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Re: FORUM

Post  KaySlay on Thu Dec 29, 2016 3:03 pm

BallinD wrote:

Oracle: Nerlens Noel, that was my suggestion.  I'd roll with it if we can get another piece with him (who can shoot) for RJax.

BTW: did anybody notice how when we played Reggie and Ish together last night, Reggie was playing SG and Ish was playing PG, but Reggie made damn sure to keep the ball out of Ish's hands and to keep dribbling for himself, demanding the ball and waving other players off, while Ish was standing in the corner creating space.  What kind of F#cking scheme is that for success.  I'm super over this jerk.    He sat on the bench and did not learn a damn thing.  TRADE!!!!  Yeah that's an emotional reaction but sheesh, enough is enough!!

You and I seem to be on similar wavelengths when it comes to our issues at hand. Tobias is still getting his minutes and his efficiency has increased after going to the bench. I don't think that's our problem.

You admitted wanting a trade for Noel. Do you think that solely will solve our problems? Will PHI even entertain this? Who do we trade to get him? Will we have to blow it up after making such a move or are there pieces that you believe we should not part with?

The first step to solving the problem is admitting you have one. My eyes tell me that is at Coach Kuester and at PG. I have NBA league pass but admit I missed the second half of the Cavs game as well at the Bucks game. As someone who gets to watch the games regularly, how do you think we should proceed with this young team? To the others that are actually watching this catasprohie, any ideas?

I believe SVG needs some help at coach. Too early to get rid of him, and I don't think that would be a good idea anyway. Instead can we get a very good, veteran, savvy assistant to help him on the micro level? Who's available that fits the description?
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Re: FORUM

Post  Sparma on Thu Dec 29, 2016 2:48 pm

I agree completely that SVG talked out of both sides of his mouth, BallinD.  Also that he should have integrated Reggie slowly, or else have made a quick adjustment.  Having stalled, now we've got a major mess on our hands, with no clear way forward.  Trade Reggie?  Gladly, but his value's at a low now.  And who'd play PG?  Ish still seems better suited for a back up role.  Given that it looks like we're stuck with Reggie as a dominant player, it's understandable that SVG's been overly delicate with him individually, even though he did say bluntly that the team got worse since he returned.  

Didn't we already discuss a Leuer for Harris switch before Reggie returned?  That line up switch, which looks like a good idea taken in isolation, didn't have much to do with Reggie's return, although Leuer, with his lower usage, can better co-exist with Reggie than can Harris.  More like something that already made sense than a head on dealing with the core problem that Mahoney and BallinD describe so well.

Incidentally, right after we beat Cleveland, Langlois spoke (as I remember) of a bad stretch of three bad losses, followed by decent play but poor shooting against Memphis, then a tough loss against GS.  Not too early to go into full-blown crisis mode now, is it Keith?  Still, a win against Milwaukee would have suggested to me that we were headed in the right direction over a 4 game stretch.  Maybe something flukish about one team shooting red hot and the other being ice cold?  Nah, it's a crisis.

The team's pulled off some trades I wouldn't have thought possible during SVG's reign, especially the Harris trade which included a hobbled Jennings.  Some source of hope?
 
BallinD wrote:The cat is out of the bag.  You normally can't put the genie back in the bottle.  What to do?  Who knows? SVG obviously does not. He blew it up, (chemistry, ball movement, mojo).  Will he have to blow the team up to fix it?

Two huge blunders:

Putting Reggie back in before he was ready, and before our run had run its course.

Not pulling Reggie for his stunt and holding him accountable.  Even SI and surely everybody else saw him strait pouting and called it as such while SVG covered for him, talking out of both sides of his mouth.  Well, the team saw it too and so here we are... because you can't put the genie back in the bottle.

Rob Mahoney SI:The case has been made, though—by how Detroit struggled under playoff scrutiny and how it held up in his absence—that Jackson shouldn’t be the sole engine of an offense.

There are ways for him to create and help carry a team without ranking sixth in the league in time of possession. The Pistons are hoping to find them, and along the way encountering all the friction that comes with working against a player’s comforts.

Caldwell-Pope suddenly had the ball in his hands more often than he ever had in the pros. His assist rate nearly doubled. Harris became a more featured piece out of necessity. He led an 11–10 team in scoring (17.1 points per game). Drummond’s role changed, too, to allow for more face-up drives in the post and a little more agency overall. Losing Jackson didn’t make the Pistons a better team by any means. But removing a clear reliance on a single creator proved freeing in a way Detroit badly needed.


