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Two amazing comebacks last night!

Post  Oracle on Fri Apr 24, 2015 2:02 pm

The Bulls came back from a 18 point deficit to beat the hapless Bucks! That was a great game, with Middleton hitting some HUGE shots to get the Bucks into OT, but they just didn't have enough to put away the Bulls.

Then the Warriors come back from more than 20 down in the 4th quarter!!! I actually dozed off on this one when it looked like there was no way the Warriors could win, and woke up to catch the last 5 minutes. Simply Amazing collapse by the Pelicans!!!
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I've got some great ideas on that note

Post  Oracle on Fri Apr 24, 2015 1:55 pm

DX, this isn't about love for Monroe, it's business logic, and with that said, it will always come down to a tradeoff.

Keeping Monroe is the obvious smart move business and actually organization wise, if you have an argument to counter that, I'm open to changing my mind.

But the tradeoff is this: Does Monroe's flaws override the business benefits?

This is where opinion can differ, which is why I believe you ignore the business side and respond the way you do, but it was hard for me to understand you since you don't separate the two issues.

BTW, the way you describe SVG's organization, it looks like they make decisions athletically, as shown below.

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Tim Duncan pt. 2

Post  deusXango on Fri Apr 24, 2015 11:32 am

Sebastian wrote:No Breaking News, here: Tim Duncan is simply the best damn PF to ever and I mean ever play the game. His longevity, consistency, and professional demeanor is unmatched by anyone PF that has become before or after him.

And, the dude played 4 years in college.

Happy 39th Birthday (tomorrow) to the man who has no equal.

Moose can only dream to become as good as Timmy.
Sebastian, I agree 100% on this post about Tim Duncan, the most fundamentally sound basketball player IMHO to have played, during my personal watching as a fan. I joked about signing him, but truth be told, if he wanted to continue playing, I'd take him over Moose any day of the week.

That 4 year college player, who's fundamentally sound, is the main reason I campaign so hard for Kaminsky; I think the man will turn out to be special on the NBA level, after all, who knew Kevin Love would do as well as he has coming out of U.C.L.A.?
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I've got some great ideas on that note

Post  deusXango on Fri Apr 24, 2015 11:24 am

Since everyone from the casual fan on up to Stan Van Gundy, President of The Detroit Pistons, is into tying up todays assets on man love based hopes and dreams, consider this.

Re-sign Greg Monroe for whatever he wants, because it'll be a drop in the bucket once the CAP goes up, and then we can trade him for some valuable assets. Sounds good and makes sense doesn't it?

Let Reggie Jackson walk because we've got Jennings under contract and don't want to loose him (particularly after that great stretch before his injury), plus Reggie turned down 4/$48 in OKC (doesn't matter it was backup money, anymore than it matters the CAP is going up) and he has all sorts of blemishes to his game....too numerous to mention.

Let's bring back Rodney Stuckey because we need a sound veteran presence in the locker room and a top reliable scorer on the floor. He should never have been let go and forced to sign that sh!t contract in Indiana, SVG didn't know anything about Stuckey, not from experience.

We need an intelligent, do-all player, who's a great defender, on this team. We sorely need a high percentage shooter on the perimeter, because we sucked there, so while we're into nostalgia, bring back Singler! Weren't Singler and Stuckey tearing it up off the bench a couple of years ago?

Hold onto F@ckin' Jodie Meeks at all costs because he's going to do great things, now that he's healthy, and he's allowed to start at SG. KCP is so damn inconsistent, but Meeks could be the man to set the scoring tone. He finished the season at 100%; if he starts the season at 100%, how will he finish? Oh well, doesn't matter.

Start KCP at SF and if he doesn't deliver, look to trade him at the deadline! Doesn't matter that he's too light in the ass, SVG has seen more than enough to know what the kid's good for.

Since SVG doesn't know what to do with the #8 pick, trade back into the second round for a couple of picks there, because that's where he's comfortable; Stanley Johnson, Mario Hezonja, Frank Kaminsky, Trey Lyles, decisions, decisions, decisions, who needs that? Let's roll the dice on crap that no one's ever heard of, but family and friends of family.

Kawhi Leonard's not coming here, but let's offer Tim Duncan a max deal and see if he bites; how many 40 year olds are offered a max? We tie up the "Big Fundamental" and make history at the same time....take that Joe Dumars! Duncan's a seasoned PF/C and can backup both Drummond and Monroe.

With a starting lineup of:
PG-Jennings
SG-Meeks
SF-KCP
PF-Monroe
C- Drummond
And a bench of:
Stuckey, Singler, Dinwiddie, Duncan, and a couple of scraps acting as towel wavers, we're guaranteed to struggle to make the 8th seed in the playoffs for years to come. Isn't the playoffs and the 8th seed, or maybe the 6-7 seed, what we fans want? Isn't the excitement of almost getting there intoxicating? And the endless excuses we can make, second guessing, speculating, and sometimes actually arguing; this is not the Pistons basketball I want!! I got a great idea, SVG and Bower, do your damn jobs and do them well!
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Tim Duncan

Post  Sebastian on Fri Apr 24, 2015 10:52 am

No Breaking News, here: Tim Duncan is simply the best damn PF to ever and I mean ever play the game. His longevity, consistency, and professional demeanor is unmatched by anyone PF that has become before or after him.

And, the dude played 4 years in college.

Happy 39th Birthday (tomorrow) to the man who has no equal.

Moose can only dream to become as good as Timmy.

Oracle wrote:Yeah Don, that was the game I've been waiting for, a REAL thriller!

