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Super Bowl

Post  lemonpen on Thu Jan 12, 2017 1:11 pm

WTF wrote:Not really the CB's on all those plays were victims of face masking,  The could not get there heads turned because they were being faced mask and the contact and arrival of the balls were all but exact.  

As I said we may not have won any of those games all I want to see is a fair fight.  I forgot the no call on Jones that ball looked very catch-able to me if you're not being held.  Man I saw late hits on Stafford not call, blocking from behind calls on a couple of those Seattle runs

The issue with Bolden was a mystery to me but as far as I can remember he's been nothing but an outstanding citizen as far as the field this season and his career.  I felt that there was something going on that he got those call, certainly didn't help our cause but there was something to it.   I see that behavior out of Jones and Tate before Bolden so it was shocking.

In in case I'm still proud of my Lions and hopefully as always maybe next year.  I guess I'll see a Super Bowl before I die tb

This is the first in a long time that I feel ok about the Leo's. We had a fair amount of kids out there this time, as opposed to a bunch of past-their-prime vets picked up in free agency. Kids improve. Quinn will get more kids that hopefully can contribute. Before you know it we might really mount a charge. But, they better hurry because I too am past my prime.
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Re: FORUM

Post  cool breeze on Wed Jan 11, 2017 11:52 pm

WTF wrote:Okay you all know I hate that back to back oh woe they tired crap when our team is as young as it is. We didn't make those excuses for CB and RIP or the Bad Boys. You know why? Because they went out won the damn games. Flip and LB rotated players like they only had 8 players on the roster.

What is this Harris trade scenario crap I'm seeing?

No kidding WTF! I admit that I was a little pissed off when reading that nonsense about a potential Harris trade with Oklahoma. First off I agree with ZEKE when he stated on NBA TV that he was curious as to why SVG would ever decide to make the player with the highest scoring average come off the bench when he is clearly better than the guy selected to replace him. Harris has been the most consistent two play player this team has had since he arrived. Harris has great character so he accepted the role of coming off the bench and the coach and press created a spin stating that now Harris as an easier time scoring with the 2nd unit. The only reason why that could be true is the fact that Reggie Jackson is not a guy other players can depend on as far as even touching the basketball in the half court offense. You have to be Andre Drummond to get Reggie's passes. This team has too many starters who cannot defend well and the Piston offense is designed for players with low basketball IQs. This coach needs to find time for practice and he must create more complex offensive plays so guys like Harris can get the ball off screens for open looks. The coach must establish some kind of control over his scatterbrain point guards who can't run a half court offense and they can't defend even average point guards let alone guys like Wall. So it appears some idiot dreamed up a great trade for the Thunder that includes both Harris and Johnson for bottom tier players. I do fear that Van Gundy could pull a Joe Dumars deal like the Knight-Middleton deal. Harris is a young player who will get a lot better in my opinion. Johnson just turned 20 years old and Stan Van Gundy needs to adjust his defense and offense to get Stanley a bigger role. Some might disagree but I know Stanley Johnson. He is going to be a real stud NBA player. That might take 2 more years and maybe fans just can't wait that long.

Oracle made a statement that Henry E. is not ready for steady for the big time yet. How will he get ready if he doesn't play? What I saw relating to Ellenton in this last game is the fact that he moved faster and had more energy and made the right decisions in the Piston defensive rotations than any of the other big men. Henry has a high basketball IQ. He is an old time type player. He can shoot the basketball well but needs that playing time to get his timing down. It is insane that Henry is not playing at least 7 minutes a game especially when we continue to see the older established players getting their butts kicked night after night. I like all the players but believe there is room for Henry every night. I am sure that Stan Van Gundy will look at the game film and figure that out as well. Henry is not afraid to play this game. That much is clear. I also want to see more of Boban. I loved the way that 2nd unit played in the first half last night. They were having fun and I was having fun until the last half when Ellenson didn't get in the game. Go Henry!! Don't take any more crap from the older vets.

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Can We Stop Babying These MF's

Post  WTF on Wed Jan 11, 2017 11:14 pm

Okay you all know I hate that back to back oh woe they tired crap when our team is as young as it is. We didn't make those excuses for CB and RIP or the Bad Boys. You know why? Because they went out won the damn games. Flip and LB rotated players like they only had 8 players on the roster.

What is this Harris trade scenario crap I'm seeing?
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Perfect Play

Post  WTF on Wed Jan 11, 2017 11:07 pm

Not really the CB's on all those plays were victims of face masking, The could not get there heads turned because they were being faced mask and the contact and arrival of the balls were all but exact.

As I said we may not have won any of those games all I want to see is a fair fight. I forgot the no call on Jones that ball looked very catch-able to me if you're not being held. Man I saw late hits on Stafford not call, blocking from behind calls on a couple of those Seattle runs

The issue with Bolden was a mystery to me but as far as I can remember he's been nothing but an outstanding citizen as far as the field this season and his career. I felt that there was something going on that he got those call, certainly didn't help our cause but there was something to it. I see that behavior out of Jones and Tate before Bolden so it was shocking.

In in case I'm still proud of my Lions and hopefully as always maybe next year. I guess I'll see a Super Bowl before I die tb
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Pistons' Reggie Jackson treated for dehydration after loss to Kings

Post  Oracle on Wed Jan 11, 2017 8:41 pm

I knew it, something was wrong!

When I said almost all of the starters were at 30 minutes, the one that wasn't was Reggie, he was at 21 minutes at the end of the 3rd.

I wondered at the time, but I know he has stamina issues due to asthma and recently conditioning.
http://www.mlive.com/pistons/index.ssf/2017/01/pistons_reggie_jackson_treated_1.html wrote:SACRAMENTO, Calif. -- It's become nearly an every-game routine for reporters covering the Detroit Pistons over the last two seasons.

You walk in and see Reggie Jackson sitting in front of his locker, oftentimes there ready, waiting to speak to the media. Jackson's become the unofficial spokesman for the team, particularly when others prefer not to talk to the press, so it was a bit odd to walk into the Pistons' locker room Tuesday at Golden 1 Center and not see him.

