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Can't Have it Both Ways, or any way, Ballin & ECF

Post  Oracle on Mon May 22, 2017 1:37 pm

@Don, having FAILED to address the only point of the post because as usual, your comments are poorly thought out and wrong, then you proceed to unleash a wave of hate at KCP & Drummond. I have no idea what's going on in your life, but obviously something is very wrong, you used to have very well thought out comments... in all caps, but well thought out.

@Ballin - I think Lemonpen made a good point about KP, and I'm backing off not adding the 1st round pick, which likely won't get a shot by SVG. I doubt throwing in KCP makes a lot of sense to NY since they'll be giving us a guy on his rookie contract and taking on Drummond's 25M, why would they entertain KCP's cost?

The ECF is interesting. I was going to post yesterday that I don't believe in Cleveland's conversion to greatness. By finishing 2nd, they avoided the Wizards, who likely would have lost to them, but who match up a lot better and would have a chance to beat them. The good news for Cleveland is that they match up with GS very well, but they may still lose.
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$$$$$$$$

Post  lemonpen on Mon May 22, 2017 1:30 pm

BallinD wrote:That should be enough to get Porzingis or other similar stars soon to be available in this invaluable offseason when so many pieces will be in play.  Drummond and a pick or a piece, KCP? Ellensen.  We must not be desparate and we must make the salaries work.  

I would do that for a young star in the mold of long, lean, can shoot and truly play inside-out.  If we can get KP or George, or Butler, or Isaiah Thomas, or Griffin we will actually have a star to build a core around.  We can then build a core and by the time Lebron is done, we will be positioning ourselves to compete with a new core.  We currently do not have one.

If forced to make salaries work wouldn't we have to take some mix of large/med/small matching contracts back, cause the Zinger is still on a rookie deal.  As I indicated earlier if PK has superstar written all over him, and he is cheap, and locked up for a while longer, and NO star free agent is knocking on our door,  why on earth would we suddenly become so cost conscience.  Hasn't the last 35 years proven that ya gotta have a superstar to have a hope.
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Can't Have it Both Ways

Post  lemonpen on Mon May 22, 2017 1:16 pm

cool breeze wrote:
Oracle wrote:@Don - There's an old saying, "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and to remove all doubt.".

The corollary here is that it's better to be a minor loser than to tank Hinkie style and be exposed as a total loser.

Ok, the analogy isn't all that great, LOL, but you get the point.

Don, when did this level of thinking EVER deliver on single championship in the last 20 years? The days when this made a lick of sense are gone, nobody can win that way! BTW, this level of tanking is doing Philly a hell of a lot of good Smile 

Drummond: I'm willing to go one more year with this team as it is with some tweaks internally and externally. I don't mind if we trade anybody on the team if it improves us, but one idea that was floated in the press, while a long shot, I'd jump all over in a NY minute(pun intended).

Porzingis for Drummond would be a GREAT trade for us and I wouldn't throw in our current first round pick as the article has, just a straight up trade since they're hating on Kristaps right now.

Tanking or blowing up what doesn't work is a no brainer for me. I actually watched the dysfunction very closely as my buddies who have all dropped out of Piston basketball watching. It is not difficult to see with your own eyes that several highly paid Piston players are not keepers. Once you play with no passion you have lost most most people who love the game of basketball. Clouding the issue by talking it up relating to moving players down the road is just a cop out and should only be used by the management team that is trying to cover up their mistakes. If Stan Van Gundy would just come clean and tell the fans he made some big mistakes by signing Drummond, Over paying Jackson, and even thinking about signing Pope to a long term contract, I would respect Stan a lot more. Fans are just gullible as hell. Right now there is some sucker who would consider taking on Drummond's contract. His misleading stats might fool some GM but it won't happen if the Pistons start another season with him. The burden with the payroll is significant. There can be no surprise young star player coming to the Pistons in the future if Detroit is paying Jackson, Drummond and Pope money that should only go to a high caliber proven player. Jackson, Drummond and Pope do not scare any team in the NBA. Instead all NBA teams look forward to playing against those three players. All three are dysfunctional in several categories and they just do not click with each other. Any new players who play the right way with high energy will be bitter in a matter of a few weeks if they get stuck playing with those players.

Pope has not shown anything special at all and instead has revealed several key weaknesses that will prevent him from becoming a consistent offensive threat. His defense is way over rated as he proved with his match ups with top tier guards this past season. If he was going to show that he was a first class player who can deliver in a playoff situation than he would have done that this season because this is his money season. Why would anyone expect next season will be more productive than his money season??? But all I hear is that it is automatic that Pope will get a 5 year deal for over 100-115 million for 5 years. You have to be a complete idiot to do that in my opinion. Why not just let him go and play another young guy for two or more years? What do the Pistons gain by signing him? We have all seen how he plays and it is clear that he will never be a high IQ winning type player unless management trades both Jackson and Drummond. Still Pope has not earned that kind of money. His ball handling for a 2 guard is below standard. His court vision is below standard. KCP is not a good passer. He is not a good shot creator. The worst part is that Pope does not play all out for an entire game. He plays hard at his own selected moments. Bot this is the most important thing that bugs me. Nobody in Piston management has ever identified why they MUST SIGN POPE. WHY? Please provide the details that warrant handing out this big contract and thus paralyzing the team even further. It is as if they might lose Labron James. If a healthy Bullock had been pampered as much by giving him the most minutes of any player for several seasons I think that Bullock, Johnson, or Hilliard would be just as good as KCP. He has not had to have his confidence shaken at all by any coach though out his time as a Piston. Nothing to worry about relating to being on the court. Meanwhile, every other young player has been tortured mentally by never feeling like their coach has their back. They can never feel confident of their position on the team from game to game. Being that Pope has had the full blessing of his coaches for a long time, I would expect that he would stand out every game as a real hard nosed player. That hasn't happened. He happened with Isiah Thomas and Joe Dumars. It happens on other NBA teams. KCP is not Leonard. But he will get the kind of money that Leonard gets. That is why other NBA players laugh at Piston management and get a little pissed knowing that guys like Pope, Drummond and Jackson are not in their league.

Sign and trade with Pope is OK if we get something great. If we get rid of Drummond and Jackson for draft picks and expiring contracts, the Pistons have a future. This is not the old way Oracle. All of the smart GMs are trying to get the top college players out of the draft knowing that their vet players cannot compete with the top 4 NBA teams currently playing. How did Detroit get Isiah Thomas? He was the 2nd overall pick. There is your proof. You cannot sign 2nd rate players like Leuer while paying dead weight players like Drummond, Jackson and now Pope and expect to win. You can't sign players like Smith and expect to win in the playoffs. Call me stupid but you will be crying the blues once we get into the months of January, Feb. and March again. That is when our losers play a little softer and think that nobody is watching. I sure am not going to waste any more of my time watching Detroit's Big Three. What more is there to see? The Big Three suck and I feel sorry for the players who are stuck playing with them.

