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Philly and Boston

Post  Go Stones! on Sat Jun 17, 2017 6:32 pm

Well, it appears GSW and Cavs are our the current favorites for Finals. We saw Boston come very close, and with Ainge in charge it will come soon enough. I see that Ainge is slowly bettering that group and being very savvy with possibly trading down so he helps his future.

I'M VERY CONCERNED! Boston is going to be the new hot spot. I'm MORE concerned about Philly though! They have been the brunt of every joke the last decade, however, if you look at their lineup a Fultz-Simmons-Embiid group may be the future. Why? Well, Philly is ONLY committed to $36M next year! That leaves money for at least 2 All-star-caliber-money that could be added to these young guys! Think about adding a SG and SF like Wade and Durant to that group or the equivalent. The other guys (Bayless, McConnell, Covington, Holmes, Stauskas) as the bench. Mixing vets and young guys has historically been very successful. If Philly knows what they are doing now with new admin, it could get very scary.

The reason the Cavs won't win moving forward is b/c Lebron is getting older and demands $30M+ per year. That will not end well in the future. GSW may have a dynasty on their hands, but only if the players share and not get greedy. If all sign for 1/2 of their potential it will all work out. Only injuries and getting old/slow will give anyone else a shot in that case.

Your thoughts?
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More spin doctors providing depressing news today "Will The Pistons Move Any Key Rotation Players?"

Post  cool breeze on Sat Jun 17, 2017 6:01 pm

First the writers give us the bad news up front that the financial picture is not favorable for Detroit to make any moves. Of course they can throw out their one asset the 12th pick and go fishing for another Jon Leuer. After a few more depressing sentences we get to the meat of this article. In essence, the Detroit Pistons are in great shape because this team is loaded at every position unlike other teams that did not make the playoffs. Do these people all think we are morons? My God that is funny. This team got their butts kicked by non playoff teams in blow out games while the Pistons were at full strength with no injuries for excuses. The other non playoff teams like Phoenix did suffer many key injuries and that team has some solid players at several positions. What do we really have if no team in the league is interested in any of our highly paid athletes? Did the writer mention that the Pistons had the worst team chemistry in the entire league? We have no above average or perhaps average player on this team but for some reason Piston management wants to get the message out that we have no weaknesses at any position on this team. Even our backups are great. No wonder Piston management has over-rated and over-payed the current roster players. They must have been on a cloud in some unusual dream like state for the entire 2017-18 season and are still in it now. Please wake up before draft day and come to your senses. The depressing news is that Piston management is wearing rose colored glasses too often and should not be allowed to make any more decisions that will hurt the team even more. This team is loaded alright. They are fully stocked with low basketball IQ players featuring key players who have a marginal work ethic. The coaching staff is in La La land. The entire franchise has become a complete joke throughout the league. Fans will not dare wear any Piston team hats (excluding old Championship hats) for many seasons to come. And the owner according to Stan Van Gundy has full faith in him as the decision maker.

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What is the inside story on the lawsuit that might block public funding for the new downtown arena

Post  cool breeze on Sat Jun 17, 2017 5:17 pm

Is it true the the rich owners of pro sports teams and other speculators who own land interests near the construction site somehow convinced public officials to agree that it is OK to use tax revenue dedicated for schools to go to this new business venture? Isn't the city bankrupt still? Will this new arena be bankrolled by tax payers outside the Detroit area. Isn't it too expensive now to own a home inside the city because the property tax is so high? Doesn't the city have a City tax as well? There is a power emotional thrust built up in the media to drive this venture to the promise land. Everyone seems excited with the exception of the people who will end up paying for it like the old Silver Dome foolishness. Maybe this will be good for the city of Detroit but at who's expense will it be great? The sports team owners who have billions in the bank will benefit for sure. Isn't that the way things always seem to end up? If this is such a great thing then show the people in the State of Michigan where your money is please if you are a sports team owner who will benefit from this move.

What is wrong with the Palace. That place has great history. Two different teams played there. That means something to me. Maybe the owner could change the official name of the team to reflect the entire State of Michigan. As Sir Charles Barkley once said, he has never been to the City of Detroit. He played all of his games and announced all of this games outside the city limits. I am not against moving the team into the city but not at the expense of the kids who need better schools and teachers. By the way are the school board members still provided with drivers and do they ride in stretch lemos like the old days?

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Re: FORUM

Post  cool breeze on Sat Jun 17, 2017 12:24 pm

deusXango wrote:
Murph wrote:
My game plan was to keep Reggie Jackson, hope he recovers physically and returns to his old form, and redevelops the pick-and-roll chemistry he had with Drummond two seasons ago, and build around that foundation.  But as Don has pointed out many times, that foundation is built on sand. Should Reggie recover, innovative offensive schemes should be incorporated to expand not only the team's effectiveness, but Reggie's game as well.

Reggie was a shadow of his former self last season.  He's not as quick as he was before the injury, and he still can't shoot, which is a problem in today's NBA.   And Drummond appears to lack the mental wherewithal to make the necessary improvements to his defense and offense for that matter, not to mention free throw shooting. Drummond is the major flaw we have that can't be addressed at the present, only hidden as best we can...limit his minutes and bench him when he starts sleeping in the game...we have Boban and a small ball center in Ellenson. Play all three regularly, until Drummond digs his head out of his ass (hopefully sooner than later).

And the players that SVG had collected to compliment the core all come with their own set of question marks.  KCP will command big bucks for his inconsistent shooting.  Marcus Morris is problem is the locker room.  Tobias Harris can't even start.  Jon Lauer should not be starting.  Stanley Johnson has been a big disappointment.  And SVG doesn't even attempt to develop Henry Ellenson. I wouldn't give up on our rookies just yet, but I'd try my best to trade Leuer. If he's all that, we should be able to get a late first round pick for him from a team with multiple picks. We're going to need that cheddar if Reggie returns to form and we resign KCP.  