A Pistons spokesman told reporters late Tuesday Jackson was treated for dehydration after a 100-94 loss to the Sacramento Kings, a game in which he played his usual 30-plus minutes. He was also coming off a season-high 47 minutes Sunday in a double-overtime win over Portland.
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They could smell the fatigue

Post  Oracle on Wed Jan 11, 2017 4:15 pm

Our guys ran out of gas, plain and simple, but I did see a lot of good things. SVG really hurt us, at the end of the 3rd quarter most of the starters were at or near 30 minutes... yes, 30 minutes!!! With a back to back looming against two playoff teams, coming off an physically draining game against Portland, what was he thinking. I knew it was going to be a struggle in the 4th!

1. Dre was behaving like a real center. Kings players are still ducking for fear of getting blocked!
2. It's back to morphing into the Harris/KCP show again, and that bodes well for us. Not sure why yet, but ball movement seems to work better when they're more the focus of the offense.
3. KCP's defense is a bit weaker this year, but Stanley is picking up the scraps! I still wish we could see them both starting, but Stanley isn't nearly ready yet.

There was some bad.

1. Reggie regressed a bit in this game(see Lemon's post), and his attacking lacked effectiveness. In the 4th he attempted to get the easy stuff instead of working it to just score.
2. Stanley needs to lose weight to get some hops! Not since Stuckey has the rim been such a Piston enemy.
3. Ellenson is not physically ready for the NBA, but that doesn't mean he doesn't need minutes. Opinions differ here(see Don's post), but I would rather have him build up strength to be ready for more minutes next year. However, if Leuer is out for an extended period, that would justify getting him involved, but slowly.

I also thought SVG failed to use Boban enough. Baynes is just a big slug, Boban has far superior movement, but I understand that SVG NEEDS to showcase Baynes to make sure he gets an offer and leaves(see Ballin's post).

This loss hurt, and it gets no easier with a back to back coming.
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Re: FORUM

Post  lemonpen on Wed Jan 11, 2017 4:13 pm

BallinD wrote:Great defensive effort by the big fella.  7 blocks.  Never thought I'd see that from Dre and that shows that he can do it when he is engaged and the stars align.  Bravo! Tobias also had two blocks to go with his 18 points.

Good D by SJ, but jeez, he still!!!! needs to learn to make a layup, criminy!!! 1-6, two blown bunnies!??? Somebody needs to help him fix that, screw his jump shot, put him  in the layup line drill for a couple of weeks till he gets that.  Even Kelser said.  "He should have dunked that.  He needs to elevate and dunk those."

Only 3 assists from Rjax.  Is this becoming a trend?

We let one get away, partly because our closeout execution is still a work in progress and partly because our endgame strategy is RJax to the rescue!!

Is it just me, or is Boban looking like the better option than Baynes?  Maybe SVG is playing him in prep for the "big trade?"

With Leuer in there, we would have won this one.  DeMarcus is just so skilled and dominant, it is sick, but Leuer might have been better at staying with him on the perimeter and we know his rotations on D would have been solid.

Tolliver showed up and showed out.  Way to go, but not against us, big fella.  He was a huge difference maker, along with koufus.

KCP is looking more catch and shoot than ever as his game continues to mature.  Bravo!

Down the stretch, we will ride the cold hand till the wheels fall off.  Why not go to KCP as we were attempting to stave off defeat. Not smart, low BBall IQ. Everybody knew RJax would pass to himself and hoist bombs to try and win it hero style!

I didn't read you post until an hour after posting myself. Dang, looks like we saw the exact same thing.
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Sactown

Post  lemonpen on Wed Jan 11, 2017 2:03 pm

Credit where due: Andre was defending like a true All Star C.

Why don't coaches call timeouts after their own team makes a big run, when you can see their production starting to fall off, and before the other team hacks into the lead. Gotta say SVG looked a day late and a dollar short in the 4th.

Reggie, Reggie, Reggie. When will the guy look like a real court general. It's like he has absolutely zero awareness of teammates heating up. Dude plays with tunnel vision.

Stan the Man had a really good defensive night. I gotta ask, what's up with Stanley's "ups" (or lack thereof). Boy, Ill bet Rudy Gay hasn't blocked a shot like that in the last 5 years. Gay got all swoll up and manly afterward. Too funny.

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Perfect Play

Post  lemonpen on Wed Jan 11, 2017 1:36 pm

Sparma wrote:Seattle's TD in the first catch was definitely a face mask, as shown and discussed (later) by the broadcast crew.  I guess with the offsetting penalties, 4th down would have been replayed.  That's the call that could have made a big difference.

In addition, the pass interference should have been called on the Marvin Jones miss.  As Chris Collinsworth (himself a great receiver) said, the receiver will complain that it would have been catchable had I not gotten tugged.  He (neutral observer) also said Detroit got some calls against them.  The non-call on pass interference was less clear than the face mask (which was just missed, I guess), but it should have been called.

In all though, the Lions were beaten (and beat themselves) fair and square, even if the refs did add their bit.   Crucial drops, dumb personal fouls, made a big difference.  And they had no answers to Seattle's running game.  They were in it as of the half, then got crushed.

It's uncanny though how often refereeing has hurt the Lions over the years.  No respect.  The bad reffing leads to bad results, but it's also true that years of bad results provide some licence (unfortunately for us) for unfair reffing, especially on the road.  


lemonpen wrote:
WTF wrote:
Oracle wrote:Stafford is 1000 times more mobile than I've ever seen him! Athletic isn't a word I would use, but adequate runner is something he NEVER was, and that, IMO, helps him on scrambles and just moving around in the pocket as well.

Zenner is going to need some help, but he's better than I expected.

