only we had a player like that. And by God you are the leader in the propaganda campaign to destroy any chance that Bradley will resign with the Pistons. You are a KCP guy. You want the Pistons to sign KCP next season. Isn't that right Oracle? And if they do, it will be one of the biggest mistakes the Pistons could ever make. KCP is not a high basketball IQ player. He is physically gifted like Andre Drummond but he will never make the impact that Bradley made with the Celtics last season. Of course Pope might have progressed faster on another team other than the Pistons because he had to play with Jackson and Drummond. Any guard will not look very good playing with those two selfish players. But I respectfully request that you back off from your campaign to provide false information about Bradley as there are many Piston fans who are excited about him being on our team. I want fans to fully support this hard nosed player who plays the game the right way. He needs to be the team leader and management needs to do everything they can to resign him.

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Over/ under

Post  Sparma on Tue Aug 29, 2017 10:37 pm

The over/ under for the Pistons is 38.5 according to a Vegas line (per PP). I must be becoming an optimist because I'm confident that's low. Not by a ton maybe. I need to think about how much over I'm going by the beginning of the season, but I definitely like the Pistons' odds more than Vegas does.
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Why Not Mike Woodson

Post  WTF on Tue Aug 29, 2017 5:34 pm

This would have been a great coach for the Pistons
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Exactly...

Post  Oracle on Tue Aug 29, 2017 3:12 pm

You nailed it!

Not only his mishandling of KCP, but Monroe as well. His first sin was not knowing how to use them, his second was letting them BOTH walk for absolutely nothing! How inept can a front office be? That's a lot of assets we could have been compensated for!

But high on the list is your last point. Flip was known for his huge offensive playbook, but deep in that playbook, he housed some of the most innovative defensive schemes I've ever seen.

I credit his modified zone with extending our great defense a lot longer than the man defense under LB could have taken us.

So yes, a modified zone would not only hide Andre and make him twice as effective, it would also hide Reggie's weak stuff.
WTF wrote:
Oracle wrote:You're right, I don't think Andre can be fixed, but he can be used right, and we aren't even doing that. There is friction between him and SVG as many articles suggest, and one of them is likely to go, IMO.

IMO it needs to be SVG that is let go putting the above aside his mishandling of KCP was mind-boggling and his obsession with Reggie was even more sickening.   Gore could have found a better coach so why he settled on SVG I'll never understand although I can guess.

Remember way back when Joe was trying to form his version of a big three with Smith, Monroe and Andre we both were on the same page that Andre should be coming off the bench oppose to trying to start all three.  Well both Moose and Smith is no longer here and I still think Andre should be coming off the bench now and this has a lot to do with him not being able to be fixed.  

The bug I have in my ass with SVG when it comes to defense is that he's not smart enough to hide Andre defense issues and perhaps others by employing more zones. Seems like commons sense but again like he's persistent about his 2 offensive plays he's obsessed with the notion they can consistently defend man to man.  
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Oracle

Post  WTF on Tue Aug 29, 2017 3:01 pm

Oracle wrote:You're right, I don't think Andre can be fixed, but he can be used right, and we aren't even doing that. There is friction between him and SVG as many articles suggest, and one of them is likely to go, IMO.

IMO it needs to be SVG that is let go putting the above aside his mishandling of KCP was mind-boggling and his obsession with Reggie was even more sickening. Gore could have found a better coach so why he settled on SVG I'll never understand although I can guess.

Remember way back when Joe was trying to form his version of a big three with Smith, Monroe and Andre we both were on the same page that Andre should be coming off the bench oppose to trying to start all three. Well both Moose and Smith is no longer here and I still think Andre should be coming off the bench now and this has a lot to do with him not being able to be fixed.

The bug I have in my ass with SVG when it comes to defense is that he's not smart enough to hide Andre defense issues and perhaps others by employing more zones. Seems like commons sense but again like he's persistent about his 2 offensive plays he's obsessed with the notion they can consistently defend man to man.
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Metrics say Detroit Pistons guard Avery Bradley's defense is overrated

Post  Oracle on Tue Aug 29, 2017 2:42 pm

http://www.freep.com/story/sports/nba/pistons/2017/08/28/detroit-pistons-avery-bradley-defense/606317001/ wrote:When the Detroit Pistons acquired Avery Bradley in July, the first trait many associated with the newest Piston was tenacious defense.

In fact, NBA players were furious when Bradley was left off the NBA's All-Defensive teams last season, after making the First Team in 2015-16 and the Second Team in 2012-13.

So why then do Bradley's defensive metrics paint a disparate picture to his stellar defensive reputation? 

In a recent mailbag, ESPN's Kevin Pelton attempted to answer the question as to why Bradley's advanced defensive statistics rate poorly.

Bradley's defense rated 1.7 points per 100 possessions worse than league average in ESPN's real plus-minus (RPM) last season, a statistic that attempts to quantify how much a player helps or hurts his team when he's on the court.

