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It comes down to scouting...

Post  deusXango on Fri Sep 20, 2013 8:37 pm

Go Stones! wrote:The draft and scouting is typically how Detroit will improve their team.  This is b/c the big free agent names wish to be in sexy towns like Miami, LA, NY, etc.  Detroit got lucky with Smith and have drafted successfully of late.    

Thought I would start another topic...this SF prediction when we haven't even see PonyTail play in the NBA and against NBA players is quite ridiculous.    
Stones, your points are well taken, but when the Pistons acquire new talent through the draft, why do we insist on playing the stale, played out veterans, even when we know in our heart of hearts that they will end up sucking? The new blood, who's probably kicking their asses in practices, becomes apathetic and eventually useless for us, and ends up being traded...that has been our past practice and seems to be where we are currently. Let me give you a for instance; I'd rather have seen Drummond playing next to Monroe last year, instead of Maxiell, if we were to win only 29 games!! Bring him along slow, my ass, he was ready to go from jump street, certainly by the 10th game of the season.

I'm not sure which side of the fence you're on with "Pony Tail," but if you can shoot the ball, it doesn't matter which side of the ocean you're shooting it on, it's certain to go in; on the other hand, if you can't shoot and haven't worked on improving as a shooter, your individual popularity won't win games for us. I don't know why the MVP Datome won is minimized, like the league he won it in wasn't a pro league, or it was a "dog sh!t" league that couldn't compete with our AAU's. It seems to me the man can play, and play at a high level. He's also not coming into the league with outlandish heroes who he wants to be compared to, like Carmelo, or Kobe, but he wants "to be to the Pistons what Battier was to the Heat." That realistic humility sold me!!
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Central Division SG's

Post  Oracle on Fri Sep 20, 2013 7:26 pm

In this article, we rank DEAD LAST in the SG category, and it's a tough one in the Central!

Of course Paul George rules the roost, but surprisingly the Bucks rank 2nd with OJ Mayo as the starter, and Gary Neal from the Spurs coming off the bench!


Brandon Knight is going to have some fire power next to him this coming season, but neither Mayo or Neal scares anybody with their average to poor defensive efforts.

More here: http://lifeondumars.com/2013/09/20/2013-central-division-position-power-ranking-shooting-guard/
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Re: FORUM

Post  cool breeze on Fri Sep 20, 2013 5:40 pm

WISEFAN wrote:Over-valuing and under estimating players

I think Singler is Fundamentally strong as a player, and I love 4 year college players.  Singler does have a High BB IQ and I think that along with those fundamental makes him a NBA ready player.  But where I fall off the Singler Bandwagon is that none of the fore-mentioned makes up for Singler's lack of athleticism he needs at any of the three positions he can be slated for PT.  He doesn't have the strength and muscle make up to play PF, he doesn't have the quickness to at the SG position to defend it, and finally he can't create his own shot offensively to be a valued backup SF.  

The reason why I find myself on the Datome Bandwagon is that he's a far better shooter, far more athletic and a decent defender.  Overstating Singler's 1 year of NBA experience doesn't overwhelm Datome experience in Italy as a professional and this should not be under-estimated.  Nothing Singler does can be called exceptional, there is no single attribute that makes him a keeper.

I could say a lot of great things about Singler but at the end of the day he's poor fit for this team, but in the same manner Knight was.  What I find strange is how so much value is place on a player that will never be more than serviceable.  
Wisefan I don't wish to argue but you lack the inside track when it comes to what kind of players a coach needs to build a winning team. If we selected players based on what they did in the Chicago Combine for example, it is most likely that the most athletic players could not win games. There are a lot of players who never made it to the NBA but were extremely athletic and perhaps great high school players but couldn't pull off a career that Larry Bird had. Singler has always been a winner at every level of competition. How did he do that? Why do players enjoy playing with him? Ask his former Duke teammates or his high school teammates. You failed to notice how Singler covered up so many mistakes made by his teammates on defense. That is why is was on the floor if it was playing the 2 or 3. As far as his failure to create his own shot last season, please be advised that according to the coaching staff's instructions, that was not Singler's role. Other players on the team were supposed to supply the bulk of the scoring and that is why NO PLAYS were created for Singler.

Here is the final test of truth Wisefan. You have stated in another post I read today that Stuckey for sure will beat out KCP because he is much more experienced and is motivated. If Stuckey is so good, how can Singler be that bad and easily replaced by a Pony Tail guy who has never played a minute of NBA basketball? Singler beat out Stuckey for the starting 2 guard position before moving to the 3 after the Prince trade. And Stuckey sucked playing that 2 guard spot last season. You might be correct that Cheeks could select Stuckey to play either as a starter or off the bench but my bet is that Cheeks will eventually figure out that Stuckey has too many flaws and will see that KCP is a quick learner who might get time on the floor the same way Singler did last season - because he is willing to sacrifice himself on defense. What is in your heart as a player? After watching Stuckey for a long time, I can honestly say, I have no idea. I do know what is in Singler's heart. HE WANTS TO HELP CREATE A WINNING TEAM! THAT IS ALL HE HAS EVER CARED ABOUT SO HE IS NOT LIKELY TO CHANGE.

