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Is It Just Me ?

Post  lemonpen on Mon Jul 14, 2014 1:22 pm

Derrick Rose and four returnees from the 2012 Olympic men's basketball champions are among the 19 players selected for this summer's U.S. national team roster. Kevin Durant, Kevin Love, James Harden and Anthony Davis were the four holdovers announced Monday, along with new additions DeMar DeRozan of Toronto and Chandler Parsons, who is leaving Houston for Dallas. Players will report to training camp in Las Vegas this month, with the roster cut to 12 before the World Cup of Basketball in Spain. ESPN.com - See more at: http://hoopshype.com/rumors.htm#sthash.gNSgECxo.dpuf

If you were Bulls management would you be a little pissed at Rose. Dude hasn't contributed to the success of the team for quite some time now.
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Not So Sure Oracle

Post  WTF on Mon Jul 14, 2014 12:58 pm

Oracle wrote:
Wise wrote: I also think Caron could start and perhaps should. 


Did you see Caron with the Bucks?

He went to OKC because he couldn't cut it as a starter, but he is effective off the bench!

You have to really pay attention to older players or you'll make the mistake both you & Seb are making(see Chauncey).

Perhaps but our current roster doesn't have a better SF. I say you start him but play him at reduce minutes and not starter minutes. IMO opinion neither Butler or Singler would be the best choice to start but if I had to choose between the 2 it's Butler SVG just needs to keep him in the range of 20-25 min, sure give Singler the minutes but come crunch time I would rather have a veteran (Butler) on the floor. I would also want Butler in the first 5 min of the game help setting the tone as well. Unless Singler has drastically improved since last season then perhaps you start Singler
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Here's the Upgrade...

Post  Oracle on Mon Jul 14, 2014 12:40 pm

New Detroit president/coach Stan Van Gundy values outside shooting, and he keeps upgrading in free agency. His top signings – including the two most-recent additions – shot very very well from beyond the arc last season:
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Not really, that's why he's here!

Post  Oracle on Mon Jul 14, 2014 12:27 pm

Wise wrote: I also think Caron could start and perhaps should. 


Did you see Caron with the Bucks?

He went to OKC because he couldn't cut it as a starter, but he is effective off the bench!

You have to really pay attention to older players or you'll make the mistake both you & Seb are making(see Chauncey).
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Post  WTF on Mon Jul 14, 2014 12:19 pm

Sparma wrote:I agree that Gray and Martin could be useful, Wise.  My own guess would have been that Martin'd earn some decent minutes.  I shouldn't have said scrubs, because ever since that TLC song, I've been trying to figure out what a scrub is. It's given a negative sense now.  I grew up thinking of a scrub as a baseball term.  

WISEFAN wrote:
Sparma wrote:I kind of like what SVG's done.  It looks like we'll be a tougher, better shooting, team.  There's no denying that at least some of those guys look like scrubs though (eg Martin).

Asik to the Pelicans.  One more attractive destination gone for Monroe.

Sparma, I questioned both the signings of Martin and Gray initially until SVG defined their purpose.  SVG described them as practice players not to compete for time on the court but to push players in practice he stated that Gray was needed to help Andre development these are likely the sparing partners for Andre, Moose, KCP and Singler.  They may never dress for a game this season.  

Sparma, might I suggest you take a stab at the urban dictionary  lol That term has a life of it's own now that I don't even understand anymore but what it use to mean was simply to identify players with extremely subpar talents. Now as I read some of things the term represent it's a little scary  scratch 
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The Plan The Plan

Post  WTF on Mon Jul 14, 2014 12:07 pm

But Wise... please find another excuse for SVG! Joe stuck to his plan, that's not what anybody cares about, it's the plan that's most important, so defend that, not sticking to it. - Oracle

Of course the plan is important but often it seems as if some think it's business as usual around these parts. "However" Joe often deviated away from his plan the man often spoke with a fork tongue so that's why I mention sticking to a plan to boaster SVG plan. But you're correct Joe is another story and a different topic.

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Sebastian, Lemon and Murph

Post  WTF on Mon Jul 14, 2014 11:58 am

Sebastian, absolutely we need an upgrade at PG, but I'm not that sure we should commit to signing players like Bledsoe, Thomas, to any long term deals until we're able to move Jennings or see how Dinwiddie develops. I'm hoping things speed up for Dinwiddie because I'm intrigue with having a 6'6 PG so I would love to see KCP and Dinwiddie as starters.

