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FORUM - Page 21 Empty Defending Cheeks??!!

Post  deusXango Wed Jun 05, 2013 6:20 pm

WISEFAN wrote:
deusXango wrote:Let's get real folks, Lionel Hollins is the best, recently proven, available coach out there! He should've moved to the top of the Pistons hire list the day Memphis's season ended. Gores is the one that started talking that sh!t about being ready to spend, well the proof is in the pudding fella; spend whatever it takes to bring in Hollins and do it quick. We need a coaches evaluation of the teams talent before the draft (that's why so many coaching vacancies have been filled already), this would be a valuable tool for Joe Dumars and company when it comes to not only the draft but, pursuing FA's as well.

I love that quip about "low hanging fruit" in describing Mo Cheeks; it fits so well, Oracle.

No one will probably want Hollins, just like there are voices of dissention for signing Josh Smith as a FA (because of what he may receive in a contract), and drafting the BPA with #8. Those seem like simple moves to me, even for Joe, and the team would be greatly improved; improvement and creating a culture of stability is where the Pistons are now, not competing for a championship next year. Hollins, Smith, and a solid draft choice would be a giant step forward. Drummond, Monroe, Knight, Singler, and Middleton as a core to build around would benefit by being coached by Hollins, and with the suggestions that any poster has made on this forum would be so much better than what we saw under Lil' Larry.

The best defense for Mo Cheeks is to leave him alone for the time being; I'd like to see just how serious Gores was about spending money to improve his team. If he was just talking and we don't hire Hollins, then Cheeks, McMillan, Shaw, or Bozo the Clown, it really won't matter.

Okay DX, Here is some real for you. They're all low hanging fruit since none of them are really currently employed with the exception of Shaw and Cheeks. As far as Hollins goes he's the lowest hanging of all the fruit because it's easy to look at the recent success of Memphis and think he can do the same here. Let's not try to turn Monroe, and Drummond into Randolph and Gasol thinking Hollins will get the same out of them.

Randolph was already developed as a player when he arrived in Memphis and to some extent so was Gasol playing professionally with Spain and front yard 1 on 1's with his big brother. Hollins did nothing to help Randolph in that sweep by the Spurs in fact the whole team felled flat on their faces in that series. Trust me it had more to do with coaching so keep in mind Memphis may not want Hollins and IMO both Nate and Cheeks are better coaching choices.
Hello Wise, plucked a cord did I? Answer me this; who has the best coaching record? Who do you honestly feel most comfortable leading the rebuild?
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FORUM - Page 21 Empty PGing

Post  Sparma Wed Jun 05, 2013 6:18 pm

I'll stand by my claim that the transition to becoming a good PG (from the level of a Stuckey or a Knight) in the NBA rarely happens. That's just a fact, as best I know. Why it happens so rarely, I'm not sure, and that's worth debating.

You say it's rarely tried. Maybe part of the reason that's hard for me to believe is that we've been trying and trying ever since drafting Stuckey, then Knight. The Stuckey fiasco began around the time that I remember Dumars holding forth about the new NBA in which positions would be increasingly unimportant. Maybe so, but I think we could have done a favor to Stuckey and Knight by placing them in a definite category with set expectations (keeping them in a box, in your terminology). For me, that box would be "combo guard" with the most effective role being coming off of bench. Work with their existing strengths, trying to extend these, rather than trying to transform them into something they aren't.

My guess is that a lot of PG-ing has to do with spatial sense, speed of recognition of quickly changing situations, social attunement, and a willingness to take on complex problems in the face of repeated failure. Innate capabilities may come into play regarding spatial sense, while early learning factors heavily into the others.

After saying that, it may be surprising that I nevertheless think PG skills are learnable (as you do) to a significant extent. I think the skills and situations would need to be broken down into their component parts. Simulation and repetition would be needed.

Not sure the optimal result of such learning at the NBA level would result in the "rewiring" Goodwill mentioned. More like a carefully crafted imitation.

In addition, I think both Stuckey and Knight might have mental blocks against trying the kind of radical retraining that might work (as in the case of Billups). I have the sense that both practiced hero ball successfully too early (in Stuck's 3rd tier college and Knight's HS) to allow for a radical shift in mindset.

That's where I do think coaching could have an effect.

I'd put the odds of a radical transformation of Stuckey at about 1% and of Knight at around 10%.





