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Oracle

Post  WTF on Fri Jun 24, 2016 2:55 pm

Oracle wrote:You guys need to chill on KCP & Drummond.

You remind me of people that have won, but for whatever reason can't see it.

Drummond was a PROJECT, you should accept that and deal with it! He appeared to be ahead of schedule and you guys let it go to your head and then started putting expectations on him that aren't going to happen as soon as you want. Big men take longer... period!

KCP is a player that has gotten visibly better each year, we wouldn't have been in the playoffs without him! He showed up big in the playoffs... always a good sign.

But the biggest knock on the complaints is that you want to call a game just because you saw a cloud in the sky, at least wait until it rains, or in this case, until the rookie contract is over.

KCP has no value now, he's in the last year of his contract, any team runs a lot of risk if they trade for him unless he wants to go there and they're promising something.

The smarter move is to sign and trade him, then we get max value out of the trade.

IMO, trading KCP is a danger sign for this team unless everyone can buy into why it makes sense. If not, you sorely under estimate the bond between this core, and the issues this would cause. Let alone the chemistry disruption problems.

BTW, everybody wants to win the finals tomorrow, but for us it isn't going to happen. Don't lose focus, we need to get better from within and by addition. You shouldn't change too many things at once, and it's important to see what internal improvement buys you before you do rash things. We have the luxury of knowing we have 2-3 years before we're on top, let's use it to get better.

I agree and I don't Oracle sure Andre was a hard project to pass on and he has surpassed that label of just being a project. The expectation grew with the proclamation by many including SVG that he was Franchise Player Tag worthy and they needed to build around him. All criticism of Andre game is actually fair game now and he needs to step up. It's not like we're moaning about him developing a post game and Dream like foot work, just make your freaking FT's and be more of a force and impact defensively. These are issues about Andre game that may never get better over any amount of time. Still I haven't suggested we trade Andre simply put someone better before him or behind on the bench.

As for KCP FIT FIT FIT and FIT again is going to be a major issue with me when it comes to this guy. He'll never be a shooter he will always be a scorer. I don't knock KCP for his progression or his growth as a player I question his FIT and I could likely do the same thing with Harris and Morris as well but its more glaring and obvious at that SG position that this kid isn't the right fit.

A sign and trade is better option next season but that doesn't really say KCP isn't a valuable trade piece now. Many player get traded in the last year of a contract even a rookie one. We just seen this happen over the past 2 days.

Trading KCP isn't blowing up the core nor will it be a chemistry stopper either. You have to take risk to get better and no one looking to win the Title tomorrow but the team needs to keep pace with Boston, Indy, Orlando and stay ahead of the Buck, Wizards, and Knicks, they need to improve on that 8th seed.
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Don & Wise

Post  Oracle on Fri Jun 24, 2016 2:03 pm

You guys need to chill on KCP & Drummond.

You remind me of people that have won, but for whatever reason can't see it.

Drummond was a PROJECT, you should accept that and deal with it! He appeared to be ahead of schedule and you guys let it go to your head and then started putting expectations on him that aren't going to happen as soon as you want. Big men take longer... period!

KCP is a player that has gotten visibly better each year, we wouldn't have been in the playoffs without him! He showed up big in the playoffs... always a good sign.

But the biggest knock on the complaints is that you want to call a game just because you saw a cloud in the sky, at least wait until it rains, or in this case, until the rookie contract is over.

KCP has no value now, he's in the last year of his contract, any team runs a lot of risk if they trade for him unless he wants to go there and they're promising something.

The smarter move is to sign and trade him, then we get max value out of the trade.

IMO, trading KCP is a danger sign for this team unless everyone can buy into why it makes sense. If not, you sorely under estimate the bond between this core, and the issues this would cause. Let alone the chemistry disruption problems.

BTW, everybody wants to win the finals tomorrow, but for us it isn't going to happen. Don't lose focus, we need to get better from within and by addition. You shouldn't change too many things at once, and it's important to see what internal improvement buys you before you do rash things. We have the luxury of knowing we have 2-3 years before we're on top, let's use it to get better.
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Cool

Post  Sparma on Fri Jun 24, 2016 1:49 pm

I hear that Payton's signed with Houston.

