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Monroe is average!!!

Post  deusXango on Sat Jan 31, 2015 6:59 pm

Oracle wrote:
deusXango wrote:
cool breeze wrote: Finally in this last game, Stan Van Gundy let Jerebco out of the dog house and he showed energy and edge with his play. What was Jerebko doing in "the dog house" and what did he do to get there? What Van Gundy needs to do from here on out is to bench every player he and his assistant coaches identify as faking it on the court and not bringing a all out hard effort. Hmmmm.  Our bigs are supposed to lead the way because they are the strength of our team. I'm 100% in agreement with this statement, that's why I'm not that high on Monroe; for a big man he doesn't score or rebound enough to compensate for his lack of defense, shot blocking, or play with that consistent edge you're talking about! He doesn't make the players around him better or lead the team. He seems very average to me.

Who's better at center or PF?

Take some inventory and see if what you think matches reality!

On JJ, that's a damn good question. WTF was he doing in the dog house in the first place! He's been one of the better surprises this season!

However Datome is a different situation. It's not hard to make a case that he wasn't given a decent shot, but when 3 coaches pass on him, and one of them is SVG, who values what he does the most, something is wrong with this guy. The major thing I noticed was that he NEVER seemed able to get his shot off in the NBA. I originally attributed this to poor ball movement by the Pistons, but if SVG isn't playing a 3 point specialist, something is rotten in that Linguine!
I'm talking about the NBA, not confining my view of what we can do only with the players on our roster; for far too long that's been the case, where we've stuck to players who were Pistons, regardless of how they stacked up against their NBA contemporaries. There are centers and PF's all across the league who're improving their games from year to year (while Monroe seems to have reached his ceiling!) and are better players than he is; that's why he gets his ass kicked so much in individual matchups against both centers and PF's. Average.

Are you going to share a different reality with me? I'm interested in hearing it. Smile

I keep reading you posts about Datome playing for 3 different coaches and all of them passed on him; you never mention that 2 of those coaches were in 1 season and the 2nd coach in that ignoble season did exactly what his fired predecessor did...those same 3 coaches found no need for Jerebko either, did that make him garbage? Hell, J.J. was just released from an undeserved stay in the "dog house." Those scrap minutes SVG gave Datome earlier in the season, he showed no inability in getting his shot off (that sounds like something picked up from an ill-informed poster, not an Oracle original), hurt the team, or played timid; in addition to that, all who say that Italian League MVP was a sham is demeaning an entire professional league, without knowing sh!t about that league! In my book that's bias and prejudice, and I've got a natural resentment against that mindset...call me immature, uninformed, or whatever, but that sh!t's wrong!!! Getting down to brass tacks, who can/hasn't deserved a shot at SF, with the performances Singler's been treating the fans to?
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They better treat Josh Smith right!

Post  Oracle on Sat Jan 31, 2015 6:00 pm

Josh is basically a good guy, and just because he didn't work out here, there's no reason to boo him!

I hope the crowd shows some class and give him a big round of applause.
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Monroe is average?

Post  Oracle on Sat Jan 31, 2015 5:46 pm

deusXango wrote:
cool breeze wrote: Finally in this last game, Stan Van Gundy let Jerebco out of the dog house and he showed energy and edge with his play. What was Jerebko doing in "the dog house" and what did he do to get there? What Van Gundy needs to do from here on out is to bench every player he and his assistant coaches identify as faking it on the court and not bringing a all out hard effort. Hmmmm.  Our bigs are supposed to lead the way because they are the strength of our team. I'm 100% in agreement with this statement, that's why I'm not that high on Monroe; for a big man he doesn't score or rebound enough to compensate for his lack of defense, shot blocking, or play with that consistent edge you're talking about! He doesn't make the players around him better or lead the team. He seems very average to me.

Who's better at center or PF?

Take some inventory and see if what you think matches reality!

On JJ, that's a damn good question. WTF was he doing in the dog house in the first place! He's been one of the better surprises this season!

However Datome is a different situation. It's not hard to make a case that he wasn't given a decent shot, but when 3 coaches pass on him, and one of them is SVG, who values what he does the most, something is wrong with this guy. The major thing I noticed was that he NEVER seemed able to get his shot off in the NBA. I originally attributed this to poor ball movement by the Pistons, but if SVG isn't playing a 3 point specialist, something is rotten in that Linguine!
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I know you're angry Don, but you still have some great thoughts.

Post  deusXango on Sat Jan 31, 2015 3:34 pm

cool breeze wrote: Finally in this last game, Stan Van Gundy let Jerebco out of the dog house and he showed energy and edge with his play. What was Jerebko doing in "the dog house" and what did he do to get there? What Van Gundy needs to do from here on out is to bench every player he and his assistant coaches identify as faking it on the court and not bringing a all out hard effort. Hmmmm.  Our bigs are supposed to lead the way because they are the strength of our team. I'm 100% in agreement with this statement, that's why I'm not that high on Monroe; for a big man he doesn't score or rebound enough to compensate for his lack of defense, shot blocking, or play with that consistent edge you're talking about! He doesn't make the players around him better or lead the team. He seems very average to me.
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Testing 123 Testing

Post  WTF on Sat Jan 31, 2015 1:43 pm

Testing 123 Testing
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THE SECRET TO WINNING IN THE NBA IS NO SECRET TO THE COACHES AND PLAYERS

Post  cool breeze on Sat Jan 31, 2015 1:17 pm

Stan Van Gundy always identifies why our Pistons lose when they play basketball like they did against Philly. Last night Steve Kerr also identified why teams usually win or lose in the NBA. Kerr's statements in his post game interview included "We didn't have enough life to win" followed by "It's all energy. It's all focus and being on edge. Everybody in the league has so much talent, so it's usually the team that has the better edge, physically, emotionally."