Imagine how cocky KCP will be next fall as he takes home those big checks. Will he ignore his coach like Andre did this past season? Stan will be puzzled regarding the horrible team chemistry and the 3 point shots won't be falling like he thought. Then the trade deadline will approach and Piston management will once again say everyone is available for trade consideration but the deal must be really good. Then they will make up stories about all the calls they got but nothing was good enough for Stan's players. His guys are just having more bad luck. Then Detroit will get the 12th spot again in the draft and no 2nd round pick. Management will still have no takers for the Big Three from their secret calls made with every NBA team. Please take Andre, Reggie or KCP we will throw in a lot of money. PLEASE!! So again the spin stories will start that this team has taken longer than expected to gel but don't worry we will do some tweaking and keep this great core and will win big next season. After all Andre Drummond was unable to play for 3 months because of a injured left ear lobe. He did come back in April to finish the season weighing in at 310 pounds. Pope will have filled out his uniform in the belly area as well. Jackson will still be having breathing issues but the knee worked great. Meanwhile teams that continue to beat Detroit will be tanking for one more season to snag a top draft pick. Then three years from that time, Labron will announce his retirement. This will be the time when the Pistons will do a Stuckey type thing and thinking that all NBA teams are secretly talking to Andre, will offer him another sweet contract and bid against themselves. Anybody who has watched the Detroit Pistons play basketball against New Orleans, New York Knicks, Miami and a host of other bad tanking teams and suffered though watching those games where our team at full strength lost should see through the bull crap. The only way any self respecting coach could show up to coach that group would have to for the money because it can't be fun to be around players who do not improve and do not give an honest effort. But smoke and mirrors can work on some fans so opening night next fall will feature some pretty women dancing much better than Andre Drummond dances in the circle before the game starts. Imagine Bill Russell dancing in the circle and the coming out and playing with his arms below his waist. YEE HAW.

You went above & beyond to criticize every real and imaginary characteristic of KCP, BUT still look for something "great" in return.
Man o man !!
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ENTER JONAS JEREBCO AND THE CELTICS WIN-ANOTHER REASON WHY SIGNING POPE IS REALLY STUPID

Post  cool breeze on Mon May 22, 2017 2:34 am

JEREBCO: Who didn't love Jonas Jerebco when he played for Detroit? Somehow he was considered a 2nd rate player overlooked while other dysfunctional players took his rotation spot. Then of course one exceptionally smart coach Brad Stevens recognizes his value. One thing about Brad Stevens, he never allows any of his players to rest on the bench and acquire rust for very long. I kept wondering why the Jerebco experiment wasn't tried until the blow out in the 2nd game. This game showed everyone why Jonas had so many fans in Detroit. He played Love better than anyone so far in the playoffs. He took no crap from any Cleveland player throwing Love to the floor at one point. But better yet Jerebco drilled some clutch 3 point shots. Isn't Stan Van Gundy looking for a stretch 4 who can hit 3s and play defense? This season Jerebco made $5 million and has no contract next season yet. Will Cleveland snatch him away from the rest of the slow minded management teams like Detroit? Who is a better all around player, Jon Leuer or Jonas Jerebco? Jerebco started a lot of games for the Celtics this past season. I would think that Boston would sign him again. But how Detroit let this guy go is insane and how they played him as a Piston is inexcusable. Jonas is not a guy who will stand around much. So he won't be a good fit for Stan Van Gundy's team. I have to wonder how SVG felt after he read about Andre Drummond interview with the press. My teammates just need a lot of REST.

POPE: I don't really want to discuss the Pope situation where it seems there isn't even any discussion about possibly not signing him. It is automatic. Piston management has spoken. Yet I see that Avery Bradley makes a little over 8 million a year. Who is the better player? Who is a key player for Boston in the playoffs this season? who made the winning shot in Cleveland? Bradley is one of the best on ball guard defenders in the NBA. I loved the series with Boston vs Washington. Where Beal and Wall can score at will against Pope anytime they want to, it was different in that playoff series when Bradley was playing on either of the Washington stars. Bradley had the reputation of an outstanding NBA defender up until this past year. As Chris Webber informed game watches tonight, Bradley put in one hell of a summer working on his ball handling skills and finishing at the rim along with hours of shooting the outside shot. So who is the better player, Pope or Bradley? Piston fans it isn't even close. Bradley might be the best defensive guard in the NBA now. He is young. His quickness is outstanding. But his HEART is what separates him from the average NBA guards. Pope didn't put in that same amount of work last summer or if he did, he worked on the wrong things. After Pope's first NBA season he should have been working hard on his ball handling skills. He doesn't get down low enough to protect the basketball and his dribble is too high. He takes too many big steps and has no change of pace. Somehow the details do not matter to Piston management. Playing KCP anything more than 8 million will be just another of many dumb ass decisions.

Congratulations to Celtic players for never giving up and not allowing Cleveland to bully you. The good guys won even though Kevin Love shot the lights out again and Irving was spectacular. Hard work and playing with HEART can work wonders. Those two ingredients are missing from this Piston team. Spending more money when coach designated key players show very little heart or hard work will make the owner look like a fool.

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Who will Boston deal with for the number one pick?

Post  cool breeze on Sun May 21, 2017 11:36 pm

My dream that possibly could have happened before the trade deadline was of course trading Drummond to Boston in a deal that would have included that coveted pick. Big mistake if Detroit rejected the offer. Now it seems everyone is trying to figure out which team will get lucky. George wants to play for the Lakers so it seems that Indiana is out of luck. Chicago wants that pick real bad but Jimmy Butler might not be enough. Gordon H. would love to play for his old coach Brad Stevens but it is doubtful that Utah would want to give him up. The latest rumor seems to involve one of my favorite NBA players, Anthony Davis. What I didn't know is that Davis is only 24 years old. Imagine that Piston fans. There goes that theory that all we need to do is wait until Andre Drummond grows up mentally. No Davis is light years ahead of Drummond and always makes a complete fool of him every damn game. Does Andre want to hide in a dark corner whenever he has to play against Davis? Inside-outside whatever he picks, Davis scores at will against Drummond. But should we worry about the Detroit Piston defense? Not according to the stat guys who love to muddy the water so nobody will remember what actually happened in the actual games.

Adding Anthony Davis to that Celtic team will make Cleveland go out and find another superstar to play next to Labron. The Celtics have a short window to win it all. New Orleans is going nowhere any time soon like our Pistons, so maybe they will be willing to part with their All Star big man who does everything exceptionally well. I hope this happens just to make it harder for Cleveland to dominate.

Meanwhile Detroit fans will continue to watch the same crew with a little tweaking of course involving adding another $20 plus million dollar salary. How exciting! Great job Piston management.

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A Piece or Two

Post  BallinD on Sun May 21, 2017 11:18 pm

That should be enough to get Porzingis or other similar stars soon to be available in this invaluable offseason when so many pieces will be in play. Drummond and a pick or a piece, KCP? Ellensen. We must not be desparate and we must make the salaries work.

I would do that for a young star in the mold of long, lean, can shoot and truly play inside-out. If we can get KP or George, or Butler, or Isaiah Thomas, or Griffin we will actually have a star to build a core around. We can then build a core and by the time Lebron is done, we will be positioning ourselves to compete with a new core. We currently do not have one.
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Re: FORUM

Post  cool breeze on Sun May 21, 2017 4:54 pm

Oracle wrote:@Don - There's an old saying, "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and to remove all doubt.".