So we see it wasn't about getting Leuer in the starting lineup.  It wasn't all about Defense.  We were at one point, second best defensive performing team in the league (pre-Reggie)

My optimism for this season was based on SVG getting the boys running on all cylinders, more than anything else -- he has the pieces -- but now, without that, (Thanks Stan) without a star (we knew we didn't have one) and without chemistry and mojo the intangible element that is hard to quantify, you have to see it and recognize it and try to bottle it, not pour it out of the bottle and down the drain.

Oracle: Nerlens Noel, that was my suggestion.  I'd roll with it if we can get another piece with him (who can shoot) for RJax.

BTW: did anybody notice how when we played Reggie and Ish together last night, Reggie was playing SG and Ish was playing PG, but Reggie made damn sure to keep the ball out of Ish's hands and to keep dribbling for himself, demanding the ball and waving other players off, while Ish was standing in the corner creating space.  What kind of F#cking scheme is that for success.  I'm super over this jerk.    He sat on the bench and did not learn a damn thing.  TRADE!!!!  Yeah that's an emotional reaction but sheesh, enough is enough!!
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Forum

Post  BallinD on Thu Dec 29, 2016 2:04 pm

The cat is out of the bag.  You normally can't put the genie back in the bottle.  What to do?  Who knows? SVG obviously does not. He blew it up, (chemistry, ball movement, mojo).  Will he have to blow the team up to fix it?

Two huge blunders:

Putting Reggie back in before he was ready, and before our run had run its course.

Not pulling Reggie for his stunt and holding him accountable.  Even SI and surely everybody else saw him strait pouting and called it as such while SVG covered for him, talking out of both sides of his mouth.  Well, the team saw it too and so here we are... because you can't put the genie back in the bottle.

Rob Mahoney SI:The case has been made, though—by how Detroit struggled under playoff scrutiny and how it held up in his absence—that Jackson shouldn’t be the sole engine of an offense.

There are ways for him to create and help carry a team without ranking sixth in the league in time of possession. The Pistons are hoping to find them, and along the way encountering all the friction that comes with working against a player’s comforts.

Caldwell-Pope suddenly had the ball in his hands more often than he ever had in the pros. His assist rate nearly doubled. Harris became a more featured piece out of necessity. He led an 11–10 team in scoring (17.1 points per game). Drummond’s role changed, too, to allow for more face-up drives in the post and a little more agency overall. Losing Jackson didn’t make the Pistons a better team by any means. But removing a clear reliance on a single creator proved freeing in a way Detroit badly needed.


So we see it wasn't about getting Leuer in the starting lineup.  It wasn't all about Defense.  We were at one point, second best defensive performing team in the league (pre-Reggie)

My optimism for this season was based on SVG getting the boys running on all cylinders, more than anything else -- he has the pieces -- but now, without that, (Thanks Stan) without a star (we knew we didn't have one) and without chemistry and mojo the intangible element that is hard to quantify, you have to see it and recognize it and try to bottle it, not pour it out of the bottle and down the drain.

Oracle: Nerlens Noel, that was my suggestion.  I'd roll with it if we can get another piece with him (who can shoot) for RJax.

BTW: did anybody notice how when we played Reggie and Ish together last night, Reggie was playing SG and Ish was playing PG, but Reggie made damn sure to keep the ball out of Ish's hands and to keep dribbling for himself, demanding the ball and waving other players off, while Ish was standing in the corner creating space.  What kind of F#cking scheme is that for success.  I'm super over this jerk.    He sat on the bench and did not learn a damn thing.  TRADE!!!!  Yeah that's an emotional reaction but sheesh, enough is enough!!
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Sparma: I figured it out...

Post  Oracle on Thu Dec 29, 2016 1:39 pm

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I can't remember who wanted us to go after Nerlens Noel...

Post  Oracle on Thu Dec 29, 2016 1:34 pm

But, that's looking better to me right now.

IMO, additional rim protection would go a long way with this team.

I still say that Reggie Jackson is over TWICE the player Ish Smith is... Unfortunately he's less than half the fit that Ish is!

It's coaching that can't make the changes needed to win... hell, SVG won't even try this idea(even though I understand why).

