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Sandlot Football

Post  WTF on Sun Sep 22, 2013 4:38 pm

I swear this is what Stafford style of play remind me of. "Just run to the left 10 yards and I'll throw it". He's not even reading the defense or checking down and keep looking in on the primary WR. WTF they should be leading by 21.
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Joe is no idiot...

Post  Oracle on Sun Sep 22, 2013 4:27 pm

"I think Joe complicated things more wen he resigned Bynum after drafting Siva and KCP, and further complicate it when he added Billups. My guess is that he likely thought that not only would he be trading Knight but Stuckey as well." - Wise

There were other circumstances at play!

Joe NEVER planned to trade Knight, he brought Chauncey in to mentor Knight, but Knight pouted and rebelled because he considered himself a true PG and Chauncey was slated to reprise the Jose Calderon role!

Now I do think he may have thought it would have been easier to move Stuckey than it turned out to be! Stuckey is like Jennings, just worse! They are guys that you really don't want on your team because they're chemistry destroyers!

Jennings is younger, so Joe has hope that he can change, but Stuckey is always going to be a tough sell(Don detailed why).

As you said earlier, and it's true, SG's are a dime a dozen, and Stuckey is nothing "Special"! Jennings is, or can be, a "Special" PG, and that's a gamble worth taking!

So I don't see what Joe did with the guards as dumb, but a result of planning things one way and circumstances forced him another!

Stuff happens, but all of this is correctable, so it's not a big deal and certainly not the work of an idiot!

The real question for me is what happens if Stuckey has a good to great year! If Stuckey gets no offers, will Joe try to bring him back, ala Bynum, with a smaller contract?

I like Stuckey, but his time here is over, IMO! He's had his chance, now it's time to give others a shot at making us champions again!
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Re: FORUM

Post  cool breeze on Sun Sep 22, 2013 3:18 pm

WISEFAN wrote:Okay again I'll say this because I hate sounding like I'm defending Stuckey play. But I posted the article where it was Stuckey's decision to go to the bench.  He was not bench for his defensive effort on the court, that decision made based on Stuckey's offense.  

I'm not saying KCP doesn't deserve the opportunity all I'm saying is that he's going to have to play his ass of in camp to beat out Stuckey and for that matter same with Datome beating out Singler.  My feeling I that at the end of preseason  both Stuckey and Datome will come out on top.  

It doesn't matter that Stuckey succeeds because he's motivated in a contract year, if he's better than KCP than he plays.  You and other keep preaching fair chance and opportunity but still think Stuckey doesn't deserve one based on previous seasons.  That doesn't sound open competition to me.  

Cool it sounds as if it doesn't matter if Stuckey comes out on top you feel he shouldn't play.  I can only imagined that if Stuckey putting out 16pts a game and received 6th man honors you'll still want him traded.

LOL! here on one hand you think Singler 1 year experience make him the better choice over Datome, but somehow KCP having no experience is the better choice over Stuckey who going into year 6. No one likes Stuckey's play and attitude the past 3 seasons but lets stop kidding ourselves about what he's capable of and the talent he has.  Fair isn't one-sided Right DX! lol 


Wisefan I for one am still upset relating to Stuckey based on the fact that he has never been a player who showed he cared about the team. If he didn't like the coaches, then he would act like a small child knowing that he would still get paid. It is common for the coaching staff to ask a vet player to come into their office to tell them they are no longer projected to be a starter. They tell the player to tell the media that they have gone to the coach to suggest that it would be better for them to come off the bench for the team. If Stuckey had been a better player than either Knight or Singler based on what they did regarding playing basketball, then Stuckey would have remained a starter. If Stuckey was a key player as a starter and he asked the coach if it would be OK for him to come off the bench, then the coach would have laughed and said NO. Anyone who has been part of a real team would not believe there was any truth to the statement that Stuckey made. And this leads me to this idea. What player in their right mind who really wanted to play would go to the coach and make that suggestion. Hey coach please don't allow me to start because I am so much more valuable coming in off the bench. Would any really good player do that? No good players who could start for many teams do come in off the bench and are really effective for their teams doing that. But those teams have great players who start and that player would love to be a starter. The problem last season was that Stuckey was not effective consistently as a starter or bench player. And my biggest thing with Stuckey is that he decided not to play up to his potential. That kind of player kills team chemistry. Imagine working in your field and you know there are employees who are sandbagging to do as little work as possible. That is what Stuckey did for the last 2 years. And that is why I don't care if he plays well or not. It was up to the GM to get rid of him before this late date. Maybe Stuckey will be a great player this season. Fans should say we don't care Mr. Dumars you failed us again.

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Joe Done Well But Still An Idoit

Post  deusXango on Sun Sep 22, 2013 3:00 pm

Wise, that was very well put, from beginning to end; did you change your diet lately?Smile 
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Joe Done Well But Still An Idoit

Post  WTF on Sun Sep 22, 2013 10:50 am

BTW, knowing that KCP's future here is likely longer than Stuckey's, cuts both ways. On one hand you can say that we should focus on him because he's the future, but on the other, since he's going to be here anyway, we can focus short term on Stuckey and slowly bring him along.- Oracle

This IMO is the likely scenario considering the current make up of the roster unless things change but I think KCP will be given ever fair opportunity in training camp. Stuckey could still very well be traded and we all know something has to give because the Pistons can't or shouldn't go into the season with the number of guards on the roster.

I think Joe complicated things more wen he resigned Bynum after drafting Siva and KCP, and further complicate it when he added Billups. My guess is that he likely thought that not only would he be trading Knight but Stuckey as well.

If Joe keeps Stuckey then it's really not hard to conclude what' going to happen at that SG spot. IMO my opinion Stuckey will either start or get the bulk of backup minutes at SG. There are a few reason why and Oracle mentioned one of them in his post and likely the main reason and that is that like it or not Stuckey is better than KCP in every area except stretching the floor. The second biggest reason it the one posted at the very top. They have no real reason to rush the learning process with him he's hear for the next 4 seasons.

