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FORUM - Page 7 Empty Trade?

Post  Sparma Sat May 24, 2014 7:35 am

I like that rumored trade, Philboy, even though I understand that Williams' isn't what he once was.

Phil1980boy wrote:Some of the guys were talking about it A few weeks ago. I did not see it going down but when you take A long look at it D.Williams would not be A bad addition if you can lose Smith and Jennings. And D.Williams has A trade kicker. OUCH!!!

He still might be worth it to get rid of Smith and Jennings. If the Pistons can pull it off go for it.
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FORUM - Page 7 Empty Word on the streets and Piston forum is D.Williams is our best shot

Post  Phil-Good Sat May 24, 2014 5:43 am

Some of the guys were talking about it A few weeks ago. I did not see it going down but when you take A long look at it D.Williams would not be A bad addition if you can lose Smith and Jennings. And D.Williams has A trade kicker. OUCH!!!

He still might be worth it to get rid of Smith and Jennings. If the Pistons can pull it off go for it.
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FORUM - Page 7 Empty The lost draft pick was the stamp for the end of Dumars run

Post  Phil-Good Sat May 24, 2014 5:24 am

Joe last few years have been nightmare on elm street. I believe Joe was making desperate moves in A attempt to save his job along with A rookie owner pressing for playoff when his team was not even close to being ready. So now we stuck with Josh Smith, B.Jennings and no 2014 Pick.

It's over. I am so ready to close that chapter and move forward.

I want to see Van Gundy focus on the lottery picks and good players that we do have. Everybody talk trash about Singler but I like him as the starting 3 man moving forward.

I want to see the Pistons playing team basketball again. This past season was so boring and not fun to watch. Out of 82 games only about 7 games were fun to watch. Van Gundy says he not looking to make changes until training camp? Bull S.H.I.T. If you wait that long, you waited too long. Get on the phone and dump some of these turds. Thank the basketball Gods Stuckey and Charlie V are history. Get rid of Josh Smith and B.Jennings and you already have A successful season no matter how many games you win or lose.
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FORUM - Page 7 Empty Deus asks "...how does paying $39 million for a #9 pick make sense?"

Post  Sparma Fri May 23, 2014 11:57 pm

A number of responses.

As best I remember what was at issue was the last two years of Gordon's 13.2 million dollar contract.  So, the question should concern 26 mil rather than 39 mil. Also, I doubt many Pistons fans would have objected if Gores had just amnestied Gordon for the last year of contract, worth 13 mil.

And maybe a picky point: the #9 pick (or whichever pick) would have been free to Detroit, if Gores simply hadn't taken action.  So asking why he should spend $39 for the #9 sounds doubly inaccurate to me.  The question is more whether Gores selling a #9 for a certain return was worth it.

Beyond that, I think you raise an important point, Deus.  Why should Gores spent good money to correct a problem created before his watch? As things turned out, pure financial self-interest suggests that a different path than the one taken would have been comparable. Moderate generosity and concern for the team dictated a taking a different path than that taken.

Here's one analogy that occurs to me.   Let's posit that I face a problem of comparable weight to what Gores faced with the Pistons and that I can lessen the problem by spending, in relation to my net worth, a comparable amount of money.  Let's say futher that my net worth is $100,000.  A few years back Forbes listed Gores' net worth at 2.5 billion (it's likely gone out).  Let's put the price of Gordon's buy out at 25 mil.  That's 1% of his net income.  The comparable expenditure in terms of my 100,000 would be $1000 (or $500 if you just buy out the last year).  If I didn't spend that 1000 (or 500) to help address a serious problem with a project important to me, I'd rightfully be seen as cheap.

And bear in mind that amnestying Gordon's contract would, by itself, cost Gores nothing more than simply paying Gordon as a player according to the terms of the contract. What additional cost would there have been to Gores for amnestying Gordon in his last year? That's actually an unknown. If a minimum salary player (a rook) took Gordon's place on the roster, the added cost would be less than $500,000. Of course, signing a Josh Smith, instead, to take the roster spot would add the full 13.2 cap space vacated by the amnesty.

Thinking about the finances of what the team actually did is another matter. In the deal that Gores/ Dumars were able to make, it wasn't really 26 million at stake.  The Pistons had to take back a year's salary of Corey Maggette, which I remember being a hair below Gordon's.  So the net savings was roughly 13 mil, rather than 26 mil.  So the #9 pick was in effect sold, not for 39 mil, or even 26 mil, but for 13 mil.  And that 13 mil wasn't pure savings, but just gaining 13 mil cap space a year early. With that one year early cap space, the team paid most of the first year of the contract for Josh Smith.  What we got for the #9 pick was the better (or worse?) part of Smith's first year contract.

