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Ouch Just Busted Another Blood Vessel Thought We Were Done

Post  WTF on Tue May 27, 2014 12:00 am

@merc wrote:Wise, that's a rational answer... if you'll just consider how ridiculously difficult to create a roster that has your team as the last standing.... exactly how many GM's have done this in the last 10 years?... Detroit doesn't have the golden goose market of a NY, Miami or LA... nothing but mad respect for the Spurs!

Enough with the disclaimers for failure. It doesn't matter what the surrounding circumstance were or how difficult the task may have been I'm sure his job description didn't read win only once or get close. After putting together the 2004 championship team Joe has done a piss poor job with managing the team up until he was mandated playoffs or bust by Gores last season.

If we are to draw a hard line on the record without questioning and injecting the luck theory then the same should apply when discussing the failures win the task was to win. We can't pick and choose when to draw that hard line failure is failure and winning is winning, the difficulty level shouldn't come into play. Try going in to work with an incomplete task and tell the boss you were close but no cigar.  facepalm 

You know I could probably accept Joe's failure if he actually put forth an honest effort and paid close detail and done all his homework but he didn't. So no more market, goblins, gremlins, Mr. D, Mrs. D if there was no Good Luck in success there certainly wasn't any bad luck in failure. Not that I have a problem with accepting the luck theory either way Good or Bad  tb 

There is no way on God's Green Earth after back to back Finals he couldn't end up with free agents to create a better bench and gave the core the help they needed. I players want to win and we presented that opportunity. So what really happened
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Last years team was brilliant, so what went wrong?

Post  Oracle on Mon May 26, 2014 10:56 pm

Singler said it best! "The big 3 works in practice all the time!"

Joe put together a very talented team, but two areas went horribly wrong, and one assumption, that spelled doom!

What went wrong?

1. Chauncey sold Joe a bill of goods and couldn't deliver, this is likely the biggest mistake! Why? Well, for several reasons. First, Chauncey was supposed to be a coach on the floor, but he was never on the floor so that didn't work! Second, he was supposed to provide supreme floor spacing with his great 3pt shooting... it never happened! Third, and this led to another big problem, he threatened Knight to the point that Knight & Joe couldn't resolve their issues! Joe said Knight wasn't a PG, and Knight said he was! It wasn't a question of who was right, it was handled very badly by a guy who always believes he's right and will club you in the head if you disagree... this led to the Knight trade!

2. The trade for Josh was brilliant, but it assumed one thing that killed us! It assumed, wrongly that Drummond was defensively sound! We knew Monroe was defensively challenged, but the prevailing thinking was that Drummond was sound! That led to having 3 bigs with the ONLY capable defender(Josh) 15-20 feet away from the basket... WTF??? So did Josh get a bad rap last season... YES! Did Josh help get that bad rap... Yup, but the real problem wasn't spacing, it was Drummond! My assumption was that if we couldn't score that we could at least stop the other team from scoring... I was horribly wrong!

3. Jennings was the last straw! Trading Knight and Middleton for Jennings was the straw that ultimately broke the back of the team! With no Chauncey, we were left with a guard that can't shoot, can't run a team, and can't break down defenses, and can't defend... i.e. USELESS and an offense killer! Oddly, we traded a guard that while although he was learning how to run a team, could shoot, could defend, and could break down defenses... sheesh!

There is more, but I see these things as the big ones!

So while I think Joe did great for the most part after years of effing up, this team was going to need 2 years of tweaking to get the balance right, Joe ran out of time!
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Wise, that's a rational answer

Post  Oracle on Mon May 26, 2014 10:38 pm

@merc wrote:Wise, that's a rational answer... if you'll just consider how ridiculously difficult to create a roster that has your team as the last standing.... exactly how many GM's have done this in the last 10 years?... Detroit doesn't have the golden goose market of a NY, Miami or LA... nothing but mad respect for the Spurs!

Wow, that was a rational answer, and Merc's reply is right on!

Ok, now that I know you're making real sense, it's clear that we're getting closer to agreement!

Hell, I think Joe went off the rails years ago, but since I knew he wasn't going anywhere, who was there to support other than Joe.. Ainge?

For me, the hiring of Curry, showed me that Joe didn't think his stuff stank, and was completely delusional!

Bad sh!t was going to happen once a GM enters that territory, and it did with Joe!

Mistake after mistake, and selling it to us like we just got off the boat... hell, we may have been born at night, but it wasn't last night!

But in my next post, I will defend the Joe of last year!
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Re: FORUM

Post  merc on Mon May 26, 2014 9:37 pm

Wise, that's a rational answer... if you'll just consider how ridiculously difficult to create a roster that has your team as the last standing.... exactly how many GM's have done this in the last 10 years?... Detroit doesn't have the golden goose market of a NY, Miami or LA... nothing but mad respect for the Spurs!
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Stop The Hating

Post  deusXango on Mon May 26, 2014 9:24 pm

WISEFAN wrote:Smith - 10% chance. Josh has never listened to one coach in his entire life so far. He might not have the ability to improve because he doesn't really care about improving. He has a fantastic contract and didn't look as if he liked playing basketball last season. He had a nasty look on his face most of the season. Smith is so impulsive that any coach will have nightmares trying to depend on him. He has never been a good 4th quarter player in his life. Josh has great potential but his athletic ability will be in the decline soon. - Don