And last year continued a troubling trend for Bradley, who has seen his DRPM decline in each of the past three seasons:

2015-16: minus-1.2 (35th among PGs)
2014-15: plus-0.7 (13th among PGs)
2013-14: plus-1.2 (6th among PGs)

*Note: Though Bradley is a shooting guard offensively, he's listed at point guard in ESPN's RPM stat, likely because he matched up against the opponent's best guard each game, which in most cases is the point guard.

These are not the numbers one would expect of an elite defender (for reference, Chris Paul led all guards with a plus-2.7 DRPM last season).

Bradley's raw steal and block numbers have never been top tier for an NBA perimeter defender, as he holds career averages of 1.1 steals and 0.2 blocks per game. His steal rate (an estimate of the percentage of opponent possessions that end with a steal by the player while he was on the court) was 1.8% last season, which, as Pelton points out, is not at the level of elite defenders like Chris Paul (3% steal rate), Patrick Beverley (2.3%) or Kawhi Leonard (2.7%).

Yes, steals and blocks aren't everything, but creating havoc and causing turnovers is a trait most, if not all, elite defenders possess.

More damning, Boston didn't defend better with Bradley in the game last season. Bradley, who is undersized for a shooting guard at 6 feet 2 and 180 pounds, rated 1.6 points worse than league average per 100 possessions in RAPM, "a version of adjusted plus-minus that doesn't consider anything else but how the team did with a player on and off the court, adjusted for teammates' opponents."

Was that due to the 26-year-old playing most minutes with diminutive guard Isaiah Thomas?

"According to NBA.com/Stats, the Celtics did have a slightly better 106.6 defensive rating when Bradley played without Thomas, as compared to 107.9 when they played together," Pelton wrote. "But that discrepancy paled in comparison to the same split for teammate Marcus Smart. Boston gave up only 96.2 points per 100 possessions when Smart played without Thomas, as compared to 111.6 with him."

Pelton concluded "that while Bradley's on-ball defense is frustrating for opponents and impressive to watch ... it doesn't make him as valuable as guards who can lock up opponents and contribute as help defenders."


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Wise

Post  Oracle on Tue Aug 29, 2017 2:35 pm

You're right, I don't think Andre can be fixed, but he can be used right, and we aren't even doing that. There is friction between him and SVG as many articles suggest, and one of them is likely to go, IMO.

Wise, Rose brought Andre and Reggie for one simple reason... nobody else on this team has the power to change its trajectory in any meaningful fashion. Nobody likes it, but if the big 2 don't play well, there's nothing left but a bunch of role players.

Jalen knows who Harris is, and he knows he's a good player that nobody in their right mind builds a team around.
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Stuff...

Post  Oracle on Tue Aug 29, 2017 2:26 pm

@DX - Of course I'm not cross with you, and we still do agree about Reggie. Everything we said and think about him can be true and he can still be our best player with all of his flaws. You, like some others go from the flaws to fighting with the facts. The numbers don't lie, how the team defers to its leader is what it is. You can keep fighting that, or just admit it and realize that it's just not enough for our future.

@Wise - I agree with you about what a best player is/should be, but that's not our current roster, we're talking about the facts on the court. If you have a bunch a turds, hopefully the one with the perfume on it smells the best  lol

@Ballin - I do think that Bradley has the BEST shot at being that person, but superstar is certainly major wet dreaming. He's everything we wanted KCP to eventually be, minus the size and speed, although he has decent speed. It's just that other than Bradley, if Reggie isn't himself, we're not that good if the east is better.

@Don - You're 100% correct, the devil is in the details, but it isn't just management spinning stuff for us to believe, it's the media as well. If we're honest, we're doing a bit of spinning ourselves.  Merc was very honest, Rose was honest and Wise has been calling them as he sees them. We have some potential bright spots in Bradley, Kennard and hopefully Stanley, but nothing is proven, so we spin how well they'll do.

I can't wait until we get to see some damn games, summer league was exciting, but the effect has worn off, I need to see some action to validate some of the spin from any source.
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Cool

Post  WTF on Tue Aug 29, 2017 2:20 pm

@Cool, I don't think Andre and Reggie can be fix so I've been all for moving them or at least benching both. I too believe the dysfunctions will continue and as it does the organization will continue to lose players. I think Harris is just buying time in hopes of getting hell out of here and that will soon be the case with Bradley if they're force to play with Reggie another season.

My guess is that SVG is now understanding this which is why I think Reggie might be moved before the season starts. He would like to move Andre too but made that almost impossible by giving him that contract.
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Ballin

Post  WTF on Tue Aug 29, 2017 2:00 pm

BallinD wrote:
Oracle, are you cross with me because my view of Reggie Jackson is vastly different than yours? Two years ago we'd be on the same page about Reggie, but here and now, after last years disturbing injury (it's recurring and I believe made worse by a premature return to action), this years team is more reliable than the inconsistent KCP (the untried Kennard, the often injured Bullock, the overpaid Galloway, did you actually watch Bradley's performance in Boston as Thomas's scoring sidekick, and it hurts my fingers to type this, but the wimpy Leuer, to name some PISTONS) and this represents options to a singular player being relied on to make that game winning last shot. I see a team that can play successful attack ball.