Losing the #9 pick costs Gores financially, in ways that wouldn't happen if he held on to the pick, whether through amnesty or just standing pat. First, I'm not sure how much revenue drafting a Marcus Smart would bring in, but having an added sense of excitement for the team would been worth a decent chunk of change in added revenue. Secondly, as outlined at PP, a #9 playe (let's say a player of the ilk of Marcus Smart) on a first contract delivers a higher level of production per dollar than a comparable veteran (an upgraded Stuckey at 7/8 mil+?).  It's likely going to be expensive to try to get comparable production. Amnesty or standing pat would have prevented that. 

If Gordon really was intolerable on the team, amnestying him, certainly for a year, now looks like the preferred option, even from a purely financial point of view to what they actually did.  And failing to uphold the critical interest of the team looks cheap for someone with 2.5 billion net worth who had a unique, time-restricted, opportunity, in a salary cap league, to have a major impact for what would be equivalent to a modest outlay of cash for someone with a more ordinary net worth.
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FORUM - Page 7 Empty Don

Post  Oracle Fri May 23, 2014 10:40 pm

Don, there's nothing for you to buy... FACTS are facts!

Give me a list of GM's with a better record, and then you've got something to talk about.
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FORUM - Page 7 Empty Dan Gilbert's comments

Post  cool breeze Fri May 23, 2014 9:25 pm

I wonder if Mr. Gilbert would give Detroit his number one pick if Mr. Gores agreed to take a look at Dan's property in downtown Detroit for purposes of moving the team there. We sure wouldn't get a response like Stan's from Joe Dumars. Isn't Gilbert one of Joe's close buddies? Maybe our Pistons have had such bad luck lately because they play at the Palace instead of downtown Detroit. Perhaps Joe is innocent of any wrongdoing after all. It is all bad Karma because the Pistons are not playing where Gilbert has some of his investments. Gilbert sure seems to have a lot of luck on his side relating ping pong balls. Will Labron jump ship in miami so he can party in downtown Cleveland during the winter months? James could juice things up a bit before announcing his latest move back home and state that he had considered the Pistons but they don't play in downtown Detroit.

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FORUM - Page 7 Empty I am not buying the love you fans are giving Joe Dumars. He has set back the Detroit Pistons with bogus poorly thought out decisions

Post  cool breeze Fri May 23, 2014 7:04 pm

The day that John Hammond left the front office, Joe Dumars was on his own to do the work of an NBA GM. I have heard that Hammond was the brains behind every good decision that was made during Joe's tenure. I will exclude the draft choice of Drummond. That was a good decision. We all love Joe Dumars as a player but I believe he had no business every being considered for the Piston's President. He needed guidance and once his guide left for the Bucks, Joe was easy prey for all other NBA executives. Some of you are so funny with the logic you are using relating to Joe having his hands tied behind his back much of the time. I think that Dumars had a blank check for many years to do whatever he wanted to do because Davidson was senile and simply thought that Joe walked on water. Joe Dumars was only concerned with Joe Dumars and that comes out loud and clear to me. He controlled the press and seldom received a negative comment with many bone head moves that nobody in their right mind would have made. He wanted to keep the reputation of being a President and GM of a NBA team that had a lower payroll than most teams in the league. He thought that he would be judged in the end on economics and other GMs knew that and took advantage. He was making silly insane decisions on players based on what? It was obvious that he had no idea how to create a winning program at all. He couldn't identify that Detroit had too many players that didn't fit together. He wasn't aware that he had signed all of this players with no regard to their ability to play effective defense. How can anyone make excuses for that kind of behavior. And earlier on in Joe's career, it was clear to me that he had hired a horrible staff of scouts to advise on draft picks. And he was always eager to please Michael Jordan. Michael said Joe needed to draft Rodney White instead of Joe Johnson and Joe did it. JM was laughing behind Joe's back over that even. And this last foolish trade involving Ben Gordon involved Jordan. Who could guess? I blame Gores but Joe had to advise that this was the smart thing to do. Dumars leaves this team to Van Gundy. You can't do a worse job than Joe did. Stan has that going for him. But this bleeding heard stuff by some of you posters makes me feel you are thinking with your hearts rather than using logic and reason. I could respect Dumars if he would be a man and admit to the Piston fans that he has screwed up this team for years to come. Was he above everyone else when he failed to take responsibility for giving away Affalo. With Affalo instead of Stuckey, and with Stuckey playing with Brandon Knight and C. Middleton, we could be having some real hope right now. Imagine blending those players in with Drummond and even Monroe and Smith. Right now we have nothing. We have no team and few capable players who are capable of playing team orientated basketball. Plug in some of the roster players if you want and tell yourselves that those guys are capable of guarding Paul George or Labron James if they only had better coaching. You have to be kidding. But everyone has a right to their own reality or a aright to remain in a dream like state. But have you been watching the real NBA players who are playing in the Playoffs? Did you see even one player play ball like those players? Could even one Piston player make the Spurs team? Singler is the kind of player who might be able to play for the Spurs in the future. But the rest are way behind the curve relating to the mental game you need to have in the playoffs. How do the Spurs or the Thunder keep getting smart young players? 

