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I disagree that a the Bucks have no chance of defeating the Bulls

Post  cool breeze on Tue Apr 21, 2015 11:10 am

This last game proved something significant for the Bucks team. They didn't allow many points in the paint. They rejected almost all shot attempts in the paint by Chicago big men. The Bucks were right in that game until the last minute. What a great job the Bucks management team has done along with great coaching by Kidd. This team is really fun to watch. The players are in fantastic physical condition. The Palace would be full if we had a team like that. Chicago had to make some really tough shots last night and to their credit they did. As Charles Barkley said, Chicago have all the ingredients necessary to win the championship. Great job last night by both teams.

Through the years of playing, coaching and watching basketball, I crave teams that have good athletic big men who really works their butts off on the defensive end. Big men on the Bulls and the Bucks did that last night. Games are just more fun to watch with those hard nosed player types. I don't care if they can't make shots. What I don't like to watch are slow big men who look like they are about to have a heart attack when they run between the free throw lines. Piston management decided to go slow with big men who gather big stats while their teams lose. What stats are in place to show the hard effort players on those two teams made last night when big men moved out to help or set a double team and then sprinted back recovering in time to stop dribble penetration or jump high to block a shot at the last possible moment. We Piston fans have not seen many of those moments over the past 7 years. If we had a different type team, the Palace would be full. Just imagine how the City of Detroit would be in love with the Piston team if we could exchange our entire team and our number one draft pick for all the current members of the Bucks team. This Bucks team's bread and butter all season long has been their ability to create turnovers. All the Bucks players look similar in physical construction. They are sleek and quick. If only Joe Dumars had gone to the Bucks and John Hammond stayed in Piston management. The Bucks are proving Joe Dumars wrong again and again with Joe's cavalier attitude relating to the significance of playing strong defense and obtaining players capable of playing strong defense.

What is Stan Van Gundy going to do now. Has he been watching the Bucks? Our Pistons have one of the worst defensive teams in the entire NBA still even after one season with Van Gundy running things. Our biggest weakness relating to our defense is our current big men. Anthony is the only player who knows what he is doing and he is old and actually a fringe type player. Tom Gores comes out and states that Andre Drummond is a franchise player. Drummond is not sleek or fast running from free throw line to free throw line. He really didn't concentrate on improving his defense this past season. But say he does get better next year then can he double and recover or will he box out anyone when an opponent's shot goes up? Will he get tired and stand and watch like Monroe has done every season he has played for the Pistons? Our Pistons are so far away from becoming a solid team it is scary. I was thinking last night as to how Meeks would match up against either Chicago or the Bucks. He is small and is not a good defender. Can he make up for his small size for a 2 guard with incredible outside shooting? Did Van Gundy think about Meeks lack of size before signing him? Or was Stan desperate? Remember what he said early on. Detroit is not a highly rated destination for free agents. You have to take what you can get. So he took Meeks and Tolliver. He would have preferred Middleton but of course Tom Gores and Joe Dumars ruined that opportunity.

The best we can hope for is to be a 500 type team that can make the playoffs and lose in the first round. The Bucks are building a team that can beat anybody with their defense. The shots will start falling for them in coming seasons. They are getting open shots through hard work. They are playing the right way. We have two players who fit in the category of the Bucks team and other teams like the Bucks. Jackson and Pope have the potential to do all the things some of the successful NBA players are now doing in the playoffs. They need more athletic players around them though to make the team successful. If and this is a big if, Drummond can mature and become an average defender and last least keep up with his team in transition from offense to defense and become a better shot blocker, then we have 3 players to count on getting better and becoming a real force in the league. If this is true, then somehow, Stan Van Gundy needs to find 5 new players to fit those three current players. We need 5 new players who are fast, in great physical condition and enjoy playing hard nosed defense. You have to establish DEFENSE FIRST before you can have a good team. This is something foreign to Joe Dumars in his role as a front office man. He didn't have that vision at all. I am still trying to figure out what he vision was if he ever had one in his declining years as the leader of our team.

How in hell will Stan Van Gundy get 5 solid young players over the summer? That is what is needed if the owner ever expects to fill the Palace again. We need a complete rebuild Piston fans and the sooner the owner and Stan Van Gundy admits as much, the better. His management teams needs to perform a miracle to look everywhere to find the right players. The idea that Monroe would return to play for the Pistons again is insane. I like Moose and he could blend in on an established team full of great defensive players. He is not a player who can lead the way by example. If he is on a good team, he will be a better player. If only we had an Anthony Davis type big guy all would be well in Piston land.

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"Tom Gores Nixed Joe Dumars max extension offer for Greg Monroe - Who spilled the beans?

Post  deusXango on Tue Apr 21, 2015 1:44 am

More of the manipulative Joe Dumars and his paid slanderers shifting the blame to a naive ownership; first Karen Davidson, now Tom Gores. After the 2004 championship run, what did Dumars do in terms of reloading or improving the dwindling talent on the team? Nothing, because it was always ownerships fault, even though head scratching move after head scratching move was made, with ownerships alleged approval. Before anyone brings it up, those ECF runs were based on him standing pat, year after year until the talent base was no longer effective.

I liked Brandon Knight a lot, but could tell that Khris Middleton was the superior talent, in that trade, that netted us an unwanted castoff...let's be real folks, Milwaukee nor anyone else wanted to be bothered with Jennings, at the time of the trade, much less giving up two promising assets to sign him, but Joe had Billups back (talking sh!t about being the starter) and he decided that was the ideal excuse for ridding the team of Knight. The young man wasn't given a fair chance to develop here and that trade ranks right up there with the Gordon and a 1st round pick for an unused Maggette....how many fans did that sh!t make sense to? Joe's gone, so let's let him go, and that includes his hired slanderers also.
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"Tom Gores Nixed Joe Dumars max extension offer for Greg Monroe - Who spilled the beans?

Post  cool breeze on Tue Apr 21, 2015 12:36 am

Did Joe leak that to the press? My thought after watching the performance of Middleton in the first half of the Bucks-Bulls game is why in hell didn't Mr. Gores nix the insane trade Joe made giving away both Knight and Middleton. Watching the Bucks team is fun. Every player is fast and committed to playing great defense. These Bucks are fighters. They have athletes. Sure they miss some shots but that will come in time. Meanwhile they are getting great playoff experience.