NBA.com lists Avery Bradley as one of the players poised for breakout to Superstar role, what it would be like to have a higher usage player as efficient as Bradley.  Could he become our best player?  I am not sure at this point we have a best player, but based on usage and using him effectively in the P&R as a secondary ball handler, Harris could be it with a role shift.  

Popovich says having high character players who are less me-first, is the key to Spurs success.  Players (unlike Dre and Weggie, and to a lesser extent SJ) who's actions speak to "Team," who are coachable and are "over themselves."  Bradley, Harris, Kennard have character and talent and its not mutually exclusive.


Ballin I was reading those quotes from Pop and was thinking just how far off the path to success we with certain players. It only confirms the soft criticism Jalen Rose served up yesterday about Reggie and Andre not living up to their contracts. Notice how Harris wasn't brought into the equation could be because it somehow suppose to mean more to a player after they've been offered up a huge contract.

One could imagine that Andre for all his talents and Jackson for all of his that Pop would have never drafted or signed either if you're reading those quotes as I've read them. But what perplexes me the most more than anything else is the acceptance of this players on this forum knowing what we know and seeing what we've seen with our 2 championship teams.

it's particularly maddening because of the 2 positions and players in questions, it's like we all but forgotten the 2 great tandem backcourts that lead us. its like there was no such players as Lamb or Big Ben on those championship holding down the paint. Just how low did we lower the bar here that these are suppose to be our 2 best players yet we couldn't trade either for a bag of chips.

Ballin wrote:Popovich says having high character players who are less me-first, is the key to Spurs success.  Players (unlike Dre and Weggie, and to a lesser extent SJ) who's actions speak to "Team," who are coachable and are "over themselves."  Bradley, Harris, Kennard have character and talent and its not mutually exclusive.


Ballin I would also add Leuer and Ellison perhaps even Boban to the list of coachable players and this team was to add 2 more players like this to replace both Reggie and Dre this team could win 50 games easily. You see I often get blasted for saying this and suggesting this but put any pass first PG in our lineup and watch the team improve. I still think Trey Burke would be a great addition to our team because I would rather see the offense run smoother than watching Reggie ball-hog for 20 of the 24 seconds of the shot clock so he can get his own 20 plus points. I still believe in that kid!!!
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As fall approaches there is always a tendency to believe current dysfunctional Piston players will be more functional but how many times has that ever happened?

Post  cool breeze on Tue Aug 29, 2017 1:59 pm

I keep harping on the same thing too much but cannot get past my memories from last season relating to how dumb Andre Drummond played the game of basketball. How can the team expect more success while AD is our starting center? Do any of you recall all of the games in the past three seasons where the Pistons played New Orleans? It didn't matter if the game was at home or on the road. Anthony Davis made a complete fool out of AD on both ends of the court. He has studied Andre's weaknesses which AD has not bothered to eliminate because of basic lack of work ethic. Davis can score individually on AD anyway he choses to score. AD has not been able to take anything away from this player when he attempts to defend him. That is just one example of many instances where opponent big men always out smart AD our franchise player. So when thinking about free agents, why in hell would any star player or above average player who wants to win want to come to Detroit? I like AD as a person and am not trying to spin hate against him. It is just as dX says, the Pistons lack talented dedicated players in leadership positions. AD should be coming off the bench for any good team and he should never be in the game at crunch time. And although he is the worst free throw shooter in NBA history, that is not the reason why. AD cannot be trusted to make the right decisions with the defensive rotations. He cannot play average defense against the pick and roll play. He simply lacks quick recognition skills because he has never been all in on becoming a better defender. His agent must continue to preach that he gets big contracts because of his offensive ability. So what does he really have as a skill set on offense? He is athletic when he wants to be. That is it. He has no jump shot or range. He needs to get offensive rebounds or easy dunks to score. His baseline hook shot is not money yet. I only provide details on our franchise player because the Pistons owner and SVG market AD as the key player for the Pistons. The owner has placed his eggs in the wrong basket based on the evidence from actual game action but being that they can't trade him they will feature him even more next season as the Pistons best offensive weapon. They need a player like the ball dominate Reggie Jackson to accomplish that goal. Won't that be fun Piston fans? We will see a repeat of last season.

Piston management needs to market as their key player somebody other than Reggie Jackson and Andre Drummond. Both players have too many defects. No team can win big with those two players. Playing both players together not only makes it easy for the opposition to defend and get stops in crunch time against the Pistons but also makes it much easier for any opponent to score against the Pistons. If both players are on the court at the same time, that makes two players who cannot defend anyone in the NBA. How can the other three teammates cover that many holes in the defense? Why in hell can't SVG figure this out?? Everyone needs to face the truth. Piston management is stuck with RJ and AD because of their contracts and lack of interest by any other NBA team to take those two players in a trade. So what do they do? SVG will have to create hype to sucker fans into purchasing season tickets knowing the product they put on the floor is extremely flawed. RJ and AD have always hated playing defense. They both show that they are just going through the motions like a walk through in practice on the day of a game.