Last edited by Sparma on Wed Jun 05, 2013 6:26 pm; edited 1 time in total
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FORUM - Page 21 Empty Don

Post  deusXango Wed Jun 05, 2013 5:56 pm

Don, I couldn't resist that rehab crack but, down to brass tacks. lol
I'm glad that you shared that insight into what Khris Middleton is all about because I personally believe that he's better than all the SG's what're being talked up to be drafted at #8; he's working, like a professional should be, and is cheaper than a #8 lottery pick, even if he was re-signed right now! IMHO Middleton is the answer to compliment any PG the Pistons settle on, be it Knight, Burke, McCollum, or MC-W...his ceiling hasn't been reached by a long shot.

Rodney Stuckey has always been lazy (basketball wise); he's never been accused of being a "gym rat" nor has he participated in any of the elite pro summer leagues around the country (if he did it would have been gladly reported by his adoring media). Stuckey's game had and has many holes he should have been working on filling. At this point he has to go with the addition of any guard being drafted, and the signing of another as a FA. Between Knight and Middleton he no longer has a logical place on the Pistons (only in the mind of the most delusional Stuckey fan).

I, for one, view Andre Drummond as our franchise player for a number of stunning reasons, the most obvious is him being a physical freak, much like LeBron James. His speed, quickness, reflexes, jumping ability, and the athleticism of a perimeter player, packaged inside the body of a defensive lineman is enough, once you consider he's not old enough to buy a pack of cigarettes or a bottle of sealed liquor. This young man has uncommon class for his tender years and a work ethic that he doesn't get credit for. He is fired to excel. This is a rare human being and awesome physical specimen who will do the community proud and get better and better, as time goes on, and lead this team further than any in his draft class will lead their teams, IMHO. I'm not an apologist for Drummond but, last year was a taste of what he meant to this team; Lil' Larry not playing him for extended periods, or allowing him to partner up with Monroe, and the potentially severe injury he suffered that held him out of 22 games shielded him from being seen in the brightest light.

If Lionel Hollins is talking to New Jersey, why not us? Sure, the Nets were a playoff team but, their roster is broken and Hollins can see that; within the next three years it's going to be a mess in Jersey and I don't think Hollins wants to be there for the decline, whereas Detroit is on the rise, and he can see that also. At the end of the day, it's about money and power; Gores should be able to outbid the Russian and the power for a coach is what Lil' Larry is enjoying right now, and that's guarantees. Once hired, it should be understood that the coaching decisions are his and not Joe Dumars to make, i.e. start this player or play that player; absolutely no outside meddling and he should have some say so on team personnel (like ridding Memphis of Rudy Gay because the team wasn't getting its' moneys worth).
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FORUM - Page 21 Empty Piston Powered on Burke

Post  Oracle Wed Jun 05, 2013 5:45 pm

Wise, IMO, this is the mistake people make when drafting!

You can look at a lot of stuff about Burke, the stats don't lie, but the stats don't tell the whole story!

I would pick Burke for the same reason I wanted Carmelo over Darko... I want the WINNER!!!

Winners win, and the stats cant' tell you that! There's something there that's intangible, and that's what Burke has... he's just going to win!

So as much as I think MCW is the BEST fit for our team, if Burke showed up, I don't see how Joe could pass on him, but IMO, I bet he would!
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FORUM - Page 21 Empty Sparma

Post  Oracle Wed Jun 05, 2013 5:37 pm

"On the down side, I worry about the Pistons placing too much emphasis on developing Knight as they search for a coach (in one of the Detroit papers they said something to the effect of both Cheeks and McMillan being able to focus on the "rewiring" needed for Knight at PG. Gulp. That transformation rarely happens.)" - Sparma

You keep saying that, and while it's true, it's true for the wrong reasons!

In fact it's rarely attempted! Generally guys are put into a certain box the day they're drafted, and GM's like Joe always seem to want to buck the trend, but do it poorly!

True PG abilities are 100% learnable, but rarely learnable by the player without training. If Chauncey can be converted, almost anybody can. CB was the prototype of a SG, not a PG, and I doubt he makes the transition without the major intervention of Larry Brown.

So I think it's smart if you see a player with the tools to actually get a coach that will force the transition, rather than doing like Stuckey and hoping the player himself does it! BTW, things with Stuckey could have been better if Joe hadn't assumed Stuckey was so ready he traded the trainer!