I think that Stan Van Gundy if given enough time will be forming a team like the Spurs. That team does such a great job with their young player or new vets getting them functioning within their system. Joe Dumars has no concept how any of that works. He was a really good player and that is where it ends relating to basketball.

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FORUM - Page 7 Empty Sterling, Ilitch ad Gores

Post  WTF Fri May 23, 2014 1:30 pm

Murph wrote:I see Donald Sterling has agreed to sell the Clips...hopfully to Magic Johnson.   clap 

Not quite a done deal yet. The good is that Donald knows he has to sell, but his wife is going to complicate this if she tries to retain any amount of ownership when the league wants a 100% of the team sold. I don't care who owns the clips as long as there no connection o the sell to anyone associated with Sterling. What would be nice is Ilitch buy them and then swapping franchises with Gores so he can become the new owner of the Pistons as it should have been to begin with.
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FORUM - Page 7 Empty Good Move

Post  Murph Fri May 23, 2014 1:10 pm

I see Donald Sterling has agreed to sell the Clips...hopfully to Magic Johnson.  clap 

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FORUM - Page 7 Empty Dumars

Post  Sparma Fri May 23, 2014 12:23 pm

Thanks Oracle! Sounds like we agree that Dumars was both the author of his own fate and a victim of circumstances. Not unlike some of the rest of us. And in the early days he was both the author of his fate and the beneficiary of luck. Who would have predicted that losing your young superstar would be just the thing needed to elevate the team to the next level?

Oracle wrote:
Sparma wrote:I thought Goodwill had some good stuff in his column including the following nicely put assessment: "The Pistons wanted a quick turnaround via cap flexibility, which begat bringing in Josh Smith and Brandon Jennings. Now one wonders if the cycle of one Band-Aid after another will end with Van Gundy in free agency or on the trade market, or if it’ll continue."

Beat writers need to balance maintaining their sources within the organization, selling newspapers, and telling the truth.  Tough gig. - You ain't lying!

As I see it, Dumars, with his back up against the wall (due to his own decisions as well as to the impatience and tightness of Gores) made three massive, high risk, gambles: the Gordon trade, signing Smith, and the Jennings trade.  I still have some hope for the latter two, but each of those three gambles has turned out very badly.  I see the band aids more as the signing of Gigi and an aging Chauncey, in search of the spacing that would clearly be necessary.  Didn't work.  Gores' playoff mandate made Joe reluctant to put control of the ball in the hands of a rookie, as he should have. - IMO, when the history of Joe's tenure is finally written, we'll see that in the last few years that he was crippled by changes in ownership, but he read the tea leaves badly, and made it worse! However, make no mistake, under stable ownership like Mr. D, Joe would have done better!

Gores' poor assessment of the state of the team, his impatience, his cheapness made for a disastrously nice fit with Dumars' poor decisions, with the draft night fiasco capping off the ugly mixture painfully but poetically. - So true!

Now it's time to move on though, without forgetting.   My suspicions of Gores will likely linger for years.  Still, he's done the best thing he could to allay my fears: spend a ton of money to put a smart basketball guy with lots of leverage in charge for a long, long time.  He ain't buying that out that contract any time soon.   There's a mountain to climb, but I'm convinced we'll make steps in the right direction.  There may be some regression (early) next season, if players resist the mandate to play D and to take smarter shots.  That will itself be part of the progress though, figuring out who deserves which minutes and which players just can't be part of the long term plan.

