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More Dumars

Post  Sparma on Mon May 26, 2014 12:51 am

A simpler batting average analogy to the question of successful achievements would be: how many batters (in recent times) have won a batting title, finished second another season, and finished either 3rd or 4th three other times. (I suppose that comparison would be unfair to Joe's advantage in that the batting champ has far more competitors than does a champion GM/ Pres.)

A more direct comparison would be with Dave Dombrowski who's just been named (by Sporting News?) the third best GM in MLB. With Detroit since 2002, he's got 2 WS losses and another two playoff appearance, which wouldn't equal Joe's accomplishments with the Pistons. Add in a Marlin's WS title and probably he inches ahead of Joe. For career accomplishment, I'd put Dombrowski well ahead of Dumars; years of regression does mar the record!
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Dumars

Post  Sparma on Mon May 26, 2014 12:05 am

Are we in agreement then that there are three (contemporary) executives with better achievements than Dumars, with one (Ainge) tied?  That's pretty select company, just as Oracle's been saying.

Merc, I think Oracle's original question about record does equate to a question of career batting average.  My tweaked question about accomplishments, successful achievements, would not.  It could map on to batting averages as follows: how many have batted over .360 for one season, over .340 for two more seasons (a total of 3), and over .320 an additional 3 seasons for a total of six seasons.  In the contemporary era that would be some small number (I'm guessing).  In any case, you could anchor the comparison in achievements of analogous difficulty.  I'm not sure what Dumars' record would equate to in career batting average.  Maybe .290 or something pretty good but not great.  That total would not be entirely objective -- you'd need to take circumstances (positive and negative) into account to get the best approximation.  Maybe those could be like park effects that you take into account so as not to equate batting .300 in Dodger Stadium and in Fenway.

In the case of Dumars, you could also apply a distinction developed by Bill James in the first edition of his Historical Baseball Abstract between peak performance (best performance sustained over at least a few years) and career performance.  For instance (as I remember), at that time James put Denny McLain #7 all-time among right hand starters in peak performance, but of course Denny ended up being just pretty good in career performance.  I think that Dumars' peak performance would be among the best ever, Hall of Fame level; his career performance would be far more ordinary, given the many missteps that Wise and Don (and really anyone this side of Keith Langlois who's followed the team closely) have chronicled.   Credit to Wise and Don for being quicker than some others to recognize those missteps.  The peak - career distinction wouldn't work yield notably different results for some executives, but it makes a huge difference in Joe's case.  

WISEFAN wrote:
Oracle wrote:Facts are recorded, they're in the record book!

What you "Feel" about Joe or his tenure is just that, your feelings!

What he accomplished is FACT!

While I respect your feelings, you've got to separate them when discussing facts!

Okay here is a list of GM's that were either better than Joe or on par with his 1 NBA Title, 2 Conference Titles, 6 Division Titles.  Well my feelings does play it's part it's also how one would perceive what is factual.  The telling story on Joe's failure is reflected in the fact that he only manage 2 conference titles the last in 2005 and what happened in the 9 years following while he sat on his ass.  


                                       League Conf Div
1. Mitch Kupchak                     4 NBA Titles       6 Conferens Titles     7 Division Titles
2. RC Buford                           3 NBA Titles       4 Conference   8 Division Titles
3. Pat Riley                             2 NBA Titles       3  Conference Titles   4 Division Titles
4. Danny Ainge                       1  NBA Title        2 Conference Titles    6 Division Titles
5. Donnie Nelson                     1 NBA Title        2  Conference Title   2 Division Titles
6. Sam Presti                          0  NBA Titles       1 Conference Title    3 Division Titles

- See more at: http://hoopshype.com/general_manager.htm#sthash.tC6s5qFo.dpuf
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Oracle Here Your Answer

Post  WTF on Sun May 25, 2014 10:15 pm

Oracle wrote:Facts are recorded, they're in the record book!

What you "Feel" about Joe or his tenure is just that, your feelings!

What he accomplished is FACT!

While I respect your feelings, you've got to separate them when discussing facts!