@Sparma - The link you gave isn't working
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SI Analysis

Post  Sparma on Thu Dec 29, 2016 1:21 pm

Excellent article by Rob Mahoney at http://www.si.com/nba/2016/12/29/pistons-reggie-jackson-thunder-andre-drummond-stan-van-gundy. As someone who reads, listens, and watches highlights, I thought he effectively described Reggie's contributions to the crisis, managing to place them in the larger context of team dynamics over a stretch of time. Others who watch the games may see things differently. He pretty well ignores whatever coaching component there might be though.
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Draft

Post  Sparma on Thu Dec 29, 2016 1:06 pm

I've felt prompted to take my first look of the year at Tankathon, an excellent site.  The good (???) news is that we're up to #12 in the projected lottery, with 0.7% chance to get the top pick; on the other hand, I was reminded that we gave up our second round pick (in the Reggie J. transaction), now sitting at the 42th slot, which could net quite a decent player in a strong draft.  They project us taking O.G. Anunoby, Indiana's SF, with that 12th pick.

Boston clearly rebuilt the right way, even though they haven't been able to trade for a star; they're projected to pick #2 (from Brooklyn), along with 3 2nd round picks.  Philadelphia's approach was excessive, leaving them was too many big men, but I still basically like what they did.  In addition to this year's ROY and some other nice pieces, they (provisionally) hold the top spot as well as the Laker's #7 pick, in addition to two second rounders.  I like Philly's future more than ours, unless Embiid's health falters (again).
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Harris

Post  KaySlay on Thu Dec 29, 2016 12:10 pm

Tobias is averaging 30 minutes, 23 Pts and shooting over 50% from the field since going to the bench 3 games ago. His production and efficiency has actually increased. We are lucky to have 3 players in Leuer, Harris, and Morris that we can rotate through. If I had my choice I would have demoted Morris. That being said I believe PG play, coaching, and the play of Drummond are higher on our need to fix list.
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Milwaukee game

Post  Phil1980boy on Thu Dec 29, 2016 9:35 am

Detroit has they most improved, most focused player coming off the bench. In A reduced role as A specialist scorer. Bad...Bad decision by Van Gundy. finger wag finger wag

Detroit is not Boston, LA, Miami, MY, Chicago, or any of the Texas teams.

You don't ask A 24 year old kid with star potential to play A reduced role to help lesser players fit better together like Reggie Jackson, John Leuer and M.Morris. Sorry!! Not in Detroit... Detroit don't have the luxury.

No matter what you don't ask Drummonds, KCP and T.Harris to play reduced roles. If anything you put more on they plate because these are key guys moving forward!!! Believe it or not, it's not all about this season. Van Gundy has to have more long term vision.

Look at Milwaukee. No matter what happens, you don't ask J.Parker or the Greek freak to play reduced roles. This is why Monroe is the odd man out. Because playing Monroe directly effects the Greek Freak and J.Parker's development. Milwaukee took A step back last season.

Does anybody give A S.H.I.T about that last night when they lit the Pistons A.S.S up? Hell NO!

Yes Van Gundy. Take the blame! Take the heat. You need to do better as A head coach and have better long term vision as the GM. Right now both are lacking. thumbs down thumbs down thumbs down thumbs down thumbs down thumbs down thumbs down



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Wow...

Post  Oracle on Wed Dec 28, 2016 11:07 pm

It's time for some serious soul searching... SVG is doing something wrong!

This is a coaching crisis, the Leuer experiment appears to be a fix to a problem we didn't have.

Color me confused and really disappointed!
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GB

Post  Sparma on Wed Dec 28, 2016 4:38 pm

Oddly, 538 still gives the Lions a 51% chance to beat GB. Those numbers don't mean much after the fact, but it's interesting going in. I would think GB needs to be the favorite, even though I think the Lions have a good chance (40%?).
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Was it really neccesary to regress in order to progress?

Post  deusXango on Wed Dec 28, 2016 6:04 am

Phil1980boy wrote:
Still not A fan of Harris coming off the bench. I love John in the starting 5. Now Drummonds has somebody else fighting for rebounds other then him. But T. Harris is A starting forward in this league. And when Harris contract is up, you better believe every team that comes after him will let him know that.

I agree 100% with P-Boy on this; he often know what he's talking about and this is a classic example of that! Anybody that think T. Harris is not the top "go-to guy" on this team is badly mistaken. It's high minded for an armchair fan to talk about the merits of bringing Tobias off the bench but, in reality it's a professional insult (to be benched in an attempt to curry favor with a lessor player). He's a better, smarter, and more team oriented player than both Morris and Jackson, and plays with a higher basketball I.Q.; he was a starter in this league when both of them were coming off their respective teams benches!