I don't think Cheeks is a puppet, but he will likely rely heavily on veteran and experience because he needs to win more than he needs to teach at this point. But I also trust that if any of the rookies prove to be better than any veteran during training camp he's going to make the right call. KCP - Stuckey, Charlie - Mitchell, and Siva - Bynum are going to be some very close calls. Hate the three vets here all day long but currently all three have the edge and all three rookies are going to have to do some amazing things to beat them out.


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Layin' Low

Post  Oracle on Sun Sep 22, 2013 7:12 am

merc wrote:Just gonna sit back and watch the cards fall... No ideas about who should play X minutes... Not gonna judge rooks vs vets or money spent... eat 
Good point, there're just way too many variables at the starting SG position.

KCP, IMO, is below Stuckey on everything except fit. However fit is defined as the ability to stretch the defense, which we know Stuckey isn't capable of.

So KCP's only hope to start is by draining those 3 pointers that have thus far eluded him, because without that, he's just a loser in a fair competition.

Singler is in the conversation, but not really a contender at SG.

To Merc's point, we simply lack enough information right now to really say what should happen one way or another, but it is fun to speculate.

BTW, knowing that KCP's future here is likely longer than Stuckey's, cuts both ways. On one hand you can say that we should focus on him because he's the future, but on the other, since he's going to be here anyway, we can focus short term on Stuckey and slowly bring him along.
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Layin' Low

Post  merc on Sun Sep 22, 2013 3:41 am

Just gonna sit back and watch the cards fall... No ideas about who should play X minutes... Not gonna judge rooks vs vets or money spent... eat 
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Let's gather around the campfire for a little real talk

Post  deusXango on Sun Sep 22, 2013 12:27 am

Oracle, you posted the reality of the situation (the way the teams been run under Joe Dumars leadership), when you stated "winning a starting position is almost ALWAYS an exercise in politics rather than someone's actual play;" this fact, more than anything else, is responsible for the opposing discussions on our "new and improved" team.

When you, and others, feel that KCP must do something special to earn the starting SG spot, and he's the only true SG on the team, it's maddening and insane sounding; who is he competing against that he can't outright win the spot from, without being superman, and how does anyone think this demand/expectation is going to "motivate" him to play at his best, when it seems to be a foregone conclusion that KCP won't be our starting SG? The season hasn't started and I'm ready to trade KCP, if the choice is going to be between Billups and Stuckey; neither one of those players should be Pistons 2-3 years from now.

Wise, why do you think anyone wants CV and Stuckey, other than us? If they had minimum value as expiring contracts, a team like Toronto could do more with them than us (they're certain to be in the lottery of 2014, and they could use the CAP relief then also), but they outright rejected a trade proposal for Rudy Gay and his ridiculous contract, that's running for two more years, and Gay is not as good as the combined talent of CV and Stuckey, supposedly. In the last four years I haven't heard one rumor where any franchise had any interest, in trading for Stuckey, with all this latent talent he has. No one wanted CV before we signed him, so his value is a moot point.

"Monroe spent the better part of the past 2 season coasting so bad people began wondering if he peaked and needed to be traded."-Wise
If the production of Monroe, for the last couple of years, was "coasting" then we've got an undeniable All-Star on our hands; any big man that can coast up on those type numbers will be a monster with the frontline he'll be a part of this year! The real talk about this young man is, his immaturity leaked out a little, and it was mirrored on the court; say what you will, but Vernon Macklin was a better fit, to play alongside Monroe two years ago, like Drummond should have been paired up with him early in the season last year. He didn't openly rebel against Lil' Larry's ludicrous decision to leave him on an island all by himself, by being paired with Maxiell, and receiving all the scrutiny and criticism for the lack of interior competitive play, but neither did he play his best. I keep in mind that Greg Monroe is a highly intelligent basketball mind, and he realized that the coach/GM could have made his life in the paint #1 easier, and #2 more productive, but didn't.

Don, you and I are a little too passionate for most on this subject, and I for one am going to stand back and see how things play out; is it truly a new day, or is it business as usual? Will we play politics, or will we play players? Will the best, most talented 9-10 players be in the rotation, and the best five (at their respective positions) be allowed to begin developing chemistry, by starting and playing together from day one? Has Cheeks learned anything about coaching since his last assignment in the head chair, or is he the latest puppet of Joe Dumars? Will Dumars finish what he started this year (assembling a playoff team), or will he stand pat (which he does best) on this unfinished product? Will we play to keep up, or will we play to win...every night!!

Our thoughts and feelings are a matter of record...all of us...and by mid-season we revisit this and see who has changed their tune. Fair enough?
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Re: FORUM

Post  WTF on Sat Sep 21, 2013 6:49 pm

deusXango wrote:I tried my best to stay out of the "should we dump Stuckey" debate, honestly I did, but the spin doctors were getting the upper hand in this nonsensical exchange, and that'll never do!!As I jump into the fray, my first swing at lunacy is the fact that Stuckey said he was taking Brandon Knight "under his wing," to teach him to be a better PG; where is Knight now? He was being vilified before he left, and his departure was cheered by many; thanks Mr. Stuckey. While on the subject of trading Knight, he was traded at the age of Stuckey when we drafted him, and six years later we're still wishing and hoping that he "comes in motivated" and plays a more inspired game; sounds more "me" than team. What will be the motivating factor? Why, it's a contract year, of course. Having a player on the team like that just plain sucks.

Wise said that "we all know the talent is there," well I don't. Stuckey hasn't been a fit with any team that's been put together by the Pistons; he never fit with Billups and Hamilton (All-Star guards), nor will he fit with the current group of guards, and the big men won't see the ball once it comes off the glass and is passed out to this clown. What is this special talent he has? Is he a superb outside shot? Does he average 20+ points consistently, from year to year? Does he gain control of the game by controlling the tempo? If he does none of those things, why do he need the ball in his hands to be "effective?" Those cloddish, ugly, ill-advised forays to the basket, that end up with an arrgggh!, and trip to the free throw line is more foolishness than talent. We waited six years for that to be corrected, so what's so magical about this seventh season?

