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Re: FORUM

Post  cool breeze on Mon May 15, 2017 1:19 pm

BallinD wrote:Great Post Cool.  I fear that you are right, the evidence shows it.  No way to paper over this mess, but they will try...

Specifically they will tell us last season was a fluke, The Core is back (We have no core), We have no real needs... Who will challenge the liars and the idiots?? Isn't this a pivotal year, yet there is no sense of urgency!!

cool breeze wrote:Over the last month of the season, Detroit had no significant injuries that I know of. Many other teams had key players on the sidelines. Stan Van Gundy had all of his hand picked players available for duty. Five players were in the dog house including Johnson, Boban, Bullock, Beno and Hilliard. Stan's favorites, Drummond, Jackson, KCP, Leuer, and Morris were healthy and being tucked into bed with a bedtime story every night during this stretch. Harris was a part time visitor to the dog house with rumors floating around that he would be the most logical candidate to be traded in the off season.

1. Poor game preparation against specific teams by the coaching staff and the players.

2. Horrible team chemistry where the team played sloppy defense, did not help each other out, coaches did not call for any traps to take the ball away from scorers hurting the team at specific important moments.

3. Zero game time adjustments by the coaching staff during games where the starters were blown out in the first quarter. Just stand and watch with no answers was the norm with the head coach throwing a fit on the sidelines and yelling at the players sitting on the bench.

4. When things were going bad mostly because of bad point guard leadership and lack of any paint protection on defense the coach would pull Stanley Johnson from the game to make the crowd think it was all his fault even though he seldom touched the basketball.

5. KCP in his contract season with all the buzz about his agent asking for a max contract did not lead or make any impact that changed anything regarding the downward slide out of the playoffs.

6. The final verdict has come in and Detroit gets the award for being the worst team in the NBA over the last month of the season. Maybe a few teams lost more games but if that is true it still places Detroit as the worst team because this Piston team had no injuries during that time period and played with the worst team chemistry. The word is FLAT. They were FLAT like a FLAT TIRE.

6. The players only team meeting where the players attempted to get real with each other and come out with some answers so as to change the course of the slide into the toilet was CRUSHED BY THE TEAM LEADER, ANDRE DRUMMOND and STAN VAN GUNDY. Please Drummond supporters tell the growing number of fans that demand he be traded and Stan Van Gundy sent packing his bags who else spilled the beans as to what went on in that meeting. The untold story is which players did Andre Drummond snitch on to SVG after the meeting? Andre said he didn't like it that some players were too hard on Reggie Jackson. I have been involved on teams that had private meetings and know there is a CODE you don't break with teammates. Andre Drummond broke the code. Is  there any wonder that the team chemistry over the last few weeks was worse than at any time I can remember for any Piston team that I have ever watched. In the past we might have had some really bad players but I never saw them quit and that is what this team did this season. The play where Whiteside made the tip in to win the game that took Detroit out of the playoffs is just one memory now of many bad memories relating to how this team played when it counted in the last month of the season. This team was not competitive. They were getting blown out badly early on in the games.

I am sure I missed a few things here but you get the drift. But now all the attention is on KCP and how much money he will be making. Was he a difference maker when it counted? Did he step up and become a leader? Who else stood out and set an example for the rest of the players who were just tired of all the nonsense created by Stan Van Gundy and his inability to let the team pick their own leaders. Stan picked the wrong leaders and then he made others the scapegoat. Stan never identified who had HEART and then stopped the special click created by his own designated leaders who betrayed him in the end.

The notion that the Pistons season was a fluke season of disappointment for unknown reasons is laughable. Players on other teams and coaches on other teams found out just how inept Drummond really is as a defender and offensive threat.  Stan Van Gundy has taken out the HEART of this team. His pet franchise player has shown no heart and has lost the trust of his teammates when he became a snitch. Work around that if you can. Nothing will change until the HEARTLESS ONE IS GONE.

Ballin one of the experts at the Chicago combine made this statement. As a rule of thumb if you have not made a significant impact by the end of your 3td season as a pro then usually the hand writing is on the wall that you won't be an impact player throughout your career. Equally true as stated by this same expert involving NBA coaches. This guy said that if you haven't made an impact or are showing that your team is not moving in the right direction relating to betting able to compete with other rising teams well night in and night out, then you are usually fired. The Pistons have a head coach and a few assistant coaches who show no evidence that they have improved one player not to mention that the Piston team became the worst or close to the worst team in the NBA in the last month of this past season. The 3 year rule should apply in this situation relating to the assistant coaches and the head coach. This expert didn't mention the life span of GMs.

One other great statement that the entire group of experts mentioned as the most important ingredient to determine when signing free agents or selecting draft picks. HEART is the most important thing to find out with any player at any level. When a team is paying money for players it becomes even more essential to discover who has great HEART and who doesn't. It takes hard work to find those players who have a high probability of becoming successful and if you are not turning over every rock relating to a player's history in high school and college then you are apt to sign players who will disappoint. I attend a lot of college basketball games. When I look around or look at the big screen in the middle of the court, I usually see several NBA GMs watching the game in person not on television. Danny Ainge has an incredible work ethic. He attends a lot of games all season and knows the importance of doing things himself. It is no fluke that he was the guy who hired Brad Stevens who has the ability to help players improve and get on the same page as a team. Ainge is looking for talented players who have HEART. Also, Ainge will always try to talk with the head coaches and assistant coaches relating to players he is targeting during each visit. Ainge wants to know not only if the player he is looking at has HEART but also how how receptive the kid is to coaching and absorbing what is being taught. This is something that Joe Dumars never thought was important. That is why he ended up with Rodney White, Darko, Daye, and I am sorry to say, Andre Drummond. Drummond fits the profile of a player who shows very little HEART and he has the reputation of not being able to absorb instruction and transferring the instruction into a positive situation of himself or his team.

If you fail to detect the two critical factors - HEART and ABILITY TO PROCESS INSTRUCTION then as a GM you are a failure. If you are a head coach and work with players day in and day out and cannot figure out who is capable of processing instruction or execute the basic fundamentals of playing offense and defense, then how do you stack up as a coach? The most puzzling question that I have is how Stan Van Gundy can tolerate his captain and franchise player who has shown little to no heart all season long and for sure is not capable or processing instruction. Instead, the head coach has decided to ignore those two traits that Drummond has never possessed. Players who have heart do not give up. They do not play defense with their arms below their waist or fail to work hard with their feet on pick and roll plays while switching instead of rolling back into the paint to guard the opposing center. If Ainge saw Drummond switching like that instead of moving, he would cross Drummond off his list quickly. Nope we don't want him. Yet Stan Van Gundy pretends not to see this happening. Talk about how you can create bad team chemistry. That is incredible and Stan looks the other way all the time with his pet players. So the 3 year rule should apply to Stan Van Gundy. It was a huge mistake to ever give SVG two jobs when he is not capable of doing one the right way. Flaws in players and coaches will not go away next year. The owner is just slow on the uptake. It was time to move on in the middle of last season. When SVG sent Harris to the bench and ignored the lack of heart by his franchise player he should have been terminated. Drummond could have been traded before the deadline. He got a lot worse after the deadline and now the word is out throughout the league that you have to worry about how Andre will affect team chemistry if you take on his contract. The only option now is for Drummond to get a heart transplant. He is the guy who wants to be called at team leader without doing any work to earn that title. And the coach is OK with it. Everyone who cares about the Pistons have good reason to be pissed off with the direction this team has gone.

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The Real Truth: Gospel!!

Post  BallinD on Mon May 15, 2017 11:05 am

Great Post Cool.  I fear that you are right, the evidence shows it.  No way to paper over this mess, but they will try...

Specifically they will tell us last season was a fluke, The Core is back (We have no core), We have no real needs... Who will challenge the liars and the idiots?? Isn't this a pivotal year, yet there is no sense of urgency!!

cool breeze wrote:Over the last month of the season, Detroit had no significant injuries that I know of. Many other teams had key players on the sidelines. Stan Van Gundy had all of his hand picked players available for duty. Five players were in the dog house including Johnson, Boban, Bullock, Beno and Hilliard. Stan's favorites, Drummond, Jackson, KCP, Leuer, and Morris were healthy and being tucked into bed with a bedtime story every night during this stretch. Harris was a part time visitor to the dog house with rumors floating around that he would be the most logical candidate to be traded in the off season.

1. Poor game preparation against specific teams by the coaching staff and the players.

2. Horrible team chemistry where the team played sloppy defense, did not help each other out, coaches did not call for any traps to take the ball away from scorers hurting the team at specific important moments.

3. Zero game time adjustments by the coaching staff during games where the starters were blown out in the first quarter. Just stand and watch with no answers was the norm with the head coach throwing a fit on the sidelines and yelling at the players sitting on the bench.