I have little respect for the mentally weak Clippers! There should be no way on earth SA should be able to beat them, and while it's generally Chris Paul that screws up, this time it was Blake "My commercials are better than my game" Griffin!

All he had to do was hold on to the effing ball with 8 seconds left and the game is over!

When he coughed it up, Duncan, who was STELLAR all night, was seen drinking an unmarked bottle of something, and BOOM, he looked 10 years younger!!!

The Clippers are younger, more athletic, but unfortunately dumber than the Spurs! Doc Rivers is in a bad situation, he can't trade Paul or Griffin because the faithful will have a fit, and oddly Jordan has matured a hell of a lot better under Doc!

And Yes, Drummond should be looking at how good footwork actually works, and Monroe needs to see how great a player can be without freak athleticism and average speed! Duncan is simply amazing!!!
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Re: FORUM

Post  merc on Thu Apr 23, 2015 10:28 pm

Sorry about the disrespectful post fellas... was just checking to see if there was a moderator (apparently not)... must just be a bot checking for cuss words... what happened to Flip... didn't he make this site?

A lot of quality post today... a couple made me rethink my own position.
Don, when you think about Andre's FT % I would not be surprised if this didn't cost us 8-10 wins this season (a decent playoff seed).
I'm not as high on Middleton (especially the salary numbers folks are tossing around)... my issue with him is the same thing that hampered Stuckey... tunnel vision... when he touches the ball there is a high probability that he will ignore the open man for his own shot (as does KCP).

Oracle, you make a valid point about Monroe always being a tradeable asset especially with the rising cap over the years... 15mil today being equivalent to 9 mil in the future.... otoh I'd hate to see this drag on without seeing Dre having room to grow in the paint (not far from his own 2nd contract)... I've always thought that Monroe could improve his perimeter offense but this year he regressed and rarely had confidence to try beyond 10 feet... improving his range reminds me of taking a programming language in college... the If/Then statement only goes to "then" if the logic has a reasonable chance... but I can't argue with the fact that we are not a prime FA destination and may have to rely more on trades to achieve the desired results... still, there are more ways to use cap space than free agency
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Re: FORUM

Post  merc on Thu Apr 23, 2015 9:54 pm

Yall don't know sht about basketball... dumb Mf'ers... prolly fell outta yo mama's pssy and landed on your head.
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One last thing on Monroe

Post  Oracle on Thu Apr 23, 2015 8:13 pm

Monroe has shown that he can improve over the offseason. This season we saw a minor but noticeable tick up in his defense, and a very good uptick in his FT shooting.

Even if Monroe's defense fails to improve, if he comes back with a midrange jumper, he instantly becomes a very dangerous player.

If he can hit those shots, he,


  1. Doesn't need to operate so close to the basket all of the time, which helps spacing, and
  2. Operating from the high post makes him a much more dangerous passer, so his assists should rise


I know some hate Monroe and just don't want him, hell, I've been on and off that bus myself. However lately, I've come around to looking at this more objectively, not that others are not objective, just from my perspective I've made a change.

I'm looking at Monroe from a perspective of how can this work until we can really do better! If you look at the situation without any emotion, we simply can't replace him in this offseason, the talent just isn't on the blocks to get! Monroe is here, knows the system, and can produce under the right circumstances, it just wouldn't be good to get rid of him for anything other than a good business or team reason!

DIFFERENT TOPIC: Can you think of anyone that would want Rondo at this point?
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Let me see if I can explain this a bit better...

Post  Oracle on Thu Apr 23, 2015 6:27 pm

Lemonpen wrote:Oracle: I don’t quite understand your Moose solution. It seems like in the event no S&T materializes you want Stan to out bid everyone for Monroe’s services with hope that we can later trade him at a price no one was willing to pay outright. Is this like real estate investment where we look for appreciation over time. I won’t poo-poo the idea cause I NEVER thought Dandy Don Dombrowski could unload Prince.

Let me explain this a bit better,

1. If we do a S&T, it will be either max or near max money for Monroe. I suspect that he won't get the max, and he knows it, but he'll get close, and I do like your thought on the 5 year security blanket(it's likely the reason for his change in tone). That is a good position for us, but it does force us into a situation not of our own making, i.e., we can't orchestrate the deal, and we MUST do it now.

2. If we could sign him to a contract of the same size as he would get, but maybe for 5 years at a lesser amount, we have basically bought an asset that has a known value that we can cash in whenever conditions merit. In short, we grab control of our destiny again, and could turn around and trade him whenever we want and to whoever we want!

I'm thinking strictly from a business perspective, and strictly from a concern for the Pistons, not Monroe!

If it's a 5 year deal, he has the security that even if we do trade him, that contract stays in effect, and that as you said is the REAL value of signing with us, the contract can never change no matter what happens.

We also get the additional advantage that when the CAP rises, his value automatically goes up in trade. Teams will covet getting a big man that's locked up for 5 years at a then reasonable rate.

IMO, it's a win-win!
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BEST NBA GAME OF THE SEASON HAPPENED LAST NIGHT: SPURS-CLIPPERS

Post  Oracle on Thu Apr 23, 2015 6:16 pm

Yeah Don, that was the game I've been waiting for, a REAL thriller!

I have little respect for the mentally weak Clippers! There should be no way on earth SA should be able to beat them, and while it's generally Chris Paul that screws up, this time it was Blake "My commercials are better than my game" Griffin!

All he had to do was hold on to the effing ball with 8 seconds left and the game is over!

When he coughed it up, Duncan, who was STELLAR all night, was seen drinking an unmarked bottle of something, and BOOM, he looked 10 years younger!!!