Here is your final test Wisefan. If Singler is

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Re: FORUM

Post  cool breeze on Fri Sep 20, 2013 5:16 pm

Murph wrote:First off, let me say I find it amusing that a day after a topic is brought up in this forum, such as the Singler/Datome competition at SF, that either Hayes or Feldman write an article about it.  lol lol lol 


Second, let me say this about Singler.  He's the anti-Jennings.  He doesn't look as if he's doing much on the floor, but the end results are that the Pistons play better when Singler is in the game...at least they did last season, as indicated by Singler's positive +/- numbers.  The reasons for this are fairly clear.  Singler is a facilitator, or glue guy.  He has a high basetball IQ, knows where to be, plays decent defense, moves without the ball, is a willing passer, and defers to his teammates.

Third, Singler's experience is no less impressive than Datome's.  In fact, Singler's experience is way more impressive.  Singler has played for 1 year in the NBA as a starter.  Before that, he started for Real Madrid, one of the best teams in Europe.  And before that Singler was generally considered to be Duke's MVP, leading them deep into the NCAA Tournament for 4 straight years, including a National Championship against Bulter, where Singler scored a team high 19, with 9 rbds, 2 asts, 2 blks and a steal.  Singler started all 4 years at Duke.

And finally, I don't agree that he's less athetic than Datome.  Singler is big for a SF, he's reasonable fast and quick, and he has a good motor.  Admittedly his lateral movement is lacking.  But Singler does way more on the court than Datome, who is basically a 1 dimensional shooter.
Your analysis makes much more sense than Feldman's Murph. I see the same thing in Singler and can add this. Ask any college head coach who had to prepare a game plan before their team played Duke when Singler was at Duke especially for Singler's last two seasons in college. They will tell you that the game plan was set up to combat what Singler brought on both offense and defense. It is amazing that so many fans ignored what Singler did for the Pistons last season relating to help defense and weak side rebounding. He knows where he needs to be on the floor on both ends and that fact separates him from a lot of current players who are currently in rotations on NBA teams. Singler plays best with other smart players. There was a quote from Jerebco last season that was telling. He said that he likes to play and is more effective when Singler is on the floor with him. It is true that Jerebco's weakness has been his inconsistent outside shooting. But he is a smart player who plays hard and should be in the rotation with this team. Players who forgot where they should be and had a lot of mental lapses last season were Stuckey, Charlie V, Bynum, Monroe and Drummond. Drummond was a rookie and he made up for a lot of his mistakes on defense because he is extremely athletic and didn't give up in screw up situations. Knight at least knew where he was supposed to be on both offense and defense. He just made a lot of mistakes with the ball but he was a 2nd year point guard which is normal. There can be no excuses for older players that I have mentioned who didn't know rotation positioning on defense and often were in the wrong spots on offense. Somehow Mr. Feldman and many Piston fans refuse to focus on mistakes that other current team members keep making year after year and would prefer to take a critical look at two players who are least trying to do the right thing for their team. That would be Singler and Jerebco the same players so many of you want traded. But this is not unusual because this was the way it was before Dumars gave away Affalo. I read so many posts by fans who didn't see any value in keeping Affalo. But after he left and became a starter with Denver, all of that talk was forgotten. Nothing changes it seems.

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Jennings

Post  lemonpen on Fri Sep 20, 2013 2:19 pm

Seems to me we gotta peer over the top of our HOPE glasses and look more indepth into what made the Bucks better when BJ exited the floor. The reason I say this is we had a situation here that could suggest the same conclusion about almost any of last years starters. For a long stretch of games when Willie B and Drummond had our bench looking like world beaters I'm pretty sure the team was statistically more productive on both ends of the court when the starters sat.

Just sayin, it's about to be a new day. dance pom pom dance pom pom dance pom pom dance pom pom dance 
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It comes down to scouting...

Post  Go Stones! on Fri Sep 20, 2013 1:49 pm

The draft and scouting is typically how Detroit will improve their team. This is b/c the big free agent names wish to be in sexy towns like Miami, LA, NY, etc. Detroit got lucky with Smith and have drafted successfully of late.

I was recently looking at a Detroit Tigers article that showed how how they have been so successful building this current team through trades. They got Miggy, Fister, Sanchez, Jackson, Infante and Iglasias. They gave up a lot, however, time has proven that the Tigers are masters when they trade. (They also have plenty of money to work with...I know!) The only established players who have come up from their system is Avila, Dirks, Portecello, Smyly and Verlander. I may have missed some, but you get the point.

Baseball doesn't = basketball, I know, and there are more baseball players than basketball players, I know. The main point is that if we have really good scouts looking at all players (there are really very few that are out there compared to football and baseball and even hockey) in the league, we should be able to get some good upgrades with trades. It will also take good money management. Gores may actually give Dumars more cash to work with once he has proven he can do more with less.

Thought I would start another topic...this SF prediction when we haven't even see PonyTail play in the NBA and against NBA players is quite ridiculous.
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5 on 5

Post  deusXango on Fri Sep 20, 2013 1:10 pm

There's a lot of high hope being expressed by Pistons fans, and I include myself in that number, and I believe that's what been missing for the last half dozen years; hope and excitement is the grist meal that fuels fans and keep us happy.