A perfect example of NBA players who tank or give next to nothing relating to the most important characteristics that Steve Kerr and our coach Stan Van Gundy identify as most important was our former player Charlie V. This guy signed a huge contract and then identified himself as a very talented basketball player but never said one word about needing to give maximum effort. Charlie was in a slow jog for the entire time he was a Piston. You can only imagine how he performed in practice. Charlie clearly didn't care at all about helping his team win. He never seemed to look like he was embarrassed after stinking up the Palace with his below average effort. When did we ever see Charlie with "an edge" or that killer look that he was going to refuse to lose? But last night Charlie scored 20 points. He was running the floor hard and I couldn't recognize that he was the same player that at one time wore a Piston uniform. It is too bad that the owners can't sue players like Charlie V to get their money back. But over the past 6 seasons watching our Pistons, we fans have witnessed a lot of players tanking it and just going through the motions while the opposing teams are playing hard.

Many fans believe that simply bringing in this player or that new player will change the team for the better. For sure what needs to be done is for the coach to identify the lazy ass players and bench them which all former Piston coaches did with Charlie. The problem with Joe Dumars was that he didn't rid the team of players like Charlie regardless of the cost. That is what needed to be done for sure to let the other players know that effort and energy must be shown on the court all the time or those players who don't show it will not wear the Piston uniform. Dumars tolerated lazy ass players just shrugging his shoulders saying what can I do? If one highly paid player gets away with the stuff that Charlie did, the other players will follow suit saying we don't have to bring our A game either.

Now who completely changed the way they played this season and finally brought an "EDGE" that could clearly be identified by all fans? Brandon Jennings suddenly transformed himself after Josh Smith was released and set an example for his team and became that catalyst that created a new energy within this Piston team. In the last game, Stan Van Gundy identified that this edge was missing and somehow our players lead by our two starting big men sunk into a new low that was even worse than the Charlie V era of Piston history. Andre Drummond jogging up the court and failing to attempt to guard his man and then watching like a fan as an opponent shot and outside shot that missed and his assigned man. Monroe did the same thing and sure enough as the game progressed, this low effort zero playing edge spread to the rest of the team. It is no secret that all NBA opponents game plans in past seasons included emphasis as the key to victory was for their big men to sprint down the court from defense to offense because our Piston big men were identified as lazy players. Finally in this last game, Stan Van Gundy let Jerebco out of the dog house and he showed energy and edge with his play. What Van Gundy needs to do from here on out is to bench every player he and his assistant coaches identify as faking it on the court and not bringing a all out hard effort. I don't really care if our team loses as long as I see that they are playing honestly and showing that they care. To play with an EDGE players have to prepare mentally before the games and not just stroll out on the court half asleep before the tip off. That is what they did against Philly. Losing has nothing to do with the play of our point guards. It had everything to do with the highly thought of big men. Our bigs are supposed to lead the way because they are the strength of our team.

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Truth

Post  lemonpen on Sat Jan 31, 2015 10:12 am

WISEFAN wrote:Throwing my 2 pennies into the mix.

1. I wouldn't call Andre our future he could be a solid piece going forward but I don't think he'll be the player some think we should build around.  To that I wouldn't say I wouldn't trade him if the price is right.  

2. As much as I hate Moose's guts if we had a player that we might consider wanting to put players around it would be him but only as our starting center and nothing more.  The honest truth is that neither him or Andre are truly piece to build a team around.

3. What we need on this team is another Zeke or Grant Hill, in short we need a fu@king Bona-Fide All-Star player period and until that happens the team will suck! or slightly bearable at best!

4. As a whole I don't like many of the players on the team, as I have said these are really all role players, or player that don't really fit into a system. IMO KCP isn't an All-Star SG going forward.  We need players like Joe, Stackhouse, or Rip complimenting a Zeke or Grant Hill type player.

5. It's really too much wishful thinking at this position. Besides Grant Hill we had role players in this position that eventually turned All Star or were on the cusp of being All Stars,  Corliss, Prince, Rodman, Mark and when you think of these guys who took a back seat as role players they delivered a hell of a lot more on a consistent basis than what we're getting out players (JJ, Singler, and Butler) IMO shouldn't be on our team.    I confused by all the attention we give their sorry asses.  

6. IMO 2004 has got us all fu@ked up in the head that we think we pull scraps together and form a Championship team again.  We need to be in the market for gaining a number 1 pick or tanking seriously.  2004 is not going to happen this will be the only team in NBA history that won without a Super Star player.  We need to draft a freaking Super Star and build around him and last I look there are no Super Stars on this team. Many of you guys act like it is but there's not a one.   We need to move beyond this thinking, it should not be some standard of how we look to build.  I think what gets lost in all of this and Joe did a great thing but he didn't do it with a bunch scrubs and inconsistent role players. If I remember correctly most of those guys were Top 10 Lottery Picks at some point and you guys think it suppose to go down with guys I would have struggle selecting as 2nd rounder's.

What I'm saying trade what you have to get this sh!t righted, so that means I don't have an issue with trading anyone on this team. I'm not committed to keeping a single one of them.  GET ME A FREAKING ZEKE or HILL!!!!!!!!!   We clearly lowered our standards and I for one is confused by the players were placing hope in.

BTW No Andre and Monroe don't need strong ASG consideration as reserves.
 