Having said all of that, I also think you hedge your bets and draft a true PG and let the competition settle the issue for you!

So what you see as a waste in selecting a coach to improve a position, I see as someone finally getting smart about developing players at a critical position, something we've needed for years. A PG focused coach won't ONLY help Knight!
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FORUM - Page 21 Empty Low hanging fruit

Post  Oracle Wed Jun 05, 2013 5:28 pm

Wise, you're taking that all wrong!

Low hanging fruit means that NOBODY else is interested in that guy as a coach, so there's absolutely no worry he's going anywhere!

McMillian is in demand, Shaw is in demand, Hollins is in STRONG demand!

Cheeks?

We're the only team who's looking at him... don't you find that a bit STRANGE?
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FORUM - Page 21 Empty Piston Powered on Burke

Post  WTF Wed Jun 05, 2013 5:18 pm

Oracle wrote:Could Trey Burke fall to Pistons?
By Dan Feldman • 12:56 pm • June 5, 2013

Chad Ford of ESPN:

Perhaps the shine Burke received from Michigan’s deep tournament run is starting to wear off. Burke’s athletic testing results highlighted what many NBA scouts have feared, that he lacks the lateral quickness usually associated with elite NBA point guards. The Magic and Pelicans are both really interested, but if both go in a different direction, he could slide out of the top 10.

If the Magic pass on Burke at No. 2, he could slip. The next three teams – Wizards (John Wall), Bobcats (Kemba Walker) and Phoenix Suns (Goran Dragic) – have young point guards they seem to like. The Pelicans, picking at No. 6, might take Burke, but Greivis Vasquez had a very good season, and they drafted Austin Rivers and called him a point guard for a reason (though I’m not sure what it is).

I just can’t see the Kings at No. 7 passing on Burke, though I’d be ecstatic if they did.

But Burke falling out of the top 10? He better not get past the Pistons unless they draft Nerlens Noel, Otto Porter, Victor Oladipo or Ben McLemore instead. Unfortunately, I still believe all five of those players will be off the board before Detroit picks.

Let him fall right to us at #8 that's okay with me.
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FORUM - Page 21 Empty Defending Cheeks??!!

Post  WTF Wed Jun 05, 2013 5:13 pm

deusXango wrote:Let's get real folks, Lionel Hollins is the best, recently proven, available coach out there! He should've moved to the top of the Pistons hire list the day Memphis's season ended. Gores is the one that started talking that sh!t about being ready to spend, well the proof is in the pudding fella; spend whatever it takes to bring in Hollins and do it quick. We need a coaches evaluation of the teams talent before the draft (that's why so many coaching vacancies have been filled already), this would be a valuable tool for Joe Dumars and company when it comes to not only the draft but, pursuing FA's as well.

I love that quip about "low hanging fruit" in describing Mo Cheeks; it fits so well, Oracle.

No one will probably want Hollins, just like there are voices of dissention for signing Josh Smith as a FA (because of what he may receive in a contract), and drafting the BPA with #8. Those seem like simple moves to me, even for Joe, and the team would be greatly improved; improvement and creating a culture of stability is where the Pistons are now, not competing for a championship next year. Hollins, Smith, and a solid draft choice would be a giant step forward. Drummond, Monroe, Knight, Singler, and Middleton as a core to build around would benefit by being coached by Hollins, and with the suggestions that any poster has made on this forum would be so much better than what we saw under Lil' Larry.

The best defense for Mo Cheeks is to leave him alone for the time being; I'd like to see just how serious Gores was about spending money to improve his team. If he was just talking and we don't hire Hollins, then Cheeks, McMillan, Shaw, or Bozo the Clown, it really won't matter.

Okay DX, Here is some real for you. They're all low hanging fruit since none of them are really currently employed with the exception of Shaw and Cheeks. As far as Hollins goes he's the lowest hanging of all the fruit because it's easy to look at the recent success of Memphis and think he can do the same here. Let's not try to turn Monroe, and Drummond into Randolph and Gasol thinking Hollins will get the same out of them.