Good job Joe and Tom is making that trade. Damn it all!

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Oracle

Post  deusXango on Mon Apr 20, 2015 11:43 pm

Oracle wrote:
deusXango wrote:These are the players who are high on my "trade at all costs if you can" list:

1. Brandon Jennings to the Lakers, if they want to chance him being what they can get by with; Jennings is certain to be more productive and cost less than Nash. Let's not overvalue; many of us knew he wasn't the answer long term and now that we have Jackson and Dinwiddie (who both deserve PT) he's an asset more so than a rotation player for us. - Yes, if the Lakers want him, we need to make that move, but that does leave a hole for the 3rd guard!
2. F@ckin' Jodie Meeks to whoever will take him! He never really contributed our .500 season after Josh was traded and from my vantage point, he never really gelled with the team, plus as Don has questioned, who's he going to defend in the playoffs? That $6 million a year is an unexplored trade asset that's not discussed, but put to proper use, what can we come up with to improve the team? - We can't make him take less, but having him go is risky, and again, it leaves a hole. For a team that shoots horribly at the FT line, he shoots well above 90%!

I forget who said it, and I agreed, this will be one of the more interesting off seasons in years!!!
Add me to that number that thinks this should be one of the more interesting off seasons we've experienced in years, because if nothing else, both the coach/president and his GM are looking for redemption, and that can only come from the product they put on the floor for us. It's back to Go Pistons!!

Oracle, I wouldn't worry about the 3rd guard at this point, but one things for certain, you don't pay a 3rd guard $8.5 million who's playing on a gimpy drumstick; Jackson starts and Dinwiddie (6' 6") is his backup...if Jennings is played in front of Dinwiddie, particularly if he has a good Summer League performance, there'll be rioting in the streets.

Meeks is a hell of a FT shooter, but he wasn't signed to shoot FT's, he was signed to shoot 3's. There is a great possibility that SVG will draft Hezonja, if Johnson doesn't declare and Porzingis is off the board (you all know that my personal preference is Kaminsky), which leaves us with Mario and KCP at SG....essentially that might be the fire placed under KCP for him to play up to his expectations, but all this is just conjecture on my part. Like we've agreed on, this is going to be interesting!
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DX

Post  Oracle on Mon Apr 20, 2015 6:29 pm

deusXango wrote:These are the players who are high on my "trade at all costs if you can" list:

1. Brandon Jennings to the Lakers, if they want to chance him being what they can get by with; Jennings is certain to be more productive and cost less than Nash. Let's not overvalue; many of us knew he wasn't the answer long term and now that we have Jackson and Dinwiddie (who both deserve PT) he's an asset more so than a rotation player for us. - Yes, if the Lakers want him, we need to make that move, but that does leave a hole for the 3rd guard!
2. F@ckin' Jodie Meeks to whoever will take him! He never really contributed our .500 season after Josh was traded and from my vantage point, he never really gelled with the team, plus as Don has questioned, who's he going to defend in the playoffs? That $6 million a year is an unexplored trade asset that's not discussed, but put to proper use, what can we come up with to improve the team? - We can't make him take less, but having him go is risky, and again, it leaves a hole. For a team that shoots horribly at the FT line, he shoots well above 90%!

These are the players I'd let walk, without batting an eye, because of their status of being wayyy overvalued:

1. Greg Monroe is not worth two years of ballyhoo and hype over his inferred statements of not wanting to be a member of the Pistons and treated like we're losing a superstar, because we're not! Last summer his agent discouraged teams from presenting an offer sheet, because the Pistons may match (the curious thing is, the threat of teams matching their RFA's offers didn't stop teams from extending offers to Parsons and Haywood) or the nonsense that the earth will spin off it's axis if we don't receive something of value for him; SVG allowed that ship to sail last year by pussyfooting around. Now Monroe has what he sacrificed for, UFA! - Stones, Merc & I have wrestled with losing Monroe and who would replace him. As Stones said, too many are taking this personal, and it's BUSINESS! But no matter what we think or want, Monroe said he doesn't expect to be on the market more than 2-4 days once FA season starts... Sounds like he has his deal to me!
2. Caron Butler should be treated the same as Tayshaun Prince; let him go and hook up with a contending team! All the lessons learned in the locker room shouldn't be forgotten so soon and there's young veteran leadership, in the form of Jackson, that can take hold of the locker room and contribute on the floor....$4.5 million is a lot for a Michael Curry type player, once you consider what we can buy this year with the savings. IMHO there are some players with upstanding character and sound work habits in the locker room. - This is an easy call for me, let him walk, his work here is done!

I think we all know who's going to walk or be "kicked off the team" anyway: - LOL, all of these dudes are Dead Men Walking!!!

1. Shawne Williams did less than squat for us, by taking up time doing nothing.
2. Cartier Martin flirted, but didn't deliver...pissed me off because he was a FA signing! Those guys have nifty monikers though, Shawne and Cartier.
3. John Lucas III is a guy that was doomed from the get go; I wish him well because of the gamesmanship and professionalism he showed while here, but his days are done in the "D."
4. Tayshaun Prince, "The Palace Prince!" He's moving on, but I'm glad I got a chance to see him perform in a Pistons uniform one last time and we got a chance to thank him for days gone by...I hope he appreciated it.

I truly believe that if SVG and Bower can bring this mindset into play and act on it before the draft, not only will the draft go well, but the approach to FA won't be as haphazard as it was last summer, and we'll see not only a different team next fall, but a more competitive group of young men learning to play on both ends of the floor with more efficiency and effectiveness.