On top of that, the draft looks bleak for the Pistons.  It appears that none of the excellent crop of PGs will be available at #12, so our choices are coming down to the lilly white Dukie, Luke Kennard, who might not be a good fit in the D, the 6'2 SG, Donovan Mitchell, who's even shorter than Ben Gordon, or a number of skinny 6'10 big men who will make Ellenson completely redundant. This is where thinking out the box comes in, with a little riverboat gambler and faith. I'd stay away from the Austin Daye clones (I read his name mentioned the other day leading me to believe some have forgotten what a BIG disappointment he was) and a 6' 2" SG is not what we need. I don't believe I'm typing this, but Luke Kennard may be the way to go...KCP has never had a suitable backup that could push him to be better.


So what to do?  At this point, I think SVG should give the Jackson-Drummond core one more year.  If they still can't return to form, then blow it all up at the end of this season.  But I hate the idea of blowing it up again, and beginning yet another 5 year rebuilding program, which is why I'd give them one more year, against all odds. I'm convinced...I'm getting old.

Draft Kennard and hope that he's the consistent outside shooter we've lacked since Billups and Hamilton, and hope that Pistons fans will somehow warm up to him.  Let KCP walk.  Trade Marcus Morris.  Start Tobias Harris for crying out loud.  And find a starting PF somewhere, whether it's Lauer, Ellenson or a free agent.  And then pray the Pistons can actually make it to the post season. If SVG's stubborn ass would only give the Ellenson/Harris/Drummond frontline a chance, we may find we have something special going for us. I'd bring Morris off the bench...he's too valuable to us right now and the bench is where his game dictates he belongs. I wouldn't give KCP a penny more than $10 million, if he demanded more, bye, bye!
Murph, I've given your thoughts a lot of consideration and the differences of opinion or agreement are posted. There is a trade on my mind that I'm sure can be made, if explored and there's any worth in the player I'd trade. The Lakers #28 or Utah's #30 for Jon Leuer. If that could be pulled off, then it's worth drafting Kennard (ugh!) at #12 and taking a chance on Jawun Evans with the late first round pick. My thinking is Reggie and KCP would have quality backups and if Reggie doesn't return to form, Ish and Jawun could run an up-tempo offense for 48 minutes and we still have that deadly shooter in our arsenal.

Let's face it Stan Van Gundy had three power forwards he let go before he signed Leuer who were better rotation players. Piston management did not do their homework on the Leuer signing. They were grasping at straws. His weak upper body made him a liability on defense. His basketball IQ is not so bad compared with other Piston players. But Orlando made a complete fool of Leuer when they targeted his inability to guard other power forwards in the last week of this past season. So Leuer is much like several other players Detroit cannot unload now unless they agree to play a good portion of the players salaries. This would mean more embarrassment for Piston management so don't look for Leuer to be on any NBA team's list for trade purposes. He makes too much money. Does that reason sound similar to the situation with Drummond and Jackson? Drummond is not the type of center teams want nowadays. He cannot stretch the floor and he is the slowest center in the league in recognition skills on defense. If he were a good defender, then other teams might be more interested.

It appears to me that the Detroit Pistons are stuck in the mud thanks to inept player evaluation skills by the highly paid Piston management staff. Remember the days when we fans were worried about losing some of our key players to free agency? We all know what these clowns can do and so does every GM in the league. Detroit would need to kick in money to pay part of every player's salary that we have identified as a problem player. This is why the only news in Piston land that has been shouted down is the idea to trade our number one pick. Will there be a fan revolt this season? Did the owner worry about that threat when he decided to move the team downtown? The players on the current roster who do have potential to get better are worried about their chances of improvement when they have to play basketball with the most highly paid guys who call themselves team leaders. Harris must take over the leadership in training camp. Drummond will have to be told to keep is trap shut, stop tweeting that he wants to play in Boston, lose a lot of weight and show he cares just a little bit. Jackson will have to become a more team orientated player if he does still have any mojo. Come on Tobias take command! Tell Drummond and Jackson the facts of life that this team is not going to take this nonsense anymore. And SVG needs to keep his ass out of dictating what will happen in team only meetings. Who in hell does that? I don't know any coach who would have done what SVG did. Not only has the Piston management team led by Stan Van Gundy been light years behind the rest of the league in player evaluations and decision making skills but the coaching quality is dead last in effectiveness. Does anyone disagree with this evaluation. I know the press has been evaluating players now since the season ended but have then honestly evaluated the work of the coaching staff (assistant coaches) (Head coach) and the Piston front office team. God they have a huge staff of idiots.

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Rodman

Post  Sparma on Sat Jun 17, 2017 11:17 am

Hadn't realized he's on his fifth trip to North Korea.
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Rodman Saved The World?

Post  Murph on Sat Jun 17, 2017 7:46 am

I usually hate to interject politics into this forum, but ya gotta read this. It's hilarious.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/dennis-rodmans-north-korea-trip-just-saved-the-world
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Agreed To Get Another Pick

Post  BallinD on Sat Jun 17, 2017 12:32 am

DX: Great Post by you and Murph. I say go all in on the present and the future by snagging another pick by packaging one of our middling starters or rotation players (Leuer). Get better shooting and more athletic and more skilled. Will Ellensen cost us that many games vs Leuer? Will the rooks be able to get in the SVG lineup?

Its a role of the dice for the win-now crowd, but do we really wanna mortgage our future so we can claw and scratch for the 8th pick and then get blown out by the Cavs?? Is that what it means to win now.

So many variables are in this offseason it boggles a forumite's mind. But seriously, the talent available makes the mouth water and we wanna be on that ship sailing toward the post Lebron era, along with Wizards, Celtics, Bucks.
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Don't trade up or back, trade for another pick!

Post  deusXango on Fri Jun 16, 2017 9:34 pm

Murph wrote:
My game plan was to keep Reggie Jackson, hope he recovers physically and returns to his old form, and redevelops the pick-and-roll chemistry he had with Drummond two seasons ago, and build around that foundation.  But as Don has pointed out many times, that foundation is built on sand. Should Reggie recover, innovative offensive schemes should be incorporated to expand not only the team's effectiveness, but Reggie's game as well.

