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This Is Crazy

Post  WTF on Mon Jan 16, 2017 8:25 pm

But should we be this far into a season still searching for what may or may not work? SVG had all summer to figure out what would work he knew he would be without Reggie too start the season.

I refuse to believe that Reggie could be this much of a disruption just coming back from injury. If nothing else everything else should have already been solidify and set in stone.

What also bothering about this is the talent level of the players we're doing this experimenting with. Beyond debating if Leuer or Harris should start or Morris or Leuer everything seems small. But this isn't a debate if Sheed should come off the bench or Rodman or Aguire those debates were calculated and with purpose today it just seems SVG is thowing pieces of **** at the wall hoping some of sticks.

I would trade Reggie and whatever other pieces not necessarily for another PG but a solid backup for any of the other 4 position or at least a first and 2nd round pick.
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Constraints?

Post  Sparma on Mon Jan 16, 2017 3:36 pm

Players sometimes resist experimentation, I think, even when a move would make sense.

For instance, the other days it would have made sense to play Boban at C with Andre as the more mobile PF (as I think Oracle called for). I believe that Stan knew that Boban was the better option to Baynes there, but he's reluctant to pair Boban with Dre because AD would resent losing rebounding opportunities playing away from the buckets.

Similarly, I'm convinced that Stan knew it made sense to re-integrate Reggie slowly, but he feared a backlash from his chosen co-axis (more than from the likes of Morris).

In the NBA, the coach can't always do what he knows makes sense, if my hunch is right.

Constraints play a role at the larger organizational level too. Gores tells SVG to stay the course. I disagree and think that this team has too many built in limits (particularly resulting from a me first, defensively deficient, only pretty good PG). But I don't know that SVG has much choice but to pretty much stay the course (along with some tweaking).
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WTF

Post  BallinD on Mon Jan 16, 2017 1:47 pm

WTF wrote:Was the Lakers and they're probably younger than we are collectively as a team.  

They're on the come up, but so are we.  KCP has taken another step, Dre is taking baby steps, but is mostly moving forward, Stanley looks like he has taken a step and may be Core, if he continues to Playmake and Defend. His playmaking is being overlooked by most folks, but it is the most significant development of his young career that indicates he will be more than a future Ron Artest. Tobias will be a beast at the time his contract runs out. I fear Reggie is Reggie, "Dazed and Confused," not growing up, not figuring things out, not recognizing the success Ish has, and has no clue how to run an offense.  He will only grow if he is forced to...tough love ala the Larry Brown/Chauncey transformation resulting in a ring.   It does not look like he has been provided the proper incentive by his head coach and Team Pres.

If there was ever a time a this team needed to settle on best 8 and roll with them it is now.   Far to much experimenting this deep into the season even with KCP and Leuer being out.   Just seem when players are certain to get PT they're more locked in and play far more better.   SJ played likely his best games since coming here and I can't remember since the last time Morris and Harris did their thing at the same time.  

Agree and disagree WTF.  He should have started SJ rather than Baynes, and I would have liked to have seen Boban vs Mozgov.  Overall, I think the experimentation and injuries may slooowly open Stan's eyes leading to a new and better scheme as he learns Reggie/Dre alone is not the answer (no Ship upside)  Wanna see more of SJ, Ellensen, Bullock and Silent G.  We are bad right now, and could make a run, and actually I think we are poised for a run now that Ish is coming in and saving Reggie's non-playmaking Azz, as in the last game, though it is only one game.  ReggieB obviously does not have his legs back so he is not shooting a lot, nor attempting a bunch of threes (high BBall IQ), but when he starts hitting the three, we will roll.

Reggie is still a dumb dumb IMO.  His play decision making sucks there were times he was trying to give the game back to the Lakers.  Gotta try and win out, but also feature him at the same time so we can get that foolish egocentric Me-first cancer out of here in a trade for Goran Dragic?.  Some team will want him for instant offense off the bench.  SVG is too chickenshit to play that card, IMHO.