Fans need to call Piston management out and demand a change. AD and RJ cannot be the team leaders. They need to be role players unless they can make a 360 degree change in what they believe is important. Despite what Oracle says, the one player on this team with star potential is Avery Bradley. I was shocked to read Oracle's statement that RJ is the best player on the team. You cannot be the best player if you are one of the weakest defensive perimeter guards in the entire league. RJ does not have good court vision when thinking of offense. He scores because he shoots a lot and dominates the basketball a lot. I have never known any former player who I ever played with or coached who wanted to play on the same team with that type of player. And the head coach has asked Ish Smith to model his game after RJ. How crazy has the NBA become? Smoke and mirrors Piston fans. This Piston management team is not really interested in creating a team that plays the right way. They think that fans want to see this type of nonsense. But in the end the team chemistry will always be subpar when executives make those type of blunders.

From what I saw in the summer league, Eric Moreland should be our starting center with AD coming off the bench. AD might do better on defense with 2nd tier opponents. He won't have to defend the Anthony Davis caliber players. Moreland will need to get his feet wet but he is very athletic and had a competitive heart. He is quick to cover mistakes of his teammates on defense in the paint. He boxes out his man which is refreshing because to this day I have never witnessed AD ever even trying to box out his man. If he had done it against Miami, Whiteside would not have gotten the game winning tip in which sealed the Pistons fate relating to the playoffs. It is like watching that old movie about the Indiana high school basketball team that won the state championship. They had a player who never came in early in the morning to practice free throws and was not committed to practicing and eliminating his weaknesses. So in a big game he was the player who missed the free throws that cost his team a big game.And SVG made that type of player the designated team leader last year. In the NBA, you just can't ignore your weaknesses like AD and RJ have done and not end up hurting your team. RJ has not improved is defensive ability since he arrived in the league much like AD. And he has not improved his court awareness or ability to find all four of his teammates and distribute the ball to the right player at the right time. That might be a God given talent and RJ not have it. And Ish Smith is also not the answer either. He cannot defend top tier guards and he also has a problem penetrating to far into the paint which usually indicates lack of ability to see all of his teammates at the same time in the half court set. Both guards need to get the ball out of their own hands quickly and then move without the ball so the offense has some flow.

The devil is in the details. Piston management wants us to ignore the details while they spin stories about how things will be different this season. SVG says he wants AD to be more engaged on defense and become a rim protector and shot blocker. Has anyone heard AD say he is on board with that? Did he work with a coach this summer to improve his defensive recognition skill set? How can the team overcome the fact that that the two highest paid players have the most flaws and the coach will insist that both players be the featured players in the offense? Then of course there is the problem that the Pistons have to play 3 on 5 when they are on defense because AD and RJ are on the floor with the starting lineup. The only way this team can be successful is if Bradley, Harris, Johnson, Galloway, and a center other than AD take charge of this team and allow no nonsense. They will have to become the type of players we saw lead the team when the Bad Boys ruled the NBA. They would not allow teammates to play the game like AD and RJ play it.of course those two team leaders were two of the smarted players in the NBA at the time not among the most mentally impaired. With the Bad Boys sure the coaching staff was really good but there was no doubt who actually ran the club. It was Zeke and Laimbeer. Unless AD and RJ make a complete personality change in 6 weeks, they both need to be traded to save the rest of the core players from more embarrassment. This dancing before the tip off needs to stop too. We need to see that the players have their game faces on to restore our faith in them. We are not interested in AD's new dancing steps. We want to see him engaged or traded. And we need to see Reggie Jackson use those long arms and quick feet to get more deflections and to stop dribble penetration better. If those players won't focus on their weaknesses then we fans will have to call them out because Piston management will continue to feature an act that belongs in a circus side show. I just do not know how some of our talented players can function if they play with AD and RJ unless they take charge and confront the head coach and force SVG to do the right thing. For sure there will be a clash of personalities. Avery Bradley is used to wining and playing the right way. He has other teammates to think like him. It will be fun to watch this all play out. If the coach and owner will not allow the players to settle things themselves on how the team should play, then Bradley will for sure leave. On the other hand if Avery is the team leader and blossoms into the Pistons star player, then he most likely will want to sign with the Pistons and the free agents will take a second look at Detroit while Avery's teammates will form a good bond as they start kicking ass and taking names.

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Getting Funky

Post  BallinD on Tue Aug 29, 2017 1:13 pm

Oracle, are you cross with me because my view of Reggie Jackson is vastly different than yours? Two years ago we'd be on the same page about Reggie, but here and now, after last years disturbing injury (it's recurring and I believe made worse by a premature return to action), this years team is more reliable than the inconsistent KCP (the untried Kennard, the often injured Bullock, the overpaid Galloway, did you actually watch Bradley's performance in Boston as Thomas's scoring sidekick, and it hurts my fingers to type this, but the wimpy Leuer, to name some PISTONS) and this represents options to a singular player being relied on to make that game winning last shot. I see a team that can play successful attack ball.