Reggie was a shadow of his former self last season.  He's not as quick as he was before the injury, and he still can't shoot, which is a problem in today's NBA.   And Drummond appears to lack the mental wherewithal to make the necessary improvements to his defense and offense for that matter, not to mention free throw shooting. Drummond is the major flaw we have that can't be addressed at the present, only hidden as best we can...limit his minutes and bench him when he starts sleeping in the game...we have Boban and a small ball center in Ellenson. Play all three regularly, until Drummond digs his head out of his ass (hopefully sooner than later).

And the players that SVG had collected to compliment the core all come with their own set of question marks.  KCP will command big bucks for his inconsistent shooting.  Marcus Morris is problem is the locker room.  Tobias Harris can't even start.  Jon Lauer should not be starting.  Stanley Johnson has been a big disappointment.  And SVG doesn't even attempt to develop Henry Ellenson. I wouldn't give up on our rookies just yet, but I'd try my best to trade Leuer. If he's all that, we should be able to get a late first round pick for him from a team with multiple picks. We're going to need that cheddar if Reggie returns to form and we resign KCP.  

On top of that, the draft looks bleak for the Pistons.  It appears that none of the excellent crop of PGs will be available at #12, so our choices are coming down to the lilly white Dukie, Luke Kennard, who might not be a good fit in the D, the 6'2 SG, Donovan Mitchell, who's even shorter than Ben Gordon, or a number of skinny 6'10 big men who will make Ellenson completely redundant. This is where thinking out the box comes in, with a little riverboat gambler and faith. I'd stay away from the Austin Daye clones (I read his name mentioned the other day leading me to believe some have forgotten what a BIG disappointment he was) and a 6' 2" SG is not what we need. I don't believe I'm typing this, but Luke Kennard may be the way to go...KCP has never had a suitable backup that could push him to be better.


So what to do?  At this point, I think SVG should give the Jackson-Drummond core one more year.  If they still can't return to form, then blow it all up at the end of this season.  But I hate the idea of blowing it up again, and beginning yet another 5 year rebuilding program, which is why I'd give them one more year, against all odds. I'm convinced...I'm getting old.

Draft Kennard and hope that he's the consistent outside shooter we've lacked since Billups and Hamilton, and hope that Pistons fans will somehow warm up to him.  Let KCP walk.  Trade Marcus Morris.  Start Tobias Harris for crying out loud.  And find a starting PF somewhere, whether it's Lauer, Ellenson or a free agent.  And then pray the Pistons can actually make it to the post season. If SVG's stubborn ass would only give the Ellenson/Harris/Drummond frontline a chance, we may find we have something special going for us. I'd bring Morris off the bench...he's too valuable to us right now and the bench is where his game dictates he belongs. I wouldn't give KCP a penny more than $10 million, if he demanded more, bye, bye!
Murph, I've given your thoughts a lot of consideration and the differences of opinion or agreement are posted. There is a trade on my mind that I'm sure can be made, if explored and there's any worth in the player I'd trade. The Lakers #28 or Utah's #30 for Jon Leuer. If that could be pulled off, then it's worth drafting Kennard (ugh!) at #12 and taking a chance on Jawun Evans with the late first round pick. My thinking is Reggie and KCP would have quality backups and if Reggie doesn't return to form, Ish and Jawun could run an up-tempo offense for 48 minutes and we still have that deadly shooter in our arsenal.
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Re: FORUM

Post  cool breeze on Fri Jun 16, 2017 2:27 pm

deusXango wrote:Tobias Harris needs to shoot the 3 ball better.
KCP stands on the perimeter waiting on the pass for the 3 point shot.
Henry Ellenson may or may not be the stretch 4 SVG is looking for.

These are some honest takes about the three most athletic and skilled players on the team, sans a high percentage 3 point shot, who're expected to play away from what made them attractive to colleges, scouts, and GM's, before coming to Detroit; in a Pistons uniform, playing for SVG today, one must shoot the 3 regardless of whatever contributions they may've cultivated over the years. Wise often said that KCP was a scorer and he could excel in an offense where he was allowed to score, but SVG was demanding that he shoot the long ball. That ain't for everybody! KCP has demonstrated that he's a capable passer, and both Harris and Ellenson have high I.Q.'s and understand that ball movement is essential in an effective offense, but again, the 3 ball rears it's ugly head. Stanley Johnson is a heady player also, but the intimidation for not shooting the way SVG demanded has caused him to regress more than anything else. Absent Drummond and Reggie, these are the core group players!!! IMHO KCP, Harris, Johnson, and Ellenson are not that bad as core groups go.

If shooting is so important to SVG, why can't he do more than strike out when it comes to evaluating the players who can help this team? Has anyone looked at the Larry Brown coached, Division I player, Sterling Brown, who was the best 3 point shooter in the country for the last 3 years and who's athleticism is off the charts. I'm wondering why he hasn't been invited to the Pistons pre-draft camp, because I know someone in the organization has heard of him, if they're serious about 3 point shooters. He can be purchased out of the 2nd round, where he's slated to go for some strange reason.

This team can't win based on popularity; it's been tried and it failed. We need players. Stubborn, micro-managing, coaching doesn't win here either. We can't keep looking away from the fact that SVG is in over his head performing as president/coach and the team is going to continue to flounder until some meaningful changes are made at the top. So far every player has been criticized for underperforming, to the owner who signs the checks, for mismanagement; everybody has found themselves under the bus, but SVG. He's the only thing right with the team. Let's learn how to make a silk purse out of a sows ear.

Pope standing beyond the 3 point line on the baseline waiting for a pass. Stanley Johnson waiting beyond the 3 point line waiting for a pass on the baseline. Reggie Bullock standing beyond the 3 point line waiting for a pass on the baseline. Why were all three of those players helplessly waiting possession after possession for a pass from the point guard? This is the offense with the director being coach Hardaway. Piston coaches loved the point guard driven offense and it looked so primitive all season long with no change. Players stand and wait out the shot clock so they can get back on defense and actually do something. We all have this image in our memories from this past season and the season before. Unlike any successful current team, our coaching staff applauds this lame offense.