Still its a win and maybe it'll manifest itself into a modest run but not if SVG keeps altering the lineup every night.  
 Once Leuer and KCP come back I believe the experimentation will cease and the run will be entrenched.
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Just Talking

Post  WTF on Mon Jan 16, 2017 12:48 pm

I can live with a Brady-Rodger match-up in the Superbowl I would likely even watch it from start to finish. Of course I'm a Brady fan and would be rooting wildly to see him get another Super Win. I think if he wins he'll call it quits after and he will go down as the best ever.

I never cared for the Packers don't think I ever have no point in starting now. I always felt they been lucky, but they're not on the top of the list of teams I just hate....here's my Top 10 might surprise some of you but here it goes. 1. MSU as a Wolverine it's to be expected. 2. OSU same reason as MSU. 3. Boston Celtics closely followed by 4. Yankees hated Reggie Jackson, 5. Dallas Cowboys closely followed by the 6. Fighting Irish. 7. Green Bay Packard Lord I hated Farve. 8. LA Lakers I have a ton of reason not to like them starting with never being a Magic fan but that foul call on Bill was Bullshit and I can never forgive the league for putting in the fix. 9. Pacers/Colts/Hoosiers almost 3 reasons to hate all things Indiana I should love them for Zeke and I was a die hard Bert Jones fan in my youth but the Colts don't play in Baltimore anymore. 10. Any team in Chicago

Just case you're wondering my Top 10 favorites 1. Detroit Lions, 2. Michigan, 3. Red Wings 4. New England, 5. Pistons, 6. U of D, 7. Detroit Tigers only because I'm a so so fan of baseball. 8. S.E. Class of 82 what can I say, 9. CMU and 10. Eric B and Rakim
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Entertaining but............

Post  WTF on Mon Jan 16, 2017 9:44 am

Was the Lakers and they're probably younger than we are collectively as a team.

If there was ever a time a this team needed to settle on best 8 and roll with them it is now. Far to much experimenting this deep into the season even with KCP and Leuer being out. Just seem when players are certain to get PT they're more locked in and play far more better. SJ played likely his best games since coming here and I can't remember since the last time Morris and Harris did their thing at the same time.

Reggie is still a dumb dumb IMO. His play decision making sucks there were times he was trying to give the game back to the Lakers.

Still its a win and maybe it'll manifest itself into a modest run but not if SVG keeps altering the lineup every night.
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The Lakers really SUCK...

Post  Oracle on Mon Jan 16, 2017 1:34 am

And we struggled to beat them!

I'll take the win, but we looked like warmed over crap as well.

KCP & Leuer need to get back ASAP. Not that their saviors, just that we need all of the help we can get!
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Wow, Drummond hits a near 75 foot 3 pointer...

Post  Oracle on Sun Jan 15, 2017 11:38 pm

To give us our first lead of the game at the halftime buzzer!!!
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Survey Sez

Post  BallinD on Sun Jan 15, 2017 8:58 pm

Actually I was PistonPete in a previous iteration.  

Somehow my login became corrupted and I could no longer log in.  And so I changed it up to BallinD, not because I am Ballin or a Baller, but because in my opinion, the Ball is in the D, so BallinD.  tb

I never posted in the old old Detroit News days, because I was too busy with work and stuff.
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Reveal Yourself

Post  WTF on Sun Jan 15, 2017 8:06 pm

BallinD wrote:Go Pistons,

I remember Sebastian, WTF.  As I recall, he was a big Stuckey fan, not me!!!

I also remember from the old days Lee 357 with his game summaries, Wolverine,  with his cockiness.  Speaking of that where is Fennis Denbo, for his humor, The Show, for his know-it-all bravado, Wolverine, PC, Big Cee all posting strait dope perspectives.  I remember Frankie D was most often on point with my opinions.

On a forum, the same perspective is refreshing and often I see things the way DX does and Lemonpen and KaySlay, the newbie.  Oracle often surprises me with his logical knowledge and Cool Breeze knows more about basketball than many of us, though his posts are long, you can find nuggets of gold.tb

Whenever I disagree and want to call out what I consider stupidity, I am reminded that the bottom line is we all love the Pistons and that is the unifying factor. Smile

So who were you in your former PistonaTalk Life? To know all this you had to be a poster of old.
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Oldies but Goodies

Post  BallinD on Sun Jan 15, 2017 7:46 pm

Go Pistons,

I remember Sebastian, WTF.  As I recall, he was a big Stuckey fan, not me!!!