He always got a nasty look on his face, and his father was in a hospital bed the entire season and plus he was ne a team with all those dumb players you just mentioned.  LOL!  lol  You're something else Don
Don. Coach. Listen for a minute; Josh Smith was the best all around player on our roster last year and it was a down year for him. Prior to last year his PER career average was 18.75 and that's nothing to sneeze at...just ask the analytic experts. He was played out of position and Mo Cheeks rode his ass for no legitimate reason at all; IMO Cheeks was a sneaky, detached, vindictive, little f#ck. Anyway, Josh (sorry, not Singler) was the best defender both athletically and knowing how to play defense, that we had. His experience and knowledge of the NBA exceeded all the players on the team, but Chauncey, who if memory serves me correctly, sided with Josh in his protestations against Cheeks. Speaking of Cheeks, have you noticed that J-Smoove has played for more coaches cut from the same cloth as Cheeks, than world class coaches? Let's give SVG a year with Josh, playing him at PF, where he should have been all along. I believe your mind is open enough to give that a chance, after all he's been invested in, and Monroe is dragging his feet about continuing to be a Piston.
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SVG First Mistake As New Coach and GM

Post  WTF on Mon May 26, 2014 7:15 pm

A few hours after Gilbert's radio appearance, Stan Van Gundy was Matt Dery's guest on Detroit Sports 105.1, and he was asked to address Gilbert's comments. "First of all, Tom Gores, our owner, his ownership team, they've been very involved in the city of Detroit, not just the surrounding area but the city of Detroit," Van Gundy said. "The Pistons organization tries to stay involved down there. - SVG

No comment should have been your only response those comments may come back to haunt you in dealing with the local media. They won't be very kind if you don't show success sooner rather than later. I'm hoping that this isn't an indication that you're incline to kiss Gores ass more oppose to turning this team around. They said you were smart and paid attention to detail and you obviously slipped on that question which was loaded to begin with. Pay attention Knucklehead they're already gearing up to question you on who you select in the 2nd round that Mofo better play 20 minutes a game or your ass will get cream.

As for Gilbert comments he's a 100% correct and those attendance numbers are bullsh!t because I've attended 5 home games and there was not more than 10 those tops each time in that arena. Until I see a building go up downtown with Gores name on it he's doing absolutely nothing for the city and that team should be downtown period.

Team should have went to Ilitch in the first damn place. Meantime SVG mind your comments
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Stop The Hating

Post  WTF on Mon May 26, 2014 6:44 pm

Smith - 10% chance. Josh has never listened to one coach in his entire life so far. He might not have the ability to improve because he doesn't really care about improving. He has a fantastic contract and didn't look as if he liked playing basketball last season. He had a nasty look on his face most of the season. Smith is so impulsive that any coach will have nightmares trying to depend on him. He has never been a good 4th quarter player in his life. Josh has great potential but his athletic ability will be in the decline soon. - Don

He always got a nasty look on his face, and his father was in a hospital bed the entire season and plus he was ne a team with all those dumb players you just mentioned. LOL!  lol  You're something else Don
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Oracle Why Are We Talking About Joe? I Give Up Too

Post  WTF on Mon May 26, 2014 6:37 pm

But I don't give a sh!t if he tripped over a banana peel and got to the finals, or sacrificed his first born to get to the ECF's, no amount of stuff you guys spew will change the fact that the man of record running this organization was Joe Dumars! -Oracle

LOL! I don't think we are trying to rewrite the record books Oracle nor deny that Joe was the man in place. I don't think not one single time did any of us say the word hate in reference to Joe but you're stating what we are saying is hate based. What keep getting missed IMO in this discussion that neither myself, Don or DX have a real interest in 2nd place so it's only naturally that we would question Joe's decision process. Really since when did we decided to lower the bar to assess 2nd and 3rd place to be an honor accomplishment. The only thing in that record that matters is the 1 NBA Title and perhaps the 2005 season IMO but you and many others think differently about it.

It's not even that we're saying that some of the moves Joe made weren't good sound moves I don't think any of us said that the entire process was all derived from luck. We're just not pushing the idea of complete genius in the moves he made. I think yours and others refusal include luck played a huge part is strange considering things outside of that record.

We're not dismissive of the record and it is indeed an indication of accomplishment but that of failure as well. Again you see 8 ECF appearances and I see 6 ECF failures and 1 NBA title (that's 1 out of 8 attempts) but if playing for attempts was the true measure than Joe perhaps was a genius and his record should be glorified. You say who else was better and we ask who else could have only have managed 2 Final appearances in 8 attempts and that doesn't make us haters or blind to the accomplishment but what we don't do use those accomplishment to dismiss failure.

While Joes record may conclude he was better than other GM's in the league it doesn't imply greatness nor genius as much as imply failure. Being better than 80% of the GM's isn't what Joe was tasked to do he was tasked to be better than all of them more than once. It has nothing to with hate which I think was an unfair statement on your part.
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Watching the NCAA Tournament and now the NBA playoffs gets all of us questioning the abilities of our current Piston players

Post  cool breeze on Mon May 26, 2014 5:48 pm

I think my reaction whenever I tune into a playoff game is this? What the hell happened to the Detroit Pistons? There is a reason why the seats are empty. Then I go off on Joe Dumars. This has been the statement I have said to myself since Dumars signed Hunter instead of James after the Pistons won the championship. Of course I said this statement as well when Joe drafted Rodney White and Darko. HOW COULD YOU DO THAT? And of course I said the same thing when Joe traded Billups and gave away Affalo and Budinger and drafted Daye. HOW COULD YOU DO THAT JOE? DON"T YOU DO A EVEN THINK ABOUT BASKETBALL ANYMORE JOE? 