Murph, I noticed the same thing, but wrote it off as coincidence; Feldman and Hayes are big fans of the forum!!clap  Way to go guys!

My wild-eyed thought for the day is this; so many fans support Billups, Stuckey, and Singler, but don't waste any ammunition firing shots off at Jennings, KCP, Datome, or Mitchell, so how about this? A best of 7 series, or best of 5, or 2 out of 3 games between
Team #1:
PG- Billups
              SG-Stuckey
              SF-Singler
              PF-Smith
              C- Monroe, with a bench of Villanueva and Bynum
vs. Team#2
              PG-Jennings
              SG-Caldwell-Pope
              SF-Datome
              PF-Mitchell
              C- Drummond, with a bench of Siva and Harrellson
I don't know about you, but these are scrimmages I'd pay to see! Team #1 would probably win the series (the combined experience and basketball intellect), but it'd be a dogfight from beginning to end. The point I'm getting to is this, who's kicking who's ass 2-3 years from now? How about next year? This years acquisitions, with the exception of Drummond, are worth developing, IMHO. Playing them may not save Joe's job, but playing them will damn sure give us fans some excitement now, and hope for the future.

Side bar question: why is it some of us just know that Monroe will get max contract offers from every team that can afford him next summer, but we shouldn't resign him? Our big frontline experiment hasn't even been put into play as yet, so we don't know what Monroe will do as a PF, anymore than we know what Smith will look like as a SF playing with Monroe and Drummond. I gotta get me one of those crystal balls.
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Murph

Post  WTF on Fri Sep 20, 2013 12:56 pm

Murph wrote:First off, let me say I find it amusing that a day after a topic is brought up in this forum, such as the Singler/Datome competition at SF, that either Hayes or Feldman write an article about it.  lol lol lol 


Second, let me say this about Singler.  He's the anti-Jennings.  He doesn't look as if he's doing much on the floor, but the end results are that the Pistons play better when Singler is in the game...at least they did last season, as indicated by Singler's positive +/- numbers.  The reasons for this are fairly clear.  Singler is a facilitator, or glue guy.  He has a high basetball IQ, knows where to be, plays decent defense, moves without the ball, is a willing passer, and defers to his teammates.

Third, Singler's experience is no less impressive than Datome's.  In fact, Singler's experience is way more impressive.  Singler has played for 1 year in the NBA as a starter.  Before that, he started for Real Madrid, one of the best teams in Europe.  And before that Singler was generally considered to be Duke's MVP, leading them deep into the NCAA Tournament for 4 straight years, including a National Championship against Bulter, where Singler scored a team high 19, with 9 rbds, 2 asts, 2 blks and a steal.  Singler started all 4 years at Duke.

And finally, I don't agree that he's less athetic than Datome.  Singler is big for a SF, he's reasonable fast and quick, and he has a good motor.  Admittedly his lateral movement is lacking.  But Singler does way more on the court than Datome, who is basically a 1 dimensional shooter.
Again my argument as far as experience goes lets not forget Datome is 27 years of age and has been competing against the best the American had to offer for awhile now. Still no matter how much on could make a case for Singler he does no one single thing exceptionally well and none of the things he doe collectively translate into being better than serviceable.

I guess it' preference because I rather have that one player who specializes in one needed area than a player who average at a few things. No matter how athletic Singler might be he still doesn't have the athleticism of Datome but that's not why Datome was brought here. He was brought here to knock down shots and if Singler was that guy then Datome wouldn't be here.

When I see Datome I think potentially Horry, Rice, Kucok, maybe even some AK47, or a little Okur. I can't I see that in Singler. These players for the most part were consider one dimensional players but all valuable players. Two eventually expanded their games to become starters in the NBA. Neither Datome or Singler could become what any of these players became but if I had to guess at who's closer than I would have to say it's Datome.
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Singler

Post  Murph on Fri Sep 20, 2013 12:23 pm

First off, let me say I find it amusing that a day after a topic is brought up in this forum, such as the Singler/Datome competition at SF, that either Hayes or Feldman write an article about it.  lol lol lol 


Second, let me say this about Singler.  He's the anti-Jennings.  He doesn't look as if he's doing much on the floor, but the end results are that the Pistons play better when Singler is in the game...at least they did last season, as indicated by Singler's positive +/- numbers.  The reasons for this are fairly clear.  Singler is a facilitator, or glue guy.  He has a high basetball IQ, knows where to be, plays decent defense, moves without the ball, is a willing passer, and defers to his teammates.

Third, Singler's experience is no less impressive than Datome's.  In fact, Singler's experience is way more impressive.  Singler has played for 1 year in the NBA as a starter.  Before that, he started for Real Madrid, one of the best teams in Europe.  And before that Singler was generally considered to be Duke's MVP, leading them deep into the NCAA Tournament for 4 straight years, including a National Championship against Bulter, where Singler scored a team high 19, with 9 rbds, 2 asts, 2 blks and a steal.  Singler started all 4 years at Duke.