I also remember from the old days Lee 357 with his game summaries, Wolverine,  with his cockiness.  Speaking of that where is Fennis Denbo, for his humor, The Show, for his know-it-all bravado, Wolverine, PC, Big Cee all posting strait dope perspectives.  I remember Frankie D was most often on point with my opinions.

On a forum, the same perspective is refreshing and often I see things the way DX does and Lemonpen and KaySlay, the newbie.  Oracle often surprises me with his logical knowledge and Cool Breeze knows more about basketball than many of us, though his posts are long, you can find nuggets of gold.tb

Whenever I disagree and want to call out what I consider stupidity, I am reminded that the bottom line is we all love the Pistons and that is the unifying factor. Smile
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Damn It

Post  WTF on Sun Jan 15, 2017 6:20 pm

Big shout to the founder of this forum "Missing you Flip"
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Old Times

Post  WTF on Sun Jan 15, 2017 6:18 pm

I certainly don't miss the trolling of old and I hope this isn't the case now. Strangely I did feel like BallinD was one of our old buds coming back under a new persona ( I actually thought it was our old pal Sebastian. In any case I've enjoyed BallinD's participation in our discussion.

We work each others nerves here from time to time as both Sparma and myself have taken more than one break from the debates but at the end of the day it's just a forum of fan opinions. Believe me there's been much much worse spouted out back in the day its extremely mild around here in comparison.

Sending Shouts Out to some of those missing in action: The Show, Wolverine, PC, Big Cee, C9, and our favorite troller of all times aka PP and the 12 other persona's he posted as non-stop around the clock. Please someone help me with all the names he went by.

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BallinSlay or KayBallin...

Post  Oracle on Sun Jan 15, 2017 5:03 pm

Wise, you brought back memories of the old days, that DetNews forum was a wild and wooly place where we had a ton of fun.

It also made me remember something that went on there, muppets and puppets! I have a suspicion that one of the old practices may indeed be returning(Ballin=KaySlay? Or some other relationship), but like then, it never mattered to me, I respond to what the post says, not who said it, applying the same respect that I get.

Speaking of that, my responses to KaySlay have been in direct response to the way he addressed me. If you can't give respect, I'm not sure what the complaint is about not getting any in return, and BTW, I've been very mild with him, as anyone on this board can testify to.

I let KaySlay's personal attack pass on the first time, he was new, but when it came back again, well, you know me, I focus on that poster a bit more than normal.

The nice thing is that this forum has a history that allows us to see what was said, so there's no need to take my word, it's there in black and white.

But I do agree with Sparma, it costs nothing to be civil, we all can't and shouldn't agree upon everything, but there's another part of that. As Wise said, you need to be able to defend your ideas, and that's where the difficulty happens.
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Re: FORUM

Post  KaySlay on Sun Jan 15, 2017 3:26 pm

As the FNG I appreciate the perspective and history lesson. Glad to be on board and love the passion that I see here.

That being said, I love the creativity discussed here regarding lineup changes BUT.....

All these lineup changes are essentially shuffling the deck chairs on the Titanic. While there are positives to these suggestions, there are also negatives.

Impactful change will only occur when we address the true needs of the team:

1. Our PG. Most of us agree Reggie is the/a problem, but we don't have the answer on our team. As much as I credit Ish and Beno for holding down the fort in the absence of Reggie. Neither is a long term solution.

2. Leadership. We have talent, but without someone to focus that talent we will never see the full potential. Dre, the longest tenured Piston does not want the job. Reggie proved incapable of taking the lead. Tobias seems to be more of the silent type. KCP? possibly, but not yet.

3. Coach. I am not ashamed to say I'm a SVG fan! That being said, I am not of fan of a his coaching, strategy, and personnel management as of late. Some believe he should step down. I think it is too early for that and instead suggest finding a top notch assistant to provide him with the resources needed.

Lastly, I say there are "No sacred cows". That does not mean I want to trade everyone or even blow it up. Simply, entertain all offers and explore all options to attempt to upgrade talent and find better fitting pieces.