So if I am still saying how could you do that Joe, then what is Stan Van Gundy thinking right now? Does he really know how inept our players really are? No amount of coaching is going to get most of them up to speed. This is the NBA where the best athletes are successful. We do not have the best athletes. Is Stan watching game film as I write this? He must be worried. I would be worried that there might not be any way to dump our players on another team. Here are the odds relating to players we have who might get 25% better. 

Monroe - 10% chance because he has slow feet. Defense will always be a concern.

Drummond - 50% chance. Drummond has a history of not caring about playing defense the right way. He still lacks the fundamentals that guys like Steven Adams has down and Adams is only 20 years old. 

Jennings - 30% chance. Brandon has really good quickness. He could get better with his decision making skills and being he hates playing defense at all, he might be forced to play harder on that end or he won't get playing time. Still he doesn't have an NBA body type. 

Smith - 10% chance. Josh has never listened to one coach in his entire life so far. He might not have the ability to improve because he doesn't really care about improving. He has a fantastic contract and didn't look as if he liked playing basketball last season. He had a nasty look on his face most of the season. Smith is so impulsive that any coach will have nightmares trying to depend on him. He has never been a good 4th quarter player in his life. Josh has great potential but his athletic ability will be in the decline soon. 

Singler - 30% chance. Kyle really cares about his reputation as a player. He is also really smart. He would look a lot better on a smart team like the Spurs. Van Gundy needs to acquire smarter more developed players and if he does, Singler can easily get 30% better. 

KCP - 15-30% chance. Who knows who the real KCP is right now? He sure had a great game against the Thunder in the last regular season game. He will be one year older next year. When he played with Jennings and Smith, KCP seldom touched the basketball. But perhaps KCP will become a solid player. I will pull for him to get better. 

Will Bynum - 2% chance of improving. Will is getting old and he has never really been identified as a point guard. He is a 2 guard but is not NBA caliber because he cannot defend anyone. At times he plays like Westbrook with a small body but notice when Westbrook tries to hog the basketball, the Thunder get their asses beat. Will is often out of control and did I say, he hurts the team when he is on the floor playing defense? 

Harrellison - 25% chance. If his knee is OK, I hope he returns. I thought that Harrellison was a better center than either Monroe or Drummond before he was injured. He can hit an outside shot and seems fundamentally sound. His big problem for me is that he was not in good basketball shape last year. He needs to drop a lot of weight and get quicker and become more confident. But this guy does have potential to get a lot better. Still I question his work ethic because no pro player should allow themselves to become over weight. 

Datome: 5% chance. This player looked like a lost puppy last season. Why did Dumars sign him again? He is not a good defender. He was supposed to be a great outside shooter but showed bad technique and just seemed to be out of his element playing the NBA game. 

Our Number one draft pick: 0 % chance. Oh, I forgot we won't get that pick. How did that happen again. Can you explain that Mr. Gores? The best draft in 10 years and we don't get a first round pick. Can that be?

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I've seen some sick stuff, but this takes the case...

Post  Oracle on Mon May 26, 2014 4:47 pm

"Wise, Don, those that support Joe, will support Joe, no matter what and are willing to look away from the fact that Joe Dumars had extremely good luck in putting together the 2004 championship team (which he did nothing to upgrade/maintain the eroding talent, as time went on) and during the last 3/4 of his tenure as GM, he experienced some overwhelming problems, both personal and professional. The reality is, barring a leave of absence, Joe should have been let go a long time ago." - DX

No, not that statement, though it's strange, but the whole conversation!

DX, do you care to make up any more stuff?

We've made it CLEAR that this is not in support of Joe, it's support of FACTS! We have no problem with calling Joe out for any and all of the crap he's done... have at it, and I'll be the first to join in, he screwed up some things royally!

But I don't give a sh!t if he tripped over a banana peel and got to the finals, or sacrificed his first born to get to the ECF's, no amount of stuff you guys spew will change the fact that the man of record running this organization was Joe Dumars!

Nothing you say will make any reasonable person believe that all of the moves required, and the years of building to get to where we could win it all was the result of simple blind dudah luck!

It says more about you guys than it does about Joe!

BTW, apply that silly logic to every other GM, or even your own posts, it's crazy!

The draft is a crap shoot, and there are no sure superstars, only educated guesses!

In the early years, Joe picked players more on character than anything else, and it paid off on chemistry and team culture! I guess that's luck too!

I'm done, it's impossible to penetrate hate!
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Oracle Said Joe Genius Was Just Taking A Nap

Post  WTF on Mon May 26, 2014 4:47 pm

@deusXango wrote:Wise, Don, those that support Joe, will support Joe, no matter what and are willing to look away from the fact that Joe Dumars had extremely good luck in putting together the 2004 championship team (which he did nothing to upgrade/maintain the eroding talent, as time went on) and during the last 3/4 of his tenure as GM, he experienced some overwhelming problems, both personal and professional. The reality is, barring a leave of absence, Joe should have been let go a long time ago.