SVG has beat the drum about the teams lack of defense for justifying making changes in the starting lineup but, we were getting our ass kicked because of lack of offensive flow; when Reggie decided to return to the team, that was the time to move Morris to the bench with him, until Reggie was ready to be reinserted into the starting lineup. Andre was beginning to play the best and most consistent basketball of his career, as was KCP. KCP is the best defender on the Pistons and Andre deserved to have Harris and Leuer on the frontline with him; even on the nights the offense stalled, that starting unit would've been more effective. Smith isn't a superior player over Jackson but, he's better in the starting unit than Jackson, from his return until now. Why can't Jackson be this "Super 6th Man" that we want to turn Harris into? RJ's turning the ball over more than Ish was, he's slowed down the offense and I don't see an increase in defense coming from the PG position. Who can honestly say they'd rather see Reggie pounding the air out of the ball (in an attempt to be a one man band/hero with our starters) instead of playing with our 2nd unit? It's too late now, however that was a dumb-ass move by SVG, in terms of timing and player deployment. A quarter of the way into the season (we were playing +.500) and he decides to take a backwards step, and now we're nearing the halfway mark playing sub .500 ball.

"We couldn't have sustained that level of play;" who the hell knows for sure?! "We weren't going to make the playoffs anyway." Yeah, right. We have a more talented team this year but, it's expected that we play an inferior brand of basketball. Maybe I'm delusional, a homer, or just plain foolish but, I can't get with any of that! I've always heard that a great coach is worth 5-10 wins in a season, and SVG being a great coach, whatever the team does we can give credit to SVG for 5-10 of those wins...bullsh!t. We've got stars in our eyes now but, I can't help but wonder how we'll view our great coach next year this time.

A wins a win but we crept by a LeBron James-less Cavaliers, and even though it was a win, I ain't convinced Jackson has suddenly turned a corner and just what we need, anymore than I'm sold on Harris being our permanent 6th man; a team that's developing, as we are, don't need to be platooning our forwards. IMHO that's not progress.

GO PISTONS!!
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Thank you Lebron The King James

Post  Phil1980boy on Wed Dec 28, 2016 4:23 am

Thank you Lebron and coach Ty Lue for tossing the old, tired, beat up, dogs, Detroit Pistons A bone and not playing Lebron James.

The Pistons needed that win like I need A Billon dollars in my bank account. REAL..REAL..Real..BAD!

Still not A fan of Harris coming off the bench. I love John in the starting 5. Now Drummonds has somebody else fighting for rebounds other then him. But T.Harris is A starting forward in this league. And when Harris contract is up, you better believe every team that comes after him will let him know that.
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Re: FORUM

Post  Sparma on Tue Dec 27, 2016 11:07 pm

Thanks for your message, KaySlay. You've been a great addition to the forum.

KaySlay wrote:
WTF wrote:I don't understand why so many are comfortable with what they're seeing night in and night out.  There are types when the right pass occur and the open man is found but it's not coming off a set play.   This is clearly on the shoulders of SVG and IMO he doesn't have the right mix of players which is why I think a shake is in order.  

if it takes til March for the team to get it together it might be too late by then.  We're sitting like at 11th or 12th right now and might still be there in March.   This team needs to run the table damn near the entire month of January.

Agreed! I am not at all comfortable with what I see going on in the games, however I am a marginally optimistic. Despite us sitting at #11 in the east we have the same number of wins as the Hawks at #6. Outside the top 3 or 4 teams in the east, not one is playing exceptionally well. If we can go on a decent run we are back competing for a decent playoff spot. hehe

To Oracle, Ballin, Sparma, dX and the rest, I love and appreciate the different perspectives and passion everyone here has about our Pistons. Besides my pops, I have no other people to discuss my favorite professional team with. You guys our my Pistons outlet.  Thanks for all you do!
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Re: FORUM

Post  KaySlay on Tue Dec 27, 2016 8:34 pm

WTF wrote:I don't understand why so many are comfortable with what they're seeing night in and night out.  There are types when the right pass occur and the open man is found but it's not coming off a set play.   This is clearly on the shoulders of SVG and IMO he doesn't have the right mix of players which is why I think a shake is in order.  

if it takes til March for the team to get it together it might be too late by then.  We're sitting like at 11th or 12th right now and might still be there in March.   This team needs to run the table damn near the entire month of January.