Lemonpen, that's a great point as well. these are SVG guys and he shouldn't be hamstrung by Joe's leftovers. Something he's stuck with but there a lot of stuff he can add his own touch.

Sebastian, I also think Caron could start and perhaps should. Here's a question for you and Murph "If we had Caron, Meeks and Augustin starting for us last season as our PG, SG, and SF with any combination of the Big 3 at the PF and C position would they have made the playoffs?
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Post  Sparma on Mon Jul 14, 2014 11:55 am

I agree that Gray and Martin could be useful, Wise. My own guess would have been that Martin'd earn some decent minutes. I shouldn't have said scrubs, because ever since that TLC song, I've been trying to figure out what a scrub is. It's given a negative sense now. I grew up thinking of a scrub as a baseball term.

WISEFAN wrote:
Sparma wrote:I kind of like what SVG's done.  It looks like we'll be a tougher, better shooting, team.  There's no denying that at least some of those guys look like scrubs though (eg Martin).

Asik to the Pelicans.  One more attractive destination gone for Monroe.

Sparma, I questioned both the signings of Martin and Gray initially until SVG defined their purpose.  SVG described them as practice players not to compete for time on the court but to push players in practice he stated that Gray was needed to help Andre development these are likely the sparing partners for Andre, Moose, KCP and Singler.  They may never dress for a game this season.  
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Not Much Difference & Murph

Post  Oracle on Mon Jul 14, 2014 11:55 am

WISEFAN wrote:
Murph wrote:Well, it looks as if SVG's approach to the free agent period was based on quantity, not quality.  I mean Jody Meeks, Aaron Gray, DJ Augustin, Cartier Marin and Carron Bulter???  What a bunch of scrubs.  Realy, Stan...THIS was the best you could do?   thumbs down

Murph, do you really think that there much difference in Meeks and KCP or Caron and Singler or Augustin and Jennings at this point. Clearly the difference is the ability to shoot three.  I can't argue for the signing of Martin and Gray but Meeks, Augustine and Butler could be significant though small upgrades at this stage.  There's no surprise in what SVG doing and he's sticking to his plan Meeks, Butler, and Augustine represents the 2-3 free agent signings he plan on with the 13.5 Million he had at his disposal.  

No these are not eye popping pickups, but blowing the 13.5 on signing Stephenson, or Deng would have been opposite of what he said he would do and really not address the shooting woes of this team.  I would like to see some eye popping move but that will have to come at the expense of trading either Josh or Moose.  Otherwise I think SVG is on track so far.

Plus who knows things could change because Augustin and Meeks haven't inked their offers as of yet.

There is a big difference in these latest signings! Adding two players that not only played in the very competitive playoffs, and not only played, but played exceptional ball, is big!

They're not scrubs, they're role players on good teams, but that isn't us yet, and IMO, they're tons better than the guys they're going to replace, giving us toughness and smarts!

But Wise... please find another excuse for SVG! Joe stuck to his plan, that's not what anybody cares about, it's the plan that's most important, so defend that, not sticking to it.

Seb correctly sees that Caron is a backup, sort of like Chauncey was supposed to be, which is why I said it gives the starting position to Singler, pending any Monroe S&T!

If Augustin doesn't start on day one, he's going to eventually gain more of SVG's trust as the season wears on!

@Murph: BTW, good observation on the lack of defense, and what's with this love of tiny guards?
Jennings, Augustin, ? - IMO, that may start the season, but I expect it to reverse quickly!
KCP, Meeks,
Butler, Singler, Martin - Singler starts, Butler isn't a capable starter anymore!
Monroe/Smith, Smith/Monroe, JJ
Drummond, Monroe, Gray

Reserves:  Dinwiddie, ? - Based on the healing charts I've seen, he should be ready physically by the start of the season! However, having missed everything, his earliest projected starting ability, IMO, would be the all star break. At that point, it would depend on if we're contending or tanking. If contending, then it's next season!


Last edited by Oracle on Mon Jul 14, 2014 11:57 am; edited 1 time in total
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Where's The D?

Post  Murph on Mon Jul 14, 2014 11:52 am

Another observation about SVG's free agent signees is that they all have a reputation for their lack of defense.

Meeks, Augustin, Butler and Martin are all defensive liabilities.

Is this an indication that SVG does not value defense? If so, that's going to be a big problem moving forward.
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Rotation?