I'm glad to see you recognize the significance of the 04 team.  clap  clap  clap  clap   For the longest time called Joe outright lucky, falling into a ship.  Understand one additional thing.  It takes more than an All Star or even Superstar.  The 35 year record proves it takes a TOP 50 ALL TIME star to capture a ship.  Grant Hill may never have been enough.

Edit
Correction: Scrolling up I see that you guys have recognized the magnitude of greatness required to git-er-done.
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Future

Post  Sparma on Sat Jan 31, 2015 9:46 am

Thanks for reminding me of Stockton, Wise. He'd be the other superstar PG since the Bad Boys. Of course, making it to the finals twice is nothing to sneeze at.

As much as anything, Jordan, LeBron, Kobe are top ten ever talents (top 5 for the first two), whereas Stockton, Kidd, Nash, and Paul are somewhere in the top fifty, great as they are. The last time a PG was a top ten player ever, he rang up championships with the Lakers (not to mention MSU). So I think it's less about the position and more about how great your primary player is. Durant's in danger of becoming the most transcendent star ever not to win a championship.

Drummond's no where near being a top fifty all time player and I question whether he ever will be. One thing that's bugging me now is that he doesn't box out energetically and consistently. Monroe's much better than him in that respect defensively, when up against a guy of comparable size.

The chances of us adding a superstar are remote. I'd hoped that Mudiay'd get a chance to take a crack at that status with us. Doesn't look like that's going to happen though.

I think we can become a decent team pretty soon, with SVG at the helm. Genuinely being a contender looks far, far away to me.

WISEFAN wrote:
Sparma wrote:I'm inclined to agree with what you wrote: "IMHO center and PG are the two most important positions on a contending team...we've got our center, now the question becomes, how badly do we want that PG?"

In my own case, I wonder if my preference is partly generational, going back to Kareem and Oscar, Kareem and Magic, Isiah and Laimbeer, etc.

Since my early days of following the NBA closely, Jordan, Kobe, and LeBron have totaled, what, 13 championships.  I'm sure you'd be happy to have any of them as a centerpiece, because they're each top 10 all time.  The past 25 years or so seem to show that it's having a mega talent on your team is the single best contributing factor to being a champion (and I love the exceptions of the Spurs last year and our own Pistons).

Beyond that, there's the weird fact (correct me if I'm wrong!) that the best PGs of their era didn't win championships.  Kidd won with Dallas, but in the twilight of his career, when he was no longer the key to the team.  Kidd made it to a finals.  The other two superb PGs that come to mind -- Nash and Paul -- haven't made it that far.

I remain inclined to agree with you.  Maybe those two positions continue to be the key to being a contender, even though it's have mega talent(s) that gives you the inside track to the ultimate prize.  There's a puzzler with the real, but limited, success of the great PGs on the era, though.


Don't forget John Stockton on that list as well.  I agree Andre can be a center piece just not the center piece o I honestly would like to keep, but if I see an opportunity at getting a Kobe, MJ, Lebron and Durant type of player and it requires us giving him up I'll say do it.  These players make players around them better and Andre don't and likely never will.  

IMO we need to build around a superstar PG or wing player that's going to make everyone around them better.  If Andre was a Ewing or Duncan that's something else.  
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While it seems everyone is worried about point guard play, that wasn't the reason why the Pistons looked so feeble against Philly

Post  cool breeze on Fri Jan 30, 2015 9:27 pm

I thought that both Augustin and Dinwiddie played hard but nobody could run an offense if the other 4 players stand around. Even on the out of bounds plays, it was difficult for the feeder to find an open player. We all know the reason for that. It is the same reason why the Pistons looked so pathetic last season. LACK OF ENERGY OR DOWN RIGHT LAZY ASS EFFORT was the thing that stood out for Stan Van Gundy. He said that he was embarrassed as a coach and who wouldn't. It appeared that our players were out all night and had been drinking hard liquor right up to the tip off. Lack of mental preparation caused our players especially our two big men to look like wimps. I stopped counting how many times Andre Drummond stood on defense and looked back at a Philly shooter while his assigned man moved in front of him to get the rebound. Monroe looked the same way like a deer in the headlights. Who in hell does that but a fool? You learn in Jr. High to box out and prepare yourself to rebound a missed shot if you play center or power forward. I was especially upset with Drummond who clearly looked terrible in that game and it appeared that he didn't care. So now we get back to the concern that the owners must have. Who would drive in the snow at night after working hard all day to watch a group of clowns play like Morons???? This talk about about adding a point guard is all smoke and mirrors. Maybe Van Gundy will need to release another player to get their asses moving in the right direction again.

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Sparma

Post  WTF on Fri Jan 30, 2015 5:10 pm

Sparma wrote:I'm inclined to agree with what you wrote: "IMHO center and PG are the two most important positions on a contending team...we've got our center, now the question becomes, how badly do we want that PG?"

In my own case, I wonder if my preference is partly generational, going back to Kareem and Oscar, Kareem and Magic, Isiah and Laimbeer, etc.

Since my early days of following the NBA closely, Jordan, Kobe, and LeBron have totaled, what, 13 championships.  I'm sure you'd be happy to have any of them as a centerpiece, because they're each top 10 all time.  The past 25 years or so seem to show that it's having a mega talent on your team is the single best contributing factor to being a champion (and I love the exceptions of the Spurs last year and our own Pistons).

Beyond that, there's the weird fact (correct me if I'm wrong!) that the best PGs of their era didn't win championships.  Kidd won with Dallas, but in the twilight of his career, when he was no longer the key to the team.  Kidd made it to a finals.  The other two superb PGs that come to mind -- Nash and Paul -- haven't made it that far.