I forget who said it, and I agreed, this will be one of the more interesting off seasons in years!!!
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Give it a name

Post  deusXango on Mon Apr 20, 2015 5:06 pm

These are the players who are high on my "trade at all costs if you can" list:

1. Brandon Jennings to the Lakers, if they want to chance him being what they can get by with; Jennings is certain to be more productive and cost less than Nash. Let's not overvalue; many of us knew he wasn't the answer long term and now that we have Jackson and Dinwiddie (who both deserve PT) he's an asset more so than a rotation player for us.
2. F@ckin' Jodie Meeks to whoever will take him! He never really contributed our .500 season after Josh was traded and from my vantage point, he never really gelled with the team, plus as Don has questioned, who's he going to defend in the playoffs? That $6 million a year is an unexplored trade asset that's not discussed, but put to proper use, what can we come up with to improve the team?

These are the players I'd let walk, without batting an eye, because of their status of being wayyy overvalued:

1. Greg Monroe is not worth two years of ballyhoo and hype over his inferred statements of not wanting to be a member of the Pistons and treated like we're losing a superstar, because we're not! Last summer his agent discouraged teams from presenting an offer sheet, because the Pistons may match (the curious thing is, the threat of teams matching their RFA's offers didn't stop teams from extending offers to Parsons and Haywood) or the nonsense that the earth will spin off it's axis if we don't receive something of value for him; SVG allowed that ship to sail last year by pussyfooting around. Now Monroe has what he sacrificed for, UFA!
2. Caron Butler should be treated the same as Tayshaun Prince; let him go and hook up with a contending team! All the lessons learned in the locker room shouldn't be forgotten so soon and there's young veteran leadership, in the form of Jackson, that can take hold of the locker room and contribute on the floor....$4.5 million is a lot for a Michael Curry type player, once you consider what we can buy this year with the savings. IMHO there are some players with upstanding character and sound work habits in the locker room.

I think we all know who's going to walk or be "kicked off the team" anyway:

1. Shawne Williams did less than squat for us, by taking up time doing nothing.
2. Cartier Martin flirted, but didn't deliver...pissed me off because he was a FA signing! Those guys have nifty monikers though, Shawne and Cartier.
3. John Lucas III is a guy that was doomed from the get go; I wish him well because of the gamesmanship and professionalism he showed while here, but his days are done in the "D."
4. Tayshaun Prince, "The Palace Prince!" He's moving on, but I'm glad I got a chance to see him perform in a Pistons uniform one last time and we got a chance to thank him for days gone by...I hope he appreciated it.

I truly believe that if SVG and Bower can bring this mindset into play and act on it before the draft, not only will the draft go well, but the approach to FA won't be as haphazard as it was last summer, and we'll see not only a different team next fall, but a more competitive group of young men learning to play on both ends of the floor with more efficiency and effectiveness.
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Don, keep beating that drum...

Post  Oracle on Mon Apr 20, 2015 1:43 pm

http://www.mlive.com/pistons/index.ssf/2015/04/detroit_pistons_2014-15_review.html wrote:But the thing that gnawed at him most was defense, with the Pistons allowing 99.5 points per game, and 106.4 points per 100 possessions, which ranked 14th and 19th in the league, respectively.

That with a coach who had exceptional defenses previously in his career, and with a center in Drummond who should evolve into an elite rim protector but hasn't yet.

"Where I haven't really done a good job -- where I guess I'm most disappointed with myself -- is we have not come as far defensively as we should have come at this point," Van Gundy said. "And I think if you look at the teams who have made big jumps from one year to the next, whether it's Atlanta from 38 wins to where they are now, whether it's Milwaukee and the jumps they've made, those teams have made big jumps defensively in what they've done, and we need to do the same thing next year."

Van Gundy called defense "the number-one thing we have to improve," and lamented how easily it was for opponents to score in the lane.

"Part of it is on the perimeter guys getting beaten off the dribble too easily," he said. "Part of it is in our pick-and-roll defense, both the guards and the bigs, and the people on the back side of it. And part of it is on our bigs for not helping early enough and often enough."



Don, I wouldn't give up on where they're going after one season of a new coach and system, and a super green rookie GM without a full staff in place at the start of the season!

SVG, unlike Joe(in his later years), is very clear about where he's going and what he needs to get done! That Reggie Jackson move showed me that they're on their "A" game when it counts, that was one very forward looking move!

Drummond is learning EVERYTHING, and it was a mistake for all of us to see the base talent and overlook the fact that he was as raw as they come, and would need years of development, like most big men do!

Drummond couldn't win for losing this year! Folks complained when he left his man to help, and criticized him when he stayed with his man instead of helping! The fact is that instinct(read experience) will allow him to know when to leave, when not to, and when to cheat and scare defenders... but it's all experience, coaching and hard work!

But IMO, winning cures a lot of ills as we saw this season during the Jennings streak! Guys you hadn't seen play hard in years were out there playing like demons in crunch time! You're seeing that in the playoffs for a lot of reasons, but the main reasons are,

1. There's something to really play for, and players will step up!
2. The entire league and people across the planet are watching, and you better show well in the spotlight!

I know you know that these things make a big difference, even in college, players respond to nationally televised games more than local games, it's human nature for all but the super stars whose performance is more even, but it's still a driver.

I said all of that to say that the future is bright, we're in the best shape in years to have a stellar offseason... rejoice!
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Article "Quit Pretending Greg Monroe Was Ever The Problem"