Randolph was already developed as a player when he arrived in Memphis and to some extent so was Gasol playing professionally with Spain and front yard 1 on 1's with his big brother. Hollins did nothing to help Randolph in that sweep by the Spurs in fact the whole team felled flat on their faces in that series. Trust me it had more to do with coaching so keep in mind Memphis may not want Hollins and IMO both Nate and Cheeks are better coaching choices.
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FORUM - Page 21 Empty Cheeks

Post  Sparma Wed Jun 05, 2013 5:12 pm

I'm starting to warm up to the possibility of Cheeks. I confess it's partly because of his gracious intervention during the national anthem fiasco. Also, lin an NBA book of list, he shows up as the 88th greatest player ever (as I remember). Terrific defender and assists guy. Also, I liked him stressing flexibility in working with a roster, rather imposing a preexisting system.

On the down side, I worry about the Pistons placing too much emphasis on developing Knight as they search for a coach (in one of the Detroit papers they said something to the effect of both Cheeks and McMillan being able to focus on the "rewiring" needed for Knight at PG. Gulp. That transformation rarely happens.)

Also, I was struck by the posted study about retread coaches not improving teams, on average. (Too much to hope that Cheeks could be our Casey Stengel, who floundered before going to the Yanks.)

It's not that I'm convinced Cheeks' the best choice; I'd rather take a chance on Shaw, for one. But IF he's hired, I think there's some reason to hope he could do a decent job. I didn't have that sense after the Frank and Kuester hirings.
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FORUM - Page 21 Empty Piston Powered on Burke

Post  Oracle Wed Jun 05, 2013 5:10 pm

Could Trey Burke fall to Pistons?
By Dan Feldman • 12:56 pm • June 5, 2013

Chad Ford of ESPN:

Perhaps the shine Burke received from Michigan’s deep tournament run is starting to wear off. Burke’s athletic testing results highlighted what many NBA scouts have feared, that he lacks the lateral quickness usually associated with elite NBA point guards. The Magic and Pelicans are both really interested, but if both go in a different direction, he could slide out of the top 10.

If the Magic pass on Burke at No. 2, he could slip. The next three teams – Wizards (John Wall), Bobcats (Kemba Walker) and Phoenix Suns (Goran Dragic) – have young point guards they seem to like. The Pelicans, picking at No. 6, might take Burke, but Greivis Vasquez had a very good season, and they drafted Austin Rivers and called him a point guard for a reason (though I’m not sure what it is).

I just can’t see the Kings at No. 7 passing on Burke, though I’d be ecstatic if they did.

But Burke falling out of the top 10? He better not get past the Pistons unless they draft Nerlens Noel, Otto Porter, Victor Oladipo or Ben McLemore instead. Unfortunately, I still believe all five of those players will be off the board before Detroit picks.


Last edited by Oracle on Wed Jun 05, 2013 5:21 pm; edited 1 time in total
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FORUM - Page 21 Empty Rehabilitation

Post  deusXango Wed Jun 05, 2013 4:40 pm

cool breeze wrote:I wanted to thank all of you posters for spending so much time thinking about how to improve the Detroit Pistons. I tell my wife that I am not the only insane person on the planet when it comes to this addiction to the Pistons. Is that a place where I can go for a cure for this addiction?
The Palace of Auburn Hills any January should do it, Don.
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FORUM - Page 21 Empty Re: FORUM

Post  cool breeze Wed Jun 05, 2013 4:13 pm

deusXango wrote:Let's get real folks, Lionel Hollins is the best, recently proven, available coach out there! He should've moved to the top of the Pistons hire list the day Memphis's season ended. Gores is the one that started talking that sh!t about being ready to spend, well the proof is in the pudding fella; spend whatever it takes to bring in Hollins and do it quick. We need a coaches evaluation of the teams talent before the draft (that's why so many coaching vacancies have been filled already), this would be a valuable tool for Joe Dumars and company when it comes to not only the draft but, pursuing FA's as well.

I love that quip about "low hanging fruit" in describing Mo Cheeks; it fits so well, Oracle.

No one will probably want Hollins, just like there are voices of dissention for signing Josh Smith as a FA (because of what he may receive in a contract), and drafting the BPA with #8. Those seem like simple moves to me, even for Joe, and the team would be greatly improved; improvement and creating a culture of stability is where the Pistons are now, not competing for a championship next year. Hollins, Smith, and a solid draft choice would be a giant step forward. Drummond, Monroe, Knight, Singler, and Middleton as a core to build around would benefit by being coached by Hollins, and with the suggestions that any poster has made on this forum would be so much better than what we saw under Lil' Larry.