I remain inclined to agree with you.  Maybe those two positions continue to be the key to being a contender, even though it's have mega talent(s) that gives you the inside track to the ultimate prize.  There's a puzzler with the real, but limited, success of the great PGs on the era, though.


Don't forget John Stockton on that list as well. I agree Andre can be a center piece just not the center piece o I honestly would like to keep, but if I see an opportunity at getting a Kobe, MJ, Lebron and Durant type of player and it requires us giving him up I'll say do it. These players make players around them better and Andre don't and likely never will.

IMO we need to build around a superstar PG or wing player that's going to make everyone around them better. If Andre was a Ewing or Duncan that's something else.
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Deus

Post  Sparma on Fri Jan 30, 2015 2:03 pm

I'm inclined to agree with what you wrote: "IMHO center and PG are the two most important positions on a contending team...we've got our center, now the question becomes, how badly do we want that PG?"

In my own case, I wonder if my preference is partly generational, going back to Kareem and Oscar, Kareem and Magic, Isiah and Laimbeer, etc.

Since my early days of following the NBA closely, Jordan, Kobe, and LeBron have totaled, what, 13 championships. I'm sure you'd be happy to have any of them as a centerpiece, because they're each top 10 all time. The past 25 years or so seem to show that it's having a mega talent on your team is the single best contributing factor to being a champion (and I love the exceptions of the Spurs last year and our own Pistons).

Beyond that, there's the weird fact (correct me if I'm wrong!) that the best PGs of their era didn't win championships. Kidd won with Dallas, but in the twilight of his career, when he was no longer the key to the team. Kidd made it to a finals. The other two superb PGs that come to mind -- Nash and Paul -- haven't made it that far.

I remain inclined to agree with you. Maybe those two positions continue to be the key to being a contender, even though it's have mega talent(s) that gives you the inside track to the ultimate prize. There's a puzzler with the real, but limited, success of the great PGs on the era, though.

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Deus Mio!

Post  FlyDog on Fri Jan 30, 2015 1:02 pm

Nice post Deus, I wouldn't dream of trading Drummond either. Whatever his "Deal" is Defensively is certainly not due to lack of ability. I think he'll get it figured out. That jump hook from the circle is looking better and better too. The guy is a freak, and with a true stretch 4 as you suggest and a wing who can open up the floor, he would blossom. Can SVG furnish him with some real tools around him to properly feed the beast? That remains to be seen.

From what I've seen of KCP, he would make an excellent backup SG in the Bruce Bowen fashion. He's a little too timid for the starting lineup, imo. And I think he's timid because he lacks in either an Offensive identity, skill, or both.

My gosh, this roster needs work.
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Since Bower is riding, I'll drive.

Post  deusXango on Fri Jan 30, 2015 11:08 am

My two cents worth today (a couple of weeks before the trade deadline) concerns making the changes that'll lead to a contending team, IMHO, and Van Gundy can coach them if he wants....I'm a firm believer that a great coach can coach more than one way, just like he can successfully coach more than one group of players.

Andre Drummond: I ain't thinking about trading him for any reason, no matter what's pointed out about his current shortcomings; for f@cks sake, isn't that just what was done with BK7? Granted, he isn't the intense defender Ben Wallace was, but who is?! The young man has a special skillset that's yet to be developed...SVG has had him for what, half a season? If we can pay Josh to play for someone else for the next five years, why can we show the patience to Drummond to develop over the course of his rookie contract? Centers that do what he does don't fall from trees everyday.

Greg Monroe: Will he agree to a mid-season trade, to any team in the NBA? The position he's placed himself in and with David Falk in his ear, what does the intelligent think? Hell NO!!! He'd sooner resign with us mid-season than agree to a trade, so I always wonder where can I get me some of that refreshment, that writers who speculate on that, they did. Sign and trade or he walks for nothing won't take place until this summer, so that's the eventuality that I'm preparing for; taking the longview, it's more important to replace Monroe on the frontline than it is to replace Singler....Monroe brings a hell of a lot more to the teams effort than Singler does. I think it's 60/40 he walks.

Kentavious Caldwell-Pope: An enigma wrapped in a mystery, and on and on; we won't know what we have in this player until next year when he decides if he's a defender who can occasionally score or a scorer who can defend....I'm putting my money on defender, which ain't bad! As long as he knows who he is as a player, he'll be okay; I'm not giving up on him either, but I am looking to upgrade the starting SG spot.

There's only one bench player I'd remotely consider bringing back next year and that's Anthony Tolliver; he and J.J. are clones, but Tolliver is more aggressive, skilled, and will come in cheaper. The rest can go by the deadline on the 14th! I'm aiming for at least two additional first round picks this year (if it took KCP to accomplish this, bye, bye) and would fill out the roster with D-Leaguers for the remainder of the season, playoffs are meaningless at this point and damn the delusional. We've got a team to build and that's not accomplished with a mid-round pick and a first round ass kicking!