Post  cool breeze on Mon Apr 20, 2015 10:32 am

I like Go Stones post much better than the article from True Hoops. Monroe of course was never the problem. All of the players on the team were the problem. But Monroe was never the solution either. I agree with every weakness that Go Stones has identified about Monroe relating to his fit with the Pistons. My anger relating to lack of leadership and smart decision making by our owners and their management teams comes when I compare their decision making on how to build a team compared to most of the playoff teams. Our owner and management teams can only be classified as idiots. There is no plan. Our management seems only to react and not be able to see ahead. Take the big man Banes who plays for San Antonio. How in hell did the Spurs get him? That team has been on the top of the heap for a long time. It should be very difficult for them to secure new blood that actually can contribute. We see this going on with other teams throughout the league. Meanwhile, we fans are left to discuss the merits of Greg Monroe and Andre Drummond. Neither player have ever been known in their entire lives as winning type players. What do we have in Andre Drummond? We have a really bad free throw shooter, extremely weak or dumb defender, and a guy who can dunk the basketball. I am not trying to poke fun at Drummond. But this is our best player? Is that possible after 7 years that Drummond would be our smartest and best overall player? And Tom Gores is still trying to sell snake oil coming out with the statement that Drummond is a max player. Oh really so what is going to happen next year when we see the hack A Drummond strategy used by every NBA team when they really need to win a game against us? Drummond has slipped back from awful the previous year to terrible this season shooting free throws. So does a light bulb come on in anyone's brain yet that this guy is not interested in improving his free throw percentage? Josh Smith has signed a big contract with the Pistons and he can't make a free throw to save his life either. So why should Drummond make any effort to improve in that area? Meanwhile, other teams move on and somehow find big young players like Banes who run the court hard, bang other centers on defense and fight like hell on every possession. Are the Spurs talking about a max contract for Banes? I am only mentioning this player because I see more upside in him than I do in Monroe or Drummond. Who is a fighter? Who hates to lose and will do anything to win? Who doesn't really give a crap and doesn't mind faking it 50% of the time? We Piston fans have been watching too many players over the past 7 seasons who are not all in. Either that or our players are just inferior to other players and somehow our management has the weird habit of picking those players who are all specialists. Our management says, well lets see this guy can shoot the rock from beyond the three point line. He can't match up on defense with anybody but damn his jump shot looks good. Has this player ever been a key player on any team? Oh that doesn't matter we don't care if he is a basketball player who can defend anyone. We need a shooter. We need a stretch 4. Oh maybe we can sucker some fans into believing that Quincy Miller will be a stud in the NBA. I think they will buy that. Have any of you watched Miller on defense yet? That is why is doesn't get playing time. Do any of you believe that Van Gundy wants to play two old worn out players at small forward during a rebuild?

I don't see a plan yet to create a winning team for the Detroit Pistons. All I hear about is that Greg Monroe is not the problem. He is part of the problem. Other free agents have not lined up in the past to come to Detroit to play with Monroe have they? Remember when Monroe was our franchise player like Gores is now saying about Drummond? Are any established players lining up to play with Drummond? No the other NBA players who know what they are doing all know that Drummond doesn't know crap about playing basketball the right way. Drummond can't play defense. Drummond can't make free throws. Drummond often forgets where he is supposed to be on the floor. He is a kid with potential and that is it. Meanwhile, players not given any consideration with the exception of winning teams like the Spurs ignore players similar to Banes and several others who often get the best of both Monroe and Drummond simply because of their work ethic and will to get better.

I am done for now and haven't even mentioned Meeks who cannot guard many playoff 2 guards. Is he the problem? What I am trying to point out here is that our Pistons are so damn bad that we can only discuss average or below average NBA players because that is all we have now.

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Moose

Post  Go Stones! on Sun Apr 19, 2015 10:32 pm

I enjoy the discussion about Monroe...2 inch vertical and all. It's not that I hate Monroe, but this is what I dislike:

1. 2 inch vertical
2. no killer attitude...think Okafor (Larry Brown has been quoted saying Okafor "gets an A+ in stretching".
3. He is NOT a PF!
4. Has lazy tendencies
5. He has NO range!
6. Not a good matchup with Dre
7. FT% is still not good.

Having said that, I will admit that anyone averaging over 10 rebounds a game alongside Dre is a true stud. (No, I'm not running for politial office).

Here is how I would proceed if I were SVG. Offer him a max contract. He is worth it....according to many of the other teams! If he takes it, great! If he doesn't, great!

Be patient with me....the problem is that if we don't have Monroe...do you really think we will attract any other stud Stretch 4 PF? NO! We will have to draft a rookie to take his place. That rookie will need to learn and adjust to the NBA and not jump right into the starting spot.

The only other way to get a great PF is to trade. This is why I would offer him a max contract. Here are a few scenarios afte signing Monroe to a max deal:

1. Draft a PF and let Moose fill the void until the rookie is ready. Then trade Moose at the deadline...or sooner.
2. Trade Moose in the future once you know of someone who would need a center and has a good PF offer.

Why would teams want Monroe? Well, based on max contracts this summer, the next summer and beyond will be astronomical! Everyone will try to get a max contract in the summer of 2016. So, Monroe will look like a very cheap quality center and highly coveted.

This is a business. Once we get him at a good price, you will see SVG fine-tune along the way. He has proven that he has no problem trading or waiving players. I love it!

If we don't keep Monroe, it is going to be tough getting anything close to Monroe wanting to come to Detroit. Especially after not posting a good record this year.

An aside, I'd also go after Draymond Green for SF. He would be GREAT and SVG would love his defense. He just may be playing us to offer max so that GSW has to match. I'm not sure GSW can afford him on max contract, however. They already have 78M on the books for next year. You just can't afford max contracts for all starters.

I'm wondering if Gores would suck it up and take a financial hit and go over the cap in order to get what is necessary when the cap increases in the summer of 2016. He could get his players now at a seeminly high price, but would look frugal after the cap rises.

Keep up the good dialogue! I'd love to hear your thoughts on this angle.
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Seb, Merc & Don

Post  Oracle on Sun Apr 19, 2015 8:41 pm

@Seb - Dre and KCP and maybe Quincy Miller? Yes Dre & KCP, and even QM, mostly because he's young, cheap, and may develop, but what about Reggie Jackson? Do you want a team next season with PG Unknown? The dude is an assist machine greater than Jennings was, with assist numbers that have him in the top 5-8 in the league. Finishes great at the rim, and can get you close to 20ppg on most nights with limited talent around him.

@Merc - Half Full is a great way to put it! IMO, it's amazing that we went .500 after Josh with losing Jennings, then trading JJ, Singler & Augustin to disrupt chemistry, lose 10 straight before we righted the ship! IMO, you have to give credit to SVG for building a culture that absorbed the shock and came back strong. What that tells me is that we can get a new infusion of talent, and the current players can ease them into the system much better this next go round!