The best defense for Mo Cheeks is to leave him alone for the time being; I'd like to see just how serious Gores was about spending money to improve his team. If he was just talking and we don't hire Hollins, then Cheeks, McMillan, Shaw, or Bozo the Clown, it really won't matter.

dX are you sure that Memphis is going to be willing to part with Hollins. The players like him. The team has been really successful and they are still on the rise. I can't see Memphis owners not keeping this coach. And I am sure he still wants to coach those players. Now what is interesting relating to Cheeks is this theory that he is a calm guy who might get more out of the young Piston players with this low key attitude. He takes Westbrook under his wing and talks to him calming him down during tense moments. Were those comments made to give us a view of what went on relating to coach-player relationships during the last three coaching hires? Were those coaches high strung in your fact type guys? I can't believe that Frank had the balls to do that. I believe that the last 3 hires by Dumars were what players in my time period called numbers guys. You were always just a number. The coach never really looked at you as a human. You were just a guy who filled a slot. Strategy guys who drew up game plans in their basement at home and never really saw the beauty of the actual game and the players who make the game beautiful. I always detested those coaches and am happy that I had to play for only one of those weasels. I was an assistant coach for one season and had to co exist with a head coach who was like that. He made the game very bland and took all of the fun out of that basketball season for those players. Maybe Cheeks is a different type than the previous 3 head coaches. Curry was a suck up to Joe Dumars who I believe gave some of the bogus advise to convince Dumars to trade Billups for Iverson. "No worry Joe, I can coach the team and be that guy Billups was as well. We don't need him Joe. I can take care of the locker room. After all, I did it as a player". That didn't work as Wallace, Hamilton and Price quickly rejected Curry as a traitor. So Curry might not be a numbers guy, but he is still a weasel kiss ass boot licker and helped that the Detroit Pistons down a dark road. That is my memory of events but my memory might not be correct.

I wanted to thank all of you posters for spending so much time thinking about how to improve the Detroit Pistons. I tell my wife that I am not the only insane person on the planet when it comes to this addiction to the Pistons. Is that a place where I can go for a cure for this addiction?

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FORUM - Page 21 Empty Off topic: scheduling mystery

Post  Sparma Wed Jun 05, 2013 3:54 pm

At the French Open the #2 ranked woman will play #3 in the semis, while #1 will play #5 (who beat #4).

On the men's side, #1 plays #3, while #4 plays #6 (who beat #2).

What accounts for the discrepancy in how the semis are arranged for the men and the women?

#1 Djokovic now plays #3 Nadal in the semis, which should be the finals match, I think, assuming that Nadel would have beaten the #5 (Tsonga) who beat #2 in the quarters. On the women's side we can hope for a #1 (Serena Williams) vs #2 (Sharapova) finals.
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FORUM - Page 21 Empty Drummond the franchise player? Trade for Marion-Mayo

Post  cool breeze Wed Jun 05, 2013 3:46 pm

I see so many posters throw this statement in as if it is written in stone that Drummond is a blooming star. Based on what? Sure he blocked shots which was surprising because none of our other big men even bother to contest shots. But I am worried that fans will be very disappointed in what they see next season with Drummond and then start mocking him. The way I see it, Drummond hasn't proven anything yet. He played in some meaningless games, got in foul trouble a lot and after getting into the rotation started slowing down maybe running a few steps faster than Charlie V. Drummond is so young right now and inexperienced he can go either forward or back to the funk he was in during his horrible year in college where he didn't show a good work ethic. It is good that went to some big men camps. But does he have the mental toughness of a Roy Hibbert? Hibbert is going to rule this league with his work ethic. He gave a great exit interview after the Pacers lost game 7. He is real with himself and knows that he doesn't have it all down yet and works every summer to eliminate a weakness. Welcome to the new NBA. Players are so much smarter these days. The NBA teams are better organized to have things in place for the young guys to help keep them on the right track. There is no question that Drummond has the raw potential to become a solid interior defensive player that the Pistons have missed for so long. But he has a long way to go and it could take several years. So don't get down on him and start placing him in trade ideas like some of you are doing with Knight. Keep the faith and give Drummond some time to grow and hope he keeps going in a positive direction.