It doesn't matter who the point guard is as long as they play the role of a one man show. Remember Spencer Dinwiddie? He was always regarded as point guard with an extremely high basketball IQ before he was coached by this Piston coaching staff. What did he do when given the chance to start several games as a rookie? He was not a one man show. Dinwiddie was a guy who did the right thing and got his players into proper spacing depending on how the opposing team was defending and then executed a pass early in the shot clock. Then he and the other players moved without the basketball and set screens for each other. The coaching staff didn't like it. He was not pushing the basketball enough they said. But the team did not have enough good defenders to stop opposing teams from scoring. How do you kick up the tempo when your defense fails you? Stan Van Gundy shut down Spencer Dinwiddie. He didn't like his style at all. But what did we see teams do in the finals this year? Did we see any possessions like the Pistons played with one player (point guard directing the action and trying to create all the action within the offense? The other players are baffled because they have no clue what the point guard is going to do from one moment to the other. Both Smith and Jackson are always out of control dribbling around trying to make something happen. Opposing teams just try to contain the point guard and that is all they need to do. How did this team get so stupid? How did they become so predictable? Would Isiah Thomas tolerate that crap for more than 2 minutes? He would not stand for that nonsense. We watched AAU simple minded street basketball all season long. It only took opposing teams 6 weeks to figure out that the Pistons had the lowest basketball IQ team in the NBA. From the end of November until the season ended it was just one big struggle to watch this team. Are our players incapable of playing a more complex style of offense? Can anyone defend in crunch time? Are the coaches capable of creating a better system? How could they sit back and not make changes all season long? I am referring to their system not the players. It was Stan Van Gundy and Tim Hardaway who created this offense based on a ball dominate point guard. How many times in the playoffs did several announcers say that point guard dominated offense will not work in he playoffs?

I bring up the biggest weakness of this team which is the fact that we have too many key players who do not have the God given quick recognition skills that all quality NBA players must possess to fuctin on either offense or defense. How about the coaching staff's recognition skills? It appears that they lack the basic fundamentals you need to help dysfunctional players get better. Never once did the coaches change the offensive system. Never once did the coaches demand more player movement, screening and less point guard dominance. How is this possible? How can grown men who get paid huge sums of money not do the right thing? It should not be hard to win a lot of regular season basketball games if the players have reasonable team chemistry and play hard on defense. Half of the time in the regular season, opposing players are really not into the games. They are tired and bored silly from so many games. But the attention span our coaches must be is pretty low but the players ability to concentrate is even worse. Why in hell would anyone pay a dime to see this team if they come back with the same players and coaches? People who attend games must go for reasons other than actually watching basketball. Sorry but you triggered my memory of game after game of dull boring basketball where nobody moved but the point guard and the 2 guard was always just standing around on the baseline. How do you ever have a rhythm if you play the 2 guard for the Detroit Pistons? We are waiting to see what happens in the draft. Weill we get a good player? Maybe it won't matter if the new player has to play in Stan Van Gundy's system. Stanley Johnson is frustrated with that system. It takes no brains to play in the system. Being that you seldom move on offense unless you are the point guard, how do you occupy your time? How do you find a rhythm unless you are moving with purpose to set screens to help other teammates or find openings. You are over played on the baseline and fake going towards the ball carrier and then cut back on the baseline. You look back expecting the pass because you are now open and ready to dunk it. But the point guard has his back to you and is still dribbling trying to make the pick and roll play work. The coaches watch with blank looks on their faces. I tell you something smells in Piston land. You don't bring back assistant coaches after two or three seasons if they fail to make any player better or fail to improve the way the players react on both offense and defense. Somebody is asleep at the wheel. Is it the owner?

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Lemonpen: Thanks for the trip down memory lane...

Post  Oracle on Fri Jun 16, 2017 2:04 pm

I'll tell you, even I forgot just how good this team was playing  lol

I remember that it was good, but after seeing Lemon re-post some of that stretch, now I remember just how extraordinary that run truly was.

@Balling, @Don,@DX - I do think there is a good chance that we do a deal with the Kings for the 10th pick, at least I'm hoping. In this draft, moving up 2 positions will make a huge difference in the available talent. 12th isn't too bad actually, but moving up may mean getting a solid future starter. I still like Mitchel at 12th, but not at 10th.
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Hometown bias or "significant" contribution?

Post  Sparma on Fri Jun 16, 2017 1:02 pm

Earl Austin in the St. Louis American:

"The 6’6” McCaw played several key minutes and made some big plays in helping the Warriors clinch their second title in three years. The rookie from UNLV looked like a seasoned veteran as Warriors’ coach Steve Kerr went to him early in the game when star players Kevin Durant and Klay Thompson picked up two early fouls and had to sit down.

McCaw responded with a very poised performance on the biggest stage in basketball as he finished with six points, three rebounds, one assist and one steal in 11 big minutes of action. He scored on a put back and an offensive drive in the fourth quarter, then fed series MVP Kevin Durant for a 3-pointer off a beautiful drive and kick. His savvy and decision-making were remarkable for such a young player who was thrown into the heat of a championship clinching game."


lemonpen wrote:
Sparma wrote:Reading a story about Jerry West moving to the Clippers (!?), I see the rumor that they hope to buy a 2nd round pick.

Last year, Golden State bought a 2nd round pick from Milwaukee, which became Patrick McCaw, a significant contributor in the finals.

So there's room for hope!

In the olden days a number of 1st round picks were sold for circa 3 mil (eg by Phoenix?), but those days are gone.

Would you define "significant".

According to the game flows it looks more like P. McCaw made several cameo appearances.
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A brief moment in time

Post  deusXango on Fri Jun 16, 2017 10:48 am

lemonpen wrote:Games 1-21

Who the F**K are these guys???
  Oracle on Wed Nov 30, 2016 11:45 pm
WOW, these guys are playing like they know they can't be beat!!!
I haven't seen a Piston team play this well since Chauncey, RIP, at, Big Ben & Sheed were handling their business!
What a game!!!
I hope they bottle this game and use it for the rest of the season, but we should have seen this coming from the last game.
This team is FUN to watch!!!