@Don - I'm happy for JJ as well, but as you said, the Boston coach is doing an amazing coaching job, but Ainge is doing an amazing GM job, and is the TRUE invisible hand behind this success! SVG has made some HUGE mistakes as GM! First he overvalued Josh, because that Kings trade was there for the taking, and it would have netted us Isiah Thomas. Then failing to make the trade, he went after Thomas, and could have got him, but decided that Meeks was the one to throw money at. Isiah finally went to Phoenix for next to nothing, and less than we paid for Meeks... that was malpractice!

Then he turns around and overvalues Monroe!!! He had the power to just move his ass, and instead of accepting the best deal available, he wanted what Monroe thought he was worth... bad move! IMO, he's also overvaluing Butler & Toliver!

But hey, we get to see Charlie V play for the Mavericks and the NBA Champion Austin Daye(yes, he has a ring) play on the Eastern Conference Champion Hawks!

Obviously the fickle finger of fate has been placed squarely up the Pistons ass!
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Take another look at Jonas Jerebco Mr. Van Gundy - Leadership unable to use players properly

Post  cool breeze on Sun Apr 19, 2015 7:59 pm

Watching Jerebco today sickens me and makes me feel that once again another Piston management team is out to lunch. Jerebco never stopped moving. He kept Boston in the game when things were going bad in the 3rd quarter. He was setting perfect screens, moving without the basketball, driving to the rim and playing really tough defense for Boston. Please tell me Stan why Jerebco was sitting at the end of the bench so much while Tolliver was just jacking up long range jump shots and missing most of the time? Jerebco is a basketball player. We have specialists on this Piston roster. That is the problem. I felt as if our Pistons would turn things around when we had Jerebco and Singler on the team. They both played the same way. They were basketball players. However, this coach,GM and President insisted on clogging up the middle with two big men who we cannot call real basketball players. Drummond and Monroe do not set good screens, move well without the basketball and they cannot put the ball on the floor and drive to the hoop when a defensive player over plays them. When it comes to playing defense Monroe and Drummond are minor league players. I am now agreeing with those fans who believe that if Van Gundy had released Monroe or traded him and kept Smith and had not made any trades at all, we would have a better team next season. There is no question about it. That is a fact. We need players like Jerebco and Singler. Then we need two outstanding skill players who can score consistently as well as at least one big man who can defend and is quick to the ball relating to defensive rebounding. How many times have I read some of the alleged experts say that Van Gundy has upgraded the talent. What a damn lie. Is Tolliver an upgrade. The Suns had him sitting on their bench. He couldn't defend and was considered a specialist outside shooter type guy. Before the trades went down all to get Jackson, we had a good point guard who was playing outstanding basketball with Augustin. We had the best 3 point shooter on the team in Singler who was also one of those players who is team orientated and can do a lot of things for the team. And we had Jerebco who Van Gundy screwed messed with a lot playing mental games with him jerking him whenever he made one mistake. Meanwhile, Drummond and monroe could get away with murder on the court as far as messing up the defense, clogging the middle because all they did was stand around, and never boxed out on defense which allowed opponents several opportunities each possession if they did miss a shot. They didn't miss many because our big men put up little to no resistance when opposing players entered the painted area. The big problem on this team was our big men all season long and the season before that and the season before that. Our big men didn't give the necessary effort when it counted especially during those long losing streaks. We fans are supposed to be proud and feel lucky that we have have had Monroe and Drummond. WOW look where that has gotten the Detroit Pistons. We need basketball players not specialist who can build up meaningless stats. Laimbeer was a basketball players. He fought for those tough defensive rebounds like the players who play power forward and center are doing in all the playoff series. How Stan Van Gundy could sit Jonas Jerebco so much during this season is criminal.

I am sure happy that Jonas is getting an opportunity with the Celtics. What a job their coach and GM have done to create their current team. In this game, the Labron Rules were in place once again. James can get away with anything on defense.

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Re: FORUM

Post  merc on Sun Apr 19, 2015 2:03 pm

I guess my glass is half full... I see improvements in several areas... we should not expect to go from 29 wins to a playoff contender in year one... as Oracle pointed out the team was .500 post Josh era... that's the team we have going into next year with solid cap room, a nice pick and hopefully a quality trade asset (Jennings).... even more significant is the team will not have to learn a new system under a proven coach.
IMO Monroe moving on will be addition by subtraction.... assuming we add a stretch 4 Andre will realize his potential while our wings will have room to get inside.
It should take some time for the new talent to gel but it won't be the 60% turnover like this year... expecting to see a nice bump after the allstar break (providing GM SVG doesn't mess things up).
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The NBA Playoffs ...

Post  Sebastian on Sun Apr 19, 2015 12:33 pm

A place, where WE have not been for 7 years and when WE were in the Playoffs, then, WE were 39-43 and got swept by the first edition of the LeBron Cavs.

WE were all Losers, this past season: 32-50 is a really bad record. This season was like a lot of recycle garbage, the only two guys that are worth keeping on the roster are Dre and KCP and maybe Quincy Miller, if stubborn ass Stan would play the kid.

GM Stan has a lot of work ahead of him. It has got to be Playoffs in '15-'16 or the team will be sold to the Seattle investors, if WE don't make it next season.

The 2015-2016 season is going to be pivotal.

Oracle wrote:

  1. While we ended up with a pretty bad record, we played .500 ball after moving Josh, and including the loss of Jennings and the trade that upset chemistry two times.
  2. We suffered 3 major changes that would doom a better team, referring to the Josh/Jennings/Jackson earthquakes that hit us.
  3. SVG did a spectacular job considering the actual talent and experience level of the players


If Jennings doesn't get hurt, this team is in the playoffs. If Jackson bonded quicker, we're in the playoffs. However, If there was no Josh, we're likely a 5th/6th seed... with little talent in supporting roles and little experience in the skill positions.

In short, this season was a success no matter how you look at it in terms of moving this franchise forward, and not to mention the biggie!

SVG has successfully changed the CULTURE!!! IMO, we have limited need for so many grizzled vets because the core group now knows how to win and play together!

New players will get the culture from them... we're seriously on the way back! Now all we need is decent talent infused into the core!

So in all fairness, the predictions are less binding than you would expect, but either way, the closest and the winner is Sebastian!