BTW Lemon, you're absolutely correct that the competition stiffened and we couldn't matchup with that level of play, but it's also true that Stafford's finger likely limited their comeback ability but it certainly wasn't that big a factor.
lemonpen wrote:Come on now, who really believes ref’s and a broke digit are responsible for the Leo’s decline.  
We were making hay squeaking by tomato cans then the playoffs began 3 weeks early.  In the last 4 games we were dominated by 80% of the NFC playoff contingent not named Lions, and subsequently exposed in virtually all phases of the game.  (kudos to our kicking combo)
So, does that make us the worst of the playoff qualifiers, or the best of those who didn’t.  Either way it is a good start for the new GM.

With that said, I am totally satisfied with our outlook.
- The new scouting / player evaluation system found many young contributors.
- An O-line chocked full of rookies improved as the year progressed.
- We have a kicking game that is a difference maker.
- Stafford has been taught the value of a possession.

I'm not saying they would have still won these games but......very questionable calls and non calls that all but shifted the momentum in favor of the opposition.   I honestly didn't see pass interference but did see blatant face masking on 2 touchdown plays the first one definitely shifted the momentum.  

Like I said the Lions didn't help themselves with all the dropped passes, but damn if calls on both sides of the ball weren't in Seattle's favor.  

Now I just hope the Lions get their run game together next season and pick up another WR.  I like Bolden, Tate, Jones and Ebron just seem they were clutch enough.   We need a Moore or Johnson type wide out and another Sanders wouldn't hurt.  

As long as our cornerbacks get caught with their backs to the throw, trying to make a blind play on the receivers hands when they THINK the ball will arrive you can expect a flag.  It's the "Oh Sh**, I've been beaten like a drum" technique.  Slay is the only CB capable of finding his man AND the ball.   Bad calls, I think not.

Funny that you should highlight that play.  It's interesting how we see thing so differently.  Yeah sure there was a facemask, but fact of the matter is that there is one by an offensive player on virtually every stiff arm.  But back to that particular play.  In my view that single play between two guys tells one all that is needed to know about the stark difference between the two teams.  It alone tells you why the call, or missed call ment NOTHING to changing the outcome.  

On that play, in your estimation which guy wanted the ball more than ANYONE in the stadium, and was willing to go to great lengths to just get a hand on it, let alone actually create a playoff highlight.   I'm looking at our DB and asking why he didn't put forth anywhere near that kind of effort.  
The difference in effort and desire was evident in every phase of the game.  We needed 20 flags to fall in our favor.


Last edited by lemonpen on Wed Jan 11, 2017 2:05 pm; edited 1 time in total
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WTF?? Another Needless Loss

Post  BallinD on Wed Jan 11, 2017 12:18 pm

Great defensive effort by the big fella.  7 blocks.  Never thought I'd see that from Dre and that shows that he can do it when he is engaged and the stars align.  Bravo! Tobias also had two blocks to go with his 18 points.

Good D by SJ, but jeez, he still!!!! needs to learn to make a layup, criminy!!! 1-6, two blown bunnies!??? Somebody needs to help him fix that, screw his jump shot, put him  in the layup line drill for a couple of weeks till he gets that.  Even Kelser said.  "He should have dunked that.  He needs to elevate and dunk those."

Only 3 assists from Rjax.  Is this becoming a trend?

We let one get away, partly because our closeout execution is still a work in progress and partly because our endgame strategy is RJax to the rescue!!

Is it just me, or is Boban looking like the better option than Baynes?  Maybe SVG is playing him in prep for the "big trade?"

With Leuer in there, we would have won this one.  DeMarcus is just so skilled and dominant, it is sick, but Leuer might have been better at staying with him on the perimeter and we know his rotations on D would have been solid.

Tolliver showed up and showed out.  Way to go, but not against us, big fella.  He was a huge difference maker, along with koufus.

KCP is looking more catch and shoot than ever as his game continues to mature.  Bravo!

Down the stretch, we will ride the cold hand till the wheels fall off.  Why not go to KCP as we were attempting to stave off defeat. Not smart, low BBall IQ. Everybody knew RJax would pass to himself and hoist bombs to try and win it hero style!
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Re: FORUM

Post  cool breeze on Wed Jan 11, 2017 10:39 am

Phil1980boy wrote:These are the kind Of losses that come back to bite you at the end of the year when you want to make the playoffs or get home court in the playoffs.


The Pistons still have major defensive issues. Every time Drummonds went to go help Sacramento got A easy lay-up..


The Pistons defense is really bad. The Pistons really needed John tonight. His defense and rebounding were missed.


When the Pistons learn how to do the little things well these guys will start to see how easy it can be to close games when your team has as much talent on it as this Pistons team does.

Yes Phil you are correct this was another game where two lottery teams fought it out and made a good game of it. But I admit that in the first half I thought our Pistons had turned the corner and might show they belong in the playoffs.

This was a fun game to watch in the first half. The coaching was excellent. Henry Ellenson proved that he belongs in the rotation regardless of the situation with Lauer. He was extremely active on both ends and especially on defense. It was the 2nd unit in the first half that got this team going in the right direction. Van Gundy brought Johnson in early giving much needed rest for Morris. Morris is much more effective when the coach reduces his minutes. Johnson got 3 steals in the first half and did some powerful banging in the paint to make sure the Kings got no 2nd chance points as well. The point guards both played well using both sides of the court on offense and the critical stat was that the Pistons had only 3 turnovers in the first half. It should be noted that both Smith and Jackson stayed in front of their assigned man preventing easy penetration to the hoop for the entire first half. How refreshing was that? Bringing in Ellenson, Johnson and Boban showed guts by SVG and it paid off because when Morris returned he was much more active on defense and played really well on offense. More competition for playing time brings more effort by everyone and the pistons overall effort in the first half proved this point.

The 2nd half was the complete opposite for the Pistons. Van Gundy shortened the rotation. Both point guards failed to direct their team the right way in the half court offense. Both point guards were ineffective defenders with Reggie Jackson winning the crown for the worst defender on the court in the 2nd half. It was hard to watch him play. The guy who played so masterfully on both ends in the first half lost this game all by himself in the 2nd. Mistake after mistake on defense by Jackson cost this Piston team a huge lead. Then Jackson and Smith played the one on one game failing to get the ball to the weak side where Pope was unguarded much of the time. And Pope had the hot hand. That shows me a lot right there. When the point guards fail to notice who has the hot hand and insist on dribbling around forcing plays that were not working on the strong side opposing teams always get a little more confidence because they know that our Piston point guards play with a low basketball IQ and are not disciplined type NBA players. Very little of those mistakes were made by Smith. Most of the mental issues involved Reggie Jackson on both ends of the court. He must get a lot smarter for this team to move forward in a positive way.