The 3 First Round Picks: If Jennings comes back healthy or not, D'Angelo Russell is the PG prospect I'm hanging my hat on; we've blown too many opportunities to draft a stud PG in the past, BK7 notwithstanding. The player who could solve our SG/SF predicament is Mario Hezonja and that's who would be my second pick. We're hurting for points from those two positions and as a scorer, he can be plugged into either of those spots better than KCP or Singler. Like we all know, Monroe is a center and expects to receive starting center money and a starting spot; my belief is we're going to lose him so this is why I've been beating the Frank Kaminsky drum. IMHO all he has to do is come in and be consistent and compliment Andre, while giving SVG what he needs as a coach, which is doable for a smart guy....I know how we value smart guys. With a possible nucleus of Drummond, Kaminsky, Hezonja, Russell, KCP, Jennings, and Tolliver, I'm ready to go to the FA market with money to spend! For all who write me off as a dreamer I ask you, what the f@ck is Bower doing while he sleeps?
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Yeah Bat Crazy In A Handbasket!

Post  WTF on Fri Jan 30, 2015 8:25 am

Did he lose or did he allow those players to walk or did he trade them away.  Yes Joe  lost: Hill, Hunter, Laettner, & Mills, but Joe gained Williamson, Big Ben, Atkins, Owens, Cebballos, Barros, John Wallace and Joe Smith.  There may not was a Grant Hill in the bunch but he certainly made up for the lost of the others.  

Irvine also coach that previous season playoff team tb He may not be a SVG but a playoff coach he was.

Oracle wrote:OMG lol lol lol  ... What in the world are you talking about?

You don't inherit a team unless the team is EXACTLY the same... my God man, how can you think otherwise?

Come on Oracle do SVG have a Big Ben, or Corliss Williamson, or a Jerry Stackhouse, he don't even have a Chucky Atkins at this point.  You swear Cleaves was the greatest PG we ever had.  SVG inherited the same crappy team that lost consistent roles players Stuckey and Bynum that have yet to be replaced.

I would be willing to bet that a line up of Atkins, Big Ben, Stackhouse, Corliss and Joe Smith would kick this current rosters ass.  These players might have been on the downside of their careers (Billy Owens, Cebballos, John Wallace and Barros) I would take them over our current bench of role players we have today.
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Is this some pseudo Josh Smith Bat Crap Crazy Logic????

Post  Oracle on Fri Jan 30, 2015 6:31 am

WISEFAN wrote:No Joe started with a team that just loss in the playoff. Joe elected to draft Cleave and Cardinal and created that sh!tty season for himself. Joe could have had Turkoglu, Q Rich, Mo Pete, Michael Redd, Desmond Mason and had better success.  Joe screwed up but he had pieces that netted him Rip and Corliss after landing Big Ben and Atkins but imagine if he had selected any 2 of the players mention oppose to Cleave and Cardinal.  Lets say Turk or Q-Rich or Mo Pete or Redd.  

Joe created a 32-50 team but that prior season team was 42-40 and Q Rich was the perfect replacement to Grant Hill at SF at the time.  Cleave was about as big of a bust as Darko IMO.  Perhaps had Joe drafted better that team could have been right back in the playoffs, I'm not saying this to bash Josh just to make a point about what Joe actually started with.

OMG lol lol lol  ... What in the world are you talking about?

You don't inherit a team unless the team is EXACTLY the same... my God man, how can you think otherwise?

Would you claim a coach inherited the championship Bulls team without Jordan, or the Bad Boys without Zeke, or the Celtics without Bird? Where do you get this material, this is clearly Josh Smith thinking!

Almost NOBODY from that 42-40 team was on the team Joe had his first year! New team, new PG, lost superstar, new coach... George Irvine for Christ's sake, SVG has SVG as coach, now who in your head has the advantage???

On top of that, the team Joe had got significantly smaller than the previous team, in an era where teams were getting bigger! But Joe was smart enough to know what you seem to not understand... he had to commit to a FULL rebuild, and that's what he did! Didn't you understand that the first season under Joe, with Irvine as coach was part of the rebuild, and a recognition that it WASN'T a playoff team anymore?

You even spent time thinking about this and STILL drew this conclusion.

Then you doubled down on the crazy and said this, "Cleave was about as big of a bust as Darko IMO" - Wise... WHAT????

You're comparing a #14 pick to picking at the #2 spot... in one of the GREATEST draft classes in history??? That's Josh Smith bat crap crazy too!

You hate Joe & Cleaves so much that you're not thinking straight, but if that's not the case...

I hope you can explain some of this, any of this, because this is some space alien anal probing stuff!

For Reference, here is a little factual information.

1. 1999-00 Detroit Pistons Roster and Stats
2. 2000-01 Detroit Pistons Roster and Stats

Joe lost: Hill, Hunter, Laettner, & Mills
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One More Thing I'll Add

Post  WTF on Fri Jan 30, 2015 1:23 am

Now while SVG wasn't inheriting a 42-40 team he was presented with a similar opportunity to get a sign and trade done with a marquee players but allowed him to sign a QO instead. SVG didn't have a 1st round pick like Joe though Joe fu@ked that up royally in taking Cleaves and lastly SVG didn't get a group of guys that had playoff experience and Joe did. Joe also had the ability to gain a 1st round pick that he later converted into Sheed SVG had nothing that he could use to gain a 1st round pick How many time did those Teal Teams make the playoffs and how many of those guys Joe was able to move? SVG would have to work a miracle to move most of these current players he inherited from Joe.

I'm not concluding that SVG hasn't screwed up some, but the amount of failure is reasonably understandable IMO. But its night and day with how they both started.

I only brought the difference up because I read something can't remember where comparing SVG start to Joe's.
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Oracle Joe Inherited A 42-40 Team

Post  WTF on Fri Jan 30, 2015 12:59 am

No Joe started with a team that just loss in the playoff. Joe elected to draft Cleave and Cardinal and created that sh!tty season for himself. Joe could have had Turkoglu, Q Rich, Mo Pete, Michael Redd, Desmond Mason and had better success.  Joe screwed up but he had pieces that netted him Rip and Corliss after landing Big Ben and Atkins but imagine if he had selected any 2 of the players mention oppose to Cleave and Cardinal.  Lets say Turk or Q-Rich or Mo Pete or Redd.  