The Clippers are younger, more athletic, but unfortunately dumber than the Spurs! Doc Rivers is in a bad situation, he can't trade Paul or Griffin because the faithful will have a fit, and oddly Jordan has matured a hell of a lot better under Doc!

And Yes, Drummond should be looking at how good footwork actually works, and Monroe needs to see how great a player can be without freak athleticism and average speed! Duncan is simply amazing!!!
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BEST NBA GAME OF THE SEASON HAPPENED LAST NIGHT: SPURS-CLIPPERS

Post  cool breeze on Thu Apr 23, 2015 5:06 pm

I hope some of you stayed up to watch that game because it was for sure the best game of the playoffs so far and I think the best game of the entire season. The game had every type of drama. Tim Duncan was a machine playing like a 26 year old big man in the first half. They he had some down moments missing a few shots but in crunch time, Duncan was fantastic. Did you watch Tim run full out from free throw line to free throw line when the Spurs were in transition from offense to defense? Every player on both teams gave maximum effort. Some of the passing was incredible on offense. Chris Paul couldn't believe his team lost. This is by far the best series and it is a shame that they are matched up together in the first round. And I must point out that the announcers with Reggie Miller were outstanding. How refreshing to listen to their comments instead of Stan Van Gundy's brother. It is a crime that that announcing crew gets the finals assignment. I actually have to turn off the sound when they are doing games.

Was Andre Drummond watching this game? Did he learn anything from it? Did he watch the foot work of the big men on both teams and especially how Duncan protected the painted area? Did he notice Jordan being intentionally fouled by Spur played? That has to be so embarrassing for any player who goes through that humiliation? Notice that Smith has been singled out as well because he has never learned how to make free throws. Andre Drummond's free throw percentage went down this season. How is that possible? What is going on Andre? Anyone can learn how to make free throws. If Drummond comes back next season shooting free throws like he has been shooting them so far in his career, then he cannot be considered a max type player. Come on Andre hire some high school coach to teach you how to shoot a free throw this summer. Obviously Piston coaches have had no positive effect. I once had a center who couldn't made a free throw in his sophomore season in high school. WE worked out a routine where this player had to make 50 shots in a row two feet from the basket standing straight in front of the rim. Then he had to take one big step back and shoot from that spot 50 more times until he could make 50 in row from there. By the time he made it out to the free throw line, this player was deadly from the line for the rest of his career making clutch free throws at the end of games. Shooting is all confidence based on hard work. If you try to cheat and fail to do the work, you will end up like some of the NBA players who continually miss shots in front of millions of basketball fans. If Andre Drummond can learn how to play incredible defense and make free throws there will be no stopping him from becoming an elite NBA player. If he fails to put in the work, he will be a big disappointment to himself and his Piston fans.

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Re: FORUM

Post  cool breeze on Thu Apr 23, 2015 4:47 pm

Oracle wrote:@DX - Middleton is NOT the superior talent, Knight is! Let's be clear, that is NOT opinion, it's just fact, coupled with NBA stuff that you already know, but aren't applying to this situation. And this is coming from someone that once I saw Middleton shoot the ball, I never stopped saying that he had one of the sweetest strokes I'd seen, and looked at him as a RIP Hamilton type player!

First the fact - Look at the Bucks record after Knight was traded. If they were anywhere near equivalent, they wouldn't have had such a losing record post Knight. He's good, but he can't do what Knight did for the TEAM, but a lot of that is explained by the following.

Positional Advantages: Knight played PG, and by definition, Knight was going to have a much greater TEAM impact than Middleton will ever have! While both have turned out to be the player the Bucks go to in late game situations, it was Knight who came up bigger more often! Middleton doesn't break down defenses like Knight does, and he's not nearly the disruptive force, but like RIP, he does shoot the ball exceptionally well!

The thing we know better than anything else is... WTF was Dumars and Gores thinking when they made that trade???

@Don - Some of the above applies to some of your remarks, I have a few comments on other issues.

Can the Bucks beat the Bulls: Under normal circumstances... they wouldn't even have a chance, the Bucks are a pitifully flawed team right now without Knight! However, the Bulls are not much better as they're trying to integrate Rose, yet again, and you can see how out of sync they are. If the Bulls don't get it together, they won't go far, and yes, could lose this series! We're seeing some crummy ball being played, and that includes the West as well.

SVG on Pistons: I posted something similar to you a few posts down, SVG is all about getting better defensively, and he knows he has the athletic talent to be top 10 if he can coach Jackson, KCP & Drummond to their full potential. SVG is no different than all of us, we all forget how young these players are at times, but we need to remember that! That's why Knight will have to lead in Phoenix, which is what they want him to do. Oddly they have no floor leader there, and Knight commented that he was shocked that with the Bucks, it was defense first, and in Phoenix, defense was an after thought! I'm so glad SVG isn't that DUMB!!!

Monroe, Dumars and Gores, Oh My: They should have given Monroe a max contract, and locked him up for as many years as possible, and we wouldn't be having these problems today, it was a stupid move for the rookie owner... just plain lunacy!

Had they locked up Monroe, just imagine what we would be looking at getting back to trade him!!! It boggles the mind because there are 10+ teams that would want him YESTERDAY... our bargaining power would have been off the charts!

DX said that Joe did little after 2004, but if he did nothing, then why are his draft picks doing so well? Middleton , Prince, Amir, Maxiell, Afflalo, Delfino, Jerebko, Okur, and Delfino to name a few of the ones few people thought were NOT worth drafting, but turned out to be solid NBA players. If you add on the others like Stuckey, Knight, Monroe, Drummond, KCP who have been solid starters, Dumars was damn near a genius at drafting, he obviously has few peers that are anywhere near close, and you can count them on 3 fingers!