Sparma, this is a very good post!!!
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FORUM - Page 7 Empty Re: FORUM

Post  merc Fri May 23, 2014 12:01 pm

Oracle, I'm pickin' up whatcha layin' down about Joe... We sacrificed our respected and beloved player for a ship run... I wouldn't be surprised if Joe never steps a foot in the Palace again... that's a shame because when you think about it we have a tremendous amount to be thankful for... as the saying goes "you get hired to be fired"... it's inevitable that anyone hired will eventually become hated by the once faithful.... if we brought in Laim or Zeke they would follow the same path as Joe sooner or later.
You're right that Joe's contributions far out weighs the bad... and there is nothing easy about keeping a winning playoff team after the core has run their course.... While I hated the moves for BG & CV that free agent class was one of the worst in recent history... maybe we could have got Boozer or maybe not... fans would have called for Joe's head if he just sat on his hands and didn't over spend on these guys (which was the right move)... We could sit here and say Joe shoulda done this or that.. truth is if any of us was running the team we woulda been fired by now for bad impulsive moves.
My conscience is clear... Joe stands tall and will always be looked in high regard for what he was able to accomplish.
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FORUM - Page 7 Empty Continuity n stuff

Post  merc Fri May 23, 2014 11:45 am

Well said Murph... it also helps to have players that defy age... while it looks like the Pistons had completely run their course Joe tried to keep the core together.. it just wasn't gonna work (even if we kept CB who was one of our worst playoff disappearing acts)... what the Spurs managed to do is start with stability in upper management and coaching... these are people that understand the balance of being tough leaders and respected associates... it's interesting to watch Pop chew out Parker and 5 minutes later joking around with him... he goes the extra mile and becomes part of their life off the court.... You get the feeling that the Spurs could bring in Jennings & Smith and still make it work.... your points are valid that this is a consistent system that just needs it's annual tweaks to keep the highly tuned motor running... each year they add new features to the playbook while considering the players input... consistency, openness & adaptability = formula for success.... hopefully Gores got it right this time by starting with core management to build the right foundation to grow a winning culture... the revolving door is a sure way to fail.
Don taught me how to run on sentences  lol 
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FORUM - Page 7 Empty Continuity

Post  Murph Fri May 23, 2014 10:34 am

Once again, the San Antonio Spurs are proving why continuity is important. Do the Spurs blow up their team and fire their coach everytime they don't make it to the NBA Finals?...no.

Every time the Spurs don't make it to the finals, they look for help in the draft...Leonard, Slitter...or look for a marginal free agents that can help them out without breaking the bank and ruining their salary structure...Belinelli, Diaw, Mills, etc. And they add those young players and free agent role players to their aging core...Duncan, Parket, Ginobili.

That's the formula the Spurs have been using to stay on top of the NBA for almost two decades now. And through it all, they've had one one change of GMs and no coaching changes. In fact, the last time the Spurs had a losing record and missed the playoffs was 17 years ago, and the last time they won fewer than 50 games was 14 years ago, and that was a strike shortened season.


With that in mind, can you imagine if Joe had just kept Flip Saunders, and all of his aging vets (Wallace, Wallace, Billups, Hamilton, McDysse, Prince), and all of his developing young players (Afflalo, Stuckey, Johnson), and drafted well, and added cheap FA role players?

Where Joe Dumars lost it, was thinking that putting together that Championship team was due to his own genius, and not just luck. Joe thought he could dismantle one Championship team and rebuild it into another Championship team pretty much any time he wanted to, based on his skill in evaluating talent.

But the problem is chemistry, which is difficult to define and reproduce. When Joe dumped the aging vets, he also dumped the winning chemistry that went along with them.

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FORUM - Page 7 Empty Re-posting a good 'un

Post  deusXango Fri May 23, 2014 8:55 am

lemonpen wrote:
Oracle wrote:It's not the end of the world, but mentally, it was a direct asteroid the size of the moon hit in the gut!
Yeah, but a long period on the throne helped get over it.

Like Wise said, it hurts even more since Joe decided to pass on not one, but two sure fire star players in Burke & MCW in the last draft! I'm not saying that KCP is trash, but we needed a world class PG a lot more!

But on we go!

DX is right, no Stuckey, no way! A change in culture demands that we rid ourselves of Stuckey, and the good thing about Stuckey... we don't have to do a damn thing to peel that scab off, just let him walk!
Hell Yeah  !!!

Which means that we have a good chunk of change to go after FA's, and we've also got some decent trade bait!

Potential players on the block: Jennings, Josh, JJ, Bynum, and Monroe under the right circumstances!
Loosing WillieB in addition to Stuckey would leave Stan with no explosive (sic) scorer off the bench.  Don't be surprised if WB is safe.

If Kyle Singler lives up to all the hype and experience he's been given, he should be the explosive scorer off the bench. WB has to go!
Look, I could roll with either Josh or Monroe, but would prefer Monroe, but if it isn't in the cards and he want out, let's make it happen!
They're evenly ill equipped to lead the parade but only one of them possessess a game that is still growing.  