The corollary here is that it's better to be a minor loser than to tank Hinkie style and be exposed as a total loser.

Ok, the analogy isn't all that great, LOL, but you get the point.

Don, when did this level of thinking EVER deliver on single championship in the last 20 years? The days when this made a lick of sense are gone, nobody can win that way! BTW, this level of tanking is doing Philly a hell of a lot of good Smile 

Drummond: I'm willing to go one more year with this team as it is with some tweaks internally and externally. I don't mind if we trade anybody on the team if it improves us, but one idea that was floated in the press, while a long shot, I'd jump all over in a NY minute(pun intended).

Porzingis for Drummond would be a GREAT trade for us and I wouldn't throw in our current first round pick as the article has, just a straight up trade since they're hating on Kristaps right now.

Tanking or blowing up what doesn't work is a no brainer for me. I actually watched the dysfunction very closely as my buddies who have all dropped out of Piston basketball watching. It is not difficult to see with your own eyes that several highly paid Piston players are not keepers. Once you play with no passion you have lost most most people who love the game of basketball. Clouding the issue by talking it up relating to moving players down the road is just a cop out and should only be used by the management team that is trying to cover up their mistakes. If Stan Van Gundy would just come clean and tell the fans he made some big mistakes by signing Drummond, Over paying Jackson, and even thinking about signing Pope to a long term contract, I would respect Stan a lot more. Fans are just gullible as hell. Right now there is some sucker who would consider taking on Drummond's contract. His misleading stats might fool some GM but it won't happen if the Pistons start another season with him. The burden with the payroll is significant. There can be no surprise young star player coming to the Pistons in the future if Detroit is paying Jackson, Drummond and Pope money that should only go to a high caliber proven player. Jackson, Drummond and Pope do not scare any team in the NBA. Instead all NBA teams look forward to playing against those three players. All three are dysfunctional in several categories and they just do not click with each other. Any new players who play the right way with high energy will be bitter in a matter of a few weeks if they get stuck playing with those players.

Pope has not shown anything special at all and instead has revealed several key weaknesses that will prevent him from becoming a consistent offensive threat. His defense is way over rated as he proved with his match ups with top tier guards this past season. If he was going to show that he was a first class player who can deliver in a playoff situation than he would have done that this season because this is his money season. Why would anyone expect next season will be more productive than his money season??? But all I hear is that it is automatic that Pope will get a 5 year deal for over 100-115 million for 5 years. You have to be a complete idiot to do that in my opinion. Why not just let him go and play another young guy for two or more years? What do the Pistons gain by signing him? We have all seen how he plays and it is clear that he will never be a high IQ winning type player unless management trades both Jackson and Drummond. Still Pope has not earned that kind of money. His ball handling for a 2 guard is below standard. His court vision is below standard. KCP is not a good passer. He is not a good shot creator. The worst part is that Pope does not play all out for an entire game. He plays hard at his own selected moments. Bot this is the most important thing that bugs me. Nobody in Piston management has ever identified why they MUST SIGN POPE. WHY? Please provide the details that warrant handing out this big contract and thus paralyzing the team even further. It is as if they might lose Labron James. If a healthy Bullock had been pampered as much by giving him the most minutes of any player for several seasons I think that Bullock, Johnson, or Hilliard would be just as good as KCP. He has not had to have his confidence shaken at all by any coach though out his time as a Piston. Nothing to worry about relating to being on the court. Meanwhile, every other young player has been tortured mentally by never feeling like their coach has their back. They can never feel confident of their position on the team from game to game. Being that Pope has had the full blessing of his coaches for a long time, I would expect that he would stand out every game as a real hard nosed player. That hasn't happened. He happened with Isiah Thomas and Joe Dumars. It happens on other NBA teams. KCP is not Leonard. But he will get the kind of money that Leonard gets. That is why other NBA players laugh at Piston management and get a little pissed knowing that guys like Pope, Drummond and Jackson are not in their league.

Sign and trade with Pope is OK if we get something great. If we get rid of Drummond and Jackson for draft picks and expiring contracts, the Pistons have a future. This is not the old way Oracle. All of the smart GMs are trying to get the top college players out of the draft knowing that their vet players cannot compete with the top 4 NBA teams currently playing. How did Detroit get Isiah Thomas? He was the 2nd overall pick. There is your proof. You cannot sign 2nd rate players like Leuer while paying dead weight players like Drummond, Jackson and now Pope and expect to win. You can't sign players like Smith and expect to win in the playoffs. Call me stupid but you will be crying the blues once we get into the months of January, Feb. and March again. That is when our losers play a little softer and think that nobody is watching. I sure am not going to waste any more of my time watching Detroit's Big Three. What more is there to see? The Big Three suck and I feel sorry for the players who are stuck playing with them.

Imagine how cocky KCP will be next fall as he takes home those big checks. Will he ignore his coach like Andre did this past season? Stan will be puzzled regarding the horrible team chemistry and the 3 point shots won't be falling like he thought. Then the trade deadline will approach and Piston management will once again say everyone is available for trade consideration but the deal must be really good. Then they will make up stories about all the calls they got but nothing was good enough for Stan's players. His guys are just having more bad luck. Then Detroit will get the 12th spot again in the draft and no 2nd round pick. Management will still have no takers for the Big Three from their secret calls made with every NBA team. Please take Andre, Reggie or KCP we will throw in a lot of money. PLEASE!! So again the spin stories will start that this team has taken longer than expected to gel but don't worry we will do some tweaking and keep this great core and will win big next season. After all Andre Drummond was unable to play for 3 months because of a injured left ear lobe. He did come back in April to finish the season weighing in at 310 pounds. Pope will have filled out his uniform in the belly area as well. Jackson will still be having breathing issues but the knee worked great. Meanwhile teams that continue to beat Detroit will be tanking for one more season to snag a top draft pick. Then three years from that time, Labron will announce his retirement. This will be the time when the Pistons will do a Stuckey type thing and thinking that all NBA teams are secretly talking to Andre, will offer him another sweet contract and bid against themselves. Anybody who has watched the Detroit Pistons play basketball against New Orleans, New York Knicks, Miami and a host of other bad tanking teams and suffered though watching those games where our team at full strength lost should see through the bull crap. The only way any self respecting coach could show up to coach that group would have to for the money because it can't be fun to be around players who do not improve and do not give an honest effort. But smoke and mirrors can work on some fans so opening night next fall will feature some pretty women dancing much better than Andre Drummond dances in the circle before the game starts. Imagine Bill Russell dancing in the circle and the coming out and playing with his arms below his waist. YEE HAW.

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H & D

Post  lemonpen on Sun May 21, 2017 12:57 pm

Oracle wrote:@Don - There's an old saying, "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and to remove all doubt.".

The corollary here is that it's better to be a minor loser than to tank Hinkie style and be exposed as a total loser.

Ok, the analogy isn't all that great, LOL, but you get the point.

Don, when did this level of thinking EVER deliver on single championship in the last 20 years? The days when this made a lick of sense are gone, nobody can win that way! BTW, this level of tanking is doing Philly a hell of a lot of good Smile 

Drummond: I'm willing to go one more year with this team as it is with some tweaks internally and externally. I don't mind if we trade anybody on the team if it improves us, but one idea that was floated in the press, while a long shot, I'd jump all over in a NY minute(pun intended).