4. When things were going bad mostly because of bad point guard leadership and lack of any paint protection on defense the coach would pull Stanley Johnson from the game to make the crowd think it was all his fault even though he seldom touched the basketball.

5. KCP in his contract season with all the buzz about his agent asking for a max contract did not lead or make any impact that changed anything regarding the downward slide out of the playoffs.

6. The final verdict has come in and Detroit gets the award for being the worst team in the NBA over the last month of the season. Maybe a few teams lost more games but if that is true it still places Detroit as the worst team because this Piston team had no injuries during that time period and played with the worst team chemistry. The word is FLAT. They were FLAT like a FLAT TIRE.

6. The players only team meeting where the players attempted to get real with each other and come out with some answers so as to change the course of the slide into the toilet was CRUSHED BY THE TEAM LEADER, ANDRE DRUMMOND and STAN VAN GUNDY. Please Drummond supporters tell the growing number of fans that demand he be traded and Stan Van Gundy sent packing his bags who else spilled the beans as to what went on in that meeting. The untold story is which players did Andre Drummond snitch on to SVG after the meeting? Andre said he didn't like it that some players were too hard on Reggie Jackson. I have been involved on teams that had private meetings and know there is a CODE you don't break with teammates. Andre Drummond broke the code. Is  there any wonder that the team chemistry over the last few weeks was worse than at any time I can remember for any Piston team that I have ever watched. In the past we might have had some really bad players but I never saw them quit and that is what this team did this season. The play where Whiteside made the tip in to win the game that took Detroit out of the playoffs is just one memory now of many bad memories relating to how this team played when it counted in the last month of the season. This team was not competitive. They were getting blown out badly early on in the games.

I am sure I missed a few things here but you get the drift. But now all the attention is on KCP and how much money he will be making. Was he a difference maker when it counted? Did he step up and become a leader? Who else stood out and set an example for the rest of the players who were just tired of all the nonsense created by Stan Van Gundy and his inability to let the team pick their own leaders. Stan picked the wrong leaders and then he made others the scapegoat. Stan never identified who had HEART and then stopped the special click created by his own designated leaders who betrayed him in the end.

The notion that the Pistons season was a fluke season of disappointment for unknown reasons is laughable. Players on other teams and coaches on other teams found out just how inept Drummond really is as a defender and offensive threat.  Stan Van Gundy has taken out the HEART of this team. His pet franchise player has shown no heart and has lost the trust of his teammates when he became a snitch. Work around that if you can. Nothing will change until the HEARTLESS ONE IS GONE.
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If Stan Van Gundy and Tom Gores are watching the playoffs they must know that they have created a monster loser with no relief in sight because of the contracts

Post  cool breeze on Mon May 15, 2017 9:42 am

Will se see and hear more smoke and mirrors from Piston management as they attempt to prop up the dysfunctional team that THEY created? Lessons t be learned from the playoffs and especially how the Spurs manage their team reveal that Piston management has been living in the dark ages.

Individuals get a reputation sometimes not based on performance but basic luck they have had in the past. This is sometimes true with NBA coaches and I think it is true regarding Stan Van Gundy. So this past season showed fans who watch closely that SVG has a lot of weaknesses relating to how to manage a team and how to select the right players to form a team. You can't just go out and hunt for shooters. You need to get players who all offer a different blend of talent, desire, and a high basketball IQ to be successful in the NBA. If your team sustains injuries the coach in charge must be able to make adjustments and find a way to bring out the best in the players who are healthy.

The Spurs coaches ability to make adjustments with their team is fantastic. But it is clear that Pop knows that no NBA team can be successful if key players have LOW BASKETBALL IQs. He would never sign a player to a big contract who has a low basketball IQ and has a history of not being coachable. It is like night and day for coaches to have smart players. Even at the high school level you can pick out players who listen to the coach and comprehend what the game plan is and remember the game plan and execute the game plan during the game. That is the most exciting experience for a coach to see players who UNDERSTAND THE GAME AND CAN EXECUTE. If you have a starter who doesn't know that they do not know and has no curiosity in their personality that drives them to KNOW, then you just cannot move on with that player. That player on the Pistons is Andre Drummond not Reggie Jackson. Failure to address and identify this basic thing while attempting to mask the negative effect on a team by the coach will result in a year like the Pistons had. This kind of thing would never happen with Pop in charge in the Spurs organization. Take a look and try to find one player who doesn't show off a high basketball IQ. They might miss shots but seldom fail to play basketball the right way. If a big man fails to box out his man one time, Pop will see it. He will never have his back to the game action like Stan Van Gundy. He will not ignore the fact that his center cannot prepare and recognize basic offensive plays an opponent is trying to run as they continually get shots in the painted area. I am amazed that SVG who is supposed to have a high basketball IQ himself is playing this smoke and mirrors game of ignoring his number one problem.

Remember this season when we fans watched both Jackson and Smith dominate the basketball and fail to adequetly defend. Opposing teams could go around Jackson anytime they wanted to. Jackson was confused with basic defensive rotations as to when he should switch and when not to switch. While many fans think highly of Smith, when he was on the floor and an opponent really needed a basket, they picked on Smith and would eventually get that one on one match up and shoot over him. Now can you recall where some of us kept writing posts begging the coach to try something else including using someone other than either Jackson or Smith to bring the basketball up the floor to start the half court offense. SVG was stuck with this idea that the team needed to play up tempo style. However, by playing a combination of Drummond and Leuer in the paint and either Smith or Jackson at point guard, the team was so weak defensively that they opposing teams were scoring a lot in their half court offense. When the ball goes through the hoop that destroys the up tempo style of offense. You cannot get an advantage and beat an opposing team down the court if you have to wait until the ball goes through the net and you have to inbound the basketball. Opposing teams are already set up and go to the spots where SVG tells his players to STAND. So when you use small ball dominating point guards who have extreme weaknesses defensively, what is the advantage of playing them at all? Meanwhile of you have a player like Stanley Johnson who has played a lot of point guard in the past and has a high basketball UQ along with good defensive skills, and he dribbles the ball up the court like Leonard did in this last playoff game for the Spurs, you eliminate one of the big defects in your defense. You still have Drummond in there because the team cannot get rid of his contract ( yes that is the real truth Piston fans) but you have added a solid defender who can learn to guard players John Wall. You have a much different looking team. Johnson has the ability to recognize how the defense is set up and then get the other players into proper spacing. He makes players better on offense. I am sure some of you have seen him pass the basketball. Johnson's issues concern ball handling right now but if the coach told him that this was going to be his role for the team, I know that he would come back next fall with a different skill set. He would then feel like he is more of a part of the team and the special click between Reggie jackson and Andre Drummond would be broken. Thus, the team chemistry would greatly improve. Johnson would make Harris into a real star that he can be. It will never happen under SVG's current strategy of a ball dominate point guard. Johnson can be the leader this team really needs. He has been a leader on every other team he has ever played on. Meanwhile, Drummond has never been a leader on any team he has played on until SVG decreed he was the Pistons leader.
SVG attempted to use Hilliard at times towards the end of the season in the role of bringing the ball up the court and eliminating the point guard. It didn't work because Hilliard does not have the basketball IQ of Stanley Johnson. If Johnson is no longer the player that I think he is, then until Jackson and Smith are gone, the coach needs to find another player who has defensive skills do this job of bringing the ball up the court, initiating the offense BY RUNNING THE PLAYS THE TEAM WORKS ON IN PRACTICE and then moving without the basketball. That is where Johnson shines. He can move without the basketball after he passes the ball, set good interior screens and open up lanes for other players. We have no player who does that. Players just stand and let Jackson or Smith attempt to create something. We saw that all season long.

Meanwhile, Pop has helped create a fantastic player in Leonard. This guy has worked hard on his ball handling skills and Pop recognized Leonard's extremely high basketball IQ and put him position to use it. That is what made Zeke the best Piston player of all time. His basketball IQ is off the charts high. And it was Zeke who said the very same thing I am saying this past winter about Stanley Johnson. He is not being used properly. We need more players like Stanley Johnson. That is what Thomas said but SVG just has no clue at all. The coach did not tap into the assets his players have and develop those assets. Instead he has played kiss ass with Andre Drummond and Reggie Jackson. And where has that gotten him? If Tom Gores were paying attention and would ask advise from Isiah Thomas, SVG would be long gone. Next season SVG will trot out the same players using the same offense and defense. He will bitch out Stanley Johnson for not fitting into his stupid offensive plan. He will wonder why the 3 point shooting is so bad even after watching his players stand around and the ball being dribbled too much instead of seeing the ball being passed from side to side and players moving and setting screens for each other. How in hell can a coach keep his job after this season? It wasn't about how many games the team lost it was all about how the team played on both ends of the floor. Meanwhile, the Spurs team plays outstanding team defense regardless of if it is bench players or starters playing, and they sure do move without the basketball and pass the ball around finding the open shooters or cutters. Nobody on that team has a low basketball IQ. They all have a variety of skill sets and are not just 3 point shooters.