Joe got lucky with the acquisition of Ben Wallace...who knew that a 6 foot 9 center who couldn't hit a free throw to save his life, would be the cornerstone of a championship team?

Jerry Stackhouse, the high-flying SG from North Carolina, who couldn't get past the fact he couldn't split defenses with that ridiculous spin move, flamed out whenever the pressure of the playoffs came up, was traded for an unwanted, skinny, mid-range shooter from UConn, who went on to become the highest scorer in Pistons playoff history...a trade we were predicted to be the losers in...pure luck, more than strategy.

Not making a concerted effort to retain Chauncey was the first of many mistakes Minnesota was to make in the days to come; their loss, our gain and to be perfectly honest, I credit Joe with being pro-active with that one, but who'd of thought Chauncey was championship material? Luck?

Rick Carlyle? An untried rookie coach?! Who'd have thought he would have two back-to-back 50 win seasons straight out the gate and make it to the ECF in his second year before being fired? That wasn't luck in a coaching hire? Why wasn't Banjo, Kuester, Lil' Larry, or Cheeks touched with that same magic Carlyle was?

During the last 3/4 of Joe's GM career he sh!t on those very players who made him the winning GM he had become; he dumped talent because of their contracts, because "he was getting Ben's money together," he was quoted as saying on more than one occasion. Come time to pay Ben (the face of the franchise and most marketable player) he didn't do anymore than lowball the man, who'd played his heart out for peanuts for the Pistons. The teams talent base had been eroded by the time Chicago came in and signed Ben Wallace away from us. There was not only not replacing Big Ben, but no replacing Corliss, Memo, Darko, or Mike James. For the record, I think Darko may have been a different player if he had the experience of playing with Rasheed and McDyess after Ben was gone, but that's water under the bridge. He sh!t on the man.
He traded Chauncey for Stuckey to take over the team (prematurely) more than for CAP space; he broke up an All-Star backcourt by trading the floor general and team leader...this was after reassuring Chauncey of his place on the team during a golf outing. He sh!t on the man.
The sad case of Rip Hamilton is one that'll go down in my mind as one of the most demeaning displays of appreciation, by a franchise known for it's great guard play, with the insertion of Stuckey in the starting backcourt (no matter what) and a fool like Michael Curry to figure out who should be the other starting guard; Iverson or Hamilton? Joe's only intervention was to protect Stuckey, thus sh!t!ng on Rip!

With Stuckey firmly entrenched in the backcourt and confusion reigning in the locker room, Afflalo, Johnson, and McDyess was traded away also; the Pistons were on a downward spiral, which continues to this very day (this is why I'm pulling so hard for SVG!). We passed over PG prospect after prospect, because we (some of us) were snowed with that "traditional PG's are a thing of the past;" combo guards and hybrid forwards are the wave of the future, a future that's not arrived yet. So much for Joe the visionary.

What was Austin Daye about? Why was Maxiell and Bynum given so much play, with their undersized asses? Why draft Knight and not give him the benefit of completing his rookie contract? Was he that bad? I think he had begun to outplay Stuckey and with the fan rumblings about Stuckey coming off the bench, it was clearly time for BK7 to go. The ball was taken out of Stuckey's hands and placed in a sideshow clowns hands who is more colorful than Bynum.

I remember clearly, on this forum, posters would project what Joe was going to do by the trade deadline; a deadline that when it came, Joe's spin doctors would explain why we were standing pat. Year after damn year?! Those projections were made because the knowledgeable posters on here realized we needed help and the help we needed was available. We didn't need to improve on Daye, Stuckey, Maxiell, Bynum, Jerebko or Prince, but we needed to resign all those guys, but Daye. We were going down under Joe's watch and burning coaches like tinder. Karen Davidson was the blame! Her biggest fault was trusting Joe with the health of the franchise and not firing his ass. For his hands to be tied, he certainly made some f#cked up moves.

If none of the first wave of champions, the Bad Boys, couldn't get a position under Dumars leadership, much more than "picking up paper" or "cleaning toilets," let's us all know what loyalty means to this man...oh yeah! He listens to MJ. He loved Mike so much, he named his first born after him, so it comes as no surprise to me that he took advise from someone outside the organization over someone inside it; someone who is vindictive and the professional enemy of our beloved Pistons. Ben, Chauncey, Rip, and Laimbeer weren't the only ones he sh!t on...he sh!t on the fans too!!!! It's a shame because he was a hell of a basketball player.

DX, I brought this luck thing up back in 2006 and was taken to the wood shed on it but I stuck to my guns on it and wouldn't back down then and won't do it now.
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WOW! WOW! and I raise you another WOW!

Post  WTF on Mon May 26, 2014 4:42 pm

@Oracle wrote:
WISEFAN wrote:
@Oracle wrote:Faulty memories cause this silly diminishment of Joe! Your over-stating and rewriting history.  

1. Joe engineered the Hill for Ben & Chuckey S&T - a stroke of genius Not true - Who picked the players, THAT'S the genius, NOT the S&T
2. Joe recognized Chauncey & RIP as needed pieces
3. Joe got Carlisle as the first coach
4. Joe engineered the trades that got us the alternatorz, the best 2nd unit in basketball
5. Having 99% of championship pieces together, Joe got Larry Brown then Sheed, and the rest is history!