NBA.com lists Avery Bradley as one of the players poised for breakout to Superstar role, what it would be like to have a higher usage player as efficient as Bradley. Could he become our best player? I am not sure at this point we have a best player, but based on usage and using him effectively in the P&R as a secondary ball handler, Harris could be it with a role shift.

Popovich says having high character players who are less me-first, is the key to Spurs success.  Players (unlike Dre and Weggie, and to a lesser extent SJ) who's actions speak to "Team," who are coachable and are "over themselves."  Bradley, Harris, Kennard have character and talent and its not mutually exclusive.

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Best Player Metric

Post  WTF on Tue Aug 29, 2017 12:57 pm

Flashback to a player we once had on the team that by all measures was our best all-around player but was highly disliked because of his poor 3pt shooting and he was labelled as a chemistry killer.

Reggie isn't that far from being just like Josh Smith but for different reasons IMHO. The difference is that Josh was almost forced into taking ill-advised 3's and scapegoated mainly because of the love-fest many had with a Moose and Andre tandem leading us to the promise-land while Reggie on the other-hand is more self-inflicted.

IMHO we don't have a best player even though I will agree with you that Reggie is better at a lot of things but they're mostly self-serving to only Reggie. I know you said we should disregard position and focus on a certain ability. Hard to ignore position when the ball is in the hands of your PG the majority of the time and it's hard to ignore that PG is a position of leadership.

I think the word we should use is Most Skilled oppose to using Best in the case of Reggie as far as Andre IMO he's judged on potential and periodic flashes of greatness but there's no denying he's dumb as nail holding water together. One HOF'er of ours once said it doesn't matter how high you can jump or fast you can run if you don't understand the game.

Before we let him walk and I wasn't opposed to it I could argue that our best player was KCP. I said countless time it was always a case of fit and usage that he didn't shine as brightly as he should have. I can say much in the way that I defending Josh that Morris was before we traded him was our best all-around player and best defender.

Zeke and CB we're night and day when it came to their game and style of play, but where it matched was with the ability to lead a team largely by sacrificing their own individuals success. They shined in clutch moments while Reggie needs to shine for a full 48 minutes so if he's the Best he's also the most Stupid. Rip lead our team in scoring because CB got him rock we all know CB was capable of putting up 30 pts at any time if he so chose to do so and we all know what Zeke was capable of but we consistently saw 6 or 7 players on the team in double figures scoring game in and game out. We won't see this with Reggie running this team. No doubt Reggie may single-handedly win some games being a ball-hog but it won't get us 50 win seasons.

IMO the best player is the one that best understands the game and uses his talents and skill set for the purpose of team success and not individual success, there is always going to be players that are good at certain things hence we have players that lead in rebounds, blocks, steals, assist, scoring and so on we may even have players that shine in more than one but it doesn't make them the best player.
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and Things

Post  deusXango on Tue Aug 29, 2017 9:54 am

Oracle wrote:@Merc - ISO players is being kind, more accurately, they're players that attempt isolation plays, but aren't that good at it.

@Don - I don't want to knock unselfish players, but when I keep hearing that to describe too much of the team, it translates in my head to untalented. You want some unselfish players, but you also need bigger talent, and bigger talent is selfish in a good way, they make things happen instead of waiting for something to happen.

@Wise - BEST Player? Pick your metric! Highest scorer, yeah he was that when we were winning.

Who do you give the ball to in the 4th and tell him to bring the team home? Other than the departed KCP, there's only Reggie!

There isn't a player(other than Reggie) left on this team that has that capability... NONE! For all the love Harris gets, he couldn't close out a game by sheer force of his will if his life depended on it. he's a steady scorer, but not a dominant player.

So yeah, Reggie, if healthy is our best player by a long shot, otherwise we have a team of guys waiting for somebody to take charge!
Oracle, are you cross with me because my view of Reggie Jackson is vastly different than yours? Two years ago we'd be on the same page about Reggie, but here and now, after last years disturbing injury (it's recurring and I believe made worse by a premature return to action), this years team is more reliable than the inconsistent KCP (the untried Kennard, the often injured Bullock, the overpaid Galloway, did you actually watch Bradley's performance in Boston as Thomas's scoring sidekick, and it hurts my fingers to type this, but the wimpy Leuer, to name some PISTONS) and this represents options to a singular player being relied on to make that game winning last shot. I see a team that can play successful attack ball.
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Stuff...

Post  Oracle on Tue Aug 29, 2017 5:00 am

@Merc - ISO players is being kind, more accurately, they're players that attempt isolation plays, but aren't that good at it.

@Don - I don't want to knock unselfish players, but when I keep hearing that to describe too much of the team, it translates in my head to untalented. You want some unselfish players, but you also need bigger talent, and bigger talent is selfish in a good way, they make things happen instead of waiting for something to happen.

@Wise - BEST Player? Pick your metric! Highest scorer, yeah he was that when we were winning.

Who do you give the ball to in the 4th and tell him to bring the team home? Other than the departed KCP, there's only Reggie!