And finally, I don't agree that he's less athetic than Datome.  Singler is big for a SF, he's reasonable fast and quick, and he has a good motor.  Admittedly his lateral movement is lacking.  But Singler does way more on the court than Datome, who is basically a 1 dimensional shooter.
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Linguine before Singler

Post  Sebastian on Fri Sep 20, 2013 11:56 am

WISEFAN wrote:Over-valuing and under estimating players

I think Singler is Fundamentally strong as a player, and I love 4 year college players.  Singler does have a High BB IQ and I think that along with those fundamental makes him a NBA ready player.  But where I fall off the Singler Bandwagon is that none of the fore-mentioned makes up for Singler's lack of athleticism he needs at any of the three positions he can be slated for PT.  He doesn't have the strength and muscle make up to play PF, he doesn't have the quickness to at the SG position to defend it, and finally he can't create his own shot offensively to be a valued backup SF.  

The reason why I find myself on the Datome Bandwagon is that he's a far better shooter, far more athletic and a decent defender.  Overstating Singler's 1 year of NBA experience doesn't overwhelm Datome experience in Italy as a professional and this should not be under-estimated.  Nothing Singler does can be called exceptional, there is no single attribute that makes him a keeper.

I could say a lot of great things about Singler but at the end of the day he's poor fit for this team, but in the same manner Knight was.  What I find strange is how so much value is place on a player that will never be more than serviceable.  
Also, Linguine is the reigning Italian Basketball MVP. I would agree that Linguine may see the floor, before Singler. Linguine may prove to be a great piece as the 7th-man, and as I have commented before Singler would make a good player, as OUR 9th or 10th option.



But, noway how you slice it, this is the most talented roster that WE've had in years.


Last edited by Sebastian on Fri Sep 20, 2013 2:31 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Side Articles

Post  WTF on Fri Sep 20, 2013 10:53 am

Funny one article questions if Jebreko and Singler will have roles on the team and the other article say's Mitchell will have the least impact of all rookies. Too Funny!

Mitchell will have some impact because he's likely to end up with the 12th spot in the rotation, we already know that Datome and KCP are locked into PT and that Siva likely headed to the D-League. I'm still banking that either both or at least one (Singler or JJ) will be traded by end of training camp.
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DX Billups and Stuckey Lock On SG Position

Post  WTF on Fri Sep 20, 2013 10:46 am

DX, Cheeks can give KCP all the opportunity in the world for the starting the SG position, and he still won't beat out either Chauncey or Stuckey for that spot. Though Chauncey may have lost a step or two he is just simply far way too experienced and savvy. Keep in mind this guy could still possibly be the starting PG in spite of Jennings being on the roster.

As for him beating out Stuckey you would have to assume we're getting the Stuckey of the past 2 seasons. A more motivated Stuckey would prove tough to beat out. In the case of Stuckey he would have to have a complete collapse or be traded before KCP would or could b propelled to start or get significant minutes. At this point Stuckey is a better defender, stronger and has the weight of experience. If KCP isn't shooting lights out in training camp he won't be getting the minutes of the three guards ahead of him (Jennings, Stuckey, Billups)

In a nutshell KCP is a rookie and he has a lot to learn before beating out any of them at this point. KCP is not on the level of this guys until he proves it. As Oracle stated it's all on these players to change the minds of coaches and dictate how much time they get on the floor. To date I haven't seen anything from KCP that say's he better and it may take more than a single training camp to prove it, but this is a win now season and this is how the roster will likely be played out.

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Don Singler vs Datome

Post  WTF on Fri Sep 20, 2013 10:22 am

Over-valuing and under estimating players

I think Singler is Fundamentally strong as a player, and I love 4 year college players. Singler does have a High BB IQ and I think that along with those fundamental makes him a NBA ready player. But where I fall off the Singler Bandwagon is that none of the fore-mentioned makes up for Singler's lack of athleticism he needs at any of the three positions he can be slated for PT. He doesn't have the strength and muscle make up to play PF, he doesn't have the quickness to at the SG position to defend it, and finally he can't create his own shot offensively to be a valued backup SF.

The reason why I find myself on the Datome Bandwagon is that he's a far better shooter, far more athletic and a decent defender. Overstating Singler's 1 year of NBA experience doesn't overwhelm Datome experience in Italy as a professional and this should not be under-estimated. Nothing Singler does can be called exceptional, there is no single attribute that makes him a keeper.

I could say a lot of great things about Singler but at the end of the day he's poor fit for this team, but in the same manner Knight was. What I find strange is how so much value is place on a player that will never be more than serviceable.
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Jennings

Post  Murph on Fri Sep 20, 2013 8:22 am

Oracle wrote:
There was a reason that the article on Jennings said that you need to take your hope glasses off! It's not to put Jennings down, it's just a statement of FACTS that you need to know if you're going to objectively evaluate anything.

How can you say the Bucks were terrible, then see the stats that prove that the Bucks were a better team offensively and defensively when Jennings wasn't on the floor(unfortunately, it wasn't a little better, it was a LOT!)?

How is that possible? Well, it obviously means that Jennings wasn't making anybody better at BEST, and if he had a problem, he couldn't correct it at WORSE!