So all of this was luck? The years of building towards that one goal? No just a lot of it

Moving from the teal to the Stackhouse years, to the Chauncey/RIP/Curry years, to the final lineup of 2004 years!

PLEASE, this would be funny if it wasn't so sad!

If this was all stroke of genius then my question is what happened after 2004 and why was genius applied the second time?  because the record will then show the team declining each year after.  



It was genius because Joe did the hard homework and made great decisions!

The stupidity came later when he actually believed that HE was the genius, but the genius is in the hard work, not totally in the man!

In short, Joe started believing in his press clippings and stopped working hard, and that happens all of the time,  the fact that you want to read more into it is bothersome
!

The fact that you and others weren't sh!tting bricks about this is bothersome. How could you simply write it off as to say sh!t happens. This Fat Fu@k was making 5 million a season to get this team to the finals and pocketed over 70 million in 14 seasons. Fact: 1 NBA Title cost 70 million  facepalm 
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I Popped A Blood Vessel My Brain Hurts

Post  WTF on Mon May 26, 2014 4:32 pm

So what your saying is that all of a sudden Joe just stop doing his homework and no longer could see into the future to make better decision after the success he had with building to the 2004 championship.

You are telling me that all of a sudden he can no longer identify hidden gems like Big Ben, or find anymore Tayshuans and Memos in the draft nor could he rebuild the bench well the team core was still intact.

What I find hard to believe is that you and others are making claims on genius but then say genius just disappeared. Short of being knock in the head with a hammer and losing your senses genius just don't come in go so easily. What does come and go easily is Good Luck and Bad Luck and its more than probable that my assertion of luck are more believable than Joe just deciding to feel himself and stop working hard because he bought into his press clippings. Oracle that would be a stretch at the truth.

NBA Titles are the goal and the records show only 1 title at the end of a 14 year tenure. Yours and others refusal to ask the question as to why only one will always refuse to look beyond the un-telling facts about the failure of genius repeating itself but focus a record of close but no cigar. The reason why I was an early advocate of firing Joe is that I don't believe in second place and neither will I cheer for it as some great accomplishment.

Fact: Championship are why teams play. Fact: Joe only has one in 14 seasons. Really is this okay that we should tout him as genius? The other thing that bothers be in the Joe genius **** is that many of us witness the genius of a Pistons general manager before in Trader Jack. Joe task was to re-up his bench each season after 2004 and he couldn't and you are basically saying it was because Joe started feeling himself...
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A good Joe

Post  deusXango on Mon May 26, 2014 4:14 pm

Wise, Don, those that support Joe, will support Joe, no matter what and are willing to look away from the fact that Joe Dumars had extremely good luck in putting together the 2004 championship team (which he did nothing to upgrade/maintain the eroding talent, as time went on) and during the last 3/4 of his tenure as GM, he experienced some overwhelming problems, both personal and professional. The reality is, barring a leave of absence, Joe should have been let go a long time ago.

Joe got lucky with the acquisition of Ben Wallace...who knew that a 6 foot 9 center who couldn't hit a free throw to save his life, would be the cornerstone of a championship team?

Jerry Stackhouse, the high-flying SG from North Carolina, who couldn't get past the fact he couldn't split defenses with that ridiculous spin move, flamed out whenever the pressure of the playoffs came up, was traded for an unwanted, skinny, mid-range shooter from UConn, who went on to become the highest scorer in Pistons playoff history...a trade we were predicted to be the losers in...pure luck, more than strategy.

Not making a concerted effort to retain Chauncey was the first of many mistakes Minnesota was to make in the days to come; their loss, our gain and to be perfectly honest, I credit Joe with being pro-active with that one, but who'd of thought Chauncey was championship material? Luck?

Rick Carlyle? An untried rookie coach?! Who'd have thought he would have two back-to-back 50 win seasons straight out the gate and make it to the ECF in his second year before being fired? That wasn't luck in a coaching hire? Why wasn't Banjo, Kuester, Lil' Larry, or Cheeks touched with that same magic Carlyle was?

During the last 3/4 of Joe's GM career he sh!t on those very players who made him the winning GM he had become; he dumped talent because of their contracts, because "he was getting Ben's money together," he was quoted as saying on more than one occasion. Come time to pay Ben (the face of the franchise and most marketable player) he didn't do anymore than lowball the man, who'd played his heart out for peanuts for the Pistons. The teams talent base had been eroded by the time Chicago came in and signed Ben Wallace away from us. There was not only not replacing Big Ben, but no replacing Corliss, Memo, Darko, or Mike James. For the record, I think Darko may have been a different player if he had the experience of playing with Rasheed and McDyess after Ben was gone, but that's water under the bridge. He sh!t on the man.
He traded Chauncey for Stuckey to take over the team (prematurely) more than for CAP space; he broke up an All-Star backcourt by trading the floor general and team leader...this was after reassuring Chauncey of his place on the team during a golf outing. He sh!t on the man.
The sad case of Rip Hamilton is one that'll go down in my mind as one of the most demeaning displays of appreciation, by a franchise known for it's great guard play, with the insertion of Stuckey in the starting backcourt (no matter what) and a fool like Michael Curry to figure out who should be the other starting guard; Iverson or Hamilton? Joe's only intervention was to protect Stuckey, thus sh!t!ng on Rip!