The bottom line is that we have assets and cash to do something special, and seriously, I do mean special! If SVG can get us 2-4 new players that fit, this is a real ECF contender after a season of hard work getting culture and defense together!

So while we lost the pick, we're not toast by any measure... time to get busy!!!
It sure would be nice to see one of last seasons kids take a mammoth step this summer.
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FORUM - Page 7 Empty Heyyy!

Post  deusXango Fri May 23, 2014 8:41 am

Oracle wrote:
@DX - BK7 didn't have a turnover problem! I guess you might have said the same thing about Kobe, Wade, or any number of 2nd year players! The problem is youth and inexperience, something that will take care of itself as we've seen Knight progress this past year!
Oracle, I was a big supporter of BK7, while he was here, and feel it was a big mistake to give up on him so soon (as was the case with Middleton). The excuse used by those who didn't support BK7 was his turnovers, so I posted what I did sarcastically. My criticism was aimed at Jennings.
We have a serious problem in Piston land of not being able to distinguish between youth and inexperience and what a finished product may look like! Some expect perfection from day one, not recognizing that different players follow different paths to their final destination.
This is a reason, for the life of me, I can't understand why some fans are in an uproar over Josh Smith's signing for PF, but playing him out of position at SF; the man is a top talent so why don't we give him a chance to prove himself, as a Piston, doing what he's historically done...I don't care if he's 180 lbs.!!
We've got to stop letting perfect be the enemy of good enough!!!
Hear, hear!!
Oracle, that was a top notch post and I agree with everything you said, even the misunderstood/unnecessary critiques you fired off my way. Good stuff.
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FORUM - Page 7 Empty Joe Dumars Killed my Pappy

Post  Oracle Fri May 23, 2014 7:51 am

There are some that just hate Joe Dumars! It reminds me of this...

"You killed my pappy," said the youth, "and my pappy's pappy. And his pappy's pappy. And my brothers Jethro, Hank, Hoss, Red, Peregrine, Marsh, Junior, Dizzy, Luke, Peregrine, George and all the others. I'm callin' you out, lawman."

Folks, Joe made mistakes, but what GM doesn't and how many of them have 2 finals apperances, one win, and 6 conference apperances on their resume... they're few... very few!!!

All I'm saying is that the full picture is a better view of the man, and I'm going to try to be less abrasive towards him on his way out the door!

Joe Dumars didn't kill our Pappy!

FORUM - Page 7 5538708784_71406dbb3b_z_ebe0e42d-14ee-4e33-9392-cb9177faeb65
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FORUM - Page 7 Empty Stuff

Post  Oracle Fri May 23, 2014 7:33 am

@Stones - If I was given truth drugs, I would have to say that the best starting frontcourt would be Monroe & Josh with Drummond coming off the bench!

Honestly Drummonds defense right now is only marginally better than Monroe's because Monroe is arguably the better defender of centers... incapable of going for all of the ball fakes that get Dre! Of course Josh is by far the better PF!

On Jennings, he's worse than Stuckey, IMO! He's useless on offense and defense! He's SLOW, can't break down defenses, and can't shoot.. he's got to go ASAP! If he was bball smart or could play defense, there might be some hope, but none of that is true!

@DX - BK7 didn't have a turnover problem! I guess you might have said the same thing about Kobe, Wade, or any number of 2nd year players! The problem is youth and inexperience, something that will take care of itself as we've seen Knight progress this past year!

We have a serious problem in Piston land of not being able to distinguish between youth and inexperience and what a finished product may look like! Some expect perfection from day one, not recognizing that different players follow different paths to their final destination.

Piston fans would have traded Tony Parker, or Russell Westbrook because that would have been classified as turnover artist and shooting guards disguised as PG's. Parker is there, Westbrook is still on his journey!

We've got to stop letting perfect be the enemy of good enough!!!
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FORUM - Page 7 Empty So nice, it deserves to be read twice!

Post  Oracle Fri May 23, 2014 7:14 am

Sparma wrote:I thought Goodwill had some good stuff in his column including the following nicely put assessment: "The Pistons wanted a quick turnaround via cap flexibility, which begat bringing in Josh Smith and Brandon Jennings. Now one wonders if the cycle of one Band-Aid after another will end with Van Gundy in free agency or on the trade market, or if it’ll continue."

Beat writers need to balance maintaining their sources within the organization, selling newspapers, and telling the truth.  Tough gig. - You ain't lying!