Dumars biggest failure is what Gores finally got right! Somebody has to be driving that damn car!!! This is the importance of coaching! You can get all of the talent you want, and if it's not a team composed of Duncan's, LeBron's, Wades, etc., you're going to need a coach to lead these horses to water!

Even the great players need coaching, just less to produce, but even great talent is surrounded by role players that need coaching. Joe for some reason didn't understand this, and that's shocking for a guy coached by the great one, Daly(all praises).


Be careful Oracle there still are a lot of Brandon Knight haters who write on this board. Some are still pissed off when Knight beat out Stuckey for the starting point guard spot. Then Kyle Singler beat Stuckey out when he arrived for the 2 guard spot before he moved to the small forward position.

Was Joe Dumars posting under an assumed name? One poster pointed out that Joe Dumars actually did a great job of drafting based on the amount of players who have become successful in the NBA. The problem is Dumars didn't know or pay enough attention to the fact that those players he drafted actually did have some good potential. he gave most of them away. I recall the day when Dumars drafted both Stuckey and Affalo. Affalo was picked after Stuckey which I thought was crazy at the time. Stuckey was a huge risk as Detroit's first pick. He never played any defense on his college team and shot mostly layups during time he played in a low level college program. Meanwhile, Affalo was a beast taking his team deep into the NCAA tournament more than once and making player of the year when he was at UCLA. Affalo was the best defensive player in the PAC10 at the time as well. I was so excited when Dumars drafted Arron. What a good guy Affalo is as well. But Affalo was only used as a defensive specialist while Stuckey got most of the playing time for the Pistons. Then after Dumars gave away Billups, he felt he needed to reduce team competition for players he had selected to succeed and gave Affalo away to Denver. This pick up by Denver was creative revenge for Billups. And don't forget that Dumars was such a coward that he didn't even give Billups a phone call to tell him he had been traded.

My question is what in hell happened to Joe Dumars during those years when he reduced the Detroit Pistons to a cellar dweller? What was going on in his life that he paid such little attention to his job as leader of the Detroit Pistons? Everyone loved Joe Dumars based on his fantastic experience as a player. I loved him. Then the switch went off and Joe turned into something else. To me his lowest point was not when he selected Rodney White or Darko in the draft. His lowest point as a Piston employee was when he didn't stand up for the coaches that he selected to run the team. He allowed players to rule and those players were not players many basketball fans would respect. The players revolt and miss a shoot around to make fun of not only the head coach but all the assistant coaches. That was the time for a GM to show real character. I can't imagine Stan Van Gundy or the GM who created the Bad Boys would have gone AWOL like Joe did at the time. The threw his coaches under the bus not once but several times in his tenure as GM President. That is not leadership. That is what nasty front office corporate types do. Joe Dumars work as a front office man will always be stained in my mind for his failure to stand up and do the right thing when this team was filled with losers. Thank God that time has passed.

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Stuff

Post  lemonpen on Thu Apr 23, 2015 4:25 pm

Seb re Meeks FT%: good point. Kinda like touting Singler as our best 3pt shooter when he converts an average of 1 per game.

DX: I don’t understand what value you think Jennings is to others in his current state. Much if not all of his effectiveness depends heavily on use of speed & quickness, and likely will be impaired for quite some time by what many consider one of the most serious kind of leg injuries.

Oracle: I don’t quite understand your Moose solution. It seems like in the event no S&T materializes you want Stan to out bid everyone for Monroe’s services with hope that we can later trade him at a price no one was willing to pay outright. Shocked Is this like real estate investment where we look for appreciation over time. I won’t poo-poo the idea cause I NEVER thought Dandy Don Dombrowski could unload Prince. tb

DX: Why must I be delusional. Maybe the security of a fifth year that only Det can offer has become more attractive after Moose suffered through the fear of a knee injury.

Scott Brooks: I didn’t expect a firing given the significance and number is injuries the faced. I wonder if the organization is too cheap to enjoy long term success anyway. Harden, Jackson, Sepholocia (sp).

K. Leonard: First he captures Finals MVP, and now DPOY. RUMBLE YOUNG MAN RUMBLE. toast

R. Rondo: Why can’t you just get along? STUMBLE YOUNG MAN STUMBLE.
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Joe on Draft Night ...

Post  Sebastian on Thu Apr 23, 2015 2:39 pm

Oracle wrote: DX said that Joe did little after 2004, but if he did nothing, then why are his draft picks doing so well? Middleton , Prince, Amir, Maxiell, Afflalo, Delfino, Jerebko, Okur, and Delfino to name a few of the ones few people thought were NOT worth drafting, but turned out to be solid NBA players. If you add on the others like Stuckey, Knight, Monroe, Drummond, KCP who have been solid starters, Dumars was damn near a genius at drafting, he obviously has few peers that are anywhere near close, and you can count them on 3 fingers!

Sho' you right, Oracle! Joe could draft players with the best of them. That ain't no lie.

And, another thing: I am not so sure that Joe was the motivating force behind the Knight and Middleton swap for Brandon Jennings.

I have no proof, but for some strange reason I have always thought that Gores had a lot to do with this trade than WE Pistons Fans are aware of. I have always had the belief that Gores was functioning as the defacto President of Detroit Pistons Basketball, during Joe's final year.

Joe was a huge fan of Knight and Middleton.