With Stuckey firmly entrenched in the backcourt and confusion reigning in the locker room, Afflalo, Johnson, and McDyess was traded away also; the Pistons were on a downward spiral, which continues to this very day (this is why I'm pulling so hard for SVG!). We passed over PG prospect after prospect, because we (some of us) were snowed with that "traditional PG's are a thing of the past;" combo guards and hybrid forwards are the wave of the future, a future that's not arrived yet. So much for Joe the visionary.

What was Austin Daye about? Why was Maxiell and Bynum given so much play, with their undersized asses? Why draft Knight and not give him the benefit of completing his rookie contract? Was he that bad? I think he had begun to outplay Stuckey and with the fan rumblings about Stuckey coming off the bench, it was clearly time for BK7 to go. The ball was taken out of Stuckey's hands and placed in a sideshow clowns hands who is more colorful than Bynum.

I remember clearly, on this forum, posters would project what Joe was going to do by the trade deadline; a deadline that when it came, Joe's spin doctors would explain why we were standing pat. Year after damn year?! Those projections were made because the knowledgeable posters on here realized we needed help and the help we needed was available. We didn't need to improve on Daye, Stuckey, Maxiell, Bynum, Jerebko or Prince, but we needed to resign all those guys, but Daye. We were going down under Joe's watch and burning coaches like tinder. Karen Davidson was the blame! Her biggest fault was trusting Joe with the health of the franchise and not firing his ass. For his hands to be tied, he certainly made some f#cked up moves.

If none of the first wave of champions, the Bad Boys, couldn't get a position under Dumars leadership, much more than "picking up paper" or "cleaning toilets," let's us all know what loyalty means to this man...oh yeah! He listens to MJ. He loved Mike so much, he named his first born after him, so it comes as no surprise to me that he took advise from someone outside the organization over someone inside it; someone who is vindictive and the professional enemy of our beloved Pistons. Ben, Chauncey, Rip, and Laimbeer weren't the only ones he sh!t on...he sh!t on the fans too!!!! It's a shame because he was a hell of a basketball player.
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Wow!!!

Post  Oracle on Mon May 26, 2014 3:54 pm

WISEFAN wrote:
@Oracle wrote:Faulty memories cause this silly diminishment of Joe! Your over-stating and rewriting history.  

1. Joe engineered the Hill for Ben & Chuckey S&T - a stroke of genius Not true - Who picked the players, THAT'S the genius, NOT the S&T
2. Joe recognized Chauncey & RIP as needed pieces
3. Joe got Carlisle as the first coach
4. Joe engineered the trades that got us the alternatorz, the best 2nd unit in basketball
5. Having 99% of championship pieces together, Joe got Larry Brown then Sheed, and the rest is history!

So all of this was luck? The years of building towards that one goal? No just a lot of it

Moving from the teal to the Stackhouse years, to the Chauncey/RIP/Curry years, to the final lineup of 2004 years!

PLEASE, this would be funny if it wasn't so sad!

If this was all stroke of genius then my question is what happened after 2004 and why was genius applied the second time?  because the record will then show the team declining each year after.  



It was genius because Joe did the hard homework and made great decisions!

The stupidity came later when he actually believed that HE was the genius, but the genius is in the hard work, not totally in the man!

In short, Joe started believing in his press clippings and stopped working hard, and that happens all of the time,  the fact that you want to read more into it is bothersome!
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LOL

Post  WTF on Mon May 26, 2014 3:49 pm

@Oracle wrote:Wise, FACTS don't give a crap about your feelings!

How in the world could you hold Joe responsible for failures but not successes!

The FACT is that the record books don't give a crap about how you did it, just that you did it! The record books don't care but I do he should have an (*) placed next to it.

You pulled the same stuff with Cleaves, and it's way more than odd! Ignoring what happened in an effort to diminish the person speaks of some deeper issues!

Cleaves & Joe accomplished GREAT things, things that others aren't capable of.

Your feelings and claims of luck and accident are irrelevant, they can't change the record books, and ultimately doesn't matter.

Sparma, you should stop trying to figure this out, there's no logic to be applied! We accept that some people prefer red over blue, or apples over oranges, but we don't debate if a apple is an orange.

Fact Cleaves sucked as pro and Joe just been fired
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O'Brother

Post  WTF on Mon May 26, 2014 3:41 pm


Lets not keep overstating things:
On August 3, 2000, he was traded along with Chucky Atkins to the Detroit Pistons for Grant Hill, in what was at the time considered a one-sided trade; Hill had planned to sign with Orlando as an unrestricted free agent, but the sign and trade deal allowed Hill to receive a slightly more lucrative contract while Detroit received at least some compensation for losing its marquee player.
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Oracle

Post  WTF on Mon May 26, 2014 3:31 pm

@Oracle wrote:Faulty memories cause this silly diminishment of Joe! Your over-stating and rewriting history.

1. Joe engineered the Hill for Ben & Chuckey S&T - a stroke of genius Not true
2. Joe recognized Chauncey & RIP as needed pieces
3. Joe got Carlisle as the first coach
4. Joe engineered the trades that got us the alternatorz, the best 2nd unit in basketball
5. Having 99% of championship pieces together, Joe got Larry Brown then Sheed, and the rest is history!