Pope has not developed the ability to handle the basketball any where near the level of Leonard. It is unfortunate that the Piston coaches have not helped him get up to speed in that area. That is Pope's big weakness and limits his effectiveness as an offensive player. He has recognition issues as well and that is another strength of Leonard.

The highly paid coaches and GMs especially working for the Pistons need to make sure any player they draft already has a high basketball IQ. You cannot teach a player to have this trait. They are born with it and have worked on it as young kids. You can see kids in the 8th grade stand out from the others. Imagine Ginobili as a kid playing basketball. He is so damn smart. I want to enjoy watching SMART basketball players in the future wearing Piston uniforms. Why SVG does not look for that basic ingredient in players he picks out is shocking to some of us. Meanwhile, I love the post game interviews with Brad Stevens who constantly talks about the need to have a high basketball IQ. HE sure has one. The guy is smart as hell and his players know it and love playing for him. The same feeling is there for Pop by those Spurs players. He makes every player better. It is about the players and making them successful for the great coaches. For the others it is about forcing players to play the style the coach decides regardless of who the players are. The players are just numbers in SVG's world. I can think of only one player who wants to play for Stan Van Gundy next season and that guy is Andre Drummond. Andre wants to do his thing. The coach says OK Andre do your thing. I will screw with the other guys.

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Re: FORUM

Post  lemonpen on Sun May 14, 2017 6:10 pm

Oracle wrote:Here is my thought, and I do like what Lemonpen had to say,
Lemonpen wrote: In my mind we cannot go into next season with 3 huge contracts none of which is for an established All Star. Its tough to plan on some unnamed FA, draft pick or trade prospect.
On May 22nd my preference is to pay KCP and say bye-bye to RJax.

First, I agree that 3 large contracts without one star among them is not sustainable, and I like your solution with some additional information.

Drummond: Yeah he looks like trash, but it's way too early to give up on him, but if we were to do that, we blew it big time when we passed on Cousins. He would have been a centerpiece to actually build around and it's hard for me to see how we wouldn't be in the playoffs regularly. Deals like that just don't happen too often, so Drummond is worth keeping because what he does, he does very well, unfortunately what he doesn't do well he totally sucks at, but that can change. Exactly!!!

Reggie: His health issues can be managed by playing him fewer minutes and saving him for end of game situations, but that's not the biggest issue with him. Reggie's problems are legion,
1. He's past 25 and the type of issues he has never get better, just worse.
2. His style of play is an issue, but just like his health, it also can be managed
3. The biggest issue is that he's holding back the progress of Harris & KCP, both of whom need the ball to move to stay in the flow. KCP and Stanley suffer the most as they can go many possessions with quality touches.
Exactly !! Pt Dux
Considering all of this, we should look to move Reggie, but it may not be workable before the season starts, it may not happen until the Feb. Deadline.

KCP: The only smart thing to do is to sign him, there isn't any other choice. I prefer to keep KCP, but if there is a S&T that makes a lot of sense then we would be fools not to entertain it. But a move just to make one makes no sense, and we need to wait to see how things play out.

Nothing is valuable unless you value it. Only Drummond isn't playing up to his contract, Reggie played his heart out last season after he got paid, I expect KCP to do the same and improve as well.

That's the big 3. After that, we have to wonder how long we want to keep Leuer, and that likely will depend on how fast Ellenson can develop.

However, we better pray that Baynes get a higher offer, because he could come back and we have to pay him. No Problem there.

So no, this isn't a blow it up plan in the short term, but keeping our options open to make smart moves as they present themselves. If we get into a situation where we have low paid guys, waiting around for their potential to show, we won't have tradable assets and because we can't attract the big FA's, we would be in a really bad place.


Yep, makes no sense to pay them big lootie if we aren't going to put them in the best situation to succeed.
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The homer media along with Piston management use smoke and mirrors to coverup the real truth about this Piston team. Here is the real truth.

Post  cool breeze on Sun May 14, 2017 12:42 pm

Over the last month of the season, Detroit had no significant injuries that I know of. Many other teams had key players on the sidelines. Stan Van Gundy had all of his hand picked players available for duty. Five players were in the dog house including Johnson, Boban, Bullock, Beno and Hilliard. Stan's favorites, Drummond, Jackson, KCP, Leuer, and Morris were healthy and being tucked into bed with a bedtime story every night during this stretch. Harris was a part time visitor to the dog house with rumors floating around that he would be the most logical candidate to be traded in the off season. He came off the bench like a trooper but how was the best scorer treated by the Piston brain trust. Was his ass kissed as much as Drummond's? Did the head coach cover up for his mistakes like he did for Andre Drummond? I recall that Stan did say some negative things about Jackson but NEVER allowed the bought and sold Detroit sports media to write much of anything negative about Andre other than he is young yet and needs to be more engaged. That word 'engaged" was not mentioned until Detroit lost to Miami in the last seconds 100% due to lack of work ethic by Andre Drummond. Too far under the basket - did not attempt to jump - did not think to box out etc, etc, etc.. Has everyone forgotten that play? I can't believe so many fans fall right into the prescribed planted spin stories that divert attention to the real truth about this team. The last month of the season brought Piston fans the following.

1. Poor game preparation against specific teams by the coaching staff and the players.

2. Horrible team chemistry where the team played sloppy defense, did not help each other out, coaches did not call for any traps to take the ball away from scorers hurting the team at specific important moments.

3. Zero game time adjustments by the coaching staff during games where the starters were blown out in the first quarter. Just stand and watch with no answers was the norm with the head coach throwing a fit on the sidelines and yelling at the players sitting on the bench.

4. When things were going bad mostly because of bad point guard leadership and lack of any paint protection on defense the coach would pull Stanley Johnson from the game to make the crowd think it was all his fault even though he seldom touched the basketball.

5. KCP in his contract season with all the buzz about his agent asking for a max contract did not lead or make any impact that changed anything regarding the downward slide out of the playoffs.

6. The final verdict has come in and Detroit gets the award for being the worst team in the NBA over the last month of the season. Maybe a few teams lost more games but if that is true it still places Detroit as the worst team because this Piston team had no injuries during that time period and played with the worst team chemistry. The word is FLAT. They were FLAT like a FLAT TIRE.

6. The players only team meeting where the players attempted to get real with each other and come out with some answers so as to change the course of the slide into the toilet was CRUSHED BY THE TEAM LEADER, ANDRE DRUMMOND and STAN VAN GUNDY. Please Drummond supporters tell the growing number of fans that demand he be traded and Stan Van Gundy sent packing his bags who else spilled the beans as to what went on in that meeting. The untold story is which players did Andre Drummond snitch on to SVG after the meeting? Andre said he didn't like it that some players were too hard on Reggie Jackson. I have been involved on teams that had private meetings and know there is a CODE you don't break with teammates. Andre Drummond broke the code. Is there any wonder that the team chemistry over the last few weeks was worse than at any time I can remember for any Piston team that I have ever watched. In the past we might have had some really bad players but I never saw them quit and that is what this team did this season. The play where Whiteside made the tip in to win the game that took Detroit out of the playoffs is just one memory now of many bad memories relating to how this team played when it counted in the last month of the season. This team was not competitive. They were getting blown out badly early on in the games.

I am sure I missed a few things here but you get the drift. But now all the attention is on KCP and how much money he will be making. Was he a difference maker when it counted? Did he step up and become a leader? Who else stood out and set an example for the rest of the players who were just tired of all the nonsense created by Stan Van Gundy and his inability to let the team pick their own leaders. Stan picked the wrong leaders and then he made others the scapegoat. Stan never identified who had HEART and then stopped the special click created by his own designated leaders who betrayed him in the end.

The notion that the Pistons season was a fluke season of disappointment for unknown reasons is laughable. Players on other teams and coaches on other teams found out just how inept Drummond really is as a defender and offensive threat. They already knew that they could foul him and win games but when they discovered how inept he was as a defensive player, opposing teams owned the paint. Opposing coaches outsmarted Stan Van Gundy all season long. SVG is not a guy who can make adjustments because he had it set in stone that Andre Drummond and Reggie Jackson would come to life knowing the season was coming to a close and show their real abilities and get the team into the playoffs again. Remember that Reggie Jackson did that the season before so that was Stan's lone game plane. He didn't care if his offense didn't fit his players. He was OK with letting Stanley Johnson flounder around trying to figure out how he could impact that stupid offense where you just stand around.