As I see it, Dumars, with his back up against the wall (due to his own decisions as well as to the impatience and tightness of Gores) made three massive, high risk, gambles: the Gordon trade, signing Smith, and the Jennings trade.  I still have some hope for the latter two, but each of those three gambles has turned out very badly.  I see the band aids more as the signing of Gigi and an aging Chauncey, in search of the spacing that would clearly be necessary.  Didn't work.  Gores' playoff mandate made Joe reluctant to put control of the ball in the hands of a rookie, as he should have. - IMO, when the history of Joe's tenure is finally written, we'll see that in the last few years that he was crippled by changes in ownership, but he read the tea leaves badly, and made it worse! However, make no mistake, under stable ownership like Mr. D, Joe would have done better!

Gores' poor assessment of the state of the team, his impatience, his cheapness made for a disastrously nice fit with Dumars' poor decisions, with the draft night fiasco capping off the ugly mixture painfully but poetically. - So true!

Now it's time to move on though, without forgetting.   My suspicions of Gores will likely linger for years.  Still, he's done the best thing he could to allay my fears: spend a ton of money to put a smart basketball guy with lots of leverage in charge for a long, long time.  He ain't buying that out that contract any time soon.   There's a mountain to climb, but I'm convinced we'll make steps in the right direction.  There may be some regression (early) next season, if players resist the mandate to play D and to take smarter shots.  That will itself be part of the progress though, figuring out who deserves which minutes and which players just can't be part of the long term plan.

Sparma, this is a very good post!!!
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FORUM - Page 7 Empty Random Thoughts...

Post  Go Stones! Fri May 23, 2014 6:47 am

*If the Kings are looking at trading their 1st round pick at #9, I wonder what it would take to get it. I wonder if they would be interested in Jennings. Do we need another young buck that may or may not assist us? I know the cheapness of a rookie, but at what expense of dealing with their growing pains?

*I believe Jennings, despite being a cancer on the team, if he is on the team next year should be the new Stuckey player who comes off the bench. (Similar salaries, right?). We would have to get a great PG to take the lead (Monroe and others for Rondo in a sign and trade?) He should not be used in 4th quarter. However, SVG may be able to guide him...if he will take an old white man's advice.

*If Monroe is on the team next year, he should be the first big man off the bench and used to support PF/C when injury or foul trouble occur. This would mean a Love (Smith at SF) or Deng (Smith at PF) situation would be ideal.

*I believe Gores is "all in" with this SVG situation. I think he will allow SVG to shape the franchise with max money. He should know by now that it takes money to convince players to play in Detroit and also win a 'ship.

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FORUM - Page 7 Empty Will one of the "big time spenders" please explain to me...

Post  deusXango Thu May 22, 2014 11:49 pm

...why would Tom Gores spend $39 million (in his first year of ownership) to save face for Joe Dumars, by amnestying Ben Gordon? Was Joe's first order of business to go into Gores office and tell him that Gordon had to go at all costs...a player he had signed two years earlier? Gores said okay, but don't amnesty him?

...how does paying $39 million for a #9 pick make sense?

...when you are willing to throw that type of money around, why are you reluctant to pay Monroe a max contract?

...why do you look a Smith's contract as an albatross around the franchises neck, but Jennings ain't that bad? Do you believe Jennings is a better deal?

...were you really okay with equating Knight and Middleton to Jennings, for that wonderful sign and trade?

I know BK7 had a turnover problem handling the ball, but isn't an ill-advised, 3 pointer, that the defense starts their fast break with, equal to a turnover? If Josh Smith didn't shoot a single 3 pointer last year what would be wrong with his game to deserve all the hatred he receives? I don't think that Don is the only fan who knows our PG play is the most pressing problem, he just have the courage to constantly speak on it, while some ignore it. Wise and Don have been campaigning for a sounder defensive effort and to that end realize that Smith is better than Monroe, and age has nothing to do with Monroe magically developing into a defensive wiz, anymore than it means he will develop a deadly mid-range shot...Smith is a defender and can be outstanding for another 5-6 years, and he's capable of a proficient mid-range shot. Oh sh!t, Don hates Josh, and Wise can't stand Monroe!!
The reality is, SVG hasn't been on the job for a week yet, let's give him time to prove he's a worthy roll of the dice, over Joe, and much better at coaching than Loyer, Cheeks, Lil' Larry, Kuester, and Banjo.
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FORUM - Page 7 Empty Good will

Post  Sparma Thu May 22, 2014 11:04 pm

I thought Goodwill had some good stuff in his column including the following nicely put assessment: "The Pistons wanted a quick turnaround via cap flexibility, which begat bringing in Josh Smith and Brandon Jennings. Now one wonders if the cycle of one Band-Aid after another will end with Van Gundy in free agency or on the trade market, or if it’ll continue."