Fly
  Oracle on Fri Dec 02, 2016 11:39 pm
It's close to the end of the 3rd quarter, but I'm calling this game OVER... a Piston Win!
Wow, these guys have turned the corner HARD!!!
Wise, wake up, KCP is playing just like you and I always wanted him to, he's playing like a scorer and he's a damn good one! His light has been hidden by the Reggie/Drummond show!
Fly, I hope Reggie can do as good as Ish, because I don't want to lose the involvement of KCP, Harris, Morris and Leuer!

Ballin, slow your roll...
  Oracle on Sat Nov 26, 2016 3:32 pm
If your enthusiasm ever drives you in that direction, you need to call the fire department and have it extinguished! I have no idea why you would make leaps like that, but you absolutely should resist that.
This is a different situation. When you strive for a goal and NEVER see the results, that's one thing.
However, when you get the results you hoped for, then at least you know it's there, and the feeling should be enthusiasm, but the response has to be to nurture the positive result you achieved.
I've seen Morris score in bunches before... but never like last night!
I've seen KCP score in bunches before too, but never like the last few games!
Both of these guys showed such complete games in ways we want, and to get more of that requires a real proactive effort from the coach to keep it going.
That's the fear about Reggie's comeback. Do we use the whole team or do we only focus on Reggie and Drummond?
That's thinking, not emotion, that's the lesson Chauncey had to learn from Larry Brown to become elite and create an elite team.
The only question I'm asking is... Can SVG teach that lesson to Reggie!

Rest of Season

DX & Don
  Oracle on Mon Dec 05, 2016 5:03 pm
It wasn't just KCP & Drummond, it was Harris as well, all 3 performing well below what we're used to.
We have to have a team that gets everyone involved... PERIOD, or this won't work!
Reggie is being paid the big bucks and he's talented, but he also needs his coach to transform him into a guard that can run a team, not just the Drummond pick & roll!


The problem is still the problem.   tb  tb  tb
Thanks Lemon, that was a refreshing walk down memory lane (comments by one of the noteworthy voices on this forum) when the TEAM began to come together and play as the TEAM we knew we had...balanced, competitive, defensive, exciting, a well oiled machine offensively, and the players were having fun displaying their talents. There were no big I's and little U's. It's a damn shame it only lasted for 21 games. From game 22 forward, the season began to unravel, and as it was circling the drain, excuses, excuses, excuses, until we ended up hating 3/4's of the top four paid players and with a mediocre lottery pick. Where does the buck stop? Who's responsible for this cockamamie? Why do we ignore so many unforgivable decisions made?

Damn near every team in the playoffs played a rookie or two, putting forth their best efforts to advance to the top; I think that's significant, or noteworthy. I say this not as a jab or defense, but drawing attention to the fact that we could've used Boban (who's not a rookie) and Ellenson (with all his imaginary rookie flaws) throughout the season and quite possibly made the playoffs; why hide/waste talent like they present to a non-playoff team when it became obvious we weren't going anywhere, after our record fell below .500 and never to rise above it again? A "Frankenstein" starting lineup was thrown out there and no experience was given to essential players playing with the team, when it mattered, was a big waste, IMHO. All this done to satisfy/glorify the whims of a couple of players. No wonder the competitive spirit was sucked out of the TEAM.

It's not a matter of "we could've been better," but we damn sure could've performed better, had better decisions been made. Decisions aimed at the TEAM maintaining the momentum it had established in the first 21 games. That brief moment in time.
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Ummmmm

Post  lemonpen on Fri Jun 16, 2017 9:10 am

Sparma wrote:Reading a story about Jerry West moving to the Clippers (!?), I see the rumor that they hope to buy a 2nd round pick.

Last year, Golden State bought a 2nd round pick from Milwaukee, which became Patrick McCaw, a significant contributor in the finals.

So there's room for hope!

In the olden days a number of 1st round picks were sold for circa 3 mil (eg by Phoenix?), but those days are gone.

Would you define "significant".

According to the game flows it looks more like P. McCaw made several cameo appearances.
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This is how you turn a silk purse into a sows ear

Post  deusXango on Fri Jun 16, 2017 12:46 am

Tobias Harris needs to shoot the 3 ball better.
KCP stands on the perimeter waiting on the pass for the 3 point shot.
Henry Ellenson may or may not be the stretch 4 SVG is looking for.

These are some honest takes about the three most athletic and skilled players on the team, sans a high percentage 3 point shot, who're expected to play away from what made them attractive to colleges, scouts, and GM's, before coming to Detroit; in a Pistons uniform, playing for SVG today, one must shoot the 3 regardless of whatever contributions they may've cultivated over the years. Wise often said that KCP was a scorer and he could excel in an offense where he was allowed to score, but SVG was demanding that he shoot the long ball. That ain't for everybody! KCP has demonstrated that he's a capable passer, and both Harris and Ellenson have high I.Q.'s and understand that ball movement is essential in an effective offense, but again, the 3 ball rears it's ugly head. Stanley Johnson is a heady player also, but the intimidation for not shooting the way SVG demanded has caused him to regress more than anything else. Absent Drummond and Reggie, these are the core group players!!! IMHO KCP, Harris, Johnson, and Ellenson are not that bad as core groups go.

If shooting is so important to SVG, why can't he do more than strike out when it comes to evaluating the players who can help this team? Has anyone looked at the Larry Brown coached, Division I player, Sterling Brown, who was the best 3 point shooter in the country for the last 3 years and who's athleticism is off the charts. I'm wondering why he hasn't been invited to the Pistons pre-draft camp, because I know someone in the organization has heard of him, if they're serious about 3 point shooters. He can be purchased out of the 2nd round, where he's slated to go for some strange reason.

This team can't win based on popularity; it's been tried and it failed. We need players. Stubborn, micro-managing, coaching doesn't win here either. We can't keep looking away from the fact that SVG is in over his head performing as president/coach and the team is going to continue to flounder until some meaningful changes are made at the top. So far every player has been criticized for underperforming, to the owner who signs the checks, for mismanagement; everybody has found themselves under the bus, but SVG. He's the only thing right with the team. Let's learn how to make a silk purse out of a sows ear.
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Trying to dream

Post  Sparma on Thu Jun 15, 2017 11:23 pm

Reading a story about Jerry West moving to the Clippers (!?), I see the rumor that they hope to buy a 2nd round pick.