Okay here is a list of GM's that were either better than Joe or on par with his 1 NBA Title, 2 Conference Titles, 6 Division Titles. Well my feelings does play it's part it's also how one would perceive what is factual. The telling story on Joe's failure is reflected in the fact that he only manage 2 conference titles the last in 2005 and what happened in the 9 years following while he sat on his ass.


                                       League Conf Div
1. Mitch Kupchak                     4 NBA Titles       6 Conferens Titles     7 Division Titles
2. RC Buford                           3 NBA Titles      4 Conference   8 Division Titles
3. Pat Riley                             2 NBA Titles       3 Conference Titles   4 Division Titles
4. Danny Ainge                       1  NBA Title        2 Conference Titles    6 Division Titles
5. Donnie Nelson                     1 NBA Title        2  Conference Title   2 Division Titles
6. Sam Presti                          0  NBA Titles       1 Conference Title    3 Division Titles

- See more at: http://hoopshype.com/general_manager.htm#sthash.tC6s5qFo.dpuf
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Re: FORUM

Post  merc on Sun May 25, 2014 10:01 pm

It's the age old argument... Everyone understands the deals that Joe messed up... and equal screw ups can be attributed to most GMs... that's what Oracle is trying to get people to answer is... name all the GMs with a better track record... being a GM is like a hitter's batting average... in the end the best bat .300.
I don't seeing anyone talking about how great Hammond has been.
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Joe Dumars biggest fault was that he became lazy regarding his role as a GM

Post  cool breeze on Sun May 25, 2014 7:18 pm

I respect everything all of you posters have taken the time to write. It is good that some of you are looking at the positive that Dumars was in charge when Detroit won that Championship with Billups as the team leader. That team of over achievers won it all. Joe Dumars was the head executive at the time. He gets credit for that. It is great for you fans who can move off the pain of losing this first round pick and come away thinking highly of Joe Dumars. However, I am with Wisefan on this topic. Why should we forgive Joe for being a lazy ass? Somehow Dumars slept for 9 years while other GMs were out figuring out how to build a real NBA team while doing the hard work it takes to determine which college players will become good two way players. Joe was unable to judge the talent he already had on his team. While the Pistons biggest rival was the Spurs before they became a horrible team, the Spurs management team kept working hard both on developing the players they had but also spent many long hours figuring out how they could stay at the elite level. And I believe that almost any GM would have done the right thing after winning it and somehow signed Mike James to keep the chemistry that worked so well. Dumars didn't do the right thing. He was caught up in himself. He wanted to win it all again and have everyone notice Joe Dumars as being the guy who could keep on winning without paying the big bucks. Please don't tell me Bill Davidson was against signing James. It was Joe Dumars because he wanted his old teammate, Hunter to get a crack at winning it all. This decision was STUPID and selfish for the team. 

If I had been the owner I would have sent Dumars a warning slip after he drafted Rodney White over Joe Johnson because MJ told him that was the smart move. Right then the owner should have known that Dumars couldn't think for himself. Then even though Dumars had a really good team, he should have received the second warning slip when he drafted Darko. He repeated the same mistake and any owner should have noticed he was not a competent GM. DId MJ whisper in his ear again on that dumb decision? Who knows but for sure Joe believes that Michael Jordan is is best friend. Firing Flip Saunders and trading Billups should have been the end of Joe. But the owner was senile at the time. So Joe compounded this blunder by giving away Affalo. Then he was allowed to sign Charlie V and Ben Gordon. Arn't some of you a little pissed off about that? If not then try Brandon Knight and C. Middleton being traded For Brandon Jennings who Detroit could have signed without making that trade. But why would they want Brandon Jennings who is another guard that cannot defend. Or how about the fact that Joe Dumars kept Jason Maxiell for so many seasons after it was clear he could never compete well in a playoff situation? 

The only way one can look on the bright side relating to Joe Dumars is to forget his body of work. He never stood for anything. He never backed on of his coaches who challenged the inept players Joe signed. He has never admitted he has learned something from making the mistakes that have resulted in the people of Michigan having no interest in the Detroit Pistons. I say that Joe Dumars is directly responsible for those empty seats. So what free agent with the exception of guys like Josh Smith and Brandon Jennings would want to sign as free agents and play in front of empty seats? All the vets are turned off and hate even coming into the Palace twice a year. That is why I believe that Stan Van Gundy needs to lose big this season and then start building a team that has a chance to become winners. I guarantee this group of players have no chance in hell of succeeding regardless of who the coach might be. If he doesn't do that Detroit will be a middle of the pack team for the next 10 years.