Joe created a 32-50 team but that prior season team was 42-40 and Q Rich was the perfect replacement to Grant Hill at SF at the time.  Cleave was about as big of a bust as Darko IMO.  Perhaps had Joe drafted better that team could have been right back in the playoffs, I'm not saying this to bash Josh just to make a point about what Joe actually started with.
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Wise

Post  Oracle on Fri Jan 30, 2015 12:30 am

WISEFAN wrote:I would or could buy into this if we actually had a KD type player, or a Wiggins that offer that kind of future hope.  I would be perfectly happy with getting a bona fide stud superstar in the draft then putting all the right pieces around him kind like what we did with Grant Hill but with better success that result with contending.  

I know I keep bring up the Teal Years and when I think about it I conclude that it was only bad considering what it had to follow but that was a playoff team with a bona fide super star on it.  The Teal Years are not our darkest day as Pistons Fans it is now with this current team.  Some want to quickly compare SVG beginning to that of Joe's but Joe started with a playoff team that had tradable talent that resulted into that 2004 team.  SVG don't have that at his disposal Moose and Andre are his only true assets but is he willing to sacrifice them for a high lottery pick.  

If I was SVG I would be strongly considering trading both Andre and Moose for draft picks, cutting my losses with KCP and I would be starting over big time.  So Yes I would swap either one for MCW or a lottery pick,  Yes I would trade KCP all the other crap I would toss in the garbage and move on.

There are times I feel we just wasted 4 lottery picks and tossed away a 5th.  facepalm

What???

You posted all of that good old stuff and you think Joe STARTED with a playoff team???

Joe started with a team that had Cleaves & Cardinal as rookies, and that team went 32-50 and out of the playoffs!

Joe had to BUILD a championship team from the sh!t hole we were in! We were begging for FA's to come, and nobody wanted to!

On the current team, you have, again, some good points!

Andre has a LOT of upside, but you can't apply guard learning time on big men, they're radically different.

However, most of the rest of the team, I would trade for one star player. I'd try, to keep a core of Monroe, KCP, and Drummond, everybody else can go for the right price.

But if KCP & Monroe could get me a superstar level player, don't let the door hit them in the ass on their way out!
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Youth Movement My Ass

Post  WTF on Fri Jan 30, 2015 12:02 am

I would or could buy into this if we actually had a KD type player, or a Wiggins that offer that kind of future hope. I would be perfectly happy with getting a bona fide stud superstar in the draft then putting all the right pieces around him kind like what we did with Grant Hill but with better success that result with contending.

I know I keep bring up the Teal Years and when I think about it I conclude that it was only bad considering what it had to follow but that was a playoff team with a bona fide super star on it. The Teal Years are not our darkest day as Pistons Fans it is now with this current team. Some want to quickly compare SVG beginning to that of Joe's but Joe started with a playoff team that had tradable talent that resulted into that 2004 team. SVG don't have that at his disposal Moose and Andre are his only true assets but is he willing to sacrifice them for a high lottery pick.

If I was SVG I would be strongly considering trading both Andre and Moose for draft picks, cutting my losses with KCP and I would be starting over big time. So Yes I would swap either one for MCW or a lottery pick, Yes I would trade KCP all the other crap I would toss in the garbage and move on.

There are times I feel we just wasted 4 lottery picks and tossed away a 5th. facepalm
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Take The Blinders Off People Time To Revolt

Post  WTF on Thu Jan 29, 2015 11:22 pm

Just because we drafted some sh!t we don't have to keep it.  We drafted Houston and Hunter and those guys didn't take 2 season to be productive players, we didn't wait a life time on Theo,  Don Reid was a beast right out of the gate only slowed by an injury that guy actually had ALL STAR written all over and that's more than I can say about Moose or Dre.   If our 2nd unit players showed half the effort of Williams and Moore I would be happy if nothing else we got rebounds and defense out of them.  Point is that made consistent contribution, viable, noticeable contribution every time they played, we watch Kyle ass for 30 minutes and be happy if he scores 5 and get a couple of rebounds.
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Remember The Tough Players We Had That Contributed

Post  WTF on Thu Jan 29, 2015 11:01 pm

Nothing about this current roster equates to what we had in the past period.  Even when you think about the rosters of the Teal Years that team included players some of them role players that even our current team starters can't compare.  Take a look at the list below and these players got Grant Hill into the playoff each seasons.  Do we have any of these quality type players on our current rosters either starting or as a role player?  The majority of these players all champions at some point on some level and strong contributors to the team success.  These people are the type of role players we rooted for not these **** ass role players we have now.  

Theo Ratliff (Andre should be better but he's not)
Bison Dele
Eric Montross
Johnny Dawkins
Jerome Williams (Reminds me of Tolliver)
Charles O'Bannon
Otis Thorpe
Grant Long
Mark Macon
Oliver Miller (This guy was a monster when he wanted to be)
Terry Mills (Best Stretch player we ever had)
Aaron Mckie (KCP wish he defend as well)
Don Reid (Solid man beast taken down by injury)
Scot Pollard
Lindsey Hunter (He carried those Teal Team to the playoffs)
Jerry Stackhouse
Allan Houston (KCP isn't close)
Mark West
Stacey Augman
Loy Vaught
Jud Buechler
Christian Laettner
Kenny Smith
Mikki Moore
Korleone Young
Joe Dumars
Rick Mahorn

Lets get us a Superstar and put these type of players around him
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Jennings is easily the most talented Piston ...