Last year, Golden State bought a 2nd round pick from Milwaukee, which became Patrick McCaw, a significant contributor in the finals.

So there's room for hope!

In the olden days a number of 1st round picks were sold for circa 3 mil (eg by Phoenix?), but those days are gone.
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Maybe Piston management will not trade our pick and instead try to move higher

Post  cool breeze on Thu Jun 15, 2017 10:21 pm

Dennis Smith seems to be in high demand at this time. Detroit was mentioned in one draft rumor with Smith along with 4 other teams ahead of the Pistons. If there has been an attempt or thought by SVG to secure this point guard, my respect for him goes way on up. As most of you know, Drummond has been tweeting again. Could he get his wish and move to Boston after all? If Detroit does make a trade involving Drummond it would be nice if we could not only move up in this draft with the trade but also snag another first round pick from Boston for next year's crop which also should be really full of good players. Time is ticking down now. I can't imagine SVG coming back with this same roster. He knows better.

It is going to be interesting to see how Golden State keeps all of those fantastic players happy. Will some of them decide to turn down a lot of money out of love for the game? Watching the celebration televised on NBA TV today, all of the players talked about how unique it is to play for coach Steve Kerr. The blend of the special quality of the individual players with this special coaching staff makes it fun for those guys to show up for practice. They have so much fun in practice according to Kevin Durant that he couldn't believe his eyes. It is so cool that the players can't wait for practice to start and they are grown men making millions of dollars. Kerr said before that he has tried to make things enjoyable while at the same time working hard at conditioning in practice. He said that he has created a blend of things he experienced with all of this previous coaches throughout his playing career that he thought brought a positive vib.. Will some of Golden State's premier players make a lot less than Pope next season?

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Swing For The Fences

Post  BallinD on Thu Jun 15, 2017 7:57 pm

Lottsa great prospects in the draft, from what I can see. Looks like there is a lotta talent out there. We need shooting, but truth be told, we need playmakers, rim protection and shooting. We're still hoping Ellensen will be our stretch 4, but we don't know if he is.

High-risk/High-reward is maybe Harry Giles, a straight beast who has had a few knee surgeries, but if 100% reminds me of a young Amare Stoudamire. hehe

It would be nice if we could get another pick as well. We still need Kennard or another shooter, there are a few out there. Can we trade up to get Monk and still snag Giles? I can dream.
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Re: FORUM

Post  cool breeze on Thu Jun 15, 2017 4:47 pm

BallinD wrote:What the hell is tanking.  At the end of the season, when the starters and 2/3rd of the so-called core were losing game after game, in uninspired fashion to high lottery teams like the magic, Kinick, Nets, 12 of 16, is it tanking to see what some of the fringe rotation players can give you??? I ask, how can the NBA Champs play a rookie, 2nd rd pick in the finals, how can the Bucks play rookie Brogdan, but if we play Ellensen or Gbinije, we're tanking???? What kind of Shyte is that?

And another thing, all this handwringing about small market teams can't compete.  I give you two teams, OKC and DET 2004 both squandered their shots at ongoing excellence.  OKC mgt couldn't find a way to keep their superteam together, Harden, Durant and Westbrook.  Pistons on the cheap (JoeD) let Mike James, Corliss, Memo go (with Dumars infamously saying anybody could do what James and Lindsey Hunter did, this right after the doofus drafted Darko.

Two small market teams that squandered their hard-earned chances to build a dynasty, if not a superteam.  I don't want to hear about how unfair it is that GS now has a dynasty.

It takes good players, good fortune and good management.


Thanks for never letting us forget what happened to the Pistons after Joe Dumars screwed up the works after our Pistons won the championship. I was shocked that Dumars became so full of himself at summer wanting to show the world again that he could win with a team with a low payroll. It was all about Joe and of course he wanted to carve out a job for his good buddy Lindsey Hunter. I still recall the post game interview with Mike James the night Detroit won the championship. He loved playing with that team and it showed. Joe gave James the cold shoulder very quickly which surprised Mike James as much as the fans who knew that his defense was one of the keys to Detroit winning it all. James, Corless and Memo were history and the Pistons never recovered although if not for the mental breakdown of Rasheed when he decided to argue with the ref instead of guarding his man out of the baseline out of bounds play, Detroit might still have won another championship> But Joe Dumars gets the idiot award not only for the Darko and Rodney White draft selections but his decision to part company with key players who won the championship. God how I want for forget what happened.

Now that the season is finally over it seems that the media is only interested in what Cleveland can do to improve their team so they can beat Golden State next year. Have all the other Eastern conference teams become farm teams for whatever team Labron decides to play on? We have the super teams and the cannon fodder. Can Labron demand that Indiana agree to a trade involving George or he might decide to play for the Lakers and leave the Eastern conference? George wants to become a Laker. What superstar wants to remain in the Eastern conference? Does Love have any say in his role in all of this Cleveland team building plan? Will he have to move to Siberia (aka Indiana) for the sake of Labron's legacy? This reminds me of the Kanas City Royals who became the farm team for the New York Yankees back in the day. What will the NBA Front office do to make the playoffs more exciting next year. Will everyone tune out everything but the finals series? Meanwhile, our Piston management team is building their team to make 8th place in the forgotten eastern conference. Will our resting veterans win 39 games and make the playoffs? SVG's team goals are lofty these days. Unless the NBA scrub teams like the Pistons greatly improve, I can see the day when the NBA crash lands and the television money disappears. Right now the owners are riding high but fans will eventually walk away and not get sucked into the smoke and mirrors game.

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You Were Not Wrong

Post  lemonpen on Thu Jun 15, 2017 4:23 pm

Games 1-21

Who the F**K are these guys???
  Oracle on Wed Nov 30, 2016 11:45 pm
WOW, these guys are playing like they know they can't be beat!!!
I haven't seen a Piston team play this well since Chauncey, RIP, at, Big Ben & Sheed were handling their business!
What a game!!!
I hope they bottle this game and use it for the rest of the season, but we should have seen this coming from the last game.
This team is FUN to watch!!!