If you're making the team worse, it likely also forces you into those ill advised shots!
Yes...that was a pretty sobering article on Jennings:

"Next is on/off court statistics, which show how well a player’s team fares when he is on and off the court.  (This paragraph will make Pistons fans wince.)  When Jennings was on the court last season, the Milwaukee Bucks scored 103.5 points per 100 possessions and gave up 108.7.  (Ouch.)  What’s worse is that while Jennings was off the court his team improved on both sides of the ball, scoring 107.3 points per 100 possessions and giving up only 99.5.  (Double ouch.)  Additionally, the team’s eFG% increased from 47.3 percent with Jennings on the floor to 48.4 percent once he hit the bench.  Defensively, the Bucks allowed an eFG% of 49.9 percent with him on the floor and 47.3 percent with him off the floor.

There is a popular argument that Jennings didn’t have much to work with in Milwaukee, was forced to carry a heavier load and this negatively affected his statistics.  However, these on/off court stats paint quite a different picture.  If the players in Milwaukee really were that bad, what do these stats say about Jennings if these same players appear to have played much better when he was not on the floor with them?

Advanced statistics don’t tell you the whole story, but they can give you some good insight.  Jennings appears to know how to take care of the ball, but it also appears that he may not have figured out how to make his teammates better just yet.  Hopefully playing under the watchful eyes of Billups and Maurice Cheeks will provide Jennings some insight on how to do just that."




The situation is ever worse, when one considers that Jennings' sub at PG was Luke Ridenour.  I doubt there are too many Luke Ridenour fans on this forum, but it's undeniable that the Bucks played significantly better with Ridenour running the point, in place of Jennings.  facepalm 

Jennings is going to have to dratically re-vamp his game, in order to help the Pistons.  Hopefully, Billups can help in that regard.  Billups is a great facilitator as a PG.  Hopefully that mind-set will rub off on Jennings.
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DX, I know you mean well, but...

Post  Oracle on Fri Sep 20, 2013 6:03 am

deusXango wrote:Oracle, I have to agree with you that there is no one on this team that I'd want directing the offense, during tight games & crunch time, other than Chauncey Billups; that being said, I don't want him starting or playing extended minutes needlessly, because of his age and fragile physical condition. I think he's much too valuable to the team, experience wise, to recklessly run him out there on the floor just to excite yesterdays fans, today. He's our winning tool.

I don't care who says what, about Jennings game with the Bucks, he's a Piston now, and like him or not, Mo Cheeks is a better coach than he ever had in Milwaukee! Scott Skiles was not in the same class as Cheeks as a player, and a more confrontational coach you won't find (unless you bring Doug Collins back); I'm looking for a better PG here, and that's not the same as expecting a miracle. For the team investment made in obtaining Jennings, he should be our starting PG. He does too many things that none of our other PG's can't/don't do offensively, and that negative observation, that's been over-played, about his ill-advised shots, should be put on hold until we see what he does in a Pistons uniform.

If Ben McLemore had fallen to us (he damn near did) would his potential, as a successful starting SG for us, be constantly questioned, like we're doing with KCP? I mean the only legitimate SG currently on the roster is poo-pooed without setting foot on the court? A lottery pick at that! After all this team has gone through with unsuccessfully playing players out of position, we're still sold on that sh!t? Kyle Singler or Gigi Datome at SG? Come on!!! Those are SF's. Rodney Stuckey (who IMHO should be the first guard off the bench) is not starting SG material, and Chauncey has gone on record stating he doesn't want to play SG, so what's the problem? How quickly some of us forget that we didn't win 30 games, last year, and missed the playoffs for 4 years running, and most importantly, who was a major part of that ignoble decline. Fresh legs, a fresh look, and some "out of the box" strategy, for how we're going to approach building a contender, is where we should be, with the massive overhaul Joe just completed.

Peyton Siva is to be thrown to the wolves at some point, do a tour of the league (to experience the jet lag), and spend some time in the D-League; make him earn the right to sit in a suit behind the Pistons bench, by learning. Bynum is the perfect 11th man, to talk sh!t with Harrellson, and they both cheer the team on.
There was a reason that the article on Jennings said that you need to take your hope glasses off! It's not to put Jennings down, it's just a statement of FACTS that you need to know if you're going to objectively evaluate anything.

How can you say the Bucks were terrible, then see the stats that prove that the Bucks were a better team offensively and defensively when Jennings wasn't on the floor(unfortunately, it wasn't a little better, it was a LOT!)?

How is that possible? Well, it obviously means that Jennings wasn't making anybody better at BEST, and if he had a problem, he couldn't correct it at WORSE!

If you're making the team worse, it likely also forces you into those ill advised shots!

Like I said, I know where your heart is, and on that score I'm with you. However, on the players that have no stats to review, we have to admit that we're going on feeling, not facts.

Knowing that, we can't get frustrated with those that refuse to take the leap of faith that we're willing to do, because they're actually on more solid ground.

So while I want KCP to start and Siva to get decent PT, we both have to admit that they will have to show something to dislodge grizzled vets with real records of playing in the NBA.

That's why, IMO, Singler better get active early, or he's going to never see PT on this team... ditto JJ, who really may be an odd man out.
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2013-14 Guard play

Post  deusXango on Fri Sep 20, 2013 1:35 am

Oracle, I have to agree with you that there is no one on this team that I'd want directing the offense, during tight games & crunch time, other than Chauncey Billups; that being said, I don't want him starting or playing extended minutes needlessly, because of his age and fragile physical condition. I think he's much too valuable to the team, experience wise, to recklessly run him out there on the floor just to excite yesterdays fans, today. He's our winning tool.