Porzingis for Drummond would be a GREAT trade for us and I wouldn't throw in our current first round pick as the article has, just a straight up trade since they're hating on Kristaps right now.

If (1) you believe in what KP can become and (2) you believe in the absolute need for a superstar, why hold back on how much we surrender, possibly allowing another team to enter the fray.  Statistically AD is the better player, now and each year he has been in the league, which I think is why this trade could be possible.  The kicker is AD seems statistically speaking to have plateaued while KP is rising.  In this case I would place no limits on what NYK gets in return.
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GO BLUE

Post  WTF on Sun May 21, 2017 12:43 pm

THis team is beyond just a minor tweek here and there this team needs a major overhaul within it starting core group. No more than three no less than 2 of them not just need to be remove from start bt moved in some type of trade to up grade.

I'm of the mindset to do things similar to what was done by both Trader Jack, and Joe's earlier moves in his career as Pres. I think both were more about Character abd Chemistry than they were about talent. Talent thing kinda of came later with exception of Jack in having both Zeke and Kelly early on and piecing around them.

There are some players out there damn good capable players that are caught in the wrong place at the wrong time of their careers be it some season veteran yor still struggling in a rookie contract. This my story and I'm sticking to it.

Here is another opportunity to do the right things. I'm can't let this Trey Burke Quest I'm always on die just yet. I stll think that on the right team and in the right sitaution he's a winner the kind of player we need at the PG position. But I'm also going to add a little more Michigan Flavor to the mix and say that adding anyone of his old teammates in the mix wouldn't hurt either pick one (Staukas, Robinson, Hardaway)

For the price of doing something dumb like give KCP a Max Deal I could sign probably three of the four UofM players I've mentioned. Sounds crazy perhaps but so does signing KCP to some crazy contract, so does holding on to Andre sorry ass another season.
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Hinkie & Drummond

Post  Oracle on Sun May 21, 2017 12:05 pm

@Don - There's an old saying, "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and to remove all doubt.".

The corollary here is that it's better to be a minor loser than to tank Hinkie style and be exposed as a total loser.

Ok, the analogy isn't all that great, LOL, but you get the point.

Don, when did this level of thinking EVER deliver on single championship in the last 20 years? The days when this made a lick of sense are gone, nobody can win that way! BTW, this level of tanking is doing Philly a hell of a lot of good Smile 

Drummond: I'm willing to go one more year with this team as it is with some tweaks internally and externally. I don't mind if we trade anybody on the team if it improves us, but one idea that was floated in the press, while a long shot, I'd jump all over in a NY minute(pun intended).

Porzingis for Drummond would be a GREAT trade for us and I wouldn't throw in our current first round pick as the article has, just a straight up trade since they're hating on Kristaps right now.
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Re: FORUM

Post  cool breeze on Sun May 21, 2017 11:03 am

WTF wrote:Yeah lets stop acting like Andre is some great offensive weapon and limit his post touches to none lol No lets just get rid of his useless ass at whatever cost.

We alway was seem to be dreamng up some new methods for creating these current players into something they'll never become like its something magical or can be taught.

Andre don't have what Dennis and Ben had to become the great defender they were. HEART DESIRE WILL

Dennis was just a kid happy to be on the basketball court with the players he played with and against. He was having fun while not taking his opportunities for granted. Salley was suppose to be the better player coming out of Georgia Tech but Rodman succeeded for all the above three factors HEART DESIRE WILL and then some. Dennis was RELENTLESS, ENERGETIC, STRONG

Ben was a toss in on a sign and trade deal. Another player just barely in the league trying to prove he belonged in the league and make a name for himself. HEART DESIRE WILL RELENTLESS, ENERGETIC, STRONG needing to prove he belonged in the NBA and that he could make an impact.

Not only did both Big Ben and Worm posesed all the above charactures they had a plan, they played for something, they wanted something and they needed something. Those somethings were to be the best and NBA Titles they wanted to win at any and all cost. They played for the players next to them , they played for the City of Detroit, they played for the fans the 65,000 that watch them battle the Celtics at the Silverdome, and soldout the Palace every home game.

Keep in mind people both Dennis and Ben were born with these traits, they both had foundations on and off the court that put them on a path to succeed. They earned everything they've gotten their entire careers nothing was ever gifted to them, nothing was ever promised to them. Nobody talked about their potential they seized the moment, put in the hard work year round on and off the court.

Now we are to assume that Andre will magically find all the things that Dennis and Ben have and he'll become a defensive demon all of a sudden. Please people stop the dreaming not only do I say this about Andre sorry ass I can say this about the majority of the NBA players they don't have it (what Dennis and Ben had)

SVG tagged him Franchise when he had'nt earned it, paying him 26 Mil a season when he had'nt earned it, press clippings and hype he doesn't deserve and now the team is stuck with a turd they can't get rid of. Everybody has lowered the bar on these players and made excuses for them it's a joke and players let Andre are what we're getting now.

I want to see one interveiw where a reporter ask him what his goals are? how do you plan to make it happen? Does losing hurts and what are you going to do about it? Can you lead this team? If these questions were good enough for Zeke, Hill, and Chauncey these are the same questions Andre should be answering, Win Lose or Draw the Franchise player gets all the questions and were held accountable for not leading the team to victory.

TRADE THIS TURD

Now you are on the right track WTF and you have identified the key traits Wallace and Worm had from the first time their feet touched the hardwood. Andre did have a a recent interview with the press and advised that the players just need some "rest" and brotherhood get togethers over the summer. What did we know the moment that Zeke was drafted? Yes we had struck GOLD. Everyone knew Thomas was MVP of NCAA tournament and his outstanding games playing for Indiana in the Big 10 games. Then boom he was the same guy once he put on a Piston uniform. Zeke was the leader from day one. How about Tim Duncan? What kind of player was he in college and in his first few seasons as a pro. Did he play defense with his arms below his waist? Did anyone have to tell Duncan to box out his man on the boards? Did Tim fail to help his teammates and block shots on defense? It is very clear to me that Andre Drummond has never modeled himself after any successful big man that came before him. His desire is very weak. It is unfortunate that he doesn't have the right mindset but why should we feel sorry for him. No fan really hates a player who shows no heart when playing basketball. They just don't enjoy watching them fake it. The disturbing thing for me is how Piston management with the head coach being around Drummond for practices and all the games still pretending that all is well with the Piston players and Andre Drummond. Neither Mr. Gores or Mr. Van Gundy will admit that they made a huge blunder by signing Andre Drummond. He is still their centerpiece.

The right way to go is hire Sam Hinkie if possible or go in the same direction that Hinkie would take the Piston franchise if he could be hired away from Philly. I read an article yesterday about what Luke Walton is trying to do in LA. He knows that you have to suffer through a few seasons to acquire the right foundation to compete for a championship. We have watched the Pistons flounder for many seasons knowing that the superstar talent was just not there. Not one player that has played for years now could be considered a centerpiece. You don't get those players if you are not drafting high up in the lottery for a few years in today's game. Every team has done it that was in the same position as the Pistons since Dumars traded Billups. The owner has gone in the wrong direction with SVG. He is not a guy who is patient enough to make it through the tough seasons. I thought he could do it and would do it. SVG was known as a good teacher in his earlier days as a coach. Now he wants to coach in big time games in the playoffs without the suffering it takes to get there. To me it was inexcusable to not bust up this team before the trade deadline and get some high picks in this strong draft. That was an unforgivable blunder. But the owner will be content if our Pistons can somehow break even in regular season games. That will mean success and management can spin a tall story that we are close to breaking through to the top of the heap.