There is no comparing a #8 pick against a #15 pick, unless you're high off something; KCP was rated in the same class as Ben McLemore, and Victor Oladipo going into the draft, and some people on THIS forum were calling for KCP to be drafted by us (we all thought Burke would be gone by #5); I would never put my credibility on Stuckey being a better player or fit for this team than Oladipo or McLemore, but what's being done with KCP is equal to just that!! None of those three have played a NBA game, but I'll say that the two who get an opportunity to play will outperform Stuckey, even with his motivation this year.

I said it a long time ago that if Stuckey wasn't traded before the seasons start, Joe wasn't doing his job; Stuckey is no more than an albatross to hamstring a coach with. That's been his M.O. since he's been a Piston, and that's an inescapable fact. He's a failed PG in the way of Billups swan song as a Piston; he's in the way of Siva receiving the time and experience to develop, and currently being used as an excuse to limit KCP's development. The most awful political sham is Cheeks is saying things that make no basketball sense, and may be foolish enough to knuckle under to Joe's demands to feature Stuckey with a group of players who have an intelligence level that will leave Stuckey looking like a babe lost in the woods. Intelligence? I ain't going to discuss his I.Q., because every knowledgeable basketball fan know what he's shown.  
Yeah but every season is a new one and sine you all are screaming fair opportunity I guess that means the likes of Stuckey, CV get to prove their worth in the final year of there contracts. Like it or not the fact is that Joe hasn't moved them thus leaving the possibility that they'll both perform well enough to be traded and in some people ugly nightmares resigned lol 

Some of you are concluding that guys won't get a fair shake but I'm thinking they will it's possible that every player on the team could be potentially better a some point. fact is today KCP isn't until he proves otherwise. IMO I just see Stuckey being the better player.

Now thee was a reason CB was traded and his name is Stuckey, and he at one time proved to be worthy and got much praise from many that post now. It wasn't an illusion, the boy is talented and a beast when motivated, I can't kick Stuckey for his lack of motivation before the most part none of them really were, from Rip, to Prince to Big Ben to Stuckey just naming a few. Monroe spent the better part of the past 2 season coasting so bad people began wondering if he peaked and needed to be traded.

IMO if this was some guard named Joe Blow and not Rodney Stuckey not many of you would have problems with his underachieving stats because many accepted the same thing from Prince for 11 seasons. Everyone had high hopes or Stuckey we all expected better, if this was some other player many would be blaming all the bad coaches but somehow Stuckey has to assume all blame. Still if this was say for instance English averaging 13pt and 4ast would any of you be screaming? likely not. KCP can come in and put up the same numbers and it would be okay sadly this I because of how Joe sold the whole Stuckey thing, Joe's expectation became some of the fans expectation aybe thi is what fueling this spill of him blowing his chances, truth is he never really had any until now.

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Beauty is in the eye....

Post  Oracle on Sat Sep 21, 2013 6:27 pm

WISEFAN wrote:Okay again I'll say this because I hate sounding like I'm defending Stuckey play. But I posted the article where it was Stuckey's decision to go to the bench.  He was not bench for his defensive effort on the court, that decision made based on Stuckey's offense.  

I'm not saying KCP doesn't deserve the opportunity all I'm saying is that he's going to have to play his ass of in camp to beat out Stuckey and for that matter same with Datome beating out Singler.  My feeling I that at the end of preseason  both Stuckey and Datome will come out on top.  

It doesn't matter that Stuckey succeeds because he's motivated in a contract year, if he's better than KCP than he plays.  You and other keep preaching fair chance and opportunity but still think Stuckey doesn't deserve one based on previous seasons.  That doesn't sound open competition to me.  

Cool it sounds as if it doesn't matter if Stuckey comes out on top you feel he shouldn't play.  I can only imagined that if Stuckey putting out 16pts a game and received 6th man honors you'll still want him traded.

LOL! here on one hand you think Singler 1 year experience make him the better choice over Datome, but somehow KCP having no experience is the better choice over Stuckey who going into year 6. No one likes Stuckey's play and attitude the past 3 seasons but lets stop kidding ourselves about what he's capable of and the talent he has.  Fair isn't one-sided Right DX! lol 
I think everyone is entitled to their opinion about who should start and who shouldn't... as long as they defend those positions logically.

IMO, everybody that has thoughts on the subject has stated a case that I can believe, EVEN if I disagree and favor my own!

BTW, I think we all know winning a starting position is almost ALWAYS an exercise in politics rather than someone's actual play barring exceptional circumstances.

So on the issue of KCP, even though I want him to start on day one, the fact is that he's going to do something pretty spectacular to pull that off!

Pony Tail is likely to have an easier route because of his experience! If you watch him on tape, he appears slightly faster and more athletic than Singler, and if the 3's are falling for him, Singler is the loser, IMO.

We're all guessing until Cheeks lays down the law...
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I love a good barroom brawl

Post  deusXango on Sat Sep 21, 2013 6:15 pm

I tried my best to stay out of the "should we dump Stuckey" debate, honestly I did, but the spin doctors were getting the upper hand in this nonsensical exchange, and that'll never do!!As I jump into the fray, my first swing at lunacy is the fact that Stuckey said he was taking Brandon Knight "under his wing," to teach him to be a better PG; where is Knight now? He was being vilified before he left, and his departure was cheered by many; thanks Mr. Stuckey. While on the subject of trading Knight, he was traded at the age of Stuckey when we drafted him, and six years later we're still wishing and hoping that he "comes in motivated" and plays a more inspired game; sounds more "me" than team. What will be the motivating factor? Why, it's a contract year, of course. Having a player on the team like that just plain sucks.