So all of this was luck? The years of building towards that one goal? No just a lot of it

Moving from the teal to the Stackhouse years, to the Chauncey/RIP/Curry years, to the final lineup of 2004 years!

PLEASE, this would be funny if it wasn't so sad!

If this was all stroke of genius then my question is what happened after 2004 and why was genius applied the second time? because the record will then show the team declining each year after.


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BTW, how Joe got to the championship was a well thought out process

Post  Oracle on Mon May 26, 2014 3:10 pm

Faulty memories cause this silly diminishment of Joe!

1. Joe engineered the Hill for Ben & Chuckey S&T - a stroke of genius
2. Joe recognized Chauncey & RIP as needed pieces
3. Joe got Carlisle as the first coach
4. Joe engineered the trades that got us the alternatorz, the best 2nd unit in basketball
5. Having 99% of championship pieces together, Joe got Larry Brown then Sheed, and the rest is history!

So all of this was luck? The years of building towards that one goal?

Moving from the teal to the Stackhouse years, to the Chauncey/RIP/Curry years, to the final lineup of 2004 years!

PLEASE, this would be funny if it wasn't so sad!
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What Wise will do to avoid FACTS!

Post  Oracle on Mon May 26, 2014 3:01 pm

Wise, FACTS don't give a crap about your feelings!

How in the world could you hold Joe responsible for failures but not successes!

The FACT is that the record books don't give a crap about how you did it, just that you did it!

You pulled the same stuff with Cleaves, and it's way more than odd! Ignoring what happened in an effort to diminish the person speaks of some deeper issues!

Cleaves & Joe accomplished GREAT things, things that others aren't capable of.

Your feelings and claims of luck and accident are irrelevant, they can't change the record books, and ultimately doesn't matter.

Sparma, you should stop trying to figure this out, there's no logic to be applied! We accept that some people prefer red over blue, or apples over oranges, but we don't debate if a apple is an orange.
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Wise

Post  Sparma on Mon May 26, 2014 1:41 pm


Passing grade for six seasons?? "above average"? I think you're fudging with the fact of six years of excellence with those descriptions.

I do agree with the strategy you're suggesting for defending your outrageous claim that it was all luck: boil the success down to a small number of choices, the effect of which carries over for years: the acquisition of the Wallaces, of Billups, of Rip, and Prince. Especially in the cases of Ben and Rip, I'll agree there was some luck involved. It can't be forgotten that there were other important acquisitions like Okur, Corliss, and Eldon Campbell, and later McDyess. Also, I'm having a hard time wrapping my mind around the acquisition of one of the best starting 5s ever being ALL luck. What would be odds be of that? Beyond that (controversy alert!) you could argue that Dumars got unextremely unlucky in getting virtually no return from the consensus #2 (or at worst #3 pick), a guy whose low end was compared to Garnett and high end to Wilt.

Beyond that, there's the uncomfortable fact that you attribute all of Joe's success to luck but no part of his failures to misfortune. Where's the consistency? I guess it's just in your claim that a "dumb" guy got lucky for a while.

WISEFAN wrote:What are the odds that, by chance, in a class of 30, a kid in the lowest 10 % in ability scores in the top 13.3% percent not once, but six years in a row? - Sparma


In sticking with the multiple choice analogy Joe may have received a passing grade six consecutive seasons but the question didn't change from test to test only some of the answers.  Steadily his test scores decrease and only the familiarity with some the questions kept his score above average. What I mean is while it was easy to answer the obvious question such as: Keeping the core intact he failed miserably on the following question.

Q2. As GM how do you improve the team A. Stand Pat and do nothing. B. Make a bold trade. C. Fire the coach D. Draft wisely. Well of course we all know what that answers was as 7 different coaches felled victim under his regime.

This was a constant question that Joe could never answer correctly as each year the team got worse and worse so did Joe's test score. Example: 2004 A+,
2005 A,  2006 B+,  2007 B,  2008 B-, 2009 C-,  2010 F, 2011 F, 2012 F, 2013 F, 2014 incomplete.

Joe was never able to maintain an A average for 9 straight years since 2004 Joe kept coming up with the wrong answers to a repeated question. One test, one class, and six different attempts to come up with the right answers. Not six different classes, not six different test'
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Sparma

Post  WTF on Mon May 26, 2014 12:07 pm

What are the odds that, by chance, in a class of 30, a kid in the lowest 10 % in ability scores in the top 13.3% percent not once, but six years in a row? - Sparma


In sticking with the multiple choice analogy Joe may have received a passing grade six consecutive seasons but the question didn't change from test to test only some of the answers.  Steadily his test scores decrease and only the familiarity with some the questions kept his score above average. What I mean is while it was easy to answer the obvious question such as: Keeping the core intact he failed miserably on the following question.

Q2. As GM how do you improve the team A. Stand Pat and do nothing. B. Make a bold trade. C. Fire the coach D. Draft wisely. Well of course we all know what that answers was as 7 different coaches felled victim under his regime.

This was a constant question that Joe could never answer correctly as each year the team got worse and worse so did Joe's test score. Example: 2004 A+,
2005 A,  2006 B+,  2007 B,  2008 B-, 2009 C-,  2010 F, 2011 F, 2012 F, 2013 F, 2014 incomplete.