Oracle wrote:@DX - Middleton is NOT the superior talent, Knight is! Let's be clear, that is NOT opinion, it's just fact, coupled with NBA stuff that you already know, but aren't applying to this situation. And this is coming from someone that once I saw Middleton shoot the ball, I never stopped saying that he had one of the sweetest strokes I'd seen, and looked at him as a RIP Hamilton type player!

First the fact - Look at the Bucks record after Knight was traded. If they were anywhere near equivalent, they wouldn't have had such a losing record post Knight. He's good, but he can't do what Knight did for the TEAM, but a lot of that is explained by the following.

Positional Advantages: Knight played PG, and by definition, Knight was going to have a much greater TEAM impact than Middleton will ever have! While both have turned out to be the player the Bucks go to in late game situations, it was Knight who came up bigger more often! Middleton doesn't break down defenses like Knight does, and he's not nearly the disruptive force, but like RIP, he does shoot the ball exceptionally well!

The thing we know better than anything else is... WTF was Dumars and Gores thinking when they made that trade???

@Don - Some of the above applies to some of your remarks, I have a few comments on other issues.

Can the Bucks beat the Bulls: Under normal circumstances... they wouldn't even have a chance, the Bucks are a pitifully flawed team right now without Knight! However, the Bulls are not much better as they're trying to integrate Rose, yet again, and you can see how out of sync they are. If the Bulls don't get it together, they won't go far, and yes, could lose this series! We're seeing some crummy ball being played, and that includes the West as well.

SVG on Pistons: I posted something similar to you a few posts down, SVG is all about getting better defensively, and he knows he has the athletic talent to be top 10 if he can coach Jackson, KCP & Drummond to their full potential. SVG is no different than all of us, we all forget how young these players are at times, but we need to remember that! That's why Knight will have to lead in Phoenix, which is what they want him to do. Oddly they have no floor leader there, and Knight commented that he was shocked that with the Bucks, it was defense first, and in Phoenix, defense was an after thought! I'm so glad SVG isn't that DUMB!!!

Monroe, Dumars and Gores, Oh My: They should have given Monroe a max contract, and locked him up for as many years as possible, and we wouldn't be having these problems today, it was a stupid move for the rookie owner... just plain lunacy!

Had they locked up Monroe, just imagine what we would be looking at getting back to trade him!!! It boggles the mind because there are 10+ teams that would want him YESTERDAY... our bargaining power would have been off the charts!

DX said that Joe did little after 2004, but if he did nothing, then why are his draft picks doing so well? Middleton , Prince, Amir, Maxiell, Afflalo, Delfino, Jerebko, Okur, and Delfino to name a few of the ones few people thought were NOT worth drafting, but turned out to be solid NBA players. If you add on the others like Stuckey, Knight, Monroe, Drummond, KCP who have been solid starters, Dumars was damn near a genius at drafting, he obviously has few peers that are anywhere near close, and you can count them on 3 fingers!

Dumars biggest failure is what Gores finally got right! Somebody has to be driving that damn car!!! This is the importance of coaching! You can get all of the talent you want, and if it's not a team composed of Duncan's, LeBron's, Wades, etc., you're going to need a coach to lead these horses to water!

Even the great players need coaching, just less to produce, but even great talent is surrounded by role players that need coaching. Joe for some reason didn't understand this, and that's shocking for a guy coached by the great one, Daly(all praises).

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F@ckin' Jodie Meeks, the 90% FT Shooter ...

Post  Sebastian on Thu Apr 23, 2015 2:32 pm

Pistons Pals: If I were you (and I am, a Pistons Fan that is), I would not get all giddy about F@ckin' Jodie Meeks free-throw shooting percentage.

The dude only attempted 160 FTs in a total of 60 games played, which is an average of 2.7 (2.66) free-throws per game, which is essential 2.43 points per game from the FT Line.

That ain't sh!t, Pistons Pals.

lemonpen wrote:
deusXango wrote:
Oracle wrote:
deusXango wrote:These are the players who are high on my "trade at all costs if you can" list:

1. Brandon Jennings to the Lakers, if they want to chance him being what they can get by with; Jennings is certain to be more productive and cost less than Nash. Let's not overvalue; many of us knew he wasn't the answer long term and now that we have Jackson and Dinwiddie (who both deserve PT) he's an asset more so than a rotation player for us. - Yes, if the Lakers want him, we need to make that move, but that does leave a hole for the 3rd guard!
2. F@ckin' Jodie Meeks to whoever will take him! He never really contributed our .500 season after Josh was traded and from my vantage point, he never really gelled with the team, plus as Don has questioned, who's he going to defend in the playoffs? That $6 million a year is an unexplored trade asset that's not discussed, but put to proper use, what can we come up with to improve the team? - We can't make him take less, but having him go is risky, and again, it leaves a hole. For a team that shoots horribly at the FT line, he shoots well above 90%!

I forget who said it, and I agreed, this will be one of the more interesting off seasons in years!!!
Add me to that number that thinks this should be one of the more interesting off seasons we've experienced in years, because if nothing else, both the coach/president and his GM are looking for redemption, and that can only come from the product they put on the floor for us. It's back to Go Pistons!!

Oracle, I wouldn't worry about the 3rd guard at this point, but one things for certain, you don't pay a 3rd guard $8.5 million who's playing on a gimpy drumstick; Jackson starts and Dinwiddie (6' 6") is his backup...if Jennings is played in front of Dinwiddie, particularly if he has a good Summer League performance, there'll be rioting in the streets.
If you don't play him how do you get potentially interested trade partners interested?