Congrats Sebastian, you're the reigning prediction champion!
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More news on the draft status of Stanley Johnson

Post  cool breeze on Sun Apr 19, 2015 11:06 am

Johnson is still listed as the Pistons pick on some draft boards. He only has a short time now to announce if he is staying in college or going. Johnson is seriously considering staying in college according to his high school coach. First off, Johnson is a good student and likes the academics and college life. 2nd he hates losing when playing basketball. This past season he didn't get to show his true talent much of the time because he had to play the 2 guard position. Also, he played with Randae Hollis Jefferson and Brandon Ashley. Both men clogged the painted area on offense. Jefferson played small forward but had limitations on offense because he couldn't hit jump shots with any range. Sean Miller has commented on the problems with the Arizona offense which were never solved. Next year if Johnson stays he would go back to his natural position - small forward and would have a chance to become a top 2 or 3 pick. And Johnson is still only 18 years. Johnson might also stay because a high profile guard has signed with Arizona, Alonzo Trier.

I believe he would be a big upgrade for our Pistons next season if he decides to go pro now. He already has the offensive tools necessary to become a great NBA small forward and he is athletic enough to become a solid defender. The best part of Stanley Johnson is his mind. He likes learning and working hard on improvement. It would be difficult to pass up the money now but he is not the typical one and done college guy. His mother wants him to stay in college.

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Re: FORUM

Post  cool breeze on Sun Apr 19, 2015 10:51 am

Oracle wrote:I mostly agree with you about the Pistons, but I do think that KCP, Drummond, Monroe, Prince, Reggie Jackson and Meeks would all be rotation players, just not starters on SOME of the playoff teams.

But why that surprises you or anyone else is a bit surprising to me, because I saw very few teams that were that good playing!

Almost the entire Buck team couldn't start on a decent playoff team... seriously!

I still don't buy the Raptors as being too much!

As a matter of fact, all I saw was a bunch of flawed teams playing, and this playoffs so far, pales in comparison to last years playoffs!

IMO, the Cavs look, by far, to be the best team in the league if they play their game! They are capable of playing any way required to win, big, small, fast, slow, nobody else can do that right now!

Our Pistons are learning, and we do need an infusion of talent, but I don't see us being any lower than the average NBA team, and certainly good enough to get into the playoffs in the east!

I can only hope that you are right and I am wrong about our players. The Bucks are young but they are athletic and they do play defense. That is how they made the playoffs. I am concerned about our big men allowing so many 2nd-3rd and 4th opportunities to their opponents all season long. Neither Drummond or Monroe ever attempt to box out anyone. They have experienced a lot of coaching over the years. Any high school basketball player at any position has the fundamentals down that neither of our big men even care about. And Pope allowed dribble penetration and back cuts more this season than last. Van Gundy has pointed that out in his post game interviews. Our players as a group are extremely weak defensive players. This is the culture Joe Dumars built. It will take time to reverse this trend on the Pistons that has gone on over the past 6 years or so. Meeks and Tolliver are also below average defenders. They will both be on the team for awhile. Where are the stud defensive players? We need a few.

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Don, I had a different reaction...

Post  Oracle on Sun Apr 19, 2015 6:21 am

I mostly agree with you about the Pistons, but I do think that KCP, Drummond, Monroe, Prince, Reggie Jackson and Meeks would all be rotation players, just not starters on SOME of the playoff teams.

But why that surprises you or anyone else is a bit surprising to me, because I saw very few teams that were that good playing!

Almost the entire Buck team couldn't start on a decent playoff team... seriously!

I still don't buy the Raptors as being too much!

As a matter of fact, all I saw was a bunch of flawed teams playing, and this playoffs so far, pales in comparison to last years playoffs!

IMO, the Cavs look, by far, to be the best team in the league if they play their game! They are capable of playing any way required to win, big, small, fast, slow, nobody else can do that right now!

Our Pistons are learning, and we do need an infusion of talent, but I don't see us being any lower than the average NBA team, and certainly good enough to get into the playoffs in the east!
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Watching real basketball today makes me realize how low our Piston franchise has sunk

Post  cool breeze on Sat Apr 18, 2015 11:41 pm

Do we really have more than one player who could make the rotation as a guy coming off the bench on any of the current playoff teams that played today? I think maybe only Jackson would get any minutes with the exception of a blow out game. And I read an ESPN magazine which rated Jackson the 25th best point guard in the NBA this year.

What is the current requirement for any successful playoff team that somehow Joe Dumars forgot about? DEFENSE is the key for teams to be able to stay in NBA ball games. A lot of us were saying that years ago when Joe Dumars signed Charlie V and Ben Gordon. You need at least 8 good players to be successful in the playoffs. On any of the current playoff teams, which coach could trust Drummond?s He cannot focus on defense. Andre misses so many rotation adjustments he would have to sit on the bench like he did this last summer for the American team. Drummond did not improve his defense this year and shot worse from the foul line than he did the previous season. People say Drummond is our franchise player. Andre might get better but he is years away from really understanding what a playoff team needs from him. We fans are trying to figure out how Monroe would or would not fit but I can't see how he wouldn't hurt any of the current playoff teams right now. He is too slow to keep up. The start of the playoffs shows that all the teams have kicked up the pace of play incredibly. Every player is giving maximum effort. Our Piston big men have given up more second chance points than any NBA team this season. Why does that happen when our big men have such large bodies? Watch Anthony Davis move his feet and work his ass off on defense. He loves it! Our big men do not love playing defense. They have never had to play tough smart defense so they don't know any better. Davis has always loved to block shots. I watch Toronto and Washington which are two of the up and coming Eastern conference teams. Those teams are playing much differently now then they did in the regular season.