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Oracle

Post  Sparma on Sun May 25, 2014 7:16 pm

Thanks. You and I seem to have real similar views of Dumars.
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Not an answer, just feelinngs...

Post  Oracle on Sun May 25, 2014 5:46 pm

Facts are recorded, they're in the record book!

What you "Feel" about Joe or his tenure is just that, your feelings!

What he accomplished is FACT!

While I respect your feelings, you've got to separate them when discussing facts!
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Oracle and Sparma

Post  WTF on Sun May 25, 2014 5:28 pm

Oracle wrote:Very good points!

I think Don & Wise see what I say as some kind of defense of Joe, or a reason he should have not been fired!

It's not, Joe's time was up, it was time for him & the organization to move on... maybe past time!

However, to ignore the facts of Joe's success requires mental gymnastics that I'm not quite prepared to navigate, especially because they are outstanding accomplishments!

It doesn't bother me in the least to give Joe his proper respect and then recognize that he needed to go... it happens at some point to everyone!

No I just got a bad itch when I seen that Joe was a topic still  tb

Now if I was to answer that question that question I could present a answer in 2 ways. First by saying every GM who team has won a championship since 2004 have been better than Joe because at the end of the day isn't it the Championship that counts. The second way is by saying every GM with a team that participated in a NBA since 2005.

I was not new to the idea of firing Joe when things got bad with the team, I was screaming to fire Joe as early as 2006 during a period the team was still competing. I do believe this that whatever success the team had after 2004 was accomplished on the backs of the players and coaching staff because Joe did nothing to improve on the 2004 success. So there's my answer  lol  No way do I attached 2006, 2007, 2008 seasons to Joe legacy in a positive no way consider I felt he should have been fired in 2006.
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Sparma

Post  Oracle on Sun May 25, 2014 4:58 pm

Very good points!

I think Don & Wise see what I say as some kind of defense of Joe, or a reason he should have not been fired!

It's not, Joe's time was up, it was time for him & the organization to move on... maybe past time!

However, to ignore the facts of Joe's success requires mental gymnastics that I'm not quite prepared to navigate, especially because they are outstanding accomplishments!

It doesn't bother me in the least to give Joe his proper respect and then recognize that he needed to go... it happens at some point to everyone!
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Dumars

Post  Sparma on Sun May 25, 2014 4:34 pm

Piggybacking on Oracle's question, I'd ask how many GMs/ Presidents equal the accomplishments (successful achievements) of Dumars? That's a tweak on asking about his record, which is mixed, as we all know.

By analogy, Connie Mack won nearly 1000 games more than the next manager, won 9 AL pennants, and 5 World Series championships. He's enshrined in the Hall of Fame and is rightfully seen as one of the greatest managers ever.

He also had a career losing record and presided over many years of dismal A's teams after winning his last W.S. title.

The Cooperstown folk didn't forget the bad part of record, but focused on his record of successes being unmatched (wins) or nearly so (titles) in enshrining him.

Joe deserves plenty of blame for what happened in the second half of his tenure running the Pistons. At the same time, it's very true, simply a fact as Oracle says, that few executives have equaled his successful achievements.

Once that fact is established, attempts to debunk can begin (eg Don: Hammond was the real mastermind). But in fairness, the same kind of approach should be taken to his successes and failures. For me, that means that in the early years, it was a combination of skill and luck and in the later years a combination of bad decisions and circumstances. But is it ever all skill? Two of the best ever, Phil Jackson and Greg Popovich, show that circumstances and luck play a big role.
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More Stuff...

Post  Oracle on Sun May 25, 2014 4:31 pm

Murph is right, DWill is 3 times the guard that Jennings is, and if we could get him without including Josh, it would be a decent deal, but I wouldn't classify it as a good deal!