Agreed! I am not at all comfortable with what I see going on in the games, however I am a marginally optimistic. Despite us sitting at #11 in the east we have the same number of wins as the Hawks at #6. Outside the top 3 or 4 teams in the east, not one is playing exceptionally well. If we can go on a decent run we are back competing for a decent playoff spot. hehe

To Oracle, Ballin, Sparma, dX and the rest, I love and appreciate the different perspectives and passion everyone here has about our Pistons. Besides my pops, I have no other people to discuss my favorite professional team with. You guys our my Pistons outlet. Thanks for all you do!
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I'm Not So Optimistic

Post  WTF on Tue Dec 27, 2016 8:00 pm

BallinD wrote:To me, the offense is a bigger problem than the D.  There is little fluidity movement, crisp passing and so we see one-on-one and everybody stand around and watch.  Reggie said Stan calls the plays, but I and others watching see No Plays being run, just improvisation street ball style, more than 50% of the time?????

Cool Breeze: The Piston offense is so primitive that I have difficulty enjoying how the team plays even when they win. Players do not play together on offense. The floor spacing looks good before the initial pass is made in the half court offense if indeed even one pass is made.

I'm willing to wait and see, since for all practical purposes we are just now coming out of training camp with our point guard. My heart tells me it will come together March-April time-frame, but if we are relying exclusively on the PnR, trouble is ahead.  To me that seems a copout on the part of SVG.  Maybe he does not believe we have the personnel to execute a modern motion-based NBA offense, but we saw it with Ish out there before Reggie returned, so there is that.

BTW,
Our two best players (Dre/RJax) are probably our two worst defenders.  How is that gonna work going forward?

Too funny but very true I haven't seen play running since 2008 with this team. IMO SVG pick up where Joe left off (a bunch of parts but nothing moving fluidly or with a real purpose. It's okay if you have smart players but its nothing bread and butter with this group, no go to guy or go to play.

I don't understand why so many are comfortable with what they're seeing night in and night out. There are types when the right pass occur and the open man is found but it's not coming off a set play. This is clearly on the shoulders of SVG and IMO he doesn't have the right mix of players which is why I think a shake is in order.

if it takes til March for the team to get it together it might be too late by then. We're sitting like at 11th or 12th right now and might still be there in March. This team needs to run the table damn near the entire month of January.
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Exactly, Cool

Post  BallinD on Tue Dec 27, 2016 7:26 pm

To me, the offense is a bigger problem than the D.  There is little fluidity movement, crisp passing and so we see one-on-one and everybody stand around and watch.  Reggie said Stan calls the plays, but I and others watching see No Plays being run, just improvisation street ball style, more than 50% of the time?????

Cool Breeze: The Piston offense is so primitive that I have difficulty enjoying how the team plays even when they win. Players do not play together on offense. The floor spacing looks good before the initial pass is made in the half court offense if indeed even one pass is made.

I'm willing to wait and see, since for all practical purposes we are just now coming out of training camp with our point guard. My heart tells me it will come together March-April timeframe, but if we are relying exclusively on the PnR, trouble is ahead.  To me that seems a copout on the part of SVG.  Maybe he does not believe we have the personnel to execute a modern motion-based NBA offense, but we saw it with Ish out there before Reggie returned, so there is that.

BTW,
Our two best players (Dre/RJax) are probably our two worst defenders.  How is that gonna work going forward?
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Re: FORUM

Post  cool breeze on Tue Dec 27, 2016 6:25 pm

BallinD wrote:Maybe this was the shakeup we needed, getting Leuer in there to start and Tobias being our sixth man of the year candidate.  

Color me hopeful this uptick in effort and fit is bigger than the small sample size. guitar