Beat writers need to balance maintaining their sources within the organization, selling newspapers, and telling the truth.  Tough gig.

As I see it, Dumars, with his back up against the wall (due to his own decisions as well as to the impatience and tightness of Gores) made three massive, high risk, gambles: the Gordon trade, signing Smith, and the Jennings trade.  I still have some hope for the latter two, but each of those three gambles has turned out very badly.  I see the band aids more as the signing of Gigi and an aging Chauncey, in search of the spacing that would clearly be necessary.  Didn't work.  Gores' playoff mandate made Joe reluctant to put control of the ball in the hands of a rookie, as he should have.

Gores' poor assessment of the state of the team, his impatience, his cheapness made for a disastrously nice fit with Dumars' poor decisions, with the draft night fiasco capping off the ugly mixture painfully but poetically.

Now it's time to move on though, without forgetting.   My suspicions of Gores will likely linger for years.  Still, he's done the best thing he could to allay my fears: spend a ton of money to put a smart basketball guy with lots of leverage in charge for a long, long time.  He ain't buying that out that contract any time soon.   There's a mountain to climb, but I'm convinced we'll make steps in the right direction.  There may be some regression (early) next season, if players resist the mandate to play D and to take smarter shots.  That will itself be part of the progress though, figuring out who deserves which minutes and which players just can't be part of the long term plan.
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Post  cool breeze Thu May 22, 2014 8:06 pm

lemonpen wrote:
Oracle wrote:It's not the end of the world, but mentally, it was a direct asteroid the size of the moon hit in the gut!
Yeah, but a long period on the throne helped get over it.

Like Wise said, it hurts even more since Joe decided to pass on not one, but two sure fire star players in Burke & MCW in the last draft! I'm not saying that KCP is trash, but we needed a world class PG a lot more!

But on we go!

DX is right, no Stuckey, no way! A change in culture demands that we rid ourselves of Stuckey, and the good thing about Stuckey... we don't have to do a damn thing to peel that scab off, just let him walk!
Hell Yeah  !!!

Which means that we have a good chunk of change to go after FA's, and we've also got some decent trade bait!

Potential players on the block: Jennings, Josh, JJ, Bynum, and Monroe under the right circumstances!
Loosing WillieB in addition to Stuckey would leave Stan with no explosive (sic) scorer off the bench.  Don't be surprised if WB is safe.


Look, I could roll with either Josh or Monroe, but would prefer Monroe, but if it isn't in the cards and he want out, let's make it happen!
They're evenly ill equipped to lead the parade but only one of them possessess a game that is still growing.  

The bottom line is that we have assets and cash to do something special, and seriously, I do mean special! If SVG can get us 2-4 new players that fit, this is a real ECF contender after a season of hard work getting culture and defense together!

So while we lost the pick, we're not toast by any measure... time to get busy!!!
It sure would be nice to see one of last seasons kids take a mammoth step this summer.
But how does Van Gundy get a superstar. We have no stars let alone a superstar caliber player. You need to get really bad to get one. I would go that route admitting most of our players right now would be on the bench on any playoff team. 

The observation you made relating to Will Bynum is really troublesome for me. I hope this isn't true. I do know that nobody would want his contract. Note Nate Robinson only received a one year contract for less money than Bynum. And if you recall, Nate destroyed the Pistons two years ago when going up against Bynum, Stuckey or Knight. Bynum cannot defend anyone. He cannot even get an offense started properly. But he is explosive when he dominates the ball which makes all of the other players worse. He needs the ball in his hands to do his thing. When other teams are serious about playing the right way, they can stop the Pistons in their tracks with Bynum on the floor. It is just a fact that being that the schedule is crazy, players and coaches relax a bit when playing against Detroit and they allow Bynum to score at times. I hope the fans know the real truth and will expect more from management this year. They need to buy out Bynum's contract or trade him and agree to play two thirds of his salary. Bynum is a disruption for the team. He is a circus act. That is why Mo Cheeks placed him on the bench. A team can never get better with players like W. Bynum. And I like the guy a lot. He is a good man. Good for him for getting that nice contract. But still I am a loyal Piston fan and know his time should be up as a Piston.

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Post  cool breeze Thu May 22, 2014 7:55 pm

deusXango wrote:SVG waiting with baited breath for the ECF's to be over, so he can start pursuing Lance Stevenson...giving Lance the "keys to the car," by taking them from Jennings, is like taking them from a baby and giving them to a man.

I see Lemon's prediction being doubled or tripled; Datome, KCP, and Singler will be far more productive than they were last year...Siva, Mitchell, and Harrellson will surprise many under the new coaching regime.