Wise said that "we all know the talent is there," well I don't. Stuckey hasn't been a fit with any team that's been put together by the Pistons; he never fit with Billups and Hamilton (All-Star guards), nor will he fit with the current group of guards, and the big men won't see the ball once it comes off the glass and is passed out to this clown. What is this special talent he has? Is he a superb outside shot? Does he average 20+ points consistently, from year to year? Does he gain control of the game by controlling the tempo? If he does none of those things, why do he need the ball in his hands to be "effective?" Those cloddish, ugly, ill-advised forays to the basket, that end up with an arrgggh!, and trip to the free throw line is more foolishness than talent. We waited six years for that to be corrected, so what's so magical about this seventh season?

There is no comparing a #8 pick against a #15 pick, unless you're high off something; KCP was rated in the same class as Ben McLemore, and Victor Oladipo going into the draft, and some people on THIS forum were calling for KCP to be drafted by us (we all thought Burke would be gone by #5); I would never put my credibility on Stuckey being a better player or fit for this team than Oladipo or McLemore, but what's being done with KCP is equal to just that!! None of those three have played a NBA game, but I'll say that the two who get an opportunity to play will outperform Stuckey, even with his motivation this year.

I said it a long time ago that if Stuckey wasn't traded before the seasons start, Joe wasn't doing his job; Stuckey is no more than an albatross to hamstring a coach with. That's been his M.O. since he's been a Piston, and that's an inescapable fact. He's a failed PG in the way of Billups swan song as a Piston; he's in the way of Siva receiving the time and experience to develop, and currently being used as an excuse to limit KCP's development. The most awful political sham is Cheeks is saying things that make no basketball sense, and may be foolish enough to knuckle under to Joe's demands to feature Stuckey with a group of players who have an intelligence level that will leave Stuckey looking like a babe lost in the woods. Intelligence? I ain't going to discuss his I.Q., because every knowledgeable basketball fan know what he's shown.
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Cool Breeze You're Relentless If Nothing Else

Post  WTF on Sat Sep 21, 2013 5:33 pm

Okay again I'll say this because I hate sounding like I'm defending Stuckey play. But I posted the article where it was Stuckey's decision to go to the bench. He was not bench for his defensive effort on the court, that decision made based on Stuckey's offense.

I'm not saying KCP doesn't deserve the opportunity all I'm saying is that he's going to have to play his ass of in camp to beat out Stuckey and for that matter same with Datome beating out Singler. My feeling I that at the end of preseason both Stuckey and Datome will come out on top.

It doesn't matter that Stuckey succeeds because he's motivated in a contract year, if he's better than KCP than he plays. You and other keep preaching fair chance and opportunity but still think Stuckey doesn't deserve one based on previous seasons. That doesn't sound open competition to me.

Cool it sounds as if it doesn't matter if Stuckey comes out on top you feel he shouldn't play. I can only imagined that if Stuckey putting out 16pts a game and received 6th man honors you'll still want him traded.

LOL! here on one hand you think Singler 1 year experience make him the better choice over Datome, but somehow KCP having no experience is the better choice over Stuckey who going into year 6. No one likes Stuckey's play and attitude the past 3 seasons but lets stop kidding ourselves about what he's capable of and the talent he has. Fair isn't one-sided Right DX! lol 
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The two people who will really help this team prepare any play consistently better during the regular season

Post  cool breeze on Sat Sep 21, 2013 4:59 pm

Billups and Wallace will be key people make no mistake. There are no leaders other than those two guys. Wallace will be effective even though he is no longer a player because he will be at players throats mocking them when they fail to get to their spots relating to all of the big men. He will do that along with showing them personally how to do things the right way. You can bet he will get Monroe's attention on defense and I expect big things out of Greg this year.

Mr. Big Shot won't even have to say a word to get the attention of the skill position players. It will be really interesting how Jennings adapts to Billups strong personality. I know that KCP, Singler and Siva will really grow and enjoy this man being around them. Billups once said in an interview when his Detroit teams were at their peak, that the most important thing that happened before their rise to the top was that all his teammates got together and decided that they would refuse to lose. That is the mindset that has been missing and now this team has two guys who know this game is more mental than physical. Team first over player's stats will be so refreshing again for Piston fans. And of course Cheeks is right on the same page. This team could end up having the best chemistry in many years. This is why I believe that politics will not come into play this season. If guys like Stuckey get on the floor again, then those guys will have to have made some type of pledge to their teammates to gain trust that they are bringing everything they have to help this team win. If Stuckey and others who have not performed up to their potential before do shine, then you can bet that Wallace and Billups had a lot to do with this transformation.

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Re: FORUM

Post  cool breeze on Sat Sep 21, 2013 4:34 pm

WISEFAN wrote:
lemonpen wrote:
WISEFAN wrote:
lemonpen wrote:
WISEFAN wrote:DX,  prototypical SG?   I'm not so sure such a thing exist at that position.  Of all the position the SG seems to be the least defined position.  I can't say that KCP is a prototypical SG no more than I could say that about any SG in the NBA.   That position has been uniquely defined by each individual player over time everyone has played it differently throughout the league even on our Pistons teams.   Personally I think of all the position SG is the one were minimum offensive production really doesn't hurt a team.  SG's are a dime a dozen in this league, some are ball hogs, some are defensive wizards, some simply the glue that holds a team together and then you have your exceptional players like a MJ was, and a Kobe, D-Wade, and so on.  I've seen a  lot of talented SG over time and they were all uniquely different.  

In a perfect world Billups and Stuckey is not even on the roster clearing the path for our #8 selection not only play but start.  But we're not in a perfect world and Joe is faced with a win now type of situation and Cheeks will be pressed to deliver on that.  KCP will have to be clearly the dominate player in training camp to beat out Stuckey and IMO I'm not so sure he can or will if Stuckey is focus this season ad he may very well be.  

As for Billups he's like the ultimate combo guard ever because he was able to convert fully into a PG.  However his play still mimic that of a SG.