Stan Van Gundy shortened the bench in the 2nd half. Instead of bringing back the same group that secured a nice lead and changed the overall team chemistry because their energy was so noticeably greater than the players they replaced, the Pistons started to fall apart. The Kings turned the tables with their bench players instead. The Piston offense looked completely different with the starters. Everyone started going one on one and that is what got this team into so much trouble with that long string of loses before the last two wins.

The Kings are trying to get a high position in the lottery and management is trying like hell to build up the loses much like Miami is doing. Our team is different. I like their attitude a lot because even though our Pistons are losing, they are playing hard. The problem still remains that the skill players and mostly the point guards play looking like they have low basketball IQs. There is no question about it. And the other starters with the exception of Drummond seem to melt when their shots do not fall. When the shots do not fall, the only guy on the floor who sets screens is Drummond. The rest of the starters are content to just keep shooting their jump shots even though they are missing a lot. And the fact that no plays such as double screens seem to happen to free the hot hand player who was Pope in this game, falls on Pope's teammates and the head coach.

Stan Van Gundy has nothing to lose by inserting Ellenson directly into the rotation now and he needs to play Henry in both halves. This guy runs the court like Arron Gordon. He is special because he is big and yet he has high energy running around disruption the opponents flow when he is on defense and he runs the court fast and is always moving on offense. We need more of Henry Ellenson and we need to add more players like him.

Finally I must mention Andre Drummond. Those of us who watch the games, know the potential of Andre Drummond if he decides that he wants to be the best big man defender in the NBA. His potential is off the charts and he showed some of it in this game with all of those challenges at the rim. He was helping and blocking shots all night long. He played every quarter hard. The problem occurred when he helped other teammates and got the block, his teammates were standing around and watching the big guy work instead of digging in and filling Drummond's space when he helped. So Andre's teammates betrayed him in this game. they rested while he fought. Now if Andre could only bring that kind of smarts and energy in every game he could become the team leader and demand accountability from those teammates who let him down in this game.

Reggie Jackson consideres himself to be the team leader. That will never happen and his teammates will tune him out if something doesn't change in Reggie's head soon. Jackson played a piss poor mental game on the court in the 2nd half. He should have sized things up and learned from his mistakes but he kept right on making those same mistakes. Reggie made one big 3 point shot towards the end but his mental errors on defense and his management of the offense caused a lot of his teammates to doubt him. The fact is that Reggie could become a much better defender if he makes the proper effort. And he could become a better NBA point guard if he gets a lot smarter. So there is hope with Reggie.

What about the coaching staff? What are they thinking and talking about in the coaches office? It would be nice to be a fly on the wall and listen to their comments made in private. Stan Van Gundy is not stupid. His coaches are not stupid. Will they come together and finally decide that it is time to develop Ellenson and Johnson more? Right now Johnson is the 5th option on offense is not supposed to think about scoring. His job is to play solid defense, rebound, set screens and pass the basketball to the open guy. I see his future on the offensive end as a hard driver to the basket and either making those easy shots he missed in this game or finding Drummond on the opposite side of the rim. Ellenson is so mobile for a big guy and he has always been a high percentage shooter in very area of the floor. He just needs minutes and Ellenson could transform this team into a powerhouse. I didn't see any of the opposing defenders who were able to keep up with Ellenson last night. I hope Stan Van Gundy watches the game film. Henry will start draining shots and he is showing that he has the ability to defend a lot better than the teammates who are currently playing ahead of him. Perhaps this road team will be more interesting at least if Ellenson does stick in the rotation. Play the young guys and still try to make the playoffs. If that doesn't happen, Detroit could get a nice first round draft pick.

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Detroit Pistons going back to the NBA Lottery

Post  Phil1980boy on Wed Jan 11, 2017 4:07 am

These are the kind Of losses that come back to bite you at the end of the year when you want to make the playoffs or get home court in the playoffs.


The Pistons still have major defensive issues. Every time Drummonds went to go help Sacramento got A easy lay-up..


The Pistons defense is really bad. The Pistons really needed John tonight. His defense and rebounding were missed.


When the Pistons learn how to do the little things well these guys will start to see how easy it can be to close games when your team has as much talent on it as this Pistons team does.
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Lions

Post  Oracle on Tue Jan 10, 2017 6:29 pm

There is a very well known reason we keep getting on the wrong end of calls... We aren't good enough to play home games in the playoffs.

When we get there, we're playing on foreign turf and of course the refs(though they shouldn't be) are swayed.

We could have had a first round home game, but we crashed and burned multiple times to secure it!

When your fate in 100% in your control and you fail, that's the result.
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Refs

Post  Sparma on Tue Jan 10, 2017 4:08 pm

Seattle's TD in the first catch was definitely a face mask, as shown and discussed (later) by the broadcast crew. I guess with the offsetting penalties, 4th down would have been replayed. That's the call that could have made a big difference.

In addition, the pass interference should have been called on the Marvin Jones miss. As Chris Collinsworth (himself a great receiver) said, the receiver will complain that it would have been catchable had I not gotten tugged. He (neutral observer) also said Detroit got some calls against them. The non-call on pass interference was less clear than the face mask (which was just missed, I guess), but it should have been called.

In all though, the Lions were beaten (and beat themselves) fair and square, even if the refs did add their bit. Crucial drops, dumb personal fouls, made a big difference. And they had no answers to Seattle's running game. They were in it as of the half, then got crushed.