Post  Murph on Mon Jul 14, 2014 11:39 am

Jennings, Augustin, ?
KCP, Meeks,
Butler, Singler, Martin
Monroe/Smith, Smith/Monroe, JJ
Drummond, Monroe, Gray

Reserves:  Dinwiddie, ?
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Post  WTF on Mon Jul 14, 2014 11:34 am

Sparma wrote:I kind of like what SVG's done.  It looks like we'll be a tougher, better shooting, team.  There's no denying that at least some of those guys look like scrubs though (eg Martin).

Asik to the Pelicans.  One more attractive destination gone for Monroe.

Sparma, I questioned both the signings of Martin and Gray initially until SVG defined their purpose. SVG described them as practice players not to compete for time on the court but to push players in practice he stated that Gray was needed to help Andre development these are likely the sparing partners for Andre, Moose, KCP and Singler. They may never dress for a game this season.
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SVG adds D.J. Augstine and Caron Butler ...

Post  Sebastian on Mon Jul 14, 2014 11:26 am

WISEFAN wrote:
Go Stones! wrote:
WISEFAN wrote:are you hating DJ Augustine signing as well?  lol This tells me that not only is Siva doomed so is Bynum and he just might put pressure on Jennings ass to play better.

I have a sneaky got gut feeling that Portland and the Pistons will announce a sign and trade sending Moose, Mitchell and Bynum to Portland for Batum and Lopez. Just my gut feeling I don't think this a dead deal.......

The question is if he can get him.  Monroe and monobrow would be good together.

Anderson would be a good addition but I think we can do better.  

Sebastian SVG just signed Caron Butler to a 1year deal after signing Augustin sound like some house cleaning is in the making. Could it be Bynum, Siva, Mitchell, Monroe, JJ, Datome are all on their collective way out the door  tb  Got to Love It Stan Da Man!

But Caron kind of kill any hope for Batum unless Singler on his way out as well.   I like both signings Butler and Augustin and wouldn't mind starting Caron at SF because he can shoot the rock.  

Well let's put it this way: D.J. Augustine is a very good back-up. I prefer D.J. Augustine, as a back-up over any of the other rumored possibilities (i.e Brian Roberts, Jameer Nelson, etc.). Truth be told, it was Augustine who saved the Bulls' season, last year. I respect the way the dude was able to resurrect his career last season, after a disappointing year in Indiana, during the previous season. Augustine can run an offense, hit the three, and knock down free throws. But, he is not a starter and cannot guard the position. Problem is he may even be better than B. Jennings, as he has a better control of the offense.

So, as a back-up option at the PG position, I'd say his signing at $3 million/2 years is a good purchase.

Another problem, WE currently have 4 back-up point guards on the roster: B. Jennings, D.J. Augustine, Wil B., and Peyton Siva. WE still need a starting PG. Maybe, just maybe SVG can move Moose for Eric Bledsoe. There has got to be a trade, somewhere in the mix.

Caron Butler is not a solution at the starting SF position. The 34 year old journeyman, is almost washed, but he can serve as a good option as a back-up at the SF position. His contract is not too taxing, either, as the second year is a team option. I'd say this is an adequate signing, if he is not expected to become the starting SF.

WE still need a competent, starting PG and a real, starting SF. But, on the surface, these are decent signings.

There is hope also that more moves will follow, as OUR roster is currently blotted with 18(?) players.
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Not Much Difference

Post  lemonpen on Mon Jul 14, 2014 11:26 am

WISEFAN wrote:
Murph wrote:Well, it looks as if SVG's approach to the free agent period was based on quantity, not quality.  I mean Jody Meeks, Aaron Gray, DJ Augustin, Cartier Marin and Carron Bulter???  What a bunch of scrubs.  Realy, Stan...THIS was the best you could do?   thumbs down

Murph, do you really think that there much difference in Meeks and KCP or Caron and Singler or Augustin and Jennings at this point. Clearly the difference is the ability to shoot three.  I can't argue for the signing of Martin and Gray but Meeks, Augustine and Butler could be significant though small upgrades at this stage.  There's no surprise in what SVG doing and he's sticking to his plan Meeks, Butler, and Augustine represents the 2-3 free agent signings he plan on with the 13.5 Million he had at his disposal.  

No these are not eye popping pickups, but blowing the 13.5 on signing Stephenson, or Deng would have been opposite of what he said he would do and really not address the shooting woes of this team.  I would like to see some eye popping move but that will have to come at the expense of trading either Josh or Moose.  Otherwise I think SVG is on track so far.

Plus who knows things could change because Augustin and Meeks haven't inked their offers as of yet.