SVG'd better have a PG plan! The only rationale(s) I can see with Dinwiddie is if they knew they were going to release him and wanted something, anything, for him and they liked the kid personally and wanted to help him land in a good spot. I guess they were convinced he wasn't a good #2 candidate. Fine. But at #3, I'm not seeing the alternatives they envisioned. John Lucas did come out of nowhere, or China actually, to be a serviceable back up, so maybe finding a #3 is easier than I think. I agree with you, Don, that Spencer looked like a promising candidate and that they gave up on him too early.

cool breeze wrote:
Sparma wrote:Doug Gottlieb had the Pistons as one of his winners, on CBSports, with Rip Hamilton as a key panelist.  He knows his stuff (even if he hasn't always been a person of the highest virtue.)

Good evening, as best as I can tell.  I'd guess Ellenson could be a solid back up within a year or two, maybe better than that in time.  Hoping they can quickly sign an undrafted PG (Payton?).  Still puzzled by the timing of the Dinwiddie trade.  Wouldn't he look pretty good as the 3rd PG right now?  Bad night for Bairstow, I'd think.   His odds of sticking around just diminished, because I think they'd still like to bring in a vet in front of him and Ellenson.  What would have been the drawback to waiting to see if you happen to be able to draft Ellenson and if you don't end up drafting a  PG at all?  Weird.  That was a minor trade, but should it really be understood primarily as a favor to Spencer?  I read that Gbinije played most of his minutes at PG, but surely he won't make much of an appearance there in the NBA.

Sparma unless Piston management has a free agent locked up or has been working on a solid trade, the Dinwiddie give away will go down as a black mark against SVG. I love Spencer's size and basketball IQ. I always felt that he would shine as time moved forward. But it was cool that you mentioned Payton. I find it hard to believe that he wasn't drafted. Watching a lot of PAC12 basketball, I can tell you that Payton is a hard nosed player just like his Dad. He was surrounded with weaker players last season and has been forgotten by a lot of GMs. I would for sure try to sign Payton. He is a superior defender and was the clutch player on his team for the past two seasons. Are you listening Stan????
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@Cool

Post  WTF on Fri Jun 24, 2016 1:03 pm

Cool I agree that we need to steer our focus around building the team around Harris, Morris and Johnson. I'm not at all sold on Reggie and I keep saying that KCP isn't the proper fit and that he holds the most trade value of any player on our roster.

I'm so torn up with Andre and at a lost with what we should really do with him moving forward. His defense and FT shooting is horrendous there are times he helps us and there are times he hurts us. I would like to keep him but I would like a better option in the starting unit. It has gotten so bad about how I should feel about him that at times I wish for Moose back.
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DANGER!!!! Is Correct

Post  WTF on Fri Jun 24, 2016 12:53 pm

Oracle wrote:The Draft:
I really like Ellison the more I look at him, but Merc is right, this is Monroe with a jump shot, but that isn't a bad thing! Monroe would have bee a great fit here if he could hit midrange shots consistently, and some 3's once in awhile! So this pick shows good promise.

The 2nd round pick is interesting, and raises some questions. Is this insurance in case they can't sign KCP? KCP is under valued here, and could look to get paid the max after his rookie deal, and who could blame him. If we hadn't drafted Stanley Johnson, I would have thought this team would fall apart losing KCP, now we'd only be shaky. There is no one on this team that can steal the ball and finish like KCP.

The other possibility may be a lack of faith in either of our existing 6'6/6'7 guys not named Stanley Johnson. This is likely more the case as one or more of them are likely to be packaged in any trades that will come up.

To solve that, enter the 2nd round pick. A bigger 6'7 wing in Michael Gbinije that may be a better 3 point shooter than KCP or Stanley Johnson, but not the athletic ability or speed of KCP. In short, I like this pick a lot.

The Dangers:
The Pacers just got real interesting! They pick up Teague and Thaddeus Young. We already had trouble with them when they had the very pedestrian George Hill, and Teague is a much more dynamic option. Young provides an upgrade to their front court, and these guys are a lot better, IMO.