It's uncanny though how often refereeing has hurt the Lions over the years. No respect. The bad reffing leads to bad results, but it's also true that years of bad results provide some licence (unfortunately for us) for unfair reffing, especially on the road.


lemonpen wrote:
WTF wrote:
Oracle wrote:Stafford is 1000 times more mobile than I've ever seen him! Athletic isn't a word I would use, but adequate runner is something he NEVER was, and that, IMO, helps him on scrambles and just moving around in the pocket as well.

Zenner is going to need some help, but he's better than I expected.

BTW Lemon, you're absolutely correct that the competition stiffened and we couldn't matchup with that level of play, but it's also true that Stafford's finger likely limited their comeback ability but it certainly wasn't that big a factor.
lemonpen wrote:Come on now, who really believes ref’s and a broke digit are responsible for the Leo’s decline.  
We were making hay squeaking by tomato cans then the playoffs began 3 weeks early.  In the last 4 games we were dominated by 80% of the NFC playoff contingent not named Lions, and subsequently exposed in virtually all phases of the game.  (kudos to our kicking combo)
So, does that make us the worst of the playoff qualifiers, or the best of those who didn’t.  Either way it is a good start for the new GM.

With that said, I am totally satisfied with our outlook.
- The new scouting / player evaluation system found many young contributors.
- An O-line chocked full of rookies improved as the year progressed.
- We have a kicking game that is a difference maker.
- Stafford has been taught the value of a possession.

I'm not saying they would have still won these games but......very questionable calls and non calls that all but shifted the momentum in favor of the opposition.   I honestly didn't see pass interference but did see blatant face masking on 2 touchdown plays the first one definitely shifted the momentum.  

Like I said the Lions didn't help themselves with all the dropped passes, but damn if calls on both sides of the ball weren't in Seattle's favor.  

Now I just hope the Lions get their run game together next season and pick up another WR.  I like Bolden, Tate, Jones and Ebron just seem they were clutch enough.   We need a Moore or Johnson type wide out and another Sanders wouldn't hurt.  

As long as our cornerbacks get caught with their backs to the throw, trying to make a blind play on the receivers hands when they THINK the ball will arrive you can expect a flag.  It's the "Oh Sh**, I've been beaten like a drum" technique.  Slay is the only CB capable of finding his man AND the ball.   Bad calls, I think not.
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Weak Conference...

Post  Oracle on Tue Jan 10, 2017 3:32 pm

Yeah, the western conference is as weak this year as it was last year, maybe weaker!

The only advantage they should have over us on this trip is that we're on the road.

I hope SVG uses Boban to frustrate Cousins because he's easy to get flustered Smile

He also needs to use Boban against Utah, both of those games are winnable. The one that's not winnable is the one against GS, we'll really need some luck to pull that one out.

The other factor not in our favor was the pressure the Portland game day change puts on the schedule by bunching games closer, our guys are going to be very tired.
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Refs

Post  lemonpen on Tue Jan 10, 2017 1:36 pm

WTF wrote:
Oracle wrote:Stafford is 1000 times more mobile than I've ever seen him! Athletic isn't a word I would use, but adequate runner is something he NEVER was, and that, IMO, helps him on scrambles and just moving around in the pocket as well.

Zenner is going to need some help, but he's better than I expected.

BTW Lemon, you're absolutely correct that the competition stiffened and we couldn't matchup with that level of play, but it's also true that Stafford's finger likely limited their comeback ability but it certainly wasn't that big a factor.
lemonpen wrote:Come on now, who really believes ref’s and a broke digit are responsible for the Leo’s decline.  
We were making hay squeaking by tomato cans then the playoffs began 3 weeks early.  In the last 4 games we were dominated by 80% of the NFC playoff contingent not named Lions, and subsequently exposed in virtually all phases of the game.  (kudos to our kicking combo)
So, does that make us the worst of the playoff qualifiers, or the best of those who didn’t.  Either way it is a good start for the new GM.

With that said, I am totally satisfied with our outlook.
- The new scouting / player evaluation system found many young contributors.
- An O-line chocked full of rookies improved as the year progressed.
- We have a kicking game that is a difference maker.
- Stafford has been taught the value of a possession.

I'm not saying they would have still won these games but......very questionable calls and non calls that all but shifted the momentum in favor of the opposition.   I honestly didn't see pass interference but did see blatant face masking on 2 touchdown plays the first one definitely shifted the momentum.  

Like I said the Lions didn't help themselves with all the dropped passes, but damn if calls on both sides of the ball weren't in Seattle's favor.  

Now I just hope the Lions get their run game together next season and pick up another WR.  I like Bolden, Tate, Jones and Ebron just seem they were clutch enough.   We need a Moore or Johnson type wide out and another Sanders wouldn't hurt.  

As long as our cornerbacks get caught with their backs to the throw, trying to make a blind play on the receivers hands when they THINK the ball will arrive you can expect a flag. It's the "Oh Sh**, I've been beaten like a drum" technique. Slay is the only CB capable of finding his man AND the ball. Bad calls, I think not.
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Re: FORUM

Post  WTF on Mon Jan 09, 2017 8:52 pm

nba.com wrote:NBA ALL-STAR VOTING 2017 PRESENTED BY VERIZON
Eastern Conference
Frontcourt
1 LeBron James (CLE) 595,288
2 Giannis Antetokounmpo (MIL) 500,663
3 Kevin Love (CLE) 250,347
4 Joel Embiid (PHI) 221,984
5 Carmelo Anthony (NY) 189,817
6 Jimmy Butler (CHI) 189,066
7 Kristaps Porzingis (NY) 184,166
8 Paul George (IND) 138,332
9 Hassan Whiteside (MIA) 72,628
10 Jabari Parker (MIL) 64,141

Guards
1 Kyrie Irving (CLE) 543,030
2 Dwyane Wade (CHI) 278,052
3 DeMar DeRozan (TOR) 253,340
4 Isaiah Thomas (BOS) 193,297
5 Derrick Rose (NY) 129,924
6 Kyle Lowry (TOR) 128,940
7 John Wall (WAS) 87,360
8 Jeremy Lin (BKN) 59,562
9 Kemba Walker (CHA) 52,122
10 Avery Bradley (BOS) 32,822