GO Pistons! Now I only hope that NBA League Pass isn't still blacking out LA games in Phoenix. facepalm
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We're Men So Grunting Is Permitted

Post  WTF on Sun Jan 15, 2017 2:13 pm

KaySlay what you're not understanding is that we're all experts. Our opinions are like products and we as owners of them has to make sure ours is the best. Like Smuckers thinks it's bettter than Welch's but both think they're better than the No Name Brand that's a buck and a half cheaper.

Never take this stuff to heart or personal we just all making our jellies differently even though we using the same ingredients to form our opinions.

Oracle a good guy took me under his wings way back when different place different time different forum which the majority of us participated (I Miss My DetNews PistonsTalk Crew) Talk about a rough bunch back then. I say Oracle mellowed quite bit in old age lol

What I gather from all the suggested lineup scenarios is that many are starting to give up on this season. I like Leuer and Ellenson idea. Why not toss Ellenson into the fire just to see what we truly have and Leuer might be a surprise pickup.

I like Harris and many of you will hate why I like him but he reminds me of one Josh Smith not the 3pt shooting Josh but that Josh with the all around game.

KCP will always be an issue for me, becuas ethis is the position we should be getting the most offensive production out of every single game. I can't remember Pistons SG with as much inconsistency his game not counting Michael Curry since like forever. I swaer this bothers me as much as the crappy PG we had since CB prime.

I like Morris he's not as smooth as Dice, or rough and tough as a Big Nasty, it would be idea if his point came off the bench this is why I advocate keeping him.

We can scramble the sauce all we want people it still going to come out thin until we get players above the talent level of the the players we currently have.
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My Sunday morning rant

Post  deusXango on Sun Jan 15, 2017 1:09 pm

Should this Western road trip turn out to be a disaster, and while SVG is trying "to figure things out," why not trot out this starting lineup for about 6-10 games:
C-Drummond
  Defense and offensive rebounding                                                   
PF-Leuer/Ellenson
     A little of everything and smart, error free basketball                                                
SF-Harris
     Scoring and smart play; whatever rebounds is a plus                                              
 *CG-KCP
      Defense, scoring, and team play                                               
 CG-Johnson
The same as KCP
What's to be lost at this point? What's to be gained? These guys will keep the damn ball moving (I betcha they'll average 100 points a game which is not happening now), play at a faster more controlled pace, and our perimeter defense will be better than it's been all year! We've got a PG now who scores 25 points and dishes out 3 assists (a defensive liability), whereas our SG is scoring 20+ points (without being ball-dominate) and dishing out more than 3 assists a game; SJ is an eager beaver, beast who could use the confidence boost starting would provide, and regardless what his jump shot looks like, to the perfectionists, will probably start falling! One thing for sure, that can't be argued, the missing defensive partner KCP has lacked on the perimeter will be present and contributing, and Drummond's defense on the interior will become more effective. What difference does it make who scores the points; when it didn't matter we were over .500, plus we didn't have no damn hero!!

*CG: Combo Guard. This is something I've railed against ad gagum but, now's the time for a number of reasons, #1 is a combo guard is currently guiding our team downhill with his ball-hogging tendency's, and #2 he doesn't play a lick of defense (which everybody, including himself, realizes the team needs). IMHO the tradeoff seems to be practical.

We need Leuer back. We need to start grooming Johnson and Ellenson, our 1st round picks, to be comfortable/competitive in the NBA game. We need to stop damning Drummond for not being the offensive juggernaut some centers have been and allow his game to develop along the natural course of his unique abilities. We need Morris to rest and get whatever the fu@k's wrong corrected. We need Reggie's ass traded while we can get something decent for him. We need SVG to hire a coach.
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Horsefeathers

Post  BallinD on Sun Jan 15, 2017 12:07 pm

If we all love the Stones so much we have to argue by fair engagement rules.  Only slaps, no fisticuffs are allowed or the forum fanatics will have to invoke the horsefeathers rule. KaySlay, thanks for reminding us.

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KaySlay

Post  Sparma on Sun Jan 15, 2017 9:43 am

I applaud your call for civility among us fans at the forum, a standard that I have fallen short of at times myself.

KaySlay wrote:
WTF wrote:Not sure if it was Kayslay or BallinD that said "this team has no heart",   I freaking agree!