Josh is indeed a better PF than Monroe! But that isn't the question! The question is if josh is the best PF for us(the team), and the answer to that isn't as clear! If we're to be honest with ourselves, we don't know, and any analysis of the situation is murky!

IMO, the safer move would be to trade him if possible, but like Jennings, the suitors are few, and the Josh supporters need to recognize that it's that way for a reason.

While I think we can make him work here, it's certainly not because I want to try, I wish we could do better!

That doesn't mean that I'm delusional about Moose! Moose gets a mini pass simply because his expiration date is further into the future!

@Seb - Dream on Bro! We don't have a need for Stuckey, he's a reverse rabbit's foot, we need him gone to move forward! And Bledsoe will be back with the Suns, making a run at him is a waste of time and brain cells! BTW, nobody wants Jennings, he'll have to be a throw in on some deal that's bigger! Only Joe would make that turd the centerpiece of a trade!
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Oh Un-Wise One...

Post  Oracle on Sun May 25, 2014 4:13 pm

WISEFAN wrote:
Oracle wrote:Don, there's nothing for you to buy... FACTS are facts!

Give me a list of GM's with a better record, and then you've got something to talk about.

Then why was his ass fired?  Okay Joe had some success but he double downed if not triple down on dumb **** since inadvertently walking into a title in 2004.  There are indeed facts but many of them get dismissed or ignored because it resulted in a title.  

Fact: He Darko oppose to Bosh, Melo and Wade which impacted success beyond 2004.  
Fact: His last 4 coaching hires
Fact: Passing on MCW and Burke
Fact: Trading away this year draft pick
Fact: Draft Knight oppose to Kemba only to trade Knight for Jennings
Fact: Sat on his Fat Ass and done nothing since 2004

If fans were buying into facts Joe Fat Ass should have been fired in 2006.

If facts are facts, then why are you avoiding them... answer the freaking question before you cite incidents, not the FACTS of a career!

The question was brain dead simple, but you avoided it like the plague!

Care to address the facts of a persons tenure at a position, or should we define MJ, Bird, Zeke, etc., by their losses?
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D. Will?

Post  Sebastian on Sun May 25, 2014 9:29 am

No way Murph. D-Will has proven that he can play a respectable number of minutes per game with the ball in his hands most of that time and do absolutely nothing. And, his salary is way, too large.

But, your larger point of finding a point guard that is better than Jennings is a real challenge for SVG. The lost of this year's Lottery Pick is going to cause SVG to really have to be more imaginative than he otherwise would have to be.

Maybe, the Kings would be interested in Jennings, if they don't resign Isiah Thmas and don't draft a projected starting PG in the draft. Or, the Lakers may be desperate enough to add him to their roster. The would had been a perfect team to pawn Jennings off to, but when Phil join the Knicks administration that possibility ended there. Ain't no way in hell will Phil have Jennings anywhere near his roster.

Yes, SVG is in a tough spot, but he still has some cards to play:

1- SVG has to identify the top three teams where Moose can do a sign-and-trade and determine which players and/or assets he is willing to take in return. Their are teams that are salivating at the chance to have Moose on their team. Squads like the Pelicans, Bucks, Celtics and the Suns want him badly, all of which have 2014 First Round draft picks and the Suns have three first round picks. The Moose transaction has to be done smartly, but quickly during the first week of free agency.  

2- Throw every penny of Stuckey's ($8.5) and Charlie V.'s ($8.5) at Eric Bledsoe. Force the Suns to pay Bledsoe the max, which I doubt they would match, if the Suns don't then Bledsoe is OURS.

3- Resign Stuckey with the mid-level exception ($5.5 for 4 years). Stuckey remains a weapon, when implored properly.

SVG is going to have to wheel and deal. Will see which hand he plays.




WISEFAN wrote:Murph, that wasn't directed at you concerning Josh being traded you are one of the handful that would like to keep Josh here.

Williams oppose to Jennings I'm just not that sold injuries aside Deron issue far beyond them. I'm not sure if SVG would have anymore success with Deron diva attitude than Sloan or J Kidd did and that diva mentality of his is far worse than Jennings frequent Brain Farts and SVG would have better  chance at correcting Jennings mental malfunction than he would with Deron's IMO.  Mind you at half the cost which is why I wouldn't give up Josh in a trade for him.  