Meeks is a hell of a FT shooter, but he wasn't signed to shoot FT's, he was signed to shoot 3's. There is a great possibility that SVG will draft Hezonja, if Johnson doesn't declare and Porzingis is off the board (you all know that my personal preference is Kaminsky), which leaves us with Mario and KCP at SG....essentially that might be the fire placed under KCP for him to play up to his expectations, but all this is just conjecture on my part. Like we've agreed on, this is going to be interesting!
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Post  Oracle on Thu Apr 23, 2015 2:07 pm


  1. Scott Brooks Fired: Did I see this coming? No! Was it time? IMO, it was way past time! OKC has not evolved well under Brooks, and it has nothing to do with this year! After initial early success, they have become somewhat predictable. He was a great coach early on for the team when they were young, but now, they need to go in a different direction! Man, the fighting over that gig should be interesting!
  2. Rondo done with the Mavs: No surprise there, except that they would part ways during a playoff series! I never wanted the diva that is Rondo, he thinks way too much of himself. Carlisle isn't known as a coach that is unfair, maybe difficult at times, but fair! However, Rondo is known as a jerk, and I'm glad we didn't make a move for him, unless it was earlier in his career before the championships!
  3. DX: There are two ways to go with Monroe, and we have to take the business approach with him. I think everyone can agree that a sign & trade would be the best for us. If we can work that, IMO, it makes everyone happy. However, if we can't S&T him, IMO, the best course of action is to try to sign him to a close to max contract. Why? Because it's in effect the S&T, because we can trade him after signing him any time we want, so it puts us back in control. It also buys us time, and if we decide to keep him another season, his value would be a lot higher when the CAP rises.
  4. DX: I would like to see how Jennings recovers and plays before making that decision, BUT, I'm not at all averse to moving him for the right deal. Again, this is the Moose situation again. If Jennings does recover and plays well, he will be due a big raise after next season. If we trade him then, we get a lot of value, and as long as we don't over value him, we win a lot bigger!


My final point on Monroe is that if the Pistons don't pull out ALL of the stops in trying to win Monroe back, they are sure to lose Drummond! Drummond is watching their behavior, as is the rest of the league.

IMO, if Monroe leaves, the Pistons need to have VERY clean hands, they have to be seen as the guys that tried their best, but Monroe leaves on his own!
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BIG mistakes

Post  deusXango on Thu Apr 23, 2015 1:33 pm

IMHO the mindset SVG and Bower, and direction, they take going into this offseason, is going to determine if this franchise is going to be successful or known for making big mistakes.

Number 1 on my list of mistakes would be to overpay Monroe, because he suddenly might want to be a Piston (when he was already a Piston); it's come up, but been buried by the hopeful, that there were no outrageous offers extended to Monroe last summer by other teams for the Pistons to match. If they backed off because he'd be an UFA this year and could be signed outright, without making compensation to Detroit, where are they now and how much are they willing to pay him? That Q.O. destroyed a possible S&T, for the still delusional. If Van Gundy pays max money to Monroe to keep a player who no longer fits ("talented" post player, but doesn't fit as a PF!), he's bidding against himself, like Joe Dumars, and that'd be a big mistake. "If you always do what you always did, you'll always get what you always got." We got a losing record with Monroe playing his post game and never averaging 20 points and this is the first season he's averaged 10 rebounds! The first!!! At least approach the agents of Aldridge, Draymond, Millsap, and Love to see if they're receptive to considering Monroe's max level contract money....all of them IMO are better fits at PF than Monroe is for the length of the contract and the time it'd take for Drummond, Jackson, KCP, and this years lottery pick to develop into contenders.

Number 2 on my list of f'ups is re-signing Jackson and keeping Jennings; I'm all for re-signing Jackson, but neither he nor Jennings are bench players, however Jackson has more to offer long range, plus he's undamaged and bigger. If we go into the season with both of them on the team, there's going to be resentment that'll boil over sooner rather than later, resulting in divisions on the team...we're too fragile for that to happen, so trade Jennings A.S.A.P. and move on with Jackson. ALL things considered, Jackson showed me more from the trade deadline trade that brought him here, than Jennings did in the two years he's been here; the off court antics, his sniffling and moody play after the Cheeks firing (I was through with Cheeks my damn self) and his lack of durability, size, and strength. Jackson should be re-signed as a show of faith by management and fans should start pulling for this guy or that'll be another big mistake.

I'm calling these big mistakes because they're not in the interest of making maximum accommodations for our big man and franchise cornerstone, Andre Drummond. Say what you will (and some have repeatedly beat the drum over his shortcomings) about his low FT percentages, his lack of rim protection and defensive lapses; him being raw offensively (only able to dunk and no post moves), but at 21 years of age, averaging 14/14 during a season when he was criticized for lack of effort, and no big man teaching (other than Rasheed Wallace for one year) on college or pro level, I'd take him in the blink of eye and build around him. Monroe was the center when he was drafted here, but now he's taken his job; that doesn't qualify Monroe to be an outstanding PF automatically, what it simply means is, he lost his spot to a superior talent. Drummond needs a real PF alongside him as well as a PG who he can rely on to get him the ball in his most comfortable and productive spots on the floor....a PG that doesn't complain about changing his game (shooting wild eyed 3's early in the shot clock) by making assists to his team mates and is accomplished at the P&R. A PG that not only can score, but get his team mates involved; teams contend when they have great players at those two positions, center and PG. We've got 'em. To not go into the offseason with their best interest in mind would be a BIG mistake.
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Oops

Post  lemonpen on Wed Apr 22, 2015 1:50 pm

merc wrote:LP, Not likely they'll make much improvement as long as Greg "The Matador" Monroe is the starting PF.
I refuse to believe that SVG & Gores don't see this.