There isn't a player(other than Reggie) left on this team that has that capability... NONE! For all the love Harris gets, he couldn't close out a game by sheer force of his will if his life depended on it. he's a steady scorer, but not a dominant player.

So yeah, Reggie, if healthy is our best player by a long shot, otherwise we have a team of guys waiting for somebody to take charge!
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Re: FORUM

Post  cool breeze on Tue Aug 29, 2017 4:31 am

merc wrote:If you go down the roster it becomes more clear than we have a team full of Iso players with below average court vision... Who's going to break down a defense with the purpose of finding the guy with the best look?
The game plan for opponents is to pressure the Piston with the ball in his hands.
I'm not sure how successful SVG can be trying to convert ball dominant players into floor spacing touch passers... We maybe have two or three guys that can dribble with their head up let alone recognize defenses.
Our best hope is for our range shooters to open up enough space for the selfish players to get to the hole and let Andre clean it up.
More BBall IQ please.

Mercury you have hit the nail on the head so to speak. SVG is supposed to be a superior coach but what does that really mean? He was a excellent college coach. So maybe the NBA game is not really about playing basketball the right way. Maybe SVG has realized that the NBA brand is just about providing entertainment for dummies who eat popcorn and socialize during NBA games. I say this because you have described in a few words exactly how SVG's selected players played the game all season long and the coach must have liked it because he never made any changes with his system or his dysfunctional system. All the coach/president seemed to talk about was politics last season. He wanted to be on what he thought might be the popular side maybe so his players might relate better with him. The dysfunctional system was fit his dysfunctional players well and the result was a boring and losing experience for supporters of the Pistons. Something needs to change with the leadership with the coaching staff and among the players to create something new that will fit the players who are not Reggie Jackson and Andre Drummond. We have some better two way players waiting to show their brand of basketball. Reggie and Andre formed a click on the court that excluded others. Andre is working on his offensive game so he can touch the ball even more this season. Maybe Reggie is working on his dribbling so he doesn't get tired after honing the ball for 19 seconds of the shot clock. He looks and sees Andre is covered so he will have to force another shot in traffic. Wow won't that be fun! I can't wait. The crowd with love it. SVG and the owner will have put on another good show for the fans. All will be happy but the simple people who want to see what some of the other players can do.

Some fans have indicated that it will be curtains for Stanley Johnson if he doesn't have a break out year. I recall the role Johnson played last season and wonder how he could have been successful in that role the coach provided for him. Exactly what was his role anyway? He had none other than to stand in the baseline corner and play defense.Johnson is a good screener but that skill was not utilized or wanted by the coaching staff. Just clear out of the way so the point guards can do their thing. So will fans bitch Jonson out if the coach gives Stanley the same role again?

The game plan was to have either Reggie or Ish hog the ball and create something to open up Andre or just shoot it. I guess the owner and coach think that is what the fans might enjoy. Who cares about winning anyway. I really fear that the owner and SVG will want to do what they did last season and feature Reggie/Ish in the pick and roll with AD. That is the last thing that should happen if those in charge really care about winning games. Will that mean that Reggie/Ish and AD will be too tired again to play respectable defense this season?

Bradley likes to share the basketball and has the respect of his teammates because he is a hard nosed defender. Avery also has played point guard in the NBA before. And we have Galloway who is an unselfish hard nosed player on defense and shares the basketball on offense. And Kennard is another guy who is good ball handler who sees the floor well. Yet it appears that those ball dominate players from last season with "limited court vision" will run the show again. And they better keep Andre happy with lots of touches or there will be hell to pay.

What the coach and owner should be worried about is the fact that Reggie/Ish on the court at the same time as AD will be real ugly when the Pistons are on defense. Forget for a moment how dysfunctional the offense will be with that two player offensive show, What will smell even worse will be playing two of the most ineffective defenders on the court at the same time - Reggie/Ish and AD.How can those three players somehow change who they are when thinking about how the Pistons just could not get any stops in crunch time last season?

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Best Player????

Post  WTF on Tue Aug 29, 2017 1:34 am

Sparma. I'm okay with Stafford new deal it just means it time for him to deliver. I think the Lions are due why not this season and even not this year the Lions needed to lock him down.

Oracle, please define Best Player

Sparma, I think had Jalen answered that question while sitting on the set of ESPN it would have came out differently. He was being real but doing it a politically correct manner
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Stafford & Jalen

Post  Oracle on Tue Aug 29, 2017 12:00 am

I've been very hard on Stafford, and no, he doesn't deserve to be the highest paid, but I did see real growth out of him last year. I too am glad we locked him up because I feel he may be ready to finally utilize all of the tools around him.

I thought Jalen was just being real! he was saying what most of us have been saying, the east is wide open, and you don't have to be very good to get into the playoffs. So if they can't do it this season, we've got bigger problems that any of us thinks!
Sparma wrote:Stafford's about to be the highest paid football player ever!?  Just how the system works, or sheer lunacy?  In any case, I'm glad he's resigned with the Lions for the long term.  He was last year's MVP, if that means the player that makes the most positive difference to his team when playing at optimal level (which we could see when he was sub-optimal due to injury).  Doesn't mean he was the best player.