Then there is Orlando, who just picked up Ibaka from OKC to make their front court look very solid. It cost them Oladipo, but it was a good move.

Next there is New York, who got Rose. In short we have competitors getting better, and while this is a good draft for us, neither of these guys are expected to impact next season very much or at all.

Conclusion: This is a very good start to the offseason, but there's still a lot more work to do with FA's and Trades!

This is that separation I was referring to with team getting better via trades and free agency. Pacer immediately got better just in adding Teagues alone then they double down and added Young. Not only did they distance themselves from us they moved closer to the Cavs.

Any move that New York makes to add either Howard or Gasol if not both clearly puts them in the playoffs depending on the health of Rose. I also thought I read somewhere Boston looking at Moose.

As I said before standing pat does not make us a better team. We seen team in one year and out of the playoffs the next year and that's not progress that's failure. I know initially I said no to Horford I might have to change my thoughts on that.
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Re: FORUM

Post  cool breeze on Fri Jun 24, 2016 11:54 am

Sparma wrote:Doug Gottlieb had the Pistons as one of his winners, on CBSports, with Rip Hamilton as a key panelist.  He knows his stuff (even if he hasn't always been a person of the highest virtue.)

Good evening, as best as I can tell.  I'd guess Ellenson could be a solid back up within a year or two, maybe better than that in time.  Hoping they can quickly sign an undrafted PG (Payton?).  Still puzzled by the timing of the Dinwiddie trade.  Wouldn't he look pretty good as the 3rd PG right now?  Bad night for Bairstow, I'd think.   His odds of sticking around just diminished, because I think they'd still like to bring in a vet in front of him and Ellenson.  What would have been the drawback to waiting to see if you happen to be able to draft Ellenson and if you don't end up drafting a  PG at all?  Weird.  That was a minor trade, but should it really be understood primarily as a favor to Spencer?  I read that Gbinije played most of his minutes at PG, but surely he won't make much of an appearance there in the NBA.

Sparma unless Piston management has a free agent locked up or has been working on a solid trade, the Dinwiddie give away will go down as a black mark against SVG. I love Spencer's size and basketball IQ. I always felt that he would shine as time moved forward. But it was cool that you mentioned Payton. I find it hard to believe that he wasn't drafted. Watching a lot of PAC12 basketball, I can tell you that Payton is a hard nosed player just like his Dad. He was surrounded with weaker players last season and has been forgotten by a lot of GMs. I would for sure try to sign Payton. He is a superior defender and was the clutch player on his team for the past two seasons. Are you listening Stan????

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Re: FORUM

Post  cool breeze on Fri Jun 24, 2016 11:43 am

Oracle wrote:The Draft:
I really like Ellison the more I look at him, but Merc is right, this is Monroe with a jump shot, but that isn't a bad thing! Monroe would have bee a great fit here if he could hit midrange shots consistently, and some 3's once in awhile! So this pick shows good promise.

The 2nd round pick is interesting, and raises some questions. Is this insurance in case they can't sign KCP? KCP is under valued here, and could look to get paid the max after his rookie deal, and who could blame him. If we hadn't drafted Stanley Johnson, I would have thought this team would fall apart losing KCP, now we'd only be shaky. There is no one on this team that can steal the ball and finish like KCP.

The other possibility may be a lack of faith in either of our existing 6'6/6'7 guys not named Stanley Johnson. This is likely more the case as one or more of them are likely to be packaged in any trades that will come up.

To solve that, enter the 2nd round pick. A bigger 6'7 wing in Michael Gbinije that may be a better 3 point shooter than KCP or Stanley Johnson, but not the athletic ability or speed of KCP. In short, I like this pick a lot.

The Dangers:
The Pacers just got real interesting! They pick up Teague and Thaddeus Young. We already had trouble with them when they had the very pedestrian George Hill, and Teague is a much more dynamic option. Young provides an upgrade to their front court, and these guys are a lot better, IMO.