Merc, I may have agreed too broadly.   I think this summer will be very interesting, bringing a lot to look forward to.  Such as  Dre, KCP, Jackson, Dinwiddie, Jennings recovery,  the draft and free agency.  

After spending most of the season in Moose's corner my support completely evaporated as I watched a Euro No Name on the Jazz, Marcin Gortat, then Anthony Davis solidly kick Gregs ass all over the court just after the All Star break.  Moose has to be the absolute worst defender of the most commonly run play in the association, a P&R.  In his absence we rolled with a defense significantly quicker to the ball and won more than we lost despite the drop off from GM's scoring and boardwork.  My best Monroe scenario would involve a S&T for some usable asset(s).

Thanks for opening my eyes.
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Merc

Post  Oracle on Tue Apr 21, 2015 11:59 pm

merc wrote:LP, Not likely they'll make much improvement as long as Greg "The Matador" Monroe is the starting PF.
I refuse to believe that SVG & Gores don't see this.

I guarantee you that they know, that list that Stones laid out still stands!

However, this is a business deal! Signing Monroe buys us time, and once he's signed, we can trade him whenever we desire to upgrade the position, and max money now will look cheap once the CAP rises!

Do we lose defensively in the short term? Maybe, maybe not, defense is some combination of talent, hard work, and system! Two of the three are controllable items, so the lack of speed and lateral movement could be offset until we move a valuable asset!

There's no guarantee that we can sign him, and after that expose on Gores's role in this debacle, if Dumars becomes the GM of NO, they'll all of a sudden become the number 1 or 2 spot for Monroe, and, IMO, his best fit!

And that's something you can count on as well, Monroe knows that playing next to UniBrow is in his best interest!
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Re: FORUM

Post  merc on Tue Apr 21, 2015 10:47 pm

LP, Not likely they'll make much improvement as long as Greg "The Matador" Monroe is the starting PF.
I refuse to believe that SVG & Gores don't see this.
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Agreed

Post  lemonpen on Tue Apr 21, 2015 2:02 pm

Oracle wrote:
http://www.mlive.com/pistons/index.ssf/2015/04/detroit_pistons_2014-15_review.html wrote:But the thing that gnawed at him most was defense, with the Pistons allowing 99.5 points per game, and 106.4 points per 100 possessions, which ranked 14th and 19th in the league, respectively.

That with a coach who had exceptional defenses previously in his career, and with a center in Drummond who should evolve into an elite rim protector but hasn't yet.

"Where I haven't really done a good job -- where I guess I'm most disappointed with myself -- is we have not come as far defensively as we should have come at this point," Van Gundy said. "And I think if you look at the teams who have made big jumps from one year to the next, whether it's Atlanta from 38 wins to where they are now, whether it's Milwaukee and the jumps they've made, those teams have made big jumps defensively in what they've done, and we need to do the same thing next year."

Van Gundy called defense "the number-one thing we have to improve," and lamented how easily it was for opponents to score in the lane.

"Part of it is on the perimeter guys getting beaten off the dribble too easily," he said. "Part of it is in our pick-and-roll defense, both the guards and the bigs, and the people on the back side of it. And part of it is on our bigs for not helping early enough and often enough."



Don, I wouldn't give up on where they're going after one season of a new coach and system, and a super green rookie GM without a full staff in place at the start of the season!

SVG, unlike Joe(in his later years), is very clear about where he's going and what he needs to get done! That Reggie Jackson move showed me that they're on their "A" game when it counts, that was one very forward looking move!

Drummond is learning EVERYTHING, and it was a mistake for all of us to see the base talent and overlook the fact that he was as raw as they come, and would need years of development, like most big men do!

Drummond couldn't win for losing this year! Folks complained when he left his man to help, and criticized him when he stayed with his man instead of helping! The fact is that instinct(read experience) will allow him to know when to leave, when not to, and when to cheat and scare defenders... but it's all experience, coaching and hard work!

But IMO, winning cures a lot of ills as we saw this season during the Jennings streak! Guys you hadn't seen play hard in years were out there playing like demons in crunch time! You're seeing that in the playoffs for a lot of reasons, but the main reasons are,

1. There's something to really play for, and players will step up!
2. The entire league and people across the planet are watching, and you better show well in the spotlight!

I know you know that these things make a big difference, even in college, players respond to nationally televised games more than local games, it's human nature for all but the super stars whose performance is more even, but it's still a driver.

I said all of that to say that the future is bright, we're in the best shape in years to have a stellar offseason... rejoice!
Stan put his nuts on the line twice this year (Smoove and Jackson) and wound up with a second cornerstone piece. And when you look at Dre's game from 30,000 feet there was tremendous improvement from game 1 to game 82.
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Bucks

Post  lemonpen on Tue Apr 21, 2015 1:53 pm

cool breeze wrote:Did Joe leak that to the press? My thought after watching the performance of Middleton in the first half of the Bucks-Bulls game is why in hell didn't Mr. Gores nix the insane trade Joe made giving away both Knight and Middleton. Watching the Bucks team is fun. Every player is fast and committed to playing great defense. These Bucks are fighters. They have athletes. Sure they miss some shots but that will come in time. Meanwhile they are getting great playoff experience.

Good job Joe and Tom is making that trade. Damn it all!