Post  Sebastian on Thu Jan 29, 2015 9:56 pm

WISEFAN wrote:Throwing my 2 pennies into the mix.

1. I wouldn't call Andre our future he could be a solid piece going forward but I don't think he'll be the player some think we should build around.  To that I wouldn't say I wouldn't trade him if the price is right.  

2. As much as I hate Moose's guts if we had a player that we might consider wanting to put players around it would be him but only as our starting center and nothing more.  The honest truth is that neither him or Andre are truly piece to build a team around.

3. What we need on this team is another Zeke or Grant Hill, in short we need a fu@king Bona-Fide All-Star player period and until that happens the team will suck! or slightly bearable at best!

4. As a whole I don't like many of the players on the team, as I have said these are really all role players, or player that don't really fit into a system. IMO KCP isn't an All-Star SG going forward.  We need players like Joe, Stackhouse, or Rip complimenting a Zeke or Grant Hill type player.

5. It's really too much wishful thinking at this position. Besides Grant Hill we had role players in this position that eventually turned All Star or were on the cusp of being All Stars,  Corliss, Prince, Rodman, Mark and when you think of these guys who took a back seat as role players they delivered a hell of a lot more on a consistent basis than what we're getting out players (JJ, Singler, and Butler) IMO shouldn't be on our team.    I confused by all the attention we give their sorry asses.  

6. IMO 2004 has got us all fu@ked up in the head that we think we pull scraps together and form a Championship team again.  We need to be in the market for gaining a number 1 pick or tanking seriously.  2004 is not going to happen this will be the only team in NBA history that won without a Super Star player.  We need to draft a freaking Super Star and build around him and last I look there are no Super Stars on this team. Many of you guys act like it is but there's not a one.   We need to move beyond this thinking, it should not be some standard of how we look to build.  I think what gets lost in all of this and Joe did a great thing but he didn't do it with a bunch scrubs and inconsistent role players. If I remember correctly most of those guys were Top 10 Lottery Picks at some point and you guys think it suppose to go down with guys I would have struggle selecting as 2nd rounder's.

What I'm saying trade what you have to get this sh!t righted, so that means I don't have an issue with trading anyone on this team. I'm not committed to keeping a single one of them.  GET ME A FREAKING ZEKE or HILL!!!!!!!!!   We clearly lowered our standards and I for one is confused by the players were placing hope in.

BTW No Andre and Monroe don't need strong ASG consideration as reserves.  

Other than Jennings' OUR 2014-2015 Pistons are a collection of back-ups and two young Centers. And, Jennings probably will not dribble, again, until January 2016.

Damn!!!
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Amazing Post....

Post  Oracle on Thu Jan 29, 2015 9:11 pm

WISEFAN wrote:Throwing my 2 pennies into the mix.

1. I wouldn't call Andre our future he could be a solid piece going forward but I don't think he'll be the player some think we should build around.  To that I wouldn't say I wouldn't trade him if the price is right.  - I'm really disappointed that Drummond is such a piss poor defender! Noel is almost useless in everything else, but he's at least a great shot blocker. UniBrow has the full package, and while Dre can rebound with the best of them, he should be an elite defender, but he isn't even average, as Fly says, he gets punked by every Euro Gump on the planet way too often! He should be shutting these guys down, having them sh!tting their pants if they have to face him in the post!

2. As much as I hate Moose's guts if we had a player that we might consider wanting to put players around it would be him but only as our starting center and nothing more.  The honest truth is that neither him or Andre are truly piece to build a team around. - I'm with you here, and not because Monroe is really great, but because next to Dre, this is an easy decision(at center)!

3. What we need on this team is another Zeke or Grant Hill, in short we need a fu@king Bona-Fide All-Star player period and until that happens the team will suck! or slightly bearable at best! - Nuff said, that's the bottom line!

4. As a whole I don't like many of the players on the team, as I have said these are really all role players, or player that don't really fit into a system. IMO KCP isn't an All-Star SG going forward.  We need players like Joe, Stackhouse, or Rip complimenting a Zeke or Grant Hill type player. - Ditto

5. It's really too much wishful thinking at this position. Besides Grant Hill we had role players in this position that eventually turned All Star or were on the cusp of being All Stars,  Corliss, Prince, Rodman, Mark and when you think of these guys who took a back seat as role players they delivered a hell of a lot more on a consistent basis than what we're getting out players (JJ, Singler, and Butler) IMO shouldn't be on our team.    I confused by all the attention we give their sorry asses. - Wow, looking back, we had STARS coming off the freaking bench!

6. IMO 2004 has got us all fu@ked up in the head that we think we pull scraps together and form a Championship team again.  We need to be in the market for gaining a number 1 pick or tanking seriously.  2004 is not going to happen this will be the only team in NBA history that won without a Super Star player.  We need to draft a freaking Super Star and build around him and last I look there are no Super Stars on this team. Many of you guys act like it is but there's not a one.   We need to move beyond this thinking, it should not be some standard of how we look to build.  I think what gets lost in all of this and Joe did a great thing but he didn't do it with a bunch scrubs and inconsistent role players. If I remember correctly most of those guys were Top 10 Lottery Picks at some point and you guys think it suppose to go down with guys I would have struggle selecting as 2nd rounder's. - This is the biggie! We've all been guilty of this, but what we did in 2004 is the EXCEPTION, not the rule! Five really good men will beat 2 great guys most of the time! It's time to move on, and that means either trading for a star player or tanking to get a chance!