Fly
  Oracle on Fri Dec 02, 2016 11:39 pm
It's close to the end of the 3rd quarter, but I'm calling this game OVER... a Piston Win!
Wow, these guys have turned the corner HARD!!!
Wise, wake up, KCP is playing just like you and I always wanted him to, he's playing like a scorer and he's a damn good one! His light has been hidden by the Reggie/Drummond show!
Fly, I hope Reggie can do as good as Ish, because I don't want to lose the involvement of KCP, Harris, Morris and Leuer!

Ballin, slow your roll...
  Oracle on Sat Nov 26, 2016 3:32 pm
If your enthusiasm ever drives you in that direction, you need to call the fire department and have it extinguished! I have no idea why you would make leaps like that, but you absolutely should resist that.
This is a different situation. When you strive for a goal and NEVER see the results, that's one thing.
However, when you get the results you hoped for, then at least you know it's there, and the feeling should be enthusiasm, but the response has to be to nurture the positive result you achieved.
I've seen Morris score in bunches before... but never like last night!
I've seen KCP score in bunches before too, but never like the last few games!
Both of these guys showed such complete games in ways we want, and to get more of that requires a real proactive effort from the coach to keep it going.
That's the fear about Reggie's comeback. Do we use the whole team or do we only focus on Reggie and Drummond?
That's thinking, not emotion, that's the lesson Chauncey had to learn from Larry Brown to become elite and create an elite team.
The only question I'm asking is... Can SVG teach that lesson to Reggie!

Rest of Season

DX & Don
  Oracle on Mon Dec 05, 2016 5:03 pm
It wasn't just KCP & Drummond, it was Harris as well, all 3 performing well below what we're used to.
We have to have a team that gets everyone involved... PERIOD, or this won't work!
Reggie is being paid the big bucks and he's talented, but he also needs his coach to transform him into a guard that can run a team, not just the Drummond pick & roll!


The problem is still the problem.   tb  tb  tb
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DX

Post  Oracle on Thu Jun 15, 2017 4:08 pm

deusXango wrote:"I don't believe for one second that Ellenson can beat Leuer out of a job on day one of this coming season, likely not at all for a year or two."-Oracle

What was all the praise for Henry Ellenson for, before the draft last year, if he can't beat a Jon Leuer out of a job? What does that say about the brain trust doing the pre-draft evaluations? It's almost like we drafted another Darko. The latest "Trump style hype" is the draft ends at #11 and we're stuck with #12...if we had #11 the hype would be, the quality players are only 10 deep, so we need to trade #11 for a veteran.

So, our rookie was sluffing off in practice? Henry was expected to be so good that he couldn't have bad games against "lessor" talent? What astounding games did Leuer have that set him above not only Ellenson, but Harris as well? It's refreshing to know just how much passion mediocrity can generate. I just can't root for the determined ordinary.
This is where wishing for something simply can't make it so.

Is Ellenson potentially more talented that Leuer... YES!

Does he have more tools... YES!

You fail to see the argument I'm making, which is that Ellenson is not better than Leuer right now, the difference lies in physical body development and experience.

Again, we can't see into practice, we can't see Leuer kicking Ellenson's ass or vice versa, but the players and coach do see these things.

We can guess, but the natural process needs to play out, and so far he hasn't beat Leuer out of a job, and I know it's popular to blame the coach, but we really don't have any information.
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Look into your heart

Post  deusXango on Thu Jun 15, 2017 3:52 pm

"I don't believe for one second that Ellenson can beat Leuer out of a job on day one of this coming season, likely not at all for a year or two."-Oracle

What was all the praise for Henry Ellenson for, before the draft last year, if he can't beat a Jon Leuer out of a job? What does that say about the brain trust doing the pre-draft evaluations? It's almost like we drafted another Darko. The latest "Trump style hype" is the draft ends at #11 and we're stuck with #12...if we had #11 the hype would be, the quality players are only 10 deep, so we need to trade #11 for a veteran.

So, our rookie was sluffing off in practice? Henry was expected to be so good that he couldn't have bad games against "lessor" talent? What astounding games did Leuer have that set him above not only Ellenson, but Harris as well? It's refreshing to know just how much passion mediocrity can generate. I just can't root for the determined ordinary.
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Riddle me this...

Post  Oracle on Thu Jun 15, 2017 3:24 pm

Murph wrote:So what to do? At this point, I think SVG should give the Jackson-Drummond core one more year. If they still can't return to form, then blow it all up at the end of this season. But I hate the idea of blowing it up again, and beginning yet another 5 year rebuilding program, which is why I'd give them one more year, against all odds.
Good to see you back Murph.

This makes the most sense, IMO, but why do so many not believe this. Let's review some nasty FACTS,

Prior to last season, for most of the year, we had the #1 starting lineup in the league, and finished in the top 5! Now, that appears to be some kind of fluke to most here, a freak of nature of something.

Then this past season, due to injury and management/coaching's response to that injury, we take a 7 game step back, but several amazing things came out of this season that wouldn't have happened if not for that injury to the key driver in our offense.

1. Boban emerged as a viable backup for Drummond. Sure SVG should have known this, but it's solidified now.
2. Harris bloomed in spite of unfairly being consigned to coming off the bench. His effect is now widely recognized, but his position needs to be SF with Morris coming off the bench, IMO.
3. Ish Smith had proved to be a critical change of pace guard, and defends better than I thought he could, and better than the physically gifted Reggie
4. KCP who had very good games, but never really got his own shot, became a passer and shot creator so good that even when everybody knew he was getting the ball, they couldn't stop him.

What I see is a team that needs two things to happen, and both should happen for the exact same reason... YOUNG!

SVG's management and formation of this team is in its infancy, mistake free development is a fantasy! The step back this year wasn't that big when looking at the big picture. It's only logical that he tightens up his game and produces a better ball club next season, one that is more focused and ready to win.