I'm disappointed with Jalen's shallow analysis of the Pistons.  I've listened to him often on radio, and generally like his stuff.
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DX, my opinion...

Post  Oracle on Mon Aug 28, 2017 11:44 pm

Reggie has this forum totally confused! Everybody wants to evaluate him on his position, but that evaluation totally misses the boat.

I totally that Reggie is NOT the best PG on this team, Ish Smith is by a long shot, nobody else is even close.

However, Reggie is our BEST player, and when healthy, he's the best by a mile! You can get bent out of shape about the position he plays and lose sight of the fact that you want your best player on the floor as much as possible.

Drummond is our 2nd best player, and if he could hit the side of a barn with his FT's, he's be closing in on Reggie!

Say what you will about Ish, he got that ball moving with KCP & Harris and this team was hell to stop. Yes he pounds the ball, but he does it with a purpose, and he can do what no other player on this team can do... get anywhere on the court he wants to, and that drives defenses crazy and opens up the floor for anybody that can shoot(Kennard anyone?).

If you've been reading the recent articles on Bradley, his defense isn't all it's cracked up to be, and has been getting worse over the last 3 years. Hopefully standing out on the 3 point line getting plenty of rest in SVG's offense will make him more energetic on defense.
deusXango wrote:Would someone please explain to the curious fans, who're slow on the uptake, why Reggie is so important and why we're waiting and hoping for a "return to form," whatever that is? The P & R? Will Bynum and Andre Drummond were the best P & R tandem we've had, hands down! Drummond was younger then and Bynum is long gone now, so that argument doesn't mean squat(It may not mean squat, but it does provide some context). Bradley, Kennard, or Galloway (if given a fair chance) could probably be as effective, if not better, triggering the P & R and they're taller than Smith, if height is a concern for our PG. He's 6' 4" and should see the floor better than a shorter PG. Yeah, he sees the floor better as given evidence by his constantly pounding the air out of the ball when teammates are noticeably open; SVG couldn't wait to get that smurf sized PG (Ish Smith) out of the lineup because he was seeing teammates who were open, passing the ball to them and contrary to Reggie's style, was passing the ball up the floor, and rarely waiting until there was 4-5 seconds left on the shot before giving up the rock to a teammate.

If "what have you done for me lately" have any meaning, then what I've seen lately, from this genius of a coach, was a pathetic run to nowhere; didn't play the youth or Boban, didn't make the playoffs, and didn't fall to a level deserving a top 5 draft pick...with the drop-off from 44 wins, who wouldn't have understood a top 5 draft pick? Oh, I forgot, coming out the gate Smith fu@ked that up by giving us a taste of hope in Reggie's absence. My bad. Don't want to confuse the uninformed.

Three, no more than five games should tell the tale if Reggie's back, win or loose; it'll be how he plays with the team or how much he stalls the offense by forcing the two man game, and ignoring his new teammates in the starting lineup. If sh!t seems to be on the horizon, shift Bradley to PG and start Kennard at SG...what's to be lost and what's to be possibly gained? This is the year to establish an offensive direction and develop defensive chemistry. Speaking of defense, how the hell was that big ass fro' and those monstrous swats be missed in Washington, then Orlando, before landing in Detroit? What was that oversight due to? Ego of a coach? Payroll? Lack of a sexy offensive game? Perhaps the brain trust of the Pistons should be considering working Eric Moreland into the rotation, here and now, to see what we have. I don't believe this young man is as much of a gamble as some will make him out to be. If it takes two to totally dominate the paint then so be it; that's if we're serious about winning! Drummond/Moreland, don't split 'em up, pair 'em up(Too early to tell, IMO).
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Stafford, Jalen

Post  Sparma on Mon Aug 28, 2017 11:40 pm

Stafford's about to be the highest paid football player ever!? Just how the system works, or sheer lunacy? In any case, I'm glad he's resigned with the Lions for the long term. He was last year's MVP, if that means the player that makes the most positive difference to his team when playing at optimal level (which we could see when he was sub-optimal due to injury). Doesn't mean he was the best player.

I'm disappointed with Jalen's shallow analysis of the Pistons. I've listened to him often on radio, and generally like his stuff.
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Who's gonna distribute

Post  merc on Mon Aug 28, 2017 11:37 pm

If you go down the roster it becomes more clear than we have a team full of Iso players with below average court vision... Who's going to break down a defense with the purpose of finding the guy with the best look?
The game plan for opponents is to pressure the Piston with the ball in his hands.
I'm not sure how successful SVG can be trying to convert ball dominant players into floor spacing touch passers... We maybe have two or three guys that can dribble with their head up let alone recognize defenses.
Our best hope is for our range shooters to open up enough space for the selfish players to get to the hole and let Andre clean it up.
More BBall IQ please.
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I Came to Bring The Pain

Post  BallinD on Mon Aug 28, 2017 11:16 pm

DX, I feel your pain and I love your rants cause there is so much BS tossed our way about this SVG-managed debacle as the fat man tries desparately to salvage his reputation.