Western Conference
Frontcourt
1 Kevin Durant (GS) 541,209
2 Zaza Pachulia (GS) 439,675
3 Kawhi Leonard (SA) 341,240
4 Anthony Davis (NO) 318,144
5 Draymond Green (GS) 236,315
6 DeMarcus Cousins (SAC) 202,317
7 Karl-Anthony Towns (MIN) 125,278
8 LaMarcus Aldridge (SA) 101,724
9 Blake Griffin (LAC) 100,524
10 Marc Gasol (MEM) 97,370

Guards
1 Stephen Curry (GS) 523,597
2 James Harden (HOU) 519,446
3 Russell Westbrook (OKC) 501,652
4 Klay Thompson (GS) 293,054
5 Chris Paul (LAC) 173,830
6 Damian Lillard (POR) 117,857
7 Eric Gordon (HOU) 76,609
8 Manu Ginobili (SA) 65,832
9 Andre Iguodala (GS) 64,247
10 Zach LaVine (MIN) 53,642

SMH
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Flem! Flam! Flern!

Post  WTF on Mon Jan 09, 2017 8:42 pm

Oracle wrote:Stafford is 1000 times more mobile than I've ever seen him! Athletic isn't a word I would use, but adequate runner is something he NEVER was, and that, IMO, helps him on scrambles and just moving around in the pocket as well.

Zenner is going to need some help, but he's better than I expected.

BTW Lemon, you're absolutely correct that the competition stiffened and we couldn't matchup with that level of play, but it's also true that Stafford's finger likely limited their comeback ability but it certainly wasn't that big a factor.
lemonpen wrote:Come on now, who really believes ref’s and a broke digit are responsible for the Leo’s decline.  
We were making hay squeaking by tomato cans then the playoffs began 3 weeks early.  In the last 4 games we were dominated by 80% of the NFC playoff contingent not named Lions, and subsequently exposed in virtually all phases of the game.  (kudos to our kicking combo)
So, does that make us the worst of the playoff qualifiers, or the best of those who didn’t.  Either way it is a good start for the new GM.

With that said, I am totally satisfied with our outlook.
- The new scouting / player evaluation system found many young contributors.
- An O-line chocked full of rookies improved as the year progressed.
- We have a kicking game that is a difference maker.
- Stafford has been taught the value of a possession.

I'm not saying they would have still won these games but......very questionable calls and non calls that all but shifted the momentum in favor of the opposition. I honestly didn't see pass interference but did see blatant face masking on 2 touchdown plays the first one definitely shifted the momentum.

Like I said the Lions didn't help themselves with all the dropped passes, but damn if calls on both sides of the ball weren't in Seattle's favor.

Now I just hope the Lions get their run game together next season and pick up another WR. I like Bolden, Tate, Jones and Ebron just seem they were clutch enough. We need a Moore or Johnson type wide out and another Sanders wouldn't hurt.
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The hate is evident

Post  Oracle on Mon Jan 09, 2017 2:37 pm

Don wrote:Oracle I m surprised that you are not interested in details. The Pistons got lucky with Pose's shot. How does that fill you with so much confidence? If I were a Piston coach, I would not be confident about this team even making the playoffs. But you are thrilled and believe this group is full of talent. Charlie V told the press that the team he was on when he was will the Pistons was full of talent.


There is so much wrong here, I hardly know where to start!

1. If you paid attention to ANY details, you'd know that on the last shot, they ran through 3-4 possible ways to get an open shot. My preference would have been Harris, but he doesn't have the foot speed to get free. After trying options, the only player capable of getting a good look was KCP. Once KCP got the ball, several things had to go through his head. First, was there a teammate open to get a better shot if so, with 9.3, pass the ball. If not, did he have the room to get a shot off. He was as open as necessary, there was a contest, but not a good one, so he took the shot.

Those are the details, but the odd thing is that when other teams practice a play, run through the options, and execute something that they practice a lot, you have respect for them. But when the Pistons do it, like the play with KCP, which they practiced, ran through the options and executed, it's luck? That's a bit sick, IMO.

2. SVG coached his ass off in this game! No team can play their best defense for a full game, but that's the silly requirement you place on our guys but nobody else. So they sort of coasted for 3 quarters, but in the 4th, these guys played some great defense, and the move by SVG to put Stanley on Crabb was brilliant. Once Stanley locked in, you never heard from Crabb again!

What else did SVG do? Well, he surprised them by going to a player that was cold as ice and was very ineffective in Morris when we needed scores. Why did he do that, well, he noticed that Portland was switching and Morris was getting a smaller man on him, they thought Morris didn't count. But SVG noticed that and called more plays for Morris who responded because he could rise up and get a clear shot... That's coaching, in game recognition of matchups and exploiting them! Hardly LUCK, just details!

3. This was a chess match! There was no luck involved on either side! In case you don't know, we were facing the TOP guard duo in the league, these guys score in bunches and are hard to stop. They're good but beatable when they're on the road, but especially tough at home where the role players play a lot better, making them tough.

4. Your constant whining about a bench player is strange, and even stranger that you think he should start! Stanley isn't better than a any current starter, and he's not better than most of the bench players. Right now he does one thing well, and that's defend. Stanley & KCP are our best defenders, both well above average, and it's no secret that SVG values Stanley so much that he put him into the game when it was on the line and played him like a veteran player... what is your problem!

5. So you're just now noticing how well Ish plays defense? Gee, maybe you're the one that needs to pay attention to detail, he played that well during our mini run.

6. Any journey begins with the first step! Yes I saw this change in them coming, it's by no means complete, but they're finding themselves. Once they do, the mental mistakes will become much fewer, games will be closed out much better. In case you've forgotten, this is a young team and young teams make mistakes in order to grow. If they were playing the way you keep insisting, they'd be the Cavs or something.

This was a great game, one that folks will look back on fondly! They didn't get lucky, they dug down mentally and physically and took this game from the Blazers!