How many of you like this idea of Detroit signing Mayo? What bothers me is the fact that he is a very selfish player. Other players are really not fond of playing with him. Does Joe Dumars know that? Mayo sat on the bench in the post season this year. Would we be getting a reject? What was it that made the coaching staff sour so with this guy? Mayo didn't buy in to the team ethic of playing balls to the wall tough defense. His teammates took notice of that. What was the coaching staff going to do? They had to bench him. The devil is in the details as usual. Mayo could be a huge mistake for the Pistons but it seems that Dumars is going after him. Will this be another Gordon-Charlie V thing??????

Some of you smart posters have been supporting this idea for awhile relating to taking on Marion's contract in return for the 13th pick from Dallas. The more I think about it, the more I like it. I have always enjoyed watching Marion play. He is no longer the player he was for Phoenix but the guy is a smart player. Guys like Knight will love playing with him. And the cap space will be sweet next summer. I was just wondering why Dumars wouldn't try to get D.Collison as well. Is it because of Stuckey? I see Collison as the back up point guard who could teach Knight a lot of stuff. He has always kicked the crap out of the Pistons with his dribble penetration and defense. Knight's defense greatly improved this past season. He can defend point guards really well now. And there would be no drop off if Collison were added to the club. I am not sure what kind of money he would cost but right now he is under the radar much like Hinrich was when he moved back to Chicago.

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FORUM - Page 21 Empty Good story about Middleton in BLeacher Report

Post  cool breeze Wed Jun 05, 2013 3:16 pm

This is the stuff I like to read about. What are the players doing this summer to improve? It sure seems as if Middleton has a great attitude being willing to sacrifice the party life to put in the hard work it takes to get better. This guy has some special gifts. It is going to be fun this training camp to see how things play out. Middleton could beat all of the new draftees out of playing time if Detroit drafts a 2 guard. What I like about Middleton is the fact that he has quick feet. I noticed his foot work on defense at the end of the season. He improved a lot in the last 8 weeks of the season which could mean that he will seriously compete for playing time based on his overall game. I think that our young players all seem to get it knowing what their weaknesses are at the moment and are working to eliminate those weaknesses. This is a huge change based on some of the slugs we have watched in previous times. I recall Wilcox who has so many physical gifts but squandered his future because he couldn't get his head on right. Charlie V and Stuckey are the other players who if they had been willing to be real with themselves could be at a much higher level. I hold very little hope that either Charley or Rodney have that drive to improve.

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FORUM - Page 21 Empty Defending Cheeks??!!

Post  deusXango Wed Jun 05, 2013 3:01 pm

Let's get real folks, Lionel Hollins is the best, recently proven, available coach out there! He should've moved to the top of the Pistons hire list the day Memphis's season ended. Gores is the one that started talking that sh!t about being ready to spend, well the proof is in the pudding fella; spend whatever it takes to bring in Hollins and do it quick. We need a coaches evaluation of the teams talent before the draft (that's why so many coaching vacancies have been filled already), this would be a valuable tool for Joe Dumars and company when it comes to not only the draft but, pursuing FA's as well.

I love that quip about "low hanging fruit" in describing Mo Cheeks; it fits so well, Oracle.

No one will probably want Hollins, just like there are voices of dissention for signing Josh Smith as a FA (because of what he may receive in a contract), and drafting the BPA with #8. Those seem like simple moves to me, even for Joe, and the team would be greatly improved; improvement and creating a culture of stability is where the Pistons are now, not competing for a championship next year. Hollins, Smith, and a solid draft choice would be a giant step forward. Drummond, Monroe, Knight, Singler, and Middleton as a core to build around would benefit by being coached by Hollins, and with the suggestions that any poster has made on this forum would be so much better than what we saw under Lil' Larry.

The best defense for Mo Cheeks is to leave him alone for the time being; I'd like to see just how serious Gores was about spending money to improve his team. If he was just talking and we don't hire Hollins, then Cheeks, McMillan, Shaw, or Bozo the Clown, it really won't matter.
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FORUM - Page 21 Empty Defending Cheeks

Post  WTF Wed Jun 05, 2013 9:24 am

Oracle wrote:Wise, I actually like your second defense a lot better!

I'm not totally happy if we hire Cheeks, but I do agree with a lot of what you reminded me about during his tenure.

The reason I won't be totally happy is like I said before, Cheeks is the shot you can always get, so why not look for the best shot, then take the easy to get one?