It won't work. But us uber fans see so much more than the pundits and their slappies, so we call it out, and wish we could have more influence, but all we can do is vote with our feet and biotchh with our words.

It will be curious to see how he handles the whole Weggie debacle. Three to five games is generous. If he is not damn impressive during pre-season games and workouts, that should be the limit, IMHO.

Will SVG wake up? Will the team allow him to shortcircuit team chemistry once again? Is Gores also asleep at the wheel. How soon before no one but middling to poor free agents want to come here. Oh wait...We've passed the point of no return! Painful!


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Jalen Jalen

Post  WTF on Mon Aug 28, 2017 11:03 pm

Jalen Rose wrote:"The players you draft, like Andre Drummond, and the players you acquire and give contracts to, like Reggie Jackson, those players need to be at their peak performance," said Rose, a Michigan Fab Five member, former NBA standout and current ESPN analyst.  "I know Andre Drummond has potential. I know Reggie Jackson is a good player. Now, they just need to ball."
With the NBA landscape changing – now, star players recruit each other to form "super" teams – the Pistons appear to be stuck in neutral. Barring a blockbuster trade, they could struggle to replicate the championship form that carried them to the NBA title as recently as 2004.

Hmmmmm..........

But Jalen who's there to encourage that type of thinking? There's former Bad Boy to tell Reggie how to have a heart of a lion, and will to succeed at all cost and sacrifice. There's former Goin To Work to tell Andre to be the best and work hard. True but I don't think they know what it means to just go out and ball.

I don't think Zeke would have sat out 21 games but little Reggie does, balling comes with a mentality I don't think any of our own players have but neither does the bulk of current NBA players.

Flashback to your earliest memory of Zeke we probably seen the pain of losing in his face as much as we seen him smile. Imagine what those conversation with, Lamb and Rick was like, imagine a young Salley and Rodman in the locker room after a heartbreaking loss in the ECF, They knew and believed in their hearts and in their minds they were better than the Lakers, better than the Celtics. We never doubted their effort or will to win.

Flash back your earliest memories of CB, Rip and Big Ben. A whole team that fed off the energy of Big Ben a player who just wanted to play and prove he belongs. If Andre woke up with half the energy and determination as Big Ben he could dominate the game the same way Big Ben did.

Sorry Jalen but even you come from a place this current group hasn't and that's from a winning program, you competed at some point with players from both championship teams so you know what it means to just ball.

One thing with our past tradition is that we beat the super teams, defied the odds, set our own trends, we don't need a super team but we do need Andre and Reggie to just ball.
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Stuff

Post  deusXango on Mon Aug 28, 2017 9:05 pm

Would someone please explain to the curious fans, who're slow on the uptake, why Reggie is so important and why we're waiting and hoping for a "return to form," whatever that is? The P & R? Will Bynum and Andre Drummond were the best P & R tandem we've had, hands down! Drummond was younger then and Bynum is long gone now, so that argument doesn't mean squat. Bradley, Kennard, or Galloway (if given a fair chance) could probably be as effective, if not better, triggering the P & R and they're taller than Smith, if height is a concern for our PG. He's 6' 4" and should see the floor better than a shorter PG. Yeah, he sees the floor better as given evidence by his constantly pounding the air out of the ball when teammates are noticeably open; SVG couldn't wait to get that smurf sized PG (Ish Smith) out of the lineup because he was seeing teammates who were open, passing the ball to them and contrary to Reggie's style, was passing the ball up the floor, and rarely waiting until there was 4-5 seconds left on the shot before giving up the rock to a teammate.

If "what have you done for me lately" have any meaning, then what I've seen lately, from this genius of a coach, was a pathetic run to nowhere; didn't play the youth or Boban, didn't make the playoffs, and didn't fall to a level deserving a top 5 draft pick...with the drop-off from 44 wins, who wouldn't have understood a top 5 draft pick? Oh, I forgot, coming out the gate Smith fu@ked that up by giving us a taste of hope in Reggie's absence. My bad. Don't want to confuse the uninformed.

Three, no more than five games should tell the tale if Reggie's back, win or loose; it'll be how he plays with the team or how much he stalls the offense by forcing the two man game, and ignoring his new teammates in the starting lineup. If sh!t seems to be on the horizon, shift Bradley to PG and start Kennard at SG...what's to be lost and what's to be possibly gained? This is the year to establish an offensive direction and develop defensive chemistry. Speaking of defense, how the hell was that big ass fro' and those monstrous swats be missed in Washington, then Orlando, before landing in Detroit? What was that oversight due to? Ego of a coach? Payroll? Lack of a sexy offensive game? Perhaps the brain trust of the Pistons should be considering working Eric Moreland into the rotation, here and now, to see what we have. I don't believe this young man is as much of a gamble as some will make him out to be. If it takes two to totally dominate the paint then so be it; that's if we're serious about winning! Drummond/Moreland, don't split 'em up, pair 'em up.
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