What I'm saying trade what you have to get this sh!t righted, so that means I don't have an issue with trading anyone on this team. I'm not committed to keeping a single one of them.  GET ME A FREAKING ZEKE or HILL!!!!!!!!!   We clearly lowered our standards and I for one is confused by the players were placing hope in.

BTW No Andre and Monroe don't need strong ASG consideration as reserves.  

Good thoughts!

BTW, that Augustin bandwagon went over the cliff pretty quickly! I hope it was just the fact that MCW was just too big for him!
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Okay Its 6 Cents

Post  WTF on Thu Jan 29, 2015 6:22 pm

Throwing my 2 pennies into the mix.

1. I wouldn't call Andre our future he could be a solid piece going forward but I don't think he'll be the player some think we should build around.  To that I wouldn't say I wouldn't trade him if the price is right.  

2. As much as I hate Moose's guts if we had a player that we might consider wanting to put players around it would be him but only as our starting center and nothing more.  The honest truth is that neither him or Andre are truly piece to build a team around.

3. What we need on this team is another Zeke or Grant Hill, in short we need a fu@king Bona-Fide All-Star player period and until that happens the team will suck! or slightly bearable at best!

4. As a whole I don't like many of the players on the team, as I have said these are really all role players, or player that don't really fit into a system. IMO KCP isn't an All-Star SG going forward.  We need players like Joe, Stackhouse, or Rip complimenting a Zeke or Grant Hill type player.

5. It's really too much wishful thinking at this position. Besides Grant Hill we had role players in this position that eventually turned All Star or were on the cusp of being All Stars,  Corliss, Prince, Rodman, Mark and when you think of these guys who took a back seat as role players they delivered a hell of a lot more on a consistent basis than what we're getting out players (JJ, Singler, and Butler) IMO shouldn't be on our team.    I confused by all the attention we give their sorry asses.  

6. IMO 2004 has got us all fu@ked up in the head that we think we pull scraps together and form a Championship team again.  We need to be in the market for gaining a number 1 pick or tanking seriously.  2004 is not going to happen this will be the only team in NBA history that won without a Super Star player.  We need to draft a freaking Super Star and build around him and last I look there are no Super Stars on this team. Many of you guys act like it is but there's not a one.   We need to move beyond this thinking, it should not be some standard of how we look to build.  I think what gets lost in all of this and Joe did a great thing but he didn't do it with a bunch scrubs and inconsistent role players. If I remember correctly most of those guys were Top 10 Lottery Picks at some point and you guys think it suppose to go down with guys I would have struggle selecting as 2nd rounder's.

What I'm saying trade what you have to get this sh!t righted, so that means I don't have an issue with trading anyone on this team. I'm not committed to keeping a single one of them.  GET ME A FREAKING ZEKE or HILL!!!!!!!!!   We clearly lowered our standards and I for one is confused by the players were placing hope in.

BTW No Andre and Monroe don't need strong ASG consideration as reserves.
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One fans opinion

Post  deusXango on Thu Jan 29, 2015 3:32 pm

Sparma I agree with the wisdom in your entire post...our needs are great, but more importantly, we must be realistic about our two key positions; PG and center.

PG: In addition to Jennings mental/maturity challenges he's now faced with uncertain physical challenges as well...given his slightness of build and reliance on speed and quickness to compete, I'm reluctant to count on him long range. "During times of peace is the time to prepare for war." These are peaceful times, in that expectations for championship contention is low, so looking to the future would be prudent, as far as obtaining a stud PG for SVG to groom for stardom. I'm liking D'Angelo Russell...I'm taking him over Spencer Dinwiddie all day long! Spencer has great personality, but the team has too many personable non-producers.

Center: Drummond is our hope for the future, by default and athleticism, but what he's going to need going forward is a bonafide PF who can take his man outside, score on the block, and play with a high I.Q. Monroe is surely gone, but with his limitations and contract demands, that's not as bad as many make it out to be. I'm liking Frank Kaminsky...this kid's immensely talented, a legit 7 footer, and can provide SVG with something he never had in Orlando; the closest he came to pairing a diverse talent with Howard was Hedo Turkoglu and he wasn't a 7 footer...true twin towers...brains and brawn. Andre can concentrate on what he does best and that's rebound (while continuing to learn defense); he's a double-double machine who can average 20/10, if he applies himself...20 rebounds and 10-15 points!

IMHO center and PG are the two most important positions on a contending team...we've got our center, now the question becomes, how badly do we want that PG? If the basketball Gods are kind, we'll be in a position to draft Russell, all 6' 5" of him! Hopefully SVG doesn't do a Dumars and draft "Joe Nobody" from Out of The Way State. With maturity, Dinwiddie wouldn't be a bad backup. I think Kaminsky can come in and start also, especially with a backup like Tolliver, who's won me over...AT is the type backup a contender needs. This seems like we're right back where we started from, in need of a starting SG and SF, right? I don't think SVG is going to trade or give up on F@ckin' Jodie Meeks in one year and I'd hope he's learning that Singler and Butler are a waste of time, so with all that CAP money at our disposal, why can't he and Bower obtain the services of a much better than decent pair of SF's?

I've got Augustin, KCP, Jerebko, Butler and Datome (if anyone will take them) along with some future second round picks to obtain, hopefully, a couple of first round picks in 2015! I think if somebody at the Palace picks up the goddamn phone and starts "horse trading," we can get her done...WTF is Bower doing to earn his money anyway?!
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