They did it with good coaching, defense and execution when it counted, and calling it luck is, in this posters opinion, your right, but disrespectful.
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If this Piston team can string together a few wins, will the key players start paying attention to the details on defense more?

Post  cool breeze on Mon Jan 09, 2017 2:21 pm

While I thought that Pope's first half effort was not good enough for a starting 2 guard on defense, he redeemed himself playing much better on the defensive end in the 2nd. It was other players who made the critical errors on Portland's out of bound plays that resulted in two key 3 pointers. Morris was late switching and Jackson was in la la land when his man hit another big wide open 3 point shot. Did anyone but Jackson not believe that Portland would be looking to throw the long pass to the weak side? This time our Pistons overcame several critical errors to win on Pope's amazing 3 pointer.

It was fun watching the interview with Reggie and Drummond after the game. Reggie can be incredible with his penetration in the paint at the end of games. His relationship with Andre appears great too. But how far will this 2 man show take the team? If Reggie considers himself to be the leader, he must play better defense and he needs to develop better relationships with the other players. That means somehow he must share the basketball more in crunch time and the coach needs to create more screening plays for other players like Pope and Harris. Pope made three 3 pointers in the overtime periods. Andre Drummond was the guy who did the dirty work on Pope's last shot. Without Andre moving his feet to set first a screen for Harris and then KCP there is no way Pope would have been open for that look. This team is still very primitive relating to their execution in the half court offense. Drummond and Johnson did some real good things to help their teammates get open. SVG needs to encourage more of this and the players might try harder working without the basketball if they can keep a better overall focus on showing more energy and of course get lucky. If players buy into playing better team defense, then we might stop seeing Piston opponents scoring 110 to 125 points. That could mean this group can stay in more ball games instead of fighting out of a huge hole they seem to dig in the first quarter of most games. Reggie needs to show he can be a better defender and he must share the basketball more with teammates other than Andre Drummond. Everyone needs to feel the team leader has their back and is aware of their individual set of skills. The leader has to be able to bring out the best in everyone not just Andre Drummond.

Hats off to Andre Drummond. His effort in this game was outstanding. The light bulb has been turned on. He is focused and playing the game as if he is having a lot of fun. Something has changed since the Christmas holidays. This guy still has no idea how good of a player he could be especially on defense.

Which way will this team go from this point on after securing two wins in a row? You sure love playing the game when you win. You hate it when you lose. You have more energy when you are part of a team with great chemistry. A lot has to change relating to paying attention to the details on defense to keep the good times going. I hope these guys can focus on playing the game the right way.

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Re: FORUM

Post  cool breeze on Mon Jan 09, 2017 9:28 am

Oracle wrote:What a game!!!

I told you these guys were finding their MoJo, despite Don's constant put downs of our talent and intelligence!

Great game on the road, WAY too much to go deeply into now, but if you didn't see this, I hope you taped it!

KCP, the guy a lot of people wanted to trade and some still do, hit a massive game winner. He may have shot it a bit early, but he took the off balance open shot and nailed the 3 that won the game!

Wow... amazing!!!

Oracle I m surprised that you are not interested in details. The Pistons got lucky with Pose's shot. How does that fill you with so much confidence? If I were a Piston coach, I would not be confident about this team even making the playoffs. But you are thrilled and believe this group is full of talent. Charlie V told the press that the team he was on when he was will the Pistons was full of talent.

The devil is in the details. You can't overcome lazy mental and physical effort for an entire half of basketball by alleged key players and expect to ever have a good team or good team chemistry.The head coach must establish accountability in the form of quickly removing players who do not show up in the first half of games. You need to sit them regardless of how you have plotted your rotations before the game. Players who make mental mistakes after working on specific situations defensively in practice must be sent to the bench for a few minutes so they can reflect on their mistakes. If not, other players who are giving max effort will slack off not not give a crap. Stan Van Gundy only has established accountability for one or two players. The 7 players that I mentioned in my post today are not accountable for their mistakes. They can come in before games with no purpose in mind and stink it up with no consequences. That is why the starters continue to give up 30 plus points almost every night they play. That translates to 120 opposition points per game. Great effort and mental approach by all 7 of the chosen players seldom happens. Pope makes a big shot. Big deal. This team is going nowhere unless something changes quickly. The Pistons won the previous game but gave up 124 points.

I don't have all the information relating to the status of Pope's health. Was he suffering from the flu in the first half of this game?If so then I blame Stan Van Gundy for not taking Pope out in the first half when he was not playing effectively. If Pope was healthy before the game then how can anyone say just because he hit the winning shot that Pope is a 20 million dollar man? No I would rather take Crabbe any day of the week. Crabbe was MONEY as a college player and he is playing hard and smart every night in the pros. However, maybe you are right and based upon the wages currently being paid to average players in the league maybe Pope is worth the money. And he could get better especially if we get a new coach with a different system and of course better point guards. It will be interesting to see how this all plays out this season. I still am not opposed to tanking and securing a high draft pick to make future Piston teams more competitive.

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Great job by Greg Kelser relating to the out of bounds play by Portland that resulted in a layup by Portland

Post  cool breeze on Mon Jan 09, 2017 8:46 am

The Piston coaching staff does have good coaches. Opposing teams are scouted well and players are informed of what is needed from them before the game begins. It appears that Harris, Drummond, and smith were prepared to play this game and showed real improvement on the defensive end.

Kelser mentioned Charles Klask who is a young and very bright assistant coach on the Piston's staff. I didn't know he was working for Stan Van Gundy. Now it is clear to me that too many of the key players do not listen and do not do what is asked of them by the coaches from game to game. How can Stan Van Gundy trust some of these players. The players SVG trusts the most based on playing time are Pope, Drummond, Morris, Harris, Smith, Lauer and Baynes. Johnson never gets onsistent minutes and never knows how he stands in Van Gundy's system. SVG clearly depends on 7 players and it is a rare occurrence when all 7 players are focused and prepared to play in top form.