Yet here we are and all we talk about is which player Stan is looking at in the draft. Or will KCP sign a max contract with the Pistons and what is Baynes going to do? How about Johnson will not play in the summer league but Ellenson will play? See there is nothing real to talk about is there. The team will go to training camp with perhaps one more new player from the draft unless Van Gundy trades that pick to get an old warn out 3 point shooter. No real problem will be addressed. If this is true can anyone imagine what the team chemistry will be like next season? The owner is AWOL in my opinion. We will suffer for one more season. And the players outside the click will also suffer. We will never know their true value. But one thing is for sure that the press keeps on telling us almost everyday. The coaching staff with Stan Van Gundy are working real hard. Oh they are really hard workers. Nobody out works Stan Van Gundy. Yes it appears that this story line is much like the guy who decides to renovate his old bathroom and takes 2 years to do it. He works really hard but makes a lot of mistakes installing the plumbing and gets the project almost finished but damn a big water leak ruins everything he has done. Stan Van Gundy has taken out the HEART of this team. His pet franchise player has shown no heart and has lost the trust of his teammates when he became a snitch. Work around that if you can. Nothing will change until the HEARTLESS ONE IS GONE.

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Drafting

Post  BallinD on Sun May 14, 2017 11:47 am

So it appears we have no glaring needs in the draft, to hear them tell it...Mediocrity and Ignorance is Bliss, I guess. How about the worst shooting team in the league, how about one of the worst offensively challenged teams in the league, a team lacking in chemistry and identity.

Once again VanBower has spun a tale and the public is running with it.  How about we need a shooter or two.  How about we need a rim protector.  How about we need a perimeter defender who can also initiate and run a pro-style offense and knock down shots.  How about we need a wily veteran.

I think in this draft, we should be trying to get as many picks as possible through judicious trading, but can we trust
Stan to draft and play the right man?  It seems to me that SJ and Ellensen could have some serious synergy on the floor if played together and may become special.

I am firmly in the camp of taking calculated risks ...That Is Not Blowing It Up ... to get better based on need and fit, not sit around on our hands and spout the "draft the best player" and that is that drivel they spoon out to us.  Can we draft a stud?  Rookies playing in the playoffs for SA, and other teams expose SVG's stupidity in refusing to play Ellensen.  Does he wanna be a Popovich or a D'antonio ( shortened his rotation down to 7).  We know he aspires to be D'antoni, but he needs to be nudged toward Pop and Casey and Stevens and other innovators from the bench


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Oracle

Post  deusXango on Sun May 14, 2017 2:13 am

Oracle wrote:@Don - Please read before you get out too far ahead of your headlights...

Oracle wrote:I don't think you all are haters, but it's hard to figure where a lot of this is coming from in the face of clear logic and facts.
Obviously you don't belong to that camp. I'm not out to punish, just to point out what you don't want to say. BTW, the draft is a total crap shoot as you should know, since damn near everything you said about Stanley Johnson turned out to be totally false. Hopefully he recovers from the false praise you and others heaped on his rookie shoulders.

On another note... you tell weird stories just like Lee356/357.

@DX - I can't figure out where you're coming from.

DX wrote:I'm hating because I don't want to experience another year of watching asshole ball.

So, just who is responsible for that and then who are you hating on?
I'm not hating on any player, even though the ones SVG chose to unadvisedly play ahead of players that were more fit should've manned up and taken the "high road"; when you don't, that's not competiveness, it's selfishness! SVG put this team together and is responsible for game planning, player development, and coaching, which IMO he failed on all counts; so my hating is not player directed, but SVG directed. I apologize for not being clear.
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PISTON MANAGEMENT THOUGHT THEY HAD SUCH A GREAT TEAM THAT THIS DRAFT WOULD'T BE A BIG THING

Post  cool breeze on Sat May 13, 2017 8:33 pm

Total mis calculation with planning and talent selection makes this draft vey important. Yet we have no 2nd round pick which is deadly this season because of the talent available in the 2nd round. There are three players who played for Oregon last season who I like. Brooks is a guy that the experts have little respect for yet he is a killer player who every college coach in the PAC 12 feared most of all. But another player on his team is listed in the 2nd round as well and I can't believe it. Tyler Dorsey is a first round pick any day of the week. I am not sure he has signed with an agent and if not he should pull out of the draft and show he game at Oregon again. I think that the experts who rate players seldom watch teams like Oregon. Those teams need to make the NCAA finals to get any press. Dorsey is a clutch shooter, driver, passer and defender. He is tough as hell and is a hard worker always improving. If he stays in the draft, some team is going to have a rotation player next year and most likely a team like the Spurs will pick him up for next to nothing. Dorsey would beat KCP out of his job real quick. Piston fans would have died and gone to heaven. He would fit SVG's game well because he is a dead eye outside shooter with defensive players hanging all over him. If Oregon hasn't lost their best defender and shot blocker in the PAC12 tournament due to injury, Oregon would have dominated the NCAA tournament. Looking at some of the other players listed in the 2nd round makes me ill thinking that we will not one of those guys.

It appears that Detroit will not draft a point guard and I am surprised that Ferguson did not get an interview with Detroit. Will the Pistons try to sign one or more players at the combine who stay in the draft but are not picked? That is something the Spurs would do but not Piston management. Our team is set. Last season was a fluke. We will win the championship next year. Everything is great and there is nothing to worry about. Detroit has the best coaches in the entire league. They will figure it out.

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Van Gundy should consider checking into the Betty Ford clinic to control his eating disorder

Post  cool breeze on Sat May 13, 2017 7:56 pm

Wow I just saw Stan Van Gundy and his buddy who acts as the GM walking around at the Chicago Combine and it wasn't pretty. How in hell are they able to function well while carrying that much weight? I have nothing against Stan Van Gundy and thought things would really improve in Piston land when he was hired. This past season made be sour on him and I have to admit that at times I have been cruel in my assessment of how he runs things and who he puts in charge. Now I am worried about him more than anything else. He does not look well. Stan doesn't take care of himself. He should take some time off and get his weight under control before training camp. I'm serious both Stan and Jeff look like they are about to have massive heart attacks. Stan looks like a bowling ball and he shakes a lot.

You can't make sound decisions when you feel like crap. I can't see how Stan can feel good. The best thing SVG can do for himself is to concentrate on losing at least 60 pounds before September and then another 30 pounds during the season. He and Andre should work together to find a new diet. For Stan it might save him his life.

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Which way to go...

Post  Oracle on Sat May 13, 2017 7:01 pm

Here is my thought, and I do like what Lemonpen had to say,
Lemonpen wrote: In my mind we cannot go into next season with 3 huge contracts none of which is for an established All Star. Its tough to plan on some unnamed FA, draft pick or trade prospect.
On May 22nd my preference is to pay KCP and say bye-bye to RJax.

First, I agree that 3 large contracts without one star among them is not sustainable, and I like your solution with some additional information.

Drummond: Yeah he looks like trash, but it's way too early to give up on him, but if we were to do that, we blew it big time when we passed on Cousins. He would have been a centerpiece to actually build around and it's hard for me to see how we wouldn't be in the playoffs regularly. Deals like that just don't happen too often, so Drummond is worth keeping because what he does, he does very well, unfortunately what he doesn't do well he totally sucks at, but that can change.

Reggie: His health issues can be managed by playing him fewer minutes and saving him for end of game situations, but that's not the biggest issue with him. Reggie's problems are legion,
1. He's past 25 and the type of issues he has never get better, just worse.
2. His style of play is an issue, but just like his health, it also can be managed
3. The biggest issue is that he's holding back the progress of Harris & KCP, both of whom need the ball to move to stay in the flow. KCP and Stanley suffer the most as they can go many possessions with quality touches.

Considering all of this, we should look to move Reggie, but it may not be workable before the season starts, it may not happen until the Feb. Deadline.

KCP: The only smart thing to do is to sign him, there isn't any other choice. I prefer to keep KCP, but if there is a S&T that makes a lot of sense then we would be fools not to entertain it. But a move just to make one makes no sense, and we need to wait to see how things play out.

Nothing is valuable unless you value it. Only Drummond isn't playing up to his contract, Reggie played his heart out last season after he got paid, I expect KCP to do the same and improve as well.

That's the big 3. After that, we have to wonder how long we want to keep Leuer, and that likely will depend on how fast Ellenson can develop.

However, we better pray that Baynes get a higher offer, because he could come back and we have to pay him.

So no, this isn't a blow it up plan in the short term, but keeping our options open to make smart moves as they present themselves. If we get into a situation where we have low paid guys, waiting around for their potential to show, we won't have tradable assets and because we can't attract the big FA's, we would be in a really bad place.
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No Don, we're living in the can't read to save your life times & stuff

Post  Oracle on Sat May 13, 2017 6:36 pm

@Don - Please read before you get out too far ahead of your headlights...