KCP wasn't even on most fans radar ad we all collectively said "hmmmmmm" when Joe selected him, I watch him only twice in summer league and wasn't overly impressed or a least not enough to conclude he's better than Stuckey at this point.  

In order to become a starter does Pope have to be a better player than Stuckey, or a better "fit" than Stuckey.
You would have to say fit, I think right now Stuckey's the better player, and could very well be the better fit for at least this season.  Advantage to KCP if the intent is for him to be solely a spot up shooter because this is why Joe drafted him.  But right now overall Stuckey's better but the advantages IMO that makes Stuckey the best fit for the moment is his experience in the NBA,  his experience with the familiar faces remaining on the team.  This is why I say KCP needs to come in to camp shooting lights out in order to un-seed Stuckey or remove all doubt that he is their guy in the rotation.  In other words he need force Joe with his play in preseason to trade Stuckey before the season starts. Some even being the best fit isn't necessarily the right fit.

I highly doubt that in a contract year we'll be looking at an un-motivated Stuckey and only one or two things are going to happen if he is motivated.  Joe will have to decide to trade him or keep him but he cannot bench him he has to play him.

Honestly my hope is that we can get the same production we go out of Hunter and James in 2004, I kind of intrigued with both KCP and Stuckey come off the bench together.  I think Billups should get the start at SG for now

 
You have identified a factor that always raises concern among the fans, and that is playing a less deserving guy for reasons other than getting the best chance to win.  It would be a shame if another rook is stymied for a vet without a future.

 
Sadly perhaps this could end up being the case, I know many are ready to toss the towel in on Stuckey but I say give him every opportunity to either prove or dis-prove right or wrong.   Joe could have ended this thing simply by trading or waiving him and he still has that option.  "However" if Joe goes into the season paying Stuckey to bite on pine at 8 million and the team still lacking a better than serviceable backup at the PF and C position he needs to be fired.  

I hear everyone screaming to sit both Stuckey and CV and be done with. The biggest mistake Joe/Cheeks could make is to not play this players.  As I said in time maybe as soon as next  KCP Mitchel, and Siva will have full run of PT because it's very likely that Bynum, CV, JJ and Stuckey won't be coming back.  

What you are both saying is that politics and strategy will determine who plays rather than who might be the best players for the team. Isn't this old saying that Labron has said many times in his career, "TEAM FIRST", is the only thing a coach or GM should be thinking about. There has to be JUSTICE for a team to succeed. You can't just plant some guy in the lineup because of his contract or trade value. Key team members will lose faith in a GM or coach if they see a GM use influence to plant an inferior player in a rotation and allow a better player to sit the bench. I had a vision last night in a dream where I was playing again and to face both Stuckey and Singler when I was playing offense. There is no doubt in reality that both could shut me down even in my prime very easily but it was clear to me that I would prefer t play against Stuckey. This is why Frank and his coaching staff selected Singler over Stuckey to play the 2 guard last season. No 2 guard wanted to play against Singler. He is so tall and smart on defense. He can close out a spot up shooter because his head is always in the game. Stuckey loses concentration much of the time and has allowed all guards to penetrate and shoot over him. I am not saying Singler should be the starting 2 guard on this team but do believe that he would be a better choice than Stuckey based on past play. The same thing has been said about Stuckey every summer after he signed his first contract. This year Stuckey will have some reason to play harder and be more consistent. Maybe a fire has been set under his ass because this is his contract year, but why is there such an attraction for this man? Why should anything other than actual playing basketball determine where Stuckey ends up either on the floor or the bench. It is obvious that no team has been interested in Stuckey relating to a trade. Other GMs do not trust Stuckey. Why should we? If he plays really well this season and Dumars is foolish enough to give him another contract, why would we expect that he would get an honest effort after he signs that contract? Sorry but I believe that Rodney would go right back to the way he has played up to this training camp. The attitude of I don't care if I start and really don't give a damn about this game, this team or any of the coaches who are at fault for the way Stuckey prepared himself to play. You can get a 2nd chance and a 3rd chance but not a 4th chance unless you are Rodney Stuckey and Joe Dumars is the GM. KCP should be given an honest chance to make the rotation and possibly start this season. Stuckey should have to prove that he is 500% better than KCP based on his play in previous seasons where he starts out strong and fades by December. Then he picks it up a bit in April against tired teams so fans and our GM will think next year will be Stuckey's year. Such drama should not be happening this year. Stuckey should have been gone long ago. But a Mother's love is really powerful. Joe's beast milk is sweet and plentiful. He doesn't want to use his pump so watch out Mr. Cheeks. You will be getting a visitor in your office if you don't choose Joe's son.

I also smell that fear coming from fans that maybe perhaps Stuckey shines this season and Joe becomes tempted to resigned him.  Personally I would love seeing Stuckey get his head right we all know the talent is there.  

I still don't think KCP is anymore the best than I do Stuckey.  You all know Burke was the best fit :-)  

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Re: FORUM

Post  WTF on Sat Sep 21, 2013 3:47 pm

lemonpen wrote:
WISEFAN wrote:
lemonpen wrote:
WISEFAN wrote:DX,  prototypical SG?   I'm not so sure such a thing exist at that position.  Of all the position the SG seems to be the least defined position.  I can't say that KCP is a prototypical SG no more than I could say that about any SG in the NBA.   That position has been uniquely defined by each individual player over time everyone has played it differently throughout the league even on our Pistons teams.   Personally I think of all the position SG is the one were minimum offensive production really doesn't hurt a team.  SG's are a dime a dozen in this league, some are ball hogs, some are defensive wizards, some simply the glue that holds a team together and then you have your exceptional players like a MJ was, and a Kobe, D-Wade, and so on.  I've seen a  lot of talented SG over time and they were all uniquely different.  