I could see if we were talking about CP3 who I'm not crazy about, or a proven but injured Rondo, or a Westbrook but damn sure not for the likes of Deron who has underachieved and caused disharmony in both Utah and Brooklyn.  

Yeah Deron is probably 4 times better than Jennings but likely more screwed up in the head which almost makes them a wash in terms of impact so we might as well keep Jennings IMO.
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@Murph

Post  WTF on Sun May 25, 2014 7:54 am

Murph, that wasn't directed at you concerning Josh being traded you are one of the handful that would like to keep Josh here.

Williams oppose to Jennings I'm just not that sold injuries aside Deron issue far beyond them. I'm not sure if SVG would have anymore success with Deron diva attitude than Sloan or J Kidd did and that diva mentality of his is far worse than Jennings frequent Brain Farts and SVG would have better chance at correcting Jennings mental malfunction than he would with Deron's IMO. Mind you at half the cost which is why I wouldn't give up Josh in a trade for him.

I could see if we were talking about CP3 who I'm not crazy about, or a proven but injured Rondo, or a Westbrook but damn sure not for the likes of Deron who has underachieved and caused disharmony in both Utah and Brooklyn.

Yeah Deron is probably 4 times better than Jennings but likely more screwed up in the head which almost makes them a wash in terms of impact so we might as well keep Jennings IMO.
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Re: FORUM

Post  Murph on Sun May 25, 2014 7:42 am

WISEFAN wrote:People I would not give up Josh for D-Will under no circumstances and the team would be a fool to consider such a trade.  Sadly but very true Jennings would have been more effective for Brooklyn in the playoffs than Deron Williams was for them. Besides Deron injuries he's been one of the biggest Divas in the league and you can't dismiss what happened in Utah.  For real people this is the player that butted heads with Sloan just enough to get Sloan to quit and then he turns around and leave Utah thinking he find success in Brooklyn and began bumping heads with J Kidd.  

Deron has all the tools and talents to be in the mold of Chauncey and Miller in very good floor leaders throughout there careers. Deron should be having similar success as this two but he's too much of a freaking diva and not as smart as Chauncey or Miller.  IMO both Deron Williams and Chris Paul are 2 of the most overrated players in the league and the biggest under-rated choke artist when its time to deliver on the big stage.  Zeke said it best on First Take a week ago "Superstars Win!"  and then CP3 goes out and lose.  Deron and Chris has the talent but no heart or not enough heart to lead a team and we would be just as frustrated with an underachieving Deron as we are with an incapable Jennings at our PG.  Truth be told I would rather not have either of these PG and watch them underachieve, Jennings is a dumb ass no doubt but he has more heart and moxie than those two.  

Really don't understand why many are insistent on trading away the best PF on the team right now.  Josh is the best PF on the overall and he defends and plays the position far better than anyone else on the team.  You all must really stop looking at Josh as a SF and determining he needs to be traded on that basis only.  I know it's hard to believe for many of you but Moose will never be a better PF than Josh not now not later. These false assassination attempts on Josh really needs to stop because you all favor an underachieving Moose over him.  That's fine but at least be honest and truthful about why you want him traded.  Yeah you can say trade him because he's not the idea SF but you also can say keep him because he's a better PF just stop making up all the dumb sh!t about why he needs to be traded.  


I never said Smith needs to be traded.  I said D-Will, such as he is, is still about three times better than Jennings.  

Unfortunately Smith would have to be included to complete the trade.

And as far as Williams' injuries are concerned, he's getting bone spurs removed....not exactly career threatening.
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Facts Are Indeed Facts

Post  WTF on Sun May 25, 2014 7:34 am

Oracle wrote:Don, there's nothing for you to buy... FACTS are facts!

Give me a list of GM's with a better record, and then you've got something to talk about.

Then why was his ass fired? Okay Joe had some success but he double downed if not triple down on dumb **** since inadvertently walking into a title in 2004. There are indeed facts but many of them get dismissed or ignored because it resulted in a title.