I don't care who says what, about Jennings game with the Bucks, he's a Piston now, and like him or not, Mo Cheeks is a better coach than he ever had in Milwaukee! Scott Skiles was not in the same class as Cheeks as a player, and a more confrontational coach you won't find (unless you bring Doug Collins back); I'm looking for a better PG here, and that's not the same as expecting a miracle. For the team investment made in obtaining Jennings, he should be our starting PG. He does too many things that none of our other PG's can't/don't do offensively, and that negative observation, that's been over-played, about his ill-advised shots, should be put on hold until we see what he does in a Pistons uniform.

If Ben McLemore had fallen to us (he damn near did) would his potential, as a successful starting SG for us, be constantly questioned, like we're doing with KCP? I mean the only legitimate SG currently on the roster is poo-pooed without setting foot on the court? A lottery pick at that! After all this team has gone through with unsuccessfully playing players out of position, we're still sold on that sh!t? Kyle Singler or Gigi Datome at SG? Come on!!! Those are SF's. Rodney Stuckey (who IMHO should be the first guard off the bench) is not starting SG material, and Chauncey has gone on record stating he doesn't want to play SG, so what's the problem? How quickly some of us forget that we didn't win 30 games, last year, and missed the playoffs for 4 years running, and most importantly, who was a major part of that ignoble decline. Fresh legs, a fresh look, and some "out of the box" strategy, for how we're going to approach building a contender, is where we should be, with the massive overhaul Joe just completed.

Peyton Siva is to be thrown to the wolves at some point, do a tour of the league (to experience the jet lag), and spend some time in the D-League; make him earn the right to sit in a suit behind the Pistons bench, by learning. Bynum is the perfect 11th man, to talk sh!t with Harrellson, and they both cheer the team on.
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Don & DX

Post  Oracle on Thu Sep 19, 2013 10:39 pm

@Don - Firstly, I do think Joe will do the right thing and stay out of Cheeks way, if for no other reason than Cheeks was a bigger player than Joe. Unfortunately Cheeks gave Joe some ammo to use against him with this domestic violence incident!

On the surface it appears to most that this will blow over, and for the most part it will. However, there will be locker room and management repercussions for Cheeks if he makes any additional misteps.

"Jennings has flaws in his game. He is not a superstar yet." - Don

Don, the flaws are real, and there are a lot of them to overcome! I normally don't care too much for Rant Sports, mainly because they, well, rant more than they analyze anything.

However, they've come up with a good analysis of Jennings, and everybody should take a good look, as they say in the article, with our HOPE Glasses off! - Advanced Statistics Portray Poor Image of Brandon Jennings

@DX - I think Wise's analysis is excellent, but remember, his analysis is a starting point, not an end point!

Wise did the logical analysis that can't be escaped, but players have the ability to alter the situation and muscle their way to more PT!

You also have to remember that NBA coaching isn't a risk game! They tend to land on the conservative, well known lineups and play it safe. Players have to force them off of these positions.

Don mentioned that Jennings wasn't guaranteed the start with CB here! Well, that may be a bit of a stretch, but after you look at that article, we well may see CB in there in tight games & crunch time if Jennings doesn't adapt!
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The Numbers Game

Post  deusXango on Thu Sep 19, 2013 10:02 pm

WISEFAN wrote:There are 15 players under contract and I can assure you that Joe as well as the  Mo's coaching staff are all going to have something positive to say about every player.  They have to keep the Sale's Pitch going I understand that but Joe tends to over-state value as well as speak with that infamous Fork Tongue of his.  Not buying KL pitch for Singler
 
Josh, Moose, Dre, Brandon, are virtual locks to start, and you could argue the case for either Chauncey or Rodney at SG.  So you got six players locked in now,  and you include Charlie by virtue of the 8 million owed now we have 7 players lock into the rotation.   Joe would look like the biggest clown if KCP isn't hitting the floor each night ad that give you 8 player's.  
 
Process of elimination leaves us with 7 players Datome, Jebreko, Singler, Siva, Mitchell, Bynum, and Harrellson and of these 7 there are 3 that won't get to dress.   Datome seems like the most logical choice for backing up Josh, and Bynum is the logical choice over Siva solely based on experience. This my friends is likely the 10 man rotation for this season barring any trades.  
 
This leaves us with Singler, Jebreko, Siva, Mitchell, and Harrellson fighting for DPN-CD as the 11th and 12th spots on the roster so which 2 you give that honor to?  In a perfect world you would want to keep Siva oppose to Bynum, a 5th big is almost a must so you want to keep Harrelson, and as I said before don't sleep on Mitchell.  
 
Jebreko and Singler need to be traded because they don't fit!
Wise, my brilliant brother! Finally a realistic breakdown of what our teams rotation will probably look like, but if things turn out exactly this way, it's going to be flawed, and a further waste of time and talent. Everything you've stated makes perfect sense (for the paranoid, fence straddlers) and is the safest way to go, in terms of preserving Joe Dumars job for one more go 'round.