In a perfect world Billups and Stuckey is not even on the roster clearing the path for our #8 selection not only play but start.  But we're not in a perfect world and Joe is faced with a win now type of situation and Cheeks will be pressed to deliver on that.  KCP will have to be clearly the dominate player in training camp to beat out Stuckey and IMO I'm not so sure he can or will if Stuckey is focus this season ad he may very well be.  

As for Billups he's like the ultimate combo guard ever because he was able to convert fully into a PG.  However his play still mimic that of a SG.


KCP wasn't even on most fans radar ad we all collectively said "hmmmmmm" when Joe selected him, I watch him only twice in summer league and wasn't overly impressed or a least not enough to conclude he's better than Stuckey at this point.  

In order to become a starter does Pope have to be a better player than Stuckey, or a better "fit" than Stuckey.
You would have to say fit, I think right now Stuckey's the better player, and could very well be the better fit for at least this season.  Advantage to KCP if the intent is for him to be solely a spot up shooter because this is why Joe drafted him.  But right now overall Stuckey's better but the advantages IMO that makes Stuckey the best fit for the moment is his experience in the NBA,  his experience with the familiar faces remaining on the team.  This is why I say KCP needs to come in to camp shooting lights out in order to un-seed Stuckey or remove all doubt that he is their guy in the rotation.  In other words he need force Joe with his play in preseason to trade Stuckey before the season starts. Some even being the best fit isn't necessarily the right fit.

I highly doubt that in a contract year we'll be looking at an un-motivated Stuckey and only one or two things are going to happen if he is motivated.  Joe will have to decide to trade him or keep him but he cannot bench him he has to play him.

Honestly my hope is that we can get the same production we go out of Hunter and James in 2004, I kind of intrigued with both KCP and Stuckey come off the bench together.  I think Billups should get the start at SG for now

 
You have identified a factor that always raises concern among the fans, and that is playing a less deserving guy for reasons other than getting the best chance to win.  It would be a shame if another rook is stymied for a vet without a future.

 
Sadly perhaps this could end up being the case, I know many are ready to toss the towel in on Stuckey but I say give him every opportunity to either prove or dis-prove right or wrong. Joe could have ended this thing simply by trading or waiving him and he still has that option. "However" if Joe goes into the season paying Stuckey to bite on pine at 8 million and the team still lacking a better than serviceable backup at the PF and C position he needs to be fired.

I hear everyone screaming to sit both Stuckey and CV and be done with. The biggest mistake Joe/Cheeks could make is to not play this players. As I said in time maybe as soon as next KCP Mitchel, and Siva will have full run of PT because it's very likely that Bynum, CV, JJ and Stuckey won't be coming back.

I also smell that fear coming from fans that maybe perhaps Stuckey shines this season and Joe becomes tempted to resigned him. Personally I would love seeing Stuckey get his head right we all know the talent is there.

I still don't think KCP is anymore the best than I do Stuckey. You all know Burke was the best fit :-)
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Trouble at the Long Branch

Post  lemonpen on Sat Sep 21, 2013 3:27 pm

WISEFAN wrote:
lemonpen wrote:
WISEFAN wrote:DX,  prototypical SG?   I'm not so sure such a thing exist at that position.  Of all the position the SG seems to be the least defined position.  I can't say that KCP is a prototypical SG no more than I could say that about any SG in the NBA.   That position has been uniquely defined by each individual player over time everyone has played it differently throughout the league even on our Pistons teams.   Personally I think of all the position SG is the one were minimum offensive production really doesn't hurt a team.  SG's are a dime a dozen in this league, some are ball hogs, some are defensive wizards, some simply the glue that holds a team together and then you have your exceptional players like a MJ was, and a Kobe, D-Wade, and so on.  I've seen a  lot of talented SG over time and they were all uniquely different.  

In a perfect world Billups and Stuckey is not even on the roster clearing the path for our #8 selection not only play but start.  But we're not in a perfect world and Joe is faced with a win now type of situation and Cheeks will be pressed to deliver on that.  KCP will have to be clearly the dominate player in training camp to beat out Stuckey and IMO I'm not so sure he can or will if Stuckey is focus this season ad he may very well be.  

As for Billups he's like the ultimate combo guard ever because he was able to convert fully into a PG.  However his play still mimic that of a SG.


KCP wasn't even on most fans radar ad we all collectively said "hmmmmmm" when Joe selected him, I watch him only twice in summer league and wasn't overly impressed or a least not enough to conclude he's better than Stuckey at this point.  

In order to become a starter does Pope have to be a better player than Stuckey, or a better "fit" than Stuckey.
You would have to say fit, I think right now Stuckey's the better player, and could very well be the better fit for at least this season.  Advantage to KCP if the intent is for him to be solely a spot up shooter because this is why Joe drafted him.  But right now overall Stuckey's better but the advantages IMO that makes Stuckey the best fit for the moment is his experience in the NBA,  his experience with the familiar faces remaining on the team.  This is why I say KCP needs to come in to camp shooting lights out in order to un-seed Stuckey or remove all doubt that he is their guy in the rotation.  In other words he need force Joe with his play in preseason to trade Stuckey before the season starts. Some even being the best fit isn't necessarily the right fit.

I highly doubt that in a contract year we'll be looking at an un-motivated Stuckey and only one or two things are going to happen if he is motivated.  Joe will have to decide to trade him or keep him but he cannot bench him he has to play him.

Honestly my hope is that we can get the same production we go out of Hunter and James in 2004, I kind of intrigued with both KCP and Stuckey come off the bench together.  I think Billups should get the start at SG for now

 
You have identified a factor that always raises concern among the fans, and that is playing a less deserving guy for reasons other than getting the best chance to win. It would be a shame if another rook is stymied for a vet without a future.