I agree that only hindsight could have told us about the Hill trade,  but as far as the others it was all about improving Kelly to Dantley and then Dantley to Aguire to Aguire eventually making way for Rodman.  I still say I would give up Andre for Boogie and I would rather have Beal than KCP 

Thank you for adding to the discussion and understanding the point of the post.

While Oracle and I may differ in opinion of our Pistons and how to improve them, I don't understand the vindictive responses thrown out to myself, BallinD or Cool Breeze. We are all Pistons fans here and probably the most passionate of the fan base at that. Responding to posters asking them to put down the sauce, asking them if they are blind, or if they understand the definition of different English words is demeaning and detracts from the dialog we are attempting to engage in.

That being said I believe I am on planet Earth with SVG, our players, as well as Pistons fans that believe being is last place does not give us the ability to disregard losses like the first place Cavs and Warriors can.
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Re: FORUM

Post  KaySlay on Sun Jan 15, 2017 2:10 am

deusXango wrote:KaySlay, don't take these jibes as anything more than "locker room talk," to quote our President-elect lol We're really not mean spirited up in here, just crazy passionate about the frustration of the current situation our beloved Pistons are in. I'm not speaking for Oracle, because he's perfectly capable of speaking for himself, plus he'll be off in my ass next, so I'm going to chill. I really enjoy your shared thoughts on the Pistons, for what it's worth. BallinD and Don aka Cool Breeze know what I'm talking about.

@DX


@BallinD I like that lineup more than Baynes at PF. Only concern is pulling Dre away from the rim and loosing some of those offensive rebounding opportunities. Also I see him potentially picking up more fouls doing this, however in limited spurts I can see this lineup working.
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One Adjustment

Post  BallinD on Sun Jan 15, 2017 1:51 am

While Leuer is out, why not try Dre at PF and Boban at C.  Maybe Stan was onto something with his idea of Baynes and Dre, but screwed it up.  Dre is quick enough to guard PFs and this would solve our rebonding deficit problem.  Last year we were 2nd in rebounding, this year we are 19th.  

Round it out with Stanley, Tobias and Reggie until KCP comes back.  

When Leuer comes back, it is time to try Stanley at SF and Bullock as backup SG.  Morris to bring the fire off the bench. hehe
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Something Has Happen

Post  WTF on Sun Jan 15, 2017 1:03 am

DX and Oracle there are way too many tiny variables of "What Ifs"

No secret here I hate paying max deals for potential with all the vision we may conjure up in our mines of every individual player we're starting that theory off with an "If" There's a consistency of "What Ifs" with every freaking player on this team and we're not talking about star players we're doing this young player that many look destiny to be no more than role players.

I agree there a high possibility that Andre could live up to the potential of his contract, but I harkin back to these same notions being made about Moose at one point. The only difference I see from Moose to Andre is Andre managed to get the money. SVG has failed in lighting the appropriate fire under Andre ass and he likely won't. He wants another Howard just one that won't bite back so he cuddles Andre more than he should,

Something has to give big time with this team and that could be getting rid of Reggie and SVG hiring a coach and solely focusing his attention on being president/gm.

I don't think we should be in any kind of hold position based on what potentially might happen or might not happen. I certainly don't we need to being so based the theory of "What Ifs" I'm damn sure for going to get talent needed in the moment you all know I've been about the win now approach.

I hear y'all on some players but not the whole freaking roster should we be banking/cashing all our "If Chips On" Yes the team played better with Ish at the helm, but he;s not the answer either. Where's my young Andre Miller we certainly can't get one if were scared to trade players. Hell we could be looking at a pairing of Andre and Boogie now if it wasn't for the all the "What Ifs" that surround and protected him from being traded.
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Just chillin'

Post  deusXango on Sun Jan 15, 2017 12:40 am

KaySlay, don't take these jibes as anything more than "locker room talk," to quote our President-elect lol We're really not mean spirited up in here, just crazy passionate about the frustration of the current situation our beloved Pistons are in. I'm not speaking for Oracle, because he's perfectly capable of speaking for himself, plus he'll be off in my ass next, so I'm going to chill. I really enjoy your shared thoughts on the Pistons, for what it's worth. BallinD and Don aka Cool Breeze know what I'm talking about.
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McMad?