I'm not going to try and pick your great post apart by adding my two cents worth, because it's just the springboard we (I) need going into training camp; I'm hoping that Cheeks runs a fair and square competition for the positions in constant question (starting SG, 6th and 7th man off the bench, and the remaining 2-3 rotation players).

'Sheed has been working his ass off with the big men, trying to prepare them for a competitive training camp, but nothing has been heard on my end about what's being done with our guards and other perimeter players; the only thing I'm getting is the foregone conclusion that either Billups or Stuckey will be starting alongside Jennings when the season starts, without benefit of a competitive training camp.
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Will coach Cheeks do the right thing or will he do what he is told?

Post  cool breeze on Thu Sep 19, 2013 8:26 pm

There is a lot of pressure on Joe Dumars this year. You can expect that he will be in the coaches office a lot suggesting which players should be in the rotation and who should start. It will be a test of the character of Cheeks if he doesn't play the players who play well together. The pressure is no Joe to show that he made a good trade when he gave up on Brandon Knight and picked Jennings as his replacement. The facts do no support that this trade was a good one. I don't believe that Jennings is a good fit for this team or almost any NBA team based on his performances last season. Read the story on Jennings on Rant Sports. Jennings has a habit of hanging on to the ball too long much like Bynum. He was ranked 39th in the league in assist rate and that is horrible because he is a point guard. Bynum was much better. As Rant Sports stated, Jennings likes taking bad shots rather than passing the ball. He wants his stats to look good. And last season with the Bucks, that team played better in almost every category when he was on the bench. No wonder the Bucks are so excited about getting rid of Jennings and stealing Knight from Dumars.

The other hype thing that might not work out for Joe is Datome. It seems that management is building him up to be something special when he has been a minor league player.

KCP is the other player to keep an eye on relating to pressure on the coaching staff. Fans are pissed off that Dumars passed on Burke. How will it look if KCP plays like a typical rookie? Will the coach still play him to appease Joe and let another player sit the bench who might be effective?

Dumars needs to do the right thing and stay out of the coaches office and not make suggestions. He needs to make it clear to Cheeks that he is running the show and Joe will not be a back seat driver. Cheeks is at the end of his career as a coach. He needs to go out as a person we all look up to by doing the right thing and playing the best combinations of players regardless of contracts or pressure relating to the GM's job security.

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Re: FORUM

Post  cool breeze on Thu Sep 19, 2013 7:58 pm

Murph wrote:Wise...I basically agree with your assesment of the rotation.  You make many astute observations.

A couple of things:  I see the majority of the reserve SF minutes going to the winner of the Singler/Datome competition in pre-season.  I'd like to see a good old fashioned open competition for those reserve SF minutes in training camp.  My money's on Singler.

Also, I would sub in Tony Mitchell for Charlie V in your rotation. Charlie's career is going nowhere in Detroit.  It's time to give those minutes to someone with potential.

Other than that, you're spot on.  tb


My money is also on Singler Murph. I know there are still a lot of Duke haters and I assume that posters would have said the same thing about Battier if he had returned to Michigan to play for the Pistons. Datome has not played one minute of ball in the NBA and has not finished a training camp yet and many Piston fans have penciled him in as a key player for this season. He needs to make the adjustment to the speed of the NBA game and show he can defend. Everyone is athletic and a lot of people can make free throws. If Datome can hold his own on defense and hit outside shots consistently, then he will play some minutes. I am not trying to take anything away from Datome but some fans thought Darko would be a key player in his first year before he arrived at training camp with a pack of cigarettes in his shirt pocket and a hang over from going to the strip bars. Everyone is entitled to make their best guess as to how things will pan out but right now talk means nothing. How well have the younger players prepared themselves for this coming season?

This leads me to Jennings where everyone has him being the starter at point guard. Billups said he came here to play point guard. He is still big, strong and smart. He is really worked up getting back to the Palace and he wants to end his career on a good note. I would never count out Billups. Last season Billups had to move to shooting guard because he was playing with Chris Paul the superstar. Jennings has flaws in his game. He is not a superstar yet. I expect the competition to be fierce for all the skill positions. Smith is not a really good small forward. He is a really good power forward. A lot has to be worked out when play begins. It should be exciting because almost anything can happen including injuries. It will be interesting to see who is on the floor in January.

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Wise's Logic...

Post  Oracle on Thu Sep 19, 2013 4:50 pm

WISEFAN wrote:There are 15 players under contract and I can assure you that Joe as well as the  Mo's coaching staff are all going to have something positive to say about every player.  They have to keep the Sale's Pitch going I understand that but Joe tends to over-state value as well as speak with that infamous Fork Tongue of his.  Not buying KL pitch for Singler
 
Josh, Moose, Dre, Brandon, are virtual locks to start, and you could argue the case for either Chauncey or Rodney at SG.  So you got six players locked in now,  and you include Charlie by virtue of the 8 million owed now we have 7 players lock into the rotation.   Joe would look like the biggest clown if KCP isn't hitting the floor each night ad that give you 8 player's.  
 