Monroe insists on signing a contract for what Josh signed for, signaling the teams best interest comes first. Behind the signing, Drummond agrees to come off the bench for SVG.

Fans are so excited that Sacramento agrees to trade their #8 pick for Jennings and cash considerations, they welcome SVG using it for Nik Stauskas. The teams weak link quickly becomes the cornerstone of our rebuild...Stevenson, KCP, Stauskas, and Siva/Dinwiddie (depending on a Bynum buyout).

The most formidable bench in the east: Drummond, Harrellson/Mitchell, Singler, Stauskas, and Dinwiddie/Siva; they "cut up" on both sides of the ball.

SVG coach of the year and executive of the year...who'd a thunk it?
dX I liked what you said with the exception of Mitchell. He sucked when he received playing time in the last two weeks of the season. I have heard reports that he didn't have a good work ethic this past season like Siva had. He was not in really good shape when I saw him play. This was his prior history as a college player. He screwed off in college and never took the game seriously. He will soon be on the outside looking in all because of his faulty brain.

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FORUM - Page 7 Empty Vincent Goodwill is at it again planting a positive spin for the owners instead of doing his job as an objective reporter

Post  cool breeze Thu May 22, 2014 7:47 pm

Does that get a reporter another fee dinner to write that nonsense. This was the best draft in many years and here we fans are on the outside looking in at the other fans with smiles on their faces. And in future seasons when Cleveland blows Detroit out for 8 years in a row what will Vincent write then? Will he remember how stupid that Ben Gordon trade was or will it be business as usual for him. Write the stories that have a positive message to disrupt fans who are tired of stupidity by Piston management. Michael Jordan got the best of the Pistons. Cleveland got the best of the Pistons. We are screwed and will be a medium level team someday isn't that exciting? And Vincent made no mention that Detroit most of all needs a competent point guard. He mentions shooting guards as our weakness. No we have the two worst point guards in the NBA right now with Brandon Jennings and Will Bynum. Will does a lot of good work for the community so he should be the number two point guard. And Brandon Jennings is so young and will develop into a better player. No that isn't true and never will be true. You could say that about Brandon Knight. He has potential to be a good player. Jennings will never become an adequate defender and will have to be on the bench in crunch time or he will be exploited. He has a big contract that nobody wants. But it seems that Vincent Goodwill believes we will be OK as long as we get that 2nd round pick. Maybe if Detroit drafts a point guard in the 2nd round and Siva gets a lot better we have a slight chance of success. There is no way I would draft any player with that pick who cannot play the point. 

Is the real plan by management to fool the fans again? Are the owners trying to sell the fans on the belief that they have now hired a genius who is a master at making crappy players into playoff players who have a chance to win. Is the real plan to sign a shooting guard who can hit some outside shots and keep the remaining roster and with better coaching finally make the playoffs. That is a stupid plan of course and we all know it. If we become good enough to make the playoffs then we don't get a superstar in the draft. We need at least one superstar playing for the Pistons. That is why I support losing big this season because next year's draft is also going to be really special. By the way who gives a damn about the summer league? We will have only one new rookie this year. Thanks again Mr. Gores for being a greedy man who wouldn't throw a bone to us fans starving for better basketball players. I think that Mr. Gores believes that this year Will Bynum and Brandon Jennings will make the All Star team.

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FORUM - Page 7 Empty Gazing deep into my crystal ball, I see...

Post  deusXango Thu May 22, 2014 3:49 pm

SVG waiting with baited breath for the ECF's to be over, so he can start pursuing Lance Stevenson...giving Lance the "keys to the car," by taking them from Jennings, is like taking them from a baby and giving them to a man.

I see Lemon's prediction being doubled or tripled; Datome, KCP, and Singler will be far more productive than they were last year...Siva, Mitchell, and Harrellson will surprise many under the new coaching regime.

Monroe insists on signing a contract for what Josh signed for, signaling the teams best interest comes first. Behind the signing, Drummond agrees to come off the bench for SVG.

Fans are so excited that Sacramento agrees to trade their #8 pick for Jennings and cash considerations, they welcome SVG using it for Nik Stauskas. The teams weak link quickly becomes the cornerstone of our rebuild...Stevenson, KCP, Stauskas, and Siva/Dinwiddie (depending on a Bynum buyout).

The most formidable bench in the east: Drummond, Harrellson/Mitchell, Singler, Stauskas, and Dinwiddie/Siva; they "cut up" on both sides of the ball.

SVG coach of the year and executive of the year...who'd a thunk it?
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