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Lemonpen

Post  WTF on Sat Sep 21, 2013 1:15 pm

lemonpen wrote:
WISEFAN wrote:DX,  prototypical SG?   I'm not so sure such a thing exist at that position.  Of all the position the SG seems to be the least defined position.  I can't say that KCP is a prototypical SG no more than I could say that about any SG in the NBA.   That position has been uniquely defined by each individual player over time everyone has played it differently throughout the league even on our Pistons teams.   Personally I think of all the position SG is the one were minimum offensive production really doesn't hurt a team.  SG's are a dime a dozen in this league, some are ball hogs, some are defensive wizards, some simply the glue that holds a team together and then you have your exceptional players like a MJ was, and a Kobe, D-Wade, and so on.  I've seen a  lot of talented SG over time and they were all uniquely different.  

In a perfect world Billups and Stuckey is not even on the roster clearing the path for our #8 selection not only play but start.  But we're not in a perfect world and Joe is faced with a win now type of situation and Cheeks will be pressed to deliver on that.  KCP will have to be clearly the dominate player in training camp to beat out Stuckey and IMO I'm not so sure he can or will if Stuckey is focus this season ad he may very well be.  

As for Billups he's like the ultimate combo guard ever because he was able to convert fully into a PG.  However his play still mimic that of a SG.


KCP wasn't even on most fans radar ad we all collectively said "hmmmmmm" when Joe selected him, I watch him only twice in summer league and wasn't overly impressed or a least not enough to conclude he's better than Stuckey at this point.  

In order to become a starter does Pope have to be a better player than Stuckey, or a better "fit" than Stuckey.
You would have to say fit, I think right now Stuckey's the better player, and could very well be the better fit for at least this season. Advantage to KCP if the intent is for him to be solely a spot up shooter because this is why Joe drafted him. But right now overall Stuckey's better but the advantages IMO that makes Stuckey the best fit for the moment is his experience in the NBA, his experience with the familiar faces remaining on the team. This is why I say KCP needs to come in to camp shooting lights out in order to un-seed Stuckey or remove all doubt that he is their guy in the rotation. In other words he need force Joe with his play in preseason to trade Stuckey before the season starts. Some even being the best fit isn't necessarily the right fit.

I highly doubt that in a contract year we'll be looking at an un-motivated Stuckey and only one or two things are going to happen if he is motivated. Joe will have to decide to trade him or keep him but he cannot bench him he has to play him.

Honestly my hope is that we can get the same production we go out of Hunter and James in 2004, I kind of intrigued with both KCP and Stuckey come off the bench together. I think Billups should get the start at SG for now

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"Hoolywood Nights," the uniforms ...

Post  Sebastian on Sat Sep 21, 2013 11:44 am

The Lakers new alternate black uniforms are dope!

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1779126-new-lakers-uniforms-la-unveils-hollywood-nights-for-2013-14-season
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Re: FORUM

Post  lemonpen on Sat Sep 21, 2013 11:20 am

WISEFAN wrote:DX,  prototypical SG?   I'm not so sure such a thing exist at that position.  Of all the position the SG seems to be the least defined position.  I can't say that KCP is a prototypical SG no more than I could say that about any SG in the NBA.   That position has been uniquely defined by each individual player over time everyone has played it differently throughout the league even on our Pistons teams.   Personally I think of all the position SG is the one were minimum offensive production really doesn't hurt a team.  SG's are a dime a dozen in this league, some are ball hogs, some are defensive wizards, some simply the glue that holds a team together and then you have your exceptional players like a MJ was, and a Kobe, D-Wade, and so on.  I've seen a  lot of talented SG over time and they were all uniquely different.  

In a perfect world Billups and Stuckey is not even on the roster clearing the path for our #8 selection not only play but start.  But we're not in a perfect world and Joe is faced with a win now type of situation and Cheeks will be pressed to deliver on that.  KCP will have to be clearly the dominate player in training camp to beat out Stuckey and IMO I'm not so sure he can or will if Stuckey is focus this season ad he may very well be.  

As for Billups he's like the ultimate combo guard ever because he was able to convert fully into a PG.  However his play still mimic that of a SG.


KCP wasn't even on most fans radar ad we all collectively said "hmmmmmm" when Joe selected him, I watch him only twice in summer league and wasn't overly impressed or a least not enough to conclude he's better than Stuckey at this point.  

In order to become a starter does Pope have to be a better player than Stuckey, or a better "fit" than Stuckey.
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Appreciation for the Wise Fan

Post  deusXango on Sat Sep 21, 2013 9:03 am

Wise, I'm thankful you responded with a thoughtful analysis, which prepares me better for how this season may play out, and the wisdom you've been displaying lately can't be dismissed. The gist of my misunderstanding was based on an outdated view of the game.

A prototypical SG, in my mind, is a guard who's at least 6' 5", plays well off the ball, and is an exceptionally gifted outside shooter, who can finish well at the rim; most SG's today seem to play a relentless defensive game and are extremely athletic. I used that flawed formula to bias myself against certain players, which was wrong. Thanks for taking me out of the picture-in-the-picture mentality and sharing with me a much broader, and more realistic view, Wise.
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DX

Post  WTF on Sat Sep 21, 2013 7:52 am

DX, prototypical SG? I'm not so sure such a thing exist at that position. Of all the position the SG seems to be the least defined position. I can't say that KCP is a prototypical SG no more than I could say that about any SG in the NBA. That position has been uniquely defined by each individual player over time everyone has played it differently throughout the league even on our Pistons teams. Personally I think of all the position SG is the one were minimum offensive production really doesn't hurt a team. SG's are a dime a dozen in this league, some are ball hogs, some are defensive wizards, some simply the glue that holds a team together and then you have your exceptional players like a MJ was, and a Kobe, D-Wade, and so on. I've seen a lot of talented SG over time and they were all uniquely different.

In a perfect world Billups and Stuckey is not even on the roster clearing the path for our #8 selection not only play but start. But we're not in a perfect world and Joe is faced with a win now type of situation and Cheeks will be pressed to deliver on that. KCP will have to be clearly the dominate player in training camp to beat out Stuckey and IMO I'm not so sure he can or will if Stuckey is focus this season ad he may very well be.