Joe was never able to maintain an A average for 9 straight years since 2004 Joe kept coming up with the wrong answers to a repeated question. One test, one class, and six different attempts to come up with the right answers. Not six different classes, not six different test'
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Wise

Post  Sparma on Mon May 26, 2014 10:41 am

Now we're getting somewhere! I like how dramatic your analogy is, except that I think one revision is needed. According to your analogy, Joe's "the dumb kid" who gets lucky on multiple choice, getting ranked really high [in the top 4 out of 30]. The revision needed is that this happens not in one class but in six classes in a row. You call him "the" dumb kid, but let's just stick him in the bottom three out of thirty students. What are the odds that, by chance, in a class of 30, a kid in the lowest 10 % in ability scores in the top 13.3% percent not once, but six years in a row? Maybe Oracle can help specify those odds, but they're going to be astronomical.

Wise: Joe's the dumb kid who got lucky on multiple choice, getting ranke
WISEFAN wrote:How in the hell did we even land on the subject of this Fat Ass ?  facepalm 

He's gone and good riddance. Okay I guess at the end of the day one could look at the numbers and say Joe is right there but I like to apply a different analogy that I find more suitable at summing up Joe's success and its called luck. Good Luck! Bad Luck! Dumb Luck!.  Joe would be like the dumb kid in class that struck gold taking a multiple choice quiz with his eyes closed and doing better than smarter kids in class.  He was then wrongly promoted to the next grade wrongly on the assumption he was just as smart as the A students.

Though Joe sits there with some of the top students in class he could never repeat the luck of that first quiz and people that is Joes career in a nutshell and if you want to give him credit for Luck! so be it but I refuse to do so.  A smarted teacher would have questioned rather there was some cheating involved or simply retested him because he immediately went back to showing signs of being the dumb kid starting with his selection of Darko on his next multiple choice quiz.

Q1. As GM of the Pistons would you choose _______ to build a contending franchise?  A. Anthony, B. Bosh, C. Wade, or D. Darko. We all know how Joe answered that question on the multiple choice quiz  facepalm 

Right before they won it all back in 2004 Joe stated in an interview that he didn't know the team was capable of winning until they got the finals he just thought he had a good team.  Kind of a strange thing to say considering the team had already been to 2 ECF prior but it spoke volumes about Joe failures after 2004.   It was like reading a tea leafs, I seen it all coming because I realized that it was all a fluke not the team but the General Manager.

MJ saw how flawed Joe was as a fellow student and seek out every opportunity to take advantage of his classmate Joe. Really was it bad luck that Joe selected Knight and not Kemba?  If MJ wasn't persuading Joe into dumb draft picks he was stealing draft pick in dumb trades time and time again he has found ways to take advantage of Joe.
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No More Dumars

Post  WTF on Mon May 26, 2014 7:20 am

How in the hell did we even land on the subject of this Fat Ass ?  facepalm 

He's gone and good riddance. Okay I guess at the end of the day one could look at the numbers and say Joe is right there but I like to apply a different analogy that I find more suitable at summing up Joe's success and its called luck. Good Luck! Bad Luck! Dumb Luck!.  Joe would be like the dumb kid in class that struck gold taking a multiple choice quiz with his eyes closed and doing better than smarter kids in class.  He was then wrongly promoted to the next grade wrongly on the assumption he was just as smart as the A students.

Though Joe sits there with some of the top students in class he could never repeat the luck of that first quiz and people that is Joes career in a nutshell and if you want to give him credit for Luck! so be it but I refuse to do so.  A smarted teacher would have questioned rather there was some cheating involved or simply retested him because he immediately went back to showing signs of being the dumb kid starting with his selection of Darko on his next multiple choice quiz.

Q1. As GM of the Pistons would you choose _______ to build a contending franchise?  A. Anthony, B. Bosh, C. Wade, or D. Darko. We all know how Joe answered that question on the multiple choice quiz  facepalm 

Right before they won it all back in 2004 Joe stated in an interview that he didn't know the team was capable of winning until they got the finals he just thought he had a good team.  Kind of a strange thing to say considering the team had already been to 2 ECF prior but it spoke volumes about Joe failures after 2004.   It was like reading a tea leafs, I seen it all coming because I realized that it was all a fluke not the team but the General Manager.

MJ saw how flawed Joe was as a fellow student and seek out every opportunity to take advantage of his classmate Joe. Really was it bad luck that Joe selected Knight and not Kemba? If MJ wasn't persuading Joe into dumb draft picks he was stealing draft pick in dumb trades time and time again he has found ways to take advantage of Joe.
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Re: FORUM

Post  Phil1980boy on Mon May 26, 2014 2:50 am

1. Mitch Kupchak 4 NBA Titles 6 Conferens Titles 7 Division Titles
2. RC Buford 3 NBA Titles 4 Conference 8 Division Titles
3. Pat Riley 2 NBA Titles 3 Conference Titles 4 Division Titles

Right here is where Joe Dumars belongs. 4th on the List. Nobody has done what Joe has done under him but Ainge and Detroit went to move eastern conference finals then Boston when they had they big 3.

4. Danny Ainge 1 NBA Title 2 Conference Titles 6 Division Titles
5. Donnie Nelson 1 NBA Title 2 Conference Title 2 Division Titles
6. Sam Presti 0 NBA Titles 1 Conference Title 3 Division Titles
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Re: FORUM

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