Post  KaySlay on Sat Jan 14, 2017 11:44 pm

WTF wrote:Not sure if it was Kayslay or BallinD that said "this team has no heart",   I freaking agree!

I agree that only hindsight could have told us about the Hill trade,  but as far as the others it was all about improving Kelly to Dantley and then Dantley to Aguire to Aguire eventually making way for Rodman.  I still say I would give up Andre for Boogie and I would rather have Beal than KCP 

Thank you for adding to the discussion and understanding the point of the post.

While Oracle and I may differ in opinion of our Pistons and how to improve them, I don't understand the vindictive responses thrown out to myself, BallinD or Cool Breeze. We are all Pistons fans here and probably the most passionate of the fan base at that. Responding to posters asking them to put down the sauce, asking them if they are blind, or if they understand the definition of different English words is demeaning and detracts from the dialog we are attempting to engage in.

That being said I believe I am on planet Earth with SVG, our players, as well as Pistons fans that believe being is last place does not give us the ability to disregard losses like the first place Cavs and Warriors can.
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Point Panic

Post  BallinD on Sat Jan 14, 2017 11:33 pm

Oracle wrote:I notice you tend to see things black and with, with no shades of gray in between.
Shades of Red for we're mad that this team is unecessarily underachieving and it's not due to talent, but more to Fit and Scheme, Chemistry and Heart.

We certainly have flaws in our current talent, but the flaws should NOT prevent us from being over .500 right now, and the east is weaker this year than it was last year.

It is not the flaws in the team, but how the players have been deployed, the destruction of the chemistry, and the inability/refusal to challenge/control your annointed leader who is anything but.

We entered last night game, 5 games out of 5th place... why the f**k is everybody in deep panic mode? We're one good winning streak away from being in the thick of the playoff race!

We are more than halfway through the season and we see clownish desparation from SVG without changing the one thing that counts the most, the Elephant in the Room.  We see a team that looks like it has quit on its coach.   We see a confused, lazy and disinterested team, led by the head of the snake, a petulant, me first little Diva, who bumps his gums about defense and is possibly the worst defender on the team, but is our annointed team leader.

Is time running out... hell yeah, but until...

Most smart people, when they can see what it is and where it is going, make changes then, at that point, before it falls off the rail.  That way it is not Panic, but Response.  Time is running out.  Tick Tock Tick Tock.
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So nice, I had to post it twice!

Post  Oracle on Sat Jan 14, 2017 11:32 pm

deusXango wrote:From the most knowledgeable poster on this forum to Stan Van Gundy, I ask one simple question; what can we get for Reggie Jackson? Is RJ really a PG in his mind or the star of the team? If he's a star PG, then why doesn't he make the players around him better? Is he a better perimeter defender than KCP? Where did he get license to speak in outrage about defense? WHAT CAN WE GET FOR REGGIE JACKSON? Don't hide him behind rhetoric about who's untouchable, let's think "productive possible trade;" this is a business Stan, act accordingly.

Wise, my good brother, let me offer you this view of an extraordinary talent we have now (and please leave out his salary, at least the portion you're not paying) and perhaps you can appreciate him a little more. Andre Drummond's strength is his ability to collect offensive rebounds like nobody's business; when anything comes off our rim, a great deal of the time, it's still our ball...no team in the NBA can make that claim. He has the potential to be a 20/20 big man on the season, with his non-FT shooting ass, but the games flow must be at a quicker pace. He's going to put his big man game together once he gets some stability at PG and I do mean a legit PG, not a made up one (combo guards masquerading as PG's don't fit the bill). In that 1 in, 4 out scheme, which is a SVG limitation, he's going to look ordinary and not worth the veterans minimum, which is not true, and you never see how his coach is adversely affecting his worth to the team. What must we give up to get Goran Dragic?

Let's stop the talk about trading Tobias Harris, anyway we can, because he's proven to be our most effective, non-ball dominate, offensive weapon and he's a real pro, not a diva! He's proven to be a TEAM player, so why get rid of him and at his age? With some stability his game will expand as Drummonds, KCP, Johnson, and Ellenson's...everybody not mentioned would be, should be considered trade bait for projected lottery picks in 2017's draft! I'm continuing to say WE NEED A COACH and PG!! Who disagrees? That's a question of conscience.    
I'm with you DX!
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