What this owner and Stan Van Gundy doesn't know about the Piston fan base is that they are not stupid. They think somehow they can trick fans into purchasing season tickets by moving downtown. My belief is that Piston fans would buy tickets if they knew management was finally on the right track in building a superior team through the draft. Fans would support a team that had a young Isiah Thomas playing every night. They supported a team that lost a lot when Dave Bing played. Nobody will support a team when the leaders are Greg Monroe or Andre Drummond or Brandon Jennings or Rodney Stuckey. No last season it was clear that the Pistons had horrible leadership within the players group. The franchise player danced around before the games instead of having his game face on like the players who kicked his ass so many times. When the players only team meeting was organized in an attempt to improve team chemistry by working things out by the players, Andre Drummond became a thorn in his teammates side by going to the coach and the press and telling all about how nasty some of the players were in that meeting. What a way to lead your team and that doesn't seem to bother a lot of fans. I bothers me a lot. But how ever you look at it, Andre Drummond needs to go as soon as possible. Players like Ellenson needs to start and get a lot of minutes this next season and then the Pistons need to strike gold in the draft lottery for maybe two or three years. At some point Labron will retire. Other teams are pointing to that moment. Our management group has no plan except for signing Pope to a mega contract. He is another average NBA player management is trying to build up just like they did with the Drummond situation. We can all see how the players competed against other NBA starters. We are not fools.

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FYI

Post  lemonpen on Sat May 20, 2017 10:49 pm

As long as Bron Bron is playing for the Cavs, no one else in the East is any better than anyone else.

The situation is sorta like when MJ was ruling the roost. The only hope is if for whatever reason, James can't play, like when Jordan took a 2 year vacation with the Barons. Then, the best prepared team will have an opportunity.

History is slowly but surely proving there is no difference between the Celtics and Us. They're playing more games but aren't an inch closer to a Ship.
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Having Something To Play For

Post  WTF on Sat May 20, 2017 3:19 pm

Yeah lets stop acting like Andre is some great offensive weapon and limit his post touches to none lol No lets just get rid of his useless ass at whatever cost.

We alway was seem to be dreamng up some new methods for creating these current players into something they'll never become like its something magical or can be taught.

Andre don't have what Dennis and Ben had to become the great defender they were. HEART DESIRE WILL

Dennis was just a kid happy to be on the basketball court with the players he played with and against. He was having fun while not taking his opportunities for granted. Salley was suppose to be the better player coming out of Georgia Tech but Rodman succeeded for all the above three factors HEART DESIRE WILL and then some. Dennis was RELENTLESS, ENERGETIC, STRONG

Ben was a toss in on a sign and trade deal. Another player just barely in the league trying to prove he belonged in the league and make a name for himself. HEART DESIRE WILL RELENTLESS, ENERGETIC, STRONG needing to prove he belonged in the NBA and that he could make an impact.

Not only did both Big Ben and Worm posesed all the above charactures they had a plan, they played for something, they wanted something and they needed something. Those somethings were to be the best and NBA Titles they wanted to win at any and all cost. They played for the players next to them , they played for the City of Detroit, they played for the fans the 65,000 that watch them battle the Celtics at the Silverdome, and soldout the Palace every home game.

Keep in mind people both Dennis and Ben were born with these traits, they both had foundations on and off the court that put them on a path to succeed. They earned everything they've gotten their entire careers nothing was ever gifted to them, nothing was ever promised to them. Nobody talked about their potential they seized the moment, put in the hard work year round on and off the court.

Now we are to assume that Andre will magically find all the things that Dennis and Ben have and he'll become a defensive demon all of a sudden. Please people stop the dreaming not only do I say this about Andre sorry ass I can say this about the majority of the NBA players they don't have it (what Dennis and Ben had)

SVG tagged him Franchise when he had'nt earned it, paying him 26 Mil a season when he had'nt earned it, press clippings and hype he doesn't deserve and now the team is stuck with a turd they can't get rid of. Everybody has lowered the bar on these players and made excuses for them it's a joke and players let Andre are what we're getting now.

I want to see one interveiw where a reporter ask him what his goals are? how do you plan to make it happen? Does losing hurts and what are you going to do about it? Can you lead this team? If these questions were good enough for Zeke, Hill, and Chauncey these are the same questions Andre should be answering, Win Lose or Draw the Franchise player gets all the questions and were held accountable for not leading the team to victory.

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The player that must go is Andre Drummond and did Stan Van Gundy turn down a trade opportunity with Boston before the trade deadline???

Post  cool breeze on Fri May 19, 2017 7:03 pm

If you check out some trade rumors that occurred before the trade deadline there were several involving the Pistons and Celtics that involved Drummond. One rumor being floated around was Detroit getting Amir Johnson and Marcus Smart along with Boston's number one pick. Of course at the time Boston hadn't yet locked in that first overall pick. Now it is a reality and most likely Boston can obtain a proven All Star alpha dog player without losing Smart. So much for Piston management's ability to made good deals. We haven't had a top 5 pick since the Darko nightmare. My best guess is that Boston would like to reunite Gordon Hayward with is old college coach Brad Stevens. Boston's current centers are far more reliable than Andre Drummond. Too bad this former dream team of Horeford, Thomas and Drummond is not longer anything a Boston fans would want to dream about after Andre's performance after the deadline.

Fans want the head of Reggie Jackson. I like Reggie's contract better than Drummond. Jackson is a good 3 point shooter and when healthy did play with heart. I would keep Jackson over Drummond. But the killer for the Pistons will be signing Pope for $20-$25 mil and then come back with both Reggie and Andre. That nightmare will be the big 3 again for years to come because nobody will touch them at the next trade deadline. All three players were key players on a team that performed with horrible chemistry. Not one of the 3 players are leaders. Not one of the players could lift a team on their back and get teammates to play with more passion. The experts have Detroit signing Pope to 25 mil. The best thing Detroit could do would be to give away all three players for whatever then can get now. Then sit back and try to secure next year's top pick in the draft. And wait for the dust to settle because a lot of teams will be shelling out big money for average players. The smart GM will wait and strike when you have an advantage. There is no way in hell that this group of Piston players will ever be competitive enough to make it to a second round series in the playoffs. Waiting this summer will be like waiting too long and not making a good deal before the trade deadline. Some team with a top 5 pick might still bite on Andre Drummond's potential. Please Stan come to your senses.

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Team leader Andre Drummond's plan to build better team chemistry

Post  cool breeze on Fri May 19, 2017 6:32 pm

"No changes needed". Andre suggests that the players need to rest over the summer. Chill out Piston fans the team leader has spoken. No Oracle it is not necessary for Andre Drummond to figure out how so many opponent coaches and players made a fool out of him when he was on defense. Who remembers that anyway? Chill Man. We players need to do more stuff off the court. Maybe now that the team will be playing in Detroit next season Harris might fly in for a picnic at Bell Isle. We players will talk about what we will do next year.