Kelser brought up the out of bounds play under the basket where Crabbe goes around a double screen and receives the basketball under the basket for a layup. Coach Klask showed Kelser a video of this play from a previous game. So it is safe to assume that the coaches went through this play in practice a lot prior to the game. Pope was in a fog for the entire first half playing with no purpose on offense in the sense that he failed to move fast when screens were set for him. He looked like a practice player for the entire first half. But on defense Pope was even worse. I thought Jackson was inept because of his tendency to switch too much instead of making the extra effort to get through screens and defend Crabbe. Jackson clearly couldn't guard Crabbe at all in the first half. So Pope switched over to guard Crabbe. Pope is supposed to be the Pistons ace defender. He would be sitting on the bench for the Spurs if he ever played a half of basketball like he did last night. Pope made a feeble attempt to get around a weak screen by the opposing center when Crabbe cut to the baseline and got those wide open looks. pope was clearly not giving enough effort and Crabbe made Pope look like a junior varsity player. But the under the basket out of bounds layup Crabbe made with Pope having the assignment on Crabbe is clear proof that Pope is not a very coachable player and is not an above average defender in the NBA. Pope goes through sports where he plays solid defense but I see him faking it way too much to ever call him a solid NBA player. What is more troublesome to me is the fact that Stan Van Gundy didn't remove Pope from the game after Crabbe made that layup on the out of bounds play. This further proves that Stan Van Gundy either does not pay attention or has no standards of accountability. All of the Piston players had to be involved in practicing against that out of bounds play. If they have one teammate who fails to pay attention to detail and allows this easy basket, then the team chemistry goes to hell. And stan Van Gundy lets the team chemistry go to hell because he doesn't do the right thing time after time when one of his 7 selected rotation players makes a mental and physical mistake after the team has gone over a specific situation over and over. I can't believe that he would allow this kind of crap to keep happening unless Stan Van Gundy is not in the gym when the assistant coaches are running the practice sessions. Maybe Stan is sitting in his office working on something else other than preparing his team for games. And maybe he doesn't listen to coaches like Clarles Klask. I have known about Klask for a long time and this guy is really sharp. I wonder what he would have done if he were the head coach and the Piston team failed to execute on that out of bounds play. Pope made a weak reaction to Crabbe's movement. The players were not communicating at all. Morris failed to cover the open space. So both Pope and Morris should have been removed from the game if the coach believes in accountability and wants to force players to listen. If there are no consequences, this group of Piston players will keep on showing up like losers. Now if Zeke were playing, he would take charge and would have called out Pope in the locker room. This team has no leader because none of the 7 chosen players in Van Gundy's good graces are real leaders. Jackson cannot lead if he cannot guard guys like Crabbe. What could he say in the locker room at halftime to Pope. Jackson was ineffective on defense for the entire first half.

The guy who came to play on defense last night was of all players, Smith. He played a outstanding first half of basketball. I have been on him a lot over the past two weeks and am ready to eat crow because Smith played extremely hard and smart especially in the first half. Great job!

Based on the first half of this game, Pope and his head coach get the grade of F. The coach has shown me that either he doesn't really know what is going on with his players during the last two weeks, or he is already made plans to trade some players before the deadline. It is clear that he is not a coach who believes in accountability. Therefore, one of th eplayers will need to step up and become a real leader. I would say that the players who best fits that description on this team is Harris. But the coach has decided that Harris is the guy who must come off the bench. This nonsense by Van Gundy is what caused Zeke to make those critical comments on NBATV last week. You don't take the leading scorer and best player out of the starting lineup if you care about winning and having any leadership by the players. Maybe Van Gundy thinks he is the leader. Remember Michael Curry when he sold Dumars on that idea. That never works in the NBA. Players will not allow a coach and especially an over weight and out of shape coach ever become their leader at the NBA level. They will tune him out. Someone must emerge as a real leader. Jackson has too many flaws in his game especially on the defensive end. Players will not follow the leadership of a weak defensive player. Can Drummond become the leader? Right now Drummond has the same problems as Jackson relating to inconsistent effort mentally and physically. Right now no player is willing to give enough of themselves to become the leader. The job is open.

One improvement could be made right now. Move Van Gundy to the front office and allow Charles Klask to take over as head coach.

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A wins a win, we always say but.....

Post  deusXango on Mon Jan 09, 2017 1:14 am

6 quarters and 3 assists from our floor general is not a balanced attack! We were lucky but, a wins a win. Shocked
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OMFG

Post  Oracle on Mon Jan 09, 2017 1:01 am

What a game!!!

I told you these guys were finding their MoJo, despite Don's constant put downs of our talent and intelligence!

Great game on the road, WAY too much to go deeply into now, but if you didn't see this, I hope you taped it!

KCP, the guy a lot of people wanted to trade and some still do, hit a massive game winner. He may have shot it a bit early, but he took the off balance open shot and nailed the 3 that won the game!

Wow... amazing!!!
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Add one more thing...

Post  Oracle on Sun Jan 08, 2017 6:38 pm

Stafford is 1000 times more mobile than I've ever seen him! Athletic isn't a word I would use, but adequate runner is something he NEVER was, and that, IMO, helps him on scrambles and just moving around in the pocket as well.

Zenner is going to need some help, but he's better than I expected.

BTW Lemon, you're absolutely correct that the competition stiffened and we couldn't matchup with that level of play, but it's also true that Stafford's finger likely limited their comeback ability but it certainly wasn't that big a factor.
lemonpen wrote:Come on now, who really believes ref’s and a broke digit are responsible for the Leo’s decline.  
We were making hay squeaking by tomato cans then the playoffs began 3 weeks early.  In the last 4 games we were dominated by 80% of the NFC playoff contingent not named Lions, and subsequently exposed in virtually all phases of the game.  (kudos to our kicking combo)
So, does that make us the worst of the playoff qualifiers, or the best of those who didn’t.  Either way it is a good start for the new GM.

With that said, I am totally satisfied with our outlook.
- The new scouting / player evaluation system found many young contributors.
- An O-line chocked full of rookies improved as the year progressed.
- We have a kicking game that is a difference maker.
- Stafford has been taught the value of a possession.
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