We won and who doesn't feel good when that happens. We beat Cleveland minus Labron. But that was a butt ugly basketball game if you can call it a real basketball game. The Piston offense is so primitive that I have difficulty enjoying how the team plays even when they win. Players do not play together on offense. The floor spacing looks good before the initial pass is made in the half court offense if indeed even one pass is made. Pope has been hitting that 3 point shot in transition after a missed shot by an opponent. But what happens when Pope misses or for that matter when other players jack a shot up before an Piston player even gets down court and into the painted area? Who does that but teams that have a lot of rookies and reside in the basement on their conference? Teams like Golden State jack up a lot of 3 point shots a lot of the time even in transition but that is team consisting of proven high percentage shooters. That team has rare talent. But even Golden State employs a beautiful half court offense full of player and ball movement with plenty of sacrifice by teammates in setting screens playing team orientated help defense etc. Detroit is getting some open looks on long range shots and they settle for that long range jump shot because it looks to me that many members of the team do not think they will touch the basketball or the guy with the basketball will even notice it when they set a screen on the weak side. Nobody looks to pass the basketball and the ball hogs play only one side of the court. I believe there was a shot period before Reggie returned when the Pistons did execute the half court offense and team members let situations develop and made the extra pass. Then it all suddenly ended as fast as it started. All I see are individual players doing everything on their own. Then when a player does have something go their way on the offensive end, that player might do a shake or dance a bit and forget about playing defense on the other end of the floor. Like I said this Piston team is primitive at best so I for one cannot see any improvement at all from last year to this year. Detroit made the playoffs last season when they had a run of good fortune at the end of the season. Washington suffered some serious injuries and other competing teams did not have a favorable schedule. The Pistons also played some teams during that run who did not play their best basketball. If any NBA team now plays their best basketball, our Pistons look like a minor league team. If those long range low percentage shots are not going in I only see Harris and Jackson trying to make a play in the painted area. And the Pistons defense seems to be a lot worse off than last season.

With this style of play Detroit employs, Reggie Jackson will need to be superman once he rounds into game shape. If that happens, maybe players like Andre Drummond will become more interested in playing the right way.

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STEALING MOMENTUM

Post  WTF on Tue Dec 27, 2016 6:04 pm

That's what happened!!!!!!

When the lions went up on Dallas you could almost smell it coming and that was all the pursuing questionable calls that directly and indirectly turned the game in Dallas favor. First the pass interference call and not the grabbing of the face guard that pulled the defender into the WR bull ****, then the excessive tackle call (you **** kidding me) Then the no calls on the two shot Stafford took to the head from Cowboy defenders.

Granted the Lions still could have very well lose but this **** has to stop IMO had the ref called the game correctly it could have brought a different outcome. Yes some rush passes, and abandoning a run game that was working and a weakened secondary played its part but damned if the refs to help the Cowboys out.
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Oracle

Post  Sparma on Tue Dec 27, 2016 4:28 pm

Thanks!

Oracle wrote:
Sparma wrote:At the risk of knocking a hornet's nest, I'll venture three thoughts on improvement.  I take it KaySlay holds the first emphatically (but Oracle holds it as well, as evidenced by his initial posting?), while Oracle holds the second, and maybe the third.  I believe all three, and see no contradiction.

1) It's not plausible, at this point, to say that overall team performance has improved over last year. - They can under perform, which I recognized, while saying that it's too early to call. Nobody in their right mind could say that looking at the numbers that they've improved, which is why I never said that.

2) Yet when you break team performance into smaller segments, a case can be made for pockets of improvement.  Specifically, just before Reggie's return, team ball distribution and defense (both reflected by the stats) were excellent, amounting to an improved brand of basketball over last year. - This is a critical observation! If you fail to make this observation it's impossible to correct anything or get better. That's why I stressed this point because I guarantee you that anybody in charge of making decisions fully understands this.

3) A good case can be made that the roster's level of skill and talent has improved over that of last year, even though overall team performance doesn't (yet) reflect this improvement. - Ya think??? In fact, without fear of any major contradiction, damn near EVERYBODY on this forum knows that, almost every talking head knows that, and SVG and his staff knows that. That's why I agree with Ballin that it's less a player issue and more of a coaching issue that SVG is in the process of correcting.

However, I do see that clarity helps. When I say our team has improved, I mean EXACTLY what I said, I don't infer record/performance, I mean the team has improved. I don't think there are many people that believe otherwise.

But the numbers are the numbers and the performance is down. If you believe a shakeup is needed, you need to know what kind of shakeup you need, and IMO, right now, it's not the players that need it based on item 2!

That why I made of point of evaluating them in segments because it illuminates where the issues are and provides a possible blueprint for success.

Anyway, very good post and hardly stirring up anything, but providing additional clarity.
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Re: FORUM

Post  WTF on Tue Dec 27, 2016 2:49 pm

We may have better looking pieces here and there over last season roster but nothing say's right right so I'm hard press to fall into the belief that we have improved. The record speaks for itself and I'm not all that gunho with the slight uptick with any improvement stat wise. We did not keep pace with other teams over the summer improving our roster IMO.