That is true leadership Piston fans. There is no need to lose about 20 pounds and get in supreme physical shape like other alpha dog players will be doing in the off season. Labron will be playing the last game of the year but will he be resting? How about any of the modern day stars? Do any of them just sit around and talk about what they would like to do next year? Andre can't react quickly enough on the court on defense so he cannot even contemplate blocking shots or anticipating a driver so he can set up and take a charge. How many charges did our big man take this past season? Did Stan Van Gundy log that stat?

My initial reaction to the interview documented on the right of the forum is Oh no please do not infect the new draft pick whoever he might be. Andre will be teaching the ropes to the new players. He will sit them around the camp fire and what will he say? REST like me as much as you can before that damn training camp starts. Eat as much as you want and drink a lot of those power drinks. Here have one and don't worry about your weight. Stan Van Gundy will be having some big feed bags for us. He and I are real close. We eat the same things too. That damn Harris won't come. Johnson is a party pooper too. He will be in California playing in those summer leagues again. Harris is off the grit eating health food and working out way too hard. My butt buddies who will be playing point guard will not pass the ball to anybody who fails to chill out with me this summer? We all need more rest. How can I talk about our team chemistry if everyone is not here listening to me? I am the team leader. If any player gives me any lip I will go straight to coach Van Gundy. The first get together turns sour when the only attendee who happens to be the new draft pick leaves early. Andre calls SVG who then invokes Rule Number 2 making it mandatory for all players to go to any scheduled meeting at Andre Drummond's house this summer. Attend the party or you will be sitting on the bench. Stan will be forced to threaten Andre's teammates. He can't afford to upset his franchise player. The franchise player might play the entire season starting next fall with his arms dangling below his waist on defense all the time instead most of the time. There are some other big decisions that management will be making. NBA basketball is very complex.

Meanwhile Danny Ainge will be contemplating if he will keep the overall first pick in the draft or make a trade for a All Star Alpha dog. No Boston player will tell the press that they need to rest during the off season and meet a lot to create better team chemistry. You have to walk the walk before you have skull sessions with your teammates about chemistry.

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No easy way forward

Post  Sparma on Fri May 19, 2017 4:33 pm

Thanks for posting the latter part of that great article, Oracle. That does shed a lot of light! They made a significant leap the season before last, but it's going to be really difficult to jump ahead now. Still room for incremental progress though.

Oracle wrote:However, it also shines a light on short sighted management decisions in building the team, and the over reliance on the CAP rising, it didn't rise as much as expected, and SVG/Bower got caught with their pants down!
http://www.detroitbadboys.com/2017/5/19/15217588/basketball-and-balance-sheets-part-i-staying-the-course-detroit-pistons-nba-offseason wrote:You know what WOULD make an immediate impact on this roster? Andre Drummond devoting this offseason to becoming an impact player defensively. That, unsurprisingly, solves a lot of this team’s on-the-court issues. The Pistons were already an above-average defensive team last year nearly solely because they made teams execute in the half-court a lot (by getting back in transition and rarely turning the ball over). What kind of team could the Pistons be if teams had more difficulty executing because Andre displayed a better understanding of pick-and-roll coverage, paired with an increased effort level on that end of the floor?

Balance Sheet



On the balance sheet, this is a $130 million-dollar team that no one would project to win 50 games in the next two years.
...Yeah, that hurt me to type just as much as it hurt you to read. Let’s move on.

It’d be fine if the Pistons were an $80 million-dollar team with that outlook, because you can make acquisitions in free agency. However, being over the luxury tax means the only way to make changes to the roster are draft picks, trades (and, believe me, we’re gonna make some fake trades later) and the taxpayer mid-level exception. Trades are the hallmark of the Stan Van Gundy and Jeff Bower era, but in the short-term I have to imagine it’s harder to be flexible with contracts you didn’t create.

There’s also a lack of flexibility in the long-term. This roster would probably be hovering near the luxury tax apron for 2 straight years, with “relief” in 2019-20 coming in the form of losing both your starting forwards, your backup point guard, and your backup center. Oh, that’s also the year you have to match whatever offers your 22-year-old No. 8 draft pick receives in restricted free agency - and the alternative is losing all the small forwards on your roster.

Crazily, there’s no singular bad deal that’s weighing down the cap, no Timofey Mozgov or Joakim Noah contract drowning this team. Reggie was worth $14-17 million in 2015. KCP is worth $25 million in 2017. Tobias’ declining year-to-year deal still gets better by the day. Say what you want about Andre, but someone would’ve paid him $25 million if we hadn’t. The Marcus Morris contract is the glue that holds the rest of the roster together. Honestly, the “worst” deal on the roster might be Jon Leuer’s $10 million per year deal, and that’s only if he continues to be the player he was the second half of the season.

Unfortunately, no singular pain point means no magic tonic. Trading Reggie helps, but it doesn’t stop Josh Smith making more than Marcus Morris until 2018, or change what it’ll cost to retain Stanley Johnson if he improves. To get back to a point of true “flexibility,” you’d have to trade Reggie and Andre, or Reggie and Tobias, or trade Reggie and not re-sign KCP. And the guys you’d have to trade any of those players FOR would have to either be large expiring contracts, large contracts with buyout options, or rookie-scale guys who need to be paid soonish, otherwise you’re right back at your inflexible start.
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Cahones

Post  BallinD on Fri May 19, 2017 2:51 pm

Oracle wrote:However, it also shines a light on short sighted management decisions in building the team, and the over reliance on the CAP rising, it didn't rise as much as expected, and SVG/Bower got caught with their pants down!

Get Dre to focus on becoming Deandre Jordan 2.0, Ben Wallace 2.0 rather than Hakeem Olaujuwan 2.0. To me that would be leadership on his part and cahones on SVG's part. Get Donovan Mitchell or Luke Kennard in here to help unbog the offense. Play Boban and Ish with Tobias and KCP and Ellensen and keep it moving.

If Dre would focus on D, that would solve so many of our problems. I and others here have pointed out that posting him up has outcomes on par or less than with sending him to the FT line.

I still want to swing for the fences and trade Dre and Weggie because after four years in the league, it does not seem Dre has it. He didn't have it in college either. We need a star (defensive or offensive or all around game). But if, as it appears, we will not rise above mediocrity in this SVG Iteration, I would rather get younger and position ourself for the next guy to come in here with bright ideas. Because unless SVG changes his evil ways, he will be out the door at the end of the season.
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This article shines a LOT of light on our situation, here's a piece...

Post  Oracle on Fri May 19, 2017 2:33 pm

However, it also shines a light on short sighted management decisions in building the team, and the over reliance on the CAP rising, it didn't rise as much as expected, and SVG/Bower got caught with their pants down!
http://www.detroitbadboys.com/2017/5/19/15217588/basketball-and-balance-sheets-part-i-staying-the-course-detroit-pistons-nba-offseason wrote:You know what WOULD make an immediate impact on this roster? Andre Drummond devoting this offseason to becoming an impact player defensively. That, unsurprisingly, solves a lot of this team’s on-the-court issues. The Pistons were already an above-average defensive team last year nearly solely because they made teams execute in the half-court a lot (by getting back in transition and rarely turning the ball over). What kind of team could the Pistons be if teams had more difficulty executing because Andre displayed a better understanding of pick-and-roll coverage, paired with an increased effort level on that end of the floor?