Oracle wrote:I don't think you all are haters, but it's hard to figure where a lot of this is coming from in the face of clear logic and facts.
Obviously you don't belong to that camp. I'm not out to punish, just to point out what you don't want to say. BTW, the draft is a total crap shoot as you should know, since damn near everything you said about Stanley Johnson turned out to be totally false. Hopefully he recovers from the false praise you and others heaped on his rookie shoulders.

On another note... you tell weird stories just like Lee356/357.

@DX - I can't figure out where you're coming from.

DX wrote:I'm hating because I don't want to experience another year of watching asshole ball.

So, just who is responsible for that and then who are you hating on?

Anybody ever heard of "Backup Quarterback Syndrome"?

If it was just one guy, maybe it's understandable, but the consensus around here is that damn near every backup is better than the starter, and that's a new one on me.

@Ballin - I hear you on the Singler issue, but we were so bad back then it wasn't about talent, but about at a minimum playing the right way. Bad analogy, but I did get your drift.

General Question: So the plan as I hear it is to draft, then dump as many of Reggie, Drummond & KCP as possible, count 3, pray, then bend over and kiss our collective asses goodbye? lol lol lol

Seriously, I'll say what I think in the next post.
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Are we living in a George Orwell novel? Oracle has declared that everyone who doesn't want to watch KCP are HATERS

Post  cool breeze on Sat May 13, 2017 3:59 pm

This is the old argument of intimidation that the philosophy of Objectivism warns all objective people to beware of. When you lear of read something that you don't like then just point a finger and call out the offender as a HATER. By evoking the HATE word the proper response is supposed to be shock and then a quick apology. The judge has decided an offense has been committed so what will be the punishment? Only in a totalitarian society do any of us have to fear retribution. This is "Newspeak" which is becoming more and more popular with the young people who have been led around like puppets by college professors. Just label someone with some word that has an emotional connection in popular Newspeak and condemn that person based on your gut feeling and give the offender a ticket to Siberia for a 10 year sentence. I am guilty Oracle. Are you in charge of the punishment?

It sure can get pretty silly when emotions are triggered while discussing basketball. The great thing is that we all care about the Pistons and do hate it when we are forced to watch dull basketball all season long.
Nobody wants to go through another season like the last one. To avoid that from happening, I would be happy to see Pope go out and get his big money from another team so the Pistons won't be handcuffed financially any more than they already are now. Also, isn't is smart to make changes when after several years there there has been no clear improvement in KCP's game? He is not an alpha dog. His standing as a starting 2 guard is way down the list of other starting 2 guards in the NBA. I liked what one of the announcers in last night's game said about John Wall and what Wall said helped him improve so much as a player over the past two years. A former pro suggested that Wall develop a change of pace in his offensive game. Wall is extremely fast and adding that ingredient has made him one of the top players in the game. He hit the winning shot after making a sensational drive to the rim with a 360 move for a layup around Boston's big interior defender. KCP has no change of pace as I have stated several times in the past. In addition, Pope has real problems with ball handling and dribbling. He takes big steps instead of little quick steps and cannot get himself under control on his drive attempts in the half court offense. There are many college players who play point guard and 2 guard who have outstanding dribbling or ball handling skills and some have developed a change of pace as well. And I agree with dX and Ballin who say Bullock is a better overall defender and if he can stay healthy is a better choice than KCP if you have to make that decision. Management would be foolish to offer KCP much money. If not Bullock then try out several other young guys until one sticks as a keeper.

I believe that Kobe Simmons has better potential to become a NBA star than Pope. He is listed in the 2nd round. Simmons played off the ball at Arizona as a freshman but he should have been the starting point guard. Talk about a great shooting stroke and ball handling skills. This guy has the change of pace, great ball handling, court vision, defensive ability and a high basketball IQ. He is skinny now but comparing Simmons to KCP relating to pure potential Simmons wins in every important area. And I only bring up Simmons for the same reason I mentioned Bullock. There are other players out there that can fill the need and have a higher upside than KCP. Kyle Anderson, Simmons and Murray are better players than Pope. Like other so called Haters have said, Pope got extreme minutes that he didn't earn. It was another decision by a flawed coach who is not objective minded. Detroit needs to suffer through another season and that should be it for Stan Van Gundy's nonsense. However, he might further damage the Pistons by signing Pope like he signed Drummond.

I base my judgment regarding Piston players on what I saw during Piston games. I think that Drummond is a nightmare type of player that we are stuck with unless a Josh Smith type of decision is made by the next coach. I would be so happy if SVG would or could trade him for nothing if necessary just to lose the contract. Dido Reggie Jackson. However, Oracle I pull for those players to do well once a game is in progress and hope that they give a better effort and are smarter than they show me. I never hate any player. This is only a game. The players are people and I don't hate anyone.

What I don't like is when it is necessary to set the record straight with finger pointers. One of my only fist fights as an adult came in a pick up basketball game two days after I had completed a marathon. You stay pretty emotional for several days after an event like that and I was just shooting free throws minding my own business when a nice kid begged me to play with their team because they only had 4 players. All went well and we won the first game. Winners take on the next team and the next team wore uniforms and were medical doctors who came on the court pushing and shoving and acting way to serious maybe because they had never been good enough to play organized basketball as kids. Sure enough one short dude stopped play and bitched out one of the teenaged guys I was playing with and called a moving screen like the kid had committed murder. The kid had set the screen for me and I passed the ball back to him and he made a short jump shot. I thought the kid was well positioned. But the doctor kept getting closer and closer to the kid and put a finger on the kid's chest kept poking him. I stepped in and told the punk doctor know it all that he needed to calm down and to not touch the kid along with offering more talk intended to calm the waters. It didn't work and the guy then got in my face or about 2 inches from it and then made the mistake of jabbing me with his damn finger. That was it, I grabbed the finger and bent it backwards and then he tried to slug me. I won't go any further but I doubt he will ever do that same thing again unless it is with a defenseless woman. That emotional bully doctor used another form of the argument of intimidation on the kid without words being the weapon. He used the finger to physically push another person to intimidate just as you used the word HATER to try to win something perhaps an argument. But just to set the record straight, I do not think any fan who writes on this forum hates any Piston player in any way. We might not like having certain types of players on the Piston team because of the way they play or the amount of money they want, but please stop this nonsense. I might sound cruel when I try to breakdown say Drummond's approach to playing basketball. This kind of thing needs to be said by his coaches so he might attempt to change how he plays. Coaches have jerked me around and said some real nasty things to me in the past. But I always sucked it up and got mad at first but as my Dad used to say, listen to the coach if he gets on you because he cares about helping you to improve or he wouldn't say anything. Perhaps Andre Drummond never had a Dad to set him straight. We are sometimes our own worst enemy. My wife corrects me and sets me straight now in my adult life. Is there a coach out there who can set Andre straight and help him get on a path to success? Should somebody send him some old Ben Wallace game tapes? Would he watch them? Andre Drummond, not KCP is the key to success for the Pistons. If he can be traded - GREAT because the team can add new players until we get a good center. If Andre could somehow change and transform into a defensive star by dominating the defensive boards, making it impossible for opposing players to get shots off in the paint, play his man tightly, dominate on the pick and roll plays on defense, and become the best shot blocker in the NBA, our Pistons could climb out of the toilet and make it to the finals. Instead of smiling and dancing in the pre game celebration, Andre would have a cold stare because he had mentally prepared himself to kick ass and take names once the tip off takes place. There would be no resting. It would be all hard work and deep concentration. The fans would chant Andre Andre. He would be a hero instead of being known as the underachiever guy who is over weight. I hoped I would see Andre transform before my eyes every time I started watching a game. It never happened so the first option is the soundest option. TRADE HIM IF POSSIBLE. Please don't take that as a hateful wish Oracle.

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I Remember Kyle Singler

Post  deusXango on Sat May 13, 2017 3:37 pm

BallinD wrote:Singler got all the minutes, got a few buckets here and there, there were moments but...he wasn't all that!  
Dude got all the playing time he could handle for us; was middling on a poor team, but for some reason our coaches and many misguided fans thought he was must-have, essential, had all these intangibles, had to start every game.  Well as soon as he went to OKC, he was exposed and never again saw the light of day.  Michael Curry anyone???

Not saying KCP is Kyle Singler, but similarly he is overvalued because our coach (Stupid Van Gundy) plays him when he's off target, doing his disappearing act, or is coming back from injury, out of rhythm, out of sorts, all day long, all season long and the numbers nor the eye test justifies it.  Middleton languished on the bench, didn't get much PT and look what he turned out to be.  

There are parallels here.  It wouldn't be the first time grizzled old coach overlooked diamond in the rough rather playing a safe middling choice.  We all have seen how SVG plays favorites, even to the detriment of the team!?!?!?