As for Billups he's like the ultimate combo guard ever because he was able to convert fully into a PG. However his play still mimic that of a SG.

KCP wasn't even on most fans radar ad we all collectively said "hmmmmmm" when Joe selected him, I watch him only twice in summer league and wasn't overly impressed or a least not enough to conclude he's better than Stuckey at this point.

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DX: IMO, it's KCP or a trade

Post  Oracle on Sat Sep 21, 2013 12:15 am

deusXango wrote:
Oracle, did you notice that the Pistons are the only team represented by three positions for SG? Stuckey is a PG (best position played), Singler is a SF (used as a SG out of desperation last year), and KCP our untried rookie SG. No wonder we came in last in that category.

We've spent a lot of time talking about trading this player and that player, but what young, alpha SG could we bring in by way of trade? If we don't have a legit SG starting in the backcourt, who will be a consistent floor spreader for our offense, it may be a long season of frustration.
DX, I'm not really hung up on KCP starting, although I would prefer that he did for the reasons you stated and one more!

My main reason is that I'm looking not only at the SG's in the central, but the SG's in the East, and if we don't get better at that position, we're going to struggle against the Pacers, the Nets, and others including the Bucks!

KCP is going to make mistakes and he's going to look bad some nights and great on others, i.e. he won't be consistent... at first!

However, if we don't get that out of the way early, we can't gel as a team when it really counts! Larry Brown knew this, and he tinkered and lost games in an attempt to "Get it Right"... we need to do the same at this position!

If we had a legitimate SG on the roster I would have a different opinion, but we don't... KCP is it!

So it's either develop KCP or make that trade for a really good SG, which I don't see coming any time soon!
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Re: FORUM

Post  deusXango on Fri Sep 20, 2013 10:56 pm

Oracle wrote:In this article, we rank DEAD LAST in the SG category, and it's a tough one in the Central!

Of course Paul George rules the roost, but surprisingly the Bucks rank 2nd with OJ Mayo as the starter, and Gary Neal from the Spurs coming off the bench!


Brandon Knight is going to have some fire power next to him this coming season, but neither Mayo or Neal scares anybody with their average to poor defensive efforts.

More here: http://lifeondumars.com/2013/09/20/2013-central-division-position-power-ranking-shooting-guard/
Oracle, did you notice that the Pistons are the only team represented by three positions for SG? Stuckey is a PG (best position played), Singler is a SF (used as a SG out of desperation last year), and KCP our untried rookie SG. No wonder we came in last in that category.

We've spent a lot of time talking about trading this player and that player, but what young, alpha SG could we bring in by way of trade? If we don't have a legit SG starting in the backcourt, who will be a consistent floor spreader for our offense, it may be a long season of frustration.
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I don't understand

Post  deusXango on Fri Sep 20, 2013 10:45 pm

Wise, help clear up some confusion I have regarding the pecking order of things; are we looking at the best players, regardless of what position they play (as in the case of Maxiell vs. Drummond), or are we looking at positions that need filling? The reason I ask is because the reasons given for KCP not being in line to start at SG (even though he's a lottery pick and the ONLY prototypical SG on the roster) is because Joe signed Billups, and resigned Bynum, with Stuckey still on the team; all of those players are PG's. In Stuckey's and Bynum's case, poor ass PG's, but PG's none the less, and Billups has said he doesn't favor playing SG. If Bynum can't defend PG's, how is he to survive playing against the SG's in the NBA? Anyone who saw more than a game last year know that Stuckey outright sucked at SG. It seems to me that KCP is our starting SG by default, unless the spot goes to Gigi; that wouldn't be a bad idea, because then Singler could rake in the backup minutes at SF, and we wouldn't be faced with watching the sickening efforts of a backcourt crowded with PG's.

Anyway Wise, you've been knocking 'em out of the park lately, so I'm hoping you straighten this matter out for me. Thanks.
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Don

Post  WTF on Fri Sep 20, 2013 10:09 pm

Here is the final test of truth Wisefan. You have stated in another post I read today that Stuckey for sure will beat out KCP because he is much more experienced and is motivated. If Stuckey is so good, how can Singler be that bad and easily replaced by a Pony Tail guy who has never played a minute of NBA basketball? Singler beat out Stuckey for the starting 2 guard position before moving to the 3 after the Prince trade. And Stuckey sucked playing that 2 guard spot last season. You might be correct that Cheeks could select Stuckey to play either as a starter or off the bench but my bet is that Cheeks will eventually figure out that Stuckey has too many flaws and will see that KCP is a quick learner who might get time on the floor the same way Singler did last season - because he is willing to sacrifice himself on defense. What is in your heart as a player? After watching Stuckey for a long time, I can honestly say, I have no idea. I do know what is in Singler's heart. HE WANTS TO HELP CREATE A WINNING TEAM! THAT IS ALL HE HAS EVER CARED ABOUT SO HE IS NOT LIKELY TO CHANGE. - Cool

Here is your final test Wisefan. If Singler is - Cool


Okay Don you keep dismissing that Datome been playing professionally since 2003 and it really doesn't matter that's in been in Italy. IMHO and I believe I had this discussion once before about the rapidly closing gap in talent between players in the state and overseas player is more smaller than many think. I don't subscribe to this idea of yours that a single year in the NBA makes Singler the better player. There's a reason why college players don't go to the Olympics and NBA Pros do so I don't understand how you and Stone can dismiss Datome as a professional.

However experience does matter when it comes to KCP and Stuckey. One would like to think that when you select a player #8 that they come right in and assume the starting position. Not quite how Joe set the table for KCP wen he decided to bring in Billups, keep Stuckey and resigned Bynum. The situations are different for what Singler has to face and what KCP has to face.

Back to Datome for a minute, also players are far more fundamentally prepared for the NBA coming from overseas. I get it you hate his pony-tail as much as you hated how CV socks look when he runs lol 
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