Balance Sheet


On the balance sheet, this is a $130 million-dollar team that no one would project to win 50 games in the next two years.
...Yeah, that hurt me to type just as much as it hurt you to read. Let’s move on.

It’d be fine if the Pistons were an $80 million-dollar team with that outlook, because you can make acquisitions in free agency. However, being over the luxury tax means the only way to make changes to the roster are draft picks, trades (and, believe me, we’re gonna make some fake trades later) and the taxpayer mid-level exception. Trades are the hallmark of the Stan Van Gundy and Jeff Bower era, but in the short-term I have to imagine it’s harder to be flexible with contracts you didn’t create.

There’s also a lack of flexibility in the long-term. This roster would probably be hovering near the luxury tax apron for 2 straight years, with “relief” in 2019-20 coming in the form of losing both your starting forwards, your backup point guard, and your backup center. Oh, that’s also the year you have to match whatever offers your 22-year-old No. 8 draft pick receives in restricted free agency - and the alternative is losing all the small forwards on your roster.

Crazily, there’s no singular bad deal that’s weighing down the cap, no Timofey Mozgov or Joakim Noah contract drowning this team. Reggie was worth $14-17 million in 2015. KCP is worth $25 million in 2017. Tobias’ declining year-to-year deal still gets better by the day. Say what you want about Andre, but someone would’ve paid him $25 million if we hadn’t. The Marcus Morris contract is the glue that holds the rest of the roster together. Honestly, the “worst” deal on the roster might be Jon Leuer’s $10 million per year deal, and that’s only if he continues to be the player he was the second half of the season.

Unfortunately, no singular pain point means no magic tonic. Trading Reggie helps, but it doesn’t stop Josh Smith making more than Marcus Morris until 2018, or change what it’ll cost to retain Stanley Johnson if he improves. To get back to a point of true “flexibility,” you’d have to trade Reggie and Andre, or Reggie and Tobias, or trade Reggie and not re-sign KCP. And the guys you’d have to trade any of those players FOR would have to either be large expiring contracts, large contracts with buyout options, or rookie-scale guys who need to be paid soonish, otherwise you’re right back at your inflexible start.
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I'm in total agreement with this article

Post  Oracle on Fri May 19, 2017 2:03 pm

The Repurposing of Andre Drummond

http://pistonpowered.com/2017/04/27/repurposing-andre-drummond-detroit-pistons/ wrote:Drummond’s production in the post is dreadful, and he has virtually no offensive game outside of five feet. Without scoring ability, it’s worth asking if Drummond’s role in the offense should be repurposed.

Could Andre Drummond mold himself in the image of two of the Detroit Pistons franchise’s most beloved players, Dennis Rodman and Ben Wallace? Requiring him to mimic their defensive intensity might be too much to ask, but relying on his incredible rebounding and uncanny eye for steals could be enough to build around.

By limiting his post touches to none and effectively removing him from the offense aside from pick and roll and rim running, the offense would certainly have been much more efficient this year. That was probably on the coaches to figure out.

If his screens are solid, his positioning in the offense is correct and he still chases boards with the same ferocity there should be no reason he can’t still be the centerpiece of this young team. No more post touches. No more offensive sets for him. Zero plays except pick and roll where he is the scoring option. He’s a five-year pro. He will likely never be a skilled scorer.
Yes, keep him focused on defense, limit his post touches to ZERO, ZIP, NADA, only the stuff he gained attention for, dunks off of lobs and such, and we have a much more effective center! Yeah he's going to complain at first, but if he doesn't like it, he can ask for a trade... Bu Bye Mofo!
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DX, I LOVE this lineup... BUT

Post  Oracle on Fri May 19, 2017 2:01 pm

While I believe that SVG will be better with the starters and youngsters, politics will surely keep Morris & Jackson as starters. I don't like it, and I don't believe it's best for the team, but I also don't get a vote  Sad
deusXango wrote:If the boss had balls, instead of bluster, he'd act like the boss and get this team in order. With the personnel this team has, it's prudent to start building from the ground up; assemble the strongest bench possible and then start looking at the holes in the starting lineup...take the chances a lottery team with a 37-45 record has license to do. Allow me to throw out a suggestion for SVG and the forum to consider:
Bench:
C- Boban Post intimidator and highly productive with time on the floor
PF-Morris Mid to long range scorer who's a gritty defender and experienced bench player (before coming to Detroit)
SF-Johnson Bulldog perimeter defender who's smart and unselfish; will steadily improve
SG-Bullock Above average 3 and D player who's bound to shake the injury bug; potentially the best 3 pt. shooter
PG-Jackson "It's not important who starts, but who finishes games." Throw contract considerations out the window and we have possibly the best 6th man in the league and at the most important position...helluva scorer and experienced bench player (before coming to Detroit!)

Starters:
C- Drummond Whatever comes off the glass belongs to him...improved FT's will be welcomed as will defense
PF-Ellenson There's no player we can get at #12 that's better prepared to step in and start...it's about time
SF-Harris Our most talented mid range scorer...aggressive, aggressive, aggressive, get aggressive!!
SG-KCP We got a glimpse of what he can be paired with an up-tempo PG and the defense is superb...growing
PG-Smith Tone and pace setter; who says the starting PG has to be the highest paid for the team to win? Our shoes are on the wrong foot when Ish plays behind Reggie...Reggie's the 6th man and Ish starts until some one better comes along

I don't know who'll be our pick this year, only that it'll probably be a teenager who will need seasoning, but if whoever it is shows to be capable of replacing someone in the rotation, do it! This horse sh!t about nitpicking our players has to stop...that ain't coaching or developing players.
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My rant for today

Post  deusXango on Fri May 19, 2017 11:56 am

If the boss had balls, instead of bluster, he'd act like the boss and get this team in order. With the personnel this team has, it's prudent to start building from the ground up; assemble the strongest bench possible and then start looking at the holes in the starting lineup...take the chances a lottery team with a 37-45 record has license to do. Allow me to throw out a suggestion for SVG and the forum to consider:
Bench:
C- Boban Post intimidator and highly productive with time on the floor
PF-Morris Mid to long range scorer who's a gritty defender and experienced bench player (before coming to Detroit)
SF-Johnson Bulldog perimeter defender who's smart and unselfish; will steadily improve
SG-Bullock Above average 3 and D player who's bound to shake the injury bug; potentially the best 3 pt. shooter
PG-Jackson "It's not important who starts, but who finishes games." Throw contract considerations out the window and we have possibly the best 6th man in the league and at the most important position...helluva scorer and experienced bench player (before coming to Detroit!)