SVG played Leuer all those minutes, does that make him a good player.  What about Baynes over Boban. Your argument is because Bullock hasn't really got a shot at PT that he doesn't deserve a shot at PT?!?! Because the Basketball Savant SVG says so?!?!  Kuester  Get rid of our best shooter (Bullock) and our best shotmaker (Tobias) cause we certainly don't need none of that, right?!?!
Call me a hater because I'd love to see the Pistons play to the standards of Pistons champions, instead of dumb ass coaches favorites. Kyle Singler set the stage (in great part because he was the most recent mystery favorite) for my "hatred" because he came on the tail end of players like Jason Maxiell, Rodney Stuckey, and Lindsey Hunter, to name a few, who started and ate up PT all while better players languished on the bench. I remember 0 points, 0 rebounds, o assists, and 5 fouls in 20 minutes Michael Curry, who played in front of Tayshawn Prince. Was there a better player than Maxiell? Hell yes and if there wasn't, why not? Was there a better player than Stuckey? Several! What about Lindsey? Come on lol . These players only started for Detroit, in Detroit, because once they left....BENCH!

KCP has eaten up so much PT that it's been hard for the casual fan (I include myself in that number because I'm not privy to the practices, to see for myself, to determine the true value of bench players or players being hidden in the D-league) to really know who's the best fitting player and most productive at SG...this has not been addressed in 3 years and it should've been because of the inconsistency of KCP. The length of time he's spent on the court his numbers should be staggering, but they're mediocre for a none playoff team member and now fans want to justify giving him what he wants for mediocre play...I find that twisted in the strange world I live in. Damn the market, we should pay him what he's worth, but if someone wants to pay him an outrageous amount, so be it...be prepared to compensate us to the level of which YOU value him through S & T.

The fact is, I don't hate KCP and I do value what he brings to the table, but I don't favor paying another bench player star wages...our team is made up with bench players from Drummond to Smith; there are no stars, just some good players, and not too many of them. It's taken a jackass to push our payroll through the roof just to make it into the late lottery. I've already stated SVG can't coach winning basketball in todays game, now I'm getting a running start to blister his abilities as president (depending on how this years draft, FA signings, and trades go). I'm hating because I don't want to experience another year of watching asshole ball.

Why do the Pistons keep playing in that weak Orlando Pro Summer League? Why not go out west and try the Las Vegas Summer League?
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Reggie Bullock

Post  lemonpen on Sat May 13, 2017 2:20 pm

Oracle wrote:To a man the response has been more than strange, but has exposed the true facts.

Bullock is worst than a scrub, because at least a scrub shows up to play.

But that isn't what exposed you guys... nobody ever mentioned this being a choice between Bullock & KCP!

The ONLY one that should have thought that would have been me because you all assume/want KCP to be traded.

This should have been Bullock vs anybody else you could hope to get, but the hate was so strong, you picked your whipping boy... Yikes!

You guys are impervious to FACTS, but here are a few more.

Once you guys trade Reggie & KCP, please inform us who will we turn to when we need someone to put the team on his back and bring in the win? They're the ONLY two players we have that have and have proven to have that ability regularly. Nobody on this team does it better than these two.

I'll take damn near anybody rather than take Bullock, a guy that's NEVER taken over a game, who's highest scoring game likely was never 20 points and who probably never won a game by himself... seriously, how low can your standards be???

But obviously we're not talking facts or logic here, hate grinds those into the dust. For whatever reason, some of you simply can't stand to see KCP get paid what he can get in a free market... capitalism at work.

I don't think you all are haters, but it's hard to figure where a lot of this is coming from in the face of clear logic and facts.
Your concerns are certainly valid. There is a BIG difference between 15mpg and starters PT. More-so for a guy with a persistent injury history.
BUT, at this point Bullock is the only visible alternative. Silent G probably won't (shouldn't) make the cut and Hillard seems to be slated as a b/u or 3rd PG. In my mind we cannot go into next season with 3 huge contracts none of which is for an established All Star. Its tough to plan on some unnamed FA, draft pick or trade prospect.
On May 22nd my preference is to pay KCP and say bye-bye to RJax.
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Does Anyone Remember Kyle Singler

Post  BallinD on Sat May 13, 2017 9:00 am

Singler got all the minutes, got a few buckets here and there, there were moments but...he wasn't all that!
Dude got all the playing time he could handle for us; was middling on a poor team, but for some reason our coaches and many misguided fans thought he was must-have, essential, had all these intangibles, had to start every game.  Well as soon as he went to OKC, he was exposed and never again saw the light of day.  Michael Curry anyone???

Not saying KCP is Kyle Singler, but similarly he is overvalued because our coach (Stupid Van Gundy) plays him when he's off target, doing his disappearing act, or is coming back from injury, out of rhythm, out of sorts, all day long, all season long and the numbers nor the eye test justifies it.  Middleton languished on the bench, didn't get much PT and look what he turned out to be.  

There are parallels here.  It wouldn't be the first time grizzled old coach overlooked diamond in the rough rather playing a safe middling choice.  We all have seen how SVG plays favorites, even to the detriment of the team!?!?!?

SVG played Leuer all those minutes, does that make him a good player.  What about Baynes over Boban. Your argument is because Bullock hasn't really got a shot at PT that he doesn't deserve a shot at PT?!?! Because the Basketball Savant SVG says so?!?!  Kuester  Get rid of our best shooter (Bullock) and our best shotmaker (Tobias) cause we certainly don't need none of that, right?!?!


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The fresh smell of hate in the morning, LOL!

Post  Oracle on Sat May 13, 2017 8:19 am

To a man the response has been more than strange, but has exposed the true facts.

Bullock is worst than a scrub, because at least a scrub shows up to play.

But that isn't what exposed you guys... nobody ever mentioned this being a choice between Bullock & KCP!

The ONLY one that should have thought that would have been me because you all assume/want KCP to be traded.

This should have been Bullock vs anybody else you could hope to get, but the hate was so strong, you picked your whipping boy... Yikes!

You guys are impervious to FACTS, but here are a few more.

Once you guys trade Reggie & KCP, please inform us who will we turn to when we need someone to put the team on his back and bring in the win? They're the ONLY two players we have that have and have proven to have that ability regularly. Nobody on this team does it better than these two.

I'll take damn near anybody rather than take Bullock, a guy that's NEVER taken over a game, who's highest scoring game likely was never 20 points and who probably never won a game by himself... seriously, how low can your standards be???

But obviously we're not talking facts or logic here, hate grinds those into the dust. For whatever reason, some of you simply can't stand to see KCP get paid what he can get in a free market... capitalism at work.

I don't think you all are haters, but it's hard to figure where a lot of this is coming from in the face of clear logic and facts.
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KCP vs. Bullock...I'll take the bargain!

Post  deusXango on Sat May 13, 2017 1:27 am

Oracle, Oracle, my brother Oracle, have you taken a real look at the game/seasonal stats you provided us with? Regardless of how many games Bullock missed, he's a far better gamble, to excel, than KCP. A lot of those games Bullock missed, as a Piston, were DNPCD misses, that's why the sample size is so small, but numbers don't lie and the eye test should tell you the difference between Bullock and KCP. Bullock has played his best basketball for the Pistons and if given the chance, those numbers should go up; he's coming into the peak of his powers years.
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Re: FORUM

Post  cool breeze on Fri May 12, 2017 11:50 pm

Oracle wrote:
Don wrote:Ballin what I can't figure out is why management even ponders this situation relating to KCP and his quest for a huge contract. I totally agree with you on your analysis of the two players and believe Bullock for sure is a better defender, passer, ball handler and sees the floor better not counting his great shooting stroke. The argument some are making is the unknown relating to how KCP would fit in a system other than SVG's system. I still think KCP has some big flaws in this game with lack of ability to see the floor well and lack of a change of pace and ball control when he attempts to drive into the paint. This team will not be going anywhere upward for several years until Jackson and Drummond are gone anyway so signing Pope prevents the next coach after SVG from stealing players who are un drafted or playing in the D-League.
Ballin wrote:
I'm still firmly in the camp of let KCP go via S&T if possible and resign Bullock who defends better than KCP gives up 42% shooting vs 43% for KCP is our best shooter and has consistently been that best shooter over the past couple of seasons, though SVG gives all available minutes to KCP even when he is off and confessed he doesn't care how much or what quality of shots he puts up. But then he admits we are the worst shooting team in the NBA and admits he never designed plays for Boban (and certainly not for Bullock) SMH.

All of that based on this??? He played 43 games in his rookie season and never hit that mark again... yup, screams starting material!