Then there is Orlando, who just picked up Ibaka from OKC to make their front court look very solid. It cost them Oladipo, but it was a good move.

Next there is New York, who got Rose. In short we have competitors getting better, and while this is a good draft for us, neither of these guys are expected to impact next season very much or at all.

Conclusion: This is a very good start to the offseason, but there's still a lot more work to do with FA's and Trades!

I was thinking the same thing last night Oracle relating to Indiana, Orlando and New York being harder to beat next season. The Pistons struggled against both New York and Indiana before this happened. Now both teams really have the edge on Detroit.

Our number 1 pick selection, Ellison, should not be compared with Monroe. I agree that he does not have quick feet but we can say the same thing about Bill Laimbeer. Playing defense is all about heart and guts and of course your basketball IQ. This is where Ellison shines. He is a gamer. We don't have a faker type player like Monroe who could care less about playing the right way on defense. I cannot imagine that Ellison is the type of player who will wander out to the 3 point line and then instead of recovering to help just watches his teammate battle. That was Monroe who did the same thing in college. Ellison needs to work hard with the Piston trainers to improve his conditioning. Most big men resist hard work. If Ellison is the rare big man who wants to make the rotation in his rookie season and become a fan favorite, he is capable of doing it. Ellison has good shooting mechanics but hasn't shot the ball much in live competition from distance yet. Everything depends on how hard this man wants to work. He has the body and grit. I wish him well.

Gbinije is a mystery player for me but somehow SVG's management team must have seen something in him. He did play point guard a lot last season. Playing in a system that only plays zone defense makes for a difficult transition to the NBA. This is where Gbinije will need to prove himself if he has any chance of making the team this year or perhaps stealing some playing time.

We need a first rate point guard if the Pistons want to be among the top 8 teams again in the Eastern conference unless SVG goes to the point forward idea for the 2nd unit. It is doubtful that the Pistons have enough trade material to make that happen. Therefore, I hope we see the point forward approach and the best players make the rotation.

The Piston coaching staff is working hard with our core players this summer and I hope the players involved are serious about getting better. That is the key. Can our players come back 20% better? I like Morris, Harris and Johnson a lot. Harris is the best player on the team and has the potential to become an All Star. Those 3 players need to come back as leaders. All three have stated that their goal is to get better over this summer. I was surprised to hear Morris saying that type of thing. Very cool to hear that our players are different from the slugs we dreaded to watch in recent years. I still am not sold on KCP long term. Who could be when we recall how inconsistent he has been as the starting 2 guard. And I do not believe that he is a great defender. He is an average defender who gambles too much so far. But Pope has a lot of pressure on him next year relating to his career and next contract and he has gotten slightly better and sure has a lot of experience under his belt. But don't forget about Bullock if he is not shipped out in a trade. At some moments last season, I felt that he was a better player than KCP. Again, Reggie has to be keyed up because he has the pressure of the next contract on him as well. Our players must keep bonding together to create the best chemistry possible. This next season is going to be a dog fight.

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Good draft, but BIG dangers ahead...

Post  Oracle on Fri Jun 24, 2016 8:09 am

The Draft:
I really like Ellison the more I look at him, but Merc is right, this is Monroe with a jump shot, but that isn't a bad thing! Monroe would have bee a great fit here if he could hit midrange shots consistently, and some 3's once in awhile! So this pick shows good promise.

The 2nd round pick is interesting, and raises some questions. Is this insurance in case they can't sign KCP? KCP is under valued here, and could look to get paid the max after his rookie deal, and who could blame him. If we hadn't drafted Stanley Johnson, I would have thought this team would fall apart losing KCP, now we'd only be shaky. There is no one on this team that can steal the ball and finish like KCP.

The other possibility may be a lack of faith in either of our existing 6'6/6'7 guys not named Stanley Johnson. This is likely more the case as one or more of them are likely to be packaged in any trades that will come up.

To solve that, enter the 2nd round pick. A bigger 6'7 wing in Michael Gbinije that may be a better 3 point shooter than KCP or Stanley Johnson, but not the athletic ability or speed of KCP. In short, I like this pick a lot.