Starters:
C- Drummond Whatever comes off the glass belongs to him...improved FT's will be welcomed as will defense
PF-Ellenson There's no player we can get at #12 that's better prepared to step in and start...it's about time
SF-Harris Our most talented mid range scorer...aggressive, aggressive, aggressive, get aggressive!!
SG-KCP We got a glimpse of what he can be paired with an up-tempo PG and the defense is superb...growing
PG-Smith Tone and pace setter; who says the starting PG has to be the highest paid for the team to win? Our shoes are on the wrong foot when Ish plays behind Reggie...Reggie's the 6th man and Ish starts until some one better comes along

I don't know who'll be our pick this year, only that it'll probably be a teenager who will need seasoning, but if whoever it is shows to be capable of replacing someone in the rotation, do it! This horse sh!t about nitpicking our players has to stop...that ain't coaching or developing players.
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Re: FORUM

Post  cool breeze on Fri May 19, 2017 11:36 am

BallinD wrote:The ECF is showing us and other teams the upside of our very own Stanimal in Jae Crowder.  Plays D with a chip on his shoulder, at 6'6" 235, roughly the same physical and attitudinal dimensions.  He lately has been hitting his threes and so therefore is showing another level of true value.  We can hope!!  Crowder may be a better comp than Artest, but time will tell.

I do believe SJ can be more of a playmaker once he refines his handles.  He has shown he can hit the occasional three and since teams will be sagging off him and daring him to shoot, he's got to learn to make them pay.

I know, I have hated on the kid for his inability to make a damn layup in year's past, but he's a young chip, so there is that.

Ballin the question remains if Stan Van Gundy will decide to make Johnson more of a core player or a fringe player. Johnson gets few offensive touches and no plays in SVG's offense that is based on the Tim Hardaway ball dominate point guards who play favorites and seldom use both sides of the court. Johnson needs to have a coach where he is more free to move without the basketball setting screens in the paint to free up teammates and get touches himself. This has not happened for him. Johnson/Bullock/Hilliard are players who are TOLD to stand in the baseline corner. To me this is like sitting on the bench. You seldom get better. So much for player development on Stan Van Gundy's team. I think KCP was also excluded from Stan's offense until this last season as well. Somehow the head coach has no problem allowing his point guards to go off script relating to seldom running plays the team practices. This causes confusion and bad team chemistry. Yet the head coach defers to his assistant who played the same way during his career. Hardaway was a much better player in his day but his teams were also dysfunctional as well.

The head coach allows this dysfunction but punishes the selected fringe players who have no role in Stan and Tim's offense. This is my beef. If you are a coach and decide to have special rules for the point guard giving them all the latitude they desire to show off then those point guards should reward the coach by playing good defense. However, he head coach gives his point guards a pass in this area as well. One team ( Detroit Pistons) with three different rules for the players. The point guards have their special rules. The starting center has his rules where he can play with no rules like the point guards and also gets a free pass on defense. Then comes the rest of the clumps where rules are strictly enforced with the exception of Morris and Leuer. If you are a young chump always traveling in third class and highly supervised and judged, then of course you become bitter and hate playing with the the guys who play by their own rules with the blessing of the head coach and assistant coach. Could that possibly create incredibly bad team chemistry? No matter how many turnovers the starting center or the two designated point guards make, they still get their minutes when the coach had a guy named Beno who made few mistakes and shot the 3 point shot better then the two guys who were giving special rules. Never did Beno see the floor when the ( point guards) were at their worst. They never received a spanking like Stanley Johnson. The coaching staff should have been fired for creating these rules the players have to live by. But the owner is watching the Clippers and Lakers. Who cares? But my guess is that the players living in 3rd class in the pecking order want out of this insanity. Do they really want to return to training camp knowing the Stan Van Gundy rules of conduct? It was very clear to me that both Jackson and Smith would be dribbling the basketball around and look at an unguarded Piston player and then look the other way passing the ball to Drummond, Morris, Leuer, or Harris 90% of the time. Only this past season did KCP get touches. When did the coach say hey why didn't you pass the ball to the open player Mr. Point Guard? Usually when the Pistons were down by 20 Johnson would have a bone thrown his way. Stanley Johnson has never ever in his life played on a team like this class orientated team. Stan created the pecking order that determines who will be successful and who won't. That is why I suggested that being this is the the way things will be, SVG should get it over with and trade Stanley Johnson. Get a player who will submit to being a rotation fringe player who is just in it for the money and content to keep his mouth shut and settle for not be considered important.

I suspect this will be the same way Ellenson will be handled this coming season too. Yet I see that Brad Stevens, Jason Kidd, and Pop make their young guys equal partners of happenings on the basketball court when they get to play. Stan's pecking order system failed this past season and it will continue to fail because he didn't identify why his team had such bad team chemistry. The designated Third Class fringe players have no energy because the coach was AWOL and allowed his 1ST Class designated players to run the team. Those players know that he couldn't give a crap about their futures. And the 1st class kiss ass players ran the team like selfish children. And we were dumb enough to spent time watching this nonsense. I say no more Piston fans. We want something different or we should walk away from the Detroit Pistons until the owner decides to make a change.

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I see you working

Post  deusXango on Fri May 19, 2017 11:12 am

BallinD wrote:The ECF is showing us and other teams the upside of our very own Stanimal in Jae Crowder.  Plays D with a chip on his shoulder, at 6'6" 235, roughly the same physical and attitudinal dimensions.  He lately has been hitting his threes and so therefore is showing another level of true value.  We can hope!!  Crowder may be a better comp than Artest, but time will tell.

I do believe SJ can be more of a playmaker once he refines his handles.  He has shown he can hit the occasional three and since teams will be sagging off him and daring him to shoot, he's got to learn to make them pay.

I know, I have hated on the kid for his inability to make a damn layup in year's past, but he's a young chip, so there is that.
Damn good observation BallinD; I totally forgot that one of my main reasons for not watching Crowder develop was his 6' 6" size at SF, in a league where the average SG is 6' 6", boy was I wrong! Stanley Johnson showed up at SVG's doorstep with far greater credentials than Crowder ever had, due to his grit, determination, I.Q., winning pedigree, and physical attributes, but the first thing SVG wanted to get straight was his ugly, flat, jump shot; like all SJ needed was some arch on the ball and he would've been considered for ROY! Such is the development of rookies in SVG's camp. I ain't even going to get into Henry Ellenson right now or the #12 pick this year, whoever that turns out to be, because he's certain to have been a flawed player in retrospect next year.

Stanley Johnson is a heady defender, on a team that's not overstocked with high I.Q.'s or bulldog defenders, so why not get some proper coaching in here for this young man and unleash him?
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Paul Pierce calls for Celtics to trade No. 1 draft pick... And he's right!

Post  Oracle on Fri May 19, 2017 10:01 am

http://www.freep.com/story/sports/nba/2017/05/18/paul-pierce-boston-celtics-trade-no-1-draft-pick/101822402/ wrote:"You trade this pick, because he cannot help the Celtics get over the top," Pierce said while making an appearance on ESPN's The Jump on Wednesday. "The window is now. ... You're a 50-win team, you're the No. 1 seed. You have to build on this momentum. If you can acquire a Paul George, a Jimmy Butler or a Gordon (Hayward) from Utah, you have to do it."
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Off Topic - ESPN: Lions have fourth best QB situation in NFL

Post  Oracle on Thu May 18, 2017 11:12 pm

http://www.mlive.com/lions/index.ssf/2017/05/espn_lions_have_fourth_best_qb.html wrote:
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