Fact: He Darko oppose to Bosh, Melo and Wade which impacted success beyond 2004.
Fact: His last 4 coaching hires
Fact: Passing on MCW and Burke
Fact: Trading away this year draft pick
Fact: Draft Knight oppose to Kemba only to trade Knight for Jennings
Fact: Sat on his Fat Ass and done nothing since 2004

If fans were buying into facts Joe Fat Ass should have been fired in 2006.
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Swapping Lies and Assorted Turds There's A Reason Why Brooklyn Would Trade Deron

Post  WTF on Sun May 25, 2014 7:17 am

People I would not give up Josh for D-Will under no circumstances and the team would be a fool to consider such a trade. Sadly but very true Jennings would have been more effective for Brooklyn in the playoffs than Deron Williams was for them. Besides Deron injuries he's been one of the biggest Divas in the league and you can't dismiss what happened in Utah. For real people this is the player that butted heads with Sloan just enough to get Sloan to quit and then he turns around and leave Utah thinking he find success in Brooklyn and began bumping heads with J Kidd.

Deron has all the tools and talents to be in the mold of Chauncey and Miller in very good floor leaders throughout there careers. Deron should be having similar success as this two but he's too much of a freaking diva and not as smart as Chauncey or Miller. IMO both Deron Williams and Chris Paul are 2 of the most overrated players in the league and the biggest under-rated choke artist when its time to deliver on the big stage. Zeke said it best on First Take a week ago "Superstars Win!" and then CP3 goes out and lose. Deron and Chris has the talent but no heart or not enough heart to lead a team and we would be just as frustrated with an underachieving Deron as we are with an incapable Jennings at our PG. Truth be told I would rather not have either of these PG and watch them underachieve, Jennings is a dumb ass no doubt but he has more heart and moxie than those two.

Really don't understand why many are insistent on trading away the best PF on the team right now. Josh is the best PF on the overall and he defends and plays the position far better than anyone else on the team. You all must really stop looking at Josh as a SF and determining he needs to be traded on that basis only. I know it's hard to believe for many of you but Moose will never be a better PF than Josh not now not later. These false assassination attempts on Josh really needs to stop because you all favor an underachieving Moose over him. That's fine but at least be honest and truthful about why you want him traded. Yeah you can say trade him because he's not the idea SF but you also can say keep him because he's a better PF just stop making up all the dumb sh!t about why he needs to be traded.

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Trades?!

Post  deusXango on Sun May 25, 2014 5:55 am

The fabled brain trust in San Antonio can see value in a $13.5 million player like our Josh Smith, but we can't...makes sense to me. What do we get for Smith, another royal "Dumars f#cking?"

Jennings was just sitting around, being ignored by NBA teams, until Joe got hosed by giving up on BK7 and Middleton too soon for this clown; what has he really done to enhance his value to those same NBA GM's since he's been under contract? If Sacramento doesn't take him for their first round pick, there's no one else dumb enough to take him off our hands (they may not want him!).

We've got to stop treating Singler like he's untouchable and realize that he's got the most trade value for us (contract and experience), and build a package around him, i.e., Singler, J.J., and Jennings for a player and a couple second round picks. Just an example to meet our needs, mainly cleaning up our roster first!
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Trades?

Post  Phil1980boy on Sun May 25, 2014 4:25 am

[quote="Sparma"]I like that rumored trade, Philboy, even though I understand that Williams' isn't what he once was.

For Smith A trade to The Spurs would turn around his career and Image. Josh Smith would be choir boy #1 in San Antonio. And yes he would be coming off the bench and he would have A smile on his face when asked about it I GUARANTEE IT!!

B.Jennings perfect landing spot would be Miami. Lebron and D.Wade would kick Jennings A.Z.Z after he takes one of his AAU, walk-up 3's. And then gets beat back on defense for A layup. Lebron would eat him alive if D.Wade don't get to him first. That's what Jennings needs.

Call them. See what they want to give up to get these two. Don't be shocked if Josh Playing for the Spurs next season. The Spurs don't have much to offer but first round picks. I would take that along with A 3rd team tossing in something.