The Dangers:
The Pacers just got real interesting! They pick up Teague and Thaddeus Young. We already had trouble with them when they had the very pedestrian George Hill, and Teague is a much more dynamic option. Young provides an upgrade to their front court, and these guys are a lot better, IMO.

Then there is Orlando, who just picked up Ibaka from OKC to make their front court look very solid. It cost them Oladipo, but it was a good move.

Next there is New York, who got Rose. In short we have competitors getting better, and while this is a good draft for us, neither of these guys are expected to impact next season very much or at all.

Conclusion: This is a very good start to the offseason, but there's still a lot more work to do with FA's and Trades!
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Re: FORUM

Post  Sparma on Fri Jun 24, 2016 6:39 am

I'd heard a Troy Murphy comparison with Ellenson. That comparison may be overly favorable in that Murphy averaged a double double five seasons.

The Brian Cardinal comparison is an interesting one. I liked him too. Tough guy, hard worker, who made good contributions off the bench. Ellenson's listed at 3.5 inches taller than Cardinal and I'm guessing he'll at least put up better rebounding numbers.


Murph wrote:Disappointing.  I like taking a PF.  But he wasn't the available PF that I would have picked.  I would have gone for Deyonta Davis, Brice Johnson or Cheick Diallo in that order.  

Hope I'm wrong, but Draftnet compares Ellenson to Brian Cardinal or Brian Scalabrine.   Now don't get me wrong, I always liked Brian Cardinal, but most of Cardinal's charm was due to the fact that he was taken late in the second round, and managed to stick in the NBA for 12 years.  Cardinal was your classic over-achieving, garbage man, hustle guy.

But I was hoping for more than Brian Cardinal with our mid 1st round pick.  Oh well....


And how many 6'7 reserve shooting guards do we need?  Needless to say, taking Gbinije in the 2nd round does not bode well for Meeks, Hilliard or Bullock long term.
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Draft

Post  Murph on Fri Jun 24, 2016 5:23 am

Disappointing.  I like taking a PF.  But he wasn't the available PF that I would have picked.  I would have gone for Deyonta Davis, Brice Johnson or Cheick Diallo in that order.  

Hope I'm wrong, but Draftnet compares Ellenson to Brian Cardinal or Brian Scalabrine.   Now don't get me wrong, I always liked Brian Cardinal, but most of Cardinal's charm was due to the fact that he was taken late in the second round, and managed to stick in the NBA for 12 years.  Cardinal was your classic over-achieving, garbage man, hustle guy.

But I was hoping for more than Brian Cardinal with our mid 1st round pick.  Oh well....


And how many 6'7 reserve shooting guards do we need?  Needless to say, taking Gbinije in the 2nd round does not bode well for Meeks, Hilliard or Bullock long term.
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Post  Sparma on Fri Jun 24, 2016 1:57 am

Doug Gottlieb had the Pistons as one of his winners, on CBSports, with Rip Hamilton as a key panelist. He knows his stuff (even if he hasn't always been a person of the highest virtue.)

Good evening, as best as I can tell. I'd guess Ellenson could be a solid back up within a year or two, maybe better than that in time. Hoping they can quickly sign an undrafted PG (Payton?). Still puzzled by the timing of the Dinwiddie trade. Wouldn't he look pretty good as the 3rd PG right now? Bad night for Bairstow, I'd think. His odds of sticking around just diminished, because I think they'd still like to bring in a vet in front of him and Ellenson. What would have been the drawback to waiting to see if you happen to be able to draft Ellenson and if you don't end up drafting a PG at all? Weird. That was a minor trade, but should it really be understood primarily as a favor to Spencer? I read that Gbinije played most of his minutes at PG, but surely he won't make much of an appearance there in the NBA.
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lmao

Post  WTF on Fri Jun 24, 2016 1:35 am

merc wrote:Ellenson's future  =  Monroe with a jump shot

Not sure how I feel about that as a former Moose Hater lol
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Re: FORUM

Post  merc on Fri Jun 24, 2016 1:29 am

Ellenson's future = Monroe with a jump shot
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Defense???????