Well stated Wise.
I might add that one difference is Butler, Meeks, DJ and Gray will be SVGs guys, not leftovers from the prior regime.
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Post  Sparma on Mon Jul 14, 2014 11:23 am

I kind of like what SVG's done. It looks like we'll be a tougher, better shooting, team. There's no denying that at least some of those guys look like scrubs though (eg Martin).

Asik to the Pelicans. One more attractive destination gone for Monroe.
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Not Much Difference

Post  WTF on Mon Jul 14, 2014 11:16 am

Murph wrote:"Murph, do you really think that there much difference in Meeks and KCP or Caron and Singler or Augustin and Jennings at this point."

No...not much difference.

I guess the point was to turn over the roster, and try to improve the chemistry.  Another approach would have been to try to up-grade the roster.

That's kind of hard to do with only 13.5 million and glaring needs at three positions.  No doubt there's some work still needed but chemistry and three point shooting is a great place to start.  I think meaningful upgrades are going to have to come via trades.

Augustin, I like his numbers 14pt 4ast isn't bad and could improve greatly with the right coach. Earlier I was suggesting we attempt to sign Pierce, but I think this Caron signing could be just as valuable solely on the experience factor and leadership.  Neither are bad deals and the beautiful thing is that team options are on the 2nd year.  

I guess the upgrade is that every player SVG has made an offer have far better shooting percentages even if statistically their overall production as far as pts, rebound and assist aren't that different from some players being replaced. Chemistry was a glaring issue as well.
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Not Much Difference

Post  Murph on Mon Jul 14, 2014 11:02 am

"Murph, do you really think that there much difference in Meeks and KCP or Caron and Singler or Augustin and Jennings at this point."

No...not much difference.

I guess the point was to turn over the roster, and try to improve the chemistry. Another approach would have been to try to up-grade the roster.
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Murph It's Not That Bad Perhaps Not Bad At All

Post  WTF on Mon Jul 14, 2014 10:58 am

Murph wrote:Well, it looks as if SVG's approach to the free agent period was based on quantity, not quality.  I mean Jody Meeks, Aaron Gray, DJ Augustin, Cartier Marin and Carron Bulter???  What a bunch of scrubs.  Realy, Stan...THIS was the best you could do?   thumbs down

Murph, do you really think that there much difference in Meeks and KCP or Caron and Singler or Augustin and Jennings at this point. Clearly the difference is the ability to shoot three.  I can't argue for the signing of Martin and Gray but Meeks, Augustine and Butler could be significant though small upgrades at this stage.  There's no surprise in what SVG doing and he's sticking to his plan Meeks, Butler, and Augustine represents the 2-3 free agent signings he plan on with the 13.5 Million he had at his disposal.  

No these are not eye popping pickups, but blowing the 13.5 on signing Stephenson, or Deng would have been opposite of what he said he would do and really not address the shooting woes of this team.  I would like to see some eye popping move but that will have to come at the expense of trading either Josh or Moose.  Otherwise I think SVG is on track so far.

Plus who knows things could change because Augustin and Meeks haven't inked their offers as of yet.
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DJ Augustin and Caron Bulter?

Post  Murph on Mon Jul 14, 2014 10:38 am

Well, it looks as if SVG's approach to the free agent period was based on quantity, not quality.  I mean Jody Meeks, Aaron Gray, DJ Augustin, Cartier Marin and Carron Bulter???  What a bunch of scrubs.  Realy, Stan...THIS was the best you could do?   thumbs down

Oh well, I suppose Augustin is a slight upgrade over Jennings, Bynum and Siva, and his addition is going to force Bynum or Siva off the roster.

And the addition of Bulter is probably going to force Datome off the roster.

It looks as if one of SVG's objectives is to turn over a large percentage of the roster, and force out several of the more marginal players Joe has signed over the years...Bynum, Datome, CV, Harrellson, Siva, Stuckey, etc.


Last edited by Murph on Mon Jul 14, 2014 11:03 am; edited 2 times in total
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Re: FORUM

Post  Sparma on Mon Jul 14, 2014 9:43 am

So our lists are very similar in length. Mine includes two names, yours three. And I'd include Josh Smith based on his career performance, but not based on last year, so we're not that far apart there.

And thanks for that blast from the past, Deus. I'll confess I had high hopes for Bison when he was signed, even though the contract seemed high. RIP.

WISEFAN wrote:
Sparma wrote:Clearly I think more highly of Monroe than you do, Wise, but I'd be genuinely interested in your response to a question inspired by a comment at detnews.  Someone wrote in saying something like: aside from Drummond, we haven't seen the likes of Monroe for ages.