Jennings. I don't see any team really needing his services. But somebody will get injured and need A PG and Jennings will be on the block all season long.
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Josh vs Jennings & DWill

Post  deusXango on Sat May 24, 2014 9:16 pm

"Jennings is for sure a head case with physical problems that I don't think can be fixed..."-Oracle
Oracle, this is an obvious and overlooked problem that'll hold the teams progress back, if time is invested/wasted? in trying to change the spots on this guy. The sooner he's replaced in the starting lineup, the sooner we'll start showing what type of overall talent we have. Great observation.

"Josh could be VERY productive if managed correctly! He's inherently team oriented, and wants to do the right thing, if only he had the support system around him to make it happen!"-Oracle
I think Josh Smith should be SVG's main reclamation project for a number of reasons; 1.) it would demonstrate the SVG Smith is far better than the Mo Cheeks Smith. 2.) the money invested in this guy is really a bargain for us (and not one for someone else!) 3.) Josh's leadership abilities have been hidden under a rock...he'll be Stan's voice in the locker room and example on the floor. 4.) and being paired with Drummond in the paint could be the best thing to happen for Andre...D Howard never played with a defensive presence during his developmental years under SVG, but Josh & 'Dre can be special.

If Monroe doesn't want to play for Detroit, at a reasonable price, make the most of that parting of ways; he and Jennings may get us either that needed, healthy PG or first round pick(s). DWill is set to go under the knife again, and his conditioning sucks...he's clearly on the decline, but his contract is becoming more expensive; I'd pass on this guy, even if it means keeping Jennings! We parted with Ben Wallace over a max contract and he was a champion, but Monroe is nowhere near accomplishing any of the things Ben did; to that end, I'm willing to deal Monroe, if it comes to that.
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deusXango

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Josh vs Jennings & DWill

Post  Oracle on Sat May 24, 2014 6:55 pm

I'll take DWill over Jennings any day of the and twice on Sunday!

Having said that, my only problem with the rumored trade is that while it looks like we're trading two head cases for only one, it's not that black & white!

Jennings is for sure a head case with physical problems that I don't think can be fixed, Josh is not really in that category!

Josh could be VERY productive if managed correctly! He's inherently team oriented, and wants to do the right thing, if only he had the support system around him to make it happen!

So I'm not inclined to dump Josh at any cost now that SVG is here, a coach that will command Josh's respect! IMO, if we move Josh, we should be sure to get some value, maybe not full value, but good value!

Getting a pick in the first round would qualify IMO!
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Deus

Post  Sparma on Sat May 24, 2014 4:01 pm

I appreciate your thoughtfulness on the matter. I guess the Friday night got the better of me and I started writing down everything that came to mind. No need to respond further, unless something there's something you'd still like to say about it. I saw you posted something similar at PP, so thought I'd respond.
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Deus asks "...how does paying $39 million for a #9 pick make sense?"

Post  deusXango on Sat May 24, 2014 2:38 pm

Sparma, to be honest, I've got to digest and think carefully through your post; it's highly intellectual with a lot of good points, that frankly, challenges my thought processes. I can't take them lightly because that'd be the quickest route to getting me a new one torn...I'll holla at you later on the matter.
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Trade?!

Post  deusXango on Sat May 24, 2014 11:12 am

A few years ago, before I knew better, I'd have been all for Deron Williams, but in the last few years, he's shown to be too much of a risk, especially for a team that's rebuilding. He's an impatient, coach killing, team destroyer and paid waaaay too much money...he seems like the type move Joe Dumars would make. His physical conditioning suggests he's not what SVG is looking for, and we're long past the point where we cater to any of our players.
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Trade

Post  Murph on Sat May 24, 2014 9:13 am

Hmmmm...I'm not crazy about Deron Williams, and I like Josh Smith (just not as a SF).

But, I have to say that this trade represents one of the only ways out of our PG dilemma.  No one is going to take on Jennings' contract, unless they're unloading an even worse contract.   And say what you want about Williams, he's still a huge upgrade from Jennings. And if Williams lost 15 lbs and got quicker, he's play much better, IMO.

So all things considered, if I were SVG, I'd go for it.
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Re: FORUM

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