Post  WTF on Thu Jun 23, 2016 11:55 pm

Right now he looks like a kid that doesn't have a lot of drive defensively my guess is that SVG thinks he can turn that around. I wouldn't be shocked if this kid turns out to be a better passer and ball-handler considering he was a PG before his growth spurt. Still I wasn't looking for a starter so I guess this isn't a bad project player at #18 17 and 9 not a bad stat line for a freshmen. But he does look horrible defensively in that video.
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Re: FORUM

Post  cool breeze on Thu Jun 23, 2016 11:40 pm

WTF wrote:He was never known for his passing ability coming out of high school, and did not always looking like a willing distributor as a freshman, even if his passing metrics are not terrible considering how inefficient Marquette was offensively as a whole this year. It's reasonable to say that his passing ability has plenty of room for growth as the game slows down for him and he's surrounded with better players than he has had thus far in his career. This will be important considering the role he'll likely be asked to play facing the basket on the perimeter, where a lot of offense could be run through him.

The biggest concerns about Ellenson as a NBA prospect revolve around his play on the defensive end. At 6'10, he is somewhat heavy legged stepping out on the perimeter and guarding quicker power forwards, and doesn't show great explosiveness or timing as a rim protector to allow him to anchor a team's defense at the center position.

Ellenson's instincts, awareness and intensity level leaves a lot to be desired defensively, as he's not one to put his body on the line and struggles trying to cover ground on the pick and roll, often looking flat-footed rotating on the back of his heels and getting caught in no man's land. Playing alongside a similarly challenged 6'11 center in a twin-tower lineup didn't do him a lot of favors at the college level, but this is something he'll probably have to deal with at the power forward spot in the NBA as well.

Defensive concerns are likely always going to be a serious issue unless Ellenson makes a real commitment to playing harder and smarter on this end of the floor, something you can't necessarily close the book on considering he's only 19 years old. With that said, the early results thus far haven't been promising.

Ellenson's physical tools, skill-level and natural talent make it very easy to see him finding success at the NBA level offensively, and in a draft like this, he is an easy player to plug into the 5-10 portion of the draft. Just how effective he becomes will largely depend on fit and his ability to become a significantly better defender, but there will always be a place for a big man with his scoring instincts.

WTF thanks for the information. Great job!

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FORUM

Post  WTF on Thu Jun 23, 2016 11:02 pm

He was never known for his passing ability coming out of high school, and did not always looking like a willing distributor as a freshman, even if his passing metrics are not terrible considering how inefficient Marquette was offensively as a whole this year. It's reasonable to say that his passing ability has plenty of room for growth as the game slows down for him and he's surrounded with better players than he has had thus far in his career. This will be important considering the role he'll likely be asked to play facing the basket on the perimeter, where a lot of offense could be run through him.

The biggest concerns about Ellenson as a NBA prospect revolve around his play on the defensive end. At 6'10, he is somewhat heavy legged stepping out on the perimeter and guarding quicker power forwards, and doesn't show great explosiveness or timing as a rim protector to allow him to anchor a team's defense at the center position.

Ellenson's instincts, awareness and intensity level leaves a lot to be desired defensively, as he's not one to put his body on the line and struggles trying to cover ground on the pick and roll, often looking flat-footed rotating on the back of his heels and getting caught in no man's land. Playing alongside a similarly challenged 6'11 center in a twin-tower lineup didn't do him a lot of favors at the college level, but this is something he'll probably have to deal with at the power forward spot in the NBA as well.

Defensive concerns are likely always going to be a serious issue unless Ellenson makes a real commitment to playing harder and smarter on this end of the floor, something you can't necessarily close the book on considering he's only 19 years old. With that said, the early results thus far haven't been promising.

Ellenson's physical tools, skill-level and natural talent make it very easy to see him finding success at the NBA level offensively, and in a draft like this, he is an easy player to plug into the 5-10 portion of the draft. Just how effective he becomes will largely depend on fit and his ability to become a significantly better defender, but there will always be a place for a big man with his scoring instincts.
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