My question is: which Pistons would you rank as equal or higher in short or long term value than Monroe during the lean years, since last making the conference finals (i.e., not including the holdovers from the great teams).  I mean based on their production as Pistons players, excluding someone like AI.

I'd only rank AD above Monroe in long term value.  I take you'd choose Josh Smith over Monroe, at least in the short term.  In a strange choice, I'd pick Calderon as being on par, in the short term.

So my list consists of AD as superior to Monroe in long term value and Calderon as roughly equal in short term value.

What's your view?  I'd be curious to hear from others too as to how they'd rank Monroe's value compared to other Pistons during the lean years.

Sparma, Long term I would have to agree AD is superior to Monroe and no doubt on the short term I'm choosing Josh Smith over Monroe but I would also say that Stuckey was on par in the short term.  Though Monroe makes my stomach turn based on his production at his position no we haven't had a player like Monroe but it hasn't translated to being a winning team.  The last time we had a player with that kind of product was at that position was Laimbeer.
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Question about Monroe/ Wise

Post  WTF on Mon Jul 14, 2014 8:58 am

Sparma wrote:Clearly I think more highly of Monroe than you do, Wise, but I'd be genuinely interested in your response to a question inspired by a comment at detnews.  Someone wrote in saying something like: aside from Drummond, we haven't seen the likes of Monroe for ages.

My question is: which Pistons would you rank as equal or higher in short or long term value than Monroe during the lean years, since last making the conference finals (i.e., not including the holdovers from the great teams).  I mean based on their production as Pistons players, excluding someone like AI.

I'd only rank AD above Monroe in long term value.  I take you'd choose Josh Smith over Monroe, at least in the short term.  In a strange choice, I'd pick Calderon as being on par, in the short term.

So my list consists of AD as superior to Monroe in long term value and Calderon as roughly equal in short term value.

What's your view?  I'd be curious to hear from others too as to how they'd rank Monroe's value compared to other Pistons during the lean years.

Sparma, Long term I would have to agree AD is superior to Monroe and no doubt on the short term I'm choosing Josh Smith over Monroe but I would also say that Stuckey was on par in the short term. Though Monroe makes my stomach turn based on his production at his position no we haven't had a player like Monroe but it hasn't translated to being a winning team. The last time we had a player with that kind of product was at that position was Laimbeer.
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Meeks

Post  Oracle on Mon Jul 14, 2014 6:10 am

I took a quick look at Meeks as he entered the NBA at Draft Express, and one jumped out at me!

He has a wing span of 6'4, but Knight, who is one inch shorter has a 6'7 wingspan, which explains why Knight is such a good perimeter defender!

Meeks also lacks Knight's explosive speed, but he's still a good rim attacker.

More Meeks info here - Jodie Meeks - Draft Express


BTW: I like the Augustin signing a lot more than the Meeks signing, and time will tell who's more important, but at 3M/yr, that's a STEAL!
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This is just WRONG...

Post  Oracle on Mon Jul 14, 2014 6:01 am


Ricky Gervais   
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I always wondered what "Schweinsteiger" meant...
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Re: FORUM

Post  Phil1980boy on Mon Jul 14, 2014 4:51 am

"#1. Why must we give Monroe a max deal?"

Well D.X. As we all know the Pistons don't have to give Monroe anything. They can simple let the guy walk.

On the business side of things, It's Faulk's soul responsibility to get Monroe max dollars. He did the exact same thing for Roy Hibbert when he was A restricted free agent with Indiana.

All I'm saying is don't take it personal. don't necessary believe that Monroe wants out of Detroit. if Monroe really wanted out of Detroit he would have sign the qualifying offer and been done with everything because A sign and trade situation is in favor of Detroit not Monroe.

They just holding out for the LA Lakers, NY Knicks, Dallas Mavs, overpay type of offer to come along. IF it never comes then he will take the 60 million, 5 year deal the Pistons have on the table.

Faulk is holding out for A max contract offer. It's that simple.
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Faulk is doing what A good agent should do. hold out for A Max offer

Post  deusXango on Mon Jul 14, 2014 2:30 am

Phil1980boy wrote:Faulk is waiting to see if the Lakers or some other team who could not land anybody will offer him A max contract. That's it. It's that simple. N.O is out. Washington is out. Atl  still has some money..etc.

We will see

#1. Why must we give Monroe a max deal? #2. Joe Dumars is no longer involved in decision making, anywhere in the NBA. #3. Won't happen.  finger wag 
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Re: FORUM

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