We handed out a ton of money to player who not even marginally better than he was last season. I said this about Moose when he was here and now I'll say the same about Andre. "he's not getting any better, he has peaked or he just simply stuck on stupid in term of defense"

This team has no swag, they leave no heart and soul they just out there playing a game for too casually IMO. There's nothing we can stick to this team like the cry of Bad Boys or the "Goin To Work" mantra. We do't see a progression of getting better in terms of player addition or record wise these players don't want it hard enough.

It's not a number, it's not a stat but its right there in our face that this team has no real passion and no hunger. After what they accomplished last season there's no excuse for what we're getting now even with Reggie being out, Here we are a month away from mid season and we're not above .500 and it's simply no excuse for it.
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Sparma, good post!

Post  Oracle on Tue Dec 27, 2016 1:49 pm

Sparma wrote:At the risk of knocking a hornet's nest, I'll venture three thoughts on improvement.  I take it KaySlay holds the first emphatically (but Oracle holds it as well, as evidenced by his initial posting?), while Oracle holds the second, and maybe the third.  I believe all three, and see no contradiction.

1) It's not plausible, at this point, to say that overall team performance has improved over last year. - They can under perform, which I recognized, while saying that it's too early to call. Nobody in their right mind could say that looking at the numbers that they've improved, which is why I never said that.

2) Yet when you break team performance into smaller segments, a case can be made for pockets of improvement.  Specifically, just before Reggie's return, team ball distribution and defense (both reflected by the stats) were excellent, amounting to an improved brand of basketball over last year. - This is a critical observation! If you fail to make this observation it's impossible to correct anything or get better. That's why I stressed this point because I guarantee you that anybody in charge of making decisions fully understands this.

3) A good case can be made that the roster's level of skill and talent has improved over that of last year, even though overall team performance doesn't (yet) reflect this improvement. - Ya think??? In fact, without fear of any major contradiction, damn near EVERYBODY on this forum knows that, almost every talking head knows that, and SVG and his staff knows that. That's why I agree with Ballin that it's less a player issue and more of a coaching issue that SVG is in the process of correcting.

However, I do see that clarity helps. When I say our team has improved, I mean EXACTLY what I said, I don't infer record/performance, I mean the team has improved. I don't think there are many people that believe otherwise.

But the numbers are the numbers and the performance is down. If you believe a shakeup is needed, you need to know what kind of shakeup you need, and IMO, right now, it's not the players that need it based on item 2!

That why I made of point of evaluating them in segments because it illuminates where the issues are and provides a possible blueprint for success.

Anyway, very good post and hardly stirring up anything, but providing additional clarity.
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DX

Post  Oracle on Tue Dec 27, 2016 1:30 pm

This is where I go to get everything basketball: Basketball Reference - http://www.basketball-reference.com/

If it ain't there, it doesn't exist Smile
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Improvement?

Post  Sparma on Tue Dec 27, 2016 10:46 am

At the risk of knocking a hornet's nest, I'll venture three thoughts on improvement.  I take it KaySlay holds the first emphatically (but Oracle holds it as well, as evidenced by his initial posting?), while Oracle holds the second, and maybe the third.  I believe all three, and see no contradiction.

1) It's not plausible, at this point, to say that overall team performance has improved over last year.

2) Yet when you break team performance into smaller segments, a case can be made for pockets of improvement.  Specifically, just before Reggie's return, team ball distribution and defense (both reflected by the stats) were excellent, amounting to an improved brand of basketball over last year.

3) A good case can be made that the roster's level of skill and talent has improved over that of last year, even though overall team performance doesn't (yet) reflect this improvement.
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Re: FORUM

Post  deusXango on Tue Dec 27, 2016 4:55 am

Oracle wrote:
I always feel good when I see stats like this,



When the distribution is this good between Leuer, Morris, KCP and Harris, with both PG's dishing decent assists, we should win!

Oracle, you're the most techno savvy poster on this forum, IMHO, and it's in that spirit I ask that you assist me and all that have the same concerns. What were the stats in the 5-10 games leading up to Reggie's return? I don't know where to find them but, I'm curious about the assist totals of Ish and Beno, and their turnovers. How balanced was the scoring and what was the defense like? Thanks in advance for your able assistance partner.
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Re: FORUM

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