This isn't a knock on McMillan but when you examine his record as head coach in it's entirety he's really not that much better than Mo Cheeks, if he's better at all and he had slightly better talent on his rosters. The only thing that's giving McMillan better numbers is his coaching tenure (he coached 4 seasons longer) than Cheeks to date.

McMillan had some young talent develop under him as well Roy, Aldridge, Batum and suffered through Oden's battle with injuries as well. So I'm not against hiring him either as head coach of the team but I don't think he's any better than Cheeks. Outside of Gundy they're all pretty much the same.
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FORUM - Page 21 Empty Defending Cheeks

Post  Oracle Wed Jun 05, 2013 9:05 am

Wise, I actually like your second defense a lot better!

I'm not totally happy if we hire Cheeks, but I do agree with a lot of what you reminded me about during his tenure.

The reason I won't be totally happy is like I said before, Cheeks is the shot you can always get, so why not look for the best shot, then take the easy to get one?
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FORUM - Page 21 Empty Defending Cheeks

Post  WTF Wed Jun 05, 2013 8:54 am

Bonzi Wells, Zach Randolph, Iggy, Willie Green, Travis Outlaw, Samuel Dalembert, and Louis Williams all young players who came into their own while being coached under Mo Cheeks. All these players loved Cheeks as head coach. The special thing is he's ability to connect with, motivate and develop young talent which we have plenty of at the moment.

I'm not making excuses for Cheeks just using the opposite reasoning for his record. You have to look at his roster in Portland when half of those guys were on their way out of the league 13-14 years vets and the other half rookies or young players.

Then he was giving the most un-coach-able player in the league in Iverson and an often injured Webber. We should know this since we ended up with both as Pistons.

I guess you use the same justification for his firing in Portland as you would use in the case of Flip being fired here not a bad coach simply not the right fit. He was never really the right fit in Philly other than the Philly Fans loved him as a player and all the years he spent as an assistant coach there.

Just think a deeper look is required than just simply making a conclusion on the record. One thing is for certain is that his accomplishments as head coach far exceeds what we've gotten out of the last three Curry, Kuester and Franks.
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FORUM - Page 21 Empty Defending Cheeks

Post  Oracle Wed Jun 05, 2013 8:05 am

Ok, you can make excuses for any loser, but like I always say, "If you've got to make excuses, why not try to make some excuses for winning"!

On the facts, you answered only Murph's questions, but not mine. You can look at my post again, but here's the gist of it.

What can they possibly think Cheeks could bring to the table?

He's shown NOTHING as a coach, and I mean NOTHING!

So if him coaching Westbrook is his calling card, as an assistant, that's so limited it's ridiculous! While I like BK7, last I checked Drummond was the franchise player, not BK7!

I don't get hiring Cheeks for one second!

BTW, get over Flip! There were a few that just didn't like him, but not liking him and knowing he's the wrong coach for a group of players is not the same thing.

I thought he was a REALLY good coach, but following LB was just too tough, probably for anybody! The team was bigger than the coach, they were full of themselves and didn't respect Flip like they should have.

That's why I thought he wasn't good for us, but in reality he still had great teams, just with no killer instinct.
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FORUM - Page 21 Empty Defending Cheeks

Post  WTF Wed Jun 05, 2013 7:08 am

Cheeks in Philly come on that team was already decline the moment we stole LB from them, there was never any cohesiveness between AI, Webber and Iggy which is why both AI and Webber were sent packing. Hard to blame a coach for a declining roster often injured vets.

The same thing can be said about Cheeks time in Portland because half of that team was on its way out of Portland and they were dysfunctional prior to Cheeks coming there.

I won't moan about McMillan or Cheeks and I wouldn't be bother if they found the right up and coming assistant or gave a guy like Ewing a shot at Monroe and Drummond. It is easy to just look at the record and make the conclusion they're bad or good but you all hated Flip who still holds the best win percentage of all coaches. IMHO Portland and Philly were both bad and good opportunities for him. Good it open the door to a coaching career, bad because of the evironment of both teams.
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FORUM - Page 21 Empty Butt Cheeks...

Post  Oracle Wed Jun 05, 2013 6:39 am

Murph wrote:The thing that's so disturbing about Mo Cheeks' coaching record is that, just like Lil Larry, Mo's teams got progressively worse almost every year.