No Oracle some of us free thinkers believe that scraping the idea of signing KCP is a good thing. I can only speak for myself but I do see more potential in Bullock than I see in KCP. Granted Bullock has been hit with some injuries but I like his defense better than Pope and he has better ball handling skills than Pope too. KCP has had a free pass like Drummond and Jackson. He never has had to worry about being out of favor of the coach like other players. He can go on horrible shooting nights and go home and sleep well. I wonder what some of the other players could do if they could get out of the dog house more. But the biggest reason is money. KCP is a huge gamble much like Drummond. Take another look at the salary payout on the Spurs. Then if you watched last night's game you would know that KCP has never played as well as the young bench players did in a big game that decided the series. Since when has Pope ever been a big time player? Yet he expects to be paid as much as Leonard. It would be a gamble for Detroit to pay Pope anything over $8 million a year tops. I would still worry about giving him that much money based on his play so far. But of course that doesn't worry Stan Van Gundy at all. I would sign Bullock for a modest sum and then do what the Spurs do. Stan needs to secure more draft picks this summer. There are some good players in the 2nd round. He must make an all out effort to beat the weeds down and find some potential stars in the D-League or in Europe. We don't have the players that can win in the NBA. Of course we don't have the coaching that can get us there either. And Stan's hand picked staff of assistant coaches have not shown that they are capable of making young players better.

Not signing KCP will offer the next coach more options. I expect Stan Van Gundy to be fired at the latest before next June. We cannot expect anything good to happen until he is gone. Then I want Zeke to be offered the same deal as SVG and I am sure the first thing he will do is move Drummond and Jackson. Then we will be in business and have hope for the future.

Maybe the only fun I will have next season is watching Ellenson if he gets to play. I have my doubts that will happen. SVG has a lot invested on Leuer and won't give up easily. Drummond and Jackson will be the team captains again and will be unsupervised by the coaching staff. Whatever they want to do, they will do. What does a small kid do when he ditches his Mother in a candy store? That is the way it works under SVG and his coaching staff. Drummond will be expecting a lot of touches on offense next year. We all know that he gets what he wants and if he doesn't he calls Tom Gores. Poor Stan might be looking forward to being fired. Andre will be working hard on his hook shot again. Don't mention defense to Andre. Don't mention shot blocking or boxing out. Don't mention losing weight and getting on a better diet. And no players only team meeting will be allowed by the two captains and their Mother, Stan Van Gundy. But all is not lost because at seasons end, we will be saying so long and good luck to Mother. And hopefully the two kids will be adopted by another team.

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Kennard, Ferguson...what about a 3 headed monster?!

Post  deusXango on Fri May 12, 2017 9:53 pm

BallinD, that was an awesome post and I agree with your assessment of Kennard totally...it's his lack of size, speed, and  athleticism, that I favor Ferguson over him, plus Kennard has the PG skills and capability to score 16 points off the bench easily. The perfect 6th man! I mentioned in an earlier post that Ntilikina, Ferguson, and Kennard are the players I want NOW to begin building around. If we had a forward thinking, innovative, president that could gather those players together, we'd see a team much better than the Jackson/Smith led team we seem destined to go downtown with. Why are we content with thinking drafting #12 only and have so much trade bait sitting around, anxious to be traded? Other than Drummond, Boban, Harris, Morris, Ellenson, and resigning Bullock, does anyone actually believe we can't get another lottery pick and mid first rounder with the remainder of our roster?

Damn, we need a coach in the worst way and for those that can't/won't see it now, wait until the All-Star break next year. If the team that SVG assembles is playing .500 basketball then, I'll eat crow; I expect to be feasting on King Crab legs however.
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You can't make this stuff up...

Post  Oracle on Fri May 12, 2017 9:19 pm

Don wrote:Ballin what I can't figure out is why management even ponders this situation relating to KCP and his quest for a huge contract. I totally agree with you on your analysis of the two players and believe Bullock for sure is a better defender, passer, ball handler and sees the floor better not counting his great shooting stroke. The argument some are making is the unknown relating to how KCP would fit in a system other than SVG's system. I still think KCP has some big flaws in this game with lack of ability to see the floor well and lack of a change of pace and ball control when he attempts to drive into the paint. This team will not be going anywhere upward for several years until Jackson and Drummond are gone anyway so signing Pope prevents the next coach after SVG from stealing players who are un drafted or playing in the D-League.
Ballin wrote:
I'm still firmly in the camp of let KCP go via S&T if possible and resign Bullock who defends better than KCP gives up 42% shooting vs 43% for KCP is our best shooter and has consistently been that best shooter over the past couple of seasons, though SVG gives all available minutes to KCP even when he is off and confessed he doesn't care how much or what quality of shots he puts up. But then he admits we are the worst shooting team in the NBA and admits he never designed plays for Boban (and certainly not for Bullock) SMH.

All of that based on this??? He played 43 games in his rookie season and never hit that mark again... yup, screams starting material!

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Lemon, I really like this post because...

Post  Oracle on Fri May 12, 2017 8:29 pm

It's very balanced and reasoned. We get a lot of emotional posts and there's nothing wrong with that, loving your team tends to bring out that emotion, but I just thought this post was exceptional. Now about that loan I need...  lol
lemonpen wrote:Message to SVG & Co.
Anything less than being the best road dog (5th seed) in next years playoff will mean CURTAINS FOR U.  This year’s outcome doesn’t completely reset the clock.
Be very very careful how you play this Jackson – Drummond decision.  Who you hitch your wagon to will likely determine your future.
Is Andre repairable.  Can you guys not only re-establish his ascending trend but also raise his ceiling.
Is the question with RJax reeeally about health, or do you in your heart of hearts secretly question FIT.  In a head to head comparison there is NO 2 or 3 man combination with Ish that doesn’t outperform the same with Reggie.  Both offensively and defensively.  I repeat “NO” combinations.  

Stan claims to be willing to match any offer for KCP.  Given Pope’s continued yoy growth I won’t knock the decision.  What I will question is the sanity of such a plan if Reggie remains the starting PG.  Why retard the production of your newly minted high earner.   Van Gundy can,  (1) lose RJax for whatever can be gotten in return, then allow Ish to unleash Pope (and others);  Or (2), seek a S&T for KCP (again getting whatever we can in return), then retain Bullock as the SG along side RJAX.  It all depends on their plan for RJ.

Power Forward
Let the competition begin.  Or not, and just roll with Henry in the starting unit while pretending there was ever a competition (my choice).  In his short end of year debut Ellenson demonstrated too many tantalizing positives to believe he would not surpass Leuer inside of a season.

After watching Simmons vs the Rockets I’m left asking how the Freak did the Spurs grow that from an undrafted guy while we get Johnson on the other (spelled expensive) end of the draft spectrum.  Doesn't that strongly suggests that if coaching ain’t everything it's damn close.

I believe the Spurs just confirmed that a game predicated on abundant 3 point shooting is highly over-rated.  They clubbed the Rockets to death 2 points at a time.  

Does Lowery entering the free agent market make KCP just a little less expensive.

Think twice about wooing Teague.  He is a pretend All Star.  His reluctance to step up along with George is mostly what doomed the Pacers.  Sits in the background too much for his talent level.  Atlanta felt the same pinch.
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Bullock & KCP

Post  Oracle on Fri May 12, 2017 8:26 pm

Amazing you guys keep bringing this guy up who can't stay on the floor to save his life... what a joke! He's always hurt and no GM or coach would trust their future on a guy that plays at most a quarter of a season per year.

@Ballin - It's well established that numbers in a short stint generally go down, that's why most basketball minds recognize that the projections to minutes varies wildly.

Sadly, you prove my point when you simply can't find his numbers for anything resembling a full season... tell me again why you're so high on this walking MASH Unit  lol

I think we can go one of 3 ways with KCP, 

1. S&T
2. Sign Him and keep him
3. Sign him and make a later move

Interesting that it's "Fans" that want to move him the most. Not saying that Fans can't be right, but it's just an observation.
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Re: FORUM

Post  cool breeze on Fri May 12, 2017 7:53 pm

BallinD wrote:Guys, I'm liking Kennard (handles + Shot + BBIQ) over Ferguson, but I'm not mad at Ferguson, I just think he's more a scorer than a shooter and we need a shooter, we already have a scorer (KCP) and that's not the answer for this team. Plus because Kennard has handles and "feel for the game," he would be a complement to Weggie who wants to pound the air out of the ball and pass to himself. We need another secondary ballhandler (KCP ain't that) for our predictable, pedestrian offense.

I'm still firmly in the camp of let KCP go via S&T if possible and resign Bullock who defends better than KCP gives up 42% shooting vs 43% for KCP is our best shooter and has consistently been that best shooter over the past couple of seasons, though SVG gives all available minutes to KCP even when he is off and confessed he doesn't care how much or what quality of shots he puts up. But then he admits we are the worst shooting team in the NBA and admits he never designed plays for Boban (and certainly not for Bullock) SMH.