Process of elimination leaves us with 7 players Datome, Jebreko, Singler, Siva, Mitchell, Bynum, and Harrellson and of these 7 there are 3 that won't get to dress.   Datome seems like the most logical choice for backing up Josh, and Bynum is the logical choice over Siva solely based on experience. This my friends is likely the 10 man rotation for this season barring any trades.  
 
This leaves us with Singler, Jebreko, Siva, Mitchell, and Harrellson fighting for DPN-CD as the 11th and 12th spots on the roster so which 2 you give that honor to?  In a perfect world you would want to keep Siva oppose to Bynum, a 5th big is almost a must so you want to keep Harrelson, and as I said before don't sleep on Mitchell.  
 
Jebreko and Singler need to be traded because they don't fit!
Damn Wise, sometimes I forget how good you are!!!

Excellent analysis, and as Murph said, we may quibble around the edges of this analysis, but the basic form of it is absolutely correct!

This wouldn't be the first time Joe has praised a player and then kicked his arse to the curb Smile
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I Hope Its Not Business As Usual

Post  WTF on Thu Sep 19, 2013 4:40 pm

Go Stones! wrote:
Murph wrote:Wise...I basically agree with your assesment of the rotation.  You make many astute observations.

A couple of things:  I see the majority of the reserve SF minutes going to the winner of the Singler/Datome competition in pre-season.  I'd like to see a good old fashioned open competition for those reserve SF minutes in training camp.  My money's on Singler.

Also, I would sub in Tony Mitchell for Charlie V in your rotation. Charlie's career is going nowhere in Detroit.  It's time to give those minutes to someone with potential.

Other than that, you're spot on.  tb
I saw in an article that PonyTail is considered SF/PF.  I didn't know he could go PF!  If that is true, we could use him for the stretch 4, right?  That leaves CV out on his bum!  

I'd guess that CV will be used a lot right away so as to shop him for an early trade.  The same with Stuckey with the possibility to see if he really sticks to the rotation well or not.  In other words, if Stuckey works well with Cheeks and the rest, we could use him deep into the playoffs.  If not, he is also out on his bum.
At what point does this organization decides to stop erroneously plugging players into position. Datome is a SF and hopefully that where the bulk of his PT comes. Can he play PF perhaps but so can Bynum if you decide to play him there
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thoughts...

Post  Go Stones! on Thu Sep 19, 2013 4:09 pm

Murph wrote:Wise...I basically agree with your assesment of the rotation.  You make many astute observations.

A couple of things:  I see the majority of the reserve SF minutes going to the winner of the Singler/Datome competition in pre-season.  I'd like to see a good old fashioned open competition for those reserve SF minutes in training camp.  My money's on Singler.

Also, I would sub in Tony Mitchell for Charlie V in your rotation. Charlie's career is going nowhere in Detroit.  It's time to give those minutes to someone with potential.

Other than that, you're spot on.  tb
I saw in an article that PonyTail is considered SF/PF. I didn't know he could go PF! If that is true, we could use him for the stretch 4, right? That leaves CV out on his bum!

I'd guess that CV will be used a lot right away so as to shop him for an early trade. The same with Stuckey with the possibility to see if he really sticks to the rotation well or not. In other words, if Stuckey works well with Cheeks and the rest, we could use him deep into the playoffs. If not, he is also out on his bum.
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The Numbers Game

Post  Murph on Thu Sep 19, 2013 7:47 am

Wise...I basically agree with your assesment of the rotation.  You make many astute observations.

A couple of things:  I see the majority of the reserve SF minutes going to the winner of the Singler/Datome competition in pre-season.  I'd like to see a good old fashioned open competition for those reserve SF minutes in training camp.  My money's on Singler.

Also, I would sub in Tony Mitchell for Charlie V in your rotation. Charlie's career is going nowhere in Detroit.  It's time to give those minutes to someone with potential.

Other than that, you're spot on.  tb
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The Numbers Game

Post  WTF on Thu Sep 19, 2013 6:46 am

There are 15 players under contract and I can assure you that Joe as well as the  Mo's coaching staff are all going to have something positive to say about every player.  They have to keep the Sale's Pitch going I understand that but Joe tends to over-state value as well as speak with that infamous Fork Tongue of his.  Not buying KL pitch for Singler
 
Josh, Moose, Dre, Brandon, are virtual locks to start, and you could argue the case for either Chauncey or Rodney at SG.  So you got six players locked in now,  and you include Charlie by virtue of the 8 million owed now we have 7 players lock into the rotation.   Joe would look like the biggest clown if KCP isn't hitting the floor each night ad that give you 8 player's.  
 
Process of elimination leaves us with 7 players Datome, Jebreko, Singler, Siva, Mitchell, Bynum, and Harrellson and of these 7 there are 3 that won't get to dress.   Datome seems like the most logical choice for backing up Josh, and Bynum is the logical choice over Siva solely based on experience. This my friends is likely the 10 man rotation for this season barring any trades.  
 
This leaves us with Singler, Jebreko, Siva, Mitchell, and Harrellson fighting for DPN-CD as the 11th and 12th spots on the roster so which 2 you give that honor to?  In a perfect world you would want to keep Siva oppose to Bynum, a 5th big is almost a must so you want to keep Harrelson, and as I said before don't sleep on Mitchell.  
 
Jebreko and Singler need to be traded because they don't fit!
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