Van Gundy must understand that he doesn't have players right now who will ever be good enough to play at the highest level needed to win in the playoffs or even make the playoffs. He must draft the best overall athletes regardless of position. Stan must somehow find several hidden gems among the young NBA players who are currently not getting much playing time and are just in the wrong situation. We do not have many gems right now. I think that most of our players are playing at the highest level they may ever be capable of playing at. Our players did give a strong effort this season. And our guys are losing big time in regular season games when playoff players are not really going all out. Detroit won a bunch of games at the end of the season but in almost every game, the opponent was not playing at a high level like they do in the playoffs. Oracle wrote an article about all the players who at one time played for the Pistons who are now on good NBA teams. Maybe that is so, but players like Charlie V were a cancer to our team when they wore the Piston uniform. Now Charlie is hungry. He showed his true colors when he played for the Pistons with that big contract but was always the last player back on defense even though he stood out beyond the 3 point line on offense. My question was how could Joe Dumars allow that to happen? Players took advantage of Joe and he allowed it to happen and created a culture of lazy ass losing basketball and fed the press stories about how bad the coaches were instead of facing up to the fact that he signed the wrong players. Now Stan Van Gundy needs to sign the right players and put the Detroit Pistons back on the map. It will take years for that to happen.

Sit back and enjoy real NBA basketball because we sure didn't see much of it watching our team perform this year.

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Step back, take a good look, and be honest

Post  deusXango on Sat Apr 18, 2015 11:57 am

Every scenario I've read, the underlying inference is to position Monroe in the best position to be paid the most he can get and/or somehow strong arm him into signing with us for this possible imaginary future trade, that may or may not be there, so we can get something for him.

#1. What's he done for Detroit in 5 years that's so important that we would covet him to the point that he'd be SVG's ongoing top priority and we act in his behalf to guarantee the highest possible salary?
#2. What makes anyone think that after the sacrifice of his top payment potential for a year, by signing the Q.O. (that his agent, David Falk, talked him into) to obtain UFA status so he could sign elsewhere, without interference from Detroit, he'd re-sign with the Pistons, only to possibly lose his control over where he'd play, if/when he was traded? What'll that do to Falk's credibility as a "super agent" with his clients, now and future?
#3. Outside of Detroit and the love coming from New York, where's the trade value of Monroe been established? What's the guarantee that we'll be able to trade Monroe for anyone/anything of value, if SVG is as truly enamoured over him as he says, and the evolution of the game doesn't make his skillset more obsolete? Remember, there's no such thing as centers (for All-Star voting) anymore, and with big men such as Cousins, Drummond, Howard, Davis, Horford, Aldridge, Love, Bosh, Ibaka, Noah, to name some who have consistently outplayed Monroe already, and the untried/unproven young'uns coming into the game that have skills that'll present huge challenges for Monroe like, Towns, Okafor, Porzingis, Lyles, Kaminsky, Portis, and others flying under the radar, will we be stuck with the Moose because of overvaluing once again?

What pisses me off the most, however, is this; all while this unnecessary cluster f@ck is going on with Monroe, Drummond is not receiving the full benefits/opportunities this franchise can offer him, to develop into the for real cornerstone of the Pistons. At this point I'm not willing to concede that Monroe is a better candidate to be "the man" than Drummond is. 14/14 vs. 16/10 are the numbers today, but at 21 years old, how long before Drummond surpasses Monroe on both ends of the floor? Who's the better fit playing with Jackson? Jackson ain't the best PG in the NBA, but I can see him blooming into an All-Star level guard, and Drummond ain't the best big man at defense or FT shooting, but he's one of the best big men in the league at what he does; they don't need to be held back by a sub 20 point scorer, who's the hub of our offense, but be complemented by a sub 20 point scorer who can "catch up and keep up" by simply fitting in, and max money for a "fit in" is ridiculous!
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Reality check for Piston fans - make sure you read the "Final Regular Season Grades" from Bleacher Report

Post  cool breeze on Sat Apr 18, 2015 11:45 am

I dispute the grade received relating to Tolliver and Jennings but other than that, the grades appear accurate. TOLLIVER was not a consistent accurate 3 point shooter and he could not match up well on defense with many power forwards. I would not bet the farm on his ability to get much better either. He did have some great moments but the bottom line is that he cannot be considered to be a solid playoff type player for the future. JENNINGS really did transform himself after Josh Smith was released that is on the offensive end of the floor. But Jennings would be a huge defensive liability on defense if our Pistons ever make the playoffs. That is the time when the opposing team exploits every possible weakness and Jennings defense was still a big weakness during crunch time situations. Jennings is also a high risk and high reward type of player who takes a lot of low percentage shots. I like Jackson's chances of becoming a better all around starting point guard on a winning type team. But Jennings has another season to prove himself but it would be doubtful if Jennings would return if he was able to bolt to a team out West.

With all the negative stuff written about Kyle SINGLER, it was Kyle who proved that he was the best 3 point shooter once again as he was the previous season. Once he left the team, fans started to notice how he affected the offense with his screens and his ability to get physical as he ran through the painted area to open up our big guys for easy shots. And Singler was a smart defensive player who helped out our two big men who continue to this day to make simple mistakes with defensive rotations.

The weakness pointed out in the article is true about DRUMMOND. He is not a good defender and his free throw percentage actually went down this season rather than up. That is not a good sign. What did he work on in the off season? How can a team win if their best player makes stupid mistakes or lacks the will to move his feet on defense???? The team can't win of their best player gets outsmarted consistently on defense. Does he really care about being a good defender?

POPE has potential but has not proven that he can improve well enough to become a solid starting 2 guard. He is too up and down from night to night to be part of a winning team. The article pointed out some serious issues I noticed with Pope not only with his inaccurate shooting but his defense. He has mental lapses like allowing back door cuts etc.. But he now has two years of experience as a pro and is only 22 years old. He could excel next season forming great chemistry with Jackson.

The subject of Monroe is interesting. It doesn't seem as if Van Gundy will be able to secure a solid power forward who has NBA experience if Monroe parts ways with the Pistons. Perhaps Monroe could become a better outside shooter but will never be a 3 point threat. He will always be a liability on defense playing power forward. It would be crazy to throw a lot of money his way if he is not part of a future winning playoff team. Plus he is likely to get a much better deal elsewhere so it seems pretty clear that Monroe will not be part of the Pistons future even though our team most likely will not win enough games next season because of the lack of a good power forward who can play defense well enough to make up for Drummond's lackluster defensive mindset.