Oracle, you said if he shot more, he would inevitably shoot it worse, don't know why you are offering an opinion as a fact, but it fits with the conventional wisdom that says KCP is a can't miss part of our core, yet he shot worse from the floor than Ish last year 39% vs 42%. Bullock shot 38.5% from 3 in 25 games with LAClippers in 2014-15, 41.5% from 3 for us 2015-16 in 37 games and 38.4% last year in 31 games, including 5-6 in our last game. It's not a fluke and from the eye test he is a wash with KCP, moves better without the ball (cuts and screens) and would be helluva cheaper. 6'7" vs 6'5", what's not to like. I like the way the team plays when he is given quality minutes.

Ballin what I can't figure out is why management even ponders this situation relating to KCP and his quest for a huge contract. I totally agree with you on your analysis of the two players and believe Bullock for sure is a better defender, passer, ball handler and sees the floor better not counting his great shooting stroke. The argument some are making is the unknown relating to how KCP would fit in a system other than SVG's system. I still think KCP has some big flaws in this game with lack of ability to see the floor well and lack of a change of pace and ball control when he attempts to drive into the paint. This team will not be going anywhere upward for several years until Jackson and Drummond are gone anyway so signing Pope prevents the next coach after SVG from stealing players who are un drafted or playing in the D-League.

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Re: FORUM

Post  cool breeze on Fri May 12, 2017 7:31 pm

Oracle wrote:You're missing the point!

They aren't great players by any standard, hell, some of them aren't that good, and if we got them they'd be 10 times worse.

You fail to see what's right in front of you.

High IQ is either something the player already has(not likely), or almost always, it's been drilled into them by the coach and enforced by the system.

It's ALL coaching, the invisible hand that guides teams and fools the casual fans into believing it's all the players.

If we had the same players playing this 4 out 1 in, camp out at the 3 point line, they might win a few more games, but likely would get worse over the course of the season.

You guys would think KCP was one of the best 2 guards in the league is SVG's system didn't have him jacking up 3's even when he's off all while he discourages KCP from taking better shots. KCP's 3 point average would be closer to 40%, but they love to toss it to him when other stuff isn't working, and yet he still shot 35%... amazing! BTW, all of his averages would be stellar if SVG sat his ass when he's off, or just moved the ball better so his assists could go up.

There's just way too much standing around in SVG's offense, but he blames it on the players... go figure.

But the bottom line is that while Reggie & Drummond are issues, I see coaching as the biggest issue, I just hope SVG sees it sooner rather than later.

Oracle have you ever played on an organized team or coached? By saying that the coach is more important than anything makes me think you have never been involved personally. The right combination is having players to play with that have a high aptitude and desire to succeed along with a really smart and dedicated coach or better yet a group of coaches who are all on the same page. I learned as a young kid playing my first season on the varsity in high school how important it was to play with players who know what they are doing. I sure didn't know it all but I had some older guys who were smart as hell and quick to make great decisions on the floor. Basketball is a game where you have to have the ability to react quickly to situations on both offense and defense. You can't get help from the coach once the game begins. You depend on your teammates on both offense and defense. There has to be some form of comfort and confidence that makes the game really enjoyable to have success. To play with players you highly respect because of the way they play makes you feel twice as strong and smart because the game is so damn fun it is crazy. The coaches get you going in the right direction and set the tone for what they feel might be the best way to play relating to the type of offense and defense that fit the specific players the best. You trust the coaches to make the right decisions in that regard. But if you play with players who are dumb as hell relating to having a basketball IQ, it is pure hell to be out there playing with them. It is up to the coach to remove the bad players to avoid a total disaster. There are some players you just cannot make better. They are too far gone or never learned how to play the right way in Jr High. It is too bad but that is life. The rest of the team should not have to suffer so the coach absolutely has to do the right thing. But the NBA is a different animal. So many owners, GMs, and head coaches play politics as dX has outlined many times in the past.

I have never played for or coached with bad coaches. But for some reason I get this sense that somehow the Piston assistant coaches are a real problem. Are they giving out mixed messages to the players? Do the coaches treat certain players differently than others? Are they true coaches or are they trying to become close friends with the players? Is the head coach directly involved in the practice situations and does he supervise his assistant coaches when the team breaks into smaller groups depending on positions?

Something is wrong in Piston land. How in hell can the defense still look the same as it did 3 years ago? I see no improvement. No player on the team has stood out as a shot blocker. WHY? If the starting highly paid center has not been coached well enough to show some skill at blocking shots, who is responsible? It appears that SVG thinks it is not Andre Drummond's fault because he selected Andre as the team leader along with Reggie Jackson. Why is Reggie such a horrible defender after all this time in the league? Who is responsible for that?

The owner should be asking the above mentioned questions so where in hell is he? It starts with the head coach who did not recognize the strengths and weaknesses of his players and then FAILED to create a system that would work the best for his specific players not use the system the coach dreams about at night. The Spurs won by 39 points not playing your insane 3 point game Stan. The Pistons all play like individuals not teammates. I think that the lack of player movement is due to the way both point guards play on offense and this can be traced directly back to Tim Hardaway and SVG. They have a faulty system. Both Jackson and Smith try to create something either for themselves or their teammates. You have to let the game come to you even if you are playing point guard and react according to how the opposing team is defending you on any specific night. You must be able to adjus. Notice last night several players played the point guard role in the sense that they brought the ball up the court. I especially like it when Ginobili starts the half court offense. His court vision is outstanding and has already figured out how his team should attack the defense. The Pistons have the one man show bringing the ball up the court and then dribbling around until he makes something happen. This is first level play basketball and the result is that the Pistons are easy to guard and very predictable. The opposing team might have a player on the floor with a broken leg and the Piston offense will still function the same way. No adjustment would be made to exploit the other team's weakness. We have a dumb looking team and a dumb acting head coach who continues on with his game plan regardless of what is happening.

The biggest problem of all is that Stan Van Gundy has zero control of his team for obvious reasons. He knows this season the team had the worst team chemistry in the entire league. They were known as the under achievers. Instead of looking inward Stan thinks this was a fluke and will never happen again. But I see why the team chemistry is bad. The team has a team leader that other players do not respect as a player. They like him as a man and friend but not as their team leader. That guy is Andre Drummond. DIDO for the other proclaimed leader by SVG, Reggie Jackson. This is a real mess and will not get better without a real change. Detroit needs a established highly talented franchise type player that opposing teams fear playing against. Then everything falls in line. That is what is missing. We got such a player in Zeke through the draft who became a team leader as a rookie. It can change that quick. We got Mr. BigShot and Ben Wallace the enforcer shot blocker through free agency and trades. Once you get one or two studs and then add the great coaching, a team can blossom into something special. I see no player on this Piston team that has the right stuff that any other team really fears playing against. And I suspect that all opposing teams have little respect for Stan Van Gundy's ability to select the right combinations or select the correct style that will bring out some fear in the hearts of players who face the Pistons.

I guess it is time to let this all go. There is nothing we fans can do to change anything. It is laughable that this owner has any trust in Stan Van Gundy after what happened this past season and thinking about how he has handcuffed the Pistons because of the way he has spent the owners money. This management team should have predicted the outcome of this horrible season much earlier than the last week of the season. SVG even screwed Detroit's chances of getting a better draft pick although the starters did get blown out a lot in the first quarter of most games in the last month of the season. Maybe I am wrong about that statement.

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Draft and Stuff

Post  BallinD on Fri May 12, 2017 7:12 pm

Guys, I'm liking Kennard (handles + Shot + BBIQ) over Ferguson, but I'm not mad at Ferguson, I just think he's more a scorer than a shooter and we need a shooter, we already have a scorer (KCP) and that's not the answer for this team. Plus because Kennard has handles and "feel for the game," he would be a complement to Weggie who wants to pound the air out of the ball and pass to himself. We need another secondary ballhandler (KCP ain't that) for our predictable, pedestrian offense.

I'm still firmly in the camp of let KCP go via S&T if possible and resign Bullock who defends better than KCP gives up 42% shooting vs 43% for KCP is our best shooter and has consistently been that best shooter over the past couple of seasons, though SVG gives all available minutes to KCP even when he is off and confessed he doesn't care how much or what quality of shots he puts up. But then he admits we are the worst shooting team in the NBA and admits he never designed plays for Boban (and certainly not for Bullock) SMH.

Oracle, you said if he shot more, he would inevitably shoot it worse, don't know why you are offering an opinion as a fact, but it fits with the conventional wisdom that says KCP is a can't miss part of our core, yet he shot worse from the floor than Ish last year 39% vs 42%. Bullock shot 38.5% from 3 in 25 games with LAClippers in 2014-15, 41.5% from 3 for us 2015-16 in 37 games and 38.4% last year in 31 games, including 5-6 in our last game. It's not a fluke and from the eye test he is a wash with KCP, moves better without the ball (cuts and screens) and would be helluva cheaper. 6'7" vs 6'5", what's not to like. I like the way the team plays when he is given quality minutes.
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