They seemed a little too soft for playoffs competition by playing to avoid contact.
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Not So Fast Senior

Post  lemonpen on Tue Apr 21, 2015 1:49 pm

deusXango wrote:
Oracle wrote:
deusXango wrote:These are the players who are high on my "trade at all costs if you can" list:

1. Brandon Jennings to the Lakers, if they want to chance him being what they can get by with; Jennings is certain to be more productive and cost less than Nash. Let's not overvalue; many of us knew he wasn't the answer long term and now that we have Jackson and Dinwiddie (who both deserve PT) he's an asset more so than a rotation player for us. - Yes, if the Lakers want him, we need to make that move, but that does leave a hole for the 3rd guard!
2. F@ckin' Jodie Meeks to whoever will take him! He never really contributed our .500 season after Josh was traded and from my vantage point, he never really gelled with the team, plus as Don has questioned, who's he going to defend in the playoffs? That $6 million a year is an unexplored trade asset that's not discussed, but put to proper use, what can we come up with to improve the team? - We can't make him take less, but having him go is risky, and again, it leaves a hole. For a team that shoots horribly at the FT line, he shoots well above 90%!

I forget who said it, and I agreed, this will be one of the more interesting off seasons in years!!!
Add me to that number that thinks this should be one of the more interesting off seasons we've experienced in years, because if nothing else, both the coach/president and his GM are looking for redemption, and that can only come from the product they put on the floor for us. It's back to Go Pistons!!

Oracle, I wouldn't worry about the 3rd guard at this point, but one things for certain, you don't pay a 3rd guard $8.5 million who's playing on a gimpy drumstick; Jackson starts and Dinwiddie (6' 6") is his backup...if Jennings is played in front of Dinwiddie, particularly if he has a good Summer League performance, there'll be rioting in the streets.
If you don't play him how do you get potentially interested trade partners interested?

Meeks is a hell of a FT shooter, but he wasn't signed to shoot FT's, he was signed to shoot 3's. There is a great possibility that SVG will draft Hezonja, if Johnson doesn't declare and Porzingis is off the board (you all know that my personal preference is Kaminsky), which leaves us with Mario and KCP at SG....essentially that might be the fire placed under KCP for him to play up to his expectations, but all this is just conjecture on my part. Like we've agreed on, this is going to be interesting!
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Post  Oracle on Tue Apr 21, 2015 12:33 pm

@DX - Middleton is NOT the superior talent, Knight is! Let's be clear, that is NOT opinion, it's just fact, coupled with NBA stuff that you already know, but aren't applying to this situation. And this is coming from someone that once I saw Middleton shoot the ball, I never stopped saying that he had one of the sweetest strokes I'd seen, and looked at him as a RIP Hamilton type player!

First the fact - Look at the Bucks record after Knight was traded. If they were anywhere near equivalent, they wouldn't have had such a losing record post Knight. He's good, but he can't do what Knight did for the TEAM, but a lot of that is explained by the following.

Positional Advantages: Knight played PG, and by definition, Knight was going to have a much greater TEAM impact than Middleton will ever have! While both have turned out to be the player the Bucks go to in late game situations, it was Knight who came up bigger more often! Middleton doesn't break down defenses like Knight does, and he's not nearly the disruptive force, but like RIP, he does shoot the ball exceptionally well!

The thing we know better than anything else is... WTF was Dumars and Gores thinking when they made that trade???

@Don - Some of the above applies to some of your remarks, I have a few comments on other issues.

Can the Bucks beat the Bulls: Under normal circumstances... they wouldn't even have a chance, the Bucks are a pitifully flawed team right now without Knight! However, the Bulls are not much better as they're trying to integrate Rose, yet again, and you can see how out of sync they are. If the Bulls don't get it together, they won't go far, and yes, could lose this series! We're seeing some crummy ball being played, and that includes the West as well.

SVG on Pistons: I posted something similar to you a few posts down, SVG is all about getting better defensively, and he knows he has the athletic talent to be top 10 if he can coach Jackson, KCP & Drummond to their full potential. SVG is no different than all of us, we all forget how young these players are at times, but we need to remember that! That's why Knight will have to lead in Phoenix, which is what they want him to do. Oddly they have no floor leader there, and Knight commented that he was shocked that with the Bucks, it was defense first, and in Phoenix, defense was an after thought! I'm so glad SVG isn't that DUMB!!!

Monroe, Dumars and Gores, Oh My: They should have given Monroe a max contract, and locked him up for as many years as possible, and we wouldn't be having these problems today, it was a stupid move for the rookie owner... just plain lunacy!

Had they locked up Monroe, just imagine what we would be looking at getting back to trade him!!! It boggles the mind because there are 10+ teams that would want him YESTERDAY... our bargaining power would have been off the charts!

DX said that Joe did little after 2004, but if he did nothing, then why are his draft picks doing so well? Middleton , Prince, Amir, Maxiell, Afflalo, Delfino, Jerebko, Okur, and Delfino to name a few of the ones few people thought were NOT worth drafting, but turned out to be solid NBA players. If you add on the others like Stuckey, Knight, Monroe, Drummond, KCP who have been solid starters, Dumars was damn near a genius at drafting, he obviously has few peers that are anywhere near close, and you can count them on 3 fingers!

Dumars biggest failure is what Gores finally got right! Somebody has to be driving that damn car!!! This is the importance of coaching! You can get all of the talent you want, and if it's not a team composed of Duncan's, LeBron's, Wades, etc., you're going to need a coach to lead these horses to water!

Even the great players need coaching, just less to produce, but even great talent is surrounded by role players that need coaching. Joe for some reason didn't understand this, and that's shocking for a guy coached by the great one, Daly(all praises).

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My previous post was not necessary - Read the article to the right "A Year Of Familiarity"

Post  cool breeze on Tue Apr 21, 2015 11:22 am

I just read Van Gundy's comments. Looks like we Piston fans are in for better days. He knows what the hell is needed in Piston land. GREAT STUFF!!!

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