The Pistons without Monroe might make the playoffs and be very exciting at times and could play close to 500% basketball. But without a good bench and good starters at power forward and small forward, it will be a struggle all season long to pull out games in crunch time. Everyone will need to stay healthy and play extremely hard and also have a lot of luck. Our number one draft pick is going to be huge this season relating to how many wins our Pistons can get next season.

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Re: FORUM

Post  cool breeze on Sat Apr 18, 2015 11:18 am

Oracle wrote:
merc wrote:Oracle... luved the post about ex Piston scrubs finding their ticket on playoff teams... when you think about it some of these guys may have been career D-Leagers if they were drafted by a playoff team.

On Monroe coming back for two years, I couldn't disagree more... we've seen what the clog machine translates to in wins and losses... then there's Dre given the chance to be the scoring option inside with room to do so.... this will only happen with a PF with range and defense (no more Drummond on a island without help).
The only way I can support signing Monroe is for one year with the idea of trading him for a talented wing

I'm not going to argue against what you said, I fully agree, and I like your 1 year deal even better!

I said it was the best I'd heard, but the bottom line to me is that we have a problem next year at the starting PF position, it's the biggest unknown!

We have to have a plan that buys us time to develop a rookie... IF we draft one.

Hell, SVG may have his mind on getting Johnson, keeping Butler, and calling SF settled, then try to pay bigger bucks for a proven stretch 4... who knows?

But that's the value of throwing stuff against the wall. It fosters ideas I didn't have, and hopefully we'll get more!

Oracle there is no guarantee that Stan Johnson will make himself eligible for this draft. He has not yet declared and has indicated that he is still very upset with Arizona's loss to Wisconsin and his overall performance in the NCAA tournament. He has never been on a team that has not won a championship. Arizona won the PAC12 and the PAC12 tournament but he has stated that it sickens him to have not win the NCAA tournament. He most likely will not be able to turn down the money in this draft but sees himself as a top 2 pick which won't happen this year. So far two other Arizona players have declared for the draft but so far not Johnson.

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You All Know How I Feel On This

Post  WTF on Sat Apr 18, 2015 10:15 am

I wouldn't bring his Moose's ass back under any circumstance because it does nothing for the team period. 1year, 2 years and years would be years wasted. Yeah I rah rah Josh and I still do though he's no longer here but that 44 prediction I made would have been more probable had we kept Josh and shipped out Moose ass instead even with all the bad **** most could say and he was a problem just not the problem that honors goes to Moose sorry ass.
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Merc

Post  Oracle on Sat Apr 18, 2015 7:07 am

merc wrote:Oracle... luved the post about ex Piston scrubs finding their ticket on playoff teams... when you think about it some of these guys may have been career D-Leagers if they were drafted by a playoff team.

On Monroe coming back for two years, I couldn't disagree more... we've seen what the clog machine translates to in wins and losses... then there's Dre given the chance to be the scoring option inside with room to do so.... this will only happen with a PF with range and defense (no more Drummond on a island without help).
The only way I can support signing Monroe is for one year with the idea of trading him for a talented wing

I'm not going to argue against what you said, I fully agree, and I like your 1 year deal even better!

I said it was the best I'd heard, but the bottom line to me is that we have a problem next year at the starting PF position, it's the biggest unknown!

We have to have a plan that buys us time to develop a rookie... IF we draft one.

Hell, SVG may have his mind on getting Johnson, keeping Butler, and calling SF settled, then try to pay bigger bucks for a proven stretch 4... who knows?

But that's the value of throwing stuff against the wall. It fosters ideas I didn't have, and hopefully we'll get more!
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Re: FORUM

Post  merc on Fri Apr 17, 2015 10:07 pm

Oracle... luved the post about ex Piston scrubs finding their ticket on playoff teams... when you think about it some of these guys may have been career D-Leagers if they were drafted by a playoff team.

On Monroe coming back for two years, I couldn't disagree more... we've seen what the clog machine translates to in wins and losses... then there's Dre given the chance to be the scoring option inside with room to do so.... this will only happen with a PF with range and defense (no more Drummond on a island without help).
The only way I can support signing Monroe is for one year with the idea of trading him for a talented wing
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How to make the NBA Playoffs the hard way!

Post  Oracle on Fri Apr 17, 2015 8:48 pm

It's simple!

Get on the Pistons, get trashed because you can't play. Get traded and BOOM, you're in the playoffs!!!

Just ask...

1. Charlie Villanueva
2. Jonas Jerebko
3. Luigi Datome
4. Khris Middleton
5. Will Bynum, now with the Wizards
6. Josh Smith
7. Austin Daye, now with the Hawks

Hell, how can you go wrong getting cut by the Pistons lol lol lol
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Absolute BEST reason I've seen to keep Monroe!!

Post  Oracle on Fri Apr 17, 2015 8:37 pm

http://www.mlive.com/pistons/index.ssf/2015/04/ask_david_all_your_detroit_pis.html wrote:But there's no maybe about how Van Gundy regards the day-to-day life with Monroe. "I'm a big fan," Van Gundy said on the last day of the season. He meant every word. The question may be whether he's a big enough fan to offer a fat contract for two years with an opt-out clause in 2016. Just guessing, but that may be the only reason Monroe would stay, so that he could sign his real long-term deal after the salary cap explodes -- here, or elsewhere. If you're the Pistons, that might even be tempting. Even if Monroe did opt out in 2016, he could address a major need next season, and the Pistons could go shopping on the open market in 2017, when the cap explodes and the impact of the stretch payments to Smith is mitigated.

This would be a VERY tempting reason to keep Monroe for 2 years, draft Kaminisky, and you've got two years to groom him or broom him in 2017!

I could really live with that because it eliminates a sh!t load of potential issues replacing players if Monroe moves on! As Don pointed out, the players we really want are restricted FA's, and while it's possible to get them via trade, it's less likely! This could buy us the time to get the position settled while bringing another PF along, then in 2017, with the larger CAP, we would have a better chance to make a good move!

Of course this is all speculation, but it's interesting speculation, and IMO, Monroe may have a hard time finding any team that wants to tie up max money in him right now, but when it comes to big men, who knows!
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Re: FORUM

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