In Portland, Cheeks took over a very promising and talented Trailblazers team, and by the time he left, they were nick-named the "Jailblazers", their record collapsed, and they eventually had to ship their talent out of town (Rasheed Wallace) at bargain basement prices.

Then Mo took over a 76ers team that appeared to have a lot of talent on their roster also (Iverson, Webber, Iggy). That team got progessively worse almost every year Cheeks was there as well. The 6ers won 43 games under Jim O'brien, the year before Cheeks was hired, to 38 wins, then 35 wins, then 40 wins, and then started off 9-14 the year Cheeeks was fired.

Furthermore, Cheeks has a career regular season record of 284-286 (.498), and a career post season record of 5-11 (.313).

That's not exactly a stellar coaching record. We can do better than Cheeks.

Too bad we didn't snag Mike Woodson two years ago. Um....Mr. Gores?

Ditto!!!

There is nothing about Cheeks that excites me, unless he's McMillian's lead assistant coach!

"The Pistons figure Cheeks might be able to tap into the potential of players like Andre Drummond, Greg Monroe and Brandon Knight and make them more consistent players. If that’s the case, then Cheeks is the right guy. But at age 56, one wonders if he’s too much of a recycled coach to make a difference for Detroit." - RANT Sports

I don't get the 56 year old comment, 56 isn't old in life, and is young in coaching circles!

However, I'm struggling to see how they think or have ANY evidence that Cheeks could help Monroe & Drummond! I'll give him helping Knight, as he was truly one of the great guards in the NBA, but our bigs????

If they pick Cheeks, I really have to wonder about the process of elimination and the coaching search period!

Cheeks is low hanging fruit, cheap and always will be available! Can't we get to the higher branches?

If Cheeks is all we can get, I'd rather take a chance on a bright young assistant or young up and comer, ala Carlisle. IMO, the chances of success are about the same and we could get surprised!
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FORUM - Page 21 Empty Mo

Post  Murph Wed Jun 05, 2013 6:02 am

The thing that's so disturbing about Mo Cheeks' coaching record is that, just like Lil Larry, Mo's teams got progressively worse almost every year.

In Portland, Cheeks took over a very promising and talented Trailblazers team, and by the time he left, they were nick-named the "Jailblazers", their record collapsed, and they eventually had to ship their talent out of town (Rasheed Wallace) at bargain basement prices.

Then Mo took over a 76ers team that appeared to have a lot of talent on their roster also (Iverson, Webber, Iggy). That team got progessively worse almost every year Cheeks was there as well. The 6ers won 43 games under Jim O'brien, the year before Cheeks was hired, to 38 wins, then 35 wins, then 40 wins, and then started off 9-14 the year Cheeeks was fired.

Furthermore, Cheeks has a career regular season record of 284-286 (.498), and a career post season record of 5-11 (.313).

That's not exactly a stellar coaching record. We can do better than Cheeks.

Too bad we didn't snag Mike Woodson two years ago. Um....Mr. Gores?

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FORUM - Page 21 Empty Predictions...let's have a contest...

Post  Oracle Tue Jun 04, 2013 11:59 pm

@Stones: Questions 1-4 are pretty much known quantities, with Calderon being a wild card and dependent on other events, but I hope he's gone, it's time to move on!

Question #5: What position does Joe D draft? Our need is a real PG, and MCW is the perfect compliment to Knight. That combination would be VERY difficult to defend, and if MCW's defense evolves likes Knight's has, we'll have two very good perimeter defenders! However, I don't rule out a big man here, which may signal a run for Calderon.

Question #6: Who specifically does he sign as FA Allen, Smith and nobody else!

Question #7: What coach does he choose? He chooses McMillian, but he gets Cheeks if he can't close the deal!

Question #8: Does a trade this summer involve CV and/or Stuckey? No, and they may be moved in separate deals, but Stuckey is the easier to move and will be gone.

Question #9: Does a trade this summer involve Knight and/or Monroe? No, you don't trade impact players and potential all stars this early!

Question #10: Will there be a draft-day trade by the Pistons? Maybe, but I agree, if it happens, it will likely be nibbling around the edges!

BTW, Good Post, it got us all activated!
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FORUM - Page 21 Empty What about Kentavious Caldwell-Pope with the #8 Pick?

Post  Oracle Tue Jun 04, 2013 11:39 pm

My advice to him is to sue his parents for that first name... Yikes!!!
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FORUM - Page 21 Empty Re: FORUM

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