The players will get better.
1. Boban will work on his lateral movement, but better, SVG will work on how to best use him on defense, he can't be played like Drummond or Baynes.
2. Harris is good, but he needs to be more confident in his 3 point shooting. I don't have a lot of hope for his defense, and that may be another factor in him coming off the bench, but any improvement there would be very helpful
3. KCP now needs to pull together the improvements he's made in the last 3 years. If he stays, he needs to find a blend of midrange and 3 point shooting, defy the coach a bit and don't always stay camped out on the 3 point line, do his RIP imitation and get better shots. Finally hone his shot creation skills and mesh it with the rest of his game.

Other areas of improvement:
1. Ish now knows the team a lot better, he should see a jump in performance similar to Harris.
2. The pipeline of rookies should start to pay off with Ellenson getting a real rotation shot.
3. My sleeper pick for explosion is Stanley Johnson! I expect a BIG jump for him. He knows the league and players a lot better, he'll compensate for NBA players speed, and his offensive game takes a leap.

So SVG just had his core team for two years, one successful and the other a step back with a legitimate excuse. A plan 3 years in the making, now some want to blow this up without not only better plan, but no plan at all... I just don't get it.

Also, why the panic? Nobody is going to beat the Warriors any time soon, and we'll see how Cleveland resets, so we do have a little time to tinker and get better.
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Ballin...

Post  Oracle on Thu Jun 15, 2017 2:49 pm

I saw that, and it was really refreshing to see a coach play a rook in the closeout game of the finals... Wow, that doesn't happen very often.

But you say this without ANY information about the real case. What did that rookie show in practice? We all know Ellenson had some good games against lesser talent, but some bad ones as well. He didn't exactly blow anybody away in DLeague action, but he did show some promise. After a full season he got a chance in the closing games of the season and looked good, but you can't put too much faith in those performances, hell Austin Daye looked good when the pressure of making the playoffs was gone.

I don't believe for one second that Ellenson can beat Leuer out of a job on day one of this coming season, likely not at all for a year or two, but that's not going to stop the "Backup QB" syndrome from coming into full effect. It's one of those things where we don't know anything, but we know everything at the same time. BTW, Gbinije was doing his best impression of another fan favorite, both of whom were walking MASH units most of the season.
BallinD wrote:What the hell is tanking.  At the end of the season, when the starters and 2/3rd of the so-called core were losing game after game, in uninspired fashion to high lottery teams like the magic, Kinick, Nets, 12 of 16, is it tanking to see what some of the fringe rotation players can give you??? I ask, how can the NBA Champs play a rookie, 2nd rd pick in the finals, how can the Bucks play rookie Brogdan, but if we play Ellensen or Gbinije, we're tanking???? What kind of Shyte is that?

And another thing, all this handwringing about small market teams can't compete.  I give you two teams, OKC and DET 2004 both squandered their shots at ongoing excellence.  OKC mgt couldn't find a way to keep their superteam together, Harden, Durant and Westbrook.  Pistons on the cheap (JoeD) let Mike James, Corliss, Memo go (with Dumars infamously saying anybody could do what James and Lindsey Hunter did, this right after the doofus drafted Darko.

Two small market teams that squandered their hard-earned chances to build a dynasty, if not a superteam.  I don't want to hear about how unfair it is that GS now has a dynasty.

It takes good players, good fortune and good management.

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Tanking and SuperTeams

Post  BallinD on Thu Jun 15, 2017 2:16 pm

What the hell is tanking.  At the end of the season, when the starters and 2/3rd of the so-called core were losing game after game, in uninspired fashion to high lottery teams like the magic, Kinick, Nets, 12 of 16, is it tanking to see what some of the fringe rotation players can give you??? I ask, how can the NBA Champs play a rookie, 2nd rd pick in the finals, how can the Bucks play rookie Brogdan, but if we play Ellensen or Gbinije, we're tanking???? What kind of Shyte is that?

And another thing, all this handwringing about small market teams can't compete.  I give you two teams, OKC and DET 2004 both squandered their shots at ongoing excellence.  OKC mgt couldn't find a way to keep their superteam together, Harden, Durant and Westbrook.  Pistons on the cheap (JoeD) let Mike James, Corliss, Memo go (with Dumars infamously saying anybody could do what James and Lindsey Hunter did, this right after the doofus drafted Darko.

Two small market teams that squandered their hard-earned chances to build a dynasty, if not a superteam.  I don't want to hear about how unfair it is that GS now has a dynasty.

It takes good players, good fortune and good management.

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I know how the Pistons can get those 2 2nd round Philly picks. Honestly.

Post  Sparma on Thu Jun 15, 2017 2:05 pm

I'm pretty sure they'd trade those two picks for our 1st rounder next year. We likely wouldn't do that, and shouldn't. But I'm guessing that's about the market value for those two picks.


cool breeze wrote:Does anyone know how the Pistons can get those picks. I see Tyler Dorsey sitting deep in the 2nd round. How this man is not listed in the first round is crazy. He is an outstanding basketball player who can make tough outside shots in the biggest pressure situations. His basketball IQ is really high. His defense is adequate. There is no way that Dorsey would not be a huge improvement for the Pistons next season. He is a rotation player now. The only reason why Dorsey is not listed as a first round pick is the fact that he played in the West coast at Oregon. This guy has all the tools to become an outstanding NBA player. What if the Pistons did trade the 12th pick but came up with two 2nd round selections in this strong draft. I don't see much of a separation between many of the 2nd round guys listed on NBA Draft Net and the first rounders after the 11th spot. I don't want to give away the 12th pick but if this Piston management is determined to do so, they better come up with at least 2 second round picks or they need to be fired before training camp. There is no way that Dorsey will not make the rotation on some NBA team next season. His potential far exceeds KCP. Dorsey has been a key player on a really good college team now for two seasons. His clutch offense and defense is well known in the PAC12 circles. Maybe he still will be drafted in the first round but if not, we need to get two picks before this draft. Draft a power forward/center and Dorsey. I see that Indiana's big man has slid down into the 2nd round. This is not the typical draft year. There will be some strong competition to get those picks from Philly though and Detroit doesn't have much to offer any team. What a shame if nothing happens to add talent and smarts to the Piston franchise. Players with the low basketball IQs migrate to the Pistons with the blessing of Piston management. There will be more arm flopping on the sidelines by SVG for sure if he brings back the same crew.
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